WEBVTT

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What virtually everybody finds,
including Elon Musk, is the real world

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is just really, really big
and really, really messy.

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>> The AI thing is so interesting, right?

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Because from a technology perspective,
it feels like you can build products

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pretty immediately that are going to win.

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>> Our entire way of doing everything
as humans, we think it's going to change.

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We reinvented the computer and the new

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computer is far better than the one that
we have been building on for the last 50

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or so years. The purpose of building the
dominant venture brand was precisely to

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be able to have the companies be able
to borrow that at the most critical points

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in their development so that the
companies can kind of use our force in

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the world as a slingshot
to basically build their own force.

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>> You cannot join the firm unless you
[music] sign the culture document. If

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you had to pick a thing,
what are you compounding?

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>> Reputation. [music]

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>> We have a very special guest, Pachy
McCormack, who just wrote an excellent

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profile of AS6 and Z. Py,
thanks for coming on the podcast.

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>> Thanks for having me. Kathy, I want
to start by saying thank you for the

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amazing piece. Like it's just like
incredible. Like absolutely incredible.

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So we we we just like really appreciate
all the all the work that you put into

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it because that that was a big one.

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>> Thank you. I I mean I I appreciate
being able to tell this story. It's such a

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cool one and and uh appreciate you know
getting to work with you guys on it.

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>> Everybody welcome to the Ben and Mark
show first of 2026 and we're now getting

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into how the media ecosystem has uh has
changed. We we talked about this great

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great uh TAD friend profile in the New

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Yorker in 2015 that I referenced in the

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piece that that I wrote on A16Z uh
this past week saying that that kind of

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kicked off or was the last kind of point
in an era where uh journalism cared

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about free speech. I think Mark will
do a better job kind of summarizing what

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happened over the past decade. Now
we're at the end of that point. And I was

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asking, you know, to what extent Mark
thinks that he and kind of a few people

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who stood up against this actually kind

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of shifted back to this anarchctic or

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liberated uh view of of the press or
relationship with the media that we have

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now. >> Yeah.
And I was just saying I think you

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could describe what's happening kind
of going forward, the information

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environment being, you know, you could
use kind of three words. You could say

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uncontrolled is maybe the neutral word.

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You could say anarchctic is the negative
word. You could say liberated is the

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positive word. um you know in terms
of freedom of speech, freedom of thought,

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you know, and I say at least in the US,
I think generally on the internet and

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then, you know, we can talk about
what what what what other countries are

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doing, but at least in the US, you know,
we're clearly entering a much more free

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speech world. Um, so I just start
by saying like I don't I don't think I

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should claim any moral heroism at all
here at like at all because you know I

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you know I mean I can I have my own
version of my own story going all the

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way back to [laughter] I turned
one of my claims to I turned

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down the opportunity um at the time
in 1993 to implement censorship in the web

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browser um you know which would have
been a completely different uh and uh

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and and you know very dystopian world.

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So I I don't know maybe I get a little
bit of credit for that but you know I

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think for the last decade like I
was kind of on the same ride as everybody

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else and you know we you know we we you
know I've been on the on the I've been

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on this you know Facebook board since
2007 so I kind of went through the

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entire kind of crazy roller coaster
that that company went through uh over the

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last decade and then you know we've been
involved in in you know lots of these

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companies um you know I was you know
I was an angel investor in Twitter um

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angel investor in LinkedIn you know they
they both you know became kind of key

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parts of the censorship machine um
at certain points and so I I don't want to

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claim like huge moral heroism um I do
think a couple things. One is obviously

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Elon's purchase of of Twitter, you know,
obviously was like a a gigantic turning

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point. Um I also want to give just like
enormous credit to the Substack guys. Um

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you know, and they were very proud
because we were the original investor

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and we're the largest outside investor
in Substack and and you know, I think

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they they did a really really great job
holding the line of freedom of speech

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under and I would tell you under
enormous pressure um uh you know,

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especially a very consistent
and totally principled stant on it.

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>> Yeah, that's right. And they they
got I if you know I don't know if people

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remember this or not but I mean they got
they got really lit up um you know by by

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by a lot of the sort of you know anti-
speech forces for you know I mean the

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whole litany of you know kind
of standard accusations um of of of just

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being absolutely horrible. Um, and yeah,
they they they stuck to their principles

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the whole time. And then they, you know,
you know, at least with Elon acts like

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he's Elon. And so when when when he
wants to go to war with like, you know,

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somebody who's like trying to get him
to censor more, like he does it in a very

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kind of force, you know, public,
visible and forceful way. You know, the

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Substack, you know, Substack's still,
you know, a younger company. Um, and so

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they they don't have that level of kind
of just throw weight in the world yet.

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Um, and so they they have the harder
version of the challenge and they they

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had to fight, you know, a whole bunch of
fights, including, you know, fights that

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aren't even public. um you know to to
to basically keep keep the service with

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high integrity. >> It's a I
think a good place to kind of

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talk about a bunch of the themes that
that we covered in the in the piece. One

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of which is I mean the Substack
investment. I remember at the time I was

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on Substack my career was starting
because of Substack and I still at the

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time thought it was kind of a crazy
investment. Were you thinking about it

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from the perspective of this is going
to be a great returner. This is something

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that is good for the future. Is it a mix
of the two of those things? And then to

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what extent have you allowed Substack
to fight that fight by being on their side

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that they wouldn't have been
able to do if you weren't there?

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>> Yeah. So we say we you know we
never make in you know we never make

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investments for just purely kind
of social or political reasons like so the

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you know the goal the goal obviously
always is as as as sort of fiduciaries

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is to to generate returns and so
you know in the in the in in the main

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business and so we you know we we we
always invest with the intention that

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the company that we invest in you know
has the opportunity to become what we

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call kind of a cornerstone franchise
you know in the industry and an important

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force in the world. Um and you know
I and I we certainly believe that a

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substack of the time and you know we we
believe that more than ever today. So so

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I think that's true but but I also think
I you know I you know I think this is

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kind of the magic in in a lot of what we
do you know at Silicon Valley which is I

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I think the companies in many not
in every case but in many cases the

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companies that become the best version
of themselves also become the most

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successful businesses. Um and and I
think Substack is a great example of

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that and and and Substack is actually
a very very very good example of that

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because if Substack is making its
writer successful then it's making itself

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successful right and so it's it's
got this just like extremely direct

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alignment of interest between it success
and it and its writer success and then

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as a consequence of that if its writers
are successful kind of by definition you

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know those that you know those writers
reader you know readers are successful

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they're getting what they want. Um
and so you know I would say you know there

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were sort of a bunch of reasons we
invested in Substack. Um, you know, one

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was just, you know, we we we fell
in love with, you know, with the guys. Um,

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and, you know, you probably know the guys,
they're easy to fall in love with.

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So, that that was the that was the easy
part. Um, and then, you know, look, I

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had been around, you know, we we had
been around, you know, you know, the web

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going all the way back. And then,
you know, particularly the, you know, the

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kind of golden age of blogging, you know,
was kind of this kind of very, you

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know, special time. Um and you know
you know and and and blogging really you

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know I think you know maybe gets
underestimated because maybe there was

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no single company that kind of got full
credit for it or something but you know

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it really create the phenomenon
of blogging created an enormous amount of

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intellectual content you know uh
that that that basically was not going to

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exist otherwise. Um, and then it it
just, you know, blogging kind of just

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always h it had a series of problems
because there was no single company

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behind it. But, you know, one one of the
problems was bloggers just could it was

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just very hard for bloggers to make money,
right? Um, and so, you know, the

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substack guys basically said, well,
we're, you know, we're going to do that,

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but we're, you know, we solve the
economic model. People are ready to pay

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now for content. Um, and this makes sense.
And then, you know, there was

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this chicken and egg thing right up
front, which was like, well, you know,

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can you really see, you know,
the internet's a wash with content. People

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aren't paying for almost any of it. like
are they really gonna you know you have

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to kind of squint and kind of say okay
are people actually going to pay for any

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of the stuff that they're getting today
and I think the thing that in that case

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that we were that we had faith in was
basically this could be what we call a

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supply driven market um which is right
if you provide the modernization

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capability um then you're going to bring
into existence writers and content that

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don't exist today um and that is going
to create new demand that's not visible

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today and then that demand is going to
come back around and it's going to incent

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so so it was basically a bet that
there's like an entire generation of

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of high quality content that doesn't
exist because the monetization mechanism

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doesn't exist. And that's, you know,
that's certainly what what what Chris

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and his and his partners believe.
And and I think that's that's absolutely

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what's proven out. And so, yeah, I I
think it's it's like a great example of

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founders that like really see a future
that doesn't exist yet. And it's it's

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obvious to them. And unfortunately,
in that case, they were able to uh you

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know, convince us like whenever we
really screw up, it's because there's a

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founder who can see the future and they
come and they sit in our office, they

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tell us what the future is, and we say,
"Yeah, I don't really buy it." [snorts]

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Right? And then for the next 30 years,
you know, we have to read about the, you

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know, glorious success of this thing
as that future actually develops. And like

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that really sucks. Um, and I and I don't
like to talk about those, but I will

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say, you know, Substack is Yeah, maybe
maybe they're just really good at sales,

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but they they they fully convinced us.

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And I'm I'm really thrilled that that
that's what's happening. they were kind

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of ahead of the the kind of change from

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old media to new media in that you know

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as the brand moved from the New York

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Times uh or the Wall Street Journal to

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the actual writers themselves um

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Substack was like a massive enabler
for that and you know they created this

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thing which they call the nonfgeable
writer which is you know like how many

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things in the newspaper could anybody

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write and including AI by the way um and

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you know how much is like truly like
interesting and valuable and they really

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wanted all the truly interesting
and valuable things um to be able to build

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their people to build their own brands
and their own businesses on Substack and

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that that would that that also
turned out to be very true.

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>> Yeah. And that was where you know
Hish in particular right turned out to be

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really critical on their team you
know and and you know he and I had a

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conversation early on this where you
know I was like well you know I don't

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know are these people ever going
to leave their publications? are they ever

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going to actually write content that's
you know like you know what's Upstack

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was gearing up it's when in my view
the press kind of became this kind of

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extreme and negative monoculture and so
I was like all right you got you know

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because he's like you got all these
writers kind of trapped at these places

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and I'm like well are they really
trapped like are they you know are they

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in jail or have they built the jail
like what you know like are and if and if

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they if they leave are they going to be
any different and he's like look if if

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their only option to basically put
food on the table is to work for a

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publication that basically you know
requires them to write a certain way

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then they're going to write that way you
know because they need to pay the bills

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but he that he he basically said,
"I guarantee you that there's a lot of

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these folks, you know, where if if
they had an independent path, they would

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take, you know, they would be thrilled
to be able to, you know, maybe break

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themselves out of jail and they would
be thrilled to, you know, write about

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things, you know, from different angles.

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Um, and and have different takes
on things and, you know, you'd see this

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basically this, you know,
this liberation phenomenon take place, uh,

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where you you'd have actually many
different kinds of voices even coming

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from people where you wouldn't expect it
based on the work that they did for, you

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know, the New York Times or whoever.
And and of course, he was 100% right. You

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can see a world where because it
attracts kind of all of the best writers

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from all of these different places who
can build their own businesses, Substack

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becomes 10 times larger than any of the
media organizations that it replaces. I

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I love the the email that you send to to
Ali at at data bricks Ben where you talk

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about the fact that you know the business
was underelling itself. He was

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under selling the business and it was
going to be 10 times bigger than Oracle.

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So $2 trillion. Yeah. >> I want
to understand like the mechanism

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of that. Like do you think that happens
every generation that the new companies

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are 10 times bigger? Why does that

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happen? Is it just software?

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>> Um yeah. So on that one it was actually

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pretty simple because if you compared

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the onremise software companies to the

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cloud software companies. So compare uh

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people soft to workday or compare uh

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seal software to Salesforce. the cloud

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version was just 10 times bigger >>
and Oracle was kind of the on-remise

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version of data bricks you know kind
of you know rough rough analog you know

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things are different um you know data is

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bigger uh and so forth but if you look

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at like who was going to be the data

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kind of provider in the cloud the the
provider of technology to manage your

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data in the cloud it was going to I mean
I I was very confident data bricks would

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win that and so then if you say well
what's the market size of that. Um, and

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and by the way, you know, when I said
that AI wasn't as big as it is, so I

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think that uh that's helping
my prediction. Um, but you know, like it

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was just clearly going to be 10 times
bigger and I was like, Ali, why are you

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trying to convince this candidate
that you're going to be worth 10 billion?

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Like that's what are you even talking
about? Uh, but you know, Ali is super

00:11:41.040 --> 00:11:46.237
paranoid. [laughter] Uh,
so you know, God bless him. Uh so

00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:49.597
you know those are kinds of things and
look you have to know your entrepreneur.

00:11:49.680 --> 00:11:52.717
I mean I think this is uh you know one

00:11:52.800 --> 00:11:54.477
of the things that I I think Mark does

00:11:54.560 --> 00:11:58.957
very well is like you know that advice

00:11:59.040 --> 00:12:03.117
isn't advice you give to every
entrepreneur. It's you know it was very

00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.277
worked well specifically for him. And I

00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:08.477
think that um

00:12:08.560 --> 00:12:10.717
you know that's always the case like

00:12:10.800 --> 00:12:13.837
it's a very psychological game running a

00:12:13.920 --> 00:12:15.917
company and so you have to kind of tap

00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:18.637
in to that person's particular

00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.757
psychology to um kind of change the

00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:25.677
trajectory of of what the company
is doing into the right direction.

00:12:25.760 --> 00:12:28.557
>> Yeah. I'd also add, you know, Pat on
the Substack point, like I think Substack

00:12:28.640 --> 00:12:31.357
could be like a thousand times the size
of the of the existing like content

00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:34.717
industry, whatever you want to call it,
media news industry. Um, the collective,

00:12:34.800 --> 00:12:37.837
you know, kind of value and and the
reason is because um, and you know,

00:12:37.920 --> 00:12:41.357
you're an example of this yourself. Um,
so you know, my whole life, so I'm like,

00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:44.477
you know, mid mid-50s and so like I I
grew up, you know, when I was a teen,

00:12:44.560 --> 00:12:47.437
you know, kid and teenager, you know,
the the the moral panic of the era was

00:12:47.520 --> 00:12:50.237
television. And it was just this like
endless litany of sort of social

00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:53.357
criticism, you know, from kind of, you
know, fancy people basically saying, you

00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:56.317
know, consumers are, you know, basically
normal people are idiots. They just want

00:12:56.400 --> 00:12:59.357
to sit in front of the boob tube. They
just want to like be couch potatoes. You

00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.797
know, the the line everybody used at the
time was Americans watch six hours of TV

00:13:02.880 --> 00:13:05.997
a day and then you turned on TV and you
just saw this they they have this term,

00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:09.037
the vast wasteland of,
you know, game shows and Yeah.

00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:12.237
>> And it's just like this like very
dystopian kind of thing of just like

00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:15.597
people are just morons. And then you
know the internet version of that is of

00:13:15.680 --> 00:13:19.277
course you know these you know that kind
of moral panic has transferred straight

00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:21.597
over onto the internet in the form
of you know of course you know short form

00:13:21.680 --> 00:13:25.197
videos. Tik Tok um you know people just
want to watch you know these these these

00:13:25.280 --> 00:13:28.077
stupid short form videos and it's just
>> cat playing the piano is the original

00:13:28.160 --> 00:13:31.277
one. Right. >> Yeah. Exactly.
Cat cat videos. By by the

00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:33.917
way I'm an afficionado of cat videos.
I do not look down on cat videos

00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:37.357
whatsoever. AI cat videos are my current
favorite genre of any form of of

00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:40.637
entertainment. So I will >>
the AIAT videos are very good.

00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:42.717
[laughter] >> I will I
will Yes, Ben can confirm. I

00:13:42.800 --> 00:13:45.837
send I send around a lot of AI cat videos.
However, there is an enormous

00:13:45.920 --> 00:13:48.797
market for just like mass media just
for like whatever, you know, for whatever

00:13:48.880 --> 00:13:52.077
game shows or sitcoms or, you know, soap
operas or there modern versions of those

00:13:52.160 --> 00:13:56.557
and there's a giant, you know, mass mass
mass mass media uh market for uh for cat

00:13:56.640 --> 00:14:00.157
videos. But um this goes back to these
this idea of supply driven market. There

00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:03.597
there's also, I think, just like
enormous latent demand for actual smart

00:14:03.680 --> 00:14:08.077
high quality stuff. um and and and
particularly in media and in and in

00:14:08.160 --> 00:14:11.757
every kind of media and and I think
the issue the issue is not lack of demand.

00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:13.437
And I think the issue is lack of supply.

00:14:13.520 --> 00:14:16.957
Um because like this kind of goes back to,
you know, kind of consumer marketing

00:14:17.040 --> 00:14:19.837
101, which is consu people don't know
what they want until it's given to them,

00:14:19.920 --> 00:14:22.877
right? You know, nobody ever asked
for a Macintosh. Nobody ever asked for an

00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:25.917
iPhone. Like you know, these things had
to be designed and built and provided on

00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.957
the supply side before the demand
materialized. And then the demand of

00:14:29.040 --> 00:14:31.677
course turned out to be, you know,
far higher than anybody anybody expected.

00:14:31.760 --> 00:14:35.357
And and I think that that same thing
is is exactly true of media. I think a

00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.517
great early existence proof of this was
the success of long form podcasting. um

00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:42.077
you know which is I remember my early
conversations with some of the early

00:14:42.160 --> 00:14:44.717
long form podcasters and they're like
it's the strangest thing we've ever seen

00:14:44.800 --> 00:14:48.797
cuz everybody tells us that the consumers
have short attention spans but

00:14:48.880 --> 00:14:51.517
you know people are literally watching
three-hour podcast and we get the

00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:53.757
analytics and people are watching all
the way to the end of the three-hour

00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:57.277
podcast and so I view this very much
as like you know this is one of these

00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:59.837
classic markets that's a barbell which
is yeah you have a certain amount of

00:14:59.920 --> 00:15:03.517
whatever just you know whatever uh you
know main you know sort of mainstream

00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:07.357
whatever uh you know filler whatever
on the one side um but you have this

00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:10.877
massive sort of untapped market uh for
high quality content in basically every

00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.557
domain. Um and they're just had you
know and again you know technological

00:15:14.640 --> 00:15:17.917
transformation the the the existing
structure of the media company was a

00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:21.277
structure that was designed for a world
of centralized media. Um you need you

00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:23.597
need a new structure today and you know
of course that that you know that's why

00:15:23.680 --> 00:15:26.797
we're so high on Substack. But yeah when
when we look at Substack it's the exact

00:15:26.880 --> 00:15:29.197
same thing that you were just talking
about with data bricks which is like wow

00:15:29.280 --> 00:15:32.157
this thing could be orders of magnitude

00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:36.477
orders of magnitude multiples um larger
um you know than than anything we've

00:15:36.560 --> 00:15:39.757
seen so far. And I and you know, frankly,
I think we're starting to see that.

00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:42.077
>> So implicit in in
kind of the fund sizes

00:15:42.160 --> 00:15:46.797
that you raise is some kind of view on how
big the future is going to be or how

00:15:46.880 --> 00:15:51.117
much of the world technology is going
to eat over the next decade or so. What

00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:55.277
does 15 billion say about kind of what
the world looks like in a decade and how

00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:59.277
many substacks there are that are much
bigger than whoever they're replacing?

00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:02.157
>> Well, I think that uh

00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:05.917
we reinvented the computer. Um so and

00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:09.917
the new computer is far better than the

00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:11.597
one that we have been kind of building

00:16:11.680 --> 00:16:15.517
on for the last uh 50 or so years. Um

00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:18.157
well really longer than that but 50 in

00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:23.197
earnest and you know so
there is not I mean we talk

00:16:23.280 --> 00:16:26.077
about this all the time in the firm
there's not a problem that we can think

00:16:26.160 --> 00:16:29.517
of that you can't that you won't be able

00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:31.837
to solve with AI. So like almost every

00:16:31.920 --> 00:16:33.997
problem in the world and you

00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:37.837
you know, from uh cancer to transport

00:16:37.920 --> 00:16:42.077
transportation to massive fraud in the US.
You just name a problem in the

00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:44.717
headlines and we're like, "Oh yeah, we

00:16:44.800 --> 00:16:48.637
can solve that." And so, um, it's kind

00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:50.797
of the reinvention of everything. So,

00:16:50.880 --> 00:16:52.877
like all our our entire way of doing

00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:56.237
everything as humans, uh, we think it's

00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.357
going to change. And so,

00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:01.357
you know, I would view it as 15 billion

00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:06.557
to start for us because um there's so
much to do and there's so many things

00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.277
that are going to get built and you
know, like some of it is just timing

00:17:09.360 --> 00:17:11.197
with the entrepreneurs, but we think the

00:17:11.280 --> 00:17:12.557
number of entrepreneurs is going to

00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:16.397
multiply as well. Um because the the e

00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:18.957
kind of the the ease of going from an

00:17:19.040 --> 00:17:23.837
idea to a really fantastic solution um

00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:28.717
and a fantastic product is just going
to be so much simpler because you know one

00:17:28.800 --> 00:17:30.397
of the things that AI is best at of

00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:33.517
course is um kind of building stuff uh

00:17:33.600 --> 00:17:39.437
and uh and so yeah it's just a a very
unique time in kind of the history of

00:17:39.520 --> 00:17:41.997
the world. >> Yeah. Yeah.
the the out body experience

00:17:42.080 --> 00:17:44.877
I have with AI on a regular basis now
is you know it's just like okay I think

00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:47.357
about the way Ben does and then I'm
like all right how might you apply AI to

00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.157
solve yeah for example the fraud scandal
you know the kind of fraud that we're

00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:54.557
seeing play out you know any anything
like that and and it's like oh okay I

00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:57.117
need to think and think about how to how
to have AI solve this and I'm like well

00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:00.877
wait a minute why don't
I ask the AI [laughter]

00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:03.677
right and then I go in there and I'm
like you know da da da how should I do

00:18:03.760 --> 00:18:06.397
this and it's like oh well here it's
obvious how you would do it and here's

00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:09.757
you know the 18 steps that you would
take um and then I tell it well you know

00:18:09.840 --> 00:18:12.477
okay like you know interview me,
you know, interview me on all the open

00:18:12.560 --> 00:18:14.717
questions in the topic, you know, to get
my thoughts on them. And then and then

00:18:14.800 --> 00:18:17.357
it starts, you know, it starts
interrogating me, right? And then I'm

00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.157
like, okay, now give me your point,
you know, and so any it's just like, you

00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.957
know, as you know, like if you had tried
to do that with a normal computer in the

00:18:23.040 --> 00:18:27.597
old days, it' just like stare you,
[laughter] right? Like, so like this is

00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:30.957
really, really, really different.
Um, and then, you know, Py, I think the

00:18:31.040 --> 00:18:34.157
venture lens I would put on this is, um,
you know, in terms of the mechanics of

00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:37.437
venture capital, um, you know, the sort
of classic, you know, venture capital

00:18:37.520 --> 00:18:40.317
triangle is is team, product, and market.
Um and and you're always trying

00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.797
to kind of evaluate all three of those
and people have always had, you know,

00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:45.277
different theories over the years
of which is more important than the others

00:18:45.360 --> 00:18:49.997
and how they how they interact. But
the the the the the thing that basically

00:18:50.080 --> 00:18:53.197
every investor, public market investors,
private investors, the thing that we're

00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:56.557
all trained to do is basically market
sizing like we're, you know, you know,

00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:58.877
for, you know, we're trained to do
technology analysis. We're trained to do

00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.197
like, you know, background checks
on people. And then we're trained to do

00:19:01.280 --> 00:19:04.877
market sizing. Like, you know, okay, how
big is this market? because you know the

00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:07.597
the classic adage right is if you if you
put a huge amount of effort into going

00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.277
after a small market you still get
a small outcome. Um but there's a

00:19:11.360 --> 00:19:14.717
presumption in there which is that you
you you can actually predict market

00:19:14.800 --> 00:19:18.157
sizes on these things and and the problem
with that again is this sort of

00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:21.037
this presumption that you can predict
market sizes based on the dynamics that

00:19:21.120 --> 00:19:25.037
exist in the market today. Um,
but if there's a fundamental change on the

00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:27.917
supply side, if there's if there's
a fundamental breakthrough, a fundamental

00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.597
capability that doesn't exist yet,
you you're not going to be able to

00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.717
accurately model the market size because
you can't you can't see it yet. Like you

00:19:34.800 --> 00:19:37.837
you you've changed one of the major
variables and you you you can't do that.

00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:40.237
And you know, and then you could call
that the leap of faith or whatever, but

00:19:40.320 --> 00:19:42.877
it's like, okay, if you if you make the
change in the supply side, then all of a

00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:46.557
sudden the market gets 10 or 100
or thousand times larger. like you you can

00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:50.077
almost never validate that with math
at the time of the investment, but that's

00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:54.557
the thing that makes the outperformers,
you know, really go. Um, and and I just

00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:57.437
I just think like as as Ben and I kind
of go through our careers, we just see

00:19:57.520 --> 00:20:00.877
more and more examples where the mistake
that we or others make is, oh, this must

00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.477
be, you know, the market for Uber
and Lift must be the market for taxi cabs,

00:20:04.560 --> 00:20:07.437
right? Um, or, you know, the market Yeah.
or or the market for cloud

00:20:07.520 --> 00:20:11.517
software must be the same as the market
for for for on-prem software, right? um

00:20:11.600 --> 00:20:14.557
uh or or the market >> the market
for GPUs must be the market

00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:16.957
for people who like to play games.

00:20:17.040 --> 00:20:20.637
>> Yes, exactly. And we just keep seeing
example after example after example

00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:23.997
where the uh significant enough
technology change, product change on the

00:20:24.080 --> 00:20:27.757
supply side unlocks much larger markets
and I and I think that's going to be I I

00:20:27.840 --> 00:20:30.557
mean think frankly that's going to be
like the single like dominant trend in

00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:33.277
investing for like the next 30 years.
I think that's just going to like

00:20:33.360 --> 00:20:35.597
telescope way out.
>> The AI thing is is so interesting,

00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:38.637
right? cuz from a technology perspective,
it feels like you can build

00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:42.797
products pretty immediately that are
going to win. And then A16Z starts to

00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:45.277
make a lot more sense in that context
where it's like all of these other

00:20:45.360 --> 00:20:47.197
things. It's how do you do go to market?

00:20:47.280 --> 00:20:50.397
How do you do policy? Like how do you
set the conditions for the actual best

00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:53.997
technology to win as quickly as possible?
Like how do you think about

00:20:54.080 --> 00:20:56.237
all the different things that you do
there? And is that the right way to

00:20:56.320 --> 00:20:59.117
think about it that like the best
technology should win and the platform

00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.237
is there to make sure that that happens?

00:21:02.320 --> 00:21:03.357
You know, the way we always thought

00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:08.077
about the firm was um what can a partner

00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.837
do for an entrepreneur that will uh not

00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:16.237
only help them ensure their success but
help them kind of build the company they

00:21:16.320 --> 00:21:18.637
want to build and the way they want
to build it with the people they want to

00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.837
build it with um and the culture that

00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:25.277
they're proud of. And to do that there

00:21:25.360 --> 00:21:29.117
there there's many many pieces and a lot
of it um you know some of it is just

00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:33.517
like very fundamental like can you do
your business in the United States of

00:21:33.600 --> 00:21:37.277
America? Can you do it in the world? And
so that that that's where the the policy

00:21:37.360 --> 00:21:38.957
comes in. It's just like a very basic

00:21:39.040 --> 00:21:42.237
question and looks have a huge interest

00:21:42.320 --> 00:21:44.397
in technology these days. So like it's a

00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:47.437
it's a necessary one. Um, a lot of the

00:21:47.520 --> 00:21:50.637
other things come down to, you know, how

00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:52.317
do you go from being an inventor to

00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:56.797
being a competent CEO and that really uh

00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:01.357
is a confidence game for for lack
of a better word. And that you know, it's

00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.957
very difficult to run an organization
when you don't know what you're doing.

00:22:05.040 --> 00:22:08.877
Uh, which nobody does when they're
an inventor. and you get tremendous amount

00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:11.677
of advice and advice that's often

00:22:11.760 --> 00:22:16.957
extremely bad. Uh and almost the opposite
of what you should be doing. Uh

00:22:17.040 --> 00:22:20.557
and there are very few like the people
who have actually built things don't

00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:24.717
have time to talk to you. They're often
away building things. So you get these

00:22:24.800 --> 00:22:27.197
like advisors and you know Silicon

00:22:27.280 --> 00:22:31.837
Valley people uh who tell you how to run
your company, who to hire, this and that

00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.117
and the other. Um, and then those things
turn out to be wrong and you get into

00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:39.517
this confidence spiral. And so we, you
know, the whole firm is built to put you

00:22:39.600 --> 00:22:41.597
in a kind of a virtuous confidence cycle

00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:43.277
as opposed to a vicious confidence

00:22:43.360 --> 00:22:47.117
cycle. And that means like, oh, I need

00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.357
to call somebody who's hard to get to,

00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.397
like an important CEO or like, you know,

00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:54.477
I've got to recruit a top-end engineer

00:22:54.560 --> 00:22:57.437
or I have to um figure out how to market

00:22:57.520 --> 00:23:00.397
my product or I have to get to somebody

00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.037
uh important in the government. the if I

00:23:03.120 --> 00:23:07.757
can do that, my confidence builds. If I
can't do that, my confidence sinks. And

00:23:07.840 --> 00:23:11.197
so then, you know, once you're
confident, you can make decisions

00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:16.157
faster. You can uh, you know, build the
company more effectively. You can go for

00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:19.437
what you actually want. You can have
confidence that, okay, what I want is

00:23:19.520 --> 00:23:22.957
the right thing as opposed to what
somebody's whispering in my ear, you

00:23:23.040 --> 00:23:25.757
know, who is uh whatever a CEO coach or

00:23:25.840 --> 00:23:28.077
a VC or this or that or the other. And

00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:31.357
so the whole firm is designed to uh kind

00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:34.957
of enable that inventor to become a CEO

00:23:35.040 --> 00:23:37.277
and and and run their own company and

00:23:37.360 --> 00:23:40.557
put their mark not just you know locally

00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:43.917
but in the world uh by being able to

00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:46.397
kind of network to anyone. And so that's

00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.437
that's a lot of what we're about.

00:23:49.520 --> 00:23:52.397
>> Yeah. And I just add the the sort
of macro, you know, kind of outside inland

00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:56.477
on that is it's just like, you know,
we we we we get to work with these, you

00:23:56.560 --> 00:23:59.357
know, super geniuses, but they're
specifically they are super geniuses at

00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.157
building products, building technologies.
Um, you know, to be a

00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:03.597
super genius at building technologies.

00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:05.997
Generally, it requires you to have been
sitting in a lab, you know, in front of

00:24:06.080 --> 00:24:07.757
a screen for, you know, 10 or 20 years.

00:24:07.840 --> 00:24:11.197
Um, you know, they they just they they
have they, you know, these folks are

00:24:11.280 --> 00:24:13.437
fully capable of understanding
everything about the world at large.

00:24:13.520 --> 00:24:16.157
They just haven't they just haven't done
it yet. they just they they just haven't

00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:18.957
been out then they haven't met all
the people and they haven't dealt with all

00:24:19.040 --> 00:24:22.077
the issues in the real world and and
and so that that leads to this kind of

00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:25.197
recurring you know kind of I would say
misimpression sometimes that that the

00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:27.597
people have just like well if you just
if you build the right product you know

00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:31.037
if you build the breakthrough whatever
XYZ widget like it's just the world is

00:24:31.120 --> 00:24:34.077
obviously going to adopt it everybody's
going to use it it's it's just obviously

00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.357
going to you know kind of sweep things
and you know if and basically if if it

00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:39.997
doesn't the answer is the product's not
good enough and you know there's there's

00:24:40.080 --> 00:24:41.997
a little bit of truth to that like
obviously the better the more

00:24:42.080 --> 00:24:44.877
breakthrough the product you know the more
there will just be organic traction

00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:48.477
what virtually everybody finds,
you know, up up to including Elon Musk,

00:24:48.560 --> 00:24:51.757
right? What what what everybody finds
is the real world is just like really

00:24:51.840 --> 00:24:56.637
really big and really really messy,
right? Um and there are, you know, 8

00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:00.077
billion people out there with like
opinions um that are not necessarily,

00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:04.157
you know, your opinions. Um, and you
know, many of them have a real vote as

00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:06.877
to what is going to happen with your
product and with your company, you know,

00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:10.077
including whether anybody buys,
you know, your thing or, you know, all of

00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:12.957
the X factors that kick in, you know,
all the different ways that, you know,

00:25:13.040 --> 00:25:15.677
people are going to come and try to,
you know, what you're doing. Um, or

00:25:15.760 --> 00:25:19.677
or, you know, or maybe even worse than
that, you know, just ignore you, right?

00:25:19.760 --> 00:25:24.157
Um, and so there is this there is this
just there is this really big world out

00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.797
there. It's really complicated.
It's really messy. It's not necessarily in

00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:29.997
favor of new ideas. uh in many cases
it really really doesn't like them and

00:25:30.080 --> 00:25:33.837
wants to reject them. Um and there there
are there's real art and science you

00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.797
know to yeah to to Ben's point
to building the company around the product

00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:40.157
and the founder uh to be able to take
the breakthrough and be able to take it

00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:43.837
successfully into the world. Um, and and
as far as we can tell, like as far as I

00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:47.597
can tell, like that that process
is getting, you know, hairier and more

00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:51.197
complicated over time, right? Uh, it's
not getting easier. It's it seems like

00:25:51.280 --> 00:25:54.237
it's actually getting significantly
harder. Um, and so, yeah, that's that's

00:25:54.320 --> 00:25:57.277
a big part of what the what the firm is
built to do is really help founders, you

00:25:57.360 --> 00:25:59.357
know, work through that.
>> And one of the things that that that

00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:02.477
Mark said in the past, which is really
true, is like, look, as a as an

00:26:02.560 --> 00:26:04.237
inventor, you're looking for power, like

00:26:04.320 --> 00:26:07.837
a power boost. Um, so how do I go from

00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:12.717
little old me with my invention to like
I'm the important company in the space

00:26:12.800 --> 00:26:16.077
in the world. I can build momentum.
I can get the best engineers. I can get

00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:19.917
the, you know, customers faster. And
that that turns into a snowball and I'm

00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:22.237
rolling downhill. And so the whole firm

00:26:22.320 --> 00:26:24.637
is designed as like a very powerful

00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:28.397
entity that you can just tap into and

00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:30.877
you know take our brand, take our

00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.117
connections, take our expertise and

00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.237
become extremely powerful very fast.

00:26:36.320 --> 00:26:39.117
>> Yeah. And by the way, this this this
you know this this is the solution of the

00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:41.677
puzzle that people have had about us for
a long time which is wow. It seems like

00:26:41.760 --> 00:26:44.397
those guys are like you know awfully
promotional. You know they're they're

00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:46.557
you know you know they do all this
marketing stuff. They you know they're

00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:49.357
doing all this politics stuff. You know
they they must be doing this for ego

00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:51.437
reasons. They must be really full
themselves. You know, this must be

00:26:51.520 --> 00:26:54.797
about, you know, >> talk so much
>> They talk so much like the whole

00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:58.317
thing. And at least, you know, and maybe
maybe maybe it's possible possible we

00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.277
talk too much. I'll judge [laughter] that

00:27:01.360 --> 00:27:05.117
>> from time to time maybe. However,

00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:09.357
however, from the beginning, the goal
was to build the do the the purpose of

00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:12.237
building the dominant venture brand
was precisely to be able to have the

00:27:12.320 --> 00:27:14.957
companies be able to borrow that at
at the most critical points in their

00:27:15.040 --> 00:27:18.797
development so that the companies could
could can kind of use use our force in

00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:21.837
the world as a slingshot to basically
build their own force. Um, and and I

00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:23.757
think that's worked really well
and that's why we don't, you know, shrink

00:27:23.840 --> 00:27:25.277
back in a lot of these things.

00:27:25.360 --> 00:27:28.237
>> Yeah, I I want to like just squeeze
something in and then get right back on

00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:31.597
this conversation. Talking too much
is so interesting, but I really love I

00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:34.557
think the thing that impressed me
the most when I started working with the

00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.877
crypto team was seeing never take
the negative in person and like never talk

00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:42.957
on a technology, never talk on a
founder, never talk on a company.

00:27:43.040 --> 00:27:46.237
Like how do you even train for that?
Cuz that really really impressed me.

00:27:46.320 --> 00:27:47.757
>> Well, we train for that.

00:27:47.840 --> 00:27:52.717
>> Yeah, we train for that.
So uh we have a

00:27:52.800 --> 00:27:56.557
culture um that is written culture that

00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.557
you cannot join the firm unless you sign

00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:02.797
uh a document uh the culture document

00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:04.957
and says you will adhere to this culture

00:28:05.040 --> 00:28:07.757
and uh then you must sit through one

00:28:07.840 --> 00:28:10.557
hour with me uh understanding the

00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.437
culture and fundamentally on that you

00:28:13.520 --> 00:28:17.757
know our whole point is if you want to

00:28:17.840 --> 00:28:21.037
do something larger than yourselves
and make the world a better place, we are

00:28:21.120 --> 00:28:24.247
100% for it and we do not care.

00:28:24.330 --> 00:28:27.437
[laughter] Uh, you know,
like if in the moment we

00:28:27.520 --> 00:28:30.717
think you're making a mistake or like
the idea isn't good enough. It doesn't

00:28:30.800 --> 00:28:34.637
matter if we invest in you or don't
invest in you. Um, we're for that. We

00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:36.157
are dream builders. We're not dream

00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:40.157
killers. We're not here to be like the

00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:42.717
analytical smarty pants who makes

00:28:42.800 --> 00:28:44.557
ourselves look smart by making somebody

00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.677
else look stupid. And that's just that's

00:28:47.760 --> 00:28:49.917
fundamental to how we think about the

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:53.757
world. Um so like anybody who's trying

00:28:53.840 --> 00:28:55.517
to push the world forward and make it

00:28:55.600 --> 00:28:58.237
better like whether we agree with their

00:28:58.320 --> 00:29:01.917
method or not like we're for it. And so

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.477
uh you we just ask you to sign up to

00:29:04.560 --> 00:29:06.957
that idea before you ever join.

00:29:07.040 --> 00:29:11.037
>> Katherine said that that uh you know
we believe in the future and bet the firm

00:29:11.120 --> 00:29:13.997
that way was should actually be
the number one uh kind of value in the in

00:29:14.080 --> 00:29:18.157
the culture. By the way, that that
that was Mark's um you know, I I did the

00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:22.877
wording, so I give myself a little
credit, but that was Mark's idea.

00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.757
>> Do you think that should be number
do you think that is number one in in

00:29:25.840 --> 00:29:28.557
practice? Do you think first class
business in a first class way is like if

00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:31.757
you were to rewrite the doc today,
what is the most important thing in the in

00:29:31.840 --> 00:29:33.517
the firm?

00:29:33.600 --> 00:29:35.597
>> Well, look, I mean the culture document

00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:39.357
is seven things that um you know, and

00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.797
the culture is more than that. every
culture is more than seven seven ideas

00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:45.757
and kind of seven sets of behaviors,

00:29:45.840 --> 00:29:48.877
but those are the ones that all seven of

00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.117
them that we really expect everybody to

00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.597
live to. Um, so I I I don't know if I

00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.157
rank them in that sense because they all

00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:58.237
go together. They're part of a single

00:29:58.320 --> 00:30:01.677
thing. So, um, you know, we believe in

00:30:01.760 --> 00:30:05.677
the future means that we believe in the
people who build the future, which means

00:30:05.760 --> 00:30:10.557
we're not going to criticize them,
which means, you know, we're not going to

00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:13.277
we're not going to be on the attack side
of that. We're never going to attack the

00:30:13.360 --> 00:30:16.077
future. We're going to try and make,
you know, there are going to be problems

00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:18.797
with how we build the future, but we're
going to try and make it the best future

00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:21.037
we can. We're not going to try and live

00:30:21.120 --> 00:30:24.477
in the past. Uh, and so that you can't

00:30:24.560 --> 00:30:26.237
do that if you're attacking

00:30:26.320 --> 00:30:31.517
entrepreneurs all the time. You can't
do that if you show up, you know, an hour

00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:34.717
late to meet with somebody who's trying
to build a company. You can't do those

00:30:34.800 --> 00:30:36.957
kinds of things. And so every part of

00:30:37.040 --> 00:30:40.797
the culture, I think, is in support of

00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:42.477
we want to build a better future. Like

00:30:42.560 --> 00:30:45.837
that is that's why we're here.

00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:50.397
>> Haber in his piece firm kind of greater
than fund talks about, you know, a firm

00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:53.277
as something that tries to build
a compounding competitive advantage and he

00:30:53.360 --> 00:30:57.277
points to one thing for Apollo, one
thing for Goldman. If you had to pick a

00:30:57.360 --> 00:31:00.077
thing, what are you compounding? Like
what is the competitive advantage that

00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:01.357
you're that you're building over time?

00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:05.960
Do you think here? >> Reputation.

00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:10.317
>> We Mark and I talked about that from
the day we started the firm. And and by by

00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:13.677
the way, there were times when it was
like, well, we're investing an awful lot

00:31:13.760 --> 00:31:16.157
in reputation. Um, [laughter] and you

00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:19.277
know, it's take a while. Uh, but it is

00:31:19.360 --> 00:31:23.757
that's what we compete on. Like when we
when we talk to an entrepreneur um and

00:31:23.840 --> 00:31:29.197
they're comparing us to another firm,
we say find an entrepreneur that's taken

00:31:29.280 --> 00:31:32.237
investment from both firms. See what
they say. Like that's our answer to

00:31:32.320 --> 00:31:36.077
everything. Uh we we build reputation.

00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:39.677
Every relationship matters. Everybody
who we touch, we try and touch as many

00:31:39.760 --> 00:31:44.077
people as we can and we try and um
represent in the very very best way

00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:46.397
possible to build reputation over time.

00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:50.557
And that compounds and compounds
and compounds across uh entrepreneurs,

00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:52.477
across industries, across sectors,

00:31:52.560 --> 00:31:54.877
across, you know, everybody from you

00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:57.677
know people in the government to uh you

00:31:57.760 --> 00:32:01.277
know people in uh in companies that that

00:32:01.360 --> 00:32:04.557
we don't invest in um anybody who is

00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:06.557
anywhere in the world of technology. We

00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:11.997
want them to know us and we want them to
uh think of us as the best uh firm to do

00:32:12.080 --> 00:32:14.877
business with. >> Yeah.
And then that and then that that

00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:18.317
transfers of course that transfers
from us that transfers to the portfolio

00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:21.437
companies right so which is the goal
of it which is that then as a consequence

00:32:21.520 --> 00:32:24.957
when a when a company takes investment
from us now they they're basically able

00:32:25.040 --> 00:32:28.157
to use our reputation to get themselves
through the through those those those

00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:31.197
you know kind of key growth phases with
you know with with potential customers

00:32:31.280 --> 00:32:34.397
and with recruits and with downstream
investors and with you know regulators

00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:37.117
and with you know all all these
different you know forces in the

00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:41.677
external society. Um, so the the
reputation pays off not just for us, but

00:32:41.760 --> 00:32:44.797
it pays off in the form of uh what our
what our portfolio companies are able to

00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.677
do as a result. >> So having
done this for 16 17 years,

00:32:47.760 --> 00:32:50.797
like are there things about building
and transferring reputation that you've

00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.837
learned that are nonobvious? Cuz to me,
like it would almost seem that it's a

00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:57.197
battery and if you give it to one
company that messes it up, then the

00:32:57.280 --> 00:33:00.397
whole thing kind of falls apart,
but actually it maybe it's like love to be

00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.677
like super cheap, like it just grows the
more you give it. Are there other things

00:33:03.760 --> 00:33:06.157
like that that that you've learned?

00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:09.197
Well, look, I I I do think that that's a

00:33:09.280 --> 00:33:12.477
correct insight in that, you know, one

00:33:12.560 --> 00:33:16.397
mistake is much more powerful than,

00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:19.757
you know, one good deed. Um, so, you

00:33:19.840 --> 00:33:23.757
know, one person being obnoxious uh

00:33:23.840 --> 00:33:27.037
who's in the firm or lying to an
entrepreneur or doing something like

00:33:27.120 --> 00:33:30.077
that is causes much more damage than you

00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:32.717
can do by doing that correctly. Uh, you

00:33:32.800 --> 00:33:36.077
know, five or 10 times. Um, which is why

00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:38.157
you have to be so v vigilant about it.

00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:43.117
Like you you you can't you cannot
tolerate that kind of behavior. [gasps]

00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:48.237
Um, but I I I think that the the thing the

00:33:48.320 --> 00:33:49.757
biggest thing that I've learned is it

00:33:49.840 --> 00:33:53.197
takes a long time to build a reputation.

00:33:53.280 --> 00:33:56.797
Uh, and but once you do it's it's the

00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:00.477
most powerful thing. It really does
compound. Um, and just to give you an

00:34:00.560 --> 00:34:02.557
example, look, when Mark and I raised

00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:05.757
fund one, it was a $300 million fund.

00:34:05.840 --> 00:34:09.437
Um, I think it took about six months to

00:34:09.520 --> 00:34:14.797
raise. Uh, we had

00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:18.797
a lot of meetings. I I can't count how
many meetings. Um, some people did not

00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:23.847
treat us very well, as uh Trump might say.
They didn't treat me well at all.

00:34:23.930 --> 00:34:24.637
[laughter]

00:34:24.720 --> 00:34:28.877
Uh, very badly. Um, and you know, this

00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:30.957
raise, which was $15 billion, when we

00:34:31.040 --> 00:34:33.757
actually raised the fund, I think Mark

00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:38.397
did one AMA and I did one AMA [laughter]
and I don't I don't know that I took

00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:40.717
another meeting on this fund raise. Uh,

00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:42.637
and it was done on the on the

00:34:42.720 --> 00:34:47.517
reputation. And so, um, that's a that's

00:34:47.600 --> 00:34:51.917
a heck of a change, you know, and look,
a lot of not that we don't we talk to

00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:55.517
our investors all the time. I mean,
I've been all around the world uh building

00:34:55.600 --> 00:34:57.597
relationships and so forth, but when we

00:34:57.680 --> 00:35:00.477
came to ask for money, uh it was raised

00:35:00.560 --> 00:35:05.197
entirely on a reputation.
>> I think PY, I think the um the external

00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.237
environment has changed, you know,
enormously. Um and so you know we've

00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:11.437
we've lived this you know as you
have and many others we you know this

00:35:11.520 --> 00:35:14.797
incredible transformation where tech
both is like much much much larger and

00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:18.317
more central now than it was in 2009
when we started but also you know the

00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:23.277
the level of let's just say engagement
on the on the part of the world tech is

00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:26.237
you know the level of intensity
on everything from you know you know

00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:29.677
attacks you know criticism you know
by the way you know completely justifiable

00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:33.517
questions you know impact on society you
know the the the intensity level is you

00:35:33.600 --> 00:35:36.717
know I don't know it's like a I don't
know it's like a thousandx of what it 16

00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.677
years ago. And so I I think you I think
to your question, I think we've we've

00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:43.197
really tried to kind of rise to that on
both sides. Like we're really trying to

00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:46.397
help these, you know, these companies
get to levels of scale that nobody ever

00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:48.797
thought was possible before, but at
the same time, we're trying to help them

00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:50.957
deal with pressures that previous
generations of founders, you know,

00:35:51.040 --> 00:35:52.077
generally didn't have to deal with.

00:35:52.160 --> 00:35:54.877
>> Yeah. >> You seem like
you uniquely maybe with

00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:58.637
anybody that I know have fun taking,
you know, like engaging in these

00:35:58.720 --> 00:36:01.277
conversations and I wrote about it
a little bit in the piece, but like kind

00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:04.397
of stepping outside the situation and
viewing it. I know like what goes on in

00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:07.597
your head in these situations like are
you having as much fun as it looks like?

00:36:07.680 --> 00:36:10.557
Does it take a toll every kind of like
taking the arrows? What does it feel

00:36:10.640 --> 00:36:15.037
like in these? >> Yeah, Ben.
Yeah. Why don't you Yeah, Ben

00:36:15.120 --> 00:36:17.197
will give the rational
response. I'll [laughter]

00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:22.477
>> Yeah, I would say
it's um I mean it gets

00:36:22.560 --> 00:36:23.997
emotional from time to time, right?

00:36:24.080 --> 00:36:27.357
because you you know
what goes into building

00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:32.317
these things. Um and you know
the intentions of the people building them

00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:34.077
and you know like the kind of impact

00:36:34.160 --> 00:36:36.317
they have on the world and then to just

00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:39.517
get like you know and a lot of them are

00:36:39.600 --> 00:36:43.357
the attacks tend to be in the form
of character assassinations and so forth

00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:48.237
and now everybody thinks
Mark's Jewish um [laughter]

00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:51.677
you know just so they can attack him more.
It turns out people love to attack

00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:56.477
Jewish people. Um, so I I
welcome into him into that. Uh,

00:36:56.560 --> 00:37:00.157
>> my new name my new name my new name
Py is in certain political circles Andy uh

00:37:00.240 --> 00:37:05.437
is as uh is um Andy Horowitz because
people think that people think and and

00:37:05.520 --> 00:37:08.557
as French as the internet people think
Andre Horowitz is a Jewish person.

00:37:08.640 --> 00:37:12.397
>> Yeah. >> Um and so [clears
throat] I introduced myself as >> Yes.

00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:15.197
>> I didn't have that in my Twitter bio.
I did have my Twitter bio. My real name is

00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:18.637
Andy is Andy Horowitz but and I
am Jewish but I I took it down.

00:37:18.720 --> 00:37:21.997
>> Yeah. But I I I would say mostly it's

00:37:22.080 --> 00:37:26.637
just like it's an amazing um

00:37:26.720 --> 00:37:28.317
it's just like an amazing thing, an

00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:32.477
amazing privilege uh to kind of be in

00:37:32.560 --> 00:37:35.677
the center of it all. U and you know,

00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:40.157
look, and then the responsibility that
goes with it that you you have to kind

00:37:40.240 --> 00:37:41.677
of try and help drive the world to the

00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:44.957
right answer. Uh,

00:37:45.040 --> 00:37:48.397
but like it's

00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:52.717
I don't know if fun is the right word,
but like it's special. It's like we've

00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.277
gotten to a very special position and I

00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:57.517
think you know both of us try and take

00:37:57.600 --> 00:37:59.917
it as seriously as we can and you look

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:03.117
things happen and we have very very long

00:38:03.200 --> 00:38:06.557
discussions about how we should react to

00:38:06.640 --> 00:38:10.877
certain things um how we should not
react to certain things um what we can

00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:14.877
take a position on what we
shouldn't take a position on

00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:18.957
and you know just to have just to be you
know at this stage of life to be able to

00:38:19.040 --> 00:38:23.277
be talking about that as opposed to um
the things that we had to talk about

00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:25.277
when we were building Netscape or or

00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:28.077
Opsswware. Like it's it's amazing. Uh

00:38:28.160 --> 00:38:30.717
and uh you know, I definitely wouldn't

00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:35.837
trade it. Um and and look, we're we've
been through we've been criticized

00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:40.717
so much at this point that like it
really it bothers interestingly, which I

00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:43.837
never thought I'd see, is it kind of
bothers people inside the firm much more

00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:46.957
than it bothers Mark or me. >> Sure.

00:38:47.040 --> 00:38:49.517
>> And I am just for the record
studying for my bar mitzvah.

00:38:49.600 --> 00:38:52.957
>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah,
the hav Torah. You you need to

00:38:53.040 --> 00:38:54.957
learn your your hop to tropes.

00:38:55.040 --> 00:38:58.957
>> Yeah. [snorts] >> How do
you avoid at this point becoming

00:38:59.040 --> 00:39:03.117
a big company? Like this is becoming
a big organization. How do you avoid being

00:39:03.200 --> 00:39:06.157
a big company? Google wanted to avoid
that like everyone wants to avoid that.

00:39:06.240 --> 00:39:08.797
How do you actually do that?

00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:10.637
>> Yeah. So I think a lot of that is

00:39:10.720 --> 00:39:14.477
organizational design. And I mean it.

00:39:14.560 --> 00:39:19.437
So if you look at the companies that
didn't feel like big companies for a

00:39:19.520 --> 00:39:21.277
long time, they they had very very very

00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:22.957
thoughtful designs of the organization.

00:39:23.040 --> 00:39:26.637
And if you look at the firm um you know

00:39:26.720 --> 00:39:28.957
the crypto group or the infra group or

00:39:29.040 --> 00:39:32.397
the um you know the apps group or the

00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:36.957
American Dynamism group, they they all
feel like small companies and they're

00:39:37.040 --> 00:39:41.437
they're small companies with a kind
of very specific kind of support.

00:39:41.520 --> 00:39:43.677
uh you know in terms of the brand in

00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:48.717
terms of uh fundraising and other
kinds of things. Um but you know the the

00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:52.957
fundraising team is a small group
and so the every and every group is very

00:39:53.040 --> 00:39:55.357
autonomous from every other group like

00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:00.477
uh there's integration points
but they're they're very simple and so you

00:40:00.560 --> 00:40:01.997
know for the most part there's some that

00:40:02.080 --> 00:40:04.397
are more complicated than others. Um,

00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:08.237
and so, you know, that's what makes it,

00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:10.317
you know, the the beauty of a of a small

00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:13.837
place is you can just get it done. The

00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:17.997
beauty of a big place is you're very
powerful. Um, and so we try and kind of

00:40:18.080 --> 00:40:20.157
blend those two. We took a lot. We Mark

00:40:20.240 --> 00:40:23.117
and I borrowed a lot. Um, we early on we

00:40:23.200 --> 00:40:25.917
really studied Huelet Packard. Uh, which

00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:30.877
the the original Huelet Packard before
the computer business kind of swallowed

00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:32.877
the the company was very much like this.

00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:37.437
they had uh they were like a series
of companies inside a company and and

00:40:37.520 --> 00:40:41.517
that's a lot how we are. >> How do
you vet GPS or like it seems like

00:40:41.600 --> 00:40:44.077
you have to put a lot of trust in the
people that are running the different

00:40:44.160 --> 00:40:47.597
teams if the whole thing is reputation
but you need to be able to scale by

00:40:47.680 --> 00:40:50.557
having these kind of decentralized teams.
Is there anything that you do

00:40:50.640 --> 00:40:53.597
there that's that's unique or or weird

00:40:53.680 --> 00:40:58.557
uh that ensures that kind of like
no one group can infect the whole?

00:40:58.640 --> 00:41:00.317
Well, I think look, first of all, in

00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:02.957
order to lead one of those groups, you

00:41:03.040 --> 00:41:08.237
just have to have been here and performed
for a long time. So, that that

00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:11.357
that's kind of the first thing. So,
we just know you extremely well. We're not

00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:12.877
we're not interviewing people for that

00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:14.477
job from the outside. Like, you can't

00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:19.437
get that job from the outside. And then,

00:41:19.520 --> 00:41:21.837
you know, I I would say because our

00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:25.757
culture is so different than other

00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:28.077
venture firms, you know, for for better

00:41:28.160 --> 00:41:30.557
or worse, we're just different that we

00:41:30.640 --> 00:41:33.597
don't hire a lot of outside GPS anymore.

00:41:33.680 --> 00:41:37.277
We generally try to hire people at an

00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:41.517
earlier stage of their career and kind
of grow them into what we do. Um, and

00:41:41.600 --> 00:41:46.157
that's worked much much better for us,
I would say, in general. Although we have

00:41:46.240 --> 00:41:48.397
like all of us came from the outside at

00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:51.277
one point of the original cast.

00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.357
>> That makes sense. Um kind
of winding down here, but Mark, you

00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:58.637
said that uh I think you got at one
point for saying the VC was going to be

00:41:58.720 --> 00:42:02.237
the last job uh in in the world. Uh you

00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:06.477
know, if you if the vision of the future
that you believe is true and this is

00:42:06.560 --> 00:42:10.237
going to be an institution that that lasts
for a century, like what does A16Z

00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:13.197
look like and do a century from now?

00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:16.237
>> Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, I start with I
believe I was misqued. I I believe it

00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.597
was a it was one of these hypothetical
uh thought experiment things that kind

00:42:19.680 --> 00:42:22.957
of got got overly um extrapolated, but I

00:42:23.040 --> 00:42:27.917
guess I shouldn't just defend myself.
Um so I the point of what I was trying to

00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:31.357
get across in that discussion um which
we you know I think if you pull the

00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:34.477
original it's it's a longer form
discussion on it. I is goes back to what

00:42:34.560 --> 00:42:39.197
what Ben said early on which is there
is this repeating pattern in history. I

00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:44.077
mean we we can find examples of it for
sure going back 500 years. Um uh is this

00:42:44.160 --> 00:42:48.797
repeating pattern which is basically
a person with a dream um a person with a

00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:50.877
deep level of domain knowledge um and a

00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:53.197
dream um operating in a domain with

00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:58.157
asymmetric payoff um right with with
risk and reward where you know by the

00:42:58.240 --> 00:43:01.357
way the dream may be wrong like they
may not be able to do the thing um but if

00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:05.037
they can do the thing it will it will
have disproportionately high returns um

00:43:05.120 --> 00:43:09.437
you know the traditional institutional
you know places people go to get support

00:43:09.520 --> 00:43:13.597
and funding you know for the dream you
know for for for for new projects just

00:43:13.680 --> 00:43:17.197
turn it down because you know a bank
can't finance you know a bank a bank

00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:21.197
can't issue a loan against something
with a 50% you know 50% chance of a 10x

00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:24.717
and 50% chance of failure like a bank
just can't underwrite that so a bank

00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:28.317
won't do that big companies you know
for the most part won't do that um uh you

00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:32.397
know almost nobody will do that um
but somebody has a dream and and then you

00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:35.357
know when the dream works and especially
if you can construct a portfolio of

00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:38.237
those dreams and of those people you
know then the expected you know value on

00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:42.797
that is is going to be very high like
like that's a very special thing. Um I

00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:45.997
I've had long conversations with Tyler
Cohen who's very in particular is very

00:43:46.080 --> 00:43:49.597
thoughtful on this and he has a term
forget the exact term they use but it's

00:43:49.680 --> 00:43:54.557
like it's it's like some combination
talent picker project picker um and it's

00:43:54.640 --> 00:43:56.717
it's this thing you know it's like we
were talking about earlier about market

00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:59.997
size it's this thing where like there is
an analytical scientific component to it

00:44:00.080 --> 00:44:03.277
but there's also like an art to it
and there's there there's some intangible

00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:06.317
because you're you're dealing with human
beings at a very kind of primordial

00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:09.357
level you know kind of you know kind
of very early in the process of doing

00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:10.877
something that hasn't been done before.

00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:14.557
Um, and you know, quite honestly, like,
you know, an early example of this was,

00:44:14.640 --> 00:44:17.517
you know, Queen Isabella with Christopher
Columbus, right? Um, and I I

00:44:17.600 --> 00:44:21.357
was just like I was just I was trying
to picture the pitch, right? You know,

00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:23.357
Christopher Columbus rolls in, right?

00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:25.757
And he's like, you know, all right,
you know, here's, you know, I'm going to

00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:28.077
find a new rout, you know, route to India.
By the way, you know, there's

00:44:28.160 --> 00:44:31.117
like a I don't know, whatever 50 60%
chance that, you know, you'll never hear

00:44:31.200 --> 00:44:34.877
from me again. Um, and you know,
you know, you know, maybe maybe I've, you

00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:37.197
know, died 2,000 miles away from Spain.

00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:39.837
Maybe I, by the way, maybe I just like
ran away with money. It's not like they

00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:41.517
had Interpol in those days. >> Yeah.

00:44:41.600 --> 00:44:43.517
>> Um and I'm going
to go do that. And then

00:44:43.600 --> 00:44:47.997
and then by the way, the fact that that
bet paid off, but like that that like it

00:44:48.080 --> 00:44:49.917
>> the whole idea was wrong. >> Yeah.

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:51.357
>> But the whole the whole idea was wrong.

00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:53.197
I mean, the whole idea was wrong.
He discovered a completely different

00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:55.677
continent and he himself did not believe
that he had discovered a completely

00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:58.717
different continent. >> Right.
Um and I don't even know that

00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:01.837
Spain was the main beneficiary of that
in the long run, right? Like and so like

00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:05.677
but like you know like she
funded it and like wow, right?

00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:09.917
>> And then there's there's >> Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Yes, they they did

00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.637
they did find some gold. They're very
similar story by the way the Puritans

00:45:12.720 --> 00:45:15.677
have a you know the Plymouth Rock
that whole thing the Mayflower they have a

00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:19.677
very similar story uh to that it took I
think 20 years to raise the financing uh

00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:23.277
to be able to make the uh make the
Mayflower expedition um and they needed

00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:26.237
they needed you know backers like
that you know we always talk now about in

00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:29.757
venture industry you know the whaling
industry 400 years ago um you know

00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:32.637
operated in a very similar way the the
movie industry has always worked this

00:45:32.720 --> 00:45:35.197
way the book publishing industry
has always worked this way by the way

00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:38.317
politics has always you know worked
political campaigns worked this way that

00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:41.917
you know any any any new you know future
president starts out as a long shot,

00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:44.797
somebody bets on them. And so there
there's there's this intangible that has

00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:48.077
to do with making making these longdated
bets with very uncertain outcomes and

00:45:48.160 --> 00:45:52.157
with high failure rates. And I mean like
if yes, like I think what I said in the

00:45:52.240 --> 00:45:54.877
original interview is like look, if we
can have AI do that, like God bless like

00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:58.637
I'm going to like I'm going to hit the
beach and like it's all good. Um but you

00:45:58.720 --> 00:46:03.037
know, uh like I guess maybe makes
a falling flame. See, Ben, what you think

00:46:03.120 --> 00:46:06.237
of this? The intangibles seem to be
becoming more important, not less

00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:10.317
important over time. um it seems to be
becoming more like an art and less like

00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:12.637
a science as we go.
Would you agree with that?

00:46:12.720 --> 00:46:13.997
>> I I definitely think that's right

00:46:14.080 --> 00:46:19.437
because uh history um is a bad guide. Uh

00:46:19.520 --> 00:46:23.837
so you can't like the the the
interesting thing about VC for me

00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:27.357
probably the biggest lesson is you
got to be very careful about a highly

00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:31.437
trained neural net. Um because that's
when you make the mistakes because

00:46:31.520 --> 00:46:35.757
things change and I would say things
have changed more rapidly. Like the

00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:37.357
thing that we never thought would ever

00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:39.677
ever ever go away is a mythical man

00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:45.317
month. Um you know nine women can't have
a baby in a month. Well with AI you can

00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:50.477
[laughter] um you know with >> software
>> it's a metaphor for software.

00:46:50.560 --> 00:46:51.917
>> It's a metaphor for software. Yes.

00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:55.997
Exactly. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Uh so
in the old days, right, like no matter how

00:46:56.080 --> 00:46:59.837
many engineers you put on a team, you
still what you know more engineers would

00:46:59.920 --> 00:47:03.997
actually slow down the project
as opposed to speed it up. But now uh so

00:47:04.080 --> 00:47:06.477
you couldn't throw money at a problem.

00:47:06.560 --> 00:47:10.557
You couldn't throw money at somebody's
technological lead. You'd have to do

00:47:10.640 --> 00:47:12.477
something different. Um now you can

00:47:12.560 --> 00:47:17.917
throw money at it. Uh you know, Elon did
an amazing job of throwing money um at

00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:21.117
the foundation model problem and he
caught up very very fast. And that's

00:47:21.200 --> 00:47:23.117
something that in the whole history of

00:47:23.200 --> 00:47:24.557
our industry could never have happened

00:47:24.640 --> 00:47:28.397
before. So if you had asked an AI if

00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:31.357
Elon had any prayer of catching um open

00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:33.757
AI or anthropic, they would have said no

00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:36.717
way. Uh and so that's where you're

00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:39.837
getting into um I mean maybe if the AI

00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:44.237
was smart enough, I suppose, but like
the there are these a lot of it has to

00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:47.277
do with like how much do
you believe in the person?

00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:49.357
>> Yeah. And then and then the other
part is what we talked about already, but

00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:51.677
it's it's the long and twisting path,
you know, the investment is just the

00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:54.077
beginning, right? And it's the long and
twisting path that that person and that

00:47:54.160 --> 00:47:56.797
company take over time and all the
different ways that we you know, we try

00:47:56.880 --> 00:48:01.517
to try try to help them succeed. And so
I I think that yeah, I yeah, if yes, I I

00:48:01.600 --> 00:48:02.877
don't know how to have AI do all that.

00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:04.557
Um but maybe we'll figure it out.

00:48:04.640 --> 00:48:08.717
>> Yeah, you could imagine an AI who could
do it all. Of course, if an AI was smart

00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:12.637
at a human about every single thing,
including human psychology, then

00:48:12.720 --> 00:48:17.357
certainly could be. you're you're you're
tasked with training this AI. Like what

00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:19.837
are the things that you've learned
on this art that you can put into words?

00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:22.717
Like if it is, and this is the most
optimistic view of the future I can

00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.597
think of, the tools are getting better,
but the human piece really really

00:48:25.680 --> 00:48:29.197
matters. Like what have you learned
about the art that you can that you can

00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:32.717
describe? Like what do you look
for in in a Christopher Columbus?

00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:37.437
>> Well, I mean, I think that um the first
thing and I you know, I hesitate to to

00:48:37.520 --> 00:48:40.717
name things in in some sense because
they're all so different, right? like

00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.517
Elon is really not at all like uh Mark

00:48:43.600 --> 00:48:45.277
Zuckerberg, who's not at all like Ali

00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:48.877
Goce, who's not like at all like Brian

00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:51.117
Chesky. So like they're all different.

00:48:51.200 --> 00:48:54.237
Um and

00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:56.957
the but the things that they all do I I

00:48:57.040 --> 00:49:01.517
would say is um they all think for
themselves. They're not people who read

00:49:01.600 --> 00:49:04.477
the room and try and like figure out
what people want them to do. They they

00:49:04.560 --> 00:49:07.757
they have original ideas. So original

00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:10.237
idea is probably the thing that every

00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:12.317
great entrepreneur has their original

00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:15.357
thinkers. Um

00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:20.317
and then you know they they all also

00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:24.557
have some combination of enough

00:49:24.640 --> 00:49:27.437
charisma. They're interesting enough um

00:49:27.520 --> 00:49:30.157
that people want to follow them. Um

00:49:30.240 --> 00:49:33.117
because you know ultimately you you kind

00:49:33.200 --> 00:49:35.917
of need people to go okay that is the

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:40.717
leader and that's somebody who I want
to work with work for and so forth. Uh so

00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:45.517
that's those are the things that I would
say almost all of them have and then and

00:49:45.600 --> 00:49:47.117
I think all of them have those to be

00:49:47.200 --> 00:49:51.357
great. Uh but everything else I know

00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:56.157
like Steve Jobs is a very different
kind of guy. Um they're all they're all

00:49:56.240 --> 00:50:00.237
different I would say very like Steve Jo
is nothing like Andy Grove like nothing

00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:02.957
uh but you know they're both great.

00:50:03.040 --> 00:50:06.637
>> To close us out I guess from from each
of you what is the thing that you're

00:50:06.720 --> 00:50:10.397
personally most excited about in the next
kind of couple of years of A16Z but

00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:13.357
just tech more broadly. Well, I mean I

00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:17.517
mean you know you Mark Mark had a great
line like well this is on the order of

00:50:17.600 --> 00:50:19.677
like the steam engine or electricity or

00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:22.317
like like this is such a big invention

00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:25.117
um that we're going to end up in a

00:50:25.200 --> 00:50:27.437
different world and the thing that's

00:50:27.520 --> 00:50:31.037
most exciting to me about it is

00:50:31.120 --> 00:50:32.717
you know I wouldn't want to live in the

00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:35.357
pre-electricity world. Um like I like

00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:38.637
this world way way way better. And so I

00:50:38.720 --> 00:50:42.957
think that like odds are we're going
to get to a world that's just way way

00:50:43.040 --> 00:50:46.957
better than we can even like we can't
even get our heads around it, which is

00:50:47.040 --> 00:50:52.317
why it freaks people out. Like all these
stuff that we have to do and so forth

00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:56.477
that we've just learned to live with
that sucks um isn't going to be required

00:50:56.560 --> 00:50:58.877
anymore. And so like you know what does

00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:00.957
that mean? What do we think of then?

00:51:01.040 --> 00:51:03.837
Like what does life become? It could be

00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:08.957
uh you know super exciting. Now the one
thing with humans that's a little messed

00:51:09.040 --> 00:51:12.717
up is you know if
that takes us too far away

00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:14.717
like one of the you know too far away

00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:20.957
from some grounded purpose uh about um

00:51:21.040 --> 00:51:24.237
you know and beliefs uh and spirituality

00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:28.957
then you know you can attach on to some
dumb stuff. Uh, so you know that that

00:51:29.040 --> 00:51:30.717
that would be actually my only worry.

00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:34.397
But I think life just the quality
of life for everybody is about to get like

00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:36.797
way way better than it's ever been.

00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:38.797
>> I'm excited about the Zoomers.

00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:41.837
>> I

00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:46.317
am psyched for the Zoomers. Um, I was
with a I was with a a founder a founder

00:51:46.400 --> 00:51:49.597
team the other day. Um, and I was who
are Zoomers and I was explaining to

00:51:49.680 --> 00:51:52.237
them, you know, why the Zoomers are so
much better than the millennials and why

00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:54.157
they're going to save us and like
the whole thing is going to be great. This

00:51:54.240 --> 00:51:56.957
is so great. And of course they're just
like staring at me like I'm speaking

00:51:57.040 --> 00:51:59.997
Greek because like they you know they're
you know they exper you know they just

00:52:00.080 --> 00:52:03.197
think like millennials are like old farts
that are like completely out of touch.

00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:06.797
>> Um and of course you know us Ben and I
are geners. We might as well be you know

00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:09.517
stone age. Um and I
was like but I was like

00:52:09.600 --> 00:52:12.077
>> but I was like this is what's so great
about the zoomers like they just like

00:52:12.160 --> 00:52:15.117
they're they're it's the it's the post I

00:52:15.200 --> 00:52:18.077
would describe it as 2015 to 2024 was

00:52:18.160 --> 00:52:20.477
just it was a very very strange period.

00:52:20.560 --> 00:52:25.357
Uh and a lot of just things got really
weird. Um, and the Zoomers are the

00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:28.957
generation that basically was on the
receiving end of that. And I they're at

00:52:29.040 --> 00:52:32.237
least for the Zoomers we get to deal
with, like they're just not having it.

00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:35.037
Um, and they're not walking around
feeling guilty about everything all the

00:52:35.120 --> 00:52:37.597
time. They're not feeling like they
have to like deny that they want to be

00:52:37.680 --> 00:52:40.397
successful. You know, they don't have
any of the moral, you know, kind of hair

00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:44.317
short stuff. Um, they're just like
they're they're if anything is like

00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:46.397
that, too. Gen X kind of let go of all

00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:49.997
the craziness of the 60s and early 70s.

00:52:50.080 --> 00:52:52.957
>> Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Gen Right. Exactly. Gen X was the reaction

00:52:53.040 --> 00:52:55.437
of the boomers in the same way the Zoomers
are reaction to the millennials.

00:52:55.520 --> 00:52:59.277
Um and so the the the Zoomer founders
that we get to deal with I my view is

00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:02.797
like it's the best. It's the best. It's
the best, most competent, most capable.

00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:06.557
By the way, they're just like incredibly
well. They come in all just incredibly

00:53:06.640 --> 00:53:09.277
well trained and educated because they
grew up online. You know, they've seen,

00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:11.837
you know, a thousand hours of YouTube
videos from all the great, you know,

00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:14.717
people in tech talking about how to do
everything. You know, they just know so

00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:18.157
much more than previous generations
of founders did. Um and you know, they're

00:53:18.240 --> 00:53:21.037
by the way, they're now they're all AI
native. um you know they all you know

00:53:21.120 --> 00:53:23.917
basically learned AI from scratch and you
know in college and you know they're

00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:27.677
coming out and they they totally
understand it. Um and so and they're

00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:31.357
just like tremendously fired up and like
completely you know completely you know

00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:33.997
they wear their you know they wear
their heart in their sleeve. They're like

00:53:34.080 --> 00:53:35.597
they're they're going to build something
they're going to build something great

00:53:35.680 --> 00:53:38.557
and they're completely unapologetic
about it. Uh they're very forceful.

00:53:38.640 --> 00:53:41.917
They're very determined. Um yeah I I
I just think it's fantastic. I've been

00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:46.237
waiting this Eric and Ben will tell
you I've been waiting for this for

00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:50.477
>> for a long time. We may have to edit
this out, but one of the things I do

00:53:50.560 --> 00:53:52.877
really like about the Zoomers, I haven't

00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:57.617
ever heard anybody say anything like,
"I'm going to do well by doing good."

00:53:57.700 --> 00:54:01.677
[laughter] Like, you should
never say that >> No. No.

00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:03.357
>> Sense of humor, too. They're funny.

00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:04.957
>> Yes. Yes.
They're extremely funny. Well,

00:54:05.040 --> 00:54:07.117
they're extremely funny. They They get it.
They get They live through They were

00:54:07.200 --> 00:54:09.517
on the receiving end of just
a tremendous amount of and and

00:54:09.600 --> 00:54:13.037
they're just like they're just not
having it. Um, and so it's just I find

00:54:13.120 --> 00:54:16.717
it just like tremendously exciting uh
to be able to work with them. And if if I

00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:20.477
if I had total control over my time,
it would be 100% spent with Zoomer.

00:54:20.560 --> 00:54:24.317
>> Well, I appreciate you spending an hour
with a millennial. This was a ton of

00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:28.157
fun. Thank you for letting me write
about uh about a 16Z and and thanks for

00:54:28.240 --> 00:54:30.877
thanks for the conversation.
>> We're we're talking about all your

00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:34.717
future guests. >> Exactly.
Becky, this was an excellent

00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:36.397
piece. Thank you so much for writing.

00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:41.720
>> Yeah. My pleasure. 100%. Okay.