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What virtually everybody finds,
including Elon Musk, is the real world

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is just really, really big
and really, really messy.

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>> The AI thing is so interesting, right?

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Because from a technology perspective,
it feels like you can build products

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pretty immediately that are going to win.

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>> Our entire way of doing everything
as humans, we think it's going to change.

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We reinvented the computer and the new

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computer is far better than the one that
we have been building on for the last 50

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or so years. The purpose of building the
dominant venture brand was precisely to

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be able to have the companies be able
to borrow that at the most critical points

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in their development so that the
companies can kind of use our force in

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the world as a slingshot
to basically build their own force.

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>> You cannot join the firm unless you
[music] sign the culture document. If

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you had to pick a thing,
what are you compounding?

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>> Reputation. [music]

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>> We have a very special guest, Pachy
McCormack, who just wrote an excellent

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profile of AS6 and Z. Py,
thanks for coming on the podcast.

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>> Thanks for having me. Kathy, I want
to start by saying thank you for the

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amazing piece. Like it's just like
incredible. Like absolutely incredible.

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So we we we just like really appreciate
all the all the work that you put into

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it because that that was a big one.

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>> Thank you. I I mean I I appreciate
being able to tell this story. It's such a

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cool one and and uh appreciate you know
getting to work with you guys on it.

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>> Everybody welcome to the Ben and Mark
show first of 2026 and we're now getting

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into how the media ecosystem has uh has
changed. We we talked about this great

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great uh TAD friend profile in the New

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Yorker in 2015 that I referenced in the

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piece that that I wrote on A16Z uh
this past week saying that that kind of

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kicked off or was the last kind of point
in an era where uh journalism cared

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about free speech. I think Mark will
do a better job kind of summarizing what

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happened over the past decade. Now
we're at the end of that point. And I was

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asking, you know, to what extent Mark
thinks that he and kind of a few people

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who stood up against this actually kind

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of shifted back to this anarchctic or

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liberated uh view of of the press or
relationship with the media that we have

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now. >> Yeah.
And I was just saying I think you

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could describe what's happening kind
of going forward, the information

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environment being, you know, you could
use kind of three words. You could say

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uncontrolled is maybe the neutral word.

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You could say anarchctic is the negative
word. You could say liberated is the

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positive word. um you know in terms
of freedom of speech, freedom of thought,

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you know, and I say at least in the US,
I think generally on the internet and

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then, you know, we can talk about
what what what what other countries are

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doing, but at least in the US, you know,
we're clearly entering a much more free

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speech world. Um, so I just start
by saying like I don't I don't think I

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should claim any moral heroism at all
here at like at all because you know I

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you know I mean I can I have my own
version of my own story going all the

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way back to [laughter] I turned
one of my claims to I turned

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down the opportunity um at the time
in 1993 to implement censorship in the web

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browser um you know which would have
been a completely different uh and uh

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and and you know very dystopian world.

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So I I don't know maybe I get a little
bit of credit for that but you know I

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think for the last decade like I
was kind of on the same ride as everybody

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else and you know we you know we we you
know I've been on the on the I've been

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on this you know Facebook board since
2007 so I kind of went through the

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entire kind of crazy roller coaster
that that company went through uh over the

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last decade and then you know we've been
involved in in you know lots of these

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companies um you know I was you know
I was an angel investor in Twitter um

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angel investor in LinkedIn you know they
they both you know became kind of key

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parts of the censorship machine um
at certain points and so I I don't want to

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claim like huge moral heroism um I do
think a couple things. One is obviously

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Elon's purchase of of Twitter, you know,
obviously was like a a gigantic turning

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point. Um I also want to give just like
enormous credit to the Substack guys. Um

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you know, and they were very proud
because we were the original investor

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and we're the largest outside investor
in Substack and and you know, I think

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they they did a really really great job
holding the line of freedom of speech

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under and I would tell you under
enormous pressure um uh you know,

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especially a very consistent
and totally principled stant on it.

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>> Yeah, that's right. And they they
got I if you know I don't know if people

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remember this or not but I mean they got
they got really lit up um you know by by

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by a lot of the sort of you know anti-
speech forces for you know I mean the

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whole litany of you know kind
of standard accusations um of of of just

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being absolutely horrible. Um, and yeah,
they they they stuck to their principles

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the whole time. And then they, you know,
you know, at least with Elon acts like

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he's Elon. And so when when when he
wants to go to war with like, you know,

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somebody who's like trying to get him
to censor more, like he does it in a very

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kind of force, you know, public,
visible and forceful way. You know, the

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Substack, you know, Substack's still,
you know, a younger company. Um, and so

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they they don't have that level of kind
of just throw weight in the world yet.

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Um, and so they they have the harder
version of the challenge and they they

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had to fight, you know, a whole bunch of
fights, including, you know, fights that

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aren't even public. um you know to to
to basically keep keep the service with

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high integrity. >> It's a I
think a good place to kind of

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talk about a bunch of the themes that
that we covered in the in the piece. One

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of which is I mean the Substack
investment. I remember at the time I was

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on Substack my career was starting
because of Substack and I still at the

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time thought it was kind of a crazy
investment. Were you thinking about it

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from the perspective of this is going
to be a great returner. This is something

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that is good for the future. Is it a mix
of the two of those things? And then to

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what extent have you allowed Substack
to fight that fight by being on their side

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that they wouldn't have been
able to do if you weren't there?

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>> Yeah. So we say we you know we
never make in you know we never make

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investments for just purely kind
of social or political reasons like so the

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you know the goal the goal obviously
always is as as as sort of fiduciaries

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is to to generate returns and so
you know in the in the in in the main

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business and so we you know we we we
always invest with the intention that

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the company that we invest in you know
has the opportunity to become what we

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call kind of a cornerstone franchise
you know in the industry and an important

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force in the world. Um and you know
I and I we certainly believe that a

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substack of the time and you know we we
believe that more than ever today. So so

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I think that's true but but I also think
I you know I you know I think this is

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kind of the magic in in a lot of what we
do you know at Silicon Valley which is I

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I think the companies in many not
in every case but in many cases the

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companies that become the best version
of themselves also become the most

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successful businesses. Um and and I
think Substack is a great example of

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that and and and Substack is actually
a very very very good example of that

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because if Substack is making its
writer successful then it's making itself

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successful right and so it's it's
got this just like extremely direct

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alignment of interest between it success
and it and its writer success and then

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as a consequence of that if its writers
are successful kind of by definition you

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know those that you know those writers
reader you know readers are successful

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they're getting what they want. Um
and so you know I would say you know there

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were sort of a bunch of reasons we
invested in Substack. Um, you know, one

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was just, you know, we we we fell
in love with, you know, with the guys. Um,

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and, you know, you probably know the guys,
they're easy to fall in love with.

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So, that that was the that was the easy
part. Um, and then, you know, look, I

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had been around, you know, we we had
been around, you know, you know, the web

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going all the way back. And then,
you know, particularly the, you know, the

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kind of golden age of blogging, you know,
was kind of this kind of very, you

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know, special time. Um and you know
you know and and and blogging really you

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know I think you know maybe gets
underestimated because maybe there was

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no single company that kind of got full
credit for it or something but you know

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it really create the phenomenon
of blogging created an enormous amount of

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intellectual content you know uh
that that that basically was not going to

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exist otherwise. Um, and then it it
just, you know, blogging kind of just

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always h it had a series of problems
because there was no single company

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behind it. But, you know, one one of the
problems was bloggers just could it was

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just very hard for bloggers to make money,
right? Um, and so, you know, the

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substack guys basically said, well,
we're, you know, we're going to do that,

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but we're, you know, we solve the
economic model. People are ready to pay

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now for content. Um, and this makes sense.
And then, you know, there was

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this chicken and egg thing right up
front, which was like, well, you know,

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can you really see, you know,
the internet's a wash with content. People

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aren't paying for almost any of it. like
are they really gonna you know you have

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to kind of squint and kind of say okay
are people actually going to pay for any

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of the stuff that they're getting today
and I think the thing that in that case

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that we were that we had faith in was
basically this could be what we call a

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supply driven market um which is right
if you provide the modernization

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capability um then you're going to bring
into existence writers and content that

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don't exist today um and that is going
to create new demand that's not visible

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today and then that demand is going to
come back around and it's going to incent

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so so it was basically a bet that
there's like an entire generation of

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of high quality content that doesn't
exist because the monetization mechanism

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doesn't exist. And that's, you know,
that's certainly what what what Chris

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and his and his partners believe.
And and I think that's that's absolutely

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what's proven out. And so, yeah, I I
think it's it's like a great example of

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founders that like really see a future
that doesn't exist yet. And it's it's

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obvious to them. And unfortunately,
in that case, they were able to uh you

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know, convince us like whenever we
really screw up, it's because there's a

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founder who can see the future and they
come and they sit in our office, they

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tell us what the future is, and we say,
"Yeah, I don't really buy it." [snorts]

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Right? And then for the next 30 years,
you know, we have to read about the, you

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know, glorious success of this thing
as that future actually develops. And like

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that really sucks. Um, and I and I don't
like to talk about those, but I will

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say, you know, Substack is Yeah, maybe
maybe they're just really good at sales,

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but they they they fully convinced us.

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And I'm I'm really thrilled that that
that's what's happening. they were kind

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of ahead of the the kind of change from

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old media to new media in that you know

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as the brand moved from the New York

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Times uh or the Wall Street Journal to

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the actual writers themselves um

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Substack was like a massive enabler
for that and you know they created this

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thing which they call the nonfgeable
writer which is you know like how many

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things in the newspaper could anybody

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write and including AI by the way um and

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you know how much is like truly like
interesting and valuable and they really

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wanted all the truly interesting
and valuable things um to be able to build

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their people to build their own brands
and their own businesses on Substack and

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that that would that that also
turned out to be very true.

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>> Yeah. And that was where you know
Hish in particular right turned out to be

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really critical on their team you
know and and you know he and I had a

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conversation early on this where you
know I was like well you know I don't

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know are these people ever going
to leave their publications? are they ever

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going to actually write content that's
you know like you know what's Upstack

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was gearing up it's when in my view
the press kind of became this kind of

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extreme and negative monoculture and so
I was like all right you got you know

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because he's like you got all these
writers kind of trapped at these places

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and I'm like well are they really
trapped like are they you know are they

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in jail or have they built the jail
like what you know like are and if and if

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they if they leave are they going to be
any different and he's like look if if

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their only option to basically put
food on the table is to work for a

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publication that basically you know
requires them to write a certain way

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then they're going to write that way you
know because they need to pay the bills

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but he that he he basically said,
"I guarantee you that there's a lot of

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these folks, you know, where if if
they had an independent path, they would

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take, you know, they would be thrilled
to be able to, you know, maybe break

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themselves out of jail and they would
be thrilled to, you know, write about

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things, you know, from different angles.

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Um, and and have different takes
on things and, you know, you'd see this

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basically this, you know,
this liberation phenomenon take place, uh,

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where you you'd have actually many
different kinds of voices even coming

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from people where you wouldn't expect it
based on the work that they did for, you

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know, the New York Times or whoever.
And and of course, he was 100% right. You

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can see a world where because it
attracts kind of all of the best writers

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from all of these different places who
can build their own businesses, Substack

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becomes 10 times larger than any of the
media organizations that it replaces. I

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I love the the email that you send to to
Ali at at data bricks Ben where you talk

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about the fact that you know the business
was underelling itself. He was

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under selling the business and it was
going to be 10 times bigger than Oracle.

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So $2 trillion. Yeah. >> I want
to understand like the mechanism

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of that. Like do you think that happens
every generation that the new companies

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are 10 times bigger? Why does that

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happen? Is it just software?

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>> Um yeah. So on that one it was actually

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pretty simple because if you compared

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the onremise software companies to the

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cloud software companies. So compare uh

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people soft to workday or compare uh

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seal software to Salesforce. the cloud

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version was just 10 times bigger >>
and Oracle was kind of the on-remise

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version of data bricks you know kind
of you know rough rough analog you know

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things are different um you know data is

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bigger uh and so forth but if you look

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at like who was going to be the data

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kind of provider in the cloud the the
provider of technology to manage your

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data in the cloud it was going to I mean
I I was very confident data bricks would

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win that and so then if you say well
what's the market size of that. Um, and

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and by the way, you know, when I said
that AI wasn't as big as it is, so I

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think that uh that's helping
my prediction. Um, but you know, like it

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was just clearly going to be 10 times
bigger and I was like, Ali, why are you

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trying to convince this candidate
that you're going to be worth 10 billion?

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Like that's what are you even talking
about? Uh, but you know, Ali is super

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paranoid. [laughter] Uh,
so you know, God bless him. Uh so

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you know those are kinds of things and
look you have to know your entrepreneur.

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I mean I think this is uh you know one

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of the things that I I think Mark does

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very well is like you know that advice

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isn't advice you give to every
entrepreneur. It's you know it was very

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worked well specifically for him. And I

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think that um

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you know that's always the case like

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it's a very psychological game running a

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company and so you have to kind of tap

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in to that person's particular

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psychology to um kind of change the

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trajectory of of what the company
is doing into the right direction.

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>> Yeah. I'd also add, you know, Pat on
the Substack point, like I think Substack

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could be like a thousand times the size
of the of the existing like content

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industry, whatever you want to call it,
media news industry. Um, the collective,

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you know, kind of value and and the
reason is because um, and you know,

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you're an example of this yourself. Um,
so you know, my whole life, so I'm like,

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you know, mid mid-50s and so like I I
grew up, you know, when I was a teen,

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you know, kid and teenager, you know,
the the the moral panic of the era was

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television. And it was just this like
endless litany of sort of social

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criticism, you know, from kind of, you
know, fancy people basically saying, you

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know, consumers are, you know, basically
normal people are idiots. They just want

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to sit in front of the boob tube. They
just want to like be couch potatoes. You

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know, the the line everybody used at the
time was Americans watch six hours of TV

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a day and then you turned on TV and you
just saw this they they have this term,

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the vast wasteland of,
you know, game shows and Yeah.

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>> And it's just like this like very
dystopian kind of thing of just like

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people are just morons. And then you
know the internet version of that is of

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course you know these you know that kind
of moral panic has transferred straight

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over onto the internet in the form
of you know of course you know short form

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videos. Tik Tok um you know people just
want to watch you know these these these

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stupid short form videos and it's just
>> cat playing the piano is the original

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one. Right. >> Yeah. Exactly.
Cat cat videos. By by the

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way I'm an afficionado of cat videos.
I do not look down on cat videos

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whatsoever. AI cat videos are my current
favorite genre of any form of of

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entertainment. So I will >>
the AIAT videos are very good.

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[laughter] >> I will I
will Yes, Ben can confirm. I

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send I send around a lot of AI cat videos.
However, there is an enormous

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market for just like mass media just
for like whatever, you know, for whatever

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game shows or sitcoms or, you know, soap
operas or there modern versions of those

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and there's a giant, you know, mass mass
mass mass media uh market for uh for cat

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videos. But um this goes back to these
this idea of supply driven market. There

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there's also, I think, just like
enormous latent demand for actual smart

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high quality stuff. um and and and
particularly in media and in and in

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every kind of media and and I think
the issue the issue is not lack of demand.

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And I think the issue is lack of supply.

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Um because like this kind of goes back to,
you know, kind of consumer marketing

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101, which is consu people don't know
what they want until it's given to them,

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right? You know, nobody ever asked
for a Macintosh. Nobody ever asked for an

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iPhone. Like you know, these things had
to be designed and built and provided on

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the supply side before the demand
materialized. And then the demand of

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course turned out to be, you know,
far higher than anybody anybody expected.

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And and I think that that same thing
is is exactly true of media. I think a

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great early existence proof of this was
the success of long form podcasting. um

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you know which is I remember my early
conversations with some of the early

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long form podcasters and they're like
it's the strangest thing we've ever seen

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cuz everybody tells us that the consumers
have short attention spans but

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you know people are literally watching
three-hour podcast and we get the

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analytics and people are watching all
the way to the end of the three-hour

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podcast and so I view this very much
as like you know this is one of these

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classic markets that's a barbell which
is yeah you have a certain amount of

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whatever just you know whatever uh you
know main you know sort of mainstream

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whatever uh you know filler whatever
on the one side um but you have this

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massive sort of untapped market uh for
high quality content in basically every

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domain. Um and they're just had you
know and again you know technological

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transformation the the the existing
structure of the media company was a

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structure that was designed for a world
of centralized media. Um you need you

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need a new structure today and you know
of course that that you know that's why

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we're so high on Substack. But yeah when
when we look at Substack it's the exact

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same thing that you were just talking
about with data bricks which is like wow

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this thing could be orders of magnitude

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orders of magnitude multiples um larger
um you know than than anything we've

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seen so far. And I and you know, frankly,
I think we're starting to see that.

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>> So implicit in in
kind of the fund sizes

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00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,797
that you raise is some kind of view on how
big the future is going to be or how

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much of the world technology is going
to eat over the next decade or so. What

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00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,277
does 15 billion say about kind of what
the world looks like in a decade and how

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00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,277
many substacks there are that are much
bigger than whoever they're replacing?

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>> Well, I think that uh

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we reinvented the computer. Um so and

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the new computer is far better than the

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00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,597
one that we have been kind of building

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00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,517
on for the last uh 50 or so years. Um

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00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,157
well really longer than that but 50 in

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00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:23,197
earnest and you know so
there is not I mean we talk

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00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,077
about this all the time in the firm
there's not a problem that we can think

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00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,517
of that you can't that you won't be able

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00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,837
to solve with AI. So like almost every

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problem in the world and you

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00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,837
you know, from uh cancer to transport

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00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,077
transportation to massive fraud in the US.
You just name a problem in the

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00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,717
headlines and we're like, "Oh yeah, we

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00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,637
can solve that." And so, um, it's kind

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00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,797
of the reinvention of everything. So,

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00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:52,877
like all our our entire way of doing

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00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,237
everything as humans, uh, we think it's

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going to change. And so,

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00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,357
you know, I would view it as 15 billion

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00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:06,557
to start for us because um there's so
much to do and there's so many things

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00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,277
that are going to get built and you
know, like some of it is just timing

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00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:11,197
with the entrepreneurs, but we think the

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00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:12,557
number of entrepreneurs is going to

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00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,397
multiply as well. Um because the the e

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00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,957
kind of the the ease of going from an

330
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,837
idea to a really fantastic solution um

331
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,717
and a fantastic product is just going
to be so much simpler because you know one

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00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,397
of the things that AI is best at of

333
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,517
course is um kind of building stuff uh

334
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:39,437
and uh and so yeah it's just a a very
unique time in kind of the history of

335
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,997
the world. >> Yeah. Yeah.
the the out body experience

336
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,877
I have with AI on a regular basis now
is you know it's just like okay I think

337
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,357
about the way Ben does and then I'm
like all right how might you apply AI to

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00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,157
solve yeah for example the fraud scandal
you know the kind of fraud that we're

339
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,557
seeing play out you know any anything
like that and and it's like oh okay I

340
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,117
need to think and think about how to how
to have AI solve this and I'm like well

341
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,877
wait a minute why don't
I ask the AI [laughter]

342
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,677
right and then I go in there and I'm
like you know da da da how should I do

343
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,397
this and it's like oh well here it's
obvious how you would do it and here's

344
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,757
you know the 18 steps that you would
take um and then I tell it well you know

345
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,477
okay like you know interview me,
you know, interview me on all the open

346
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,717
questions in the topic, you know, to get
my thoughts on them. And then and then

347
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,357
it starts, you know, it starts
interrogating me, right? And then I'm

348
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,157
like, okay, now give me your point,
you know, and so any it's just like, you

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00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,957
know, as you know, like if you had tried
to do that with a normal computer in the

350
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,597
old days, it' just like stare you,
[laughter] right? Like, so like this is

351
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,957
really, really, really different.
Um, and then, you know, Py, I think the

352
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,157
venture lens I would put on this is, um,
you know, in terms of the mechanics of

353
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,437
venture capital, um, you know, the sort
of classic, you know, venture capital

354
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,317
triangle is is team, product, and market.
Um and and you're always trying

355
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,797
to kind of evaluate all three of those
and people have always had, you know,

356
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,277
different theories over the years
of which is more important than the others

357
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:49,997
and how they how they interact. But
the the the the the thing that basically

358
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,197
every investor, public market investors,
private investors, the thing that we're

359
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,557
all trained to do is basically market
sizing like we're, you know, you know,

360
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,877
for, you know, we're trained to do
technology analysis. We're trained to do

361
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,197
like, you know, background checks
on people. And then we're trained to do

362
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,877
market sizing. Like, you know, okay, how
big is this market? because you know the

363
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,597
the classic adage right is if you if you
put a huge amount of effort into going

364
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,277
after a small market you still get
a small outcome. Um but there's a

365
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,717
presumption in there which is that you
you you can actually predict market

366
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,157
sizes on these things and and the problem
with that again is this sort of

367
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,037
this presumption that you can predict
market sizes based on the dynamics that

368
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:25,037
exist in the market today. Um,
but if there's a fundamental change on the

369
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,917
supply side, if there's if there's
a fundamental breakthrough, a fundamental

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00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,597
capability that doesn't exist yet,
you you're not going to be able to

371
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,717
accurately model the market size because
you can't you can't see it yet. Like you

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00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,837
you you've changed one of the major
variables and you you you can't do that.

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00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,237
And you know, and then you could call
that the leap of faith or whatever, but

374
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,877
it's like, okay, if you if you make the
change in the supply side, then all of a

375
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,557
sudden the market gets 10 or 100
or thousand times larger. like you you can

376
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,077
almost never validate that with math
at the time of the investment, but that's

377
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,557
the thing that makes the outperformers,
you know, really go. Um, and and I just

378
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,437
I just think like as as Ben and I kind
of go through our careers, we just see

379
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,877
more and more examples where the mistake
that we or others make is, oh, this must

380
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,477
be, you know, the market for Uber
and Lift must be the market for taxi cabs,

381
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,437
right? Um, or, you know, the market Yeah.
or or the market for cloud

382
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,517
software must be the same as the market
for for for on-prem software, right? um

383
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,557
uh or or the market >> the market
for GPUs must be the market

384
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,957
for people who like to play games.

385
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,637
>> Yes, exactly. And we just keep seeing
example after example after example

386
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,997
where the uh significant enough
technology change, product change on the

387
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,757
supply side unlocks much larger markets
and I and I think that's going to be I I

388
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,557
mean think frankly that's going to be
like the single like dominant trend in

389
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,277
investing for like the next 30 years.
I think that's just going to like

390
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:35,597
telescope way out.
>> The AI thing is is so interesting,

391
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,637
right? cuz from a technology perspective,
it feels like you can build

392
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,797
products pretty immediately that are
going to win. And then A16Z starts to

393
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,277
make a lot more sense in that context
where it's like all of these other

394
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:47,197
things. It's how do you do go to market?

395
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,397
How do you do policy? Like how do you
set the conditions for the actual best

396
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,997
technology to win as quickly as possible?
Like how do you think about

397
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,237
all the different things that you do
there? And is that the right way to

398
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,117
think about it that like the best
technology should win and the platform

399
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,237
is there to make sure that that happens?

400
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:03,357
You know, the way we always thought

401
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:08,077
about the firm was um what can a partner

402
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,837
do for an entrepreneur that will uh not

403
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,237
only help them ensure their success but
help them kind of build the company they

404
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,637
want to build and the way they want
to build it with the people they want to

405
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,837
build it with um and the culture that

406
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,277
they're proud of. And to do that there

407
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:29,117
there there's many many pieces and a lot
of it um you know some of it is just

408
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,517
like very fundamental like can you do
your business in the United States of

409
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,277
America? Can you do it in the world? And
so that that that's where the the policy

410
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:38,957
comes in. It's just like a very basic

411
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,237
question and looks have a huge interest

412
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,397
in technology these days. So like it's a

413
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,437
it's a necessary one. Um, a lot of the

414
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,637
other things come down to, you know, how

415
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,317
do you go from being an inventor to

416
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,797
being a competent CEO and that really uh

417
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,357
is a confidence game for for lack
of a better word. And that you know, it's

418
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,957
very difficult to run an organization
when you don't know what you're doing.

419
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,877
Uh, which nobody does when they're
an inventor. and you get tremendous amount

420
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,677
of advice and advice that's often

421
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,957
extremely bad. Uh and almost the opposite
of what you should be doing. Uh

422
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,557
and there are very few like the people
who have actually built things don't

423
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,717
have time to talk to you. They're often
away building things. So you get these

424
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,197
like advisors and you know Silicon

425
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,837
Valley people uh who tell you how to run
your company, who to hire, this and that

426
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,117
and the other. Um, and then those things
turn out to be wrong and you get into

427
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,517
this confidence spiral. And so we, you
know, the whole firm is built to put you

428
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,597
in a kind of a virtuous confidence cycle

429
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,277
as opposed to a vicious confidence

430
00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:47,117
cycle. And that means like, oh, I need

431
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,357
to call somebody who's hard to get to,

432
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,397
like an important CEO or like, you know,

433
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,477
I've got to recruit a top-end engineer

434
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,437
or I have to um figure out how to market

435
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,397
my product or I have to get to somebody

436
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,037
uh important in the government. the if I

437
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:07,757
can do that, my confidence builds. If I
can't do that, my confidence sinks. And

438
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,197
so then, you know, once you're
confident, you can make decisions

439
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:16,157
faster. You can uh, you know, build the
company more effectively. You can go for

440
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,437
what you actually want. You can have
confidence that, okay, what I want is

441
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,957
the right thing as opposed to what
somebody's whispering in my ear, you

442
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,757
know, who is uh whatever a CEO coach or

443
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,077
a VC or this or that or the other. And

444
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,357
so the whole firm is designed to uh kind

445
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,957
of enable that inventor to become a CEO

446
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,277
and and and run their own company and

447
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:40,557
put their mark not just you know locally

448
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,917
but in the world uh by being able to

449
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,397
kind of network to anyone. And so that's

450
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,437
that's a lot of what we're about.

451
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,397
>> Yeah. And I just add the the sort
of macro, you know, kind of outside inland

452
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,477
on that is it's just like, you know,
we we we we get to work with these, you

453
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,357
know, super geniuses, but they're
specifically they are super geniuses at

454
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,157
building products, building technologies.
Um, you know, to be a

455
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,597
super genius at building technologies.

456
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,997
Generally, it requires you to have been
sitting in a lab, you know, in front of

457
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:07,757
a screen for, you know, 10 or 20 years.

458
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,197
Um, you know, they they just they they
have they, you know, these folks are

459
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,437
fully capable of understanding
everything about the world at large.

460
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,157
They just haven't they just haven't done
it yet. they just they they just haven't

461
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,957
been out then they haven't met all
the people and they haven't dealt with all

462
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,077
the issues in the real world and and
and so that that leads to this kind of

463
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,197
recurring you know kind of I would say
misimpression sometimes that that the

464
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,597
people have just like well if you just
if you build the right product you know

465
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,037
if you build the breakthrough whatever
XYZ widget like it's just the world is

466
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:34,077
obviously going to adopt it everybody's
going to use it it's it's just obviously

467
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,357
going to you know kind of sweep things
and you know if and basically if if it

468
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,997
doesn't the answer is the product's not
good enough and you know there's there's

469
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:41,997
a little bit of truth to that like
obviously the better the more

470
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,877
breakthrough the product you know the more
there will just be organic traction

471
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,477
what virtually everybody finds,
you know, up up to including Elon Musk,

472
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,757
right? What what what everybody finds
is the real world is just like really

473
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,637
really big and really really messy,
right? Um and there are, you know, 8

474
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,077
billion people out there with like
opinions um that are not necessarily,

475
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,157
you know, your opinions. Um, and you
know, many of them have a real vote as

476
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,877
to what is going to happen with your
product and with your company, you know,

477
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,077
including whether anybody buys,
you know, your thing or, you know, all of

478
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,957
the X factors that kick in, you know,
all the different ways that, you know,

479
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,677
people are going to come and try to,
you know, what you're doing. Um, or

480
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,677
or, you know, or maybe even worse than
that, you know, just ignore you, right?

481
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,157
Um, and so there is this there is this
just there is this really big world out

482
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,797
there. It's really complicated.
It's really messy. It's not necessarily in

483
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,997
favor of new ideas. uh in many cases
it really really doesn't like them and

484
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,837
wants to reject them. Um and there there
are there's real art and science you

485
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,797
know to yeah to to Ben's point
to building the company around the product

486
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,157
and the founder uh to be able to take
the breakthrough and be able to take it

487
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,837
successfully into the world. Um, and and
as far as we can tell, like as far as I

488
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,597
can tell, like that that process
is getting, you know, hairier and more

489
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,197
complicated over time, right? Uh, it's
not getting easier. It's it seems like

490
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,237
it's actually getting significantly
harder. Um, and so, yeah, that's that's

491
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,277
a big part of what the what the firm is
built to do is really help founders, you

492
00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:59,357
know, work through that.
>> And one of the things that that that

493
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,477
Mark said in the past, which is really
true, is like, look, as a as an

494
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,237
inventor, you're looking for power, like

495
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,837
a power boost. Um, so how do I go from

496
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:12,717
little old me with my invention to like
I'm the important company in the space

497
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,077
in the world. I can build momentum.
I can get the best engineers. I can get

498
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,917
the, you know, customers faster. And
that that turns into a snowball and I'm

499
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,237
rolling downhill. And so the whole firm

500
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,637
is designed as like a very powerful

501
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,397
entity that you can just tap into and

502
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,877
you know take our brand, take our

503
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,117
connections, take our expertise and

504
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,237
become extremely powerful very fast.

505
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,117
>> Yeah. And by the way, this this this
you know this this is the solution of the

506
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,677
puzzle that people have had about us for
a long time which is wow. It seems like

507
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,397
those guys are like you know awfully
promotional. You know they're they're

508
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,557
you know you know they do all this
marketing stuff. They you know they're

509
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,357
doing all this politics stuff. You know
they they must be doing this for ego

510
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,437
reasons. They must be really full
themselves. You know, this must be

511
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,797
about, you know, >> talk so much
>> They talk so much like the whole

512
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,317
thing. And at least, you know, and maybe
maybe maybe it's possible possible we

513
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,277
talk too much. I'll judge [laughter] that

514
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:05,117
>> from time to time maybe. However,

515
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,357
however, from the beginning, the goal
was to build the do the the purpose of

516
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,237
building the dominant venture brand
was precisely to be able to have the

517
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,957
companies be able to borrow that at
at the most critical points in their

518
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,797
development so that the companies could
could can kind of use use our force in

519
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,837
the world as a slingshot to basically
build their own force. Um, and and I

520
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,757
think that's worked really well
and that's why we don't, you know, shrink

521
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,277
back in a lot of these things.

522
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:28,237
>> Yeah, I I want to like just squeeze
something in and then get right back on

523
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,597
this conversation. Talking too much
is so interesting, but I really love I

524
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,557
think the thing that impressed me
the most when I started working with the

525
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,877
crypto team was seeing never take
the negative in person and like never talk

526
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,957
on a technology, never talk on a
founder, never talk on a company.

527
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,237
Like how do you even train for that?
Cuz that really really impressed me.

528
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:47,757
>> Well, we train for that.

529
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,717
>> Yeah, we train for that.
So uh we have a

530
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,557
culture um that is written culture that

531
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,557
you cannot join the firm unless you sign

532
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,797
uh a document uh the culture document

533
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,957
and says you will adhere to this culture

534
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,757
and uh then you must sit through one

535
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,557
hour with me uh understanding the

536
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,437
culture and fundamentally on that you

537
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,757
know our whole point is if you want to

538
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,037
do something larger than yourselves
and make the world a better place, we are

539
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:24,247
100% for it and we do not care.

540
00:28:24,330 --> 00:28:27,437
[laughter] Uh, you know,
like if in the moment we

541
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,717
think you're making a mistake or like
the idea isn't good enough. It doesn't

542
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,637
matter if we invest in you or don't
invest in you. Um, we're for that. We

543
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,157
are dream builders. We're not dream

544
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,157
killers. We're not here to be like the

545
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,717
analytical smarty pants who makes

546
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,557
ourselves look smart by making somebody

547
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,677
else look stupid. And that's just that's

548
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,917
fundamental to how we think about the

549
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,757
world. Um so like anybody who's trying

550
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,517
to push the world forward and make it

551
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,237
better like whether we agree with their

552
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,917
method or not like we're for it. And so

553
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,477
uh you we just ask you to sign up to

554
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,957
that idea before you ever join.

555
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,037
>> Katherine said that that uh you know
we believe in the future and bet the firm

556
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,997
that way was should actually be
the number one uh kind of value in the in

557
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,157
the culture. By the way, that that
that was Mark's um you know, I I did the

558
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,877
wording, so I give myself a little
credit, but that was Mark's idea.

559
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,757
>> Do you think that should be number
do you think that is number one in in

560
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,557
practice? Do you think first class
business in a first class way is like if

561
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,757
you were to rewrite the doc today,
what is the most important thing in the in

562
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,517
the firm?

563
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,597
>> Well, look, I mean the culture document

564
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,357
is seven things that um you know, and

565
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,797
the culture is more than that. every
culture is more than seven seven ideas

566
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,757
and kind of seven sets of behaviors,

567
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,877
but those are the ones that all seven of

568
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,117
them that we really expect everybody to

569
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,597
live to. Um, so I I I don't know if I

570
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,157
rank them in that sense because they all

571
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,237
go together. They're part of a single

572
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,677
thing. So, um, you know, we believe in

573
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,677
the future means that we believe in the
people who build the future, which means

574
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,557
we're not going to criticize them,
which means, you know, we're not going to

575
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,277
we're not going to be on the attack side
of that. We're never going to attack the

576
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,077
future. We're going to try and make,
you know, there are going to be problems

577
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,797
with how we build the future, but we're
going to try and make it the best future

578
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,037
we can. We're not going to try and live

579
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,477
in the past. Uh, and so that you can't

580
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,237
do that if you're attacking

581
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:31,517
entrepreneurs all the time. You can't
do that if you show up, you know, an hour

582
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,717
late to meet with somebody who's trying
to build a company. You can't do those

583
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,957
kinds of things. And so every part of

584
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,797
the culture, I think, is in support of

585
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,477
we want to build a better future. Like

586
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,837
that is that's why we're here.

587
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,397
>> Haber in his piece firm kind of greater
than fund talks about, you know, a firm

588
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,277
as something that tries to build
a compounding competitive advantage and he

589
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,277
points to one thing for Apollo, one
thing for Goldman. If you had to pick a

590
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,077
thing, what are you compounding? Like
what is the competitive advantage that

591
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,357
you're that you're building over time?

592
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,960
Do you think here? >> Reputation.

593
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,317
>> We Mark and I talked about that from
the day we started the firm. And and by by

594
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,677
the way, there were times when it was
like, well, we're investing an awful lot

595
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,157
in reputation. Um, [laughter] and you

596
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,277
know, it's take a while. Uh, but it is

597
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,757
that's what we compete on. Like when we
when we talk to an entrepreneur um and

598
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:29,197
they're comparing us to another firm,
we say find an entrepreneur that's taken

599
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,237
investment from both firms. See what
they say. Like that's our answer to

600
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,077
everything. Uh we we build reputation.

601
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,677
Every relationship matters. Everybody
who we touch, we try and touch as many

602
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,077
people as we can and we try and um
represent in the very very best way

603
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,397
possible to build reputation over time.

604
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,557
And that compounds and compounds
and compounds across uh entrepreneurs,

605
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,477
across industries, across sectors,

606
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,877
across, you know, everybody from you

607
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,677
know people in the government to uh you

608
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,277
know people in uh in companies that that

609
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,557
we don't invest in um anybody who is

610
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,557
anywhere in the world of technology. We

611
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,997
want them to know us and we want them to
uh think of us as the best uh firm to do

612
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,877
business with. >> Yeah.
And then that and then that that

613
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,317
transfers of course that transfers
from us that transfers to the portfolio

614
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,437
companies right so which is the goal
of it which is that then as a consequence

615
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,957
when a when a company takes investment
from us now they they're basically able

616
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,157
to use our reputation to get themselves
through the through those those those

617
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,197
you know kind of key growth phases with
you know with with potential customers

618
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,397
and with recruits and with downstream
investors and with you know regulators

619
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,117
and with you know all all these
different you know forces in the

620
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,677
external society. Um, so the the
reputation pays off not just for us, but

621
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,797
it pays off in the form of uh what our
what our portfolio companies are able to

622
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,677
do as a result. >> So having
done this for 16 17 years,

623
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,797
like are there things about building
and transferring reputation that you've

624
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,837
learned that are nonobvious? Cuz to me,
like it would almost seem that it's a

625
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,197
battery and if you give it to one
company that messes it up, then the

626
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,397
whole thing kind of falls apart,
but actually it maybe it's like love to be

627
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,677
like super cheap, like it just grows the
more you give it. Are there other things

628
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,157
like that that that you've learned?

629
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,197
Well, look, I I I do think that that's a

630
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,477
correct insight in that, you know, one

631
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,397
mistake is much more powerful than,

632
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,757
you know, one good deed. Um, so, you

633
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,757
know, one person being obnoxious uh

634
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,037
who's in the firm or lying to an
entrepreneur or doing something like

635
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,077
that is causes much more damage than you

636
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,717
can do by doing that correctly. Uh, you

637
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,077
know, five or 10 times. Um, which is why

638
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,157
you have to be so v vigilant about it.

639
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:43,117
Like you you you can't you cannot
tolerate that kind of behavior. [gasps]

640
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:48,237
Um, but I I I think that the the thing the

641
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:49,757
biggest thing that I've learned is it

642
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,197
takes a long time to build a reputation.

643
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,797
Uh, and but once you do it's it's the

644
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,477
most powerful thing. It really does
compound. Um, and just to give you an

645
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,557
example, look, when Mark and I raised

646
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,757
fund one, it was a $300 million fund.

647
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,437
Um, I think it took about six months to

648
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,797
raise. Uh, we had

649
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,797
a lot of meetings. I I can't count how
many meetings. Um, some people did not

650
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,847
treat us very well, as uh Trump might say.
They didn't treat me well at all.

651
00:34:23,930 --> 00:34:24,637
[laughter]

652
00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:28,877
Uh, very badly. Um, and you know, this

653
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:30,957
raise, which was $15 billion, when we

654
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,757
actually raised the fund, I think Mark

655
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,397
did one AMA and I did one AMA [laughter]
and I don't I don't know that I took

656
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,717
another meeting on this fund raise. Uh,

657
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,637
and it was done on the on the

658
00:34:42,720 --> 00:34:47,517
reputation. And so, um, that's a that's

659
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,917
a heck of a change, you know, and look,
a lot of not that we don't we talk to

660
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,517
our investors all the time. I mean,
I've been all around the world uh building

661
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,597
relationships and so forth, but when we

662
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,477
came to ask for money, uh it was raised

663
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:05,197
entirely on a reputation.
>> I think PY, I think the um the external

664
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,237
environment has changed, you know,
enormously. Um and so you know we've

665
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,437
we've lived this you know as you
have and many others we you know this

666
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,797
incredible transformation where tech
both is like much much much larger and

667
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,317
more central now than it was in 2009
when we started but also you know the

668
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,277
the level of let's just say engagement
on the on the part of the world tech is

669
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,237
you know the level of intensity
on everything from you know you know

670
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,677
attacks you know criticism you know
by the way you know completely justifiable

671
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,517
questions you know impact on society you
know the the the intensity level is you

672
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,717
know I don't know it's like a I don't
know it's like a thousandx of what it 16

673
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,677
years ago. And so I I think you I think
to your question, I think we've we've

674
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,197
really tried to kind of rise to that on
both sides. Like we're really trying to

675
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,397
help these, you know, these companies
get to levels of scale that nobody ever

676
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,797
thought was possible before, but at
the same time, we're trying to help them

677
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,957
deal with pressures that previous
generations of founders, you know,

678
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,077
generally didn't have to deal with.

679
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,877
>> Yeah. >> You seem like
you uniquely maybe with

680
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,637
anybody that I know have fun taking,
you know, like engaging in these

681
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:01,277
conversations and I wrote about it
a little bit in the piece, but like kind

682
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,397
of stepping outside the situation and
viewing it. I know like what goes on in

683
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,597
your head in these situations like are
you having as much fun as it looks like?

684
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,557
Does it take a toll every kind of like
taking the arrows? What does it feel

685
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:15,037
like in these? >> Yeah, Ben.
Yeah. Why don't you Yeah, Ben

686
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,197
will give the rational
response. I'll [laughter]

687
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:22,477
>> Yeah, I would say
it's um I mean it gets

688
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:23,997
emotional from time to time, right?

689
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,357
because you you know
what goes into building

690
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,317
these things. Um and you know
the intentions of the people building them

691
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,077
and you know like the kind of impact

692
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,317
they have on the world and then to just

693
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,517
get like you know and a lot of them are

694
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,357
the attacks tend to be in the form
of character assassinations and so forth

695
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,237
and now everybody thinks
Mark's Jewish um [laughter]

696
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,677
you know just so they can attack him more.
It turns out people love to attack

697
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,477
Jewish people. Um, so I I
welcome into him into that. Uh,

698
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,157
>> my new name my new name my new name
Py is in certain political circles Andy uh

699
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:05,437
is as uh is um Andy Horowitz because
people think that people think and and

700
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,557
as French as the internet people think
Andre Horowitz is a Jewish person.

701
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,397
>> Yeah. >> Um and so [clears
throat] I introduced myself as >> Yes.

702
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,197
>> I didn't have that in my Twitter bio.
I did have my Twitter bio. My real name is

703
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,637
Andy is Andy Horowitz but and I
am Jewish but I I took it down.

704
00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:21,997
>> Yeah. But I I I would say mostly it's

705
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,637
just like it's an amazing um

706
00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:28,317
it's just like an amazing thing, an

707
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,477
amazing privilege uh to kind of be in

708
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,677
the center of it all. U and you know,

709
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,157
look, and then the responsibility that
goes with it that you you have to kind

710
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:41,677
of try and help drive the world to the

711
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,957
right answer. Uh,

712
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,397
but like it's

713
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,717
I don't know if fun is the right word,
but like it's special. It's like we've

714
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,277
gotten to a very special position and I

715
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,517
think you know both of us try and take

716
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,917
it as seriously as we can and you look

717
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,117
things happen and we have very very long

718
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,557
discussions about how we should react to

719
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,877
certain things um how we should not
react to certain things um what we can

720
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,877
take a position on what we
shouldn't take a position on

721
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,957
and you know just to have just to be you
know at this stage of life to be able to

722
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,277
be talking about that as opposed to um
the things that we had to talk about

723
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,277
when we were building Netscape or or

724
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,077
Opsswware. Like it's it's amazing. Uh

725
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,717
and uh you know, I definitely wouldn't

726
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:35,837
trade it. Um and and look, we're we've
been through we've been criticized

727
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,717
so much at this point that like it
really it bothers interestingly, which I

728
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,837
never thought I'd see, is it kind of
bothers people inside the firm much more

729
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,957
than it bothers Mark or me. >> Sure.

730
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,517
>> And I am just for the record
studying for my bar mitzvah.

731
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,957
>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah,
the hav Torah. You you need to

732
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:54,957
learn your your hop to tropes.

733
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,957
>> Yeah. [snorts] >> How do
you avoid at this point becoming

734
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,117
a big company? Like this is becoming
a big organization. How do you avoid being

735
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,157
a big company? Google wanted to avoid
that like everyone wants to avoid that.

736
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:08,797
How do you actually do that?

737
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,637
>> Yeah. So I think a lot of that is

738
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:14,477
organizational design. And I mean it.

739
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,437
So if you look at the companies that
didn't feel like big companies for a

740
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,277
long time, they they had very very very

741
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:22,957
thoughtful designs of the organization.

742
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,637
And if you look at the firm um you know

743
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:28,957
the crypto group or the infra group or

744
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,397
the um you know the apps group or the

745
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,957
American Dynamism group, they they all
feel like small companies and they're

746
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,437
they're small companies with a kind
of very specific kind of support.

747
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,677
uh you know in terms of the brand in

748
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,717
terms of uh fundraising and other
kinds of things. Um but you know the the

749
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,957
fundraising team is a small group
and so the every and every group is very

750
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,357
autonomous from every other group like

751
00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:00,477
uh there's integration points
but they're they're very simple and so you

752
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:01,997
know for the most part there's some that

753
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,397
are more complicated than others. Um,

754
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,237
and so, you know, that's what makes it,

755
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,317
you know, the the beauty of a of a small

756
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,837
place is you can just get it done. The

757
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,997
beauty of a big place is you're very
powerful. Um, and so we try and kind of

758
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,157
blend those two. We took a lot. We Mark

759
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:23,117
and I borrowed a lot. Um, we early on we

760
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,917
really studied Huelet Packard. Uh, which

761
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,877
the the original Huelet Packard before
the computer business kind of swallowed

762
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,877
the the company was very much like this.

763
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,437
they had uh they were like a series
of companies inside a company and and

764
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,517
that's a lot how we are. >> How do
you vet GPS or like it seems like

765
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,077
you have to put a lot of trust in the
people that are running the different

766
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,597
teams if the whole thing is reputation
but you need to be able to scale by

767
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,557
having these kind of decentralized teams.
Is there anything that you do

768
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,597
there that's that's unique or or weird

769
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,557
uh that ensures that kind of like
no one group can infect the whole?

770
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,317
Well, I think look, first of all, in

771
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,957
order to lead one of those groups, you

772
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:08,237
just have to have been here and performed
for a long time. So, that that

773
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,357
that's kind of the first thing. So,
we just know you extremely well. We're not

774
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:12,877
we're not interviewing people for that

775
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,477
job from the outside. Like, you can't

776
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:19,437
get that job from the outside. And then,

777
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,837
you know, I I would say because our

778
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,757
culture is so different than other

779
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,077
venture firms, you know, for for better

780
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,557
or worse, we're just different that we

781
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,597
don't hire a lot of outside GPS anymore.

782
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,277
We generally try to hire people at an

783
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,517
earlier stage of their career and kind
of grow them into what we do. Um, and

784
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:46,157
that's worked much much better for us,
I would say, in general. Although we have

785
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:48,397
like all of us came from the outside at

786
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,277
one point of the original cast.

787
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,357
>> That makes sense. Um kind
of winding down here, but Mark, you

788
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,637
said that uh I think you got at one
point for saying the VC was going to be

789
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:02,237
the last job uh in in the world. Uh you

790
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,477
know, if you if the vision of the future
that you believe is true and this is

791
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,237
going to be an institution that that lasts
for a century, like what does A16Z

792
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,197
look like and do a century from now?

793
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,237
>> Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, I start with I
believe I was misqued. I I believe it

794
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,597
was a it was one of these hypothetical
uh thought experiment things that kind

795
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,957
of got got overly um extrapolated, but I

796
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,917
guess I shouldn't just defend myself.
Um so I the point of what I was trying to

797
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,357
get across in that discussion um which
we you know I think if you pull the

798
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,477
original it's it's a longer form
discussion on it. I is goes back to what

799
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:39,197
what Ben said early on which is there
is this repeating pattern in history. I

800
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:44,077
mean we we can find examples of it for
sure going back 500 years. Um uh is this

801
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,797
repeating pattern which is basically
a person with a dream um a person with a

802
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,877
deep level of domain knowledge um and a

803
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,197
dream um operating in a domain with

804
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:58,157
asymmetric payoff um right with with
risk and reward where you know by the

805
00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:01,357
way the dream may be wrong like they
may not be able to do the thing um but if

806
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,037
they can do the thing it will it will
have disproportionately high returns um

807
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,437
you know the traditional institutional
you know places people go to get support

808
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,597
and funding you know for the dream you
know for for for for new projects just

809
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,197
turn it down because you know a bank
can't finance you know a bank a bank

810
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,197
can't issue a loan against something
with a 50% you know 50% chance of a 10x

811
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,717
and 50% chance of failure like a bank
just can't underwrite that so a bank

812
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,317
won't do that big companies you know
for the most part won't do that um uh you

813
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,397
know almost nobody will do that um
but somebody has a dream and and then you

814
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,357
know when the dream works and especially
if you can construct a portfolio of

815
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,237
those dreams and of those people you
know then the expected you know value on

816
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:42,797
that is is going to be very high like
like that's a very special thing. Um I

817
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,997
I've had long conversations with Tyler
Cohen who's very in particular is very

818
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,597
thoughtful on this and he has a term
forget the exact term they use but it's

819
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:54,557
like it's it's like some combination
talent picker project picker um and it's

820
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,717
it's this thing you know it's like we
were talking about earlier about market

821
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,997
size it's this thing where like there is
an analytical scientific component to it

822
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,277
but there's also like an art to it
and there's there there's some intangible

823
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,317
because you're you're dealing with human
beings at a very kind of primordial

824
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,357
level you know kind of you know kind
of very early in the process of doing

825
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:10,877
something that hasn't been done before.

826
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,557
Um, and you know, quite honestly, like,
you know, an early example of this was,

827
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,517
you know, Queen Isabella with Christopher
Columbus, right? Um, and I I

828
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,357
was just like I was just I was trying
to picture the pitch, right? You know,

829
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,357
Christopher Columbus rolls in, right?

830
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,757
And he's like, you know, all right,
you know, here's, you know, I'm going to

831
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,077
find a new rout, you know, route to India.
By the way, you know, there's

832
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,117
like a I don't know, whatever 50 60%
chance that, you know, you'll never hear

833
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,877
from me again. Um, and you know,
you know, you know, maybe maybe I've, you

834
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,197
know, died 2,000 miles away from Spain.

835
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,837
Maybe I, by the way, maybe I just like
ran away with money. It's not like they

836
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,517
had Interpol in those days. >> Yeah.

837
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,517
>> Um and I'm going
to go do that. And then

838
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,997
and then by the way, the fact that that
bet paid off, but like that that like it

839
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:49,917
>> the whole idea was wrong. >> Yeah.

840
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:51,357
>> But the whole the whole idea was wrong.

841
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,197
I mean, the whole idea was wrong.
He discovered a completely different

842
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,677
continent and he himself did not believe
that he had discovered a completely

843
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,717
different continent. >> Right.
Um and I don't even know that

844
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,837
Spain was the main beneficiary of that
in the long run, right? Like and so like

845
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,677
but like you know like she
funded it and like wow, right?

846
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,917
>> And then there's there's >> Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Yes, they they did

847
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,637
they did find some gold. They're very
similar story by the way the Puritans

848
00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:15,677
have a you know the Plymouth Rock
that whole thing the Mayflower they have a

849
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,677
very similar story uh to that it took I
think 20 years to raise the financing uh

850
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,277
to be able to make the uh make the
Mayflower expedition um and they needed

851
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,237
they needed you know backers like
that you know we always talk now about in

852
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,757
venture industry you know the whaling
industry 400 years ago um you know

853
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,637
operated in a very similar way the the
movie industry has always worked this

854
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,197
way the book publishing industry
has always worked this way by the way

855
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,317
politics has always you know worked
political campaigns worked this way that

856
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,917
you know any any any new you know future
president starts out as a long shot,

857
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,797
somebody bets on them. And so there
there's there's this intangible that has

858
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,077
to do with making making these longdated
bets with very uncertain outcomes and

859
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,157
with high failure rates. And I mean like
if yes, like I think what I said in the

860
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:54,877
original interview is like look, if we
can have AI do that, like God bless like

861
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,637
I'm going to like I'm going to hit the
beach and like it's all good. Um but you

862
00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:03,037
know, uh like I guess maybe makes
a falling flame. See, Ben, what you think

863
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,237
of this? The intangibles seem to be
becoming more important, not less

864
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,317
important over time. um it seems to be
becoming more like an art and less like

865
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,637
a science as we go.
Would you agree with that?

866
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:13,997
>> I I definitely think that's right

867
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:19,437
because uh history um is a bad guide. Uh

868
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,837
so you can't like the the the
interesting thing about VC for me

869
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,357
probably the biggest lesson is you
got to be very careful about a highly

870
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:31,437
trained neural net. Um because that's
when you make the mistakes because

871
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,757
things change and I would say things
have changed more rapidly. Like the

872
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,357
thing that we never thought would ever

873
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,677
ever ever go away is a mythical man

874
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:45,317
month. Um you know nine women can't have
a baby in a month. Well with AI you can

875
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:50,477
[laughter] um you know with >> software
>> it's a metaphor for software.

876
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:51,917
>> It's a metaphor for software. Yes.

877
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,997
Exactly. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Uh so
in the old days, right, like no matter how

878
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,837
many engineers you put on a team, you
still what you know more engineers would

879
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:03,997
actually slow down the project
as opposed to speed it up. But now uh so

880
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,477
you couldn't throw money at a problem.

881
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,557
You couldn't throw money at somebody's
technological lead. You'd have to do

882
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,477
something different. Um now you can

883
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:17,917
throw money at it. Uh you know, Elon did
an amazing job of throwing money um at

884
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,117
the foundation model problem and he
caught up very very fast. And that's

885
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,117
something that in the whole history of

886
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:24,557
our industry could never have happened

887
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,397
before. So if you had asked an AI if

888
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,357
Elon had any prayer of catching um open

889
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,757
AI or anthropic, they would have said no

890
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,717
way. Uh and so that's where you're

891
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,837
getting into um I mean maybe if the AI

892
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,237
was smart enough, I suppose, but like
the there are these a lot of it has to

893
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,277
do with like how much do
you believe in the person?

894
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,357
>> Yeah. And then and then the other
part is what we talked about already, but

895
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,677
it's it's the long and twisting path,
you know, the investment is just the

896
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,077
beginning, right? And it's the long and
twisting path that that person and that

897
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,797
company take over time and all the
different ways that we you know, we try

898
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:01,517
to try try to help them succeed. And so
I I think that yeah, I yeah, if yes, I I

899
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:02,877
don't know how to have AI do all that.

900
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:04,557
Um but maybe we'll figure it out.

901
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,717
>> Yeah, you could imagine an AI who could
do it all. Of course, if an AI was smart

902
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,637
at a human about every single thing,
including human psychology, then

903
00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:17,357
certainly could be. you're you're you're
tasked with training this AI. Like what

904
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,837
are the things that you've learned
on this art that you can put into words?

905
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,717
Like if it is, and this is the most
optimistic view of the future I can

906
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,597
think of, the tools are getting better,
but the human piece really really

907
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,197
matters. Like what have you learned
about the art that you can that you can

908
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,717
describe? Like what do you look
for in in a Christopher Columbus?

909
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:37,437
>> Well, I mean, I think that um the first
thing and I you know, I hesitate to to

910
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,717
name things in in some sense because
they're all so different, right? like

911
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,517
Elon is really not at all like uh Mark

912
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,277
Zuckerberg, who's not at all like Ali

913
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,877
Goce, who's not like at all like Brian

914
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,117
Chesky. So like they're all different.

915
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,237
Um and

916
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,957
the but the things that they all do I I

917
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,517
would say is um they all think for
themselves. They're not people who read

918
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,477
the room and try and like figure out
what people want them to do. They they

919
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,757
they have original ideas. So original

920
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,237
idea is probably the thing that every

921
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,317
great entrepreneur has their original

922
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,357
thinkers. Um

923
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:20,317
and then you know they they all also

924
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,557
have some combination of enough

925
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,437
charisma. They're interesting enough um

926
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,157
that people want to follow them. Um

927
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:33,117
because you know ultimately you you kind

928
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,917
of need people to go okay that is the

929
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,717
leader and that's somebody who I want
to work with work for and so forth. Uh so

930
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:45,517
that's those are the things that I would
say almost all of them have and then and

931
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,117
I think all of them have those to be

932
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,357
great. Uh but everything else I know

933
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:56,157
like Steve Jobs is a very different
kind of guy. Um they're all they're all

934
00:49:56,240 --> 00:50:00,237
different I would say very like Steve Jo
is nothing like Andy Grove like nothing

935
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,957
uh but you know they're both great.

936
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,637
>> To close us out I guess from from each
of you what is the thing that you're

937
00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:10,397
personally most excited about in the next
kind of couple of years of A16Z but

938
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,357
just tech more broadly. Well, I mean I

939
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,517
mean you know you Mark Mark had a great
line like well this is on the order of

940
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,677
like the steam engine or electricity or

941
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,317
like like this is such a big invention

942
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,117
um that we're going to end up in a

943
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,437
different world and the thing that's

944
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,037
most exciting to me about it is

945
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:32,717
you know I wouldn't want to live in the

946
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,357
pre-electricity world. Um like I like

947
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,637
this world way way way better. And so I

948
00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:42,957
think that like odds are we're going
to get to a world that's just way way

949
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,957
better than we can even like we can't
even get our heads around it, which is

950
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:52,317
why it freaks people out. Like all these
stuff that we have to do and so forth

951
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,477
that we've just learned to live with
that sucks um isn't going to be required

952
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:58,877
anymore. And so like you know what does

953
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:00,957
that mean? What do we think of then?

954
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,837
Like what does life become? It could be

955
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:08,957
uh you know super exciting. Now the one
thing with humans that's a little messed

956
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,717
up is you know if
that takes us too far away

957
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,717
like one of the you know too far away

958
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:20,957
from some grounded purpose uh about um

959
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,237
you know and beliefs uh and spirituality

960
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,957
then you know you can attach on to some
dumb stuff. Uh, so you know that that

961
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:30,717
that would be actually my only worry.

962
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,397
But I think life just the quality
of life for everybody is about to get like

963
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,797
way way better than it's ever been.

964
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:38,797
>> I'm excited about the Zoomers.

965
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,837
>> I

966
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:46,317
am psyched for the Zoomers. Um, I was
with a I was with a a founder a founder

967
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,597
team the other day. Um, and I was who
are Zoomers and I was explaining to

968
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,237
them, you know, why the Zoomers are so
much better than the millennials and why

969
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,157
they're going to save us and like
the whole thing is going to be great. This

970
00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:56,957
is so great. And of course they're just
like staring at me like I'm speaking

971
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,997
Greek because like they you know they're
you know they exper you know they just

972
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,197
think like millennials are like old farts
that are like completely out of touch.

973
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,797
>> Um and of course you know us Ben and I
are geners. We might as well be you know

974
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,517
stone age. Um and I
was like but I was like

975
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,077
>> but I was like this is what's so great
about the zoomers like they just like

976
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,117
they're they're it's the it's the post I

977
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,077
would describe it as 2015 to 2024 was

978
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,477
just it was a very very strange period.

979
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:25,357
Uh and a lot of just things got really
weird. Um, and the Zoomers are the

980
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,957
generation that basically was on the
receiving end of that. And I they're at

981
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,237
least for the Zoomers we get to deal
with, like they're just not having it.

982
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,037
Um, and they're not walking around
feeling guilty about everything all the

983
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,597
time. They're not feeling like they
have to like deny that they want to be

984
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,397
successful. You know, they don't have
any of the moral, you know, kind of hair

985
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,317
short stuff. Um, they're just like
they're they're if anything is like

986
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,397
that, too. Gen X kind of let go of all

987
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,997
the craziness of the 60s and early 70s.

988
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,957
>> Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Gen Right. Exactly. Gen X was the reaction

989
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,437
of the boomers in the same way the Zoomers
are reaction to the millennials.

990
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:59,277
Um and so the the the Zoomer founders
that we get to deal with I my view is

991
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,797
like it's the best. It's the best. It's
the best, most competent, most capable.

992
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,557
By the way, they're just like incredibly
well. They come in all just incredibly

993
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,277
well trained and educated because they
grew up online. You know, they've seen,

994
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,837
you know, a thousand hours of YouTube
videos from all the great, you know,

995
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,717
people in tech talking about how to do
everything. You know, they just know so

996
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,157
much more than previous generations
of founders did. Um and you know, they're

997
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:21,037
by the way, they're now they're all AI
native. um you know they all you know

998
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,917
basically learned AI from scratch and you
know in college and you know they're

999
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,677
coming out and they they totally
understand it. Um and so and they're

1000
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:31,357
just like tremendously fired up and like
completely you know completely you know

1001
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,997
they wear their you know they wear
their heart in their sleeve. They're like

1002
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:35,597
they're they're going to build something
they're going to build something great

1003
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,557
and they're completely unapologetic
about it. Uh they're very forceful.

1004
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,917
They're very determined. Um yeah I I
I just think it's fantastic. I've been

1005
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:46,237
waiting this Eric and Ben will tell
you I've been waiting for this for

1006
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,477
>> for a long time. We may have to edit
this out, but one of the things I do

1007
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:52,877
really like about the Zoomers, I haven't

1008
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:57,617
ever heard anybody say anything like,
"I'm going to do well by doing good."

1009
00:53:57,700 --> 00:54:01,677
[laughter] Like, you should
never say that >> No. No.

1010
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,357
>> Sense of humor, too. They're funny.

1011
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:04,957
>> Yes. Yes.
They're extremely funny. Well,

1012
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,117
they're extremely funny. They They get it.
They get They live through They were

1013
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,517
on the receiving end of just
a tremendous amount of and and

1014
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,037
they're just like they're just not
having it. Um, and so it's just I find

1015
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,717
it just like tremendously exciting uh
to be able to work with them. And if if I

1016
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,477
if I had total control over my time,
it would be 100% spent with Zoomer.

1017
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,317
>> Well, I appreciate you spending an hour
with a millennial. This was a ton of

1018
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:28,157
fun. Thank you for letting me write
about uh about a 16Z and and thanks for

1019
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:30,877
thanks for the conversation.
>> We're we're talking about all your

1020
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,717
future guests. >> Exactly.
Becky, this was an excellent

1021
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,397
piece. Thank you so much for writing.

1022
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:41,720
>> Yeah. My pleasure. 100%. Okay.