WEBVTT 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:02.637 Well, >> without our first guest of the show, 00:00:02.720 --> 00:00:06.477 >> Sam Alman, the CEO of OpenAI. He's in the ream waiting room. Welcome to the 00:00:06.560 --> 00:00:07.997 show, Sam. How are you doing? >> Welcome back. 00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:09.517 >> Good. Thank you guys for having me back. 00:00:09.600 --> 00:00:10.877 >> Thanks so much. >> Big day. 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:15.037 >> Big day. Kick us off with where should we start? Should we start with uh the 00:00:15.120 --> 00:00:19.117 model or Frontier? >> Can we start with the model just cuz I'm having fun with it? 00:00:19.200 --> 00:00:21.517 >> Yeah, absolutely. Break it down. What' you launch? 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:25.197 >> Uh so we launched 5.3 Codeex. It is I think the best coding model in the 00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:29.277 world. We took a lot of the feedback that people had about 5.2 uh 5.2 two 00:00:29.360 --> 00:00:33.037 codecs and got it into one model. It is much smarter at programming, but it's 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:36.637 also way faster. You can interact with it mid turn. I think it's got a much 00:00:36.720 --> 00:00:39.357 better personality. >> Um, it's really good at computer use. 00:00:39.440 --> 00:00:42.957 Uh, so it feels like a very big step forward. It was funny as we were uh 00:00:43.040 --> 00:00:45.437 deploying it this morning. A couple of 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:49.997 very uh like extremely 00:00:50.080 --> 00:00:52.557 experts at using these models noticed and said, "Man, something's really 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:55.197 different with codeex." And they like caught it mid deploy. So, I think you 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:57.517 can really feel it quickly. >> That's great. Oh, you're saying people 00:00:57.600 --> 00:00:59.437 outside of OpenAI just everyday use. 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:02.717 >> Yeah, I like the shower that we put it out before we, you know, 00:01:02.800 --> 00:01:06.397 >> talk about uh interacting with it mid turn. How does that work? Why is that 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:08.477 important? What does that unlock? 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:09.917 >> So, people are starting to use these 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:13.277 these tools for very long pieces of work 00:01:13.360 --> 00:01:15.757 at one time, you know, multi-hour tasks. 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:18.717 And sometimes you don't specify it correctly, right? Sometimes something's 00:01:18.800 --> 00:01:22.477 not set up right, something just screws up. the ability they they can do amazing 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:25.597 things with no steering but they can do much more amazing things if you steer 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:29.677 them along the way. Uh so this has been this is one of the things I felt most 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:33.277 new about this model. >> So talk about orchestration how this 00:01:33.360 --> 00:01:36.397 fits into Frontier because I >> imagine one second is it's notable like 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:38.797 if you see a co-orker making a mistake 00:01:38.880 --> 00:01:43.437 and you don't interrupt them that's rude right like it's it's it's deeply 00:01:43.520 --> 00:01:46.557 inefficient. >> It is incredible what these models can 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:51.117 do without any feedback. Like if you think about a new co-orker especially um 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:53.837 you know you train them and you give them a lot of feedback early on and they 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.357 learn the job and you correct them and they they kind of get practice and the 00:01:57.440 --> 00:02:01.437 models they will soon do that but right now they don't do that. So we just rely 00:02:01.520 --> 00:02:05.277 on either they get it right one shot or we collect them correct them along the way. 00:02:05.360 --> 00:02:09.437 >> Yeah. So uh you know I think there's a lot of people that are running multiple 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:12.637 agents and multiple tabs. They're starting to think about orchestration. 00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:17.037 Feels like Frontier is a piece of that, but if you're interacting with a model 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:19.117 that's running midturn, like how does 00:02:19.200 --> 00:02:21.357 the user experience change for 00:02:21.440 --> 00:02:24.397 developers with 5.3 and then what will 00:02:24.480 --> 00:02:27.277 it look like in the frontier world? 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:31.357 I I think we will be heading towards a workflow where a lot of people just feel 00:02:31.440 --> 00:02:33.997 like they're managing a team of agents and they'll keep as the agents get 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:39.117 better, they'll keep operating at a higher and higher level of abstraction, which 00:02:39.200 --> 00:02:42.237 at least watching what's happening so far is a is a jump that people are going 00:02:42.320 --> 00:02:46.877 to make >> pretty well. Um the 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:48.877 the models are so good now there's such 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:51.677 a capability overhang that building 00:02:51.760 --> 00:02:55.677 better tools to let people um do that 00:02:55.760 --> 00:02:59.677 which the Codex app that we launched on Monday was a great step forward for will 00:02:59.760 --> 00:03:04.717 be very very important but you will be managing very complex workflows the 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:07.757 agents will keep getting better so you'll keep working at the maximum of 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:11.357 your management bandwidth or cognitive ability to keep track of all the stuff 00:03:11.440 --> 00:03:15.037 um and the tools to make that easy to do will matter 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:18.237 uh I think more than intelligence for a little while because there's such an 00:03:18.320 --> 00:03:19.917 intelligence overhang already. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:21.597 >> What's the role of a forward deployed 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:25.037 engineer today at OpenAI towards the end 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:27.677 of the year? Capability overhang that 00:03:27.760 --> 00:03:30.477 feels like raw meat for a for a forward 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:32.317 deployed engineer. It's like the like 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:34.957 they solve that problem, right? 00:03:35.040 --> 00:03:38.877 >> Yeah. I mean look eventually the models will get so good that they'll help 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:41.997 companies deploy themselves and the four deployed engineers will again get to 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:45.997 work at a higher level of abstraction >> but for now you go into a company that 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:50.477 is not AI native and say uh okay you've said you want us 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:53.997 >> you know they say they want to deploy AI um they really are not sure what to do 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:56.637 how do I hook this up to my systems do I 00:03:56.720 --> 00:04:01.197 need to fine-tune a model on my codebase uh how do I think about orchestrating 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:04.477 agents and using things from different companies most of all or at least what 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:09.037 we hear most frequently is how do I think about security of my data and how 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:12.717 do I know that these like AI co-working agents are not going to go access a 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:15.997 bunch of information and share it in ways they shouldn't or get you know a 00:04:16.080 --> 00:04:17.997 context exploit or something like that. 00:04:18.080 --> 00:04:20.877 So the forward engineers take this 00:04:20.960 --> 00:04:25.357 incredible new technology and uh a platform like Frontier and say we will 00:04:25.440 --> 00:04:29.597 connect your company to an AI platform so that you can use all these agents and 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:31.197 workflows and everything else you want. 00:04:31.280 --> 00:04:35.917 How important are these metaphors or how temporary are they? I was very 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:39.437 interested in reading about Gas Town and you have these pole cats and it's this 00:04:39.520 --> 00:04:44.877 whole Mad Max world and uh that feels like maybe just a temporary aberration 00:04:44.960 --> 00:04:48.717 where you're setting up agents for specific tasks but also that could be 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:52.397 incredibly valuable in explaining to a large corporation of how they're going 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:55.517 to integrate AI across the whole organization. 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.877 Yeah, I 00:04:58.960 --> 00:05:02.557 I suspect like everything else that's happening 00:05:02.640 --> 00:05:07.037 when an industry is moving so fast, all of this is somewhat temporary on like a 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:08.397 long enough time scale. 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.357 >> Um, and 00:05:11.440 --> 00:05:16.637 you as these models become more capable and these agents are operating on very 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:19.917 long time horizons with the ability to just kind of figure it out and our trust 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:23.997 and their robustness keeps going up. Um, then maybe you don't need a lot of the 00:05:24.080 --> 00:05:25.837 abstractions we need today. You know, 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:28.397 maybe you just like have a a single AI 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:31.917 bot that runs at your company and you 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:35.517 can say, "Hey, I want to like launch this new product and it does everything 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:38.957 an ambitious person would do." Um, but that's not where we are today. So, today 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:42.077 we have to >> yeah, >> put in a little more work to get the pieces put together. 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:46.237 >> Yeah. How are you thinking about the the the meter benchmark for long task 00:05:46.320 --> 00:05:50.717 horizon? Uh, you're at the top of the charts. Uh, at the same time, it feels 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:55.117 like we might need a new chart if we're talking about agent swarms because 00:05:55.200 --> 00:05:59.837 they'll be able to do things that go for weeks, but they will subdivide the work. 00:05:59.920 --> 00:06:03.117 There's some subdivision that happens within a reasoning model, but it doesn't 00:06:03.200 --> 00:06:06.557 truly parallelize, at least that I'm aware of. So, what does it look like in 00:06:06.640 --> 00:06:11.437 a world where you go to a model, but now it's spinning up a whole bunch of 00:06:11.520 --> 00:06:15.197 different models underneath? >> I think you have there's two of of the 00:06:15.280 --> 00:06:18.237 key insights of the whole field are in this question. Number one, uh the 00:06:18.320 --> 00:06:20.157 implication that no chart in AI lasts 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:25.437 more than a few years is right. And like this one kind of, you know, we'll see 00:06:25.520 --> 00:06:26.877 how much longer it's really useful. 00:06:26.960 --> 00:06:32.397 >> Yeah. >> The second is >> a lot of people thought that, okay, 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:35.677 we're going to just need a super long task and a super long task horizon, so 00:06:35.760 --> 00:06:39.757 we need a super long context. And definitely what people have already seen 00:06:39.840 --> 00:06:42.637 with coding agents is by agents breaking 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:46.797 up work, orchestrating it well, farming it off to sub agents. even with the 00:06:46.880 --> 00:06:50.477 current limitations of the technology, we can do something which should not be 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:54.317 surprising because it's similar to how people do things and get amazing amounts 00:06:54.400 --> 00:07:00.920 of work done. So that's been cool to watch. I think that will keep going. Um 00:07:01.520 --> 00:07:05.517 a a joke that some people at OpenAI make is that soon the chart that matters is 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:07.437 just going to be GDP impact. >> Yeah. 00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:10.877 >> And then the question is what's the one that comes after that? But everything 00:07:10.960 --> 00:07:14.237 else, these lot of these proxy metrics, there's now so much economic value in 00:07:14.320 --> 00:07:16.637 what the models are doing. What do you think could come after? 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:18.317 >> I have no idea. Do you have an opinion? 00:07:18.400 --> 00:07:20.397 >> Happiness. >> I don't know. When you look When you 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:23.677 look back at some of your when you look back at some of your blog posts from 10 00:07:23.760 --> 00:07:26.717 years ago, your predictions were usually pretty on point. 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:28.317 >> Yeah. >> Maybe it's hard to predict. 00:07:28.400 --> 00:07:33.437 >> Thank you. Thank you. >> I uh >> specifically the specifically the merge 00:07:33.520 --> 00:07:36.237 basically. There's a bunch that are good. Like right now we're getting you 00:07:36.320 --> 00:07:38.317 know thousands of messages in the chat 00:07:38.400 --> 00:07:41.437 about 40 and you predicted in 2016 that 00:07:41.520 --> 00:07:44.557 people could uh would would become uh 00:07:44.640 --> 00:07:46.877 you know very attached to a chatbot. 00:07:46.960 --> 00:07:49.197 >> Yeah. I'm working on like a big 00:07:49.280 --> 00:07:51.997 prediction blog post for the next 10 00:07:52.080 --> 00:07:57.117 years seems too far, but the next five uh but because it's like I'm sure a lot 00:07:57.200 --> 00:08:01.517 of it'll be wrong and it >> you know it's it's still fun to try. Um 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:03.837 the 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:08.637 >> the the sort of like relationships with chatbots clearly that's something now we 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:10.237 got to worry about more and is no longer 00:08:10.320 --> 00:08:14.317 a abstract concept. Um the even the 00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:17.277 question of what comes after GDP like 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:19.117 one reason I think that's interesting is 00:08:19.200 --> 00:08:24.397 the way we measure GDP now could start going down even though quality of life 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:27.997 goes way up. >> Sure. >> And we don't have a lot of practice with 00:08:28.080 --> 00:08:32.637 things like that. But the the the massively deflationary 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:37.437 >> not just Europe we want quality of life going up too just going down you know. 00:08:37.520 --> 00:08:41.117 >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, >> switching gears, uh, what do you think 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:45.997 about the work that that the Neol boom, the research efforts that are happening 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:50.317 all over Silicon Valley? It feels like there's there's an acknowledgment that 00:08:50.400 --> 00:08:54.157 there's research breakthroughs that need to happen and everyone's taking 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:56.157 different uh, shots at those. Do you 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:01.277 think that those companies will just find a breakthrough and join a lab or 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:04.557 launch their own products? >> I think it's fantastic. First of all, 00:09:04.640 --> 00:09:08.317 um, one of the meta things that we wanted to do when we started with OpenAI, 00:09:08.400 --> 00:09:11.437 >> yeah, >> is >> when we started OpenAI is like 00:09:11.520 --> 00:09:14.477 >> there had been a period where the technology industry and Silicon Valley 00:09:14.560 --> 00:09:17.437 in particular was amazing at new research labs or just doing new research 00:09:17.520 --> 00:09:20.477 in industry in general >> and then it kind of fell apart and there 00:09:20.560 --> 00:09:23.597 hadn't been a good one in a while and part of what we hope to show and this 00:09:23.680 --> 00:09:27.037 was not only us like a lot of people were excited about new research labs 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:30.877 >> is that industry could do research again. So seeing that now become like 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:34.557 fashionable in all of these new labs, I think it's totally awesome. Some will 00:09:34.640 --> 00:09:38.557 succeed, some will fail, some will going to go into some other effort, but uh 00:09:38.640 --> 00:09:43.117 having industry support research in, you know, startup style, I think it's 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.157 wonderful. >> Over the next two years, would you 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:48.157 expect to acquire more individual 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:53.480 product companies or more research labs? 00:09:54.880 --> 00:09:57.037 >> Good question. 00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.037 I don't have a strong opinion there. I 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:01.997 would bet 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:06.717 well I'd say the very best ones will often look like a mixture of both. Um 00:10:06.800 --> 00:10:09.917 like the the the one that I have in mind right now is something that very much 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:12.077 looks like a a mixture of both. So maybe 00:10:12.160 --> 00:10:17.197 that's may maybe the shape of things to come is the really truly extraordinary 00:10:17.280 --> 00:10:20.157 product work will have more and more of a research component 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:22.397 >> and it'll be kind of a more of a hybrid thing. 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.717 >> Is data the new oil? Is there value? We were joking a couple days ago. 00:10:26.800 --> 00:10:29.517 >> They have a bunch of data, but they don't understand AI. They don't know how 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:33.037 to monetize. >> Well, and that phrase was effectively wasted a decade ago. 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:35.117 >> Yeah. >> And so to say it now sounds really 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:38.157 silly, but it feels like it could be more true now than ever. 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:42.477 >> Yeah. >> Um, you know, certainly. Yeah, man. They 00:10:42.560 --> 00:10:45.117 really did waste it a decade ago. I was just thinking of the kind of people that 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:46.717 used to say that came out of it. 00:10:46.800 --> 00:10:48.637 >> TED talks, you you're not supposed to 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:49.917 call them out. 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:53.837 >> They're nice people over at TED. Uh, 00:10:53.920 --> 00:10:55.677 you know, definitely like the the sort 00:10:55.760 --> 00:11:00.397 of the magic relationship of this last 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:01.517 eight years, whatever you want to call 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:04.557 it, has has been like, you know, that we 00:11:04.640 --> 00:11:08.077 can put in more and more resources, 00:11:08.160 --> 00:11:10.317 compute, data, 00:11:10.400 --> 00:11:13.197 new ideas, whatever into creating uh an 00:11:13.280 --> 00:11:17.917 artifact and it gets like the log of it gets better. Mhm. 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:21.277 >> Um, so you can throw in, you know, that's why we have this huge exponential 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.557 increase in resources, but we keep getting better and better models. And 00:11:24.640 --> 00:11:28.957 for all of the concern people have about it's it's going to like top out or it's 00:11:29.040 --> 00:11:32.317 slowing down or whatever, like no one's been right about that. I mean, sometimes 00:11:32.400 --> 00:11:35.757 they it looked like they were for a couple of months as we digested a new 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:38.317 model or came to a new form factor, but 00:11:38.400 --> 00:11:41.757 it has been an incredibly smooth last 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:46.317 six or eight years of this. uh what those resources are. There can be some 00:11:46.400 --> 00:11:50.077 trade-off between, you know, sometimes it's better to spend your money on 00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:55.037 better data, sometimes on more compute, sometimes something else. On the whole, 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:59.357 uh compute power is the new oil is the 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:02.157 statement that feels closest to true to me, 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:04.077 >> but there will be other parts too. 00:12:04.160 --> 00:12:08.157 >> Makes sense. Is software dead? 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:12.237 >> It's different. It's definitely not dead. Um, but what software, like how 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:16.717 you create it, how you're going to use it, how much you're going to have written 00:12:16.800 --> 00:12:21.437 for you each time you need it versus how much you'll want sort of a consistent UX. 00:12:21.520 --> 00:12:24.797 >> Yeah. >> Uh, that's all going to change. Um, you 00:12:24.880 --> 00:12:29.197 know, there have been a number of these like big sell-offs of SAS stocks over 00:12:29.280 --> 00:12:34.157 the last few years as these models have rolled out. Um, there I expect there 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:37.437 will continue to be more. I expect there will be big booms in software. I think 00:12:37.520 --> 00:12:39.997 it's just going to be volatile for a while. Mhm. 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:43.517 >> As people figure out what this um looks 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:47.597 like, the statement that uh someone said to me that has stuck in my mind most 00:12:47.680 --> 00:12:51.437 these last couple of weeks is that every company is an API company now whether 00:12:51.520 --> 00:12:53.037 they want to be or not. >> Oh yeah. 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:56.797 >> Um because agents are just going to be able to >> write a CS. 00:12:56.880 --> 00:13:00.317 >> Yeah. We had we had D we had D from Uber on yesterday and it he had a pretty 00:13:00.400 --> 00:13:04.077 refreshing kind of approach. We were asking about integrating agents with 00:13:04.160 --> 00:13:08.637 Uber and and he recognized that yeah, the ad business could potentially be 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:13.597 threatened if you can order an Uber and chatbt, but he basically said 00:13:13.680 --> 00:13:15.517 >> like you have to think of the consumer. 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:19.757 >> The consumer wants to order an Uber via their preferred agent. You should let 00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:23.357 them otherwise you're you're going to have other problems. 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:27.277 >> Yeah, that that is the right take for sure. And I don't or I think so at least. 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:29.917 >> And >> you know, we've been through platform 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.037 shifts like this before where you I mean Uber wouldn't have existed without one. 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.837 It wasn't until the iPhone where you could like have it make sense to order 00:13:35.920 --> 00:13:38.797 an Uber to right where you were uh as you're out in the world. 00:13:38.880 --> 00:13:40.797 >> Um so I think there will be totally new 00:13:40.880 --> 00:13:42.397 things that happen. other things you'll 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:46.077 use in new ways. But definitely as I've 00:13:46.160 --> 00:13:49.517 started using Codex, my 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:53.357 excitement about having agents go off and do things for me and still use other 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:56.477 services, pay other services. I'm sure we'll need to figure out new business 00:13:56.560 --> 00:14:00.237 models and how revenue gets shared around, but that will happen. 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:01.837 >> Yeah. Talk more about desktop. 00:14:01.920 --> 00:14:05.117 >> One more question on on SAS. Have any uh 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:10.237 public market SAS companies tried to get a soft landing with OpenAI? M and do you 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:14.557 think there's any there's there's any value just let's say 00:14:14.640 --> 00:14:18.397 >> that I'm no one has no public SAS companies that I'm aware of have tried 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.477 that >> with open AI um look >> but some of them some of them some of 00:14:22.560 --> 00:14:24.077 them will certainly be 00:14:24.160 --> 00:14:26.877 >> durable and and are on sale right now 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:29.757 and and potentially just need new energy 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:34.237 and and uh need kind of a new an entirely new approach and maybe OpenAI 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:37.517 could provide that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think some will be incredibly 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:42.557 valuable. Some do feel like a thinner layer now. Um, but I don't know like I 00:14:42.640 --> 00:14:46.877 was talking recently to a bunch of SAS companies and 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.477 they do not they do not feel unexited like they're like we're going to go 00:14:50.560 --> 00:14:54.157 through a big transformation here and you know yeah sure other people can 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.677 instantly write software now but so can we and we got a great system of record 00:14:57.760 --> 00:15:01.197 and seems reasonable. Some won't make it of course. 00:15:01.280 --> 00:15:03.517 >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh yeah. Talk more about the 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.917 the Codex desktop roll out. It feels 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:09.757 like um uh you know successful amount of 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:13.277 downloads but but key like a shift for 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.797 you know people who are maybe lightly technical but don't have time to set up 00:15:16.880 --> 00:15:19.437 an IDE and configure an environment to 00:15:19.520 --> 00:15:21.997 actually start writing software. I want 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.317 to know about plans to integrate to the 00:15:24.400 --> 00:15:26.717 phone. That was a big moment I think for 00:15:26.800 --> 00:15:29.197 a lot of people with the the clawedbot, 00:15:29.280 --> 00:15:32.317 moltbot, open claw thing was like, oh, I 00:15:32.400 --> 00:15:36.237 can text something and it will go and write code and that's valuable and that 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:38.637 unlocks a new agentic experience. Like 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:43.517 where do you see the codeex desktop ecosystem going? 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:47.197 >> I am so 00:15:47.280 --> 00:15:51.757 codex desktop has been a a somewhat of a surprise to me um in terms of how much 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.837 people love it, including how much I love it myself. you know, the I think 00:15:55.920 --> 00:15:59.837 it's a great example of 10% of polish of the experience of using these models, 00:15:59.920 --> 00:16:00.797 especially when there's so much 00:16:00.880 --> 00:16:04.317 capability overhang goes an extremely 00:16:04.400 --> 00:16:09.677 long way to what you can build and how how you interact with this stuff. Um, of 00:16:09.760 --> 00:16:12.717 course, we should have an ability to kick off new tasks from mobile and we'll 00:16:12.800 --> 00:16:16.237 do that. I mean I I mean really what you want is like your single AI that's 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:20.077 working for you on a unified backend, access to all of your data and your 00:16:20.160 --> 00:16:24.157 ideas and your stuff and your memory and your all the context and the ability to 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:28.557 work across a lot of surfaces and often you'll be at your desktop. Um often 00:16:28.640 --> 00:16:30.237 you'll be on your phone and you just 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.197 want to add something in. Um 00:16:33.280 --> 00:16:36.557 but it is a pretty 00:16:36.640 --> 00:16:40.717 profound shift in my own workflow, not just for coding tasks, but more general 00:16:40.800 --> 00:16:44.157 purpose tasks. It's still kind of hard to use if you're not at least reasonably 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:48.077 technical. But obviously, we'll find a version of this product that can do 00:16:48.160 --> 00:16:51.917 other knowledge work tasks and control your computer and things like that where 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:55.997 you don't have to be and we'll and it'll bring the magic of building stuff really 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.917 to a lot of people because even if you never look at code, you'll be able to 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.677 build something reasonably sophisticated. One of the things that I 00:17:03.760 --> 00:17:06.717 have built when I was playing around with the new codeex app is this thing I 00:17:06.800 --> 00:17:11.037 had always wanted just like this magic autocompleting to-do list. 00:17:11.120 --> 00:17:15.197 I I really work with to-do lists and this idea that I could just put tasks in 00:17:15.280 --> 00:17:17.917 and it would try to go do them. If it could complete them, it could complete 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.037 them. If it needed questions, it would ask me questions. If it needed, you 00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:25.917 know, if I had to do something, I could still do it the oldfashioned way. But an 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.877 interface like that where, you know, all the stuff you want to do, you just sort 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:32.957 of explain to a computer or your AI and it tries to go off and do them. And 00:17:33.040 --> 00:17:36.797 sure, if you're on your phone, you're going to just add a a task on your phone 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:39.357 or, you know, if you want to easily import something from email, you're 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:41.677 going to do that. like felt feels really 00:17:41.760 --> 00:17:44.717 good. So, I'm excited about all of the 00:17:44.800 --> 00:17:48.957 ways that this will just become a general knowledge work agent. 00:17:49.040 --> 00:17:49.357 >> Yeah. 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:53.837 >> Were you uh unsurprised to see a product 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:57.437 like Open Claw come from open source? 00:17:57.520 --> 00:18:01.837 because it's certainly that kind of user experience is not I would imagine this 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:06.637 is something that you knew would be a thing and yet I think part of the the 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:11.277 magic of open claw is that it would be very very difficult for a large tech 00:18:11.360 --> 00:18:13.597 company >> Peter didn't make many phone calls to 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:18.397 hyperscalers to say hey I'm going to be integrating your API >> it just went 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.477 >> and you guys you know and and when I think back on like the sky acquisition 00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:26.157 this this kind of experience was probably very top of mind and things 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.477 that you're working towards internally. 00:18:28.560 --> 00:18:31.677 >> I love the spirit of everything about OpenClaw. 00:18:31.760 --> 00:18:33.837 >> Yeah. >> And you are totally right that it's much 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:37.917 easier to imagine a one person open source project doing something like that 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.637 than a company who is going to be afraid 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:43.117 of lawsuits and data privacy and 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:47.677 everything else. Um you know there like I think this is kind of how innovation 00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:51.357 works there. Something like that starts is clearly amazing. There will be a way 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:55.117 to make a mass market version of that product, but letting the builders build 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:59.197 the equivalent of the homerew homebrew computer club spirit go here is so 00:18:59.280 --> 00:19:02.557 important. >> Yeah, totally. Uh, can we switch to 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:05.677 social? I feel like if I Google Sam 00:19:05.760 --> 00:19:09.037 Alman social, I get pure AI and Sora and 00:19:09.120 --> 00:19:11.357 then also demand or or predictions about 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:14.477 a humanly social network. Where do you 00:19:14.560 --> 00:19:18.717 see social going broadly? How do you want to integrate it with it and power 00:19:18.800 --> 00:19:20.637 it in the future? 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:23.597 I the mold book thing was like a very 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:25.917 interesting social experiment to watch. 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:29.677 Uh and I think points to 00:19:29.760 --> 00:19:31.837 agents interacting in some sort of 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:37.197 social space hopefully on behalf of >> people at least in some degrees uh could 00:19:37.280 --> 00:19:40.797 be quite interesting. I don't think we know what to do there yet but it feels 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:43.437 like social is going to change 00:19:43.520 --> 00:19:48.637 >> a lot. Um, and I am interested in the space of what a social experience can 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:52.477 look like when you know your agent is talking to my agent and coming up with 00:19:52.560 --> 00:19:54.957 new stuff. Um, clearly putting like a 00:19:55.040 --> 00:19:59.597 lot of AI bots on the existing social platforms is just making everyone crazy 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:01.917 and not that fun. So that's not the right answer. Yeah. 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.837 >> But >> I think we can design something new for 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:10.317 what this technology is capable of that will feel good and useful. 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:14.717 >> Yeah. Is there is there a solution to the bot problem that's just all the labs 00:20:14.800 --> 00:20:18.877 sort of integrating with all the other platforms and and even if you can't 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:23.277 detect it's AI generated you can literally say we just we just generated 00:20:23.360 --> 00:20:26.157 those tokens like those exact tokens are in our database 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:29.837 >> you can't do that because their open source models are like good enough to 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:33.037 write at this point >> um 00:20:33.120 --> 00:20:37.277 >> I am excited about sort of like assertion of humanity 00:20:37.360 --> 00:20:41.437 >> instead of trying to like detection of AI as a as a thing here. I don't know if 00:20:41.520 --> 00:20:44.877 the social platforms it's like in their interest to solve this. It is cause it's 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:47.677 creating like at least in the short term it creates like a lot of engagement and 00:20:47.760 --> 00:20:52.077 increased usage. So, um I believe they could solve it if they wanted to. I'm 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.917 not sure it's in their interest. I'm actually not even like it is I don't 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:59.437 like it, but it is some people do seem to enjoy it. 00:20:59.520 --> 00:21:01.277 >> Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more 00:21:01.360 --> 00:21:04.797 about where Sora as as a video 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:07.837 generation model is going? It feels like 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.277 tool use is maybe under discussed. You 00:21:11.360 --> 00:21:13.437 know, adding adding reasoning. It's not 00:21:13.520 --> 00:21:16.237 just the diffusion model. It's giving 00:21:16.320 --> 00:21:21.197 these models the ability to make linear cuts and overlay motion graphics. And 00:21:21.280 --> 00:21:23.197 when I scroll, the Instagram reels that 00:21:23.280 --> 00:21:28.317 I see, they're like vibe reels with cut cutouts and it flips negative and it's 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:30.957 all color graded and it's stuff that like, yeah, you could probably diffuse 00:21:31.040 --> 00:21:35.837 it all, but it's pretty cool just to teach a model to also use After Effects 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:39.917 or whatever video, you know, m motion graphics suite you want to use. Uh, is 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.197 that an interesting unlock? What do you see going on? 00:21:43.280 --> 00:21:47.517 >> Um, so all of that stuff will happen and I agree with you, the models will get 00:21:47.600 --> 00:21:52.077 really great at doing that. People love generating videos. I would say people, 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:55.677 we have not yet found a way that people really love watching other people's 00:21:55.760 --> 00:21:59.117 videos. This is true for a lot of other AI like they love to, 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.077 >> you know, people love talking to chatbt or whatever. 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.677 >> It's not that compelling for most people 00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:06.077 to like read other people's generation. 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:07.117 So, I think there is something. 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:10.877 >> But isn't that for all writing and all video? 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.477 >> Yeah, it seems stronger to me in this case than the general case. But maybe 00:22:14.560 --> 00:22:16.877 you're right. Maybe this is the >> Yeah, but if but if if somebody says, 00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:20.957 "Hey, I generated a 15-minute video. I I'm really excited for you to watch it." 00:22:21.040 --> 00:22:25.357 And you watch the first 10 seconds and you're not that captured by it. I don't 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:27.517 care that it was humanmade. I don't necessarily 00:22:27.600 --> 00:22:31.197 >> Yeah, may may right and it this is it's not a it's not a special case. 00:22:31.280 --> 00:22:34.317 >> Do you see that in the data with uh with Sora downloads? because I've noticed 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:38.237 that uh I'll generate stuff on Sora, download it and share it to a group chat 00:22:38.320 --> 00:22:42.877 and then it's this little in joke that me and five other people get uh and we 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.077 see this like family group chats of oh it's our dog and our kids but like 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:49.757 there's not really like okay yeah I this is a business you know everyone likes 00:22:49.840 --> 00:22:53.357 this >> absolutely that I would say that the 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:57.117 most common use case is something like that you know like memes on group chats 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:01.757 is a real killer use case of sort >> how is the Disney rollout going I was 00:23:01.840 --> 00:23:05.437 super excited about it Jordy was extreme extremely bullish on it from a business 00:23:05.520 --> 00:23:07.917 strategy perspective. >> Yeah. When you look at how image models 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:13.197 have grown various LLMs historically and now you're going to have an image image 00:23:13.280 --> 00:23:16.717 and video model that can do something that no other LLM can do at least 00:23:16.800 --> 00:23:17.437 legally. 00:23:17.520 --> 00:23:20.717 >> Yeah. And is Bob Iger joining OpenAI? 00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:24.797 >> Uh Bob Iger I would love it. No credit for that. 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:28.157 >> He's going to be looking for a job and free a year. He's a free agent. Pick him 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:29.517 up. >> Hit him up for us. You know, do some 00:23:29.600 --> 00:23:31.437 recruiting. That'd be that'd be great. 00:23:31.520 --> 00:23:36.397 Um the I think that generating 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:40.077 >> characters in images and videos is going 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:43.037 to be very important to people and they really like that. 00:23:43.120 --> 00:23:46.797 >> Uh like other like we were saying otherwise I don't think many people like 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:49.597 want to watch me and >> some Star Wars character doing something 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:50.717 together but I might think it's cool. 00:23:50.800 --> 00:23:53.597 >> Yeah. Um, it's, you know, there there's like a real trend going on right now 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:57.837 with chat GPT where it's make a caricature of me and my job based off of 00:23:57.920 --> 00:23:59.197 everything you know about me. Yeah. 00:23:59.280 --> 00:24:02.957 >> And those kinds of things people actually do like looking at other people's 00:24:03.040 --> 00:24:07.757 >> Yeah. >> Um, media. >> Yeah. It's almost like a like a face 00:24:07.840 --> 00:24:10.557 filter or something. There's like enough of it's the studio Giblly moment. Like 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:14.877 there's enough of the human still in there that it's not it's not you can't 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:18.477 yours is not the same as mine. So, it's still personalized. It's personalized 00:24:18.560 --> 00:24:22.717 and it says something about you and you know the the the like a lot of these 00:24:22.800 --> 00:24:26.157 things. >> A lot of what's gone viral before with 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:29.677 image gen. I think it's like if you can make people look a little bit more 00:24:29.760 --> 00:24:32.317 attractive or cool than they look in than they are in real life. 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:34.717 >> Yeah. >> Without sort of having to ask for that. 00:24:34.800 --> 00:24:36.637 >> Yeah. >> How are you thinking about the actual 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.277 the actual roll out? We were we were debating between like open the 00:24:39.360 --> 00:24:43.357 floodgates, you can generate any Disney property versus like it's it's 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:47.277 Spider-Man week and everyone's posting Spider-Man and then it's it's you know 00:24:47.360 --> 00:24:50.397 Mickey Mouse week and there's another viral moment. 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:53.357 >> I'm not sure what the team is planning there. I know Disney's had some 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:55.917 different opinions about how they what they want to do and we'll try to be a 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.717 good partner there. But I'd be excited to open the floodgates personally. 00:24:58.800 --> 00:25:01.677 >> Oh, that'd be fun. Cool. Uh talk about 00:25:01.760 --> 00:25:06.477 your first speaking of video your first Super Bowl ad. Uh, it felt like not 00:25:06.560 --> 00:25:10.717 generated, lots of motion graphics, the black dots coming together, like what 00:25:10.800 --> 00:25:13.357 was the what was the goal with that ad? 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:17.437 Who were you trying to speak to? It didn't feel like a direct response QR 00:25:17.520 --> 00:25:20.877 code, download the app. No. Uh, what was the mission? 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:23.677 >> Um, I love that ad. Uh, I think that was 00:25:23.760 --> 00:25:27.917 such a cool one. It was it clearly not meant to be like a mass market or direct 00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:28.877 response ad. 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:33.037 >> Yeah. But you know speaking to the like 00:25:33.120 --> 00:25:37.357 people who are at the center of this revolution and just trying to like 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:40.717 celebrate everything that has come before and everything that will come after. 00:25:40.800 --> 00:25:45.197 >> Yeah. >> Um it we didn't hear a lot about it from 00:25:45.280 --> 00:25:48.237 like average users of chatbt but we heard a lot about it from like 00:25:48.320 --> 00:25:52.237 researchers in the field and a lot of resonance there. Um it was definitely 00:25:52.320 --> 00:25:55.517 not generated. It was done the oldfashioned way. Uh, and you know, it 00:25:55.600 --> 00:25:59.517 had like a lot of people loved it, a lot of people hated it, and then many people 00:25:59.600 --> 00:26:03.117 in the middle didn't get it, and I felt okay about that. Um, 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:05.517 >> it's a great example. >> I like our ad for Sunday. 00:26:05.600 --> 00:26:08.637 >> Okay. >> Uh, it's about Codex, no surprise. But 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:10.957 >> yeah, talk about the evolution of the 00:26:11.040 --> 00:26:15.117 advertising to be more uh just clear 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:18.797 about the actual use case, the value, like what are you trying to say with 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:20.557 your advertising strategy now as it 00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:23.437 refers as it relates to like video? 00:26:23.520 --> 00:26:26.520 Um 00:26:27.760 --> 00:26:31.357 well the thing I would most like us to say and I think this is a new challenge 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:37.357 given where the models are is to teach people what they can go do with 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:40.557 >> AI. Yeah. >> I think AI is now unbelievably capable 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:45.357 in most of the world. It's still like asking it basic questions on Chad GBT. 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.157 >> Everyone can go build amazing things now. Everyone can go do all kinds of 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.557 work. Scientists are going to make new discoveries. Um, and I'd like to, you 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.717 know, to the degree that advertising we do can teach people how to use this, I I 00:26:56.800 --> 00:26:59.197 think that'd be awesome. >> Yeah. So, the KPI is like reduce the 00:26:59.280 --> 00:27:02.557 capability overhang broadly. 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:06.717 >> I think that's should be a general KPI for us, not just of our ads. Yeah. 00:27:06.800 --> 00:27:10.077 >> Um, the products that we build, how we teach people to use those products, like 00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:13.277 the the >> that feels very important. 00:27:13.360 --> 00:27:17.437 >> Yeah. Uh, Anthropic also has a bunch of ads in the Super Bowl. Seems like run a 00:27:17.520 --> 00:27:20.077 ton. What do you think that they're 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:23.197 getting wrong about uh about their 00:27:23.280 --> 00:27:25.517 characterization of how ads will roll 00:27:25.600 --> 00:27:29.357 out in chat apps? 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:32.237 >> Uh well, it's just wrong. Um like the 00:27:32.320 --> 00:27:37.517 the the main thing that I think is we are not stupid. We respect our users. We 00:27:37.600 --> 00:27:39.117 understand that if we did something like 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:41.117 what those ads depict, people would 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:45.277 rightfully stop using the product. Um, 00:27:45.360 --> 00:27:48.157 no one like our our first principle with 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:49.757 ads is that we're not going to put stuff 00:27:49.840 --> 00:27:53.037 into the LLM stream. Um, that would feel 00:27:53.120 --> 00:27:56.157 crazy dystopic like bad sci-fi movie. 00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:57.597 Um, so the main thing that's wrong with 00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:00.477 the ads is like using a deceptive ad to 00:28:00.560 --> 00:28:05.517 criticize deceptive ads feels I don't know, something doesn't sit 00:28:05.600 --> 00:28:07.277 right with me about that. I asked I 00:28:07.360 --> 00:28:11.997 asked Claude uh what uh if if what the 00:28:12.080 --> 00:28:16.557 definition of playing dirty >> and it said uh what did it say? 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:20.317 Misleading others about your intentions, hiding information, or creating false 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:24.957 impressions. >> Yeah. >> Thought it was a little dirty. I thought 00:28:25.040 --> 00:28:28.477 it was well played, but it was it was >> it was it was well played for sure. And 00:28:28.560 --> 00:28:33.437 it was a funny ad and and they you know like the sort of 00:28:33.520 --> 00:28:35.357 >> the stuff about the chat GBT personality 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:39.037 that most annoys me which we'll fix very soon. I thought they nailed in the ad. 00:28:39.120 --> 00:28:40.717 So that part was funny. >> Yeah. 00:28:40.800 --> 00:28:45.437 >> Um >> but I don't know you know like I also 00:28:45.520 --> 00:28:48.317 like I think it's great for them not to do ads. We have a different shaped 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.917 business. I did notice that they said in their thing like we may later revise 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.197 this decision and we'll explain why. So, um, 00:28:55.280 --> 00:28:57.997 >> yeah, the the blog post the blog post 00:28:58.080 --> 00:29:03.277 was uh kind of did a good job of disarming the pro ad people gave 00:29:03.360 --> 00:29:06.557 themselves an out >> in the future. 00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:07.997 >> Uh, do you think they care? 00:29:08.080 --> 00:29:11.117 >> It doesn't matter. Like I think it's a sideeshow. You know, people are excited 00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.917 for a food fight and uh between 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.597 companies, but like the 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:22.317 the amazing capabilities of these models, the product, the kind of like 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:26.637 the ground swell of excitement around codecs, that feels way more important to 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:29.437 me. >> How do you stop the pausing that happens 00:29:29.520 --> 00:29:32.797 in voice mode? Do you need new hardware for that or is it a model capability 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:34.717 thing? >> We need new model. Uh we may need some 00:29:34.800 --> 00:29:38.477 new hardware too, but mostly we just need a new model. I think we will have a 00:29:38.560 --> 00:29:42.237 great voice mode. >> Yeah. >> By the end of this year. 00:29:42.320 --> 00:29:45.677 >> What's the bigger bottleneck? Energy or chips? 00:29:45.760 --> 00:29:48.237 >> It goes back and forth. Uh right now again it's chips. 00:29:48.320 --> 00:29:51.357 >> Chips. Is there anything >> but it it you know be different different times. 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:54.637 >> Is there anything we like society America should be doing more 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.557 aggressively to increase the supply of fabs? 00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:04.520 >> Um >> or fab. >> Yeah. I think it is 00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:07.277 well it may get solved on its own. It 00:30:07.360 --> 00:30:11.997 may like normal capitalism may solve it but I think somehow deciding as a 00:30:12.080 --> 00:30:15.517 society that we are going to increase the wafer capacity of the world and 00:30:15.600 --> 00:30:19.837 we're going to fund that uh and we're going to get you know the whole supply 00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.477 chain and the talented people we need to make that happen would be a very good 00:30:22.560 --> 00:30:24.957 thing to do. >> Do you think there's an upper bound on 00:30:25.040 --> 00:30:27.917 model IQ? Like the the race right now is 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:30.797 is you're smart, but you're not smart 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:33.917 for days. You're smart for hours. Can 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:37.917 you go much farther and get much smarter? 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:41.437 >> It seems certain. >> Upper bound. I don't know. Uh I don't 00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:43.917 know how to think about that question yet. 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.517 >> Yeah. I can't even reason about what 2,000 IQ looks like, you know? Like I 00:30:47.600 --> 00:30:50.157 don't even I don't know what that means. 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:53.597 >> It's funny you say. I mean, I I I can't reason about what it means to think 00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:57.917 about a problem for like 10,000 human years. That's another good one. Yeah. 00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:02.557 >> Yeah, >> that's crazy. >> But maybe IQ is going to feel even even weirder. I I 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:06.477 >> Yeah, >> I don't know. I feel like 00:31:06.560 --> 00:31:10.397 >> I somehow feel like this isn't going to feel as strange as it sounds. 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:13.357 >> And the like for a bunch of reasons. 00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:16.477 We're so focused on other people. We're so focused on our own lives. We're so 00:31:16.560 --> 00:31:20.557 focused. We have such a humanentric nature that like, okay, this thing is 00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:23.437 really smart. It's inventing new science for us. It's running companies for us. 00:31:23.520 --> 00:31:27.517 It's doing all this stuff. And 00:31:27.600 --> 00:31:30.477 that sounds like it should be impossibly weird and I think it will just be very 00:31:30.560 --> 00:31:33.517 weird. >> Do you think space data centers will 00:31:33.600 --> 00:31:38.397 provide a meaningful amount of compute for open AAI in the next two to three 00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:42.957 years, five years? >> No. >> 10 years. 00:31:43.040 --> 00:31:43.997 >> Um, 00:31:44.080 --> 00:31:47.597 >> you just keep going 10,000 years. 00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:50.717 >> I I wish Ethan luck. 00:31:50.800 --> 00:31:53.517 >> Okay. Uh the the the funny thing about 00:31:53.600 --> 00:31:57.837 the whole like back and forth about ads is that uh in in our world the criticism 00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:02.077 is that you didn't launch ads early enough. Is there a world where you wish 00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:04.157 you launched earlier? How is the actual 00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:07.597 roll out going? Are advertisers happy? 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:10.957 Do you have like a really long roadmap or do you think you'll be faster at 00:32:11.040 --> 00:32:13.677 catching up to sort of what's frontier and ad? 00:32:13.760 --> 00:32:17.997 >> We haven't even started the test yet. We start the test soon. Um but you know 00:32:18.080 --> 00:32:21.677 we're going to it's going to take us some number of iterations to figure out 00:32:21.760 --> 00:32:25.677 the right ad unit the right kind of the right way this all works. Um do I wish 00:32:25.760 --> 00:32:28.317 we had started earlier? 00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:32.797 >> We have gone from like not a company you know 3 years and 3 months ago or 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:34.877 something like that. We were like a research lab 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:37.597 >> and now we are like a pretty big company 00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:41.597 with a lot of products. So there's many things I wish we had done faster. I 00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:44.717 think we were correct on the trade-off here of how we balance things that we 00:32:44.800 --> 00:32:47.917 need to do. Um I wish you know we launched this very cool enterprise 00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.957 platform this morning. >> Wish we had done that earlier too but 00:32:51.040 --> 00:32:54.477 had to like deal with the monstrous growth of CHPT and Codex and all other stuff. 00:32:54.560 --> 00:32:56.397 >> Good problems to have. Last question uh 00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:59.357 for me uh what happened to that internal 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.517 writing model that you used to write the 00:33:01.600 --> 00:33:04.317 essay. Uh that feels like something that 00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:08.717 was really cool but we never really saw the light of day. 00:33:08.800 --> 00:33:13.037 >> Uh we're going to get a lot of that spirit into a future model. Again, it's 00:33:13.120 --> 00:33:16.477 like >> there's so much stuff happening. 00:33:16.560 --> 00:33:19.197 >> Yeah, >> we have to make these hard prioritization decisions. 00:33:19.280 --> 00:33:21.757 >> Sure. >> Um I would love a cool writing model, 00:33:21.840 --> 00:33:24.157 >> not as much as I would love a cool coding model. 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:28.237 >> Um and it's what is possible now for 00:33:28.320 --> 00:33:31.517 coding for science. That's the thing I'm most excited about. 00:33:31.600 --> 00:33:35.917 >> Um for accelerating all kinds of research AI and otherwise for really 00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:40.637 accelerating the economy. Uh I think that's like the right thing for us to 00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:45.757 most prioritize in terms of new capabilities. But yeah, well like you 00:33:45.840 --> 00:33:49.837 want you want a model that can write beautifully because it means it well you 00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:53.197 want to write a model that can write beautifully if it can also think very 00:33:53.280 --> 00:33:54.717 clearly and express that very clearly. 00:33:54.800 --> 00:33:56.317 That's just useful in normal work. 00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:57.597 >> Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.157 >> Last question for me. How how have 00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.357 conversations been with the broad open 00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:07.197 AI leadership team? You guys are in a position where any single word or 00:34:07.280 --> 00:34:09.517 sentence you say in any situation can be 00:34:09.600 --> 00:34:14.877 spun into a headline immediately and then you guys have to go on damage 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:17.917 control kind of correcting the narrative. But of course the original 00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.997 message is often or at least the original news is often seen more broadly 00:34:22.080 --> 00:34:23.677 than the than the correction and it 00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:25.677 seems like an interesting challenge. 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:29.277 >> It it is a strange way to live. Um it 00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:31.837 and I don't like I don't know of any 00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:34.637 private company that has ever like 00:34:34.720 --> 00:34:36.797 >> been so in the news and so under a 00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.917 microscope and it you know at some level 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:43.997 it's frustrating and you know we're so 00:34:44.080 --> 00:34:47.597 squarely in the sights of everybody's anxieties and every competitor trying to 00:34:47.680 --> 00:34:51.677 take us down and everybody's like just what is going to happen with AI to their 00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:56.960 part of the business or their own lives um that there's like a lot 00:34:58.160 --> 00:34:59.757 plasma looking for an instability to 00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:02.477 collapse on. Um in some other sense 00:35:02.560 --> 00:35:05.917 though the the subjective experience of 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.557 it is we are so busy on so much exciting stuff that it often feels like there's 00:35:10.640 --> 00:35:12.877 this in crazy hurricane turning around 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.997 us and when we sit it's like fairly calm 00:35:16.080 --> 00:35:20.077 you know the media or Twitter goes insane about something one day they're 00:35:20.160 --> 00:35:23.837 talking about a crazy meltdown we're like that is insane like okay and people 00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:27.597 talk about it all day and then later find out it's wrong and sort of seemed 00:35:27.680 --> 00:35:30.797 like a lot of wasted energy but we're just like we have this great new model 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:34.877 coming. People are building incredible stuff. Companies are transforming. We're 00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:37.437 trying to like figure out how to get more compute and deal with this compute 00:35:37.520 --> 00:35:41.917 crunch. And we just kind of like keep going and we're busy. And then if we 00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:43.917 like open Twitter, pop up our heads and 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:45.997 look at the news, it's like, wow, that 00:35:46.080 --> 00:35:49.037 is an insane crazy thing happening. 00:35:49.120 --> 00:35:53.677 Completely divorced from reality or 99% divorced from reality. And like, okay, 00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:55.037 someone will correct it. But then we get 00:35:55.120 --> 00:35:57.357 back to work and people flip out again. 00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:01.037 It's it is much it is weird to watch 00:36:01.120 --> 00:36:04.957 when we look outside, but it is uh 00:36:05.040 --> 00:36:09.277 >> it is less chaotic internally than I think you would imagine from reading the 00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:12.397 media reports. >> Yep, that makes sense. Well, thank you 00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:16.237 so much for taking the time to come chat with us. Congrats on the 00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:18.557 >> I'm excited to see the Codeex ad. 00:36:18.640 --> 00:36:23.037 >> Please try it. The It is the app and 53 have been like uh I think the coolest 00:36:23.120 --> 00:36:25.357 thing we've done in a while. >> Yes. With one prompt, I rebuilt the 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:30.397 tbpn.com homepage to look exactly like uh Bergkshire Hathaway. And it was just 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:33.197 immediate. It was very fun. >> Interesting choice. 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:35.037 >> Plain text. It was very easy. 00:36:35.120 --> 00:36:37.757 Immediately oneshot it. Did not really push it to its limits. But I'm having 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:40.317 fun. So, thank you so much for coming on the show. We'll talk to you soon. 00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:41.037 >> Thank you. Great to catch up. 00:36:41.120 --> 00:36:43.840 >> Goodbye. lectures.