WEBVTT

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We have Palmer Lucky in the reream
waiting room. Let's bring him in to the

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TBNN Ultradome. Palmer, how are you?

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>> You are live. You are live, sir.

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>> Can you hear us? Okay. >> Yep.
I hear you loud and clear though

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with a little bit of delay.
So, we'll try to keep it zippy.

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>> Well, we're going to say probably five
words in total and you're just going to

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go crazy. >> Tell us what's happening.

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>> Tell us what's happening. Uh, so I mean

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Trump is complaining about tariffs. Iran

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is on the brink of war and Arabore uh

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the the new the new bank for the tech
community building things that actually

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matter has officially received its
charter and become operational. So it's

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a pretty good set
of things that are going on.

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>> Big hit. >> Congratulations.

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>> Big hit. >> Take us
back in time. When did this

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project start? What was the inciting

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element? Why is this important? How did

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you pick this to work on?

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Look, there's a lot of there's a lot
of things that I could point to, but it

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really boils down to I've been
looking at starting a bank for a while,

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primarily for my own personal use,
because there weren't banks out there

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that really understood my business, my
businesses, the things that I was doing.

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Uh, Silicon Valley Bank was doing
a reasonable job, but then they went out

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of business and took everybody's money
with them and had to have the government

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bail everybody out. And I think that was
really kind of the thing that that got

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me very serious about it. I realized
that you didn't have banks that were

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aligned with the United States,

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interests that were aligned with deep
tech, hard tech, energy, the things that

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are really complex and hard to understand,
but that do really matter.

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Uh that could also serve them in a
meaningful way. I mean, you have farmers

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banks that serve communities that are
doing agriculture. You have banks

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certainly that are doing oil and gas

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quite well, but when it comes to tech,
it's a pretty sparse field. And so, uh,

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I I I started to think, well, how do
you build a bank that could serve those

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things? How could you do it a very
conservative way, very, very lowrisk way

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you can ensure you're not going to go
out of business? You're not going to

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force everyone to rely on government
bailouts. You may not be able to survive

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a total financial collapse. Banks rarely
can, but you can at least be the last

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man standing. And so uh thinking about
that and then also a lot of things that

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new technology enables like using

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dollarbacked cryptocurrencies to have
365 24/7 settlement of payments which is

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something that a lot of businesses need
and very few get. Uh you kind of stack

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all these things together and it becomes
clear that there's there's room for a

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company to to to be a real bank
for real companies doing real things.

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>> So is there a network effect there?

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Because if I'm on Arabore and Jord's
on Arabore and we can both have 24/7

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settlement, but someone else is on a
different bank and they don't have 24/7

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settlement, we're going to have a good
experience and then maybe to get out of

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the network. How does that work?

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>> I think that there will be network
effects, but to be honest, whatever

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network effects there are will probably
be pretty short-lived. I think that

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>> pretty quickly everyone is going
to realize that they need to support these

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things. And I think that when like
seeing this administration's support for

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using specifically dollar backed stable
coins. So not saying we're going to move

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everybody off of the dollar, we're
going to move them off of uh you know the

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United States currency as the reserve
currency of the world. But I think

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probably most banks are going to get
drugged into this. The difference is

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that we're trying to do it from the start.
Uh so so is there a network

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effect? uh probably but I think most of
the forward-looking companies that would

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value that network effect that one
in particular uh see see that in the next

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few years probably all banks are going to
be forced to adopt this to be competitive.

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>> So what is what is the ideal banking

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experience for you besides stability and

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low risk are are uh is being able to

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talk to somebody is that a bug? Should
we just is is airbor just going to be

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you know a chat bot that you say talk
to a human and it says unfortunately I

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cannot do that I am an AI >> I think
it's gonna be a long time before

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we hand things off to the chat pods if
only for regulatory reasons like you set

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aside the risk which is a huge factor
you set aside the fact that we have our

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own banking rails which are extremely
efficient and that we can settle at any

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time. And I mean those are huge factors
on their own. But even if you knock off

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kind of all of these uh all of these
obvious advantages, there's a lot of

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other things that you get from having
a bank that is strongly aligned with the

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United States, strongly aligned with US
interest, strongly aligned with the US

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Department of War and also
the intelligence community. And then there

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there's there's a lot of ways that
that manifests. For example, one of the

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things that we're doing is rather than
working with the intelligence community

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only under court order to kind of go
and you respond to when they think there's

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crime going on in the platform, we're
preemptively going out there and saying,

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"No, we're going to work with them
from the very, very beginning to help make

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fraud almost impossible on our platform."
Which is great for me, too,

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because it means that people who want to
engage in fraud are going to go to other

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banks. It means that people who don't
want to engage in fraud are going to be

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thrilled about being on a platform
that doesn't have that type of activity on

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it. And to the extent that it exists
inside of their own platform against

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their will, they know that they have
a willing partner that is willing to work

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with the government rather than hide
these, you know, hide these things. I

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would say maybe think of it as like the
opposite of HSBC where they were banking

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the cartels and desperately trying
to avoid any sort of government

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intervention that would make that clear
to the public markets. Put Arabore way

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at the other end of that spectrum.
I think there's also a lot of other banks

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that, you know, whether whether they're
good or bad people is irrelevant. Uh you

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might have good people who nonetheless
are very beholdened to European markets,

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Chinese markets, other foreign markets
that they need to keep happy either

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because they want to keep them happy
and make money or because they don't want

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their executives in those jurisdictions
to get arrested. Arabore is taking a

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very different approach. We're saying,
you know what, we're an American

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company. We're an American bank that
supports American companies and we will

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comply with US law, but we will not

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comply with spurious rulings from people

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who have no real jurisdiction
or authority over us. And you'll find a

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very hard time finding a bank that takes
that position. I'm not aware of any

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other than us. >> How do
you think about rolling out

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products? A bank can do everything from

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mortgages to equipment financing to

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venture debt to capital raises. Take
someone public. That's kind of what you

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know, you go to a big bank,
they're going to help you IPO.

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>> What do you want to do first?

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>> I think that right now, yeah, we look,
we've just barely open, so give us a

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little bit of time. The products that we
are prioritizing are based entirely on

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the customer feedback that we're
getting, the things that they tell us

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they need, the things that they tell
us that we can most help with. In a way,

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the existence of a bank to me is almost
this antiquated thing. like you you

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would hope that companies could really
just do all of this stuff themselves or

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at least most of it themselves. Uh but
the the regulatory climate, the way that

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the banking system works requires that
you have this intermediary in the form

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of a regulated bank to make these things

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happen. And so I I kind of think of our

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business as part and parcel of these
companies that need us and we're going

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to work very very close closely with
them and focus on the things that they

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care about. It's probably not going
to be, for example, uh, you know,

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residential mortgages, uh,
but things like equipment financing, very

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conservative, you very conservatively
played where it's not going to turn into

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a risk management problem. Uh, allowing
them to work with the legacy banking

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system and plugging into that in the least
painful way. These are things that

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we have a lot of customers who are very
interested. Oh, and we need to not lose

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their money. Uh, if we can do that, we'll
be doing better than many other banks.

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>> Yes. Yes.

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uh talk about the uh tradeoffs of going

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the charter route. You know the last 10

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years most of the banking products that

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founders have used were uh built on top

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of existing charters or or spreading
deposits across multiple

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>> people just avoid getting a charter
at all. You they want to be a fintech

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company and they basically will dance
around the fact that realistically what

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they're doing is basically being a bank.

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Um, look, there's a lot of things
that you can do without having your own

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charter. There's things you can do
partner with other companies. There's a

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lot of things you cannot do without

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having your own sort of risk. Anti

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anti-hyperrowth like you can't just

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scale to 50 billion of deposits tomorrow
even if there's the demand, right? So

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maybe >> we decided
that we we decided that we

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needed to get our own charter because of
the type of bank we were going to try to

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run and the ability to have the buck
stop with us the moment that you're

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dependent on somebody else for the key

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infrastructure the key risk management

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the key lensure questions they can kick
you off the platform they can be forced

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to kick you off the platform they might
maybe they're doing it for good reasons

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maybe they're doing it for bad reasons
I mean you've seen this play out for

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example with steam and their payment
processors and their banks and their

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payment processors banks where they're
basically censoring games because

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there's some circle of people who all
claim it's not them pointing down the

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chain. It's that guy's that guy.
It's that guy. It's that guy. But they all

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agree, even if they can't agree who's
causing the censorship that if you don't

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censor, they're going to drop you.

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They're going to drop your account.

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They're going to debank you. They're
going to depayment you. And so, one of

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the things that you have to ask yourself
when you're making yourself dependent on

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another bank or another payment company
is, am I setting this up where they get

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to make my decisions for me? and are
they making their decisions for me or is

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the Chinese Communist Party making those
decisions? Is some political party that

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is extremely hostile to some business on
our network the one actually making that

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decision? So, if you don't control your
own charter, if you don't control your

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own destiny, the buck doesn't stop with
you and you're always going to have to

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keep other parties happy. And I I think
that was not something that we were

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interested in. We wanted to be able
to run the bank the way that we think it

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needs to be run. And if we are debanking
somebody, we are going to have to take

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responsibility for that. And I think
that actually leads to much better

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behavior. I would love to see that type
of behavior across the industry.

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>> Uh physical branches.
How are you thinking about that?

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>> I think we're going to start with Fort
Knox and then we'll expand from there.

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>> I like it.

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>> Yeah. Maybe actually dive deeper there.

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Like what is a bank these days?
I think most people can conceptualize like

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setting up a crypto wallet that holds

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coins, but when you want to hold real

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dollars, uh you don't actually have a

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physical bank vault, I imagine. So once
you get the charter, does that just give

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you the ability to like maintain
a database and a ledger like what is a

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bank? >> What is a bank?
I mean there's lots of

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forms it can be. I think if you want
all the details, you can actually read

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through a lot of our applications.
Some of it's actually a matter of public

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record and you can see that and will

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sorry not Arabore will have a physical

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vault and we will have a lot of treasure

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in it. So we are not trying to be a pure
digital pure uh you know pure ether

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company and in fact a lot of the
companies that are very interested in

00:10:36.560 --> 00:10:41.197
working with us want us to have secure
actual vaulted storage. I'm not saying

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that that's going to be the first
thing that we focus on. That's our key

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differentiator. But we are not a we are
not a bank of the ether. We are we we we

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are of Terrairma. >> Yeah.
Last time you came on, we talked a

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lot about Mod Retro. I'd love an update

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on the M64. What makes that product

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special? Where did you go further
with this project than with the Chromatic?

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And just general like how
you're thinking about the M64.

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>> Well, for people who aren't familiar
with it, the M64 is a tribute to the

00:11:08.880 --> 00:11:13.037
Nintendo 64 that I'm building. One of
the greatest multiplayer consoles of all

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time. We're building a console that is

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compatible with all classic N64 games.

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We're re-releasing a lot of classic N64
games so that you can buy them if you

00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:25.597
don't already have them. We're actually
doing new releases of canceled N64 games

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that never even made it to market either
because they were cancelled and ported

00:11:29.040 --> 00:11:33.357
to GameCube or because they ran out
of money or because the studios imploded

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for interpersonality reasons. It's
there's a lot of cool stuff coming out.

00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:40.957
Uh the M64, I guess the main update
is that it's in mass production right now.

00:11:41.040 --> 00:11:45.677
It is it is not eventually coming. It
is in mass production right now. Uh we've

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decided we're not going to launch it
until we build up sufficient stock to

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meet the demand. One of the mistakes
I think we made with the mod retro

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chromatic which was a tribute to the Game
Boy and Game Boy Color was that we

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started selling them and then all
of a sudden we sold out and then you have

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people who hear about it, they read
about it, their friends are all talking

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about it, they go to try to buy one
and they can't buy one cuz it's sold out.

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And there's a question, will they
remember to come back and buy it some

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other time? Will they still feel like
going and immediately buying it? Yeah,

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>> exactly. And so you kind of end up with
this with this dead end call to action.

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And so we've decided this time, and by
the way, this is especially bad for the

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game publishers that we're working with.

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Let's say that it's someone who's
re-releasing a game or somebody who's

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doing a brand new game. Some of the
indie developers we're working with on

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the Chromatic, they're out there
promoting their game. They're trying to

00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:32.797
market their game. They're doing all
a whole marketing activation trying to

00:12:32.880 --> 00:12:35.757
convince people, hey, come and buy
my new Game Boy game. Come and buy my new

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Nintendo 64 game. Well, what happens
if you can't buy the console? A lot of

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people like, oh, I'll come back later
and buy it. and then they don't. And so

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what we want to do is not let down our

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developer partners this time and make

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sure that we maintain stock. So the goal
is that the M64, no matter how many

00:12:52.640 --> 00:12:56.557
people hit our website, is not going
to sell out. And so we are mass-

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prodducing. We're stockpiling, I think,
tens of thousands of them so far. More

00:13:00.560 --> 00:13:04.157
and more to come. >> What is the uh
what is the launching soon?

00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:08.157
>> What's the supply chain actually
like right now? We've covered uh the the

00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:11.517
gamer rebellion against against AI memory.

00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:15.917
>> Gamers are rising up.
>> You know, the supply chain is okay

00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:19.117
because of the type of hardware
that we're building. Uh there's a lot of

00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:22.877
consumer hardware right now where people
are trying to buy memory and it's a huge

00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:25.917
problem. Um but remember that the

00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.877
Nintendo 64 doesn't have exactly a lot

00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.197
of memory. You know, it had what what 16
megabytes by default, 32 megabytes with

00:13:33.280 --> 00:13:35.757
the expansion pack. And so it turns out

00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:39.197
that you don't need that much memory to

00:13:39.280 --> 00:13:43.917
uh perfectly replicate
the Nintendo 64 original.

00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:47.837
>> Maybe it might be it might it might
be actually the least imp less the least

00:13:47.920 --> 00:13:50.717
memory impacted consumer
electronics product of the year.

00:13:50.800 --> 00:13:54.797
>> And so this was this was your plan then
all along the AI boom was coming and you

00:13:54.880 --> 00:13:57.277
said I'm going to make
the the final console.

00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.837
>> Yeah. >> No, we got
to return to monkey. We got

00:13:59.920 --> 00:14:03.997
we got to go to go back to the beginning.
Uh, I mean, really, what am I

00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:06.637
doing here with something with 32
megabytes of I mean, you you remember

00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:09.597
what uh you remember what Bill Gates
said, right? What what was it? 64

00:14:09.680 --> 00:14:14.077
kilobytes of RAM ought to be enough for
anyone. Uh, let's let's let's figure out

00:14:14.160 --> 00:14:15.997
how to use AI to Yeah, let's figure out

00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:17.677
how to use AI to build applications that

00:14:17.760 --> 00:14:21.517
fit within reasonable memory footprints.

00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:23.357
>> I'm only half kidding.
I think you might

00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.037
have seen me going back and forth
with Shimoth on Twitter a couple weeks ago

00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:30.157
talking about uh how this AI software

00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:32.557
platform for building uh building

00:14:32.640 --> 00:14:35.037
software using AI should definitely

00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:38.397
support export uh to uh Windows XP

00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:42.557
Service Pack 3 compatible applications
and I really am only half kidding there

00:14:42.640 --> 00:14:45.757
there is actually a lot of government
hardware that is still running those

00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:49.197
financial hardware that's still running
these mostly offline stuff and so having

00:14:49.280 --> 00:14:53.117
apps that can run on those is actually
useful but man it feels crazy to need a

00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:55.837
few gigabytes of RAM to have a start menu.
It feels pretty crazy that you

00:14:55.920 --> 00:15:00.717
need 16 GB of RAM to take 30 minutes
to search through a bunch of text files.

00:15:00.800 --> 00:15:02.557
Surely we can do better than this.

00:15:02.640 --> 00:15:04.717
>> Can you talk a little bit about how you

00:15:04.800 --> 00:15:07.757
think about gaming in the concept of uh

00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:10.317
just raising the next generation kids? I

00:15:10.400 --> 00:15:13.837
have three three kids and uh I think I

00:15:13.920 --> 00:15:15.917
could probably get an emulator and run

00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:18.877
it on an iPad and slam that over to my

00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:22.077
kid's face and uh he might not know the

00:15:22.160 --> 00:15:24.717
difference. But is there another angle

00:15:24.800 --> 00:15:29.437
to the M64 that is about like some of

00:15:29.520 --> 00:15:33.677
the some of the things that you can't do
with it are actually good for the world?

00:15:33.760 --> 00:15:37.437
Maybe. I mean, you have to remember
that the gaming industry, like many

00:15:37.520 --> 00:15:41.357
industries, figured out what actually
worked a long time ago. They figured out

00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:43.837
how to make fun games. They figured out
how to make things that make people keep

00:15:43.920 --> 00:15:47.677
coming back. But it's moved from
innovation to extraction. And I will

00:15:47.760 --> 00:15:51.837
note, I stole that line from Nurav Patel,
founder of Framework, because he

00:15:51.920 --> 00:15:54.637
put it so much better than I did. But
there's these industries that have moved

00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.077
from innovation to extraction
and they're now in the extraction phase

00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:01.357
where they try to make tons and tons
and tons of money and actually pushing the

00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:03.917
limits is not the top priority for some

00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.437
huge majority of the dollars that are in

00:16:07.520 --> 00:16:11.757
industry. And so there's a lot of stuff
that you can learn especially when

00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.117
you're learning it from the ground up
by going back to when people were just

00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:17.597
getting the basics right when they were
still innovating building things that

00:16:17.680 --> 00:16:22.157
were really compelling to people. Um,
I I I recently had a kid I and I have a

00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:26.397
second on the way. I'm planning
on starting them with I don't even know if

00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.437
I'd say the classics. This isn't like
a vintage play. It's it's starting them

00:16:29.520 --> 00:16:34.477
with a good foundation. That foundation
happens to be largely old games. Uh, but

00:16:34.560 --> 00:16:38.077
I am not going to be throwing them
into the slot machine microtransaction

00:16:38.160 --> 00:16:42.797
gambarama that is dominating kids games
today. It just seems like like like a

00:16:42.880 --> 00:16:45.517
crazy thing to do.
>> It's a Skinner box. Yeah, don't go in

00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.077
the Skinner box. uh talk about vibe

00:16:48.160 --> 00:16:53.917
coding. What would uh your life be like
if vibe coding existed when you were 20?

00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:58.077
Advice for >> or 12 >> people
who are 20 now in the world of

00:16:58.160 --> 00:17:02.637
vibe coding. You went into hardware very
early. That feels like a great move. Is

00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:04.477
that still a great move?
Walk us through all that.

00:17:04.560 --> 00:17:07.357
>> I mean the the the
biggest beneficiaries

00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:11.837
of vibe coding are going to be the
hardware nerds like me. It's going to be

00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:13.997
it's going to be the the the the shape

00:17:14.080 --> 00:17:17.277
rotators. uh not the word cells.

00:17:17.360 --> 00:17:20.477
Everyone's focused on on on on how the
words on on the word cells are going to

00:17:20.560 --> 00:17:23.837
be wiped out by AI, but but but for
the shape rotators, it's going to be

00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:27.357
incredible. Uh you know, I was always
a pretty terrible software engineer. I'm I

00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.357
am I'm not a programmer by trade.
I've taught myself enough to glue things

00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:35.837
together and make them work. But when
I started my first company, Oculus, or

00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:40.797
actually when I started Mod Retro,
uh when I was 14 or 15, you know, I I knew

00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:44.717
just barely enough about software.
If I would have been able to build crappy

00:17:44.800 --> 00:17:48.157
stuff by outsourcing it to a computer,
I actually would have been able to

00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:50.957
accomplish things a lot faster than
trying to do it myself. And people might

00:17:51.040 --> 00:17:53.757
say, Palmer, you should have just
learned to code. You know, you sure

00:17:53.840 --> 00:17:56.557
should should have should have just
learned to do it yourself. But I think

00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:00.317
uh it's pretty easy to look at my track
record and realize I started Oculus when

00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:05.117
I was 19 after building prototypes since
I was 15. I was only able to accomplish

00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:09.037
what I accomplished because I focused
on what I was good at, which was opto

00:18:09.120 --> 00:18:11.917
mechanics, a little bit of electrical,
and then the product integration of all

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.117
of these different components. I didn't
have time to learn to program. If id

00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:19.437
spent another year or two learning
to program at even a reasonable level, I

00:18:19.520 --> 00:18:22.717
would have been 2 years behind
on everything else. And so, I am a big fan

00:18:22.800 --> 00:18:25.917
of vibe coding. Even if everything that
comes out of it is slop, even if it is

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:28.477
all [__] uh it's better
than I was able to make.

00:18:28.560 --> 00:18:31.117
>> Mhm. Uh how are you thinking about VR

00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:33.837
these days? I recently watched The

00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:35.917
Matrix from start to finish in an Apple

00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:38.957
Vision Pro. I enjoyed it. It feels like

00:18:39.040 --> 00:18:43.117
the only real thing that you can do
these days is just the home theater if

00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:46.077
you don't have a home theater.
But it doesn't feel like the industry's

00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:49.757
embraced that at all. Uh and everyone's
sort of writing down their investments

00:18:49.840 --> 00:18:52.637
and pulling back at a time when the

00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:57.677
display technology does seem to be good
enough for that narrow use case if you

00:18:57.760 --> 00:19:01.437
cut out the weight and move things around.
But where do you see this? Where

00:19:01.520 --> 00:19:05.117
do you where do you want consumer VR
to go? And then where do you think it

00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:08.877
actually is going? >> So I will
challenge your premise there,

00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:12.317
which is that people are pulling back.
I think that's driven mostly by people uh

00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:15.997
sensationalizing meta, firing a bunch
of people. But you have to remember they

00:19:16.080 --> 00:19:18.477
got rid of 10% of the reality labs team

00:19:18.560 --> 00:19:23.037
in one layoff. Remember that they have
something like 8 or 9% annual churn

00:19:23.120 --> 00:19:26.157
naturally and organically,
not including firing. Sure.

00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:27.357
>> I mean, what you're
really talking about

00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:31.757
is basically pulling 6 months of churn
forward into a single month. And they're

00:19:31.840 --> 00:19:35.597
still spending more on VR than anybody
by an order of magnitude. They've said

00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:37.277
they are not spending less on content.

00:19:37.360 --> 00:19:41.837
They're just not putting it into
first party stuff like uh Facebook Meta

00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.717
Horizon. You might have seen they've
announced Meta Horizons is no longer a

00:19:44.800 --> 00:19:48.797
VR app. As of yesterday, it is now
a mobile focused app only. What they've

00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.717
done is they've basically killed a few
of these failing efforts that didn't

00:19:52.800 --> 00:19:56.477
make sense and they're now putting those
resources into things that are working.

00:19:56.560 --> 00:20:01.037
And so I I I've I wrote a I wrote a I
I wrote a bit about this on on Twitter

00:20:01.120 --> 00:20:04.717
where people need to understand this
is not the end of VR. It's not it's not

00:20:04.800 --> 00:20:09.037
collapsing. They are still spending
>> an enormous amount of money. They're

00:20:09.120 --> 00:20:13.997
bigger than anybody else by an order of
magnitude. Um I I and I think if you pay

00:20:14.080 --> 00:20:17.437
attention to what's going to be coming
out from Meta and others over the next

00:20:17.520 --> 00:20:21.837
12 months, you're going to see a lot
of progress. Like Apple Vision Pro, yes,

00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:25.597
they so yes, Apple Vision Pro was ahead
of everybody on visual quality on

00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:28.237
display quality.
But let me tell you a short story.

00:20:28.320 --> 00:20:29.917
>> Imagine that an
American company went to

00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.837
a Japanese display vendor and they said,
"We want you to sell us your new 4K

00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:38.157
micro OLED displays." The company
gives them samples of those micro OLED

00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:42.157
displays. The samples cost about
$1,000 each because the yield on that

00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:44.317
production line is only about 10%. In

00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:49.437
other words, 90% of the displays coming
off the production line are uh not up to

00:20:49.520 --> 00:20:52.797
par. They're not working. And that's
because these are engineering samples.

00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:56.797
They're not meant to actually be
a working product. And they said, "Listen,

00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:00.077
here's our engineering samples. Just
wait 2 years and the yield is going to

00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.437
be up to 90%. We'll be able to sell
these to you for a couple hundred." And

00:21:03.520 --> 00:21:07.757
then imagine that that American tech
company had a a guy named Tim Apple call

00:21:07.840 --> 00:21:10.477
them up and say, "No, we're going
to build a product with this right now

00:21:10.560 --> 00:21:11.917
today using our engineering samples."

00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:15.997
They said, "But Tim, Apple, that's crazy.
That means that your headset was

00:21:16.080 --> 00:21:18.317
going to cost like $3,000." He said, "I

00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.637
don't care. I'm going to sell a headset

00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:24.957
that should launch in 27 in 2024, 2025,

00:21:25.040 --> 00:21:26.877
and I'm going to do it for $3,500."

00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.717
That's what Apple Vision Pro is. It
was never intended to be a product of the

00:21:30.800 --> 00:21:34.957
times. It's a product of the future
hauled into the present by spending

00:21:35.040 --> 00:21:39.357
enormous amounts of money. And so Meta
and Sony and Apple and Google and all of

00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:41.917
these other companies, they are going
to be hitting that level of visual

00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.717
fidelity. They're going to be doing it
with headsets that are far smaller, far

00:21:44.800 --> 00:21:48.397
lighter than what you see from Vision Pro.
And I I actually remain very

00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.477
optimistic. Um that's great.
I I think things are going pretty well.

00:21:52.560 --> 00:21:56.877
>> I I'm extremely optimistic. It's mostly
just uh that when I when I try and pull

00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.237
stuff out of meta, they're like, "No,
no, no. We're not ready to talk." And I

00:22:00.320 --> 00:22:02.957
think that they're just being cold
shoulder to me because like they don't

00:22:03.040 --> 00:22:06.797
want to leak it yet. But I I am very >>
Well, you know what the problem is? They

00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:09.917
don't have a they don't they don't have
a charming, charismatic pitch man who

00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.717
knows how to talk about this stuff with
you. They got to solve that. They need

00:22:12.800 --> 00:22:16.717
to figure out what they're doing.
You know, I it reminds me of uh of of

00:22:16.800 --> 00:22:20.637
something being here. I'm on the floor
of the New York Stock Exchange uh behind

00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:24.477
me >> and uh back
in the Oculus days when we

00:22:24.560 --> 00:22:28.397
sold the company to Meta. One of the
first things that happened was New York

00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:32.797
Stock Exchange emailed our contact info
email and they asked if I would come and

00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.597
ring the bell to the New York Stock
Exchange. Sounds pretty cool, right?

00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:38.717
Like, hey, like you've been acquired
by this major public corporation in the

00:22:38.800 --> 00:22:42.477
form of Facebook. Come and ring the bell.
Maybe, you know, maybe someday you

00:22:42.560 --> 00:22:46.237
will do something else with you.
And unfortunately,

00:22:46.320 --> 00:22:50.957
I didn't see that email for about 7
years because another Oculus executive

00:22:51.040 --> 00:22:54.237
intercepted the email said, "Oh no,
Palmer can't make it, but I would love

00:22:54.320 --> 00:22:58.477
to come." and he came and he rang the
bell without telling me about it and uh

00:22:58.560 --> 00:23:00.557
so uh I found out a bit about it later

00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:02.797
in unrelated litigation that email came

00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:06.157
up in Discovery and uh uh anyway I' I'

00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:10.157
I've not had a chance to ring the bell
yet. Maybe when Andrew goes public I'll

00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:13.837
finally be able to I'll finally be able
to ring that bell but I got to admit I

00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:16.717
have a I have a long memory and a long
memory of grudges and I won't say who it

00:23:16.800 --> 00:23:20.557
was but uh but but but there's probably a
handful of people out there who can guess.

00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:23.997
>> You you you have a lot of co-founders
now, a lot of executives that you work

00:23:24.080 --> 00:23:28.317
with. How do you select for folks who
won't do that to you? How do you select

00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:30.637
the right people extreme loyalty, trust?

00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:34.797
I don't know. I mean, it's important.
We just kicked this thing off a year ago.

00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:38.797
>> Look, I started Oculus
when I was 19 years old.

00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:41.677
>> Um, and I I mean, it's you you also got

00:23:41.760 --> 00:23:46.157
to remember the story of who is a founder,
who is a co-founder. It's it's

00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:50.317
fluid and dynamic and always changing
with the eb and flow of history. One of

00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:55.037
my ideas is to have a blockchain company
where everyone agrees what the founding

00:23:55.120 --> 00:23:58.477
story is and who the co-founders are and
then it goes into the blockchain so that

00:23:58.560 --> 00:24:01.437
nobody can come back and say that
they're a co-founder. There's a guy

00:24:01.520 --> 00:24:03.197
running around now who says that he's a

00:24:03.280 --> 00:24:06.157
co-founder of of of Oculus who was very

00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:09.037
much so not a co-founder and in fact

00:24:09.120 --> 00:24:10.957
>> I swear I swear I think I met this guy.

00:24:11.040 --> 00:24:13.597
I told you the story off air.
A guy I was at

00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:17.197
>> Tell me the story. So, I'm at a I was
at a dinner party at my friend's house and

00:24:17.280 --> 00:24:21.117
my buddy was like, "Hey, this guy works
at uh I'm not going to name the company,

00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:24.877
but uh you guys probably have some tech
stuff in common you guys should meet."

00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:27.677
And I go up to him, I said, "Hey, hi.
I I hear we should meet." And he's like,

00:24:27.760 --> 00:24:29.437
"Hey, I was like, "What's your story?"

00:24:29.520 --> 00:24:31.837
He's like, "I started a company called

00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:34.877
uh Oculus now at Meta." And I was like,

00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:40.317
"Oh, interesting. Like, never heard
of you before." And so, it might it may be

00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:41.597
this guy. We won't put him on blast.

00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:44.317
>> Here's the crazy thing. I don't even
know who you're talking about when you

00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:46.637
talk about >> and I told
him he was like because

00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:50.797
there's multiple people who are saying
this including a guy who literally has a

00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:54.477
documentary being made about him how
he's the founder of Oculus. So, it's

00:24:54.560 --> 00:24:56.797
it's it's all >> you'll appreciate.
You'll appreciate. I

00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:58.317
was like, "Oh, that's that's awesome."

00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:01.437
Like, uh, Palmer comes on the show all

00:25:01.520 --> 00:25:05.517
the time. And then he completely back
backtracked and was like was like,

00:25:05.600 --> 00:25:09.277
"Well, yeah, yeah, yeah." You know, I I
joined like, you know, uh, you know, and

00:25:09.360 --> 00:25:13.117
and but I was on the founding
team like he he he backtracked. But

00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:16.157
>> well, look, you so but to the point
you asked me, how do you select these

00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:20.877
people? Carefully. I was 19 years old
when I selected the first people that I

00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:22.477
was working with. I've learned a lot.

00:25:22.560 --> 00:25:25.677
I've been stabbed in the back a lot
and I'd probably make very different

00:25:25.760 --> 00:25:29.037
decisions if I were doing it today.
And it's worth noting, remember that I

00:25:29.120 --> 00:25:33.837
started Oculus on my own with no
co-founders, nobody involved in a lot of

00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:37.357
like I brought on people that I am happy
to call co-founders even though they

00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:41.197
didn't join the company until months
later who I had never met when I started

00:25:41.280 --> 00:25:45.757
the company. Um, that said, I'm hap
there's some people I'm honored to share

00:25:45.840 --> 00:25:48.637
the the title of co-founder with and
there's other people that I'm not, which

00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:51.677
is why I really want this blockchain
thing. Somebody needs that vibe code

00:25:51.760 --> 00:25:54.237
this slop and get it out there.

00:25:54.320 --> 00:25:58.397
>> Super important question. Have you
played Federal Reserve Simulator yet?

00:25:58.480 --> 00:25:59.917
It's a new game. >> It's on Steam.

00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:01.917
>> On Steam. You got to try it out.

00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:03.517
>> You're a banker.
I've not even heard of it.

00:26:03.600 --> 00:26:07.677
>> You're a banker now. You got to get the
rap. Really enjoy this. Federal Reserve

00:26:07.760 --> 00:26:11.197
Simulator. >> Federal Reserve.
I think I It's right

00:26:11.280 --> 00:26:13.437
there on the screen. It says Trump says

00:26:13.520 --> 00:26:18.637
we have an incompetent Federal Reserve
chair who loves high interest rates.

00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.237
Very, very interesting.
>> Uh, what what hardware are you

00:26:22.320 --> 00:26:26.317
collecting recently? We we just learned
you can buy a steam powered car and

00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:27.117
drive it around.

00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:30.957
>> Jay Leno has one that's 120 years old.

00:26:31.040 --> 00:26:35.597
>> What hardware am I buying? Am I buying
>> collecting? Not just buying collecting.

00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:39.357
>> Yeah. What am I What am I Well, so I
I have a I There's a few things I could

00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:43.277
bring up to be honest. I've been too
busy to buy really good stuff. But um I

00:26:43.360 --> 00:26:45.277
recently got delivered one of the first

00:26:45.360 --> 00:26:50.477
Jetson uh Jetson ones which is a small
EV tall aircraft. I was one of their

00:26:50.560 --> 00:26:54.157
first customers and their first delivery.
Um I also have a collection of

00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:58.957
motorcycles. The theme of the collection
is commercial failure. And so all of my

00:26:59.040 --> 00:27:02.477
motorcycles were huge commercial
failures. The more of a failure the

00:27:02.560 --> 00:27:04.717
better. And so uh I've been buying some

00:27:04.800 --> 00:27:08.237
some failed two-wheel drive motorcycles.

00:27:08.320 --> 00:27:12.397
I've military motorcycles.
>> How do they ride?

00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:15.837
>> Oh, incredible. Look, look, there's
really bad failed motorcycles. There's

00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.397
other that failed because they're too
good. One of the crown jewels in my

00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:22.397
collection is a Honda Rune. Uh it was
basically a personal project created by

00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:26.557
the CEO of Honda. The the document that
they used when they were creating it has

00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.077
actually been leaked now. And at the

00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:30.317
start of the document, it says

00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.677
performance is the only object. Price is

00:27:33.760 --> 00:27:35.837
of no importance. And so they wanted to

00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:38.157
build the ultimate cruising motorcycle.

00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:40.717
And the story goes that they lost over

00:27:40.800 --> 00:27:45.837
$100,000 per bike in the end. And so
I've got one of the one of the handful

00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:50.077
of Honda runes that made it out of that
program. A beautiful Honda Honda Room

00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:55.037
with uh with with a couple thousand
miles, metallic purple and chrome. And

00:27:55.120 --> 00:27:58.157
it's it's it's one of my favorite
motorcycles, if not the favorite. So

00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:00.797
commercial failure doesn't mean
a product's bad. It just means they

00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:02.637
couldn't figure out how
to make a business out of it.

00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:05.277
>> Back to your Jets one.
Uh, have you been

00:28:05.360 --> 00:28:08.717
flying it? Are you taking it like half
a foot off the ground and then a foot off

00:28:08.800 --> 00:28:10.957
the ground? What What is the path to uh

00:28:11.040 --> 00:28:13.037
commuting to work in it?

00:28:13.120 --> 00:28:16.717
>> I think given the regulatory climate

00:28:16.800 --> 00:28:19.037
around EVOL aircraft, it's best that I

00:28:19.120 --> 00:28:23.837
not say one more word. >> Perfect.
Perfect. Where do you Where do

00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:27.597
you get your shirts?
>> Where do I got my shirts? Well, it

00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:32.477
depends. I buy I buy Tommy Bahamas.
Um, this one is a rain spooner and all

00:28:32.560 --> 00:28:34.477
Hawaiian shirt. So, I've got a Sentry

00:28:34.560 --> 00:28:39.117
Tower. Um, I've got a Ghost X on it. And

00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:40.557
they're they're headquartered on on

00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:43.997
Catalina Island, California and Avalon.

00:28:44.080 --> 00:28:48.397
>> Um, so I I I buy a I buy I buy from a
whole bunch of different places. I'm not

00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:53.280
I'm an equal opportunity
Hawaiian shirt purchaser. I like