1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,877 We have Palmer Lucky in the reream waiting room. Let's bring him in to the 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,157 TBNN Ultradome. Palmer, how are you? 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,837 >> You are live. You are live, sir. 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,957 >> Can you hear us? Okay. >> Yep. I hear you loud and clear though 5 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:15,917 with a little bit of delay. So, we'll try to keep it zippy. 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,077 >> Well, we're going to say probably five words in total and you're just going to 7 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,677 go crazy. >> Tell us what's happening. 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,037 >> Tell us what's happening. Uh, so I mean 9 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,677 Trump is complaining about tariffs. Iran 10 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,037 is on the brink of war and Arabore uh 11 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:37,437 the the new the new bank for the tech community building things that actually 12 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,517 matter has officially received its charter and become operational. So it's 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,997 a pretty good set of things that are going on. 14 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:47,837 >> Big hit. >> Congratulations. 15 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,797 >> Big hit. >> Take us back in time. When did this 16 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,277 project start? What was the inciting 17 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,757 element? Why is this important? How did 18 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,077 you pick this to work on? 19 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:03,757 Look, there's a lot of there's a lot of things that I could point to, but it 20 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,957 really boils down to I've been looking at starting a bank for a while, 21 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,317 primarily for my own personal use, because there weren't banks out there 22 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:15,517 that really understood my business, my businesses, the things that I was doing. 23 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,437 Uh, Silicon Valley Bank was doing a reasonable job, but then they went out 24 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,877 of business and took everybody's money with them and had to have the government 25 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:26,157 bail everybody out. And I think that was really kind of the thing that that got 26 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,997 me very serious about it. I realized that you didn't have banks that were 27 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:31,757 aligned with the United States, 28 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:37,037 interests that were aligned with deep tech, hard tech, energy, the things that 29 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,317 are really complex and hard to understand, but that do really matter. 30 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,077 Uh that could also serve them in a meaningful way. I mean, you have farmers 31 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,917 banks that serve communities that are doing agriculture. You have banks 32 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,997 certainly that are doing oil and gas 33 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:55,197 quite well, but when it comes to tech, it's a pretty sparse field. And so, uh, 34 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,077 I I I started to think, well, how do you build a bank that could serve those 35 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,797 things? How could you do it a very conservative way, very, very lowrisk way 36 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:04,957 you can ensure you're not going to go out of business? You're not going to 37 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,997 force everyone to rely on government bailouts. You may not be able to survive 38 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,157 a total financial collapse. Banks rarely can, but you can at least be the last 39 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,997 man standing. And so uh thinking about that and then also a lot of things that 40 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,237 new technology enables like using 41 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:23,277 dollarbacked cryptocurrencies to have 365 24/7 settlement of payments which is 42 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,677 something that a lot of businesses need and very few get. Uh you kind of stack 43 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,717 all these things together and it becomes clear that there's there's room for a 44 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,997 company to to to be a real bank for real companies doing real things. 45 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,077 >> So is there a network effect there? 46 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,957 Because if I'm on Arabore and Jord's on Arabore and we can both have 24/7 47 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,717 settlement, but someone else is on a different bank and they don't have 24/7 48 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,957 settlement, we're going to have a good experience and then maybe to get out of 49 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,117 the network. How does that work? 50 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,837 >> I think that there will be network effects, but to be honest, whatever 51 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:57,517 network effects there are will probably be pretty short-lived. I think that 52 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,117 >> pretty quickly everyone is going to realize that they need to support these 53 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,237 things. And I think that when like seeing this administration's support for 54 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,837 using specifically dollar backed stable coins. So not saying we're going to move 55 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:11,517 everybody off of the dollar, we're going to move them off of uh you know the 56 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,197 United States currency as the reserve currency of the world. But I think 57 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,997 probably most banks are going to get drugged into this. The difference is 58 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,077 that we're trying to do it from the start. Uh so so is there a network 59 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,917 effect? uh probably but I think most of the forward-looking companies that would 60 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,557 value that network effect that one in particular uh see see that in the next 61 00:03:30,640 --> 00:03:34,477 few years probably all banks are going to be forced to adopt this to be competitive. 62 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,117 >> So what is what is the ideal banking 63 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,917 experience for you besides stability and 64 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,637 low risk are are uh is being able to 65 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,957 talk to somebody is that a bug? Should we just is is airbor just going to be 66 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,797 you know a chat bot that you say talk to a human and it says unfortunately I 67 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,037 cannot do that I am an AI >> I think it's gonna be a long time before 68 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,477 we hand things off to the chat pods if only for regulatory reasons like you set 69 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,997 aside the risk which is a huge factor you set aside the fact that we have our 70 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,037 own banking rails which are extremely efficient and that we can settle at any 71 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,477 time. And I mean those are huge factors on their own. But even if you knock off 72 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,117 kind of all of these uh all of these obvious advantages, there's a lot of 73 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,637 other things that you get from having a bank that is strongly aligned with the 74 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,557 United States, strongly aligned with US interest, strongly aligned with the US 75 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,917 Department of War and also the intelligence community. And then there 76 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,397 there's there's a lot of ways that that manifests. For example, one of the 77 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,077 things that we're doing is rather than working with the intelligence community 78 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,397 only under court order to kind of go and you respond to when they think there's 79 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,277 crime going on in the platform, we're preemptively going out there and saying, 80 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,997 "No, we're going to work with them from the very, very beginning to help make 81 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,197 fraud almost impossible on our platform." Which is great for me, too, 82 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:46,477 because it means that people who want to engage in fraud are going to go to other 83 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,077 banks. It means that people who don't want to engage in fraud are going to be 84 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,637 thrilled about being on a platform that doesn't have that type of activity on 85 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,757 it. And to the extent that it exists inside of their own platform against 86 00:04:55,840 --> 00:04:58,637 their will, they know that they have a willing partner that is willing to work 87 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,277 with the government rather than hide these, you know, hide these things. I 88 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,037 would say maybe think of it as like the opposite of HSBC where they were banking 89 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,717 the cartels and desperately trying to avoid any sort of government 90 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,397 intervention that would make that clear to the public markets. Put Arabore way 91 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,157 at the other end of that spectrum. I think there's also a lot of other banks 92 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,397 that, you know, whether whether they're good or bad people is irrelevant. Uh you 93 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,117 might have good people who nonetheless are very beholdened to European markets, 94 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,557 Chinese markets, other foreign markets that they need to keep happy either 95 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,797 because they want to keep them happy and make money or because they don't want 96 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,357 their executives in those jurisdictions to get arrested. Arabore is taking a 97 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,277 very different approach. We're saying, you know what, we're an American 98 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,637 company. We're an American bank that supports American companies and we will 99 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,437 comply with US law, but we will not 100 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,557 comply with spurious rulings from people 101 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,557 who have no real jurisdiction or authority over us. And you'll find a 102 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,397 very hard time finding a bank that takes that position. I'm not aware of any 103 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,957 other than us. >> How do you think about rolling out 104 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:58,957 products? A bank can do everything from 105 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,517 mortgages to equipment financing to 106 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,237 venture debt to capital raises. Take someone public. That's kind of what you 107 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,677 know, you go to a big bank, they're going to help you IPO. 108 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,837 >> What do you want to do first? 109 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,397 >> I think that right now, yeah, we look, we've just barely open, so give us a 110 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,957 little bit of time. The products that we are prioritizing are based entirely on 111 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,597 the customer feedback that we're getting, the things that they tell us 112 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,837 they need, the things that they tell us that we can most help with. In a way, 113 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,757 the existence of a bank to me is almost this antiquated thing. like you you 114 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:35,757 would hope that companies could really just do all of this stuff themselves or 115 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:39,757 at least most of it themselves. Uh but the the regulatory climate, the way that 116 00:06:39,840 --> 00:06:43,037 the banking system works requires that you have this intermediary in the form 117 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:44,717 of a regulated bank to make these things 118 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,277 happen. And so I I kind of think of our 119 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,757 business as part and parcel of these companies that need us and we're going 120 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:54,877 to work very very close closely with them and focus on the things that they 121 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,157 care about. It's probably not going to be, for example, uh, you know, 122 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,957 residential mortgages, uh, but things like equipment financing, very 123 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,237 conservative, you very conservatively played where it's not going to turn into 124 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,517 a risk management problem. Uh, allowing them to work with the legacy banking 125 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,797 system and plugging into that in the least painful way. These are things that 126 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,917 we have a lot of customers who are very interested. Oh, and we need to not lose 127 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,957 their money. Uh, if we can do that, we'll be doing better than many other banks. 128 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:22,717 >> Yes. Yes. 129 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,317 uh talk about the uh tradeoffs of going 130 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,317 the charter route. You know the last 10 131 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,037 years most of the banking products that 132 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,597 founders have used were uh built on top 133 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:38,877 of existing charters or or spreading deposits across multiple 134 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,437 >> people just avoid getting a charter at all. You they want to be a fintech 135 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,197 company and they basically will dance around the fact that realistically what 136 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,357 they're doing is basically being a bank. 137 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,237 Um, look, there's a lot of things that you can do without having your own 138 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,877 charter. There's things you can do partner with other companies. There's a 139 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:56,797 lot of things you cannot do without 140 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,677 having your own sort of risk. Anti 141 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,997 anti-hyperrowth like you can't just 142 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:07,437 scale to 50 billion of deposits tomorrow even if there's the demand, right? So 143 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,237 maybe >> we decided that we we decided that we 144 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,677 needed to get our own charter because of the type of bank we were going to try to 145 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,557 run and the ability to have the buck stop with us the moment that you're 146 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,637 dependent on somebody else for the key 147 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,037 infrastructure the key risk management 148 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,757 the key lensure questions they can kick you off the platform they can be forced 149 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,797 to kick you off the platform they might maybe they're doing it for good reasons 150 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,277 maybe they're doing it for bad reasons I mean you've seen this play out for 151 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,397 example with steam and their payment processors and their banks and their 152 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,837 payment processors banks where they're basically censoring games because 153 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,237 there's some circle of people who all claim it's not them pointing down the 154 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,797 chain. It's that guy's that guy. It's that guy. It's that guy. But they all 155 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,357 agree, even if they can't agree who's causing the censorship that if you don't 156 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:52,797 censor, they're going to drop you. 157 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:53,757 They're going to drop your account. 158 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,717 They're going to debank you. They're going to depayment you. And so, one of 159 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,397 the things that you have to ask yourself when you're making yourself dependent on 160 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,797 another bank or another payment company is, am I setting this up where they get 161 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,557 to make my decisions for me? and are they making their decisions for me or is 162 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,317 the Chinese Communist Party making those decisions? Is some political party that 163 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,317 is extremely hostile to some business on our network the one actually making that 164 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,117 decision? So, if you don't control your own charter, if you don't control your 165 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,477 own destiny, the buck doesn't stop with you and you're always going to have to 166 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:26,477 keep other parties happy. And I I think that was not something that we were 167 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:29,197 interested in. We wanted to be able to run the bank the way that we think it 168 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,197 needs to be run. And if we are debanking somebody, we are going to have to take 169 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,917 responsibility for that. And I think that actually leads to much better 170 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,437 behavior. I would love to see that type of behavior across the industry. 171 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,837 >> Uh physical branches. How are you thinking about that? 172 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,517 >> I think we're going to start with Fort Knox and then we'll expand from there. 173 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:48,557 >> I like it. 174 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,077 >> Yeah. Maybe actually dive deeper there. 175 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,637 Like what is a bank these days? I think most people can conceptualize like 176 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,957 setting up a crypto wallet that holds 177 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,117 coins, but when you want to hold real 178 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,997 dollars, uh you don't actually have a 179 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,317 physical bank vault, I imagine. So once you get the charter, does that just give 180 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,877 you the ability to like maintain a database and a ledger like what is a 181 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,997 bank? >> What is a bank? I mean there's lots of 182 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,797 forms it can be. I think if you want all the details, you can actually read 183 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,277 through a lot of our applications. Some of it's actually a matter of public 184 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,517 record and you can see that and will 185 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,157 sorry not Arabore will have a physical 186 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,477 vault and we will have a lot of treasure 187 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:33,997 in it. So we are not trying to be a pure digital pure uh you know pure ether 188 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,477 company and in fact a lot of the companies that are very interested in 189 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:41,197 working with us want us to have secure actual vaulted storage. I'm not saying 190 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,237 that that's going to be the first thing that we focus on. That's our key 191 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,637 differentiator. But we are not a we are not a bank of the ether. We are we we we 192 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,837 are of Terrairma. >> Yeah. Last time you came on, we talked a 193 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,077 lot about Mod Retro. I'd love an update 194 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,877 on the M64. What makes that product 195 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,837 special? Where did you go further with this project than with the Chromatic? 196 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,477 And just general like how you're thinking about the M64. 197 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:08,797 >> Well, for people who aren't familiar with it, the M64 is a tribute to the 198 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,037 Nintendo 64 that I'm building. One of the greatest multiplayer consoles of all 199 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,357 time. We're building a console that is 200 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,917 compatible with all classic N64 games. 201 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,517 We're re-releasing a lot of classic N64 games so that you can buy them if you 202 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,597 don't already have them. We're actually doing new releases of canceled N64 games 203 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:28,957 that never even made it to market either because they were cancelled and ported 204 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,357 to GameCube or because they ran out of money or because the studios imploded 205 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,117 for interpersonality reasons. It's there's a lot of cool stuff coming out. 206 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,957 Uh the M64, I guess the main update is that it's in mass production right now. 207 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,677 It is it is not eventually coming. It is in mass production right now. Uh we've 208 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,277 decided we're not going to launch it until we build up sufficient stock to 209 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,157 meet the demand. One of the mistakes I think we made with the mod retro 210 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,157 chromatic which was a tribute to the Game Boy and Game Boy Color was that we 211 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,997 started selling them and then all of a sudden we sold out and then you have 212 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,797 people who hear about it, they read about it, their friends are all talking 213 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,677 about it, they go to try to buy one and they can't buy one cuz it's sold out. 214 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,797 And there's a question, will they remember to come back and buy it some 215 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:13,117 other time? Will they still feel like going and immediately buying it? Yeah, 216 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,717 >> exactly. And so you kind of end up with this with this dead end call to action. 217 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,397 And so we've decided this time, and by the way, this is especially bad for the 218 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:21,837 game publishers that we're working with. 219 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,397 Let's say that it's someone who's re-releasing a game or somebody who's 220 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,117 doing a brand new game. Some of the indie developers we're working with on 221 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,157 the Chromatic, they're out there promoting their game. They're trying to 222 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,797 market their game. They're doing all a whole marketing activation trying to 223 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,757 convince people, hey, come and buy my new Game Boy game. Come and buy my new 224 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,437 Nintendo 64 game. Well, what happens if you can't buy the console? A lot of 225 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,037 people like, oh, I'll come back later and buy it. and then they don't. And so 226 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:44,797 what we want to do is not let down our 227 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,997 developer partners this time and make 228 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,557 sure that we maintain stock. So the goal is that the M64, no matter how many 229 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,557 people hit our website, is not going to sell out. And so we are mass- 230 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,477 prodducing. We're stockpiling, I think, tens of thousands of them so far. More 231 00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:04,157 and more to come. >> What is the uh what is the launching soon? 232 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,157 >> What's the supply chain actually like right now? We've covered uh the the 233 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,517 gamer rebellion against against AI memory. 234 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,917 >> Gamers are rising up. >> You know, the supply chain is okay 235 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,117 because of the type of hardware that we're building. Uh there's a lot of 236 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,877 consumer hardware right now where people are trying to buy memory and it's a huge 237 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,917 problem. Um but remember that the 238 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,877 Nintendo 64 doesn't have exactly a lot 239 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,197 of memory. You know, it had what what 16 megabytes by default, 32 megabytes with 240 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,757 the expansion pack. And so it turns out 241 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,197 that you don't need that much memory to 242 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,917 uh perfectly replicate the Nintendo 64 original. 243 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,837 >> Maybe it might be it might it might be actually the least imp less the least 244 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,717 memory impacted consumer electronics product of the year. 245 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,797 >> And so this was this was your plan then all along the AI boom was coming and you 246 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,277 said I'm going to make the the final console. 247 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,837 >> Yeah. >> No, we got to return to monkey. We got 248 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:03,997 we got to go to go back to the beginning. Uh, I mean, really, what am I 249 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,637 doing here with something with 32 megabytes of I mean, you you remember 250 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,597 what uh you remember what Bill Gates said, right? What what was it? 64 251 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:14,077 kilobytes of RAM ought to be enough for anyone. Uh, let's let's let's figure out 252 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:15,997 how to use AI to Yeah, let's figure out 253 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:17,677 how to use AI to build applications that 254 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,517 fit within reasonable memory footprints. 255 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,357 >> I'm only half kidding. I think you might 256 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,037 have seen me going back and forth with Shimoth on Twitter a couple weeks ago 257 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,157 talking about uh how this AI software 258 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,557 platform for building uh building 259 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,037 software using AI should definitely 260 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,397 support export uh to uh Windows XP 261 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,557 Service Pack 3 compatible applications and I really am only half kidding there 262 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,757 there is actually a lot of government hardware that is still running those 263 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,197 financial hardware that's still running these mostly offline stuff and so having 264 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,117 apps that can run on those is actually useful but man it feels crazy to need a 265 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,837 few gigabytes of RAM to have a start menu. It feels pretty crazy that you 266 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,717 need 16 GB of RAM to take 30 minutes to search through a bunch of text files. 267 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,557 Surely we can do better than this. 268 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,717 >> Can you talk a little bit about how you 269 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,757 think about gaming in the concept of uh 270 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,317 just raising the next generation kids? I 271 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,837 have three three kids and uh I think I 272 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:15,917 could probably get an emulator and run 273 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,877 it on an iPad and slam that over to my 274 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,077 kid's face and uh he might not know the 275 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,717 difference. But is there another angle 276 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,437 to the M64 that is about like some of 277 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,677 the some of the things that you can't do with it are actually good for the world? 278 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,437 Maybe. I mean, you have to remember that the gaming industry, like many 279 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,357 industries, figured out what actually worked a long time ago. They figured out 280 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,837 how to make fun games. They figured out how to make things that make people keep 281 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,677 coming back. But it's moved from innovation to extraction. And I will 282 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,837 note, I stole that line from Nurav Patel, founder of Framework, because he 283 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,637 put it so much better than I did. But there's these industries that have moved 284 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,077 from innovation to extraction and they're now in the extraction phase 285 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,357 where they try to make tons and tons and tons of money and actually pushing the 286 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,917 limits is not the top priority for some 287 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,437 huge majority of the dollars that are in 288 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,757 industry. And so there's a lot of stuff that you can learn especially when 289 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,117 you're learning it from the ground up by going back to when people were just 290 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,597 getting the basics right when they were still innovating building things that 291 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:22,157 were really compelling to people. Um, I I I recently had a kid I and I have a 292 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,397 second on the way. I'm planning on starting them with I don't even know if 293 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,437 I'd say the classics. This isn't like a vintage play. It's it's starting them 294 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:34,477 with a good foundation. That foundation happens to be largely old games. Uh, but 295 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,077 I am not going to be throwing them into the slot machine microtransaction 296 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,797 gambarama that is dominating kids games today. It just seems like like like a 297 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,517 crazy thing to do. >> It's a Skinner box. Yeah, don't go in 298 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,077 the Skinner box. uh talk about vibe 299 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:53,917 coding. What would uh your life be like if vibe coding existed when you were 20? 300 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:58,077 Advice for >> or 12 >> people who are 20 now in the world of 301 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,637 vibe coding. You went into hardware very early. That feels like a great move. Is 302 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,477 that still a great move? Walk us through all that. 303 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,357 >> I mean the the the biggest beneficiaries 304 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,837 of vibe coding are going to be the hardware nerds like me. It's going to be 305 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,997 it's going to be the the the the shape 306 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,277 rotators. uh not the word cells. 307 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:20,477 Everyone's focused on on on on how the words on on the word cells are going to 308 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,837 be wiped out by AI, but but but for the shape rotators, it's going to be 309 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,357 incredible. Uh you know, I was always a pretty terrible software engineer. I'm I 310 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,357 am I'm not a programmer by trade. I've taught myself enough to glue things 311 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,837 together and make them work. But when I started my first company, Oculus, or 312 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,797 actually when I started Mod Retro, uh when I was 14 or 15, you know, I I knew 313 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,717 just barely enough about software. If I would have been able to build crappy 314 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,157 stuff by outsourcing it to a computer, I actually would have been able to 315 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,957 accomplish things a lot faster than trying to do it myself. And people might 316 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,757 say, Palmer, you should have just learned to code. You know, you sure 317 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,557 should should have should have just learned to do it yourself. But I think 318 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,317 uh it's pretty easy to look at my track record and realize I started Oculus when 319 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:05,117 I was 19 after building prototypes since I was 15. I was only able to accomplish 320 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,037 what I accomplished because I focused on what I was good at, which was opto 321 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,917 mechanics, a little bit of electrical, and then the product integration of all 322 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,117 of these different components. I didn't have time to learn to program. If id 323 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,437 spent another year or two learning to program at even a reasonable level, I 324 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,717 would have been 2 years behind on everything else. And so, I am a big fan 325 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,917 of vibe coding. Even if everything that comes out of it is slop, even if it is 326 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,477 all [__] uh it's better than I was able to make. 327 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,117 >> Mhm. Uh how are you thinking about VR 328 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,837 these days? I recently watched The 329 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,917 Matrix from start to finish in an Apple 330 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,957 Vision Pro. I enjoyed it. It feels like 331 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,117 the only real thing that you can do these days is just the home theater if 332 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,077 you don't have a home theater. But it doesn't feel like the industry's 333 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,757 embraced that at all. Uh and everyone's sort of writing down their investments 334 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,637 and pulling back at a time when the 335 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,677 display technology does seem to be good enough for that narrow use case if you 336 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,437 cut out the weight and move things around. But where do you see this? Where 337 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,117 do you where do you want consumer VR to go? And then where do you think it 338 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,877 actually is going? >> So I will challenge your premise there, 339 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,317 which is that people are pulling back. I think that's driven mostly by people uh 340 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,997 sensationalizing meta, firing a bunch of people. But you have to remember they 341 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,477 got rid of 10% of the reality labs team 342 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:23,037 in one layoff. Remember that they have something like 8 or 9% annual churn 343 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:26,157 naturally and organically, not including firing. Sure. 344 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:27,357 >> I mean, what you're really talking about 345 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,757 is basically pulling 6 months of churn forward into a single month. And they're 346 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,597 still spending more on VR than anybody by an order of magnitude. They've said 347 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,277 they are not spending less on content. 348 00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:41,837 They're just not putting it into first party stuff like uh Facebook Meta 349 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,717 Horizon. You might have seen they've announced Meta Horizons is no longer a 350 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,797 VR app. As of yesterday, it is now a mobile focused app only. What they've 351 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,717 done is they've basically killed a few of these failing efforts that didn't 352 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,477 make sense and they're now putting those resources into things that are working. 353 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,037 And so I I I've I wrote a I wrote a I I wrote a bit about this on on Twitter 354 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:04,717 where people need to understand this is not the end of VR. It's not it's not 355 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,037 collapsing. They are still spending >> an enormous amount of money. They're 356 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:13,997 bigger than anybody else by an order of magnitude. Um I I and I think if you pay 357 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,437 attention to what's going to be coming out from Meta and others over the next 358 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,837 12 months, you're going to see a lot of progress. Like Apple Vision Pro, yes, 359 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,597 they so yes, Apple Vision Pro was ahead of everybody on visual quality on 360 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,237 display quality. But let me tell you a short story. 361 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:29,917 >> Imagine that an American company went to 362 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,837 a Japanese display vendor and they said, "We want you to sell us your new 4K 363 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,157 micro OLED displays." The company gives them samples of those micro OLED 364 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,157 displays. The samples cost about $1,000 each because the yield on that 365 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,317 production line is only about 10%. In 366 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,437 other words, 90% of the displays coming off the production line are uh not up to 367 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,797 par. They're not working. And that's because these are engineering samples. 368 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,797 They're not meant to actually be a working product. And they said, "Listen, 369 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,077 here's our engineering samples. Just wait 2 years and the yield is going to 370 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,437 be up to 90%. We'll be able to sell these to you for a couple hundred." And 371 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,757 then imagine that that American tech company had a a guy named Tim Apple call 372 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,477 them up and say, "No, we're going to build a product with this right now 373 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:11,917 today using our engineering samples." 374 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,997 They said, "But Tim, Apple, that's crazy. That means that your headset was 375 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,317 going to cost like $3,000." He said, "I 376 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,637 don't care. I'm going to sell a headset 377 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,957 that should launch in 27 in 2024, 2025, 378 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,877 and I'm going to do it for $3,500." 379 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,717 That's what Apple Vision Pro is. It was never intended to be a product of the 380 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,957 times. It's a product of the future hauled into the present by spending 381 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:39,357 enormous amounts of money. And so Meta and Sony and Apple and Google and all of 382 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,917 these other companies, they are going to be hitting that level of visual 383 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,717 fidelity. They're going to be doing it with headsets that are far smaller, far 384 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,397 lighter than what you see from Vision Pro. And I I actually remain very 385 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,477 optimistic. Um that's great. I I think things are going pretty well. 386 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,877 >> I I'm extremely optimistic. It's mostly just uh that when I when I try and pull 387 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,237 stuff out of meta, they're like, "No, no, no. We're not ready to talk." And I 388 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,957 think that they're just being cold shoulder to me because like they don't 389 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,797 want to leak it yet. But I I am very >> Well, you know what the problem is? They 390 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,917 don't have a they don't they don't have a charming, charismatic pitch man who 391 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,717 knows how to talk about this stuff with you. They got to solve that. They need 392 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,717 to figure out what they're doing. You know, I it reminds me of uh of of 393 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,637 something being here. I'm on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange uh behind 394 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,477 me >> and uh back in the Oculus days when we 395 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,397 sold the company to Meta. One of the first things that happened was New York 396 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,797 Stock Exchange emailed our contact info email and they asked if I would come and 397 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,597 ring the bell to the New York Stock Exchange. Sounds pretty cool, right? 398 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,717 Like, hey, like you've been acquired by this major public corporation in the 399 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,477 form of Facebook. Come and ring the bell. Maybe, you know, maybe someday you 400 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,237 will do something else with you. And unfortunately, 401 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,957 I didn't see that email for about 7 years because another Oculus executive 402 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,237 intercepted the email said, "Oh no, Palmer can't make it, but I would love 403 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,477 to come." and he came and he rang the bell without telling me about it and uh 404 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,557 so uh I found out a bit about it later 405 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,797 in unrelated litigation that email came 406 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,157 up in Discovery and uh uh anyway I' I' 407 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,157 I've not had a chance to ring the bell yet. Maybe when Andrew goes public I'll 408 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,837 finally be able to I'll finally be able to ring that bell but I got to admit I 409 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,717 have a I have a long memory and a long memory of grudges and I won't say who it 410 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,557 was but uh but but but there's probably a handful of people out there who can guess. 411 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,997 >> You you you have a lot of co-founders now, a lot of executives that you work 412 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,317 with. How do you select for folks who won't do that to you? How do you select 413 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,637 the right people extreme loyalty, trust? 414 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,797 I don't know. I mean, it's important. We just kicked this thing off a year ago. 415 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,797 >> Look, I started Oculus when I was 19 years old. 416 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,677 >> Um, and I I mean, it's you you also got 417 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,157 to remember the story of who is a founder, who is a co-founder. It's it's 418 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,317 fluid and dynamic and always changing with the eb and flow of history. One of 419 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,037 my ideas is to have a blockchain company where everyone agrees what the founding 420 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:58,477 story is and who the co-founders are and then it goes into the blockchain so that 421 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,437 nobody can come back and say that they're a co-founder. There's a guy 422 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,197 running around now who says that he's a 423 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,157 co-founder of of of Oculus who was very 424 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,037 much so not a co-founder and in fact 425 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:10,957 >> I swear I swear I think I met this guy. 426 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,597 I told you the story off air. A guy I was at 427 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,197 >> Tell me the story. So, I'm at a I was at a dinner party at my friend's house and 428 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,117 my buddy was like, "Hey, this guy works at uh I'm not going to name the company, 429 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,877 but uh you guys probably have some tech stuff in common you guys should meet." 430 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,677 And I go up to him, I said, "Hey, hi. I I hear we should meet." And he's like, 431 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,437 "Hey, I was like, "What's your story?" 432 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,837 He's like, "I started a company called 433 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,877 uh Oculus now at Meta." And I was like, 434 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:40,317 "Oh, interesting. Like, never heard of you before." And so, it might it may be 435 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,597 this guy. We won't put him on blast. 436 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,317 >> Here's the crazy thing. I don't even know who you're talking about when you 437 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,637 talk about >> and I told him he was like because 438 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,797 there's multiple people who are saying this including a guy who literally has a 439 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,477 documentary being made about him how he's the founder of Oculus. So, it's 440 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,797 it's it's all >> you'll appreciate. You'll appreciate. I 441 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,317 was like, "Oh, that's that's awesome." 442 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,437 Like, uh, Palmer comes on the show all 443 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,517 the time. And then he completely back backtracked and was like was like, 444 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,277 "Well, yeah, yeah, yeah." You know, I I joined like, you know, uh, you know, and 445 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:13,117 and but I was on the founding team like he he he backtracked. But 446 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,157 >> well, look, you so but to the point you asked me, how do you select these 447 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,877 people? Carefully. I was 19 years old when I selected the first people that I 448 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,477 was working with. I've learned a lot. 449 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,677 I've been stabbed in the back a lot and I'd probably make very different 450 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,037 decisions if I were doing it today. And it's worth noting, remember that I 451 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:33,837 started Oculus on my own with no co-founders, nobody involved in a lot of 452 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,357 like I brought on people that I am happy to call co-founders even though they 453 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,197 didn't join the company until months later who I had never met when I started 454 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,757 the company. Um, that said, I'm hap there's some people I'm honored to share 455 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,637 the the title of co-founder with and there's other people that I'm not, which 456 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,677 is why I really want this blockchain thing. Somebody needs that vibe code 457 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,237 this slop and get it out there. 458 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,397 >> Super important question. Have you played Federal Reserve Simulator yet? 459 00:25:58,480 --> 00:25:59,917 It's a new game. >> It's on Steam. 460 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,917 >> On Steam. You got to try it out. 461 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,517 >> You're a banker. I've not even heard of it. 462 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,677 >> You're a banker now. You got to get the rap. Really enjoy this. Federal Reserve 463 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,197 Simulator. >> Federal Reserve. I think I It's right 464 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,437 there on the screen. It says Trump says 465 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,637 we have an incompetent Federal Reserve chair who loves high interest rates. 466 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,237 Very, very interesting. >> Uh, what what hardware are you 467 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,317 collecting recently? We we just learned you can buy a steam powered car and 468 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:27,117 drive it around. 469 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,957 >> Jay Leno has one that's 120 years old. 470 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,597 >> What hardware am I buying? Am I buying >> collecting? Not just buying collecting. 471 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,357 >> Yeah. What am I What am I Well, so I I have a I There's a few things I could 472 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,277 bring up to be honest. I've been too busy to buy really good stuff. But um I 473 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:45,277 recently got delivered one of the first 474 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:50,477 Jetson uh Jetson ones which is a small EV tall aircraft. I was one of their 475 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,157 first customers and their first delivery. Um I also have a collection of 476 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,957 motorcycles. The theme of the collection is commercial failure. And so all of my 477 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,477 motorcycles were huge commercial failures. The more of a failure the 478 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,717 better. And so uh I've been buying some 479 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,237 some failed two-wheel drive motorcycles. 480 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,397 I've military motorcycles. >> How do they ride? 481 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,837 >> Oh, incredible. Look, look, there's really bad failed motorcycles. There's 482 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,397 other that failed because they're too good. One of the crown jewels in my 483 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,397 collection is a Honda Rune. Uh it was basically a personal project created by 484 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,557 the CEO of Honda. The the document that they used when they were creating it has 485 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,077 actually been leaked now. And at the 486 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,317 start of the document, it says 487 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,677 performance is the only object. Price is 488 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,837 of no importance. And so they wanted to 489 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,157 build the ultimate cruising motorcycle. 490 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,717 And the story goes that they lost over 491 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,837 $100,000 per bike in the end. And so I've got one of the one of the handful 492 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,077 of Honda runes that made it out of that program. A beautiful Honda Honda Room 493 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:55,037 with uh with with a couple thousand miles, metallic purple and chrome. And 494 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:58,157 it's it's it's one of my favorite motorcycles, if not the favorite. So 495 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,797 commercial failure doesn't mean a product's bad. It just means they 496 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,637 couldn't figure out how to make a business out of it. 497 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,277 >> Back to your Jets one. Uh, have you been 498 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:08,717 flying it? Are you taking it like half a foot off the ground and then a foot off 499 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,957 the ground? What What is the path to uh 500 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,037 commuting to work in it? 501 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:16,717 >> I think given the regulatory climate 502 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,037 around EVOL aircraft, it's best that I 503 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:23,837 not say one more word. >> Perfect. Perfect. Where do you Where do 504 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,597 you get your shirts? >> Where do I got my shirts? Well, it 505 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,477 depends. I buy I buy Tommy Bahamas. Um, this one is a rain spooner and all 506 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,477 Hawaiian shirt. So, I've got a Sentry 507 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,117 Tower. Um, I've got a Ghost X on it. And 508 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,557 they're they're headquartered on on 509 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,997 Catalina Island, California and Avalon. 510 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,397 >> Um, so I I I buy a I buy I buy from a whole bunch of different places. I'm not 511 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,280 I'm an equal opportunity Hawaiian shirt purchaser. I like