WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.317 Today's going to be a fun one. We're going to dive into all things new media. 00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:08.517 What is new media? What the new media team is doing here at A16Z, what we're 00:00:08.600 --> 00:00:11.277 focused on, where we're going in 2026. 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:14.960 Really stoked to be making this happen. 00:00:15.600 --> 00:00:19.997 Ben had this quote which I think summarizes some of the some of the one 00:00:20.080 --> 00:00:21.837 of the main principles of of new media. 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:25.877 I just want to, you know, read a small small part of it and then have you 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:30.317 elaborate. Uh old media is defense-oriented and in new media 00:00:30.400 --> 00:00:32.397 offense is always better than defense. 00:00:32.480 --> 00:00:36.197 We've spent many years fretting about our results being leaked. Old media 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:40.677 tries to please every audience. Old media is terrified of upsetting people 00:00:40.760 --> 00:00:44.397 and new media only cares about being interesting. When in doubt, flood the 00:00:44.480 --> 00:00:50.077 zone. >> Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like something I said. 00:00:50.160 --> 00:00:53.877 >> W- Why don't you share some of the tenets behind that idea and 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:55.517 how you came to it? 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:59.157 >> Yeah, so I actually it's interesting um 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:02.837 it it's a really weird adjustment going from 00:01:02.920 --> 00:01:07.117 you know, I mean, I spent my whole career in old media or dealing with old 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:09.317 media and now we're in new media. 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:13.317 You know, kind of in the history of the firm we've been 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:15.197 the the one thing that we really really 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:17.237 really really defended against was 00:01:17.320 --> 00:01:20.717 basically leaked results. And uh 00:01:20.800 --> 00:01:23.437 the reason and it goes back to 00:01:23.520 --> 00:01:26.637 in the pretty early days of the firm, uh 00:01:26.720 --> 00:01:28.957 the New York Times 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:32.237 got a leak of our results. And they they 00:01:32.320 --> 00:01:36.637 were very I mean, we were like a young firm, so most of the funds were like a 00:01:36.720 --> 00:01:40.077 year old. Um and you know, venture capital firms 00:01:40.160 --> 00:01:43.797 don't have high returns in the first year cuz like nothing happens in the 00:01:43.880 --> 00:01:46.477 first year. It's not like a stock market 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:51.197 type thing. And so, you know, that 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:53.877 they missed or maybe it's the Wall Street Journal. I mean, one of the two, 00:01:53.960 --> 00:01:58.397 but they misinterpreted the results. Um you know, so they kind of said, "Well, 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:02.477 the early funds were good cuz those had enough years to get kind of returns in 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:04.757 them, but like fund three was terrible 00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:07.557 and like da da da da da and so forth." 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:11.477 And there was no, um, you know, because 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:15.997 old media was still powerful, it was very hard to combat it. 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:18.797 You know, we put out statements and this and that and the other and blog posts 00:02:18.880 --> 00:02:24.517 but explaining like why they were wrong, um, but it didn't land and it was such a 00:02:24.600 --> 00:02:28.197 like a inside the firm it was such a big crisis 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.957 that actually I'm pretty sure Balaji quit because he 00:02:32.040 --> 00:02:35.597 thought we were dead cuz the New York Times had just like ruined the whole 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:38.677 firm with that uh article. Um, so it was 00:02:38.760 --> 00:02:42.477 like that kind of existential a threat. 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:45.717 And so, you know, we were very oriented 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:50.637 around like, "Okay, don't let anything out that could be misinterpreted or this 00:02:50.720 --> 00:02:53.597 or that cuz you can never correct it. It goes out there and you're never going to 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:57.397 kind of come back from it." >> And and and say more about the the flood 00:02:57.480 --> 00:03:00.037 the zone concept in terms of of of why 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:04.437 it works or or or you know, why and and why it's so different than uh than you 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:06.757 know, what happened in the past. 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:09.917 >> Yeah, well, so in the past the 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:11.557 traditionally 00:03:11.640 --> 00:03:14.757 it didn't count if it wasn't in the Wall 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:17.477 Street Journal or the New York Times or 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:22.037 like the Economist or CNN or like there were 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:24.437 maybe eight channels that could say 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:29.197 something and then whatever they said was permanent and that like once it was 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:32.677 out there, it was very hard to deal with. And it would be top of Google 00:03:32.760 --> 00:03:36.797 results like the whole thing. Um, 00:03:36.880 --> 00:03:41.677 but now you know, like we can go on, Mark and I, 00:03:41.760 --> 00:03:46.917 if it we really had a problem could go on 30 podcasts, uh, all of which get a 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:48.637 much bigger audience than any of the 00:03:48.720 --> 00:03:51.597 publications I talked about. Um, and 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:55.717 just basically And we wouldn't have to talk about that. 00:03:55.800 --> 00:03:58.637 We could go talk about something else more interesting. 00:03:58.720 --> 00:04:03.437 Um, and erase that from everybody's memory very quickly. So, it's just you 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:07.397 know, without commenting on what's a better world like the laws of physics 00:04:07.480 --> 00:04:08.957 are completely different in this world 00:04:09.040 --> 00:04:11.917 than the other world. And I I think to 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.117 be effective uh, as a organization in 00:04:15.200 --> 00:04:16.757 marketing and media 00:04:16.840 --> 00:04:20.317 you have to like you you have to embrace 00:04:20.400 --> 00:04:23.437 the new world because you can't be half 00:04:23.520 --> 00:04:27.517 and half. The because the whole motion of the old 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:29.997 world will kill you in the new world. 00:04:30.080 --> 00:04:33.597 And and vice versa. And so, you have to kind 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:38.797 of commit to we're going to really care about what goes down through the old 00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:43.277 channels or we're not going to give a Um, sorry to use language and we're just 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:47.397 going to you know, say interesting things and flood the zone. And uh, we're 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:49.877 doing the latter by the way. >> There's a whole uh, 00:04:49.960 --> 00:04:54.757 history to this. But but basically like the the the whole idea that there's like a 00:04:54.840 --> 00:04:57.877 quote unquote corporate brand. Like the whole idea that there's like a corporate 00:04:57.960 --> 00:05:00.677 like trademark. And then the whole idea that there you like as a business you 00:05:00.760 --> 00:05:03.237 basically load everything into that into that into that thing. And that that 00:05:03.320 --> 00:05:06.157 thing you know, whether it's General Electric or International Business 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:09.277 Machines or whatever. The you know, the idea that that thing is somehow 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:12.517 abstracted away from the people involved. Um, and then that the people 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:15.917 involved, you know, their main job is to try to kind of buff that thing. Which 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:18.397 kind of you know, led to this you know, you know, 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:20.997 when we look at it is like it led to this like maybe your kind of reign of 00:05:21.080 --> 00:05:23.877 like everything being synthetic and plastic and boring, right? Where like 00:05:23.960 --> 00:05:26.877 the you know, we we Ben and I have had this experience for many many decades at 00:05:26.960 --> 00:05:30.517 this point. Um, it's just like you know, the the the job of a corporate CEO for a 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.437 very long time was to get up on stage and just say absolutely nothing 00:05:33.520 --> 00:05:37.197 in any sort of public public event. Um, I I actually was on a board of the CEO 00:05:37.280 --> 00:05:41.117 who very firmly uh, believed this. Um, and uh, he literally would come off 00:05:41.200 --> 00:05:44.357 stage having having very deliberately said absolutely nothing and would have 00:05:44.440 --> 00:05:48.637 been thrilled. Um, because like he he had made no news of like mission mission 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:52.277 accomplished, right? And anyway, so Eric, to your question, like basically I 00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:55.037 think the retrospective view on this what happened was basically in the past 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:58.637 your communication channels were just like super narrow, right? And so and so 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.877 how could you get a message through to the mass market or to your audience your 00:06:01.960 --> 00:06:05.957 to your customer base? Um, you could only do it by kind of sending 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:08.797 in a message that was encoded into as few bits as possible, right? Cuz that 00:06:08.880 --> 00:06:12.317 was kind of your only shot because it was always limited by you know, TV 00:06:12.400 --> 00:06:15.357 broadcast airtime or it was limited by newspaper column inches or whatever. And 00:06:15.440 --> 00:06:18.197 so you just you had to kind of crystallize everything down to this kind 00:06:18.280 --> 00:06:21.997 of min minimal and sort of least offensive, you know, kind of possible 00:06:22.080 --> 00:06:24.357 position. But but it's always been a natural 00:06:24.440 --> 00:06:27.837 because as human beings like that it does like it it never felt right. Like, 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:30.237 you know, it always felt like weird cuz it's like this, you know, corporation is 00:06:30.320 --> 00:06:32.557 like this weird other kind of alien thing. 00:06:32.640 --> 00:06:35.117 You know, it it always felt weird and uncomfortable and we and we just kind of 00:06:35.200 --> 00:06:37.997 got used to it and it just, you know, it turns out as 00:06:38.080 --> 00:06:39.597 as as our friend Mitt Romney famously 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:41.957 said, corporations are people, too. Um, 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:45.757 and right? And like poor Mitt. 00:06:45.840 --> 00:06:48.717 Yeah, he was using it in a different context. Uh, he he was not he was not 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:51.437 calling to change in PR, but um but uh 00:06:51.520 --> 00:06:56.037 you know, for our purposes, um you know, like this is 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:58.437 it's all about people. Like it's all about the decisions that people make. 00:06:58.520 --> 00:07:01.757 Like when when you know, when a when a big company or a government agency or a 00:07:01.840 --> 00:07:05.797 nonprofit or a venture firm or a startup is like making decisions and acting in 00:07:05.880 --> 00:07:08.317 the world, that's people. Like that you know, there's there there there are you 00:07:08.400 --> 00:07:11.357 know, there there are some set of people um who are sitting around making that 00:07:11.440 --> 00:07:14.837 decision. And I and I just think like and and then it's kind of you know, it's 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:17.317 kind of this almost I don't know, like shock therapy or something where it's 00:07:17.400 --> 00:07:20.117 just like if the people who are actually making 00:07:20.200 --> 00:07:22.717 the calls actually like show up and talk on their own behalf and explain 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:25.317 themselves and actually say what they think it like blows everybody's minds, 00:07:25.400 --> 00:07:27.557 right? It's just it's just, you know, it's it's the you know, it's the 00:07:27.640 --> 00:07:30.597 response people have to, you know, Elon and the response people have to, you 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:32.677 know, certain other, you know, people who are now, you know, kind of very 00:07:32.760 --> 00:07:34.917 notable in the environment who are running large large things who are very 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:37.917 public and vocal. It's just kind of this thing of like and it's just it's almost 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:40.117 like this thing where it's like, well, you know, they can't say that. And it's 00:07:40.200 --> 00:07:43.077 like, well, wait a minute. Number one, they can say that, like, you know, 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:45.477 they're allowed to. They're like an adult in the United States of America. 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:47.557 Like, they're allowed to say, you know, whatever they want. Number one. Number 00:07:47.640 --> 00:07:51.437 two, like, how about they actually tell us what they think? Like, how about we hear 00:07:51.520 --> 00:07:53.677 directly from them so that we can actually understand what they're 00:07:53.760 --> 00:07:56.637 thinking and who they are, you know, and how they're processing reality and what 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.317 the what their assumptions are. Um and and of course the the technological cost 00:08:00.400 --> 00:08:02.797 for this is just that, you know, that that narrow media funnel just got like 00:08:02.880 --> 00:08:04.597 completely blown to smithereens, right? 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:06.997 In large part as a consequence of all the work that, you know, that we that, 00:08:07.080 --> 00:08:10.877 you know, all of us have done uh on this call over the last 30 years. And so, 00:08:10.960 --> 00:08:14.197 like, it it's just, you know, and you could kind of maybe say, you know, love 00:08:14.280 --> 00:08:18.077 it or hate it, like, the the the the the days of kind of this narrow channel 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:21.317 narrowcasting and then what I would argue is just this like inherently 00:08:21.400 --> 00:08:25.157 deceptive practice um of abstracting things away from people. I you know, 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:26.837 that that world is just clearly fading. 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:29.237 Um and in the new world we're we're just going to hear direct from people. And I, 00:08:29.320 --> 00:08:32.117 you know, and look, I'm not a utopian and it's not going to 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:35.797 be like 100% better, but I I think there's no question it's a big net improvement. 00:08:35.880 --> 00:08:39.117 >> Yeah, and by the way, you know, the other um 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:43.557 thing that's really interesting in retrospect is 00:08:43.640 --> 00:08:46.717 the things that people got in trouble for, uh 00:08:46.800 --> 00:08:52.037 canceled for, fired for, etc. in the past that they said in the press 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:55.797 were all just misinterpretations. 00:08:55.880 --> 00:09:00.517 So, they, you know, was somebody saying something and because it was so narrow 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:05.357 and because you could never erase it and because you could never come back and 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:08.877 defend it because the audience would be, you know, a thousandth of the size on 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:13.157 the defense. You know, people just it was all it 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:17.597 wasn't I said what I thought and people thought I was a horrible person. It was 00:09:17.680 --> 00:09:21.077 I said something, it got misinterpreted, and people thought I was a horrible 00:09:21.160 --> 00:09:24.997 person. So, now in this world where like, you know, 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:27.557 people say much more like aggressive 00:09:27.640 --> 00:09:29.637 things, I would just say in terms of, 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:32.237 you know, not being mainstream thinking, 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:37.117 but have room to explain it. Um they that that rarely happens anymore. So, 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:40.677 like, I mean, everything from like Howard Dean to 00:09:40.760 --> 00:09:44.637 you know, you name it. Like, in today's world, that that would 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:48.557 be nothing. Um, but in that world, because there was no 00:09:48.640 --> 00:09:53.557 chance to say, "Well, like, this is what happened." Um, 00:09:53.640 --> 00:09:57.717 you know, like, there there were just thousands of 00:09:57.800 --> 00:10:01.557 times when people have gotten to incredible trouble for things that they 00:10:01.640 --> 00:10:05.477 said that were misinterpreted uh that they could not correct. 00:10:05.560 --> 00:10:09.437 >> Yeah. And and Eric, you know, Ben Ben gave me good advice, you know, actually 00:10:09.520 --> 00:10:12.077 before you came on board, which I I'm trying my best to stick to, although I 00:10:12.160 --> 00:10:14.277 will tell you it is a significant personal challenge. 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:16.557 >> Yeah. >> Um, again, was not eating an entire box 00:10:16.640 --> 00:10:19.357 of Oreos and drinking an entire bottle of scotch every night, both of which I'm 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:23.077 also trying not to do. Um, so, cuz we live in a healthy world 00:10:23.160 --> 00:10:27.837 now. So, um, uh less self-destructive world. So, um, 00:10:27.920 --> 00:10:31.317 you know, Ben Ben Ben pointed out that like the see the what Ben just said 00:10:31.400 --> 00:10:33.597 basically applies into the new world actually just as much as the old world 00:10:33.680 --> 00:10:36.357 in in the sense of like when every time I've gotten myself in a like serious 00:10:36.440 --> 00:10:39.837 trouble like in public over the last decade, it's because I tweeted something. 00:10:39.920 --> 00:10:42.157 Um, and I mean, you know, everybody on here probably knows how much I love 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:44.757 Twitter and like it's great to be able to rip off the 100, you know, and I was 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:47.317 really good at like compressing something super controversial in 140 00:10:47.400 --> 00:10:50.517 characters and then really letting it rip with 280 characters. But Ben pointed 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:52.797 out like, "Look, every time every time somebody gets mad at you, you know, 00:10:52.880 --> 00:10:55.637 every just gets like completely ripped at you over over that, basically what's 00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:58.917 happened is it's out of context." Um, and so what what Ben said is, "Look, 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:02.197 just say everything that you think, but say it on a podcast. Right? Say say it 00:11:02.280 --> 00:11:05.277 in the context of an hour and a half discussion so that you can whatever it 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:08.277 is, you've surrounded it with the full explanation, or say it in the form of an 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:10.877 essay where you've like fully articulated your argument and and it's 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:15.117 fully in context." Um, and and just observationally, like, it in in not just 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:17.677 playing to myself, but just more broadly, it's actually interesting if 00:11:17.760 --> 00:11:20.437 you watch this to this day, when when public figures get blown to smithereens, 00:11:20.520 --> 00:11:23.557 it's almost always because of something that's basically too short. 00:11:23.640 --> 00:11:27.117 Um, when people actually do the full long long-form explanation of what they 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:29.677 think, even if it's on a highly controver you know, even if it's imputed 00:11:29.760 --> 00:11:32.917 to be highly controversial, whatever, if it's the full explanation, it is 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:36.197 actually harder to blow people up. And again and again, you could kind of say 00:11:36.280 --> 00:11:39.077 it's actually really funny. You know, when I was a kid, like, you 00:11:39.160 --> 00:11:41.397 know, the moral panic was around television, right? Kind of pre pre the 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:44.077 internet. And the moral panic in tele- a lot of moral panic in television always 00:11:44.160 --> 00:11:46.637 was around the concept of sound bites, which is you only ever get to hear like 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.997 5 seconds of what anybody's thoughts are. Right? And somehow television is 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:52.397 now the gold standard, you know, for information transmission. The internet's 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:55.437 evil. Like somehow it all flipped. But anyway, the point being is like the 00:11:55.520 --> 00:11:58.997 internet gives us the chance to not only express ourselves like in short form. 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:01.757 The internet specifically gives us the chance to express ourselves in long 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:03.597 form. Right? And fully explain things. 00:12:03.680 --> 00:12:05.477 And that's that's just so different. 00:12:05.560 --> 00:12:09.317 Like the the the the hour hour and a half two hour discussion with somebody 00:12:09.400 --> 00:12:12.677 who's like deeply into something and is really involved in something. Like yeah, 00:12:12.760 --> 00:12:15.717 I mean we all experience this as consumers. Like it's just so much better 00:12:15.800 --> 00:12:18.397 than the than the 30-second bit that, you know, might have been on the NBC 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:20.397 Nightly News 30 years ago. 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:23.117 >> And by the way, you know, the long form 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.477 of almost anything that's 00:12:26.560 --> 00:12:29.917 interesting, complex, a systems problem, 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:34.437 um which is most everything in politics and in technology, 00:12:34.520 --> 00:12:37.717 you need the long form. There is no sound bite that gives you any 00:12:37.800 --> 00:12:38.997 information. 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:44.757 Um and so you have to have uh a long conversation. So it is actually much 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:50.200 better. Or is it really? As far as thing 00:12:50.680 --> 00:12:54.597 But there's always that thing with sugar, you know, using bones or whatever 00:12:54.680 --> 00:12:56.357 to be whiter, that kind of thing. 00:12:56.440 --> 00:12:59.277 >> I'm going to eat a I'm going to eat a gigantic package of 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:02.917 Oreos tonight. Deborah's on her. I really appreciate it. 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.877 >> The Oh yeah, it's We've also talked about, you know, media training in the 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:09.837 past. Used to be around sort of, you know, how to stay out of trouble, this 00:13:09.920 --> 00:13:12.917 kind of thing. And that now you you know, if you're a CEO, you want to be, 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:15.837 you know, something uh you know, Jordi from TV personality's concept of a Joe 00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:19.837 Rogan CEO. I mean someone interesting enough to go on Joe Rogan for three 00:13:19.920 --> 00:13:23.197 hours, you know, someone like an Alex Karp, someone like a Palmer Lucky, 00:13:23.280 --> 00:13:27.997 right? And um is in And the flip side of that is that 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:31.357 uh you know, if you're interesting, you know, if you're powerful, you're you're 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:33.837 it's because you're interesting. Uh cuz that's what that's what people That's 00:13:33.920 --> 00:13:36.317 what people want to work for. It's you know, people want to be customers of. 00:13:36.400 --> 00:13:39.237 It's people want to invest in. Um and if you're powerful and interesting, you're 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:42.877 going to be controversial. And and and that's something that you guys have also 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:46.157 helped me get more more more accustomed to is like, "Hey, 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:47.997 we we you know, this is the big leagues. 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:52.037 You know, and there are people like who are going to be mad at what we're doing. 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:55.837 And and that is that that's a In some ways, that's a good thing. That's That's 00:13:55.920 --> 00:13:59.637 evidence of our of our power and and our interestingness." 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:02.597 >> Yeah, no, I think that's right. And I think it you know, it's hard th- th- 00:14:02.680 --> 00:14:05.597 this is another kind of crossover between the old world and the new world 00:14:05.680 --> 00:14:07.757 cuz if you're a corporate brand, 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.397 then you know, you try and keep all the 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:15.597 dust off the brand and and, you know, try and be uh something that nobody 00:14:15.680 --> 00:14:18.677 hates. Uh I guess for lack of a better word. And 00:14:18.760 --> 00:14:23.517 then, you know, I think in today's world, to be good at marketing, you've got to 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:27.477 be interesting. To be interesting If you're interesting and powerful, there 00:14:27.560 --> 00:14:29.957 are going to be a lot of people who don't like you. 00:14:30.040 --> 00:14:32.597 Um and that's like that's a good thing. 00:14:32.680 --> 00:14:36.557 Um and I was very happy to see by the way the infrared piece cuz 00:14:36.640 --> 00:14:41.437 we can get like a nice piece on like a subsection of the firm, but nobody's 00:14:41.520 --> 00:14:45.317 ever going to write like a really nice thing about the law firm. Um 00:14:45.400 --> 00:14:50.197 I think that you know, also uh it's a 00:14:50.280 --> 00:14:54.797 This whole new world is much better for founder CEOs because to be a founder, 00:14:54.880 --> 00:14:58.717 you have to have an original idea. And original ideas are interesting by 00:14:58.800 --> 00:15:02.797 nature. I think that professional CEOs um 00:15:02.880 --> 00:15:05.557 often get to that position through very 00:15:05.640 --> 00:15:08.637 careful politicking, which uh kind of is 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:13.277 the opposite where you want to be uncontroversial. Like nobody can ding 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:17.757 you right as you get to them thing. And you know, Mark and I have uh been on, 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:20.797 you know, Mark much more than me, but been on large boards. Where on the large 00:15:20.880 --> 00:15:25.197 boards, you know, when it comes to picking the professional CEO 00:15:25.280 --> 00:15:27.917 they're all about what's not wrong with him. 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.717 Not what's right with him. Or what's right with her. And so, you get these 00:15:31.800 --> 00:15:34.437 very vanilla characters who definitely 00:15:34.520 --> 00:15:38.757 could not go on Joe Rogan. And that, you know, is all to our advantage cuz we 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:43.917 basically deal almost entirely with founder CEOs. 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:47.677 >> I want to uh transition to one more structural mechanic cuz it's a segue 00:15:47.760 --> 00:15:51.877 into how we've built our team a little bit. And it's um this uh market system 00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:55.437 of McLuhan quote, you know, if it's on TV, it's a TV show. 00:15:55.520 --> 00:15:59.357 Um and just talk about how the different formats yield different different types 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:01.717 of content. Um Do you want to talk about it? 00:16:01.800 --> 00:16:04.037 >> Okay. You you want you you want me to do it? You want me to do it? 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:05.597 >> Yeah, yeah. >> Okay. All right. Okay. This is the 00:16:05.680 --> 00:16:09.317 thing. Okay. So, yeah, Marshall McLuhan was the great media theorist of the of 00:16:09.400 --> 00:16:11.637 the TV era. And actually, his his work is actually held up really well. And 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.797 it's it's it's it's worth reading. Um but uh he he had the he had this this 00:16:15.880 --> 00:16:19.117 thing that Eric just said. He said, "If if it's on TV, it's a television show." 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:22.877 Um In other words, like basically the the the you know, as he as he said, as 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:25.797 he said, "The medium is the message." Um basically, what he said is like, "Look, 00:16:25.880 --> 00:16:30.037 like TV TV is a specific kind of technology. It's a specific kind of 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:33.797 media technology." Um and basically, like all of the questions around TV are 00:16:33.880 --> 00:16:36.517 like, you know, is it a is you know, it's it's all basically just like the 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:39.357 only real parameter is length. Like, is it a 3-minute news segment? Is it a 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.957 20-minute sitcom? Is it a 40-minute drama? Like, there there there's very 00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:45.917 little kind of variation like what you can do cuz it's just a linear you know, 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:48.157 it's just a straight you know, just you know, broadcast video. You know, 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.397 broadcast video. And so, he said, you know, basically, the medium in its first 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:53.957 you know, 10 or 20 years evolved you know, basically, the concept of what we 00:16:54.040 --> 00:16:57.237 now know to be a television show, which is basically either a comedy or a drama 00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:00.917 or or combination of the both. And it's basically a little story. And it's a 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.637 little story that plays out over 20 to 40 minutes. And it kind of has to be a 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:06.237 self-contained story cuz you don't know when people are going to watch it. And 00:17:06.320 --> 00:17:08.237 you know, now they're doing you know, now they're doing you know, streaming. 00:17:08.320 --> 00:17:11.117 They're doing serial stories. But you know, television shows properly 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:13.437 generally were you know, where everything was a one-off. You can watch 00:17:13.520 --> 00:17:16.477 episodes out of order. And so, there's like there the there these very like 00:17:16.560 --> 00:17:20.037 self-contained little basically, you know, plays, little stage plays 00:17:20.120 --> 00:17:22.437 broadcast on video and then there there there are these self-contained little 00:17:22.520 --> 00:17:25.557 stories and then and then they need to kind of appeal to emotion cuz it's like 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:28.917 an emotional medium. Uh right, it's not like an information dense medium. It's 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:31.397 a, you know, it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a medium that literally put 00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:34.797 somebody in your living room. Um and so the basically it's it's like these 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:37.197 little morality plays, right? Where there's and there's got to be like good 00:17:37.280 --> 00:17:40.197 guys and bad guys and kind of a very simplistic story and there's like a few, 00:17:40.280 --> 00:17:43.237 you know, a few mild plot twists and then everything kind of wraps up at the end. 00:17:43.320 --> 00:17:45.877 And he And he said sort of the consequence to that is like everything 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:48.437 on television has to be a television show and that includes everything in the 00:17:48.520 --> 00:17:51.677 real world that gets talked about on television has to be turned into a 00:17:51.760 --> 00:17:54.677 television show. Right? And and and this is kind of, you know, the running joke 00:17:54.760 --> 00:17:57.117 of like following, you know, I don't know whatever current events or politics 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:00.237 on TV right now, which is you you kind of a running joke, which is you know, on 00:18:00.320 --> 00:18:03.277 on either party, which is just kind of like, "Oh, you know, that you know, you 00:18:03.360 --> 00:18:05.757 know, oh, it's you know, it's time for the next season. 00:18:05.840 --> 00:18:08.517 Oh, you know, this is the new, you know, main plot that's happening and then this 00:18:08.600 --> 00:18:11.037 is the new secondary plot that's happening." And if you watch CNN every 00:18:11.120 --> 00:18:12.997 night, you know, they're just kind of, you know, they're kind of just playing 00:18:13.080 --> 00:18:15.877 with these stories you know, kind of over time the way that a the way that a 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.117 soap opera might or that a, you know, that a that a that a that a that a drama 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:22.637 might or occasionally, you know, how comedy might. And so so basically we 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:24.957 we've just like lived in a world where it just seems like everything's a TV 00:18:25.040 --> 00:18:28.237 show. Um and it's and it's a world where like all the edges are sanded off and 00:18:28.320 --> 00:18:31.077 everything is kind of very smooth and professional and everything is kind of 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:33.957 within this very narrow band of what can be put into these kind of little little 00:18:34.040 --> 00:18:37.597 morality plays. Okay, so Marshall McLuhan unfortunately is long dead, but 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:41.037 I I assert that if he were alive today, he would say, "If it's if it's on the 00:18:41.120 --> 00:18:43.517 internet, it's a viral internet post." 00:18:43.600 --> 00:18:47.517 Right? So like what's the native medium of the internet? Like what's the thing 00:18:47.600 --> 00:18:52.037 that what's the form of media on the internet that like rips and dominates? 00:18:52.120 --> 00:18:54.117 And it's clearly the viral post, right? 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:57.557 It's it's the viral you know, tweet, it's the viral Tik Tok, it's the viral 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:01.037 Instagram, right? It's the it's the it's the viral Facebook post, it's the viral 00:19:01.120 --> 00:19:02.997 Substack, it's the viral YouTube video. 00:19:03.080 --> 00:19:05.997 Like it's very clearly the post and specifically it's the viral post. Like 00:19:06.080 --> 00:19:07.237 it's it it's the one that really rips. 00:19:07.320 --> 00:19:11.477 And so so basically, you're right, right. So my theory is, if it's on on internet, 00:19:11.560 --> 00:19:14.037 everything is a viral post. And then you just ask yourself two questions, which 00:19:14.120 --> 00:19:17.797 is like, okay, what's the characteristic of a viral post? And and like nine times 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:20.477 out of 10 it's something that like really gets people cranked up, right? 00:19:20.560 --> 00:19:24.117 Like on whatever topic, right? It might be on whatever your favorite pop star 00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:27.197 said yesterday or it might be on whatever, you know, a politician said or 00:19:27.280 --> 00:19:29.637 it might be on whatever, you know, a business leader said or whatever, but 00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:33.557 like it's something that like causes people to like flip out, right? You 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:35.957 know, you know, and maybe some people flip out positively, some people flip 00:19:36.040 --> 00:19:38.637 out negatively. Something caused people to flip out. And then the other thing 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:41.157 with viral posts that's really interesting is you can actually observe 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:44.917 this in the data. They have this really rapid rise. Like they tend to if if 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.837 they're going to take off, they tend to take off within like 12 hours. And then 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:51.077 they spike like crazy as everybody retweets or reposts and you know, emails 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:53.477 it around and talks about it. And then there's basically this like half-life 00:19:53.560 --> 00:19:55.637 fall off where like within 24 it's like 00:19:55.720 --> 00:20:00.837 12 hours up and then it's like 20 24 hours down. And then 36 hours later it's 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:02.637 like gone from our collective memory. 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:06.077 And the reason is because another one has popped up and has taken off instead. 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.517 And if you kind of take a step back and kind of chart the media landscape that 00:20:09.600 --> 00:20:12.557 we've all been living in for the last whatever, you know, for sure 5 years, 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:14.597 but you know, you could even say probably 10 years. 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:18.277 What what we've learned through is just literally just like thousands of cycles 00:20:18.360 --> 00:20:21.837 of viral posts. Um okay, is you know, is this good or 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:25.357 bad or something in the middle? You can have a big debate about that. Um you 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:27.997 know, I would argue it's it's its own form of emotionality, right? It's it's 00:20:28.080 --> 00:20:30.437 basically things that spike the cortisol and so that, you know, it's sort of 00:20:30.520 --> 00:20:33.357 things that are controversial. And so it leans into that. But you know, the other 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:35.837 side is it's things that are interesting, right? And then the other 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.877 part is, you know, the the people get a vote of what goes viral, right? It's not 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.757 just up to a news producer what what shows up on TV. So there there there's 00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:45.437 that aspect to it. Um another aspect to it, by the way, is that stories come and 00:20:45.520 --> 00:20:48.917 go much more quickly now, right? And so there will be some thing that pops and 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:53.037 it's like the world's biggest crisis in whatever sector it's talking about and 00:20:53.120 --> 00:20:55.997 it's just like everybody in the world has an opinion. This is where I I was 00:20:56.080 --> 00:20:58.837 using a while back the the the meme of the current thing. Like it's the current 00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:01.237 thing. Everybody has to have an opinion on the current thing. It's the most 00:21:01.320 --> 00:21:03.557 important thing in the world. And then 24 hours later it's like it never 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:08.237 happened because something else, right, has become the current thing. And then 00:21:08.320 --> 00:21:11.237 that leads to, you know, the new the new version of the old time on a strategy of 00:21:11.320 --> 00:21:14.317 getting through media crisis, which is like just like basically 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:17.197 make sure something else, you know, becomes the new viral post. 00:21:17.280 --> 00:21:19.477 You know, gets get something else elevated into that thing. So there you 00:21:19.560 --> 00:21:22.317 know, there's there's there's there's this way to kind of kind of deal with 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:25.397 these things. But But anyway, I just think like as long as the internet is 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:29.397 the medium of choice, we're going to live in a world in which this is what it 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:33.557 you know, this is the cycle now. It's like a 24-36 hour cycle. By the way, the 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:36.437 traditional media in the former newspapers and television, like at least 00:21:36.520 --> 00:21:39.517 the way I read them, is they're basically covering whatever was the 00:21:39.600 --> 00:21:41.957 viral post like yesterday or a week ago. 00:21:42.040 --> 00:21:45.557 Right? And so right and so they're being driven by the internet viral post, which 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:47.557 is which is you know, which is why I think that you know, that the internet 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:49.277 viral post is is the higher order thing. 00:21:49.360 --> 00:21:52.357 And and I also think like that that's not going to change. Like they 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:54.797 the whole long thing I could do on that, but like they literally if you're a 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.557 television if you're a television producer or if you're a news editor or 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:00.717 whatever, like you you can't possibly move your organization fast enough to 00:22:00.800 --> 00:22:03.517 stay ahead of these cycles. And so what you end up doing is you end up chasing 00:22:03.600 --> 00:22:06.197 them. And and that's basically the role of mainstream media for the rest of our 00:22:06.280 --> 00:22:09.117 life is just going to be to follow the internet viral post. 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.757 >> Yeah, I never saw a funny joke on the Daily Show years ago where they were 00:22:12.840 --> 00:22:15.237 talking to the newspaper guy and he said, "Why do you call it news? You 00:22:15.320 --> 00:22:19.797 should call it olds." >> That's good. 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:23.157 Um >> He It was he was interviewing at the time the managing editor of the New York 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:26.077 Times. And he was in his office. And the New York Times, you know, was expecting 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:29.077 to get this glowing coverage on the Daily Show. And whoever it was shows up 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:31.797 in the office and says says what Benja said. And the guy and the editor is just 00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:34.917 like completely confused. Like he clearly has no idea what the Daily Show 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:38.077 guy is talking about. And and he's like, "Well, like what do you mean?" And he's 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:40.397 like he points to there's like a pile of literally physical newspapers on the 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:43.757 guy's desk. And he says like, "Look, it's it's all old news." And he says 00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:46.117 like, "No, no, it's today's paper." And he's like, "No, no, it's yesterday's 00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:50.877 paper. Like I already know everything that's in that." Like you know, and so 00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:54.517 yeah, and and like it's just basically like again, what do they have they're 00:22:54.600 --> 00:22:56.997 very proud of this. They have their editorial process, they have their 00:22:57.080 --> 00:23:00.477 publication process. Like they they multi-layer you know, bureaucratic 00:23:00.560 --> 00:23:02.997 mechanism for you know, all all the news that's fit to print. Like, you know, 00:23:03.080 --> 00:23:06.397 it's at least a 24-hour cycle to figure that out. And I mean, and you know, 24 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.517 hours later the internet has already moved on from whatever the last thing 00:23:08.600 --> 00:23:11.477 was. And so, it's just it's it's a it's a it's another example of the dog 00:23:11.560 --> 00:23:15.717 chasing the car, except now they have to chase it like every single day, which 00:23:15.800 --> 00:23:17.637 might be why they're so upset all the time. 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:20.917 >> Yeah, they are pissed. >> You know, we really made sure to hire 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:24.157 people who really understand the platform, not just how the platform 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:28.397 works technically, but also the the vibe and the taste and the and the spirit of 00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:33.037 of of the platform. And and we've gone all in to start um on on X because that 00:23:33.120 --> 00:23:35.157 those are just where the most interesting conversations are happening 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:38.477 and where where people are the most plugged in. 00:23:38.560 --> 00:23:41.477 >> And and and the way I think of it first >> Almost of tech world is on X, you know, 00:23:41.560 --> 00:23:43.157 like it or not. Like our world lives on 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:48.600 X um just because that's also where all the 00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:52.437 both the kind of AI researchers and the 00:23:52.520 --> 00:23:55.437 AI influencers and the crypto influence 00:23:55.520 --> 00:23:59.597 and like like everybody in our world lives there uh 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:04.077 you know, at least in part. So, we can't avoid it even if we didn't like 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:09.277 it. But we love it. >> Were you about to say something, Mark? 00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:11.597 >> Oh, yeah. No, I was just going to say yeah, I know like what Ben said is yeah, 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:14.997 so like this is a I posted a link to a book called The True Believer that kind 00:24:15.080 --> 00:24:17.837 of talk talks about this is, you know, the the old characterization is elites 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:20.997 and masses, which is a little bit 20th century, but yeah, like the the like 00:24:21.080 --> 00:24:24.077 people who are spending 24 hours a day trying to understand, you know, 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:26.757 basically in these domains like AI or you know, politics or whatever, like 00:24:26.840 --> 00:24:29.717 they they're on X. Like that and that and that's the that that that's not the 00:24:29.800 --> 00:24:32.197 mass market. Like that's not most of humanity, but like that's most of the 00:24:32.280 --> 00:24:35.037 people who are like basically in the what you might I don't know what you 00:24:35.120 --> 00:24:37.517 want to call like knowledge synthesis business or whatever where they're 00:24:37.600 --> 00:24:41.037 trying to like understand and formulate policies on things and and so forth. Um 00:24:41.120 --> 00:24:44.237 obvious obviously it's also true that TikTok and Instagram, you know, have 00:24:44.320 --> 00:24:46.797 just like much more reach. Like they're you know, they're just much bigger um 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:49.117 you know, they they reach the mass kind of global audience 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.637 um more. And so, they you know, they certainly they certainly play a role. 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:54.557 But if if you're on the leading edge of a field like I, you know, it's it's very 00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:58.237 rare that the whatever is kind of the lead, you know, kind of the edge of that 00:24:58.320 --> 00:25:01.197 process of kind of idea formation, propagation, people, you know, in 00:25:01.280 --> 00:25:03.597 positions of of authority kind of figuring out what they think. It's 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:05.317 That's almost all entirely on us. 00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.197 >> By the way, this is another huge 00:25:08.280 --> 00:25:12.877 difference between old media and new media. So, if you come from old media 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:16.877 world, there's just reach. >> Yeah. 00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:19.357 >> Right. Like the targets, 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:24.237 you know, if you were going for a target audience, um there was no real easy way 00:25:24.320 --> 00:25:27.397 to do it on I mean, you know, like maybe like if you were 00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:31.037 sports, you'd be in Sports Illustrated whatever, but like there wasn't really a 00:25:31.120 --> 00:25:33.917 way to do it. Um but now 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.517 with podcasts and and blogs and X and so 00:25:37.600 --> 00:25:39.797 forth, you can go to an exact audience. 00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:42.157 You can really get down to an extremely 00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:45.117 narrow target in new media world. And, 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:49.437 you know, for us that's great cuz the audience our audience is founders, 00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:51.797 um not the world, uh 00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:54.677 and so, you know, having a way to talk 00:25:54.760 --> 00:25:58.397 to 90% of founders as opposed to 4% of 00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:02.117 the world is just a much better thing for us. 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:05.117 >> Yeah. The the two two more structural things 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:08.357 that Mark I want you to explain and then I want to you present some some some 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:11.117 slides, you know, give some detail about what we're doing 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:15.197 that that that relate to what I'm about to say. One is I want you to explain the 00:26:15.280 --> 00:26:18.677 the Boyd um loop and and why, you know, that that 00:26:18.760 --> 00:26:22.557 makes Twitter and and social media so much more powerful in terms of, you 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:26.717 know, forming consensus. Um and then the other is the difference between written 00:26:26.800 --> 00:26:30.357 and oral culture and and and what's prioritized um in you know, as we 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.197 transition to oral. >> Yeah. Okay, so these are both long 00:26:33.280 --> 00:26:37.397 topics and so I'll try to do the the CliffNotes version. Um yeah, so um 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:40.877 I'll I'll I'll link to the book on this, but in in in in military theory there 00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:43.157 there's this concept called maneuver warfare, which basically just says like 00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:47.357 speed speed wins. Like speed speed wins as compared to map map mass winning. Uh 00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:49.917 speed wins. And so, if if you if you believe that, then there's basically 00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:54.517 this frame there's this framework called called the OODA loop, uh OODA loop, uh 00:26:54.600 --> 00:26:57.597 which originally was developed for uh fighter pilots and then later for for 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:01.477 broader military strategy. Um and the OODA loop what what OODA 00:27:01.560 --> 00:27:06.677 stands for is an acronym um it stands for observe, orient, decide, act. Um and 00:27:06.760 --> 00:27:10.117 so it's basically the decision-making cycle, right? And so and observe is like 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:13.237 view the outside world, orient is like figure out where you are in respect to 00:27:13.320 --> 00:27:17.877 the outside world. Um decide, of course, decide what to do, act uh 00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:21.077 act and and basically what this guy Boyd who came up with this idea said was like 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:25.477 any military opera- any fighter pilot, any military operation, any, you know, 00:27:25.560 --> 00:27:27.597 basketball player, any um you know, 00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:31.637 company, any government um um basically 00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:35.437 goes through a a decision-making cycle that's like that in order to make 00:27:35.520 --> 00:27:38.077 decisions. We just talked about the New York Times has their own OODA loop. It's 00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:43.317 like 24 hours to go through their process. Um uh right? And so um and so 00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:47.317 um basically what he said is like if if speed is the thing that matters, then 00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:49.517 the person who gets through that cycle the fastest is the one who's going to 00:27:49.600 --> 00:27:52.317 win. But he said, "There's a second-order thing that happens." So one 00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.477 is just like is your OODA loop faster than the than the other guys? So so 00:27:55.560 --> 00:27:58.877 that's one question. But he said the other thing that can happen is if if you 00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:02.637 if you can have a sustainably faster OODA loop processing cycle than the next 00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:06.557 guy, um then if you think about what happens like let's say it takes, you 00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:09.357 know, you whatever, you know, an hour to figure something out, it takes the other 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:12.677 guy 2 hours to figure something out. Uh think about what happens is like okay, 00:28:12.760 --> 00:28:15.317 you start out on even playing field. Um 00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:19.877 you both start your your your your decision-making cycles. Um you operate 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.797 you you make your decision within an hour. The other guy is still let's say 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:25.677 is inside his own OODA loop when you make your decision, right? And so you 00:28:25.760 --> 00:28:28.837 make your decision, you act within an hour. He's only halfway through his 00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:32.477 process. He now has to start his process over, right? Cuz cuz you've changed the 00:28:32.560 --> 00:28:35.197 landscape, you've changed the parameters of what's going on. So he now has to go 00:28:35.280 --> 00:28:38.637 back and re-observe and reorient and start over, right? And then and then of 00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:41.677 course project forward. It's like okay, then you decide again within an hour and 00:28:41.760 --> 00:28:44.477 then by the time he gets And again, he gets halfway through his process, he 00:28:44.560 --> 00:28:46.157 gets interrupted. Um he has to go back. 00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.997 And so what he says is if you if you can be sustainably faster at running your 00:28:49.080 --> 00:28:52.597 decision loop, you can get inside the other guy's loop in a in a systematic 00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:56.397 and perpetual way and and basically the result of that is psychological breakdown. 00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.317 Uh basically you you destroy the psychology of the side because they just 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.077 simply they they just can no longer operate or function at all. They just 00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:03.317 like basically go into complete panic. 00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:06.037 Nothing seems to make sense. They can never get oriented. They can never make 00:29:06.120 --> 00:29:09.277 decisions. They can never They become completely defensive, completely 00:29:09.360 --> 00:29:12.997 responsive. You completely dominate, you know, basically the playing field. Um 00:29:13.080 --> 00:29:16.717 and he you know, he was he was a famous fighter pilot. He was a 00:29:16.800 --> 00:29:20.397 famous fighter pilot called 15-second Boyd because he his claim was which was 00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:23.837 true is he could beat any other fighter pilot in a dogfight within 15 seconds 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.277 using this method. And so it's basically this this this premium on speed and 00:29:27.360 --> 00:29:31.157 quality of execution such that you are actually causing the other side to have a 00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:34.517 have a psychological break. Um by the way, like again, going back to 00:29:34.600 --> 00:29:37.037 the like I think this is also a big explanation for what's happened to 00:29:37.120 --> 00:29:41.037 traditional media. The The fact that the internet moves events so much faster and 00:29:41.120 --> 00:29:44.157 the sort of internet collective crowd decides what's important so much faster 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:46.877 causes all the people who were television producers or news editors who 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:48.997 thought that they were in charge of the narrative to just basically have a 00:29:49.080 --> 00:29:51.757 psychological breakdown. Like how how how can you even function when the 00:29:51.840 --> 00:29:55.157 internet is just basically cycling much faster than you could. And I think this 00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:57.397 by the way, the same is true of companies. You know, this is what Elon 00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:59.757 does, you know, to his competitors like in the defense, you know, in the 00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:02.397 aerospace industry. This is what Anduril's now doing in companies in the 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:05.357 defense industry. You know, this quite frankly is what we 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:08.277 try to do, you know, to our competitors in the venture industry. 00:30:08.360 --> 00:30:11.237 Um so yeah, so that now to do that you have to be willing to commit to being 00:30:11.320 --> 00:30:15.997 fast, right? Um and so you you can't you can't have long bureaucratic processes. 00:30:16.080 --> 00:30:19.317 You can't have, you know, a you know, a risk-averse posture. You can't, you 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:23.197 know, stress, you know, you you need enough time to make the decision properly. 00:30:23.280 --> 00:30:26.317 Um you know, but you you can't you can't run the fully deliberate, um you know, 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:28.877 strategy that a lot of companies used to have in the past where it was days to 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:31.077 weeks to months to figure out, you know, what they were going to say about 00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:34.597 something. Um by the way, in in politics they adapted to this probably 30 years 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:37.237 ago uh with the concept of the war room. 00:30:37.320 --> 00:30:41.077 Um and there's a famous documentary in the Clinton campaign in I think in '88 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:44.117 uh or the called the war room where they they show this and now now they call it 00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:47.237 rapid response and if you if you if you go to basically any any political 00:30:47.320 --> 00:30:50.357 operation on the internet right now, um, you know, they'll have an X account 00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:52.917 that's literally they call it like rapid response. So it's like the actually 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.517 Department of War has one just as example. Department of War rapid 00:30:55.600 --> 00:30:58.157 response and it's literally like they're responding in real time to stuff that's 00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:02.677 happening cuz they want to stay inside, um, you know, everybody else's Udal Loop. 00:31:02.760 --> 00:31:05.837 Um, yeah, okay. So there's that and then yeah, the the the oral versus written 00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:08.717 thing is it's it it would probably take an hour to kind of go through the whole 00:31:08.800 --> 00:31:11.957 thing, but yeah, the the longest short of it is there's basically 00:31:12.040 --> 00:31:14.637 in sort of human culture there's kind of two ways to communicate. There's two 00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:16.637 fundamental modes. There's oral communication, there's written 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:19.917 communication. You know, oral communication, you know, is the original 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:22.437 form and you can think about it literally as like people around a 00:31:22.520 --> 00:31:26.157 campfire telling stories, singing songs, you know, reciting poetry. 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:29.317 Um, you can think about written communication would be, you know, kind 00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:33.357 of famously the book, um, or the scientific journal article, right, or 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:37.677 the math equation, um, or the business plan, right? Um, you know, 00:31:37.760 --> 00:31:41.597 you know, a a written artifact. Um, and then basically the characteristic of a a 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:45.797 reality or oral communication is it's it's sort of inherently emotion first, 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:48.637 um, right? Cuz it's it's, you know, literally, you know, live interactions 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.357 with another person. Um, the characteristic of written 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:54.797 communication is sort of abstraction, you know, and you know, hopefully logic, 00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:58.597 the scientific method, you know, intellectual rigor, analytical rigor. 00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:01.717 Um, it it it used to be the case that you could 00:32:01.800 --> 00:32:04.637 kind of really divide these, you know, like in traditional mass media it used 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:07.037 to be the case you could say that like newspapers and magazines were written 00:32:07.120 --> 00:32:10.237 and so they would be like more calmer and more dispassionate. You could say, 00:32:10.320 --> 00:32:13.637 you know, television was oral, right? It was people literally people talking and 00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:16.477 so it was going to be much more emotional and hot-headed. You know, 00:32:16.560 --> 00:32:20.037 basically like, you know, that that that's all broken down cuz of everything 00:32:20.120 --> 00:32:22.997 we've talked about. Um, but the modern version of that is like the internet. 00:32:23.080 --> 00:32:25.997 Like, okay, is the internet an oral culture or written culture? And it turns 00:32:26.080 --> 00:32:28.517 out the answer is the internet's both cuz the internet is everything, right? 00:32:28.600 --> 00:32:30.677 It it supports every kind of media. 00:32:30.760 --> 00:32:35.117 Um, and so a YouTube video, I will say for sure a short form Tik Tok or 00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:37.077 Instagram reel for sure is oral culture. 00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:40.117 Like it's it's something short and bursty and emotional and and and 00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:44.197 interpersonal and it's experience. Um a long-form Substack post is for sure 00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:47.157 written culture. Uh but then things get more complicated 00:32:47.240 --> 00:32:50.957 because a short tweet, even though it's written, is actually an oral culture 00:32:51.040 --> 00:32:54.437 thing, right? Because the fact that it's short means it has to be like this again 00:32:54.520 --> 00:32:58.557 this sort of this burst of of of of of sort of say triggering emotionality uh 00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:01.517 in order to go viral. So so actually tweets, I would say are oral culture 00:33:01.600 --> 00:33:04.917 even though they look written. And then long-form podcasts are actually written 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:07.557 culture even though they look oral, right? Cuz if you're going to talk about 00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:10.757 something for 3 hours, like that's necessarily something where you're kind 00:33:10.840 --> 00:33:13.677 of getting into abstractions in depth, you know, beyond just kind of a flash 00:33:13.760 --> 00:33:17.197 moment of emotion. Um and so the internet lets you kind of play with 00:33:17.280 --> 00:33:21.277 these formats and and and the kind of impact that you want to have um in a way 00:33:21.360 --> 00:33:24.117 that, you know, in in the past was kind of determined by exactly fixed which 00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:27.677 fixed media you were in. Uh and and and look, we we all live this. Like if you 00:33:27.760 --> 00:33:30.077 want to have the internet experience of like doomscrolling and getting really 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:33.117 pissed off at the world, like you go on TikTok and X and you can do that. If you 00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:36.157 want to have like learn a lot of stuff, you can go on Substack and long-form 00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:38.717 YouTube podcasts and you can live in that world and like you can like, you 00:33:38.800 --> 00:33:41.237 know, raise your IQ a point a day like it you know, it's absolutely amazing. 00:33:41.320 --> 00:33:45.237 And so there is a choose your own adventure aspect to it. Um and um and 00:33:45.320 --> 00:33:48.197 then of course, you know, we you know, firms like ours you know, need to think 00:33:48.280 --> 00:33:51.917 hard about how we communicate because of of the differences. 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:56.877 >> I I love that as a segue cuz it just emphasizes how different every platform 00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:01.037 is and it's not, you know, a lot of people or companies will just, you know, 00:34:01.120 --> 00:34:04.477 have one idea and then cross-post it, you know, across every platform, but it 00:34:04.560 --> 00:34:08.117 doesn't fully appreciate um you know, what that platform is built for and what 00:34:08.200 --> 00:34:12.037 that platform rewards. And so for every platform that we have, we have a, you 00:34:12.120 --> 00:34:14.677 know, with Substack, podcast, Instagram, 00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:15.957 you know, uh 00:34:16.040 --> 00:34:19.637 X, YouTube, etc., we have expert running 00:34:19.720 --> 00:34:22.157 it who is obsessed with with that with 00:34:22.240 --> 00:34:24.477 that medium. Uh you know, on Instagram 00:34:24.560 --> 00:34:26.877 we're up 35% you know, month over month 00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:29.437 right now. We have this guy Hero who's 00:34:29.520 --> 00:34:31.677 uh who's 18 years old and has been, you 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:36.637 know, grew up on on Instagram and and knows it like the the back of his hand 00:34:36.720 --> 00:34:40.077 um and and and that really matters. That makes a difference. And and so with with 00:34:40.160 --> 00:34:44.997 that as a segue, I want to do a share just a few slides that just show 00:34:45.080 --> 00:34:47.757 um a little bit about what we've what we've 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:52.117 done so far. Second. So, 00:34:52.200 --> 00:34:54.237 what we're you know, really trying to do 00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:56.717 is is is king make our companies, right? 00:34:56.800 --> 00:35:01.797 Is is is give them such a a superpower in terms of getting their message out, 00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:06.077 in terms of reaching their customers, in terms of reaching their their talent. 00:35:06.160 --> 00:35:10.757 You know, the superpower that companies like Anduril have to punch way above their 00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:14.077 their weight class and and and other brands you know, wish that they they had 00:35:14.160 --> 00:35:18.237 that level of of of resonance, that level of reach. We're we're we're you 00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.357 know, trying to give them those superpowers and we do that by by 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:23.917 building our own channels, our own you 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:28.637 know, media empire across platforms. We do that by making 00:35:28.720 --> 00:35:32.277 sure that we know everybody else who's got those 00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:34.637 My screen paused for some reason. Okay, screen share. 00:35:34.720 --> 00:35:38.557 But everybody else who's got those powers of distribution and and having 00:35:38.640 --> 00:35:40.477 great relationships with them. 00:35:40.560 --> 00:35:43.717 Um And then also by just you know, making 00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:47.597 sure that we have the expertise to be able to deploy 00:35:47.680 --> 00:35:51.637 to our companies as well. You know, Lulu put this put this well, you know, that 00:35:51.720 --> 00:35:53.637 people don't really invest enough in in 00:35:53.720 --> 00:35:58.757 in people running these these platforms and you know, we've really 00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:03.037 spent a lot of time recruiting the the right expert talent to to do it. So, I'm 00:36:03.120 --> 00:36:06.757 I'm I'm stoked because now that we've had them build our platforms, we're 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:09.997 going to deploy them to to work on behalf of our companies. 00:36:10.080 --> 00:36:14.117 And so, we're we're you know, Kaster from Applied Intuition, you know, 00:36:14.200 --> 00:36:17.397 he's he's always been I was an angel in Kaster's world so known for a while and 00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:20.517 he's always been complaining of like, "Hey, you know, why are we not valued 00:36:20.600 --> 00:36:24.197 more? Or why do we not have more resonance? Why do people you know, why 00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:27.637 why is everyone when about other companies not not our company given how 00:36:27.720 --> 00:36:31.077 good we are. And I've I'm Is it Kasser, you know, you've never tweeted in your 00:36:31.160 --> 00:36:34.477 life. How do you expect to have tremendous tremendous mind share? And he 00:36:34.560 --> 00:36:38.077 he finally, you know, thanks to a lot of pushing that that we did, bit the 00:36:38.160 --> 00:36:41.277 bullet. And his first tweet got like 4,000 likes. And you know, the first 00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:44.917 product we have, I'll get to it in a second, was this launch as a service. Um 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:48.157 the second one is going to be this this founder go-direct motion. You know, 00:36:48.240 --> 00:36:51.077 we're working with Kasser, we're working with Garrett from Flock Safety. You 00:36:51.160 --> 00:36:54.317 know, that that's a heroic company that should be at the stature of a Anduril as 00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:58.237 well. And and I really helped them build that machine. 00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:02.317 So, speaking of the launch as a service offering, this was, you know, inspired 00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:06.517 early on I was asking, you know, some of the GPs, "Hey, what would Where could we 00:37:06.600 --> 00:37:09.517 make the biggest difference? Like, what what new product should should we have?" 00:37:09.600 --> 00:37:13.437 And you know, Cyrus said, "If we could get guarantee a viral announcement, you 00:37:13.520 --> 00:37:17.277 know, I I I I think that'd be a super power for us." So, so we built out this 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:21.357 this launch as a service. Um you know, everything soup to nuts from from, you 00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:26.037 know, all the all the social media copy, the messaging, the um you know, the the 00:37:26.120 --> 00:37:28.037 the rollout. We we created these custom 00:37:28.120 --> 00:37:30.397 videos. You know, we we hired Richard, 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:35.437 another 18-year-old who uh you know, we convinced him to go straight from 00:37:35.520 --> 00:37:39.557 high school to the MBA, i.e., not go to college, or at least not right now. And 00:37:39.640 --> 00:37:42.677 um he uh he had previously done the Cruelty video. 00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:44.837 Uh and um and uh the browser-based 00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:49.717 video. And he's just got this, you know, phenomenal um taste for for what really 00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:53.277 does well. And so, we we built this video team, Richard, Ben, you know, 00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:57.157 Henry, you know, has really led this led this product. And and you could see the 00:37:57.240 --> 00:38:01.157 the views here. It's it's it's just done phenomenally well. Um you know, millions 00:38:01.240 --> 00:38:04.277 and millions of views for for our companies. We've now scaled up this 00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:07.277 offering to be to to offer it to to all 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:11.917 of our companies. And um that that's our first product. After 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:14.397 working with companies, companies were saying, "Hey, 00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:16.557 you know, how do I hire people like that?" And and thus the new media 00:38:16.640 --> 00:38:20.517 fellowship was born to to help us hire them, but also help help our companies 00:38:20.600 --> 00:38:24.277 hire them. And so, uh because, you know, there's this sweet 00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:26.877 spot where you need to be online enough 00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:29.757 to really know the the the have taste 00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:34.877 and and have sensibility and understand these new platforms, but um 00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:39.037 you need also need to be functioning enough and professional enough to work 00:38:39.120 --> 00:38:40.397 at one of these companies. And and 00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:42.797 there's not many people can can can do 00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:46.237 both. And so, we've really um you know, 00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:50.197 tried to create this this uh this program to be able to identify these 00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:52.237 people and then just give them a little 00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:54.957 bit more sort of technical know-how. And 00:38:55.040 --> 00:38:58.157 so, our first fellowship uh we you know, 00:38:58.240 --> 00:39:01.277 2,000 applications, we picked 65 people. 00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:03.677 We think we think they're incredible. Um 00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:05.997 we two hires from us came came from that 00:39:06.080 --> 00:39:11.677 so so far. Um and we think this is going to be a franchise um to come. And and and 00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:15.717 the other part of it I'll just leave is um you know, I think we were really 00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:20.077 popularizing this term new media. Seeing a number of people with, you know, new 00:39:20.160 --> 00:39:23.877 media JDs. They they want a head of new media. They they're they're they're 00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:27.357 looking for that. And I think we're uh sort of in in the way that we 00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:31.357 popularized American Dynamism and other people have American Dynamism practices, 00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:34.837 um we're starting to see that with with with Newbie. And so, it's cool to to see 00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:37.357 our thought leadership there. 00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:42.677 Um and uh you know, more to uh more more to come. So so yeah, those are 00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:46.437 the things I'll I'll leave you with in our our our presentation. The um 00:39:46.520 --> 00:39:50.277 you know, our our channels are are up um tremendously and we're going to continue 00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:54.477 to to invest in them. We um we've got this portfolio offering launch as a 00:39:54.560 --> 00:39:58.757 service. We're we're, you know, now launching our go direct motion and 00:39:58.840 --> 00:40:01.917 really helping our our CEOs and and companies do that. It has to come from 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:07.277 the CEO. So, every engagement we do, the CEO is is tremendously engaged. Um and 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:10.517 then we're really building out this this new media category creation, this new 00:40:10.600 --> 00:40:14.957 media talent base for for us cuz we're continuing to hire, um but then also our 00:40:15.040 --> 00:40:18.157 our our our our our >> Yeah, so Ben, any closing thoughts? 00:40:18.240 --> 00:40:21.437 >> I'm I would just say that I 00:40:21.520 --> 00:40:23.157 you know, particularly if you've spent 00:40:23.240 --> 00:40:28.597 time in uh the prior media regime, um 00:40:28.680 --> 00:40:30.957 you know, of old media. 00:40:31.040 --> 00:40:34.077 You know, you really have to rethink 00:40:34.160 --> 00:40:37.037 every instinct that you have cuz 00:40:37.120 --> 00:40:41.597 it's it's one of the weirdest things where all your instincts 00:40:41.680 --> 00:40:45.037 are wrong. I mean, we're actually experiencing a little bit of this in AI, 00:40:45.120 --> 00:40:48.797 too, which you know, Martin wrote a great post on, which is like in the old 00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:52.917 world of software, the one thing you knew is you couldn't throw money at a 00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:56.957 problem. And now you can throw money at a problem. And so like 00:40:57.040 --> 00:40:59.157 you don't even realize how much of your 00:40:59.240 --> 00:41:03.677 thinking is affected by that old rule. 00:41:03.760 --> 00:41:06.757 Um and you know, 00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:09.357 I would say this is that in spades where 00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:14.557 like every single instinct you have is incorrect if you're in this world, and 00:41:14.640 --> 00:41:19.197 you just have to let it all go. And this is why you know, this is people lament, 00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.717 "Oh, like the right wing built this big podcast 00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:25.717 network and blah blah." That's not what happened. What happened is 00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:29.397 Trump just understood new media. For whatever I don't know why he did cuz 00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:31.197 he's so old and he's been in old media 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:34.037 the whole time. But like he just rolled 00:41:34.120 --> 00:41:36.517 right into it and you know, not at a 00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:39.397 technological level, but as a media. 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:42.957 Uh as a medium. And I think that 00:41:43.040 --> 00:41:47.317 you know, we've got to do that. We have to understand uh and and we have to kind 00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:50.477 of play by the new rules. >> Uh all my favorite comedians, 00:41:50.560 --> 00:41:54.837 podcasters, etc. always tell their guests, "Don't read the comments." 00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:58.637 Uh what do you guys think? Do the manic Reddit posters drive you nuts? I have 00:41:58.720 --> 00:42:02.077 not dived into our podcast comment section, but I have seen A16Z rage on 00:42:02.160 --> 00:42:05.797 Reddit. Not surprising. Uh for what it's worth, every tiny 00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:09.077 little conference I've been at while at A16Z has always had an A16Z fanboy 00:42:09.160 --> 00:42:12.677 raving about our podcast. Um yeah, so Eric, read the contents or read the 00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:14.797 comments, don't read the comments. 00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:19.797 >> Uh, don't read the comments if they're going to affect what you say. 00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:23.317 Um, it's it's kind of like the Yelp problem, you know, people who care 00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:26.717 enough to post either either absolutely love it or absolutely hate it, and we 00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:30.877 we've definitely got at this point I I I it doesn't affect me, so I I read the 00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:35.197 comments. But, uh, you know, I um I well, you 00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:39.037 know, and Mark and Ben have helped me not not get too concerned about some of 00:42:39.120 --> 00:42:43.557 the some of the commentary on Twitter by, you know, certain anonymous, 00:42:43.640 --> 00:42:47.357 uh, Twitter posters who who, you know, raging in their basements, et cetera. 00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:51.117 But, yeah, in short, don't read the comments. 00:42:51.200 --> 00:42:55.717 >> Yeah, so I'll just I'll I'll just maybe close on on on on two things. So, one is 00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:59.957 um Uh, there's a long history of this, and so, if you read any sort of 00:43:00.040 --> 00:43:04.037 biography or autobiography of any sort of professional author, you know, um Uh, 00:43:04.120 --> 00:43:07.477 you know, who writes writes books for a living, like 100% of the time at some 00:43:07.560 --> 00:43:10.357 point they will tell you, "Oh, the one thing I never do is read read read the 00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:13.917 read the critics, right? I never read the reviews." Um, and then and then 00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:18.880 they'll say, "Well, actually, no, that's not true. I always read the reviews." 00:43:19.160 --> 00:43:22.597 Cuz I know I shouldn't, right? Like, I know I shouldn't. I know I shouldn't 00:43:22.680 --> 00:43:24.597 because like critics, like by definition, are like, you know, 00:43:24.680 --> 00:43:27.437 basically bitter, you know, bitter people, um, 00:43:27.520 --> 00:43:30.157 you know, who aren't who aren't writing novels or whatever. And so, of course 00:43:30.240 --> 00:43:33.277 they're going to be mad. Um, and and I know I shouldn't read. I know 00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:36.397 it's very bad for me. I know it's going to really screw me up. Um, 00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:39.357 and then I I try, and then it's like a magnetic pull. I I always end up reading 00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:41.477 them, you know, cuz it's like 3:00 in the morning, and I can't resist, and 00:43:41.560 --> 00:43:43.157 then I always end up getting mad. 00:43:43.240 --> 00:43:45.837 Um, and so there there, you know, there is this push. And and it used to be, 00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:48.357 right, only professional authors or professional filmmakers or whatever had 00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:51.877 critics. Right? Reviews. And now, basically, right, the entire the entire 00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:54.997 world is a critic. And so, I I think we all we all we all we all kind of have 00:43:55.080 --> 00:43:58.877 that. It's it's a little bit of a it's a little bit of a push and a pull. Um, and 00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:03.357 so, um, that is a that is a little bit a little bit difficult. Um You know, I 00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:07.677 will say I I think maybe a thing to kind of bear in mind, Um, I couldn't resist. 00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:11.237 I posted a link to it another book on this topic with it has a great title 00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:15.277 called Kill All Normies. Um, and it's this this book actually 00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:18.477 from like a decade ago that talked about like this kind of very angry internet 00:44:18.560 --> 00:44:23.517 culture, you know, the kind of developed after the 2000s. Um, and um, because by 00:44:23.600 --> 00:44:26.317 the way, the internet was not always like this. Like in the in the very very 00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:29.157 early days the internet was so hard to get on to that the only people who were 00:44:29.240 --> 00:44:32.317 on the internet were like basically super basically like smart super 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:35.237 successful people. >> Yeah, newsgroups were really good then. 00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:38.917 >> Yeah, yeah, like the pre-1993 newsgroups were like utopian. 00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:42.797 Um, and then and then and then sort of post-1993 things started going sideways 00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:45.757 and then things start that the modern kind of caustic internet culture really 00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:48.237 developed in the in the 2000s and 2010s. 00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:52.157 Um, but but basically like it it actually turns out there's like a 00:44:52.240 --> 00:44:55.757 a genealogy to it and it actually turns out like a lot of it is literally 00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:59.477 literally it's it's like Call of Duty lobbies um, 00:44:59.560 --> 00:45:02.717 for online gaming. So it's like literally like online gaming lobbies 00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:05.677 cuz like when the Xbox and the PlayStation, you know, kind of 00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:08.557 rolled out voice you know, voice interaction for the first time, you 00:45:08.640 --> 00:45:10.557 know, they're like it'd be great for players to be able to talk to each other 00:45:10.640 --> 00:45:13.157 and it turns out you just get like, you know, 12-year-old boys in these lobbies 00:45:13.240 --> 00:45:17.037 just like torching the you know, out of everybody and and and literally 00:45:17.120 --> 00:45:20.157 trying to get under their opponent's skin and then being willing to, you 00:45:20.240 --> 00:45:23.797 know, anonymously say absolutely anything to do it. Um, right? And so 00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:27.237 that led to, you know, you know, very very coarse, very vulgar, very 00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:30.437 offensive, you know, kind of thing and then that you know, kind of flipped, you 00:45:30.520 --> 00:45:33.037 know, that kind of culture kind of expanded into early internet forums like 00:45:33.120 --> 00:45:36.517 Something Awful. And then it started metastasizing into things like you know, 00:45:36.600 --> 00:45:39.757 like YouTube comments um, and then you know, and then 00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:44.477 obviously social media kind of blew that open. And so um, there is this 00:45:44.560 --> 00:45:48.117 you know, there is this kind of you know, I don't know like 00:45:48.200 --> 00:45:50.117 rage undercurrent to everything. 00:45:50.200 --> 00:45:52.757 Um, and I guess it just say you know, it just got you you do kind of literally 00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:54.957 have to think about it. These are people literally in their in their in their 00:45:55.040 --> 00:45:58.317 parents' basement. >> And by the way, the you know, the other thing is 00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:02.557 generally when we get attacked on the comments are or like that, it's somebody 00:46:02.640 --> 00:46:07.037 with like four followers or like a bot or something like that. So, it's a 00:46:07.120 --> 00:46:10.757 >> And by the way, that that includes when it's hey Montra Venod. 00:46:10.840 --> 00:46:13.157 >> Yeah. And that includes when it's hey Montra Venod. 00:46:13.240 --> 00:46:16.800 >> Yeah. Yes. Yes.