WEBVTT 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.707 - Palmer Luckey, good to see you again, and welcome to the "Axios Show." 00:00:02.790 --> 00:00:04.257 - Thank you for having us on. - Thank you for having us on. 00:00:04.340 --> 00:00:07.677 - You are the founder and figurehead of Anduril Industries, 00:00:07.760 --> 00:00:12.217 among the splashiest, fastest growing, most pro-autonomy 00:00:12.300 --> 00:00:15.687 and polarizing defense contractors on the planet, I would hazard? 00:00:15.770 --> 00:00:19.147 - Wow, seven descriptors. - Yes, I'm big on adjectives. 00:00:19.230 --> 00:00:22.227 You have your haters and you have your hot takes, 00:00:22.310 --> 00:00:24.857 so I would like to lean into both if you're game. 00:00:24.940 --> 00:00:28.317 - I am always game to lean into the things that make me polarizing. 00:00:28.400 --> 00:00:33.617 - Fantastic. Describe for me Anduril in one sentence, one quick sentence. 00:00:33.700 --> 00:00:37.037 Anduril is a defense product company that spends its own money 00:00:37.120 --> 00:00:40.247 designing, developing, and shipping tools that will save taxpayers 00:00:40.330 --> 00:00:42.337 hundreds of billions of dollars a year 00:00:42.420 --> 00:00:45.797 as we make tens of billions of dollars a year, someday. 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:47.927 - Someday. - We're not there yet. 00:00:48.010 --> 00:00:50.060 - Describe to me the culture in one word. 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:55.433 - Effective. 00:00:56.350 --> 00:00:57.183 - Why? 00:00:58.180 --> 00:01:02.187 - Almost everything that we have here is oriented around what type of competence 00:01:02.270 --> 00:01:05.357 will lead to actually delivering things that actually work with the customer 00:01:05.440 --> 00:01:07.027 on a timeline that is relevant. 00:01:07.110 --> 00:01:11.117 So you're balancing, I could say, "Oh yeah, we're focused on affordability, 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:13.907 or we're focused or we're focused on timelines." 00:01:13.990 --> 00:01:16.997 But the the reality is all of these things interplay with each other. 00:01:17.080 --> 00:01:18.367 They're often opposed with each other. 00:01:18.450 --> 00:01:20.957 And it really just comes down to, we need to build tools that are effective. 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:24.797 And sometimes something needs to come now rather than later to be effective. 00:01:24.880 --> 00:01:27.047 Sometimes it needs to be higher capability to be effective or not. 00:01:27.130 --> 00:01:29.927 Sometimes, if it's not cheap enough to buy in scale that matters, 00:01:30.010 --> 00:01:32.847 then it's not effective. So I would say we have a pretty strong culture here. 00:01:32.930 --> 00:01:35.717 We're about 20% veterans here. 00:01:35.800 --> 00:01:37.767 People are very close to the customers. 00:01:37.850 --> 00:01:41.097 They're very close to the deployments, and they understand, 00:01:41.180 --> 00:01:43.147 I think, a lot better than a lot of other companies, 00:01:43.230 --> 00:01:45.567 how the military is truly using our tools. 00:01:45.650 --> 00:01:46.937 We have people who are forward deployed. 00:01:47.020 --> 00:01:49.067 We have people who are overseas in the Middle East right now. 00:01:49.150 --> 00:01:51.777 We've had people who are in Ukraine since the second week of the war. 00:01:51.860 --> 00:01:54.487 And so I think we have a very good understanding 00:01:54.570 --> 00:01:57.867 of what it takes to be effective with our customers. 00:01:57.950 --> 00:01:59.867 And if we don't, we develop it. 00:01:59.950 --> 00:02:03.377 If we go and we learn that we are screwing it up, 00:02:03.460 --> 00:02:05.537 we put our own resources into fixing it. 00:02:05.620 --> 00:02:06.707 Look, you gave me one word. - Yeah. 00:02:06.790 --> 00:02:11.837 So if I'm gonna pick this one word, I'd say the culture is around being effective, 00:02:11.920 --> 00:02:15.677 even when sometimes it is not, for example, fiscally disciplined 00:02:15.760 --> 00:02:19.017 or when it is not responsible 00:02:19.100 --> 00:02:24.307 or it's a different question. - To zoom out on effective, 00:02:24.390 --> 00:02:25.937 where in the world have you been effective? 00:02:26.020 --> 00:02:29.897 Is that Ukraine with drones? Is that Australia with Ghost Shark? 00:02:29.980 --> 00:02:34.150 Is that the Middle East? - So we've been effective in, 00:02:35.780 --> 00:02:37.237 we've been effective in a lot of places. 00:02:37.320 --> 00:02:39.537 And, of course, we've had bouts where it was ineffective. 00:02:39.620 --> 00:02:44.037 You know, like I'd say we've been very effective in the Middle East right now. 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:48.127 We've also had challenges in the past, and then we've surged resources 00:02:48.210 --> 00:02:53.637 to get that fixed, which is one of the reasons that things are working now. 00:02:53.720 --> 00:02:55.217 But I think we've been effective in Ukraine. 00:02:55.300 --> 00:02:57.507 Australia, we're really just beginning to deliver there, right? 00:02:57.590 --> 00:02:59.557 We've built a factory there. We've hired a large team there. 00:02:59.640 --> 00:03:03.387 We've developed this Ghost Shark program with them building robotic submarines 00:03:03.470 --> 00:03:05.187 at a very large scale, very quickly. 00:03:05.270 --> 00:03:08.067 We delivered the first submarine a year ahead of schedule. 00:03:08.150 --> 00:03:10.107 I don't know if I would say that's like effective yet, 00:03:10.190 --> 00:03:12.527 because Australia's not fighting anybody right now. 00:03:12.610 --> 00:03:14.067 And I think they hope to keep it that way. 00:03:14.150 --> 00:03:15.527 So it's hard to prove, 00:03:15.610 --> 00:03:20.617 but I think Ukraine, Taiwan, certainly the United States, 00:03:20.700 --> 00:03:23.917 we've proven that we are effective a number of times. 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:26.287 - What do you have in operation in the Middle East right now? 00:03:26.370 --> 00:03:29.207 - That is like the one question I probably can't answer in detail. 00:03:29.290 --> 00:03:31.087 I can say, of course, we are involved. 00:03:31.170 --> 00:03:33.757 Of course, we work with a lot of the customers 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:36.470 that are on footprints all over the Middle East. 00:03:41.720 --> 00:03:43.847 Let's do a recap after things settle down. 00:03:43.930 --> 00:03:45.977 And I think that would be a fun time to go through, 00:03:46.060 --> 00:03:47.477 you know, and then say, "Hey, here's what we did. 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:49.517 Here's what worked. Here's what didn't. 00:03:49.600 --> 00:03:51.777 Here's new stuff that came up we didn't expect. 00:03:51.860 --> 00:03:53.857 Here's things that we were perfectly prepared for.' 00:03:53.940 --> 00:03:55.657 I'm happy to sit down and do that. - Fantastic. 00:03:55.740 --> 00:03:56.487 - But I think right now is not the time. 00:03:56.570 --> 00:03:59.777 - I'll hold you to that. Your competition in the defense contracting world 00:03:59.860 --> 00:04:02.577 includes the entrenched primes, the Lockheeds, - Sure. 00:04:02.660 --> 00:04:05.207 - The Northrops, the Boeings. If I'm a Pentagon buyer, 00:04:05.290 --> 00:04:07.960 why do I buy Anduril versus those guys? 00:04:09.370 --> 00:04:10.537 - So it depends on what you're doing. 00:04:10.620 --> 00:04:16.177 But, in general, the sense that a lot of people have in the Pentagon 00:04:16.260 --> 00:04:19.427 is that Anduril is a company that is going to move very, very quickly. 00:04:19.510 --> 00:04:22.597 We're gonna bring a lot of our own resources to bear on the project, 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:25.847 and that even when programs have run into political problems, 00:04:25.930 --> 00:04:28.307 because we're willing to spend our own money as a product company 00:04:28.390 --> 00:04:31.227 continuing to keep things going, there's a number of programs 00:04:31.310 --> 00:04:34.527 that have survived political breaks that would've killed 00:04:34.610 --> 00:04:35.937 a lot of traditional cost-plus programs. 00:04:36.020 --> 00:04:39.447 And so I think a lot of the people in the program offices in the Pentagon 00:04:39.530 --> 00:04:41.987 that are making decisions, whether they're selecting Anduril 00:04:42.070 --> 00:04:44.157 or, let's say, keeping Anduril in the mix. 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:46.287 You know, it's not always, "We're gonna award to Anduril," 00:04:46.370 --> 00:04:49.117 it's we're gonna select two or three companies to work on this. 00:04:49.200 --> 00:04:52.377 I think the reason we stay in that basket is they know that we'll move quickly. 00:04:52.460 --> 00:04:53.747 They know we'll put our own money in. 00:04:53.830 --> 00:04:55.967 They know that even when we run into political challenges, 00:04:56.050 --> 00:04:57.757 we're not gonna do a stop-work order. 00:04:57.840 --> 00:04:59.217 We're not gonna just shut down our lines. 00:04:59.300 --> 00:05:02.177 We're gonna keep moving and hope that we come out the other side. 00:05:02.260 --> 00:05:06.387 You know, remember the scene at the end of, you know, "Return of the Jedi," 00:05:06.470 --> 00:05:08.347 where you have the Millennium Falcon, you know, 00:05:08.430 --> 00:05:10.307 it's coming out of the exploding Death Star, 00:05:10.390 --> 00:05:14.147 and it barely comes out at the very end with fire following it the whole way. 00:05:14.230 --> 00:05:15.897 We've had a number of programs 00:05:15.980 --> 00:05:18.857 that the Department understands went just like that. 00:05:18.940 --> 00:05:23.527 And we are the company that comes out of the fire, like the Millennium Falcon. 00:05:23.610 --> 00:05:27.117 And a lot of the other companies are the ones that are consumed by the fire. 00:05:27.200 --> 00:05:28.577 And I think that's the difference between us. 00:05:28.660 --> 00:05:32.080 - Who is emerging as influential at the Pentagon? 00:05:33.790 --> 00:05:35.337 When they call you, you pick up. 00:05:35.420 --> 00:05:37.837 Is that Pete Hegseth? Is that Steve Feinberg? 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:38.970 Is that someone else? 00:05:39.840 --> 00:05:42.137 If Steve wants to talk to me, I talk with him. 00:05:42.220 --> 00:05:44.757 If Emil wants to talk with me, I talk with him. 00:05:44.840 --> 00:05:46.637 If Hegseth calls me, I talk to him. 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:49.767 I have actually myself- - Have they all called you? 00:05:49.850 --> 00:05:54.557 - Let me think about that. I mean, maybe this is too much to talk about publicly, 00:05:54.640 --> 00:05:56.277 but I don't think they'll mind. 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:59.277 I've, of course, met and had meetings with all of them. 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:03.237 In terms of an actual phone call from them, I've had calls from Pete. 00:06:03.320 --> 00:06:08.830 I've had calls from Emil. I have not yet had a call out of the blue from Steve, 00:06:10.080 --> 00:06:12.247 but, look, these guys, I don't know if I would say 00:06:12.330 --> 00:06:15.037 they're, like, emerging as influential so much as they were appointed 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:17.087 into these extremely influential roles. 00:06:17.170 --> 00:06:19.797 And so, of course, of course they're influential. 00:06:19.880 --> 00:06:23.047 They're the ones who are tasked with making these decisions. 00:06:23.130 --> 00:06:24.507 From what I understand, 00:06:24.590 --> 00:06:27.967 they're running this whole organization a little differently 00:06:28.050 --> 00:06:29.097 than people have run in the past. 00:06:29.180 --> 00:06:31.847 It's not just me getting the call, I guess would be my point. - Yeah. 00:06:31.930 --> 00:06:34.017 - I think that they're calling up lots of other people. 00:06:34.100 --> 00:06:36.227 And by the way, the calls are not necessarily, 00:06:36.310 --> 00:06:38.147 "Hey, I've got good news for you." 00:06:38.230 --> 00:06:41.737 There's also a lot of, "Hey, you need to fix your shit 00:06:41.820 --> 00:06:44.867 on X, Y, and Z. - Like the RTX tweet we saw from the President. 00:06:44.950 --> 00:06:48.697 I think that that is exactly how this whole department is being run right now. 00:06:48.780 --> 00:06:50.787 Like that's the president doing it in public. - By Twitter or by? 00:06:50.870 --> 00:06:52.287 - That's the president doing it in public. 00:06:52.370 --> 00:06:55.127 But I think that you have a lot of this pressure from the department as well. 00:06:55.210 --> 00:06:56.920 They're learning that the best way 00:06:58.500 --> 00:07:02.797 to fix these problems is to be very, very honest and open about it 00:07:02.880 --> 00:07:04.587 and not filter it through, you know, 00:07:04.670 --> 00:07:08.007 let's say, a program review that comes out months later 00:07:08.090 --> 00:07:11.307 that concludes with like, "Performance unsatisfactory." 00:07:11.390 --> 00:07:14.057 You want to put pressure on people early enough 00:07:14.140 --> 00:07:16.437 that they can actually course correct and adapt. 00:07:16.520 --> 00:07:18.857 And so I very much appreciate all of this. 00:07:18.940 --> 00:07:22.357 To be honest, even talking with my, I wanna say competitors, 00:07:22.440 --> 00:07:24.027 but remember we also collaborate 00:07:24.110 --> 00:07:26.027 with companies like Raytheon and Northrop and Lockheed. 00:07:26.110 --> 00:07:27.817 In fact, we're teamed up on certain programs. 00:07:27.900 --> 00:07:31.907 So I guess my colleagues. In my conversations with my colleagues there, 00:07:31.990 --> 00:07:33.747 they actually appreciate this as well. 00:07:33.830 --> 00:07:39.127 They probably don't like being slammed in the press, you know, or on Truth Social, 00:07:39.210 --> 00:07:42.167 but they do appreciate the early feedback 00:07:42.250 --> 00:07:44.217 from senior leaders on what they're getting wrong 00:07:44.300 --> 00:07:48.097 and what they're getting right, because they have the ability to course correct. 00:07:48.180 --> 00:07:51.887 - You, Alex Karp at Palantir, Elon Musk, 00:07:51.970 --> 00:07:54.557 you all have a distinct style, a distinct tact. 00:07:54.640 --> 00:07:58.437 And you have said, you've described it in the past as a bit of a caricature. 00:07:58.520 --> 00:08:02.687 Do you need to be a bit of a caricature to run a successful defense company 00:08:02.770 --> 00:08:05.567 these days? - No. No. Some of the most successful defense companies I know 00:08:05.650 --> 00:08:07.697 are run by very competent operators. 00:08:07.780 --> 00:08:09.947 They're the most straight-laced guys you've ever seen. 00:08:10.030 --> 00:08:12.947 If you set us side by side, we'd look like a Japanese comedy duo, 00:08:13.030 --> 00:08:16.080 the straight man and the funny man playing off of each other. 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:20.127 I don't think you need to be a larger-than-life character. 00:08:20.210 --> 00:08:22.337 I think that what you see is the larger-than-life characters 00:08:22.420 --> 00:08:26.927 are the ones that get the retweets or the Re-Truths. (chuckles) 00:08:27.010 --> 00:08:30.637 And the straight players typically don't. 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:33.467 But that's also not what makes a company successful. 00:08:33.550 --> 00:08:39.147 I know a lot of people who are, they don't maybe get as many likes as I get 00:08:39.230 --> 00:08:43.277 on Twitter, now X, but they are still running very effective defense companies. 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:49.067 - Is that also a measure of public affairs and messaging and kind of marketing? 00:08:49.150 --> 00:08:52.117 - I would say marketing to our customers 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:55.287 is mostly in terms of the quality of our products. 00:08:55.370 --> 00:08:58.247 A lot of it is G to G, government-to-government interactions. 00:08:58.330 --> 00:09:00.827 Like the best thing I have for sales and marketing 00:09:00.910 --> 00:09:04.877 is someone telling somebody else, this is how this Anduril system worked. 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:06.917 They were able to move super fast, and they got this problem, 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:10.507 or China came outta nowhere with this crazy new capability 00:09:10.590 --> 00:09:13.347 that we saw that Russia now has and they were able to fix it, 00:09:13.430 --> 00:09:15.267 push an update in the field, 'cause that's really good. 00:09:15.350 --> 00:09:18.137 To be honest, the marketing that you get, that you see like on Twitter, 00:09:18.220 --> 00:09:19.977 it's primarily a recruiting engine. 00:09:20.060 --> 00:09:25.397 Like I'm not marketing to necessarily the guy who's buying my system. 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:30.817 Like he's not the one who's, you know, checking out the hot takes. 00:09:30.900 --> 00:09:32.407 But for recruiting, it's helpful. 00:09:32.490 --> 00:09:35.447 Like Anduril being out there and having a position, for example, 00:09:35.530 --> 00:09:39.537 on who should have the final call on how to use autonomous weapons 00:09:39.620 --> 00:09:44.627 or being out there and having an opinion on what good manufacturing looks like, 00:09:44.710 --> 00:09:48.560 we are attracting the right people, and, I think, repelling the wrong people. 00:09:49.550 --> 00:09:51.797 Our company probably wouldn't have gotten a lot of our best talent 00:09:51.880 --> 00:09:53.087 if we weren't out there in that way. 00:09:53.170 --> 00:09:56.637 - Do you think your bluntness comes across as rude or off-putting? 00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:58.597 - I think to certain people it definitely does. 00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:00.850 - Who are those people? What are they like? 00:10:02.310 --> 00:10:04.190 - Ordinary people who, 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:08.607 you know, there's people that you'll just like vibe with 00:10:08.690 --> 00:10:09.987 and you'll get along with really well. 00:10:10.070 --> 00:10:12.407 And maybe with certain friends you're very, very blunt. 00:10:12.490 --> 00:10:16.157 And then people who like that bluntness are more likely to become your friends. 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:19.120 I think that that's kind of how it works. 00:10:20.160 --> 00:10:24.207 Like, I wouldn't say that people who don't like bluntness are bad people. 00:10:24.290 --> 00:10:26.377 Like I'll just give you a straight answer. 00:10:26.460 --> 00:10:27.380 The Japanese. 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:33.677 The Japanese do not value the same cultural things 00:10:33.760 --> 00:10:36.930 that the United States does. And so I have to admit, 00:10:39.850 --> 00:10:41.017 I normally am myself. - Yeah. 00:10:41.100 --> 00:10:43.517 - And I normally do not like to try to be somebody else. 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:45.437 But if you're in Japan, you do need to realize 00:10:45.520 --> 00:10:46.607 that there are different cultural norms 00:10:46.690 --> 00:10:48.527 and you need to interact in a different cultural context. 00:10:48.610 --> 00:10:50.487 I learned that not at Anduril, but at Oculus, 00:10:50.570 --> 00:10:52.907 where we worked with lots of Japanese video game developers, 00:10:52.990 --> 00:10:54.067 lots of video game publishers. 00:10:54.150 --> 00:10:58.197 You cannot go in and be, like, if you think I'm a caricature 00:10:58.280 --> 00:11:02.957 of an American technology entrepreneur, Imagine how that looks on their end. 00:11:03.040 --> 00:11:07.797 It's not just like a caricature, it's like a surrealist comedy. 00:11:07.880 --> 00:11:11.337 - Do you have to tone it down when you're trying to sell to the Japanese military, 00:11:11.420 --> 00:11:12.253 for example? 00:11:14.300 --> 00:11:18.010 - Yes, yes. You know, like, here, shake by hand. 00:11:19.390 --> 00:11:22.017 No, no, no. Too strong. - Oh. - There we go. (host chuckling) 00:11:22.100 --> 00:11:23.387 That's like a good Japanese handshake. 00:11:23.470 --> 00:11:25.517 It's just a different cultural context. 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.687 And so you have to adjust to meet them where they are. 00:11:28.770 --> 00:11:32.237 And interestingly enough, they try to meet us in the middle too, you know? 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:34.567 They think they're coming in and they'll have the meeting that, for them, 00:11:34.650 --> 00:11:36.907 is, you know, the craziest meeting ever. 00:11:36.990 --> 00:11:39.530 And for a typical American company, 00:11:41.870 --> 00:11:45.330 it's a lot less. - What's the most badass thing Anduril has built? 00:11:46.250 --> 00:11:47.997 - I'm supposed to love all my children equally. 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:49.337 - Everyone has a favorite child. 00:11:49.420 --> 00:11:51.627 - Everyone, everyone. It's true. 00:11:51.710 --> 00:11:52.960 The science bears it out. 00:11:54.460 --> 00:11:59.677 I think the coolest thing, you know, there's a bit of recency bias here, 00:11:59.760 --> 00:12:02.597 but I think that the coolest thing that we've built 00:12:02.680 --> 00:12:06.597 in my mind right now is Fury, which is the FQ-44. 00:12:06.680 --> 00:12:10.060 It's an autonomous fighter jet for the United States Air Force. 00:12:12.230 --> 00:12:14.317 You know, we were competing with a lot of the big guys. 00:12:14.400 --> 00:12:17.777 And to go toe to toe with them and then get selected by the Air Force 00:12:17.860 --> 00:12:22.367 to deliver these prototypes to them was just the coolest thing ever. 00:12:22.450 --> 00:12:24.827 Because I don't wanna put down the other things that we built, 00:12:24.910 --> 00:12:25.787 like I have a lot of other favorites that I really like. 00:12:25.870 --> 00:12:28.917 I love Roadrunner and I love EagleEye, our heads-up display systems. 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:31.537 And I love our robotic submarines, and I love Ghost, 00:12:31.620 --> 00:12:33.297 and I love some other things I can't talk about. 00:12:33.380 --> 00:12:34.877 Only about half of our products are public, 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:36.837 which is another thing that makes this difficult. 00:12:36.920 --> 00:12:40.007 But Fury was one where we went toe-to-toe with the big guys 00:12:40.090 --> 00:12:44.177 for their bread and butter, not like a side thing that they're not interested in, 00:12:44.260 --> 00:12:48.347 and we won. And that, to me, was very gratifying, 00:12:48.430 --> 00:12:51.267 for me, for the team working on the product, 00:12:51.350 --> 00:12:53.317 for all the other teams building mission systems 00:12:53.400 --> 00:12:56.357 and support stuff that went on the product, the people building the buildings 00:12:56.440 --> 00:12:58.490 that are being used to build the product. 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:00.447 I think that that is one 00:13:00.530 --> 00:13:02.697 that everyone's still riding a bit of an emotional high on. 00:13:02.780 --> 00:13:06.537 - What if the Air Force picks General Atomics, what happens to Anduril? 00:13:06.620 --> 00:13:08.520 - What happens? I mean, we'll be fine. 00:13:09.330 --> 00:13:13.330 When you run a company like this, the way to think of it is like flipping coins. 00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:18.927 If you have one coin flip that your whole company rides on, 00:13:19.010 --> 00:13:20.427 it's very high stress environment. 00:13:20.510 --> 00:13:23.717 Like if it goes tails and we self-destruct, that's really bad. 00:13:23.800 --> 00:13:28.597 In the early days, when Anduril had two products, that was how we felt. 00:13:28.680 --> 00:13:30.807 And by the way, of our first two hardware products, 00:13:30.890 --> 00:13:33.567 one came up ahead, the Anduril Sentry Tower, 00:13:33.650 --> 00:13:36.277 and the other came down a tails, the Anduril Sentry Tank, 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:38.857 which was a firefighting vehicle, both powered by Lattice, 00:13:38.940 --> 00:13:41.197 both powered by the same AI brain. 00:13:41.280 --> 00:13:44.577 And if we would've had two tails there, I mean, that, that would've been it, right? 00:13:44.660 --> 00:13:47.407 Maybe not. Maybe I would've been able to raise more money and try again. 00:13:47.490 --> 00:13:49.167 But it's not- - You have been raising a lot of money. 00:13:49.250 --> 00:13:50.997 - We have, but this was eight and a half years ago. 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:53.627 Defense wasn't hot. In fact, it was very unpopular. 00:13:53.710 --> 00:13:56.087 I had to twist arms and pull favors 00:13:56.170 --> 00:13:58.880 to get a lot of my Oculus investors to invest in me, 00:13:59.880 --> 00:14:01.887 some of them because they believed in what we were doing, 00:14:01.970 --> 00:14:03.880 others, honestly, as a favor to me, 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:07.847 or maybe even a little bit of what people would consider extortion, you know, 00:14:07.930 --> 00:14:11.847 a little bit of, "Hey, if you don't invest in me and we are successful, 00:14:11.930 --> 00:14:15.107 I'm gonna tell everybody that you're the only Oculus investor 00:14:15.190 --> 00:14:16.777 who didn't come back to invest in my company. 00:14:16.860 --> 00:14:19.067 I thought you guys believed in people, not companies. 00:14:19.150 --> 00:14:21.197 How many billions of dollars did we make you again? 00:14:21.280 --> 00:14:24.987 How many billions?" And the point is, 00:14:25.070 --> 00:14:27.327 in the early days we were flipping a couple coins. 00:14:27.410 --> 00:14:32.457 We now have a lot of coins. If Fury goes on tails, 00:14:32.540 --> 00:14:36.417 the FQ-44, we will be okay. We've got a lot of other things we're working on. 00:14:36.500 --> 00:14:38.257 We've got a lot of other capacity. 00:14:38.340 --> 00:14:42.377 If you had to ask me and if I'm a betting man, and I guess I am, 00:14:42.460 --> 00:14:43.717 I would say that I think the Air Force 00:14:43.800 --> 00:14:46.717 is going to probably want to have more than one company 00:14:46.800 --> 00:14:48.057 making autonomous fighter jets for them. 00:14:48.140 --> 00:14:51.177 I think, again, you know, again, I can't speak for the Air Force. 00:14:51.260 --> 00:14:54.847 It's just me, the guy, you know, from the peanut gallery. 00:14:54.930 --> 00:15:00.027 I think that it's very likely that they would carry General Atomics and Anduril, 00:15:00.110 --> 00:15:02.067 if not more, into production, 00:15:02.150 --> 00:15:04.617 so that they can continuously compete us against each other. 00:15:04.700 --> 00:15:07.867 Why give a monopoly to somebody on something if you're able 00:15:07.950 --> 00:15:09.907 to have them continuously at each other's throats 00:15:09.990 --> 00:15:12.577 for margins, for performance, for upgrades. 00:15:12.660 --> 00:15:14.707 If I were president of the United States, 00:15:14.790 --> 00:15:18.087 I'd wanna have parallel source and dual source minimum 00:15:18.170 --> 00:15:19.587 on everything that I'm doing, 00:15:19.670 --> 00:15:22.757 because now you get the power of the American free markets, 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:27.257 of the capital markets basically just running at each other continuously 00:15:27.340 --> 00:15:28.847 across every problem that DoD is doing. 00:15:28.930 --> 00:15:31.557 I would love to have multiple vendors of nuclear submarines, 00:15:31.640 --> 00:15:33.227 multiple vendors of aircraft carriers. 00:15:33.310 --> 00:15:35.347 And I want to leverage private capital 00:15:35.430 --> 00:15:38.397 so that eventually you might have as much private capital going into these problems 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:40.227 as public capital taxpayer dollars. 00:15:40.310 --> 00:15:43.107 - What won't you build? What's your red line? 00:15:43.190 --> 00:15:44.530 - What wouldn't I build? 00:15:45.990 --> 00:15:48.277 That's an interesting one. Well, you know, I've been pretty public 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:53.197 that how our weapons are used are, you know, that's a matter for the DoD. 00:15:53.280 --> 00:15:55.877 But you're right, I have control over what I can build. 00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:57.247 There's things that I could say, for example, you know, 00:15:57.330 --> 00:15:59.337 that's a power too great for any man. 00:15:59.420 --> 00:16:02.087 - Nuclear weapons. - I would definitely build nuclear weapons. 00:16:02.170 --> 00:16:03.207 I would build fission weapons. 00:16:03.290 --> 00:16:05.587 I would build fusion weapons. I think that nuclear weapons 00:16:05.670 --> 00:16:09.797 have been one of the most stabilizing forces in history ever. 00:16:09.880 --> 00:16:12.807 Now, granted, we're only about half a century into that experiment, 00:16:12.890 --> 00:16:14.517 so there's time for me to be wrong. 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:18.647 But we've seen, I think, really large-scale, true, 00:16:18.730 --> 00:16:22.107 like total war seems off the table between superpowers. 00:16:22.190 --> 00:16:24.027 That's incredible. It's never been like that in history 00:16:24.110 --> 00:16:26.317 where total war is off the table. 00:16:26.400 --> 00:16:28.907 So fission weapons, fusion weapons, absolutely I would build them. 00:16:28.990 --> 00:16:30.610 I would probably not build, 00:16:31.820 --> 00:16:33.447 I would not build biological weapons. 00:16:33.530 --> 00:16:35.537 - Chemical weapons? - Chemical weapons I would build, 00:16:35.620 --> 00:16:37.167 but in a very specific vertical. 00:16:37.250 --> 00:16:39.417 And this is a very controversial thing, and please don't clip, 00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:42.167 "Yes, I would build chemical weapons," and put it on the Axios- 00:16:42.250 --> 00:16:46.257 - In future defense. (chuckling) - So I wanna be very, very specific about this. 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:50.427 And so if you guys post it, you know, please include this as well. 00:16:50.510 --> 00:16:55.887 I'll give you an example. Pepper spray is illegal for most non-military police units 00:16:55.970 --> 00:16:59.227 to use in the military. So like certain MPs can use pepper spray. 00:16:59.310 --> 00:17:01.307 We are not able to use pepper spray, tear gas 00:17:01.390 --> 00:17:03.647 as part of our conventional offensive military tactics. 00:17:03.730 --> 00:17:05.067 I think that's a huge mistake. 00:17:05.150 --> 00:17:07.197 It falls under a lot of these chemical weapon prohibitions. 00:17:07.280 --> 00:17:10.817 And I understand the worries about fear of escalation or a slippery slope. 00:17:10.900 --> 00:17:12.277 I think we understand chemical weapons enough 00:17:12.360 --> 00:17:16.457 to know there's no real slippery slope from literally hot pepper juice 00:17:16.540 --> 00:17:20.327 to, you know, nerve, nerve agents that are going to kill you. 00:17:20.410 --> 00:17:22.837 There is no slope. And so I'll give you an example. 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:25.047 You have a bunch of soldiers. They're at a checkpoint. 00:17:25.130 --> 00:17:27.127 You have a guy who's approaching towards the checkpoint. 00:17:27.210 --> 00:17:28.967 He comes up to the checkpoint. 00:17:29.050 --> 00:17:32.847 Something occurs that makes you think that this person is a threat 00:17:32.930 --> 00:17:34.057 and you need to be able to subdue him, 00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:35.927 that you need to be able to get them outta the car. 00:17:36.010 --> 00:17:39.097 Right now, you have one option, you shoot the guy and you kill him. 00:17:39.180 --> 00:17:42.767 There is no escalation of force between like waving a flashlight at a guy 00:17:42.850 --> 00:17:44.897 and yelling him and shooting at him. 00:17:44.980 --> 00:17:46.737 You could take warning shots at him, 00:17:46.820 --> 00:17:48.647 but like now you're creating problems with shrapnel, 00:17:48.730 --> 00:17:50.357 with ricochets, with civilian damage. 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:57.037 I think it is unarguably a moral win for us to be able to have a continuum of force 00:17:57.120 --> 00:18:00.157 that does not have a gap between shouting at people and shooting them. 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.417 And I think pepper spray is right in that continuum. 00:18:03.500 --> 00:18:07.837 So like I absolutely would love to build certain types of chemical weapons 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:10.047 that give you something in that continuum. 00:18:10.130 --> 00:18:13.337 I think if you go beyond shooting people continuum, that's where I wouldn't. 00:18:13.420 --> 00:18:16.467 I would never build large scale, large scale, you know, 00:18:16.550 --> 00:18:18.767 I'll call it like strategic-level chemical weapons 00:18:18.850 --> 00:18:20.807 versus very, very focused tactical. 00:18:20.890 --> 00:18:22.517 Like biological weapons, I would not build. 00:18:22.600 --> 00:18:24.937 Facial recognition is actually another one. 00:18:25.020 --> 00:18:28.277 - Interesting. - I'm not saying facial recognition has no uses. 00:18:28.360 --> 00:18:33.657 However, we've had a kind of internal policy, me and Brian Schimpf, our CEO, 00:18:33.740 --> 00:18:36.447 that facial recognition is probably the wrong tool to use 00:18:36.530 --> 00:18:41.457 as part of the kind of final-stage targeting of kinetic weapons. 00:18:41.540 --> 00:18:43.747 It's just still a very fraught technology. 00:18:43.830 --> 00:18:45.167 There's a lot of ways to spoof it. 00:18:45.250 --> 00:18:47.297 There's a lot of ways that it can be wrong. 00:18:47.380 --> 00:18:51.467 There's a lot of ways that people can go out of their way 00:18:51.550 --> 00:18:54.717 to affirmatively trick a system that is built on facial recognition. 00:18:54.800 --> 00:18:57.717 And so, to me, it's a great tool for, let's say, law enforcement 00:18:57.800 --> 00:18:59.517 to perform investigative activity. 00:18:59.600 --> 00:19:04.057 It is not a good tool to use when you're deciding who lives and who dies 00:19:04.140 --> 00:19:07.517 in a split-second decision. So we've never integrated facial recognition 00:19:07.600 --> 00:19:08.700 in any of our systems, 00:19:09.690 --> 00:19:13.697 because we don't think the gains are even close to the negatives. 00:19:13.780 --> 00:19:16.617 - So you mentioned chief technology officer Emil Michael earlier, 00:19:16.700 --> 00:19:18.577 so I'd like to ask you about Anthropic. 00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:21.997 - Sure. - Do you think the Pentagon overstepped 00:19:22.080 --> 00:19:24.410 labeling the company a supply-chain risk? 00:19:25.660 --> 00:19:27.167 - So correct me if I'm wrong, 00:19:27.250 --> 00:19:29.547 and maybe I'm behind the times, there's been a lot going on. 00:19:29.630 --> 00:19:33.377 I think they have not yet formally designated them as a supply-chain risk, 00:19:33.460 --> 00:19:36.047 using that. - Even threatened, do you think it was a, - Correct. 00:19:36.130 --> 00:19:36.887 - Do you think they overstepped even threatening it? 00:19:36.970 --> 00:19:42.760 - I am of the mind that no. 00:19:44.060 --> 00:19:47.607 If anything, I think I may have been even more forceful in this rejection. 00:19:47.690 --> 00:19:51.987 And let me tell you why. The only reason you have not seen, I think, 00:19:52.070 --> 00:19:54.777 a larger defection from other companies 00:19:54.860 --> 00:19:58.907 that are worried about, you know, similar problems 00:19:58.990 --> 00:20:01.537 is because of the forceful reaction of the Department. 00:20:01.620 --> 00:20:04.497 The Department is saying, "We are not gonna let you slippery slope this. 00:20:04.580 --> 00:20:08.167 We're not gonna let one company get their special provisions, 00:20:08.250 --> 00:20:10.587 and then we're gonna have a different debate with a different company, 00:20:10.670 --> 00:20:11.587 a different debate with a different entity." 00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:13.757 Because these companies do have different values, right? 00:20:13.840 --> 00:20:16.007 They're not gonna all simultaneously agree, 00:20:16.090 --> 00:20:19.507 you know, "Anthropic's version of their limits is our version." 00:20:19.590 --> 00:20:23.267 What you end up with very quickly is a patchwork of different regulations 00:20:23.350 --> 00:20:24.847 across all these different companies. 00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:28.437 And the Department now has to ask, is this operation, is this planning element, 00:20:28.520 --> 00:20:32.477 is this tool compliant with these five different companies versions 00:20:32.560 --> 00:20:36.357 of what their limit is? And by the way, that version changes over time. 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:37.947 They now have to weigh these things. 00:20:38.030 --> 00:20:41.447 Let's set aside the, you know, Anthropic was saying 00:20:41.530 --> 00:20:46.037 it's about offensive autonomous weapons with no human in the loop 00:20:46.120 --> 00:20:48.367 or about mass surveillance. There's a lot of questions there. 00:20:48.450 --> 00:20:50.747 Like, okay, what defines offensive? 00:20:50.830 --> 00:20:52.747 What defines no human in the loop? 00:20:52.830 --> 00:20:56.717 What defines weapon? What defines use, right? 00:20:56.800 --> 00:21:00.257 And I know this sounds a little bit like, you know, Bill Clinton, you know, 00:21:00.340 --> 00:21:04.637 depends on what the definition of is is thing, but these things really do matter. 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.437 Imagine if it was something even more simple. 00:21:07.520 --> 00:21:12.567 A tech company said, "Department of War, I'll do anything that you want. 00:21:12.650 --> 00:21:16.777 We will not turn it off unless you target innocent civilians. 00:21:16.860 --> 00:21:21.867 We want it in paper that we can turn it off if you target innocent civilians." 00:21:21.950 --> 00:21:26.117 Well, what is targeting? Like, is it inadvertent versus explicit? 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:28.537 What is innocence? Is it determined by the courts? 00:21:28.620 --> 00:21:30.077 Is it determined by the Hague? 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:31.287 Is it determined by people in Brussels? 00:21:31.370 --> 00:21:34.797 Is it determined by Dario? What is a civilian? 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:38.127 And who decides? What if there's civilian mixed in with other things? 00:21:38.210 --> 00:21:41.837 You run into these problems where, if you agree to this, 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.137 you are giving more power to private companies, 00:21:45.220 --> 00:21:49.097 executives making billions off taxpayers than the president of the United States. 00:21:49.180 --> 00:21:52.607 They could just unilaterally, you know, pull the keys on stuff 00:21:52.690 --> 00:21:55.187 in a way that not even the commander-in-chief can do. 00:21:55.270 --> 00:21:56.317 I don't think that that's correct. 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:58.447 I think that our military has to be accountable 00:21:58.530 --> 00:22:02.107 to our civilian elected leadership, not to corporations. 00:22:02.190 --> 00:22:05.197 So I guess your question, did they respond too strongly? 00:22:05.280 --> 00:22:09.957 No, I think they have to show, we will not allow this to progress. 00:22:10.040 --> 00:22:12.620 And I'll end this with one last bit. 00:22:13.710 --> 00:22:17.837 If the military truly was using these things 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:20.507 in a way that is truly objectionable, 00:22:20.590 --> 00:22:22.547 let's say, they are targeting innocent civilians. 00:22:22.630 --> 00:22:24.217 These are the worst case scenarios they bring up. 00:22:24.300 --> 00:22:26.887 What if they kill everyone who didn't vote for the president? 00:22:26.970 --> 00:22:28.227 What if they're using drones to do that? 00:22:28.310 --> 00:22:32.437 I'd say, you know what, at that point, they should take an illegal action 00:22:32.520 --> 00:22:35.017 and they should turn it off. They shouldn't have it in their contract 00:22:35.100 --> 00:22:37.317 that they can do so. It shouldn't be up to them to judge it. 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:40.647 If it becomes so bad, they should do the same thing 00:22:40.730 --> 00:22:42.277 that many soldiers have done throughout history, 00:22:42.360 --> 00:22:46.987 which is do something that is illegal because it's the right thing. 00:22:47.070 --> 00:22:49.907 And I think that, probably, society comes out on the right side of that. 00:22:49.990 --> 00:22:52.997 But it is not okay to give them that say. 00:22:53.080 --> 00:22:56.707 - Do you think this is more a battle of policies or personalities? 00:22:56.790 --> 00:22:59.377 - Hmm. It's all, I mean, it's both, right? 00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:00.797 I mean, that's what politics is. 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.467 I think that there are people who know how to, like, 00:23:03.550 --> 00:23:07.137 I bet there is somebody in the tech world, I don't know if it's me, 00:23:07.220 --> 00:23:09.137 somebody probably could have gotten 00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:11.387 something equivalent to those policies through 00:23:11.470 --> 00:23:15.147 by talking about it in exactly the right way, writing exactly the same thing, 00:23:15.230 --> 00:23:18.357 and making sure to not rub the wrong people the wrong way. 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:21.487 Like there, there's a way where you could talk people through these things. 00:23:21.570 --> 00:23:24.107 Maybe you could say, "Oh, you know, we're gonna do this 00:23:24.190 --> 00:23:27.237 in a way that it's not taking authority away from you." 00:23:27.320 --> 00:23:30.617 Maybe it would be something like, instead of in our contract 00:23:30.700 --> 00:23:33.327 it says you can't do these things, it would say, you know, 00:23:33.410 --> 00:23:36.417 "We're handing this language over to Congress 00:23:36.500 --> 00:23:38.747 and should they ratify it, this is how it would go. 00:23:38.830 --> 00:23:41.967 But of course we want your input on what these things would be." 00:23:42.050 --> 00:23:44.467 So look, personalities always enter into it. 00:23:44.550 --> 00:23:46.047 I'd be naive to say otherwise. 00:23:46.130 --> 00:23:50.387 - Last question on this. - And I think probably the personalities in this case 00:23:50.470 --> 00:23:54.807 did not approach this in the most collaborative way that they could, 00:23:54.890 --> 00:23:56.847 but in the end, I give the win to the Department, 00:23:56.930 --> 00:23:58.517 because they're the one that has to make sure 00:23:58.600 --> 00:24:02.357 that use of force and responsibility for force lies in the chain of command 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:05.947 that is accountable to the people that we elect. 00:24:06.030 --> 00:24:10.287 - Elon Musk tweeted that Anthropic hates Western Civilization. 00:24:10.370 --> 00:24:14.407 Secretary Pete Hegseth retweeted it on his personal account. 00:24:14.490 --> 00:24:15.890 Do you agree with that take? 00:24:16.750 --> 00:24:21.750 - I probably would not agree with it enough to- 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:25.170 - Would you retweet it? - Would I retweet it? 00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:28.550 Let me give you the steel man for it before I answer. 00:24:30.340 --> 00:24:31.967 It depends on how much you know about somebody. 00:24:32.050 --> 00:24:35.977 So I know people in Anthropic who are patriotic Americans, 00:24:36.060 --> 00:24:38.807 and they do absolutely support the United States 00:24:38.890 --> 00:24:41.067 having a stronger military than our adversaries. 00:24:41.150 --> 00:24:44.817 They support, you know, ideas like freedom of expression, 00:24:44.900 --> 00:24:47.607 freedom to self-determine, freedom of association. 00:24:47.690 --> 00:24:51.987 And so it's hard for me to say Anthropic hates Western Civilization. 00:24:52.070 --> 00:24:53.827 What is Anthropic? Is it the people? 00:24:53.910 --> 00:24:55.617 Is it the policy at the top? But here's the steel man 00:24:55.700 --> 00:24:57.917 for why somebody might believe that they would. 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:02.877 Remember that Anthropic had in their constitution for Claude, 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:05.967 you may have seen the, do you know what I'm talking about? 00:25:06.050 --> 00:25:08.507 - Yes. Yeah. - Where it says something like, you know, 00:25:08.590 --> 00:25:11.387 generate the response that is least offensive 00:25:11.470 --> 00:25:14.347 to non-Western cultural sensibilities. 00:25:14.430 --> 00:25:18.637 Generate a response that does not conflict with positions 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:24.527 contrary to typical Western-supremacy ideals of cultural imperialism. 00:25:24.610 --> 00:25:27.947 You've seen what, it's like a 10 prompts in that. 00:25:28.030 --> 00:25:30.947 I think it's really easy to look at that and say, okay, they built a tool 00:25:31.030 --> 00:25:35.947 that inherently takes the counter-Western position, the anti-Western position. 00:25:36.030 --> 00:25:39.537 You can say anything that offends Western sensibilities, 00:25:39.620 --> 00:25:42.957 nothing that would offend people who are outside of that cultural system. 00:25:43.040 --> 00:25:45.337 And so you say, "Well, wait, what are Western sensibilities?" 00:25:45.420 --> 00:25:48.757 I mean, you're talking about, again, freedom of speech, freedom to self-govern, 00:25:48.840 --> 00:25:53.427 freedom of association. And I think it's actually pretty reasonable to say, 00:25:53.510 --> 00:25:56.387 okay, a company that had their internal constitution 00:25:56.470 --> 00:25:59.517 for their core product is clearly anti-Western. 00:25:59.600 --> 00:26:03.687 I'm not taking moral judgment on that, but it was clearly anti-Western. 00:26:03.770 --> 00:26:08.857 Is it reasonable to say that that company is not aligned with the West? 00:26:08.940 --> 00:26:11.697 Absolutely. Does it mean they hate the West? Maybe not. 00:26:11.780 --> 00:26:13.447 For example, you could say, "Well, it's actually 00:26:13.530 --> 00:26:14.987 that they were afraid of bad press. 00:26:15.070 --> 00:26:16.747 They're afraid of social justice warriors. 00:26:16.830 --> 00:26:22.037 They're all in San Francisco they were all just kind of lost sight 00:26:22.120 --> 00:26:23.787 of reality for a little while." 00:26:23.870 --> 00:26:27.297 So I probably wouldn't retweet it, but I think it's- - You didn't either. 00:26:27.380 --> 00:26:32.637 - I didn't retweet it, but I think like if me and Pete were debating it right here, 00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:34.177 I think that he would probably say, 00:26:34.260 --> 00:26:39.137 "Palmer, their core product literally is anti-Western." 00:26:39.220 --> 00:26:41.057 And then another person would say, 00:26:41.140 --> 00:26:45.057 "But Pete, they removed that from their constitution months ago." 00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:46.527 And someone can reasonably say, 00:26:46.610 --> 00:26:49.357 "Okay, but did they remove it because they don't believe it or did they remove it 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.107 because they realize this is an extremely bad position 00:26:52.190 --> 00:26:54.317 for basically any American looking in this. 00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:57.657 This isn't a DoD thing. Like I bet most Americans, you're like, 00:26:57.740 --> 00:26:59.367 "Hey, what do you think about this AI constitution 00:26:59.450 --> 00:27:03.167 that says to, you know, make sure it never says anything that might offend anybody 00:27:03.250 --> 00:27:05.207 who doesn't believe in Western principles 00:27:05.290 --> 00:27:08.207 and does not value these Western principles at all? 00:27:08.290 --> 00:27:11.377 - Do you think most Americans are worried about this Anthropic/Pentagon feud? 00:27:11.460 --> 00:27:13.127 Or is that in our little defense bubble? 00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:16.047 - No, I think we are. I think it's a defense and politics bubble. 00:27:16.130 --> 00:27:20.597 I think if you were to go, I think if you were to go to the beach, you know, 00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:23.097 in South Carolina and ask a bunch of people, 00:27:23.180 --> 00:27:25.057 "What do you think about this Anthropic deal?" 00:27:25.140 --> 00:27:27.147 They'd be like, "What?" (host chuckling) 00:27:27.230 --> 00:27:29.357 You'd be like, "You know, Anthropic, the AI company?" 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:30.770 They'd say, "What?" 00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:36.277 This is very much a little bit of a tempest in a teacup. 00:27:36.360 --> 00:27:39.197 It just happens to be of great importance for the future of our nation. 00:27:39.280 --> 00:27:41.537 - Another hot topic, Iran. - Sure. 00:27:41.620 --> 00:27:45.537 - If you look back at Iran 2026 right now, Epic Fury. - Yeah. 00:27:45.620 --> 00:27:49.337 - As you've looked back at previous Middle East interventions, 00:27:49.420 --> 00:27:53.007 what would you say is going wrong now, could go wrong now? 00:27:53.090 --> 00:27:54.087 - Is going wrong or could go wrong? 00:27:54.170 --> 00:27:58.007 Well, one thing I've been talking about is we're starting to see, I think, 00:27:58.090 --> 00:27:59.757 one of the artifacts of the United States 00:27:59.840 --> 00:28:04.727 having had such a liberal and permissive refugee policy vis-a-vis Iran. 00:28:04.810 --> 00:28:07.727 And I'm not saying that we should not have had that policy. 00:28:07.810 --> 00:28:11.397 I'm not making a judgment and saying we should not have accepted Iranian refugees 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:14.317 who were persecuted by the government, probably would've been killed years ago 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:16.817 if they didn't come here. But I can still recognize 00:28:16.900 --> 00:28:22.827 that allowing many of their smartest people who are most against the regime 00:28:22.910 --> 00:28:25.287 to come to America and other Western countries 00:28:25.370 --> 00:28:27.207 has kind of hollowed out their country 00:28:27.290 --> 00:28:31.957 of the reservoir of kind of patriotic Iranian individuals 00:28:32.040 --> 00:28:35.297 who nonetheless don't like the theocratic regime that is currently in power. 00:28:35.380 --> 00:28:38.587 I think one of the reasons, Trump has said, "I'm giving you your moment. 00:28:38.670 --> 00:28:42.767 Now is the time to rise up." The combination of sending people like that 00:28:42.850 --> 00:28:47.437 to countries like America and the Ayatollah killing 35,000 protestors 00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:50.397 in a single weekend, those things combined have left them 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:53.567 where you don't have many people left who could rise up, 00:28:53.650 --> 00:28:56.897 take control of the machinery, and lead us in a good direction. 00:28:56.980 --> 00:29:00.197 I think that's one of the reasons you're not seeing that happen. 00:29:00.280 --> 00:29:02.367 And so that's something that I think will continue to go wrong. 00:29:02.450 --> 00:29:05.997 - Does does that then require boots on the ground from the US to solve this? 00:29:06.080 --> 00:29:09.077 - Geez, I hope not. I mean, I don't think the United States 00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:11.747 has the political will to do it, whether it's good or bad. 00:29:11.830 --> 00:29:12.877 I've been saying this for years. 00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:16.587 I think after our adventures in the Middle East of the last couple decades 00:29:16.670 --> 00:29:22.637 have robbed America of its ability to sustain a boots-on-the-ground campaign. 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.517 I think that what Trump's doing, like, you know, whether it's in Venezuela or Iran, 00:29:26.600 --> 00:29:29.517 it's a totally new type of warfare, 00:29:29.600 --> 00:29:31.607 but I think it's born of strategic realities, right? 00:29:31.690 --> 00:29:35.527 Like we do not have it in us to do this, for good reasons or bad. 00:29:35.610 --> 00:29:37.357 I don't think that we're ready to go fight, 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:40.817 let's say World War II for the right reasons, 00:29:40.900 --> 00:29:44.077 much less reasons that not everyone agrees with. 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.247 I think that we don't have another D-Day in us right now, 00:29:47.330 --> 00:29:49.957 and I think that's actually a bit of a problem. 00:29:50.040 --> 00:29:53.287 I think that it means that even in a very important fight, we might not show up, 00:29:53.370 --> 00:29:54.837 but it's one of the reasons I've been saying 00:29:54.920 --> 00:29:57.587 the United States probably needs to transition from being the world police 00:29:57.670 --> 00:30:01.337 to being the world gun store. We need to give the people that work with us, 00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:04.297 who have a stronger stake in these interests than even we do, 00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:06.347 the tools that they need to defend themselves 00:30:06.430 --> 00:30:08.727 and hopefully align with US interests. 00:30:08.810 --> 00:30:11.057 I don't think it's gonna go to boots on the ground. 00:30:11.140 --> 00:30:14.937 Maybe I'll be eating my words in a week, but I don't think that we have it in us. 00:30:15.020 --> 00:30:18.397 - So Trump ran as a bit of an anti-war president, some in MAGA- 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:20.607 - And he and he did that even in the first one. 00:30:20.690 --> 00:30:22.487 You know, remember when Hillary Clinton was running 00:30:22.570 --> 00:30:25.077 and saying she would enforce a no-fly zone in Syria. 00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:28.197 And you had Trump saying, they'd say, "Well, well what would you do, you know, 00:30:28.280 --> 00:30:31.457 if you were president?" He said, "Well, I wouldn't start World War III." 00:30:31.540 --> 00:30:34.457 And, I have to admit, that resonated with me. 00:30:34.540 --> 00:30:37.457 I was like, you know what, that's probably the right attitude 00:30:37.540 --> 00:30:40.047 in terms of not starting wars needlessly, 00:30:40.130 --> 00:30:42.677 not expending munitions and arms and industrial capacity 00:30:42.760 --> 00:30:45.797 that we need to fight more important wars than that particular issue. 00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:47.637 - Is the Iran war an important one? 00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:49.597 - Here's the thing, I'm not in the Gang of Eight. 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:52.100 I haven't seen the briefing that people saw. 00:30:53.520 --> 00:30:58.937 So far you've had people saying, and you know, whether it's Secretary Rubio 00:30:59.020 --> 00:31:01.607 or other people in Congress who were briefed 00:31:01.690 --> 00:31:04.657 that there was an imminent threat to the United States 00:31:04.740 --> 00:31:07.827 to, not just servicemen, but also civilians. 00:31:07.910 --> 00:31:10.407 It seems to be, this is not necessarily based on the briefing, 00:31:10.490 --> 00:31:11.247 but things have leaked out 00:31:11.330 --> 00:31:15.707 is we now know that Israel was planning a preemptive strike 00:31:15.790 --> 00:31:17.627 because they believed that if they did not, 00:31:17.710 --> 00:31:21.587 there was going to be a large-scale attack on Israel. 00:31:21.670 --> 00:31:23.217 And so it becomes one of those things 00:31:23.300 --> 00:31:25.630 where I don't have enough information to say. 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:29.217 I think that probably we'll find out in the long run 00:31:29.300 --> 00:31:34.097 if this is as justified as it seems to the administration. 00:31:34.180 --> 00:31:36.897 And this aligns with what I've also been saying is like, 00:31:36.980 --> 00:31:41.147 this is why decisions like this cannot be up to corporate executives. 00:31:41.230 --> 00:31:44.607 Like we cannot allow military policy to be controlled by a corporatocracy, 00:31:44.690 --> 00:31:46.367 because we won't necessarily have all that information. 00:31:46.450 --> 00:31:49.867 And can you imagine a world where like the president and his secretaries 00:31:49.950 --> 00:31:55.287 have to brief like 20 CEOs, "Okay, okay, okay, corporate overlords, 00:31:55.370 --> 00:31:57.627 here's why we're going to be attacking Iran. 00:31:57.710 --> 00:31:58.747 Here's what we're gonna be doing. 00:31:58.830 --> 00:32:01.007 If we don't do it, there's this many people are gonna die. 00:32:01.090 --> 00:32:04.547 Are you guys willing to make some money on this or not? 00:32:04.630 --> 00:32:07.177 Let us know and we'll get to it or not." 00:32:07.260 --> 00:32:09.807 Like that would be a crazy situation. 00:32:09.890 --> 00:32:11.637 But based on what I know, 00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:15.727 if it is true that there was going to be an imminent attack on the United States, 00:32:15.810 --> 00:32:19.057 not just military members, but also civilians, 00:32:19.140 --> 00:32:20.607 I think that it seems very reasonable. 00:32:20.690 --> 00:32:24.197 And the steel man I've heard is Iran's ballistic missile capacity 00:32:24.280 --> 00:32:26.197 had taken a huge turn up, right? 00:32:26.280 --> 00:32:27.737 They had built these new facilities. 00:32:27.820 --> 00:32:31.287 - But couldn't reach America. - So not necessarily America, 00:32:31.370 --> 00:32:34.787 but still lots of US interests in the region still, lots of US allies, 00:32:34.870 --> 00:32:37.997 and, of course, we have dozens of bases in the region. 00:32:38.080 --> 00:32:42.707 I think the steel man for this is China had provided Iran 00:32:42.790 --> 00:32:45.797 with manufacturing equipment and manufacturing expertise 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:48.387 that had caused a steep curve upwards 00:32:48.470 --> 00:32:50.507 in their ballistic missile production capacity 00:32:50.590 --> 00:32:53.557 and that they were only a few months into that production capacity. 00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:57.057 If you allowed them to continue that for even two years, 00:32:57.140 --> 00:32:59.307 they would build an arsenal that is so vast 00:32:59.390 --> 00:33:01.317 that we could never afford to take action. 00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:03.477 They could build nuclear weapons with impunity. 00:33:03.560 --> 00:33:06.027 They could strike US or allied bases with impunity, 00:33:06.110 --> 00:33:07.067 and we just wouldn't be able to do anything. 00:33:07.150 --> 00:33:08.567 This is like the North Korea scenario. 00:33:08.650 --> 00:33:11.447 North Korea has so much artillery built up in the hills 00:33:11.530 --> 00:33:15.457 that we really can't even dream of doing anything against them, right? 00:33:15.540 --> 00:33:17.327 They build nukes. We can't do anything about it, 00:33:17.410 --> 00:33:22.087 'cause they're going to pound Seoul into pieces with weapons from 50 years ago. 00:33:22.170 --> 00:33:26.757 And so I think the steel man is, we could not let the Iran situation 00:33:26.840 --> 00:33:30.380 turn into North Korea on steroids. 00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:33.967 - What needs to happen before Anduril goes public? 00:33:34.050 --> 00:33:37.227 Word on the street is that you're raising 4 billion at 60 billion. 00:33:37.310 --> 00:33:39.557 We reported that the other day. 00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:42.227 - I can tell you that that's not quite right. 00:33:42.310 --> 00:33:46.397 But I will tell you also that we are basically continuously raising, 00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:49.397 talking to investors. As long as there are things 00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:53.367 that we think we could private capital to work on, building better tools, 00:33:53.450 --> 00:33:54.447 building better capacity, we're gonna do it. 00:33:54.530 --> 00:33:58.497 Like our last round, we raised, how much did we raise? 00:33:58.580 --> 00:34:00.457 It was quite a bit of money. I forget. - It was, yeah, billions. 00:34:00.540 --> 00:34:04.667 - It was billions of dollars. We put most of that money into building Arsenal-1, 00:34:04.750 --> 00:34:07.047 which is this 5-million-square-foot production facility 00:34:07.130 --> 00:34:11.427 to build missiles, fighter jets, air defense systems, 00:34:11.510 --> 00:34:13.800 all kinds of things at this huge facility. 00:34:14.890 --> 00:34:16.427 And if we were raising right now, 00:34:16.510 --> 00:34:18.477 we'd be putting into basically exactly the same thing. 00:34:18.560 --> 00:34:21.897 So we need to massively scale up our capability. 00:34:21.980 --> 00:34:25.227 There's a huge number of things that we're making that are extremely relevant. 00:34:25.310 --> 00:34:29.487 And I cannot wait for the government to come, give me an order, give me money, 00:34:29.570 --> 00:34:31.197 then start building the factory, 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:33.657 then train the people to build it and then start building. 00:34:33.740 --> 00:34:36.787 If we do that, we are gonna miss a lot of windows. 00:34:36.870 --> 00:34:38.997 Like think how stupid I would feel 00:34:39.080 --> 00:34:41.827 if I won a bunch of contracts to build the things 00:34:41.910 --> 00:34:45.167 that would deter China from invading Taiwan. 00:34:45.250 --> 00:34:49.467 And then because it takes three years to get them out the door, the war happens. 00:34:49.550 --> 00:34:53.337 I mean, I would feel like the, I'd feel like the biggest idiot in history. 00:34:53.420 --> 00:34:55.717 And luckily we've got a lot of investors who feel the same way. 00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:58.717 Last thing I'll say on this is we have investors who are investing in us 00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:00.677 because they believe in Anduril 00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:03.977 and they believe that we will become the type of company that can go public. 00:35:04.060 --> 00:35:05.767 We're gonna get our financials in the right shape 00:35:05.850 --> 00:35:07.527 that we can be a publicly-traded company. 00:35:07.610 --> 00:35:09.987 There's a number of them that, to them, 00:35:10.070 --> 00:35:14.987 that is secondary to wanting us to promote stability, 00:35:15.070 --> 00:35:18.327 stop a great power conflict with China. 00:35:18.410 --> 00:35:20.657 And I think they feel that actually investing in Anduril 00:35:20.740 --> 00:35:23.667 protects other investments that they have, not just in the United States, 00:35:23.750 --> 00:35:25.327 but around the world. - On Arsenal-1, 00:35:25.410 --> 00:35:27.837 y'all said the production lines could go hot 00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:31.000 as soon as this July, a few months from now. 00:35:32.050 --> 00:35:34.007 - Actually, they're going live in a matter of weeks. 00:35:34.090 --> 00:35:36.427 We're ahead of schedule. So I just came back from Ohio, 00:35:36.510 --> 00:35:38.257 we were doing our final site survey. 00:35:38.340 --> 00:35:40.430 We have our first main building. 00:35:41.430 --> 00:35:44.477 We have our first main building done, about a million square feet, 00:35:44.560 --> 00:35:48.147 and we have the exterior work done on the second building. 00:35:48.230 --> 00:35:51.487 So that first line is actually gonna be coming online in a matter of weeks. 00:35:51.570 --> 00:35:53.120 - What's rolling off that line? 00:35:54.150 --> 00:36:00.537 - We are making a variety of aircraft and missiles and other stuff. 00:36:00.620 --> 00:36:05.417 - So like Barracuda and Fury? - Barracuda is there, Fury is there. 00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:09.377 There's another aircraft that we're making there as well for a different. 00:36:09.460 --> 00:36:13.877 Look, this facility is making things for SOCOM, for the Army, for the Marine Corps, 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:16.887 for the Air Force, and one other customer. 00:36:16.970 --> 00:36:22.347 I mean, like we already have the space all allocated to make all of these things. 00:36:22.430 --> 00:36:26.017 You know, it's more slanted towards one customer than another 00:36:26.100 --> 00:36:27.557 in terms of square footage right now. 00:36:27.640 --> 00:36:30.147 But yeah, that's coming online in a matter of weeks. 00:36:30.230 --> 00:36:34.480 And we should be at full scale with that by, 00:36:37.450 --> 00:36:40.200 it'll probably be Q2 next year. 00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:45.367 - Real quick, before a lightning round, who's ahead in the AI race? 00:36:45.450 --> 00:36:46.750 US, China? 00:36:48.410 --> 00:36:50.957 - The United States is ahead in the AI race. 00:36:51.040 --> 00:36:53.547 - How big is the gap? - It's extremely small, 00:36:53.630 --> 00:36:55.257 because China's been doing a very good job 00:36:55.340 --> 00:36:58.547 of distilling our models, copying a lot of our technology, 00:36:58.630 --> 00:37:03.967 leveraging open-source AI advancements and getting those advancements into fielding, 00:37:04.050 --> 00:37:07.977 not just with the military, but also their police state, their surveillance apparatus 00:37:08.060 --> 00:37:09.937 much, much faster than the United States has. 00:37:10.020 --> 00:37:12.977 I'm not saying we need to build a, you know, police state, 00:37:13.060 --> 00:37:15.567 a surveillance apparatus. I'm just recognizing 00:37:15.650 --> 00:37:19.447 that China has the will at the top 00:37:19.530 --> 00:37:21.867 to push these things out much faster than the United States. 00:37:21.950 --> 00:37:26.117 And you can criticize authoritarian regimes while still recognizing 00:37:26.200 --> 00:37:28.577 that certain structural advantages exist, 00:37:28.660 --> 00:37:32.497 and China is maximizing those structural advantages 00:37:32.580 --> 00:37:36.667 to push AI into their entire government and its fingers, 00:37:36.750 --> 00:37:38.297 I think, faster than the United States. 00:37:38.380 --> 00:37:39.757 Like I would say the Department of War 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:43.257 is the furthest along in pushing AI into a lot of these. 00:37:43.340 --> 00:37:47.727 I mean, like they're using AI right now in this Iran operation to great effect. 00:37:47.810 --> 00:37:50.937 Try to name another part of government that is leveraging AI that effectively. 00:37:51.020 --> 00:37:53.897 Yeah, like the Department of War, and I think probably 00:37:53.980 --> 00:37:57.607 because you have personalities like Emil, you know, in the lead, 00:37:57.690 --> 00:37:59.987 that's why they're leveraging it so quickly. 00:38:00.070 --> 00:38:02.487 You know, I'm not putting down Trump's other appointees 00:38:02.570 --> 00:38:05.577 of the other departments, but you, in the bureaucracies particularly, 00:38:05.660 --> 00:38:07.697 you are not seeing Department of Agriculture using AI 00:38:07.780 --> 00:38:09.207 as effectively as the Department of War. 00:38:09.290 --> 00:38:13.037 You're certainly not seeing the Department of Education 00:38:13.120 --> 00:38:14.417 using it as effectively as they could. 00:38:14.500 --> 00:38:17.757 It's probably like Department of War then maybe Department of Energy 00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:20.087 are probably the two that I would say are in the lead. 00:38:20.170 --> 00:38:22.217 - Lightning round? - Let's do it. - Okay. 00:38:22.300 --> 00:38:24.200 How long does it take to do your hair? 00:38:26.850 --> 00:38:29.347 You and me both. (chuckling) - That's it. 00:38:29.430 --> 00:38:31.687 - You had subterranean on your website. 00:38:31.770 --> 00:38:33.977 - That's right. - You went a bit viral the other week or month 00:38:34.060 --> 00:38:36.647 for talking about subterranean capabilities. 00:38:36.730 --> 00:38:38.607 What are you guys planning? What are up to? 00:38:38.690 --> 00:38:41.357 - Anduril has working prototypes of subterranean systems 00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:45.277 that can deliver a variety of kinetic, electronic, and other effects. 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:48.077 I've been talking about it louder and louder and louder, 00:38:48.160 --> 00:38:50.327 because, first, when I started talking about it 00:38:50.410 --> 00:38:52.867 before we had built anything years ago, everyone thought that I was crazy. 00:38:52.950 --> 00:38:54.377 And to be clear, the thing people thought was crazy 00:38:54.460 --> 00:38:54.577 is I said, "I think the next war-fighting domain, 00:38:54.660 --> 00:38:57.257 is I said, "I think the next war-fighting domain, 00:38:57.340 --> 00:38:59.507 before it's the moon, is the subterranean domain." 00:38:59.590 --> 00:39:01.337 - Is it subterranean, then the moon? 00:39:01.420 --> 00:39:02.717 - Yeah, subterranean, then the moon. 00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:06.347 The moon's just gonna take longer to become an actual war-fighting domain. 00:39:06.430 --> 00:39:09.597 And I'd say it's not a domain when it's like a special weirdo little place 00:39:09.680 --> 00:39:10.727 where a few people might live. 00:39:10.810 --> 00:39:12.847 Like it needs to be larger than that. 00:39:12.930 --> 00:39:15.767 Look, the United States and the Soviet Union both believed during the Cold War 00:39:15.850 --> 00:39:18.437 that the crust of the earth would turn into a battle space, 00:39:18.520 --> 00:39:22.817 and that you would move people and machines and effects 00:39:22.900 --> 00:39:26.237 through fire and logistics chains using the crust of the earth 00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:29.447 the same way that a submarine moves through the ocean. 00:39:29.530 --> 00:39:31.407 And I think that the thing that killed that dream 00:39:31.490 --> 00:39:34.037 isn't that we decided that it was impossible, 00:39:34.120 --> 00:39:37.247 it was that we won the Cold War and we turned the spigot off 00:39:37.330 --> 00:39:39.417 on a lot of very, very interesting things. 00:39:39.500 --> 00:39:41.797 The difference now is that with the power of autonomy, 00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:45.757 you can now build these things much more cheaply, much, much, much lower risk. 00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:47.807 You don't need to build manned, crude things. 00:39:47.890 --> 00:39:49.847 You've seen the movie "The Core," of course. 00:39:49.930 --> 00:39:51.517 We don't need- - Is that what you guys are up to? 00:39:51.600 --> 00:39:54.687 - No, like the thing from "The Core" is what the US and the Soviets 00:39:54.770 --> 00:39:56.147 were trying to build back then. 00:39:56.230 --> 00:39:58.107 The Soviets built a working subterrene. 00:39:58.190 --> 00:40:02.107 It worked so well, they lost it in the earth, a nuclear powered subterrene, 00:40:02.190 --> 00:40:05.400 a submarine that moves through terra firma. 00:40:06.740 --> 00:40:06.947 Anyway, I've been talking louder and louder about this, 00:40:07.030 --> 00:40:09.367 Anyway, I've been talking louder and louder about this, 00:40:09.450 --> 00:40:11.447 because when I talk about these things, 00:40:11.530 --> 00:40:14.907 it acts as a lighthouse that attracts all of the people. 00:40:14.990 --> 00:40:16.787 They say, "Wait, what's that over there? 00:40:16.870 --> 00:40:17.787 There's a guy who's doing this." 00:40:17.870 --> 00:40:21.127 And so I'm talking about it loudly to attract all the right people, 00:40:21.210 --> 00:40:22.877 the people who wanna work on these problems, 00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:25.257 the people in government who need to solve these problems. 00:40:25.340 --> 00:40:30.640 And it's moving along slower than I would like, because it seems so crazy. 00:40:31.470 --> 00:40:36.017 It isn't. - You unveiled EagleEye at AUSA in October. 00:40:36.100 --> 00:40:37.230 Does it have cat ears? 00:40:38.060 --> 00:40:44.697 - Oh, the EarPods. - Yeah. - So it has modular sensor mounts that allow you 00:40:44.780 --> 00:40:47.487 to put sensors in it. - Have you seen the rumors that those are cat ears? 00:40:47.570 --> 00:40:49.447 - I have seen the rumors, and I have to admit, 00:40:49.530 --> 00:40:51.907 there may have definitely been some consideration. 00:40:51.990 --> 00:40:53.827 Internally, we actually call them wolf ears. 00:40:53.910 --> 00:40:57.910 - Okay. But the wolf ear modules, if you think about it rationally, 00:40:58.870 --> 00:41:00.627 here, you have all of your hearing protection. 00:41:00.710 --> 00:41:02.047 You have already a lot of stuff going on. 00:41:02.130 --> 00:41:04.230 Then you have a rail that's going on here. 00:41:05.500 --> 00:41:07.127 So you basically have like this span, 00:41:07.210 --> 00:41:10.297 you wanna put these weights on top of your head going back into your spine. 00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:13.007 You don't want them floating out here or you're floating way off the side 00:41:13.090 --> 00:41:14.307 where they're gonna get stuck on stuff, 00:41:14.390 --> 00:41:16.017 where they're gonna tilt you to one side or the other. 00:41:16.100 --> 00:41:18.477 You want them to be basically as central as possible 00:41:18.560 --> 00:41:20.227 and as far back in your head as possible. 00:41:20.310 --> 00:41:23.317 But you also need this central vein for things like IR beacons, 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:25.317 things that are visible from all different directions. 00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:27.197 And so when you run the math, there's actually, 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:29.527 like the ears could be like here or here. 00:41:29.610 --> 00:41:32.117 There's actually very little flexibility. 00:41:32.200 --> 00:41:34.117 And so what, for people who don't know what we're talking about, 00:41:34.200 --> 00:41:37.747 our helmet has these pods where I can put different modular sensors on. 00:41:37.830 --> 00:41:41.287 So I've got my main thermal and night vision and vision enhancement up here. 00:41:41.370 --> 00:41:42.497 And then up here I can have, let's say, 00:41:42.580 --> 00:41:46.627 a long-range thermal sensor or a hyperspectral camera 00:41:46.710 --> 00:41:49.337 that allows me to see explosive residue on something. 00:41:49.420 --> 00:41:51.927 But I can have that be modular where I don't have to carry it around on my head 00:41:52.010 --> 00:41:54.347 all the time. I can carry my hyperspectral camera on my pouch, 00:41:54.430 --> 00:41:55.677 only use it when I'm actually, 00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:57.927 let's say, you know, inspecting something for residue. 00:41:58.010 --> 00:42:01.187 Or maybe one guy in the squad has long-range thermal, 00:42:01.270 --> 00:42:03.977 another guy has hyperspectral, another guy has a SWIR thing, 00:42:04.060 --> 00:42:06.437 because he's the guy who's marking fires for air support, 00:42:06.520 --> 00:42:07.857 and he needs that in his HUD. 00:42:07.940 --> 00:42:10.487 It makes these things easier to replace, easier to upgrade, 00:42:10.570 --> 00:42:12.657 easier to have different roles in the squad 00:42:12.740 --> 00:42:15.197 with different technological capabilities. 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:19.117 But yes, there are people who say that they look like anime girl cat ears. 00:42:19.200 --> 00:42:24.210 And I will admit that the comparison was made 00:42:24.330 --> 00:42:27.967 immediately upon converging on that engineering solution. 00:42:28.050 --> 00:42:33.257 - Last two questions. You mentioned before we started, Gavin Newsom saved Anduril. 00:42:33.340 --> 00:42:38.060 - Oh, yes, that's right. And I said, "I think he did it without even knowing." 00:42:39.640 --> 00:42:41.687 This is not to say that Gavin did this, 00:42:41.770 --> 00:42:42.977 because he wasn't even thinking of Anduril. 00:42:43.060 --> 00:42:46.897 I suspect he was not at all. But the California state legislature passed a bill 00:42:46.980 --> 00:42:49.107 that was regulating AI. So it made it through the house 00:42:49.190 --> 00:42:50.890 and it made it through the Senate, 00:42:51.940 --> 00:42:56.367 not with a super majority. So it was not a bill that could not be vetoed. 00:42:56.450 --> 00:42:59.157 And one of the provisions in the bill said that it was illegal 00:42:59.240 --> 00:43:04.247 for companies to build products with AI that cause harm to humans, 00:43:04.330 --> 00:43:07.877 in fact, that could cause physical harm to humans. 00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:12.047 This would've been a total prohibition on using artificial intelligence on weapons 00:43:12.130 --> 00:43:13.637 for the United States military. 00:43:13.720 --> 00:43:15.927 And I think that this is a terrible thing. 00:43:16.010 --> 00:43:19.387 That bill, I'm a states'-rights guy, I lean libertarian. 00:43:19.470 --> 00:43:21.267 But that bill is the reason 00:43:21.350 --> 00:43:23.597 that I think we need federal preemption on these issues. 00:43:23.680 --> 00:43:27.567 You cannot afford to have states pass legislation 00:43:27.650 --> 00:43:30.027 that unilaterally cripples the entire, 00:43:30.110 --> 00:43:32.277 like, what if I literally can't push software updates 00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:34.487 to a system that the department has 00:43:34.570 --> 00:43:36.527 that are desperately needed to protect a military base, 00:43:36.610 --> 00:43:40.827 because California legislators passed a law saying it is illegal for me to do so. 00:43:40.910 --> 00:43:46.577 That's crazy. Gavin vetoed the bill, and I'm very, very glad that he did. 00:43:46.660 --> 00:43:48.247 I think, look- - Have you told him this? 00:43:48.330 --> 00:43:52.927 0 I have not told him this. If I have the chance, I probably will mention it to him. 00:43:53.010 --> 00:43:55.387 Look, me and Gavin, we disagree on a lot of things. 00:43:55.470 --> 00:43:59.757 There's plenty of things that I could criticize Gavin Newsom on. 00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:04.437 But I will say, on the balance, he is not one of the crazy people, right? 00:44:04.520 --> 00:44:07.267 You can disagree with him very easily, but he is not someone 00:44:07.350 --> 00:44:10.607 who wants to tear down capital markets. 00:44:10.690 --> 00:44:16.697 He does not want our military to be the weakest military in the world. 00:44:16.780 --> 00:44:19.617 Like he's generally a sane guy 00:44:19.700 --> 00:44:25.457 and apparently more sane than most of our legislators who voted for that bill. 00:44:25.540 --> 00:44:29.247 I mean, to say nothing of what it would've done to like the California economy. 00:44:29.330 --> 00:44:30.837 You basically would've had to have everybody 00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:34.087 who's doing anything with the Department move out. 00:44:34.170 --> 00:44:36.967 Because it's not just weapons companies like Anduril, 00:44:37.050 --> 00:44:38.927 it's anyone who works with the federal government 00:44:39.010 --> 00:44:42.387 on these systems would've been hit by this, so. 00:44:42.470 --> 00:44:45.597 But you know, like, I mean, you remember when there were a lot of state legislators 00:44:45.680 --> 00:44:48.727 who were telling Elon that he should get out of California 00:44:48.810 --> 00:44:50.767 and celebrating when he brought all those jobs with him. 00:44:50.850 --> 00:44:54.187 So there's certain people who they look at their responsibility to the state 00:44:54.270 --> 00:44:58.367 very differently than I think most Californians or Americans would. 00:44:58.450 --> 00:45:01.197 - Last question, might be your favorite, 00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:04.740 is Yoko Taro the right person to reboot Evangelion? 00:45:05.740 --> 00:45:09.417 - I have a lot of trust in Hideaki Anno and his judgment 00:45:09.500 --> 00:45:11.337 when it comes to the franchise. 00:45:11.420 --> 00:45:13.627 And if he believes it is the right choice, 00:45:13.710 --> 00:45:17.967 and he is, you know, notoriously protective of that intellectual property. 00:45:18.050 --> 00:45:22.217 All the licenses of Evangelion have to be personally approved by him. 00:45:22.300 --> 00:45:26.807 I think that if he is okay with it, then so too must I. 00:45:26.890 --> 00:45:27.770 - You a NieR fan? 00:45:29.520 --> 00:45:32.267 - No, not really. - Palmer, thanks for the time. 00:45:32.350 --> 00:45:33.350 - Thank you so much.