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- Palmer Luckey, good to see you again,
and welcome to the "Axios Show."

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- Thank you for having us on.
- Thank you for having us on.

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- You are the founder
and figurehead of Anduril Industries,

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among the splashiest,
fastest growing, most pro-autonomy

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and polarizing defense contractors
on the planet, I would hazard?

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- Wow, seven descriptors.
- Yes, I'm big on adjectives.

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You have your haters
and you have your hot takes,

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so I would like to lean
into both if you're game.

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- I am always game to lean into
the things that make me polarizing.

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- Fantastic. Describe for me Anduril
in one sentence, one quick sentence.

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Anduril is a defense product
company that spends its own money

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designing, developing, and shipping
tools that will save taxpayers

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hundreds of billions of dollars a year

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as we make tens of billions
of dollars a year, someday.

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- Someday. - We're not there yet.

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- Describe to me the culture in one word.

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- Effective.

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- Why?

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- Almost everything that we have here
is oriented around what type of competence

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will lead to actually delivering things
that actually work with the customer

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on a timeline that is relevant.

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So you're balancing, I could say,
"Oh yeah, we're focused on affordability,

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or we're focused or we're
focused on timelines."

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But the the reality is all of these
things interplay with each other.

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They're often opposed with each other.

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And it really just comes down to,
we need to build tools that are effective.

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And sometimes something needs to come
now rather than later to be effective.

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Sometimes it needs to be higher
capability to be effective or not.

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Sometimes, if it's not cheap
enough to buy in scale that matters,

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then it's not effective. So I would say
we have a pretty strong culture here.

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We're about 20% veterans here.

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People are very close to the customers.

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They're very close to the deployments,
and they understand,

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I think, a lot better than
a lot of other companies,

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how the military is truly using our tools.

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We have people who are forward deployed.

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We have people who are overseas
in the Middle East right now.

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We've had people who are in Ukraine
since the second week of the war.

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And so I think we have
a very good understanding

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of what it takes to be
effective with our customers.

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And if we don't, we develop it.

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If we go and we learn
that we are screwing it up,

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we put our own resources into fixing it.

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Look, you gave me one word. - Yeah.

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So if I'm gonna pick this one word, I'd
say the culture is around being effective,

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even when sometimes it is not,
for example, fiscally disciplined

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or when it is not responsible

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or it's a different question.
- To zoom out on effective,

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where in the world
have you been effective?

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Is that Ukraine with drones?
Is that Australia with Ghost Shark?

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Is that the Middle East?
- So we've been effective in,

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we've been effective in a lot of places.

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And, of course, we've had
bouts where it was ineffective.

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You know, like I'd say we've been very
effective in the Middle East right now.

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We've also had challenges in the past,
and then we've surged resources

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to get that fixed, which is one of the
reasons that things are working now.

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But I think we've been
effective in Ukraine.

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Australia, we're really just
beginning to deliver there, right?

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We've built a factory there.
We've hired a large team there.

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We've developed this Ghost Shark program
with them building robotic submarines

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at a very large scale, very quickly.

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We delivered the first submarine
a year ahead of schedule.

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I don't know if I would say
that's like effective yet,

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because Australia's not
fighting anybody right now.

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And I think they hope to keep it that way.

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So it's hard to prove,

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but I think Ukraine, Taiwan,
certainly the United States,

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we've proven that we are
effective a number of times.

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- What do you have in operation
in the Middle East right now?

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- That is like the one question
I probably can't answer in detail.

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I can say, of course, we are involved.

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Of course, we work
with a lot of the customers

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that are on footprints
all over the Middle East.

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Let's do a recap after things settle down.

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And I think that would be
a fun time to go through,

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you know, and then say,
"Hey, here's what we did.

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Here's what worked. Here's what didn't.

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Here's new stuff that came
up we didn't expect.

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Here's things that we were
perfectly prepared for.'

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I'm happy to sit down
and do that. - Fantastic.

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- But I think right now is not the time.

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- I'll hold you to that. Your competition
in the defense contracting world

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includes the entrenched primes,
the Lockheeds, - Sure.

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- The Northrops, the Boeings.
If I'm a Pentagon buyer,

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why do I buy Anduril versus those guys?

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- So it depends on what you're doing.

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But, in general, the sense that a
lot of people have in the Pentagon

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is that Anduril is a company that
is going to move very, very quickly.

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We're gonna bring a lot of our own
resources to bear on the project,

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and that even when programs
have run into political problems,

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because we're willing to spend
our own money as a product company

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continuing to keep things going,
there's a number of programs

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that have survived political
breaks that would've killed

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a lot of traditional cost-plus programs.

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And so I think a lot of the people
in the program offices in the Pentagon

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that are making decisions,
whether they're selecting Anduril

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or, let's say, keeping Anduril in the mix.

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You know, it's not always,
"We're gonna award to Anduril,"

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it's we're gonna select two
or three companies to work on this.

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I think the reason we stay in that basket
is they know that we'll move quickly.

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They know we'll put our own money in.

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They know that even when we
run into political challenges,

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we're not gonna do a stop-work order.

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We're not gonna just shut down our lines.

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We're gonna keep moving and hope
that we come out the other side.

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You know, remember the scene at the end
of, you know, "Return of the Jedi,"

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where you have the Millennium
Falcon, you know,

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it's coming out of the
exploding Death Star,

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and it barely comes out at the very end
with fire following it the whole way.

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We've had a number of programs

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that the Department
understands went just like that.

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And we are the company that comes out
of the fire, like the Millennium Falcon.

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And a lot of the other companies are
the ones that are consumed by the fire.

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And I think that's
the difference between us.

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- Who is emerging
as influential at the Pentagon?

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When they call you, you pick up.

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Is that Pete Hegseth?
Is that Steve Feinberg?

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Is that someone else?

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If Steve wants to talk
to me, I talk with him.

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If Emil wants to talk
with me, I talk with him.

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If Hegseth calls me, I talk to him.

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I have actually myself- -
Have they all called you?

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- Let me think about that. I mean, maybe
this is too much to talk about publicly,

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but I don't think they'll mind.

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I've, of course, met and had
meetings with all of them.

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In terms of an actual phone call
from them, I've had calls from Pete.

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I've had calls from Emil. I have not yet
had a call out of the blue from Steve,

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but, look, these guys,
I don't know if I would say

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they're, like, emerging as influential
so much as they were appointed

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into these extremely influential roles.

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And so, of course,
of course they're influential.

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They're the ones who are tasked
with making these decisions.

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From what I understand,

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they're running this whole
organization a little differently

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than people have run in the past.

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It's not just me getting the call,
I guess would be my point. - Yeah.

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- I think that they're calling
up lots of other people.

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And by the way,
the calls are not necessarily,

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"Hey, I've got good news for you."

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There's also a lot of, "Hey,
you need to fix your shit

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on X, Y, and Z. - Like the RTX
tweet we saw from the President.

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I think that that is exactly how this
whole department is being run right now.

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Like that's the president doing
it in public. - By Twitter or by?

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- That's the president doing it in public.

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But I think that you have a lot of this
pressure from the department as well.

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They're learning that the best way

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to fix these problems is to be very,
very honest and open about it

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and not filter it through, you know,

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let's say, a program review
that comes out months later

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that concludes with like,
"Performance unsatisfactory."

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You want to put pressure
on people early enough

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that they can actually
course correct and adapt.

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And so I very much appreciate all of this.

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To be honest, even talking with my,
I wanna say competitors,

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but remember we also collaborate

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with companies like Raytheon
and Northrop and Lockheed.

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In fact, we're teamed
up on certain programs.

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So I guess my colleagues. In my
conversations with my colleagues there,

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they actually appreciate this as well.

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They probably don't like being slammed in
the press, you know, or on Truth Social,

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but they do appreciate the early feedback

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from senior leaders on what
they're getting wrong

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and what they're getting right, because
they have the ability to course correct.

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- You, Alex Karp at Palantir, Elon Musk,

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you all have a distinct
style, a distinct tact.

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And you have said, you've described it
in the past as a bit of a caricature.

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Do you need to be a bit of a caricature
to run a successful defense company

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these days? - No. No. Some of the most
successful defense companies I know

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are run by very competent operators.

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They're the most straight-laced
guys you've ever seen.

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If you set us side by side,
we'd look like a Japanese comedy duo,

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the straight man and the funny
man playing off of each other.

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I don't think you need to be
a larger-than-life character.

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I think that what you see
is the larger-than-life characters

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are the ones that get the retweets
or the Re-Truths. (chuckles)

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And the straight players typically don't.

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But that's also not what
makes a company successful.

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I know a lot of people who are, they
don't maybe get as many likes as I get

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on Twitter, now X, but they are still
running very effective defense companies.

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- Is that also a measure of public affairs
and messaging and kind of marketing?

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- I would say marketing to our customers

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is mostly in terms of the
quality of our products.

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A lot of it is G to G,
government-to-government interactions.

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Like the best thing I have
for sales and marketing

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is someone telling somebody else,
this is how this Anduril system worked.

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They were able to move super fast,
and they got this problem,

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or China came outta nowhere
with this crazy new capability

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that we saw that Russia now has
and they were able to fix it,

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push an update in the field,
'cause that's really good.

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To be honest, the marketing that you
get, that you see like on Twitter,

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it's primarily a recruiting engine.

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Like I'm not marketing to necessarily
the guy who's buying my system.

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Like he's not the one who's,
you know, checking out the hot takes.

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But for recruiting, it's helpful.

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Like Anduril being out there
and having a position, for example,

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on who should have the final call
on how to use autonomous weapons

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or being out there and having an opinion
on what good manufacturing looks like,

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we are attracting the right people,
and, I think, repelling the wrong people.

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Our company probably wouldn't have
gotten a lot of our best talent

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if we weren't out there in that way.

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- Do you think your bluntness
comes across as rude or off-putting?

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- I think to certain
people it definitely does.

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- Who are those people?
What are they like?

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- Ordinary people who,

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you know, there's people
that you'll just like vibe with

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and you'll get along with really well.

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And maybe with certain friends
you're very, very blunt.

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And then people who like that bluntness
are more likely to become your friends.

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I think that that's kind of how it works.

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Like, I wouldn't say that people who
don't like bluntness are bad people.

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Like I'll just give you a straight answer.

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The Japanese.

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The Japanese do not value
the same cultural things

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that the United States does.
And so I have to admit,

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I normally am myself. - Yeah.

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- And I normally do not like
to try to be somebody else.

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But if you're in Japan,
you do need to realize

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that there are different cultural norms

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and you need to interact
in a different cultural context.

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I learned that not
at Anduril, but at Oculus,

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where we worked with lots
of Japanese video game developers,

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lots of video game publishers.

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You cannot go in and be, like,
if you think I'm a caricature

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of an American technology entrepreneur,
Imagine how that looks on their end.

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It's not just like a caricature,
it's like a surrealist comedy.

226
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,337
- Do you have to tone it down when you're
trying to sell to the Japanese military,

227
00:11:11,420 --> 00:11:12,253
for example?

228
00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:18,010
- Yes, yes. You know,
like, here, shake by hand.

229
00:11:19,390 --> 00:11:22,017
No, no, no. Too strong. - Oh.
- There we go. (host chuckling)

230
00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:23,387
That's like a good Japanese handshake.

231
00:11:23,470 --> 00:11:25,517
It's just a different cultural context.

232
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,687
And so you have to adjust
to meet them where they are.

233
00:11:28,770 --> 00:11:32,237
And interestingly enough, they try
to meet us in the middle too, you know?

234
00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,567
They think they're coming in and they'll
have the meeting that, for them,

235
00:11:34,650 --> 00:11:36,907
is, you know, the craziest meeting ever.

236
00:11:36,990 --> 00:11:39,530
And for a typical American company,

237
00:11:41,870 --> 00:11:45,330
it's a lot less. - What's the most
badass thing Anduril has built?

238
00:11:46,250 --> 00:11:47,997
- I'm supposed to love
all my children equally.

239
00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:49,337
- Everyone has a favorite child.

240
00:11:49,420 --> 00:11:51,627
- Everyone, everyone. It's true.

241
00:11:51,710 --> 00:11:52,960
The science bears it out.

242
00:11:54,460 --> 00:11:59,677
I think the coolest thing, you know,
there's a bit of recency bias here,

243
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,597
but I think that the coolest
thing that we've built

244
00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:06,597
in my mind right now is Fury,
which is the FQ-44.

245
00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:10,060
It's an autonomous fighter jet
for the United States Air Force.

246
00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:14,317
You know, we were competing
with a lot of the big guys.

247
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,777
And to go toe to toe with them
and then get selected by the Air Force

248
00:12:17,860 --> 00:12:22,367
to deliver these prototypes to them
was just the coolest thing ever.

249
00:12:22,450 --> 00:12:24,827
Because I don't wanna put down
the other things that we built,

250
00:12:24,910 --> 00:12:25,787
like I have a lot of other
favorites that I really like.

251
00:12:25,870 --> 00:12:28,917
I love Roadrunner and I love EagleEye,
our heads-up display systems.

252
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,537
And I love our robotic
submarines, and I love Ghost,

253
00:12:31,620 --> 00:12:33,297
and I love some other
things I can't talk about.

254
00:12:33,380 --> 00:12:34,877
Only about half
of our products are public,

255
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:36,837
which is another thing
that makes this difficult.

256
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,007
But Fury was one where we went
toe-to-toe with the big guys

257
00:12:40,090 --> 00:12:44,177
for their bread and butter, not like a
side thing that they're not interested in,

258
00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:48,347
and we won. And that,
to me, was very gratifying,

259
00:12:48,430 --> 00:12:51,267
for me, for the team
working on the product,

260
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:53,317
for all the other teams
building mission systems

261
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,357
and support stuff that went on the
product, the people building the buildings

262
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,490
that are being used to build the product.

263
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:00,447
I think that that is one

264
00:13:00,530 --> 00:13:02,697
that everyone's still riding
a bit of an emotional high on.

265
00:13:02,780 --> 00:13:06,537
- What if the Air Force picks General
Atomics, what happens to Anduril?

266
00:13:06,620 --> 00:13:08,520
- What happens? I mean, we'll be fine.

267
00:13:09,330 --> 00:13:13,330
When you run a company like this, the way
to think of it is like flipping coins.

268
00:13:14,340 --> 00:13:18,927
If you have one coin flip
that your whole company rides on,

269
00:13:19,010 --> 00:13:20,427
it's very high stress environment.

270
00:13:20,510 --> 00:13:23,717
Like if it goes tails and we
self-destruct, that's really bad.

271
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:28,597
In the early days, when Anduril had
two products, that was how we felt.

272
00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:30,807
And by the way, of our first
two hardware products,

273
00:13:30,890 --> 00:13:33,567
one came up ahead,
the Anduril Sentry Tower,

274
00:13:33,650 --> 00:13:36,277
and the other came down a tails,
the Anduril Sentry Tank,

275
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,857
which was a firefighting vehicle,
both powered by Lattice,

276
00:13:38,940 --> 00:13:41,197
both powered by the same AI brain.

277
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,577
And if we would've had two tails there, I
mean, that, that would've been it, right?

278
00:13:44,660 --> 00:13:47,407
Maybe not. Maybe I would've been able
to raise more money and try again.

279
00:13:47,490 --> 00:13:49,167
But it's not- - You have
been raising a lot of money.

280
00:13:49,250 --> 00:13:50,997
- We have, but this was eight
and a half years ago.

281
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,627
Defense wasn't hot.
In fact, it was very unpopular.

282
00:13:53,710 --> 00:13:56,087
I had to twist arms and pull favors

283
00:13:56,170 --> 00:13:58,880
to get a lot of my Oculus
investors to invest in me,

284
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:01,887
some of them because they
believed in what we were doing,

285
00:14:01,970 --> 00:14:03,880
others, honestly, as a favor to me,

286
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,847
or maybe even a little bit of what
people would consider extortion, you know,

287
00:14:07,930 --> 00:14:11,847
a little bit of, "Hey, if you don't
invest in me and we are successful,

288
00:14:11,930 --> 00:14:15,107
I'm gonna tell everybody that
you're the only Oculus investor

289
00:14:15,190 --> 00:14:16,777
who didn't come back
to invest in my company.

290
00:14:16,860 --> 00:14:19,067
I thought you guys believed
in people, not companies.

291
00:14:19,150 --> 00:14:21,197
How many billions of dollars
did we make you again?

292
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,987
How many billions?" And the point is,

293
00:14:25,070 --> 00:14:27,327
in the early days we were
flipping a couple coins.

294
00:14:27,410 --> 00:14:32,457
We now have a lot of coins.
If Fury goes on tails,

295
00:14:32,540 --> 00:14:36,417
the FQ-44, we will be okay. We've got
a lot of other things we're working on.

296
00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:38,257
We've got a lot of other capacity.

297
00:14:38,340 --> 00:14:42,377
If you had to ask me and if I'm
a betting man, and I guess I am,

298
00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:43,717
I would say that I think the Air Force

299
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,717
is going to probably want
to have more than one company

300
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,057
making autonomous fighter jets for them.

301
00:14:48,140 --> 00:14:51,177
I think, again, you know, again,
I can't speak for the Air Force.

302
00:14:51,260 --> 00:14:54,847
It's just me, the guy, you know,
from the peanut gallery.

303
00:14:54,930 --> 00:15:00,027
I think that it's very likely that they
would carry General Atomics and Anduril,

304
00:15:00,110 --> 00:15:02,067
if not more, into production,

305
00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:04,617
so that they can continuously
compete us against each other.

306
00:15:04,700 --> 00:15:07,867
Why give a monopoly to somebody
on something if you're able

307
00:15:07,950 --> 00:15:09,907
to have them continuously
at each other's throats

308
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:12,577
for margins,
for performance, for upgrades.

309
00:15:12,660 --> 00:15:14,707
If I were president of the United States,

310
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:18,087
I'd wanna have parallel
source and dual source minimum

311
00:15:18,170 --> 00:15:19,587
on everything that I'm doing,

312
00:15:19,670 --> 00:15:22,757
because now you get the power
of the American free markets,

313
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:27,257
of the capital markets basically just
running at each other continuously

314
00:15:27,340 --> 00:15:28,847
across every problem that DoD is doing.

315
00:15:28,930 --> 00:15:31,557
I would love to have multiple
vendors of nuclear submarines,

316
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,227
multiple vendors of aircraft carriers.

317
00:15:33,310 --> 00:15:35,347
And I want to leverage private capital

318
00:15:35,430 --> 00:15:38,397
so that eventually you might have as much
private capital going into these problems

319
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,227
as public capital taxpayer dollars.

320
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:43,107
- What won't you build?
What's your red line?

321
00:15:43,190 --> 00:15:44,530
- What wouldn't I build?

322
00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:48,277
That's an interesting one. Well,
you know, I've been pretty public

323
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,197
that how our weapons are used are,
you know, that's a matter for the DoD.

324
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,877
But you're right, I have
control over what I can build.

325
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,247
There's things that I could
say, for example, you know,

326
00:15:57,330 --> 00:15:59,337
that's a power too great for any man.

327
00:15:59,420 --> 00:16:02,087
- Nuclear weapons. - I would
definitely build nuclear weapons.

328
00:16:02,170 --> 00:16:03,207
I would build fission weapons.

329
00:16:03,290 --> 00:16:05,587
I would build fusion weapons.
I think that nuclear weapons

330
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:09,797
have been one of the most
stabilizing forces in history ever.

331
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,807
Now, granted, we're only about
half a century into that experiment,

332
00:16:12,890 --> 00:16:14,517
so there's time for me to be wrong.

333
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,647
But we've seen, I think,
really large-scale, true,

334
00:16:18,730 --> 00:16:22,107
like total war seems off
the table between superpowers.

335
00:16:22,190 --> 00:16:24,027
That's incredible.
It's never been like that in history

336
00:16:24,110 --> 00:16:26,317
where total war is off the table.

337
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,907
So fission weapons, fusion weapons,
absolutely I would build them.

338
00:16:28,990 --> 00:16:30,610
I would probably not build,

339
00:16:31,820 --> 00:16:33,447
I would not build biological weapons.

340
00:16:33,530 --> 00:16:35,537
- Chemical weapons?
- Chemical weapons I would build,

341
00:16:35,620 --> 00:16:37,167
but in a very specific vertical.

342
00:16:37,250 --> 00:16:39,417
And this is a very controversial
thing, and please don't clip,

343
00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:42,167
"Yes, I would build chemical
weapons," and put it on the Axios-

344
00:16:42,250 --> 00:16:46,257
- In future defense. (chuckling) - So I
wanna be very, very specific about this.

345
00:16:46,340 --> 00:16:50,427
And so if you guys post it,
you know, please include this as well.

346
00:16:50,510 --> 00:16:55,887
I'll give you an example. Pepper spray is
illegal for most non-military police units

347
00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:59,227
to use in the military.
So like certain MPs can use pepper spray.

348
00:16:59,310 --> 00:17:01,307
We are not able to use
pepper spray, tear gas

349
00:17:01,390 --> 00:17:03,647
as part of our conventional
offensive military tactics.

350
00:17:03,730 --> 00:17:05,067
I think that's a huge mistake.

351
00:17:05,150 --> 00:17:07,197
It falls under a lot of these
chemical weapon prohibitions.

352
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,817
And I understand the worries about
fear of escalation or a slippery slope.

353
00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:12,277
I think we understand
chemical weapons enough

354
00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:16,457
to know there's no real slippery
slope from literally hot pepper juice

355
00:17:16,540 --> 00:17:20,327
to, you know, nerve, nerve
agents that are going to kill you.

356
00:17:20,410 --> 00:17:22,837
There is no slope.
And so I'll give you an example.

357
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,047
You have a bunch of soldiers.
They're at a checkpoint.

358
00:17:25,130 --> 00:17:27,127
You have a guy who's approaching
towards the checkpoint.

359
00:17:27,210 --> 00:17:28,967
He comes up to the checkpoint.

360
00:17:29,050 --> 00:17:32,847
Something occurs that makes you
think that this person is a threat

361
00:17:32,930 --> 00:17:34,057
and you need to be able to subdue him,

362
00:17:34,140 --> 00:17:35,927
that you need to be able
to get them outta the car.

363
00:17:36,010 --> 00:17:39,097
Right now, you have one option,
you shoot the guy and you kill him.

364
00:17:39,180 --> 00:17:42,767
There is no escalation of force between
like waving a flashlight at a guy

365
00:17:42,850 --> 00:17:44,897
and yelling him and shooting at him.

366
00:17:44,980 --> 00:17:46,737
You could take warning shots at him,

367
00:17:46,820 --> 00:17:48,647
but like now you're creating
problems with shrapnel,

368
00:17:48,730 --> 00:17:50,357
with ricochets, with civilian damage.

369
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:57,037
I think it is unarguably a moral win for
us to be able to have a continuum of force

370
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:00,157
that does not have a gap between
shouting at people and shooting them.

371
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,417
And I think pepper spray
is right in that continuum.

372
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:07,837
So like I absolutely would love to build
certain types of chemical weapons

373
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,047
that give you something in that continuum.

374
00:18:10,130 --> 00:18:13,337
I think if you go beyond shooting people
continuum, that's where I wouldn't.

375
00:18:13,420 --> 00:18:16,467
I would never build large scale,
large scale, you know,

376
00:18:16,550 --> 00:18:18,767
I'll call it like
strategic-level chemical weapons

377
00:18:18,850 --> 00:18:20,807
versus very, very focused tactical.

378
00:18:20,890 --> 00:18:22,517
Like biological weapons,
I would not build.

379
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,937
Facial recognition
is actually another one.

380
00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:28,277
- Interesting. - I'm not saying
facial recognition has no uses.

381
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:33,657
However, we've had a kind of internal
policy, me and Brian Schimpf, our CEO,

382
00:18:33,740 --> 00:18:36,447
that facial recognition
is probably the wrong tool to use

383
00:18:36,530 --> 00:18:41,457
as part of the kind of final-stage
targeting of kinetic weapons.

384
00:18:41,540 --> 00:18:43,747
It's just still a very fraught technology.

385
00:18:43,830 --> 00:18:45,167
There's a lot of ways to spoof it.

386
00:18:45,250 --> 00:18:47,297
There's a lot of ways
that it can be wrong.

387
00:18:47,380 --> 00:18:51,467
There's a lot of ways that
people can go out of their way

388
00:18:51,550 --> 00:18:54,717
to affirmatively trick a system
that is built on facial recognition.

389
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,717
And so, to me, it's a great tool
for, let's say, law enforcement

390
00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,517
to perform investigative activity.

391
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,057
It is not a good tool to use when
you're deciding who lives and who dies

392
00:19:04,140 --> 00:19:07,517
in a split-second decision. So we've
never integrated facial recognition

393
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:08,700
in any of our systems,

394
00:19:09,690 --> 00:19:13,697
because we don't think the gains
are even close to the negatives.

395
00:19:13,780 --> 00:19:16,617
- So you mentioned chief technology
officer Emil Michael earlier,

396
00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:18,577
so I'd like to ask you about Anthropic.

397
00:19:18,660 --> 00:19:21,997
- Sure. - Do you think
the Pentagon overstepped

398
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,410
labeling the company a supply-chain risk?

399
00:19:25,660 --> 00:19:27,167
- So correct me if I'm wrong,

400
00:19:27,250 --> 00:19:29,547
and maybe I'm behind the times,
there's been a lot going on.

401
00:19:29,630 --> 00:19:33,377
I think they have not yet formally
designated them as a supply-chain risk,

402
00:19:33,460 --> 00:19:36,047
using that. - Even threatened,
do you think it was a, - Correct.

403
00:19:36,130 --> 00:19:36,887
- Do you think they
overstepped even threatening it?

404
00:19:36,970 --> 00:19:42,760
- I am of the mind that no.

405
00:19:44,060 --> 00:19:47,607
If anything, I think I may have been
even more forceful in this rejection.

406
00:19:47,690 --> 00:19:51,987
And let me tell you why. The only
reason you have not seen, I think,

407
00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:54,777
a larger defection from other companies

408
00:19:54,860 --> 00:19:58,907
that are worried about,
you know, similar problems

409
00:19:58,990 --> 00:20:01,537
is because of the forceful
reaction of the Department.

410
00:20:01,620 --> 00:20:04,497
The Department is saying, "We are
not gonna let you slippery slope this.

411
00:20:04,580 --> 00:20:08,167
We're not gonna let one company
get their special provisions,

412
00:20:08,250 --> 00:20:10,587
and then we're gonna have a different
debate with a different company,

413
00:20:10,670 --> 00:20:11,587
a different debate
with a different entity."

414
00:20:11,670 --> 00:20:13,757
Because these companies do
have different values, right?

415
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,007
They're not gonna all
simultaneously agree,

416
00:20:16,090 --> 00:20:19,507
you know, "Anthropic's version
of their limits is our version."

417
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:23,267
What you end up with very quickly
is a patchwork of different regulations

418
00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:24,847
across all these different companies.

419
00:20:24,930 --> 00:20:28,437
And the Department now has to ask, is
this operation, is this planning element,

420
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,477
is this tool compliant with these
five different companies versions

421
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,357
of what their limit is? And by the way,
that version changes over time.

422
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:37,947
They now have to weigh these things.

423
00:20:38,030 --> 00:20:41,447
Let's set aside the,
you know, Anthropic was saying

424
00:20:41,530 --> 00:20:46,037
it's about offensive autonomous
weapons with no human in the loop

425
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,367
or about mass surveillance.
There's a lot of questions there.

426
00:20:48,450 --> 00:20:50,747
Like, okay, what defines offensive?

427
00:20:50,830 --> 00:20:52,747
What defines no human in the loop?

428
00:20:52,830 --> 00:20:56,717
What defines weapon?
What defines use, right?

429
00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,257
And I know this sounds a little bit like,
you know, Bill Clinton, you know,

430
00:21:00,340 --> 00:21:04,637
depends on what the definition of is is
thing, but these things really do matter.

431
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,437
Imagine if it was something
even more simple.

432
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:12,567
A tech company said, "Department of War,
I'll do anything that you want.

433
00:21:12,650 --> 00:21:16,777
We will not turn it off unless
you target innocent civilians.

434
00:21:16,860 --> 00:21:21,867
We want it in paper that we can turn it
off if you target innocent civilians."

435
00:21:21,950 --> 00:21:26,117
Well, what is targeting? Like,
is it inadvertent versus explicit?

436
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,537
What is innocence?
Is it determined by the courts?

437
00:21:28,620 --> 00:21:30,077
Is it determined by the Hague?

438
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,287
Is it determined by people in Brussels?

439
00:21:31,370 --> 00:21:34,797
Is it determined by Dario?
What is a civilian?

440
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,127
And who decides? What if there's
civilian mixed in with other things?

441
00:21:38,210 --> 00:21:41,837
You run into these problems
where, if you agree to this,

442
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,137
you are giving more power
to private companies,

443
00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:49,097
executives making billions off taxpayers
than the president of the United States.

444
00:21:49,180 --> 00:21:52,607
They could just unilaterally,
you know, pull the keys on stuff

445
00:21:52,690 --> 00:21:55,187
in a way that not even
the commander-in-chief can do.

446
00:21:55,270 --> 00:21:56,317
I don't think that that's correct.

447
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,447
I think that our military
has to be accountable

448
00:21:58,530 --> 00:22:02,107
to our civilian elected leadership,
not to corporations.

449
00:22:02,190 --> 00:22:05,197
So I guess your question,
did they respond too strongly?

450
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,957
No, I think they have to show,
we will not allow this to progress.

451
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,620
And I'll end this with one last bit.

452
00:22:13,710 --> 00:22:17,837
If the military truly
was using these things

453
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,507
in a way that is truly objectionable,

454
00:22:20,590 --> 00:22:22,547
let's say, they are
targeting innocent civilians.

455
00:22:22,630 --> 00:22:24,217
These are the worst case
scenarios they bring up.

456
00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:26,887
What if they kill everyone who
didn't vote for the president?

457
00:22:26,970 --> 00:22:28,227
What if they're using drones to do that?

458
00:22:28,310 --> 00:22:32,437
I'd say, you know what, at that point,
they should take an illegal action

459
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,017
and they should turn it off.
They shouldn't have it in their contract

460
00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:37,317
that they can do so.
It shouldn't be up to them to judge it.

461
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,647
If it becomes so bad,
they should do the same thing

462
00:22:40,730 --> 00:22:42,277
that many soldiers have
done throughout history,

463
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:46,987
which is do something that is illegal
because it's the right thing.

464
00:22:47,070 --> 00:22:49,907
And I think that, probably, society
comes out on the right side of that.

465
00:22:49,990 --> 00:22:52,997
But it is not okay to give them that say.

466
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,707
- Do you think this is more a battle
of policies or personalities?

467
00:22:56,790 --> 00:22:59,377
- Hmm. It's all, I mean, it's both, right?

468
00:22:59,460 --> 00:23:00,797
I mean, that's what politics is.

469
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,467
I think that there are
people who know how to, like,

470
00:23:03,550 --> 00:23:07,137
I bet there is somebody in the tech
world, I don't know if it's me,

471
00:23:07,220 --> 00:23:09,137
somebody probably could have gotten

472
00:23:09,220 --> 00:23:11,387
something equivalent
to those policies through

473
00:23:11,470 --> 00:23:15,147
by talking about it in exactly the right
way, writing exactly the same thing,

474
00:23:15,230 --> 00:23:18,357
and making sure to not rub
the wrong people the wrong way.

475
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,487
Like there, there's a way where you
could talk people through these things.

476
00:23:21,570 --> 00:23:24,107
Maybe you could say, "Oh,
you know, we're gonna do this

477
00:23:24,190 --> 00:23:27,237
in a way that it's not taking
authority away from you."

478
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,617
Maybe it would be something like,
instead of in our contract

479
00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:33,327
it says you can't do these things,
it would say, you know,

480
00:23:33,410 --> 00:23:36,417
"We're handing this
language over to Congress

481
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:38,747
and should they ratify it,
this is how it would go.

482
00:23:38,830 --> 00:23:41,967
But of course we want your input
on what these things would be."

483
00:23:42,050 --> 00:23:44,467
So look, personalities
always enter into it.

484
00:23:44,550 --> 00:23:46,047
I'd be naive to say otherwise.

485
00:23:46,130 --> 00:23:50,387
- Last question on this. - And I think
probably the personalities in this case

486
00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:54,807
did not approach this in the most
collaborative way that they could,

487
00:23:54,890 --> 00:23:56,847
but in the end, I give
the win to the Department,

488
00:23:56,930 --> 00:23:58,517
because they're the one
that has to make sure

489
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,357
that use of force and responsibility
for force lies in the chain of command

490
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,947
that is accountable
to the people that we elect.

491
00:24:06,030 --> 00:24:10,287
- Elon Musk tweeted that Anthropic
hates Western Civilization.

492
00:24:10,370 --> 00:24:14,407
Secretary Pete Hegseth retweeted
it on his personal account.

493
00:24:14,490 --> 00:24:15,890
Do you agree with that take?

494
00:24:16,750 --> 00:24:21,750
- I probably would not
agree with it enough to-

495
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,170
- Would you retweet it?
- Would I retweet it?

496
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,550
Let me give you the steel
man for it before I answer.

497
00:24:30,340 --> 00:24:31,967
It depends on how much
you know about somebody.

498
00:24:32,050 --> 00:24:35,977
So I know people in Anthropic
who are patriotic Americans,

499
00:24:36,060 --> 00:24:38,807
and they do absolutely
support the United States

500
00:24:38,890 --> 00:24:41,067
having a stronger military
than our adversaries.

501
00:24:41,150 --> 00:24:44,817
They support, you know,
ideas like freedom of expression,

502
00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:47,607
freedom to self-determine,
freedom of association.

503
00:24:47,690 --> 00:24:51,987
And so it's hard for me to say
Anthropic hates Western Civilization.

504
00:24:52,070 --> 00:24:53,827
What is Anthropic? Is it the people?

505
00:24:53,910 --> 00:24:55,617
Is it the policy at the top?
But here's the steel man

506
00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:57,917
for why somebody might
believe that they would.

507
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,877
Remember that Anthropic had
in their constitution for Claude,

508
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,967
you may have seen the,
do you know what I'm talking about?

509
00:25:06,050 --> 00:25:08,507
- Yes. Yeah. - Where it says
something like, you know,

510
00:25:08,590 --> 00:25:11,387
generate the response
that is least offensive

511
00:25:11,470 --> 00:25:14,347
to non-Western cultural sensibilities.

512
00:25:14,430 --> 00:25:18,637
Generate a response that does
not conflict with positions

513
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:24,527
contrary to typical Western-supremacy
ideals of cultural imperialism.

514
00:25:24,610 --> 00:25:27,947
You've seen what,
it's like a 10 prompts in that.

515
00:25:28,030 --> 00:25:30,947
I think it's really easy to look
at that and say, okay, they built a tool

516
00:25:31,030 --> 00:25:35,947
that inherently takes the counter-Western
position, the anti-Western position.

517
00:25:36,030 --> 00:25:39,537
You can say anything that
offends Western sensibilities,

518
00:25:39,620 --> 00:25:42,957
nothing that would offend people who
are outside of that cultural system.

519
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,337
And so you say, "Well, wait,
what are Western sensibilities?"

520
00:25:45,420 --> 00:25:48,757
I mean, you're talking about, again,
freedom of speech, freedom to self-govern,

521
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,427
freedom of association. And I think
it's actually pretty reasonable to say,

522
00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:56,387
okay, a company that had
their internal constitution

523
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:59,517
for their core product
is clearly anti-Western.

524
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,687
I'm not taking moral judgment on that,
but it was clearly anti-Western.

525
00:26:03,770 --> 00:26:08,857
Is it reasonable to say that that
company is not aligned with the West?

526
00:26:08,940 --> 00:26:11,697
Absolutely. Does it mean
they hate the West? Maybe not.

527
00:26:11,780 --> 00:26:13,447
For example, you could say,
"Well, it's actually

528
00:26:13,530 --> 00:26:14,987
that they were afraid of bad press.

529
00:26:15,070 --> 00:26:16,747
They're afraid of social justice warriors.

530
00:26:16,830 --> 00:26:22,037
They're all in San Francisco they
were all just kind of lost sight

531
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:23,787
of reality for a little while."

532
00:26:23,870 --> 00:26:27,297
So I probably wouldn't retweet it,
but I think it's- - You didn't either.

533
00:26:27,380 --> 00:26:32,637
- I didn't retweet it, but I think like if
me and Pete were debating it right here,

534
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,177
I think that he would probably say,

535
00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:39,137
"Palmer, their core product
literally is anti-Western."

536
00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:41,057
And then another person would say,

537
00:26:41,140 --> 00:26:45,057
"But Pete, they removed that from
their constitution months ago."

538
00:26:45,140 --> 00:26:46,527
And someone can reasonably say,

539
00:26:46,610 --> 00:26:49,357
"Okay, but did they remove it because they
don't believe it or did they remove it

540
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,107
because they realize this
is an extremely bad position

541
00:26:52,190 --> 00:26:54,317
for basically any
American looking in this.

542
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,657
This isn't a DoD thing.
Like I bet most Americans, you're like,

543
00:26:57,740 --> 00:26:59,367
"Hey, what do you think
about this AI constitution

544
00:26:59,450 --> 00:27:03,167
that says to, you know, make sure it never
says anything that might offend anybody

545
00:27:03,250 --> 00:27:05,207
who doesn't believe in Western principles

546
00:27:05,290 --> 00:27:08,207
and does not value these
Western principles at all?

547
00:27:08,290 --> 00:27:11,377
- Do you think most Americans are worried
about this Anthropic/Pentagon feud?

548
00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:13,127
Or is that in our little defense bubble?

549
00:27:13,210 --> 00:27:16,047
- No, I think we are. I think
it's a defense and politics bubble.

550
00:27:16,130 --> 00:27:20,597
I think if you were to go, I think if
you were to go to the beach, you know,

551
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,097
in South Carolina
and ask a bunch of people,

552
00:27:23,180 --> 00:27:25,057
"What do you think about
this Anthropic deal?"

553
00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:27,147
They'd be like, "What?" (host chuckling)

554
00:27:27,230 --> 00:27:29,357
You'd be like, "You know,
Anthropic, the AI company?"

555
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:30,770
They'd say, "What?"

556
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,277
This is very much a little
bit of a tempest in a teacup.

557
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:39,197
It just happens to be of great
importance for the future of our nation.

558
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,537
- Another hot topic, Iran. - Sure.

559
00:27:41,620 --> 00:27:45,537
- If you look back at Iran 2026
right now, Epic Fury. - Yeah.

560
00:27:45,620 --> 00:27:49,337
- As you've looked back at previous
Middle East interventions,

561
00:27:49,420 --> 00:27:53,007
what would you say is going
wrong now, could go wrong now?

562
00:27:53,090 --> 00:27:54,087
- Is going wrong or could go wrong?

563
00:27:54,170 --> 00:27:58,007
Well, one thing I've been talking
about is we're starting to see, I think,

564
00:27:58,090 --> 00:27:59,757
one of the artifacts of the United States

565
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,727
having had such a liberal and permissive
refugee policy vis-a-vis Iran.

566
00:28:04,810 --> 00:28:07,727
And I'm not saying that we
should not have had that policy.

567
00:28:07,810 --> 00:28:11,397
I'm not making a judgment and saying we
should not have accepted Iranian refugees

568
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,317
who were persecuted by the government,
probably would've been killed years ago

569
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,817
if they didn't come here.
But I can still recognize

570
00:28:16,900 --> 00:28:22,827
that allowing many of their smartest
people who are most against the regime

571
00:28:22,910 --> 00:28:25,287
to come to America
and other Western countries

572
00:28:25,370 --> 00:28:27,207
has kind of hollowed out their country

573
00:28:27,290 --> 00:28:31,957
of the reservoir of kind
of patriotic Iranian individuals

574
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,297
who nonetheless don't like the theocratic
regime that is currently in power.

575
00:28:35,380 --> 00:28:38,587
I think one of the reasons, Trump
has said, "I'm giving you your moment.

576
00:28:38,670 --> 00:28:42,767
Now is the time to rise up." The
combination of sending people like that

577
00:28:42,850 --> 00:28:47,437
to countries like America and the
Ayatollah killing 35,000 protestors

578
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,397
in a single weekend, those
things combined have left them

579
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,567
where you don't have many
people left who could rise up,

580
00:28:53,650 --> 00:28:56,897
take control of the machinery,
and lead us in a good direction.

581
00:28:56,980 --> 00:29:00,197
I think that's one of the reasons
you're not seeing that happen.

582
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,367
And so that's something that I
think will continue to go wrong.

583
00:29:02,450 --> 00:29:05,997
- Does does that then require boots
on the ground from the US to solve this?

584
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,077
- Geez, I hope not. I mean,
I don't think the United States

585
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,747
has the political will to do it,
whether it's good or bad.

586
00:29:11,830 --> 00:29:12,877
I've been saying this for years.

587
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,587
I think after our adventures in the
Middle East of the last couple decades

588
00:29:16,670 --> 00:29:22,637
have robbed America of its ability
to sustain a boots-on-the-ground campaign.

589
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,517
I think that what Trump's doing, like, you
know, whether it's in Venezuela or Iran,

590
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,517
it's a totally new type of warfare,

591
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,607
but I think it's born
of strategic realities, right?

592
00:29:31,690 --> 00:29:35,527
Like we do not have it in us to do
this, for good reasons or bad.

593
00:29:35,610 --> 00:29:37,357
I don't think that we're
ready to go fight,

594
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,817
let's say World War II
for the right reasons,

595
00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:44,077
much less reasons that not
everyone agrees with.

596
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,247
I think that we don't have
another D-Day in us right now,

597
00:29:47,330 --> 00:29:49,957
and I think that's
actually a bit of a problem.

598
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,287
I think that it means that even in a very
important fight, we might not show up,

599
00:29:53,370 --> 00:29:54,837
but it's one of the
reasons I've been saying

600
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,587
the United States probably needs
to transition from being the world police

601
00:29:57,670 --> 00:30:01,337
to being the world gun store. We need
to give the people that work with us,

602
00:30:01,420 --> 00:30:04,297
who have a stronger stake
in these interests than even we do,

603
00:30:04,380 --> 00:30:06,347
the tools that they
need to defend themselves

604
00:30:06,430 --> 00:30:08,727
and hopefully align with US interests.

605
00:30:08,810 --> 00:30:11,057
I don't think it's gonna
go to boots on the ground.

606
00:30:11,140 --> 00:30:14,937
Maybe I'll be eating my words in a week,
but I don't think that we have it in us.

607
00:30:15,020 --> 00:30:18,397
- So Trump ran as a bit of an
anti-war president, some in MAGA-

608
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,607
- And he and he did
that even in the first one.

609
00:30:20,690 --> 00:30:22,487
You know, remember when
Hillary Clinton was running

610
00:30:22,570 --> 00:30:25,077
and saying she would enforce
a no-fly zone in Syria.

611
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,197
And you had Trump saying, they'd say,
"Well, well what would you do, you know,

612
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,457
if you were president?" He said,
"Well, I wouldn't start World War III."

613
00:30:31,540 --> 00:30:34,457
And, I have to admit,
that resonated with me.

614
00:30:34,540 --> 00:30:37,457
I was like, you know what,
that's probably the right attitude

615
00:30:37,540 --> 00:30:40,047
in terms of not starting wars needlessly,

616
00:30:40,130 --> 00:30:42,677
not expending munitions
and arms and industrial capacity

617
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,797
that we need to fight more important
wars than that particular issue.

618
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,637
- Is the Iran war an important one?

619
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,597
- Here's the thing,
I'm not in the Gang of Eight.

620
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,100
I haven't seen the briefing
that people saw.

621
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,937
So far you've had people saying,
and you know, whether it's Secretary Rubio

622
00:30:59,020 --> 00:31:01,607
or other people
in Congress who were briefed

623
00:31:01,690 --> 00:31:04,657
that there was an imminent
threat to the United States

624
00:31:04,740 --> 00:31:07,827
to, not just servicemen,
but also civilians.

625
00:31:07,910 --> 00:31:10,407
It seems to be, this is not
necessarily based on the briefing,

626
00:31:10,490 --> 00:31:11,247
but things have leaked out

627
00:31:11,330 --> 00:31:15,707
is we now know that Israel
was planning a preemptive strike

628
00:31:15,790 --> 00:31:17,627
because they believed
that if they did not,

629
00:31:17,710 --> 00:31:21,587
there was going to be
a large-scale attack on Israel.

630
00:31:21,670 --> 00:31:23,217
And so it becomes one of those things

631
00:31:23,300 --> 00:31:25,630
where I don't have
enough information to say.

632
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,217
I think that probably we'll
find out in the long run

633
00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:34,097
if this is as justified as it
seems to the administration.

634
00:31:34,180 --> 00:31:36,897
And this aligns with what
I've also been saying is like,

635
00:31:36,980 --> 00:31:41,147
this is why decisions like this cannot
be up to corporate executives.

636
00:31:41,230 --> 00:31:44,607
Like we cannot allow military policy
to be controlled by a corporatocracy,

637
00:31:44,690 --> 00:31:46,367
because we won't necessarily
have all that information.

638
00:31:46,450 --> 00:31:49,867
And can you imagine a world where
like the president and his secretaries

639
00:31:49,950 --> 00:31:55,287
have to brief like 20 CEOs, "Okay,
okay, okay, corporate overlords,

640
00:31:55,370 --> 00:31:57,627
here's why we're going
to be attacking Iran.

641
00:31:57,710 --> 00:31:58,747
Here's what we're gonna be doing.

642
00:31:58,830 --> 00:32:01,007
If we don't do it, there's
this many people are gonna die.

643
00:32:01,090 --> 00:32:04,547
Are you guys willing to make
some money on this or not?

644
00:32:04,630 --> 00:32:07,177
Let us know and we'll get to it or not."

645
00:32:07,260 --> 00:32:09,807
Like that would be a crazy situation.

646
00:32:09,890 --> 00:32:11,637
But based on what I know,

647
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,727
if it is true that there was going to be
an imminent attack on the United States,

648
00:32:15,810 --> 00:32:19,057
not just military members,
but also civilians,

649
00:32:19,140 --> 00:32:20,607
I think that it seems very reasonable.

650
00:32:20,690 --> 00:32:24,197
And the steel man I've heard
is Iran's ballistic missile capacity

651
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,197
had taken a huge turn up, right?

652
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:27,737
They had built these new facilities.

653
00:32:27,820 --> 00:32:31,287
- But couldn't reach America.
- So not necessarily America,

654
00:32:31,370 --> 00:32:34,787
but still lots of US interests
in the region still, lots of US allies,

655
00:32:34,870 --> 00:32:37,997
and, of course, we have
dozens of bases in the region.

656
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:42,707
I think the steel man
for this is China had provided Iran

657
00:32:42,790 --> 00:32:45,797
with manufacturing equipment
and manufacturing expertise

658
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,387
that had caused a steep curve upwards

659
00:32:48,470 --> 00:32:50,507
in their ballistic
missile production capacity

660
00:32:50,590 --> 00:32:53,557
and that they were only a few
months into that production capacity.

661
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,057
If you allowed them to continue
that for even two years,

662
00:32:57,140 --> 00:32:59,307
they would build
an arsenal that is so vast

663
00:32:59,390 --> 00:33:01,317
that we could never afford to take action.

664
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,477
They could build nuclear
weapons with impunity.

665
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,027
They could strike US
or allied bases with impunity,

666
00:33:06,110 --> 00:33:07,067
and we just wouldn't
be able to do anything.

667
00:33:07,150 --> 00:33:08,567
This is like the North Korea scenario.

668
00:33:08,650 --> 00:33:11,447
North Korea has so much
artillery built up in the hills

669
00:33:11,530 --> 00:33:15,457
that we really can't even dream
of doing anything against them, right?

670
00:33:15,540 --> 00:33:17,327
They build nukes.
We can't do anything about it,

671
00:33:17,410 --> 00:33:22,087
'cause they're going to pound Seoul into
pieces with weapons from 50 years ago.

672
00:33:22,170 --> 00:33:26,757
And so I think the steel man is,
we could not let the Iran situation

673
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,380
turn into North Korea on steroids.

674
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,967
- What needs to happen
before Anduril goes public?

675
00:33:34,050 --> 00:33:37,227
Word on the street is that you're
raising 4 billion at 60 billion.

676
00:33:37,310 --> 00:33:39,557
We reported that the other day.

677
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,227
- I can tell you that
that's not quite right.

678
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:46,397
But I will tell you also that we
are basically continuously raising,

679
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,397
talking to investors.
As long as there are things

680
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,367
that we think we could private capital
to work on, building better tools,

681
00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:54,447
building better capacity,
we're gonna do it.

682
00:33:54,530 --> 00:33:58,497
Like our last round, we raised,
how much did we raise?

683
00:33:58,580 --> 00:34:00,457
It was quite a bit of money.
I forget. - It was, yeah, billions.

684
00:34:00,540 --> 00:34:04,667
- It was billions of dollars. We put most
of that money into building Arsenal-1,

685
00:34:04,750 --> 00:34:07,047
which is this 5-million-square-foot
production facility

686
00:34:07,130 --> 00:34:11,427
to build missiles, fighter
jets, air defense systems,

687
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:13,800
all kinds of things at this huge facility.

688
00:34:14,890 --> 00:34:16,427
And if we were raising right now,

689
00:34:16,510 --> 00:34:18,477
we'd be putting into basically
exactly the same thing.

690
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,897
So we need to massively
scale up our capability.

691
00:34:21,980 --> 00:34:25,227
There's a huge number of things that we're
making that are extremely relevant.

692
00:34:25,310 --> 00:34:29,487
And I cannot wait for the government
to come, give me an order, give me money,

693
00:34:29,570 --> 00:34:31,197
then start building the factory,

694
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,657
then train the people to build
it and then start building.

695
00:34:33,740 --> 00:34:36,787
If we do that, we are
gonna miss a lot of windows.

696
00:34:36,870 --> 00:34:38,997
Like think how stupid I would feel

697
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,827
if I won a bunch of contracts
to build the things

698
00:34:41,910 --> 00:34:45,167
that would deter China
from invading Taiwan.

699
00:34:45,250 --> 00:34:49,467
And then because it takes three years
to get them out the door, the war happens.

700
00:34:49,550 --> 00:34:53,337
I mean, I would feel like the, I'd
feel like the biggest idiot in history.

701
00:34:53,420 --> 00:34:55,717
And luckily we've got a lot
of investors who feel the same way.

702
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,717
Last thing I'll say on this is we
have investors who are investing in us

703
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,677
because they believe in Anduril

704
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,977
and they believe that we will become
the type of company that can go public.

705
00:35:04,060 --> 00:35:05,767
We're gonna get our financials
in the right shape

706
00:35:05,850 --> 00:35:07,527
that we can be a publicly-traded company.

707
00:35:07,610 --> 00:35:09,987
There's a number of them that, to them,

708
00:35:10,070 --> 00:35:14,987
that is secondary to wanting
us to promote stability,

709
00:35:15,070 --> 00:35:18,327
stop a great power conflict with China.

710
00:35:18,410 --> 00:35:20,657
And I think they feel that
actually investing in Anduril

711
00:35:20,740 --> 00:35:23,667
protects other investments that they
have, not just in the United States,

712
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:25,327
but around the world. - On Arsenal-1,

713
00:35:25,410 --> 00:35:27,837
y'all said the production
lines could go hot

714
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,000
as soon as this July,
a few months from now.

715
00:35:32,050 --> 00:35:34,007
- Actually, they're going
live in a matter of weeks.

716
00:35:34,090 --> 00:35:36,427
We're ahead of schedule.
So I just came back from Ohio,

717
00:35:36,510 --> 00:35:38,257
we were doing our final site survey.

718
00:35:38,340 --> 00:35:40,430
We have our first main building.

719
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:44,477
We have our first main building done,
about a million square feet,

720
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,147
and we have the exterior work
done on the second building.

721
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:51,487
So that first line is actually gonna
be coming online in a matter of weeks.

722
00:35:51,570 --> 00:35:53,120
- What's rolling off that line?

723
00:35:54,150 --> 00:36:00,537
- We are making a variety of aircraft
and missiles and other stuff.

724
00:36:00,620 --> 00:36:05,417
- So like Barracuda and Fury?
- Barracuda is there, Fury is there.

725
00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:09,377
There's another aircraft that we're
making there as well for a different.

726
00:36:09,460 --> 00:36:13,877
Look, this facility is making things for
SOCOM, for the Army, for the Marine Corps,

727
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,887
for the Air Force, and one other customer.

728
00:36:16,970 --> 00:36:22,347
I mean, like we already have the space
all allocated to make all of these things.

729
00:36:22,430 --> 00:36:26,017
You know, it's more slanted
towards one customer than another

730
00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:27,557
in terms of square footage right now.

731
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,147
But yeah, that's coming
online in a matter of weeks.

732
00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:34,480
And we should be at full
scale with that by,

733
00:36:37,450 --> 00:36:40,200
it'll probably be Q2 next year.

734
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,367
- Real quick, before a lightning
round, who's ahead in the AI race?

735
00:36:45,450 --> 00:36:46,750
US, China?

736
00:36:48,410 --> 00:36:50,957
- The United States
is ahead in the AI race.

737
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,547
- How big is the gap?
- It's extremely small,

738
00:36:53,630 --> 00:36:55,257
because China's been doing a very good job

739
00:36:55,340 --> 00:36:58,547
of distilling our models,
copying a lot of our technology,

740
00:36:58,630 --> 00:37:03,967
leveraging open-source AI advancements and
getting those advancements into fielding,

741
00:37:04,050 --> 00:37:07,977
not just with the military, but also their
police state, their surveillance apparatus

742
00:37:08,060 --> 00:37:09,937
much, much faster than
the United States has.

743
00:37:10,020 --> 00:37:12,977
I'm not saying we need to build a,
you know, police state,

744
00:37:13,060 --> 00:37:15,567
a surveillance apparatus.
I'm just recognizing

745
00:37:15,650 --> 00:37:19,447
that China has the will at the top

746
00:37:19,530 --> 00:37:21,867
to push these things out much
faster than the United States.

747
00:37:21,950 --> 00:37:26,117
And you can criticize authoritarian
regimes while still recognizing

748
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,577
that certain structural advantages exist,

749
00:37:28,660 --> 00:37:32,497
and China is maximizing
those structural advantages

750
00:37:32,580 --> 00:37:36,667
to push AI into their entire
government and its fingers,

751
00:37:36,750 --> 00:37:38,297
I think, faster than the United States.

752
00:37:38,380 --> 00:37:39,757
Like I would say the Department of War

753
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,257
is the furthest along in pushing
AI into a lot of these.

754
00:37:43,340 --> 00:37:47,727
I mean, like they're using AI right now
in this Iran operation to great effect.

755
00:37:47,810 --> 00:37:50,937
Try to name another part of government
that is leveraging AI that effectively.

756
00:37:51,020 --> 00:37:53,897
Yeah, like the Department
of War, and I think probably

757
00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:57,607
because you have personalities
like Emil, you know, in the lead,

758
00:37:57,690 --> 00:37:59,987
that's why they're
leveraging it so quickly.

759
00:38:00,070 --> 00:38:02,487
You know, I'm not putting
down Trump's other appointees

760
00:38:02,570 --> 00:38:05,577
of the other departments, but you,
in the bureaucracies particularly,

761
00:38:05,660 --> 00:38:07,697
you are not seeing Department
of Agriculture using AI

762
00:38:07,780 --> 00:38:09,207
as effectively as the Department of War.

763
00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:13,037
You're certainly not seeing
the Department of Education

764
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,417
using it as effectively as they could.

765
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:17,757
It's probably like Department of War
then maybe Department of Energy

766
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,087
are probably the two that I
would say are in the lead.

767
00:38:20,170 --> 00:38:22,217
- Lightning round? - Let's do it. - Okay.

768
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:24,200
How long does it take to do your hair?

769
00:38:26,850 --> 00:38:29,347
You and me both. (chuckling) - That's it.

770
00:38:29,430 --> 00:38:31,687
- You had subterranean on your website.

771
00:38:31,770 --> 00:38:33,977
- That's right. - You went a bit
viral the other week or month

772
00:38:34,060 --> 00:38:36,647
for talking about
subterranean capabilities.

773
00:38:36,730 --> 00:38:38,607
What are you guys planning?
What are up to?

774
00:38:38,690 --> 00:38:41,357
- Anduril has working prototypes
of subterranean systems

775
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,277
that can deliver a variety of kinetic,
electronic, and other effects.

776
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,077
I've been talking about it
louder and louder and louder,

777
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,327
because, first, when I
started talking about it

778
00:38:50,410 --> 00:38:52,867
before we had built anything years ago,
everyone thought that I was crazy.

779
00:38:52,950 --> 00:38:54,377
And to be clear, the thing
people thought was crazy

780
00:38:54,460 --> 00:38:54,577
is I said, "I think
the next war-fighting domain,

781
00:38:54,660 --> 00:38:57,257
is I said, "I think
the next war-fighting domain,

782
00:38:57,340 --> 00:38:59,507
before it's the moon,
is the subterranean domain."

783
00:38:59,590 --> 00:39:01,337
- Is it subterranean, then the moon?

784
00:39:01,420 --> 00:39:02,717
- Yeah, subterranean, then the moon.

785
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,347
The moon's just gonna take longer
to become an actual war-fighting domain.

786
00:39:06,430 --> 00:39:09,597
And I'd say it's not a domain when
it's like a special weirdo little place

787
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:10,727
where a few people might live.

788
00:39:10,810 --> 00:39:12,847
Like it needs to be larger than that.

789
00:39:12,930 --> 00:39:15,767
Look, the United States and the Soviet
Union both believed during the Cold War

790
00:39:15,850 --> 00:39:18,437
that the crust of the earth
would turn into a battle space,

791
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,817
and that you would move
people and machines and effects

792
00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:26,237
through fire and logistics chains
using the crust of the earth

793
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,447
the same way that a submarine
moves through the ocean.

794
00:39:29,530 --> 00:39:31,407
And I think that the thing
that killed that dream

795
00:39:31,490 --> 00:39:34,037
isn't that we decided
that it was impossible,

796
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,247
it was that we won the Cold
War and we turned the spigot off

797
00:39:37,330 --> 00:39:39,417
on a lot of very, very interesting things.

798
00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:41,797
The difference now is that
with the power of autonomy,

799
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,757
you can now build these things much more
cheaply, much, much, much lower risk.

800
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,807
You don't need to build
manned, crude things.

801
00:39:47,890 --> 00:39:49,847
You've seen the movie
"The Core," of course.

802
00:39:49,930 --> 00:39:51,517
We don't need- - Is that
what you guys are up to?

803
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,687
- No, like the thing from "The
Core" is what the US and the Soviets

804
00:39:54,770 --> 00:39:56,147
were trying to build back then.

805
00:39:56,230 --> 00:39:58,107
The Soviets built a working subterrene.

806
00:39:58,190 --> 00:40:02,107
It worked so well, they lost it in the
earth, a nuclear powered subterrene,

807
00:40:02,190 --> 00:40:05,400
a submarine that moves
through terra firma.

808
00:40:06,740 --> 00:40:06,947
Anyway, I've been talking
louder and louder about this,

809
00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:09,367
Anyway, I've been talking
louder and louder about this,

810
00:40:09,450 --> 00:40:11,447
because when I talk about these things,

811
00:40:11,530 --> 00:40:14,907
it acts as a lighthouse
that attracts all of the people.

812
00:40:14,990 --> 00:40:16,787
They say, "Wait, what's that over there?

813
00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:17,787
There's a guy who's doing this."

814
00:40:17,870 --> 00:40:21,127
And so I'm talking about it loudly
to attract all the right people,

815
00:40:21,210 --> 00:40:22,877
the people who wanna
work on these problems,

816
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,257
the people in government who
need to solve these problems.

817
00:40:25,340 --> 00:40:30,640
And it's moving along slower than I
would like, because it seems so crazy.

818
00:40:31,470 --> 00:40:36,017
It isn't. - You unveiled
EagleEye at AUSA in October.

819
00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:37,230
Does it have cat ears?

820
00:40:38,060 --> 00:40:44,697
- Oh, the EarPods. - Yeah. - So it has
modular sensor mounts that allow you

821
00:40:44,780 --> 00:40:47,487
to put sensors in it. - Have you seen
the rumors that those are cat ears?

822
00:40:47,570 --> 00:40:49,447
- I have seen the rumors,
and I have to admit,

823
00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:51,907
there may have definitely
been some consideration.

824
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:53,827
Internally, we actually
call them wolf ears.

825
00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:57,910
- Okay. But the wolf ear modules,
if you think about it rationally,

826
00:40:58,870 --> 00:41:00,627
here, you have all
of your hearing protection.

827
00:41:00,710 --> 00:41:02,047
You have already a lot of stuff going on.

828
00:41:02,130 --> 00:41:04,230
Then you have a rail that's going on here.

829
00:41:05,500 --> 00:41:07,127
So you basically have like this span,

830
00:41:07,210 --> 00:41:10,297
you wanna put these weights on top
of your head going back into your spine.

831
00:41:10,380 --> 00:41:13,007
You don't want them floating out here
or you're floating way off the side

832
00:41:13,090 --> 00:41:14,307
where they're gonna get stuck on stuff,

833
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:16,017
where they're gonna tilt
you to one side or the other.

834
00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:18,477
You want them to be basically
as central as possible

835
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,227
and as far back in your head as possible.

836
00:41:20,310 --> 00:41:23,317
But you also need this central
vein for things like IR beacons,

837
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,317
things that are visible
from all different directions.

838
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,197
And so when you run the math,
there's actually,

839
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,527
like the ears could be like here or here.

840
00:41:29,610 --> 00:41:32,117
There's actually very little flexibility.

841
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,117
And so what, for people who don't
know what we're talking about,

842
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,747
our helmet has these pods where I
can put different modular sensors on.

843
00:41:37,830 --> 00:41:41,287
So I've got my main thermal and night
vision and vision enhancement up here.

844
00:41:41,370 --> 00:41:42,497
And then up here I can have, let's say,

845
00:41:42,580 --> 00:41:46,627
a long-range thermal sensor
or a hyperspectral camera

846
00:41:46,710 --> 00:41:49,337
that allows me to see
explosive residue on something.

847
00:41:49,420 --> 00:41:51,927
But I can have that be modular where I
don't have to carry it around on my head

848
00:41:52,010 --> 00:41:54,347
all the time. I can carry
my hyperspectral camera on my pouch,

849
00:41:54,430 --> 00:41:55,677
only use it when I'm actually,

850
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,927
let's say, you know,
inspecting something for residue.

851
00:41:58,010 --> 00:42:01,187
Or maybe one guy in the squad
has long-range thermal,

852
00:42:01,270 --> 00:42:03,977
another guy has hyperspectral,
another guy has a SWIR thing,

853
00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:06,437
because he's the guy who's
marking fires for air support,

854
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:07,857
and he needs that in his HUD.

855
00:42:07,940 --> 00:42:10,487
It makes these things easier
to replace, easier to upgrade,

856
00:42:10,570 --> 00:42:12,657
easier to have different
roles in the squad

857
00:42:12,740 --> 00:42:15,197
with different technological capabilities.

858
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,117
But yes, there are people who say
that they look like anime girl cat ears.

859
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:24,210
And I will admit that
the comparison was made

860
00:42:24,330 --> 00:42:27,967
immediately upon converging
on that engineering solution.

861
00:42:28,050 --> 00:42:33,257
- Last two questions. You mentioned before
we started, Gavin Newsom saved Anduril.

862
00:42:33,340 --> 00:42:38,060
- Oh, yes, that's right. And I said,
"I think he did it without even knowing."

863
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,687
This is not to say that Gavin did this,

864
00:42:41,770 --> 00:42:42,977
because he wasn't even
thinking of Anduril.

865
00:42:43,060 --> 00:42:46,897
I suspect he was not at all. But the
California state legislature passed a bill

866
00:42:46,980 --> 00:42:49,107
that was regulating AI.
So it made it through the house

867
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:50,890
and it made it through the Senate,

868
00:42:51,940 --> 00:42:56,367
not with a super majority. So it
was not a bill that could not be vetoed.

869
00:42:56,450 --> 00:42:59,157
And one of the provisions
in the bill said that it was illegal

870
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:04,247
for companies to build products
with AI that cause harm to humans,

871
00:43:04,330 --> 00:43:07,877
in fact, that could cause
physical harm to humans.

872
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,047
This would've been a total prohibition on
using artificial intelligence on weapons

873
00:43:12,130 --> 00:43:13,637
for the United States military.

874
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:15,927
And I think that this is a terrible thing.

875
00:43:16,010 --> 00:43:19,387
That bill, I'm a states'-rights
guy, I lean libertarian.

876
00:43:19,470 --> 00:43:21,267
But that bill is the reason

877
00:43:21,350 --> 00:43:23,597
that I think we need federal
preemption on these issues.

878
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,567
You cannot afford to have
states pass legislation

879
00:43:27,650 --> 00:43:30,027
that unilaterally cripples the entire,

880
00:43:30,110 --> 00:43:32,277
like, what if I literally
can't push software updates

881
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,487
to a system that the department has

882
00:43:34,570 --> 00:43:36,527
that are desperately needed
to protect a military base,

883
00:43:36,610 --> 00:43:40,827
because California legislators passed a
law saying it is illegal for me to do so.

884
00:43:40,910 --> 00:43:46,577
That's crazy. Gavin vetoed the bill,
and I'm very, very glad that he did.

885
00:43:46,660 --> 00:43:48,247
I think, look- - Have you told him this?

886
00:43:48,330 --> 00:43:52,927
0 I have not told him this. If I have the
chance, I probably will mention it to him.

887
00:43:53,010 --> 00:43:55,387
Look, me and Gavin,
we disagree on a lot of things.

888
00:43:55,470 --> 00:43:59,757
There's plenty of things that I
could criticize Gavin Newsom on.

889
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:04,437
But I will say, on the balance,
he is not one of the crazy people, right?

890
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,267
You can disagree with him very
easily, but he is not someone

891
00:44:07,350 --> 00:44:10,607
who wants to tear down capital markets.

892
00:44:10,690 --> 00:44:16,697
He does not want our military to be
the weakest military in the world.

893
00:44:16,780 --> 00:44:19,617
Like he's generally a sane guy

894
00:44:19,700 --> 00:44:25,457
and apparently more sane than most of
our legislators who voted for that bill.

895
00:44:25,540 --> 00:44:29,247
I mean, to say nothing of what it would've
done to like the California economy.

896
00:44:29,330 --> 00:44:30,837
You basically would've
had to have everybody

897
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,087
who's doing anything
with the Department move out.

898
00:44:34,170 --> 00:44:36,967
Because it's not just weapons
companies like Anduril,

899
00:44:37,050 --> 00:44:38,927
it's anyone who works
with the federal government

900
00:44:39,010 --> 00:44:42,387
on these systems would've
been hit by this, so.

901
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:45,597
But you know, like, I mean, you remember
when there were a lot of state legislators

902
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,727
who were telling Elon that he
should get out of California

903
00:44:48,810 --> 00:44:50,767
and celebrating when he
brought all those jobs with him.

904
00:44:50,850 --> 00:44:54,187
So there's certain people who they look
at their responsibility to the state

905
00:44:54,270 --> 00:44:58,367
very differently than I think most
Californians or Americans would.

906
00:44:58,450 --> 00:45:01,197
- Last question, might be your favorite,

907
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,740
is Yoko Taro the right
person to reboot Evangelion?

908
00:45:05,740 --> 00:45:09,417
- I have a lot of trust
in Hideaki Anno and his judgment

909
00:45:09,500 --> 00:45:11,337
when it comes to the franchise.

910
00:45:11,420 --> 00:45:13,627
And if he believes it is the right choice,

911
00:45:13,710 --> 00:45:17,967
and he is, you know, notoriously
protective of that intellectual property.

912
00:45:18,050 --> 00:45:22,217
All the licenses of Evangelion have
to be personally approved by him.

913
00:45:22,300 --> 00:45:26,807
I think that if he is okay
with it, then so too must I.

914
00:45:26,890 --> 00:45:27,770
- You a NieR fan?

915
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,267
- No, not really.
- Palmer, thanks for the time.

916
00:45:32,350 --> 00:45:33,350
- Thank you so much.