WEBVTT 00:00:02.930 --> 00:00:07.020 him. - So you also like the side characters. You like the flavor 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:07.207 - Yeah, of course. 00:00:07.290 --> 00:00:10.697 - of the full cast. What are some of the favorites you've created? 00:00:10.780 --> 00:00:12.897 I'm sure the one you're currently working on- 00:00:12.980 --> 00:00:15.717 Nigel, that's a... You called him a side character. 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:19.777 - Well, he's not a protagonist. He's like a god, not a character. 00:00:19.860 --> 00:00:25.057 So he's not... Him, I'm enjoying. I love Dutch. 00:00:25.140 --> 00:00:29.440 You know, it was partly because we wrote a few lines for him 00:00:30.460 --> 00:00:33.860 for the first game, and the actor did such a 00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:37.877 such an amazing job that when he spoke, it just came to me 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:41.029 all of their backstory, which I'd been playing around with by that point anyway 00:00:41.112 --> 00:00:43.913 a little bit in my head. But I knew it was his bigger gangster from then. 00:00:43.997 --> 00:00:45.097 I sort of saw exactly who he 00:00:45.180 --> 00:00:50.277 was. And so that was... That felt like... He felt like a living character to me. 00:00:50.360 --> 00:00:53.042 - And we should say that Dutch is kind of like, 00:00:53.125 --> 00:00:55.357 maybe a little bit of a godlike figure- 00:00:55.440 --> 00:00:59.337 in both of the Red Dead Redemption games. He's the leader of the gang. 00:00:59.420 --> 00:01:03.290 And there's a father-son relationship with Dutch, with, uh, 00:01:03.940 --> 00:01:07.870 I mean, with Arthur, with John. There's a family feeling to the 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:11.857 gang. They explore all of those dynamics, and then the feeling of 00:01:11.940 --> 00:01:15.217 betrayal and Arthur facing tuberculosis. 00:01:15.300 --> 00:01:17.847 You're going against the family, going against the father- 00:01:17.930 --> 00:01:21.657 because he is transforming his sense of the 00:01:21.740 --> 00:01:24.677 world, of morality, of all those kinds of things. So all the kind of very 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:28.550 Shakespearean drama is right there. And Dutch is 00:01:29.380 --> 00:01:32.840 a prominent godlike figure through all of that. Also 00:01:32.980 --> 00:01:37.680 flawed himself. Also a man of good and evil in that, 00:01:38.620 --> 00:01:40.347 framework that they're operating under. 00:01:40.430 --> 00:01:43.117 - And he's just drowning in his ego at the end. 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:46.517 You know, his ego gets the better of him. I think he's a... But there was 00:01:46.600 --> 00:01:52.977 something flawed but beautiful in his idealism when he was younger, and that's 00:01:53.060 --> 00:01:56.140 mostly off-camera. And then just so you know, always been 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:00.997 as an individual, I've always been very susceptible to charming people. 00:02:01.080 --> 00:02:04.997 And he's charming. So I was kind of... I can see how people get captivated. 00:02:05.080 --> 00:02:09.010 by charming people. And the idea here was a very charming person, 00:02:09.580 --> 00:02:11.317 and the road's run out for him. 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:15.900 - I personally am afraid of how much I love human beings, 00:02:16.880 --> 00:02:21.077 and how susceptible I am to charm and charisma. 00:02:21.160 --> 00:02:24.097 'Cause it can cloud your judgment about human nature. 00:02:24.180 --> 00:02:28.060 - Completely. And that's what's happened with him. And it ended up 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:33.140 clouding his judgment about himself. He kind of fell for his own rubbish. 00:02:33.320 --> 00:02:36.557 - Yeah, but also it clouded Arthur's judgment. 00:02:36.640 --> 00:02:40.477 - Oh, completely. Arthur was completely, you know, platonically in 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:43.368 love with him. He was worshiping him. He'd given up his power to him. 00:02:43.452 --> 00:02:47.757 And then I think for Arthur, the journey is retaking that 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:51.737 power in the moment of dying. You know, and that's what the whole... that's why 00:02:51.820 --> 00:02:53.297 I thought that was really interesting. 00:02:53.380 --> 00:02:56.420 - Yeah, it's truly tragic for Arthur to be 00:02:57.620 --> 00:03:01.300 losing his identity, lifelong identity, and 00:03:01.460 --> 00:03:04.437 sense of belonging, and losing his life at the same 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:11.520 time. In facing mortality, he is realizing that he's not all of it has been a lie. 00:03:13.740 --> 00:03:16.617 - But he gets to do some... Well, it depends on what choices you make. 00:03:16.700 --> 00:03:22.417 But he gets to do some good. And so he gets his moment of redemption. 00:03:22.500 --> 00:03:23.927 - Just a little bit. But realizing... 00:03:24.010 --> 00:03:29.997 your whole life you've been living not a good life. You've been not a good man. 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:31.357 - Isn't that what we're all afraid of? 00:03:31.440 --> 00:03:34.840 - I guess it's never too late to change your ways. 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:35.167 - Hope not. I mean, that's... 00:03:35.250 --> 00:03:41.517 - So, the biggest, most important, primary question, central to the 00:03:41.600 --> 00:03:45.437 reason we're talking today, the number one question from the 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:51.700 Internet, it is so ridiculous, but I must ask. Have you seen Gavin? 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:56.797 Who is Gavin? So, for more context, there's a guy named Nigel in Red Dead 00:03:56.880 --> 00:04:00.677 Redemption 2 who's frantically searching for a mystery man named Gavin 00:04:00.760 --> 00:04:04.410 throughout the game. This has become one of the biggest mysteries amongst 00:04:04.940 --> 00:04:08.837 the interwebs, the RDR fan base. So, the theories 00:04:08.920 --> 00:04:12.880 include, theory one is it's a split personality disorder. Nigel 00:04:13.220 --> 00:04:20.220 himself is Gavin. So, the evidence for this theory is the letter that has some 00:04:20.780 --> 00:04:24.217 evidence that may be due to trauma, this split 00:04:24.300 --> 00:04:27.997 personality disorder was created. This Gavin was created inside Nigel's 00:04:28.080 --> 00:04:31.537 mind. Theory two is Gavin is dead, and Nigel's simply in denial. 00:04:31.620 --> 00:04:35.537 Theory three is that it's 00:04:35.620 --> 00:04:39.457 just a troll, and Rockstar intentionally created an unsolvable mystery 00:04:39.540 --> 00:04:42.910 to drive players crazy. I also heard theory four is 00:04:43.140 --> 00:04:46.657 Gavin is the Strange Man. So, there's this 00:04:46.740 --> 00:04:50.497 fascinating character, the Strange Man, this supernatural character that has a 00:04:50.580 --> 00:04:57.580 presence in RDR1 and a little bit in RDR2 also. But yeah. So which theory 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:04.617 is closest to the truth? - Not three or four. In my mind, somewhere 00:05:04.700 --> 00:05:08.537 between one and two. I just loved the way he 00:05:08.620 --> 00:05:12.397 shouted, "Gavin." It just amused me. So at some level, it 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:16.277 probably is trolling in that we didn't want it to be a totally clear mystery. 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:20.100 You wanted it to have a little bit of adventure to it. 00:05:21.400 --> 00:05:24.457 but it was meant to be... Without ever fully being 00:05:24.540 --> 00:05:28.177 explained that Gavin's not there anymore. Gavin's either gone 00:05:28.260 --> 00:05:32.057 home, Gavin's left him, Gavin's... And we were going to keep 00:05:32.140 --> 00:05:36.427 exploring that idea. That he was going to reappear in some way or other. 00:05:36.510 --> 00:05:43.510 - Did you have any idea how much imagination, excitement, and curiosity 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:46.960 that little interaction would inspire in people? 00:05:47.440 --> 00:05:51.320 - Yes and no. You could never know what people are going to find amusing 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:54.416 in these big games, and a lot of it comes down to acting as well. 00:05:54.499 --> 00:05:57.557 The guy was just funny when he said "Gavin." It was just funny. 00:05:57.640 --> 00:06:01.457 You know? But there was a ped in Red Dead Redemption one that everyone was obsessed 00:06:01.540 --> 00:06:05.140 by, and I really wasn't expecting that. So we try to put a few 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:09.037 characters in. I mean, Gavin was supposed to be amusing. I thought he was amusing. 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:11.813 But you never know what people are going to get obsessed by. 00:06:11.897 --> 00:06:13.117 There are other characters 00:06:13.200 --> 00:06:15.663 I think are funny, and people don't even notice them, you know, 00:06:15.747 --> 00:06:17.737 or they see them in a completely different way. 00:06:17.820 --> 00:06:19.837 - Did you have a part in writing the letter? 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:23.577 - Yeah. I can't remember if I wrote it or... Either I wrote it or Mike 00:06:23.660 --> 00:06:26.163 wrote it, or we both wrote it. I really can't remember, to be honest with you. 00:06:26.247 --> 00:06:27.517 But yeah, I certainly would have edited 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:30.196 it, and Mike might have written it, or I might have written it. 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:31.237 I really can't remember. 00:06:31.320 --> 00:06:34.060 - It's so fascinating because that little piece of writing— of course, 00:06:34.143 --> 00:06:35.787 you have thousands of pages- - Yeah. 00:06:35.870 --> 00:06:38.877 -...but that little piece of writing gets analyzed. 00:06:38.960 --> 00:06:42.837 - Oh, but we certainly talked about it in depth, and if Mike was here, 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:45.045 I'd ask him. He might remember. I can't really... 00:06:45.128 --> 00:06:46.757 And we do so many of those things. 00:06:46.840 --> 00:06:50.477 And I loved the use of letters in Red Dead to tell all these weird 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:54.497 backstories. And some became very clear and some were still 00:06:54.580 --> 00:06:58.477 a little kind of opaque. But I think the general vibe was there was no 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:02.457 Gavin. Either there was no Gavin or he'd long since left. So it's kind 00:07:02.540 --> 00:07:06.057 of a split personality, you know, and then we were going to over subsequent 00:07:06.140 --> 00:07:07.907 games provide more information. 00:07:07.990 --> 00:07:11.917 - So in some sense, you yourself don't quite know. You kind of have 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.830 an idea, like which way do you lean more, theory 00:07:15.980 --> 00:07:18.957 one or two? Is he dead, and Nigel's in 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:23.597 denial, or is there real communication going inside his head? 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.536 - No, Gavin existed. So it wasn't that he was a split personality, 00:07:25.619 --> 00:07:27.497 and the only thing we hadn't really decided was in a future game 00:07:27.580 --> 00:07:29.457 No, Gavin existed. So it wasn't that he was a split personality, 00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:31.457 and the only thing we hadn't really decided was in a future game 00:07:31.540 --> 00:07:35.377 were we going to reveal that Gavin was dead, or was Gavin going to turn up having 00:07:35.460 --> 00:07:38.997 long since abandoned this maniac. That was what we were still playing around 00:07:39.080 --> 00:07:41.577 with. I think the idea was that he was never going to meet... 00:07:41.660 --> 00:07:46.240 He was never going to meet Gavin in this game. 00:07:46.380 --> 00:07:50.077 - I mean, it's just fascinating because you have to think about all of that. 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:52.608 You have to write all of that. You have to have those discussions. 00:07:52.691 --> 00:07:54.117 You have to have those debates. 00:07:54.200 --> 00:07:55.737 - And it has to feel fresh. 00:07:55.820 --> 00:07:59.697 Like, what we've done before. Constantly looking as you do. You know, I 00:07:59.780 --> 00:08:02.941 think I've done, you know, somewhere between 15 and 20 of these games. 00:08:03.025 --> 00:08:06.357 Got to do stuff that's new. It can't repeat itself too much. 00:08:06.440 --> 00:08:10.257 - I mean, we also live in the age of the internet. Just, like, you 00:08:10.340 --> 00:08:17.140 realize there are millions of people worrying about where and who Gavin is. 00:08:17.960 --> 00:08:19.427 - Thank God. - It's like- - It's great, yeah. 00:08:19.510 --> 00:08:23.297 - It's fascinating that they're having... Is, think about people reading, like, 00:08:23.380 --> 00:08:26.977 James Joyce or something and thinking about the character, like, breaking apart 00:08:27.060 --> 00:08:30.657 Ulysses and thinking about, like, arguing about 00:08:30.740 --> 00:08:35.357 different interpretations of it. And to me, that in itself is also beautiful. 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:39.297 - Yeah. We want the side mysteries to be solvable up to a point, but you still 00:08:39.380 --> 00:08:41.317 want these discussions. - Yeah, the mystery. 00:08:41.400 --> 00:08:45.297 - You know, and you want as long as it feels tonally appropriate for 00:08:45.380 --> 00:08:48.417 this whole big sort of shaggy dog story experience you're 00:08:48.500 --> 00:08:52.420 making. Which Gavin was just about, and he was so weird, and he just 00:08:52.520 --> 00:08:55.560 was intrinsically... there was just something funny about an English person 00:08:55.644 --> 00:08:57.877 screaming, "Gavin." I don't know why. 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:01.777 - Yeah. Some of that humor, there's... there's certain in Red Dead 00:09:01.860 --> 00:09:04.767 Redemption there's humor, but there's a lot of it in Grand Theft Auto- 00:09:04.850 --> 00:09:07.500 ...and what... It's hard to put into words. 00:09:08.700 --> 00:09:12.080 why that's funny, why it becomes a meme, why it becomes viral, 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:14.097 'cause it's just funny. 00:09:14.180 --> 00:09:16.819 - Yeah, I know why I think it's funny, but you... what you can't... 00:09:16.902 --> 00:09:18.037 What I'm not good at doing at 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:21.937 least is going, "This thing will become really popular online and 00:09:22.020 --> 00:09:27.117 this other thing won't." You can create this bunch of, you know, fifty different 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:29.585 side things that people might get captivated by, 00:09:29.669 --> 00:09:32.047 and you just do not know what they're going to respond to. 00:09:32.130 --> 00:09:34.997 - How do you know when something's funny? Is it... you just feel it? 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:36.987 - I know what I think is funny. It's, you know, it makes- 00:09:37.070 --> 00:09:39.077 - You just Google it or you just- -...like just 'cause it's ridiculous as well. 00:09:39.160 --> 00:09:43.617 That was just... There's nothing funny about a dude shouting, "Gavin," a lot. 00:09:43.700 --> 00:09:45.647 He just said it in a funny way... I just thought it might be funny- 00:09:45.730 --> 00:09:48.137 It was great... and he just said it in such a funny way- 00:09:48.220 --> 00:09:51.970 ...and then it just became funny. Like, we often have those side characters 00:09:52.160 --> 00:09:54.788 and they're not that funny, and I think they're going to be hysterical, 00:09:54.871 --> 00:09:57.907 and then you put them in the game, and they're fine, but they're not amazing. 00:09:57.990 --> 00:09:59.637 That guy just brought that stuff to life. 00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:03.727 - Yeah. And his backstory too. I mean, Londoner and not... yeah, that... 00:10:03.810 --> 00:10:05.811 - Yeah, I think that was what... you know, just that it... 00:10:05.895 --> 00:10:07.917 there's something sometimes fun, you know, in... 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:11.637 an English person saying the name Gavin is quite funny. I don't know why. 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:15.417 - So, about the Strange Man, AKA, the Man in Black... Is there some 00:10:15.500 --> 00:10:18.491 element with Michael and the therapist in Grand Theft Auto V? Like, 00:10:18.574 --> 00:10:24.237 who is the Strange Man? - Well, the Strange Man was again... was, was, was 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:28.040 someone we came up with quickly. It... we made Red Dead 1, 00:10:28.640 --> 00:10:32.537 and we... well, were making Red Dead 1, and 00:10:32.620 --> 00:10:36.497 we'd made this... we felt quite compelling story and quite 00:10:36.580 --> 00:10:40.417 interesting open world. But... and we'd already made a bunch of 00:10:40.500 --> 00:10:42.476 Grand Theft Autos, obviously, but unfortunately, 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:44.437 we'd taken out the machine guns 'cause it was 00:10:44.520 --> 00:10:47.777 a cowboy game, apart from the big fixed position ones. And we'd taken out the 00:10:47.860 --> 00:10:51.477 cars, and we'd taken out the city and large numbers of pedestrians. So we 00:10:51.560 --> 00:10:53.827 essentially had a game about a dude riding a horse... 00:10:53.910 --> 00:10:57.737 ...around the desert. And it was quite... and it was quite boring. 00:10:57.820 --> 00:11:01.177 And so we then started filling it with content, and we filled it with these... 00:11:01.260 --> 00:11:04.606 and having to improvise. And we filled it with these things we call random events 00:11:04.690 --> 00:11:05.317 that would be 00:11:05.400 --> 00:11:09.177 these sort of motion-capture moments that you could interact with. And it... 00:11:09.260 --> 00:11:12.095 they were, they were... the designers did an amazing job with those. 00:11:12.179 --> 00:11:13.077 They were really fun. 00:11:13.160 --> 00:11:16.150 But there was not enough of them. And then we felt we needed more story 'cause 00:11:16.234 --> 00:11:20.540 the story was perhaps a little short. So we kind of quite late in development 00:11:21.500 --> 00:11:24.917 started putting in almost like these RPG-type content where you go and meet 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:27.740 someone. And the way we thought of them was they were like short stories. 00:11:27.824 --> 00:11:32.497 So you go and meet someone, they'd set you a slow problem, like go and collect me 15 00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:37.277 bunches of flowers. And when you came back, it would resolve your story. 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:39.464 And so then, you know, one would go, "Go get them for my bride," 00:11:39.547 --> 00:11:40.837 and you come back and the bride's dead. 00:11:40.920 --> 00:11:44.477 You know, to... We tried to make them like these short stories with a sting in the 00:11:44.560 --> 00:11:46.000 tail. And 00:11:47.500 --> 00:11:51.427 he came out... as I was trying to come up with ideas for those, as just this 00:11:51.510 --> 00:11:54.967 weird character. And then we built him a bit into the story, 00:11:55.050 --> 00:11:58.267 where he would unlock as you worked your way through and be a 00:11:58.350 --> 00:12:02.790 commentary on what you were doing. So he was meant to be a kind of 00:12:04.450 --> 00:12:06.490 manifestation of your, 00:12:08.030 --> 00:12:11.927 you know, shadow, your karma, the devil, somewhere, you know, just 00:12:12.010 --> 00:12:16.590 saw the world. And then we built out his backstory over time 00:12:17.610 --> 00:12:19.083 and decided, you know... And so in Red Dead 2, 00:12:19.167 --> 00:12:20.447 you could interact with him again and... 00:12:20.530 --> 00:12:23.367 or not really interact with him. But he was there and he was meant to be, 00:12:23.450 --> 00:12:28.167 you know, something I suppose any creative is scared of, an artist who's kind of 00:12:28.250 --> 00:12:32.107 sold his soul to the devil. And that slowly revealed itself. 00:12:32.190 --> 00:12:35.467 - There is a connection between the main character and 00:12:35.550 --> 00:12:38.727 the... Is it like a Jungian shadow type of situation? 00:12:38.810 --> 00:12:42.727 - Well, it's sort of, because he knows what you're up to. The connection is... 00:12:42.810 --> 00:12:46.607 what's never really made clear is, does he know this about everybody? 00:12:46.690 --> 00:12:50.427 Like, is he following you, or is he able, because of the pact he's made 00:12:50.510 --> 00:12:54.307 with evil forces, able to do this for everybody? I don't think we 00:12:54.390 --> 00:12:57.587 necessarily ever clarify that. He's certainly able to do it for you. 00:12:57.670 --> 00:13:03.150 - I mean, there's, sort of narrative-wise, there are techniques to reveal a kind of 00:13:04.230 --> 00:13:08.167 self-reflection analysis of the main character's thoughts. That's why I 00:13:08.250 --> 00:13:11.907 brought up the therapist with Michael. That was a really powerful, 00:13:11.990 --> 00:13:15.867 interesting thing to do in a video game. Like, I, I 00:13:15.950 --> 00:13:19.827 don't think I've seen... That's such a cool... I mean, there's a Sopranos element 00:13:19.910 --> 00:13:21.307 there, with the therapist. - A little bit, yeah. 00:13:21.390 --> 00:13:25.790 - I really love an opportunity for a character to just 00:13:26.630 --> 00:13:28.257 self-reflect through that technique. 00:13:28.340 --> 00:13:30.307 - But it also changed depending on what you'd done. 00:13:30.390 --> 00:13:30.567 - Yes. 00:13:30.650 --> 00:13:34.407 - So it was, it was sort of slightly... It wasn't as interactive as it could be, 00:13:34.490 --> 00:13:38.227 but it was slightly interactive, or slightly responsive to what you'd done. 00:13:38.310 --> 00:13:41.526 So it felt it was still valid video game content, 'cause it was living, 00:13:41.609 --> 00:13:42.287 up to a point. 00:13:42.370 --> 00:13:45.119 And I just thought the character, Dr. Friedlander, was just funny, 00:13:45.202 --> 00:13:45.987 'cause he was awful. 00:13:46.070 --> 00:13:49.987 So it was like LA. You're in therapy. It's very LA. But it's also very LA, he 00:13:50.070 --> 00:13:51.747 wants to write a book and betray you. 00:13:51.830 --> 00:13:55.707 Which felt like a good, a good twist. It felt like a Grand Theft Auto 00:13:55.790 --> 00:14:02.347 therapist. But just like the idea of making the player in a game, 00:14:02.430 --> 00:14:06.367 and games are intrinsically kind of physical, and, you know, you... 00:14:06.450 --> 00:14:09.817 you walk, you punch things, you run around, you drive cars, you shoot people, 00:14:09.900 --> 00:14:13.667 whatever. There are these kind of physical fantasies. Trying to put them into a 00:14:13.750 --> 00:14:17.207 slightly more reflective or metaphysical state for a moment, I think can be really 00:14:17.290 --> 00:14:18.123 fun.