1 00:00:02,930 --> 00:00:07,020 him. - So you also like the side characters. You like the flavor 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:07,207 - Yeah, of course. 3 00:00:07,290 --> 00:00:10,697 - of the full cast. What are some of the favorites you've created? 4 00:00:10,780 --> 00:00:12,897 I'm sure the one you're currently working on- 5 00:00:12,980 --> 00:00:15,717 Nigel, that's a... You called him a side character. 6 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,777 - Well, he's not a protagonist. He's like a god, not a character. 7 00:00:19,860 --> 00:00:25,057 So he's not... Him, I'm enjoying. I love Dutch. 8 00:00:25,140 --> 00:00:29,440 You know, it was partly because we wrote a few lines for him 9 00:00:30,460 --> 00:00:33,860 for the first game, and the actor did such a 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,877 such an amazing job that when he spoke, it just came to me 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,029 all of their backstory, which I'd been playing around with by that point anyway 12 00:00:41,112 --> 00:00:43,913 a little bit in my head. But I knew it was his bigger gangster from then. 13 00:00:43,997 --> 00:00:45,097 I sort of saw exactly who he 14 00:00:45,180 --> 00:00:50,277 was. And so that was... That felt like... He felt like a living character to me. 15 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,042 - And we should say that Dutch is kind of like, 16 00:00:53,125 --> 00:00:55,357 maybe a little bit of a godlike figure- 17 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,337 in both of the Red Dead Redemption games. He's the leader of the gang. 18 00:00:59,420 --> 00:01:03,290 And there's a father-son relationship with Dutch, with, uh, 19 00:01:03,940 --> 00:01:07,870 I mean, with Arthur, with John. There's a family feeling to the 20 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:11,857 gang. They explore all of those dynamics, and then the feeling of 21 00:01:11,940 --> 00:01:15,217 betrayal and Arthur facing tuberculosis. 22 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:17,847 You're going against the family, going against the father- 23 00:01:17,930 --> 00:01:21,657 because he is transforming his sense of the 24 00:01:21,740 --> 00:01:24,677 world, of morality, of all those kinds of things. So all the kind of very 25 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,550 Shakespearean drama is right there. And Dutch is 26 00:01:29,380 --> 00:01:32,840 a prominent godlike figure through all of that. Also 27 00:01:32,980 --> 00:01:37,680 flawed himself. Also a man of good and evil in that, 28 00:01:38,620 --> 00:01:40,347 framework that they're operating under. 29 00:01:40,430 --> 00:01:43,117 - And he's just drowning in his ego at the end. 30 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,517 You know, his ego gets the better of him. I think he's a... But there was 31 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:52,977 something flawed but beautiful in his idealism when he was younger, and that's 32 00:01:53,060 --> 00:01:56,140 mostly off-camera. And then just so you know, always been 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,997 as an individual, I've always been very susceptible to charming people. 34 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,997 And he's charming. So I was kind of... I can see how people get captivated. 35 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:09,010 by charming people. And the idea here was a very charming person, 36 00:02:09,580 --> 00:02:11,317 and the road's run out for him. 37 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,900 - I personally am afraid of how much I love human beings, 38 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,077 and how susceptible I am to charm and charisma. 39 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,097 'Cause it can cloud your judgment about human nature. 40 00:02:24,180 --> 00:02:28,060 - Completely. And that's what's happened with him. And it ended up 41 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:33,140 clouding his judgment about himself. He kind of fell for his own rubbish. 42 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,557 - Yeah, but also it clouded Arthur's judgment. 43 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:40,477 - Oh, completely. Arthur was completely, you know, platonically in 44 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,368 love with him. He was worshiping him. He'd given up his power to him. 45 00:02:43,452 --> 00:02:47,757 And then I think for Arthur, the journey is retaking that 46 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,737 power in the moment of dying. You know, and that's what the whole... that's why 47 00:02:51,820 --> 00:02:53,297 I thought that was really interesting. 48 00:02:53,380 --> 00:02:56,420 - Yeah, it's truly tragic for Arthur to be 49 00:02:57,620 --> 00:03:01,300 losing his identity, lifelong identity, and 50 00:03:01,460 --> 00:03:04,437 sense of belonging, and losing his life at the same 51 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:11,520 time. In facing mortality, he is realizing that he's not all of it has been a lie. 52 00:03:13,740 --> 00:03:16,617 - But he gets to do some... Well, it depends on what choices you make. 53 00:03:16,700 --> 00:03:22,417 But he gets to do some good. And so he gets his moment of redemption. 54 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:23,927 - Just a little bit. But realizing... 55 00:03:24,010 --> 00:03:29,997 your whole life you've been living not a good life. You've been not a good man. 56 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:31,357 - Isn't that what we're all afraid of? 57 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,840 - I guess it's never too late to change your ways. 58 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:35,167 - Hope not. I mean, that's... 59 00:03:35,250 --> 00:03:41,517 - So, the biggest, most important, primary question, central to the 60 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,437 reason we're talking today, the number one question from the 61 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:51,700 Internet, it is so ridiculous, but I must ask. Have you seen Gavin? 62 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,797 Who is Gavin? So, for more context, there's a guy named Nigel in Red Dead 63 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,677 Redemption 2 who's frantically searching for a mystery man named Gavin 64 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,410 throughout the game. This has become one of the biggest mysteries amongst 65 00:04:04,940 --> 00:04:08,837 the interwebs, the RDR fan base. So, the theories 66 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,880 include, theory one is it's a split personality disorder. Nigel 67 00:04:13,220 --> 00:04:20,220 himself is Gavin. So, the evidence for this theory is the letter that has some 68 00:04:20,780 --> 00:04:24,217 evidence that may be due to trauma, this split 69 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:27,997 personality disorder was created. This Gavin was created inside Nigel's 70 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,537 mind. Theory two is Gavin is dead, and Nigel's simply in denial. 71 00:04:31,620 --> 00:04:35,537 Theory three is that it's 72 00:04:35,620 --> 00:04:39,457 just a troll, and Rockstar intentionally created an unsolvable mystery 73 00:04:39,540 --> 00:04:42,910 to drive players crazy. I also heard theory four is 74 00:04:43,140 --> 00:04:46,657 Gavin is the Strange Man. So, there's this 75 00:04:46,740 --> 00:04:50,497 fascinating character, the Strange Man, this supernatural character that has a 76 00:04:50,580 --> 00:04:57,580 presence in RDR1 and a little bit in RDR2 also. But yeah. So which theory 77 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:04,617 is closest to the truth? - Not three or four. In my mind, somewhere 78 00:05:04,700 --> 00:05:08,537 between one and two. I just loved the way he 79 00:05:08,620 --> 00:05:12,397 shouted, "Gavin." It just amused me. So at some level, it 80 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,277 probably is trolling in that we didn't want it to be a totally clear mystery. 81 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,100 You wanted it to have a little bit of adventure to it. 82 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,457 but it was meant to be... Without ever fully being 83 00:05:24,540 --> 00:05:28,177 explained that Gavin's not there anymore. Gavin's either gone 84 00:05:28,260 --> 00:05:32,057 home, Gavin's left him, Gavin's... And we were going to keep 85 00:05:32,140 --> 00:05:36,427 exploring that idea. That he was going to reappear in some way or other. 86 00:05:36,510 --> 00:05:43,510 - Did you have any idea how much imagination, excitement, and curiosity 87 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,960 that little interaction would inspire in people? 88 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,320 - Yes and no. You could never know what people are going to find amusing 89 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,416 in these big games, and a lot of it comes down to acting as well. 90 00:05:54,499 --> 00:05:57,557 The guy was just funny when he said "Gavin." It was just funny. 91 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,457 You know? But there was a ped in Red Dead Redemption one that everyone was obsessed 92 00:06:01,540 --> 00:06:05,140 by, and I really wasn't expecting that. So we try to put a few 93 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,037 characters in. I mean, Gavin was supposed to be amusing. I thought he was amusing. 94 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,813 But you never know what people are going to get obsessed by. 95 00:06:11,897 --> 00:06:13,117 There are other characters 96 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,663 I think are funny, and people don't even notice them, you know, 97 00:06:15,747 --> 00:06:17,737 or they see them in a completely different way. 98 00:06:17,820 --> 00:06:19,837 - Did you have a part in writing the letter? 99 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,577 - Yeah. I can't remember if I wrote it or... Either I wrote it or Mike 100 00:06:23,660 --> 00:06:26,163 wrote it, or we both wrote it. I really can't remember, to be honest with you. 101 00:06:26,247 --> 00:06:27,517 But yeah, I certainly would have edited 102 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,196 it, and Mike might have written it, or I might have written it. 103 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:31,237 I really can't remember. 104 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,060 - It's so fascinating because that little piece of writing— of course, 105 00:06:34,143 --> 00:06:35,787 you have thousands of pages- - Yeah. 106 00:06:35,870 --> 00:06:38,877 -...but that little piece of writing gets analyzed. 107 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,837 - Oh, but we certainly talked about it in depth, and if Mike was here, 108 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,045 I'd ask him. He might remember. I can't really... 109 00:06:45,128 --> 00:06:46,757 And we do so many of those things. 110 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:50,477 And I loved the use of letters in Red Dead to tell all these weird 111 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,497 backstories. And some became very clear and some were still 112 00:06:54,580 --> 00:06:58,477 a little kind of opaque. But I think the general vibe was there was no 113 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,457 Gavin. Either there was no Gavin or he'd long since left. So it's kind 114 00:07:02,540 --> 00:07:06,057 of a split personality, you know, and then we were going to over subsequent 115 00:07:06,140 --> 00:07:07,907 games provide more information. 116 00:07:07,990 --> 00:07:11,917 - So in some sense, you yourself don't quite know. You kind of have 117 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,830 an idea, like which way do you lean more, theory 118 00:07:15,980 --> 00:07:18,957 one or two? Is he dead, and Nigel's in 119 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,597 denial, or is there real communication going inside his head? 120 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,536 - No, Gavin existed. So it wasn't that he was a split personality, 121 00:07:25,619 --> 00:07:27,497 and the only thing we hadn't really decided was in a future game 122 00:07:27,580 --> 00:07:29,457 No, Gavin existed. So it wasn't that he was a split personality, 123 00:07:29,540 --> 00:07:31,457 and the only thing we hadn't really decided was in a future game 124 00:07:31,540 --> 00:07:35,377 were we going to reveal that Gavin was dead, or was Gavin going to turn up having 125 00:07:35,460 --> 00:07:38,997 long since abandoned this maniac. That was what we were still playing around 126 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,577 with. I think the idea was that he was never going to meet... 127 00:07:41,660 --> 00:07:46,240 He was never going to meet Gavin in this game. 128 00:07:46,380 --> 00:07:50,077 - I mean, it's just fascinating because you have to think about all of that. 129 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,608 You have to write all of that. You have to have those discussions. 130 00:07:52,691 --> 00:07:54,117 You have to have those debates. 131 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:55,737 - And it has to feel fresh. 132 00:07:55,820 --> 00:07:59,697 Like, what we've done before. Constantly looking as you do. You know, I 133 00:07:59,780 --> 00:08:02,941 think I've done, you know, somewhere between 15 and 20 of these games. 134 00:08:03,025 --> 00:08:06,357 Got to do stuff that's new. It can't repeat itself too much. 135 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,257 - I mean, we also live in the age of the internet. Just, like, you 136 00:08:10,340 --> 00:08:17,140 realize there are millions of people worrying about where and who Gavin is. 137 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:19,427 - Thank God. - It's like- - It's great, yeah. 138 00:08:19,510 --> 00:08:23,297 - It's fascinating that they're having... Is, think about people reading, like, 139 00:08:23,380 --> 00:08:26,977 James Joyce or something and thinking about the character, like, breaking apart 140 00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:30,657 Ulysses and thinking about, like, arguing about 141 00:08:30,740 --> 00:08:35,357 different interpretations of it. And to me, that in itself is also beautiful. 142 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,297 - Yeah. We want the side mysteries to be solvable up to a point, but you still 143 00:08:39,380 --> 00:08:41,317 want these discussions. - Yeah, the mystery. 144 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,297 - You know, and you want as long as it feels tonally appropriate for 145 00:08:45,380 --> 00:08:48,417 this whole big sort of shaggy dog story experience you're 146 00:08:48,500 --> 00:08:52,420 making. Which Gavin was just about, and he was so weird, and he just 147 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,560 was intrinsically... there was just something funny about an English person 148 00:08:55,644 --> 00:08:57,877 screaming, "Gavin." I don't know why. 149 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,777 - Yeah. Some of that humor, there's... there's certain in Red Dead 150 00:09:01,860 --> 00:09:04,767 Redemption there's humor, but there's a lot of it in Grand Theft Auto- 151 00:09:04,850 --> 00:09:07,500 ...and what... It's hard to put into words. 152 00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:12,080 why that's funny, why it becomes a meme, why it becomes viral, 153 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,097 'cause it's just funny. 154 00:09:14,180 --> 00:09:16,819 - Yeah, I know why I think it's funny, but you... what you can't... 155 00:09:16,902 --> 00:09:18,037 What I'm not good at doing at 156 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,937 least is going, "This thing will become really popular online and 157 00:09:22,020 --> 00:09:27,117 this other thing won't." You can create this bunch of, you know, fifty different 158 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,585 side things that people might get captivated by, 159 00:09:29,669 --> 00:09:32,047 and you just do not know what they're going to respond to. 160 00:09:32,130 --> 00:09:34,997 - How do you know when something's funny? Is it... you just feel it? 161 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:36,987 - I know what I think is funny. It's, you know, it makes- 162 00:09:37,070 --> 00:09:39,077 - You just Google it or you just- -...like just 'cause it's ridiculous as well. 163 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,617 That was just... There's nothing funny about a dude shouting, "Gavin," a lot. 164 00:09:43,700 --> 00:09:45,647 He just said it in a funny way... I just thought it might be funny- 165 00:09:45,730 --> 00:09:48,137 It was great... and he just said it in such a funny way- 166 00:09:48,220 --> 00:09:51,970 ...and then it just became funny. Like, we often have those side characters 167 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,788 and they're not that funny, and I think they're going to be hysterical, 168 00:09:54,871 --> 00:09:57,907 and then you put them in the game, and they're fine, but they're not amazing. 169 00:09:57,990 --> 00:09:59,637 That guy just brought that stuff to life. 170 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,727 - Yeah. And his backstory too. I mean, Londoner and not... yeah, that... 171 00:10:03,810 --> 00:10:05,811 - Yeah, I think that was what... you know, just that it... 172 00:10:05,895 --> 00:10:07,917 there's something sometimes fun, you know, in... 173 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,637 an English person saying the name Gavin is quite funny. I don't know why. 174 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,417 - So, about the Strange Man, AKA, the Man in Black... Is there some 175 00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:18,491 element with Michael and the therapist in Grand Theft Auto V? Like, 176 00:10:18,574 --> 00:10:24,237 who is the Strange Man? - Well, the Strange Man was again... was, was, was 177 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,040 someone we came up with quickly. It... we made Red Dead 1, 178 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,537 and we... well, were making Red Dead 1, and 179 00:10:32,620 --> 00:10:36,497 we'd made this... we felt quite compelling story and quite 180 00:10:36,580 --> 00:10:40,417 interesting open world. But... and we'd already made a bunch of 181 00:10:40,500 --> 00:10:42,476 Grand Theft Autos, obviously, but unfortunately, 182 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,437 we'd taken out the machine guns 'cause it was 183 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,777 a cowboy game, apart from the big fixed position ones. And we'd taken out the 184 00:10:47,860 --> 00:10:51,477 cars, and we'd taken out the city and large numbers of pedestrians. So we 185 00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:53,827 essentially had a game about a dude riding a horse... 186 00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:57,737 ...around the desert. And it was quite... and it was quite boring. 187 00:10:57,820 --> 00:11:01,177 And so we then started filling it with content, and we filled it with these... 188 00:11:01,260 --> 00:11:04,606 and having to improvise. And we filled it with these things we call random events 189 00:11:04,690 --> 00:11:05,317 that would be 190 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,177 these sort of motion-capture moments that you could interact with. And it... 191 00:11:09,260 --> 00:11:12,095 they were, they were... the designers did an amazing job with those. 192 00:11:12,179 --> 00:11:13,077 They were really fun. 193 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,150 But there was not enough of them. And then we felt we needed more story 'cause 194 00:11:16,234 --> 00:11:20,540 the story was perhaps a little short. So we kind of quite late in development 195 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:24,917 started putting in almost like these RPG-type content where you go and meet 196 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,740 someone. And the way we thought of them was they were like short stories. 197 00:11:27,824 --> 00:11:32,497 So you go and meet someone, they'd set you a slow problem, like go and collect me 15 198 00:11:32,580 --> 00:11:37,277 bunches of flowers. And when you came back, it would resolve your story. 199 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,464 And so then, you know, one would go, "Go get them for my bride," 200 00:11:39,547 --> 00:11:40,837 and you come back and the bride's dead. 201 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,477 You know, to... We tried to make them like these short stories with a sting in the 202 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:46,000 tail. And 203 00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:51,427 he came out... as I was trying to come up with ideas for those, as just this 204 00:11:51,510 --> 00:11:54,967 weird character. And then we built him a bit into the story, 205 00:11:55,050 --> 00:11:58,267 where he would unlock as you worked your way through and be a 206 00:11:58,350 --> 00:12:02,790 commentary on what you were doing. So he was meant to be a kind of 207 00:12:04,450 --> 00:12:06,490 manifestation of your, 208 00:12:08,030 --> 00:12:11,927 you know, shadow, your karma, the devil, somewhere, you know, just 209 00:12:12,010 --> 00:12:16,590 saw the world. And then we built out his backstory over time 210 00:12:17,610 --> 00:12:19,083 and decided, you know... And so in Red Dead 2, 211 00:12:19,167 --> 00:12:20,447 you could interact with him again and... 212 00:12:20,530 --> 00:12:23,367 or not really interact with him. But he was there and he was meant to be, 213 00:12:23,450 --> 00:12:28,167 you know, something I suppose any creative is scared of, an artist who's kind of 214 00:12:28,250 --> 00:12:32,107 sold his soul to the devil. And that slowly revealed itself. 215 00:12:32,190 --> 00:12:35,467 - There is a connection between the main character and 216 00:12:35,550 --> 00:12:38,727 the... Is it like a Jungian shadow type of situation? 217 00:12:38,810 --> 00:12:42,727 - Well, it's sort of, because he knows what you're up to. The connection is... 218 00:12:42,810 --> 00:12:46,607 what's never really made clear is, does he know this about everybody? 219 00:12:46,690 --> 00:12:50,427 Like, is he following you, or is he able, because of the pact he's made 220 00:12:50,510 --> 00:12:54,307 with evil forces, able to do this for everybody? I don't think we 221 00:12:54,390 --> 00:12:57,587 necessarily ever clarify that. He's certainly able to do it for you. 222 00:12:57,670 --> 00:13:03,150 - I mean, there's, sort of narrative-wise, there are techniques to reveal a kind of 223 00:13:04,230 --> 00:13:08,167 self-reflection analysis of the main character's thoughts. That's why I 224 00:13:08,250 --> 00:13:11,907 brought up the therapist with Michael. That was a really powerful, 225 00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:15,867 interesting thing to do in a video game. Like, I, I 226 00:13:15,950 --> 00:13:19,827 don't think I've seen... That's such a cool... I mean, there's a Sopranos element 227 00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:21,307 there, with the therapist. - A little bit, yeah. 228 00:13:21,390 --> 00:13:25,790 - I really love an opportunity for a character to just 229 00:13:26,630 --> 00:13:28,257 self-reflect through that technique. 230 00:13:28,340 --> 00:13:30,307 - But it also changed depending on what you'd done. 231 00:13:30,390 --> 00:13:30,567 - Yes. 232 00:13:30,650 --> 00:13:34,407 - So it was, it was sort of slightly... It wasn't as interactive as it could be, 233 00:13:34,490 --> 00:13:38,227 but it was slightly interactive, or slightly responsive to what you'd done. 234 00:13:38,310 --> 00:13:41,526 So it felt it was still valid video game content, 'cause it was living, 235 00:13:41,609 --> 00:13:42,287 up to a point. 236 00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:45,119 And I just thought the character, Dr. Friedlander, was just funny, 237 00:13:45,202 --> 00:13:45,987 'cause he was awful. 238 00:13:46,070 --> 00:13:49,987 So it was like LA. You're in therapy. It's very LA. But it's also very LA, he 239 00:13:50,070 --> 00:13:51,747 wants to write a book and betray you. 240 00:13:51,830 --> 00:13:55,707 Which felt like a good, a good twist. It felt like a Grand Theft Auto 241 00:13:55,790 --> 00:14:02,347 therapist. But just like the idea of making the player in a game, 242 00:14:02,430 --> 00:14:06,367 and games are intrinsically kind of physical, and, you know, you... 243 00:14:06,450 --> 00:14:09,817 you walk, you punch things, you run around, you drive cars, you shoot people, 244 00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:13,667 whatever. There are these kind of physical fantasies. Trying to put them into a 245 00:14:13,750 --> 00:14:17,207 slightly more reflective or metaphysical state for a moment, I think can be really 246 00:14:17,290 --> 00:14:18,123 fun.