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The Gerogan experience. Anyway, so Kev,
the great Kevin O'Leary, was already a

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great investor and he's a great actor,
it turns out. And he's building this

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giant data center. Did you see
Tucker's discussion with him?

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>> I haven't seen it. It's kind
of interesting. Might might be good to

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watch. Let's watch it. Let's see if we
can pull a clip of it. Because Tucker

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was essentially saying, like, how did you

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get this past? And they said they voted
on it and it turns out it's like three

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representatives in Utah.

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And Tucker's argument is like how

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difficult would it be to subvert the

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you know, get a hold of three of these
representatives and get them to vote on

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this thing that's not good for the people.
They He's saying you're going to

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be taking American jobs with this thing
and this is like Tucker's position.

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Right. You find any clips on it?

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>> Well, I did I found the whole thing
first. This is 10 minutes long, but

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Well, let's just play a little bit of it.

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>> If you want I'll give you a quick while
we're looking for it or Yeah, no, let's

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slap on some headphones. Let's listen
to this thing. the difference. There's a

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state budget Hey, that's no problem.

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That's no problem. I can build that in
Texas. I can build that in Jacksonville,

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Mississippi. There But but why if it's
such a good business would you be asking

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taxpayers to help pay for it without
giving them equity in the company? Are

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you giving taxpayers shares? No,
the the investors get the shares,

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but here's why they would do it.

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>> Why would the taxpayers have to I mean,
look, if you want to start a business,

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why why am I as a taxpayer forced to pay
for it, your business? I don't I don't

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get it. Well, let's forget about data
centers. Let's go any manufacturing.

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Let's say you're going to build um

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an aluminum sheet manufacturing facility.
You go to the government there

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and say, "Look, this is going
to be a huge CapEx expect you know,

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a huge CapEx expenditure. I'm going to

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hire 2,000 people. I'm going to build a

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community center. I'm going to pay a lot
of tax on the profits in your state when

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I sell the aluminum and I'm going to hire
all these people who they will also

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pay tax. And we will build a school
because our workers need a need a

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school. And and and and and. What can
you give me to incentivize me versus the

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the state right beside you, which is
willing to give me an incentive package?

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>> No, no, I understand I understand that
you're you're gaming a system in place.

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You didn't come up with this,
but I'm just trying to understand

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So, the trade typically is jobs, okay?

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But these projects don't actually >>
well, no, no, it's also jobs and taxes

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cuz you're going to >>
And taxes? Yeah. But

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but then you're getting a tax break.
So, that doesn't really make any sense

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>> up front you're getting Tucker, welcome
to America, buddy. This is how it's gone

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on for 200 years. Okay, well, I don't
know. Lots of bad things go on for a

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while. I'm just but I think at some
point it's worth assessing like why are

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we doing this? So, on the job question
>> You're doing it because there's a

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competition. Well, I run a I run
a couple of businesses and we're not

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getting any tax breaks. I think they're
every bit as virtuous as data centers,

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but I'm not availing myself of that and
no one's offered and I wouldn't take it

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anyway because it's not the job
of taxpayers to subsidize a private

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business. It's a fair It's a fair It's a

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fair comment, but my job is to create a

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data center, create 2,000 jobs for

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long-term and 10,000 manufacturing at

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the beginning or a construction. And

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I'm obviously looking at at multiple
sites and this won't be the last one I

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build. I have >> May I May
I May I ask 2,000 jobs? Okay,

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so relative to the size the physical

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size of the project, which as you noted

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is multiple times the size of Manhattan,

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and the power draw at peak,

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this data center, your projections, will

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consume about as much energy as New York

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City does, but New York City
provides almost 5 million jobs.

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And this project by your own description

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would provide about 2,000 jobs.

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I I I don't see the trade >> that you
definitely got that calculation

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wrong. By building a data center that

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trains AI that provides productivity to

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the entire nation, we create millions of

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jobs, high-paying jobs. So, AI is going

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to create jobs? I thought it
was going to eliminate jobs

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>> just think about
the new technologies we

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don't even know yet
that are going to be No.

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I think we get it. That was a good cross
section of the of the debate. Yeah, I

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think we got it. A lot of it was in there.

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So, what is your take on that? I have
many takes on that. Okay, I know. I saw

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you writing things down, so that's why
I'm asking you. I'm ready to go. So,

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start a couple things. So, he started
out talking about tax breaks for

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businesses. I think that's a completely
legitimate debate topic. I think he's

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talking that one Tucker's right in the
sense of some kinds of businesses get

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tax breaks, others don't. Right, that's
a completely fair thing. I I I could

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argue both sides of that of that one.

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I'll say that that that number one.

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Number two, the energy thing I think
is a little bit of a red herring at this

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point cuz the the sort of claim you
know, the claim is these data centers

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are going to they're going to use so
much energy and then they're going to

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cause local energy bills, you know, to
skyrocket. And I think it is very bad by

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the way when that happens. I think if
a data center comes in, it should bring

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its own energy with it or pay
pay for the energy separately.

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There is a new federal policy now
exactly along those lines that I think

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everybody's doing in practice, which
is to to pair to if if you do a data

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center, you bring your own energy.

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So, I think that can
be dealt with. And then

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and then both of those connect to what
I think is the big underlying issue which

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they were kind of dancing around, which
is what we talked about earlier with the

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rebuilding of LA, which is can you
build anything in America anymore?

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Can you? Can you build a factory? Can
you build a chip plant? Can you build a

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power plant? Can you build
a refinery? Can you build

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a pipeline? Can you build housing?
And you know, one of the common themes in

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American life for the last 30 years
is the answer to those questions is

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generally no. You can't do
any of those things, right? So,

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take as an example
Silicon Valley, right? So,

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all the chips are made in Taiwan. Well,
40 years ago all the chips were made in

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California. Why are all
the chips made in Taiwan?

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Because in California the regulations
got set so that you couldn't make chips

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in California anymore. So, now they're
all made in Taiwan and now we have to

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figure out what to do
if China invades Taiwan.

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That's really all it is?
It's just regulations?

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>> yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, all the all
the all the chip plants used to be in

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California. And what what regulations
specifically stopped them from being

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able to manufacture in California?

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>> Environmental. Environmental.

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>> Environmental. Yes. And you you have
these you and you have these you have

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specific issues on on environmental
impact on things and then you have these

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umbrella things with things like NEPA
um that basically essentially banned

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everything um in in much of the country.

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>> And what was the negative consequences
of them in terms of the environment?

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>> there there there are it's it's like
any of these things. There's tons of there

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there's always some there's always some
substance to it. There's always some

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risk of I you know it's probably it's
probably something chemical leakage or

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something like that. If it's if the
chemicals aren't properly managed um and

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then there's whatever other kind
of superheated claims are around that.

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Let me give you the ultimate story on
that which goes goes to the power thing.

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Um okay, so for the last you know,
50 years you know, we've we've we've been

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worried about global warming climate
change. And specifically with that we've

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been worried about carbon emissions.
It turns out there is a form of energy

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which basically is unlimited energy
that's that's carbon free. That

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generates no carbon at all
and it's nuclear power.

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Um the the nuclear power was considered
such an attractive way to generate

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energy in the in the in the 50s and 60s
that a whole bunch of you know, big

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nuclear plants got built. By the way,
France ran for a long time almost

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entirely on nuclear power. Japan ran
for a long time almost entirely on nuclear

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power. But we used to we used to have
nuclear plants you know, getting getting

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built in the US.
Um the environmental movement started.

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They said they don't you know, they
don't want you know, oil and gas fossil

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fuels. Um and so the Nixon administration
around the time you and I were born

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uh created something called project
independence and project independence

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was to build a thousand new civilian
nuclear power plants in the US by the

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year 2000. And the idea was a thousand
nuclear power plants will power the entire

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United States with totally clean energy.

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By the way, that's also the energy
electricity you need to be able to cut

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over to electric vehicles which could
have happened a lot sooner. Um and then

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and then it's got it's called project
independence cuz it means the US won't

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have to be involved in the Middle East
anymore, cuz we won't need the oil.

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Right? And and this was a response
to the the growing energy crisis in the

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1970s at the time.
Um how many nuclear power plants were

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built out of the thousand?
Round us to zero.

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Uh they never got built because
the Nixon administration also created the

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Nuclear Regulatory Commission, which
made it its purpose in life is to stop

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nuclear power plants from getting built.

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And the Nuclear Regulatory Commission
did not approve a new nuclear plant

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design for 40 years. Now,
is this because of Three Mile Island?

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>> So then Three Mile This is a great
example. So then Three Mile Island hits.

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And Three Mile Island in the in for
you know, the it's it's it's a it

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was a meltdown of a nuclear plant
civilian nuclear plant on the East

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Coast, and it becomes a mega story. And
this is like a this is in the middle of

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the this is in the '70s when people
are freaking out about all, you know,

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Vietnam and the oil shock
and like all these issues

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and recession, depression. And then
on top of that, this nuclear power plant

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melts down. Everybody freaks out.

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Complete panic. Um how many people died
from Three Mile Island melting down?

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One? Zero. Zero? >> Zero. Zero deaths.

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Zero deaths.
And the total >> got ill, though?

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>> No. I don't I I I don't >>
Is there residual cancer deaths?

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>> there's any evidence of any uh any
resulting illness. Cuz it just like it

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just melts down, it just stays there.
So like if you walk into an abandoned

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nuclear power plant that's melted down
that hasn't been contained, you're going

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to be in trouble. But like if you're
just like if you're just like if you're

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Like another example is Fukushima.
I think that they're literally have an

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argument of like whether it's zero
or one uh people who have been affected by

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Fukushima in Japan, which was the you
know, the other affected affected Yeah,

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yeah, yeah. Well, this is people have
I forget who did it, but somebody went

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shortly after Fukushima and just made
a point one of the somebody one of the

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Americans who works on this stuff went
over there and he just like went around

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and started eating everything, you know,
all the edible plants and drinking the

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ground water. Like it it's
it These are These are not

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In fact, Yeah, but the consequences
of radiation poisoning aren't

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instantaneous, right? Like >> Yeah,
yeah, but this is my point. Three

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Mile Island has We now
have 50 years of data.

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And so if there was going to be some
crisis based on that we would know about

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>> no like excess cancer >>
there's no excess cancer, there's no

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nothing. I don't think anybody's ever
ever shown any anything like that.

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>> Let's find out. Yeah, let's
let's Throw that into perplexity.

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Um are there any excess
cancer rates that are

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linked to Three Mile Island? And then
there's the second question would be um

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are there any um No acute
radiation deaths or clearly

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proven radiation caused illnesses have
been documented from Three Mile Island.

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But epidemiological studies disagree

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about possible small longer-term

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cancer effects in nearby populations.

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But that's from 50 years ago.
But look at that next bullet.

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Uh immediate injuries or deaths official
investigations by Nuclear Regulatory

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Commission and other agencies conclude
that the radioactive releases were low

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and that there were no detectable health
effects on plant workers or the public

197
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in the immediate aftermath.
>> the Nuclear Regulatory Commission is

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against building new nuclear power plants.

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>> Right. Like right. These are not So
the problem is the narrative, right? The

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problem is that everybody freaked out.

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Oh, nuclear, we're going to die. It's
new technology. It's it's voodoo. It's

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witchcraft. >> green.
It's green. It's it's the same

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>> It's the same stuff
that makes the bombs.

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>> Makes the bombs. Yeah, bad.
The ick factor is ick factor.

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It feels bad. >> they're
going to lie to you. The

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government will lie. You'll die and
they'll they'll sweep it under the rug.

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Exactly. It makes it makes it Yeah,
it's you have this And by the way, like I

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said, I I think it's understandable.

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Like you have you have this like
visceral response and I mean that's a

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real thing. People something people
experience. It's a real thing. Right.

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>> But the result of that, like let's just
put yourself you're an environmentalist,

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the result of that is for 50
years we've generated

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all of this completely unnecessary
carbon like the entire time. Like we

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like that's that's that's
that's the alternative.

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>> Right. >> And by the way,
it's even worse in the

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rest of the world where they don't
need they don't even you know, many many

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developing countries they don't even
have centralized oil and gas the way we

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do. They they literally do wood burning
inside their homes and that is extremely

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>> Yeah, wood burning's terrible.

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>> That's extremely bad. Unfortunately,
cuz it smells awesome. And here's another

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argument about this. The problem is also

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that the technology around nuclear power

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plants has evolved significantly. Yet

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people are still locked into this idea
of like Fukushima which like they had a

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backup generator that went down.
That whole place is for 100,000 years.

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Yeah, but again it's a it's a place.

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It's a contained place. And so what you
But isn't it leaking into the ocean? I

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don't Yeah, I don't know. I think
it's leaking into the ocean and I think

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like Brett Weinstein
told me not to eat tuna.

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>> [laughter] >> No, that's
mercury. I I think that's it.

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Yeah, that's it. No, he was saying like
radioactive tuna. You get They'll get

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sushi. I think the mercury will get you
before the before the There's definitely

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that. But here's my point. So we decided
we decided to just not build nuclear power

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plants. In fact, we've been shutting
them down. And by And by the way,

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Germany has been shutting them down
the Germany shut them all down, right?

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>> they've been shutting them down.
The The result of that

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It's actually there's there's tons
of ironies in this. And so first of all,

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you don't get you don't get
the energy. You don't get

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like the safest form of energy known
to man. Like you just simply don't Most

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effective. Most effective and cleanest
than everything else. And at least And

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by the way, this is the other thing
is rank ordering all of this like rank

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order any of this against oil and gas
the downstream implications of oil and

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gas or any other form. Like it's just
it's just it's super clear. Like And by

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the way, the environmental movement
itself is turning and they're they're

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actually rediscovering nuclear power and
becoming in favor of it. Right. Stewart

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Brand is one of the original
environmentalists wrote a whole book

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talking about how this this is this whole
thing was a huge mistake. So this

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is starting to happen. But there's all
kinds of just amazing kind of downstream

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things from that. And so one is if you
turn off This is what Europe is doing.

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If you turn off the reliable sources
of energy, then the theory is you're going

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to cut over you're going to cut over
to to to to renewables which is wind and

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solar. Mhm. The problem is wind and solar
are not 24/7. Right. And so you're

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you're you're This is what Germany's has
done is you turn off your nuclear power

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plant. You then are running on wind
and wind and solar which is which is then

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erratic whether the sun is out or whether
the wind is blowing. And so then

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you need your backup generation of power
to be able to make up for the gaps. And

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guess what that is? >> Coal. Coal.

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>> [laughter] >> And so coal coal
emissions are carbon emissions.

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>> Coal is so fun. Okay, but here's
why this is important. Okay, so it's

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important actually for two reasons.
One is it it just make this broad category

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question of can you build things
in America? Can you build a factory? Can

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you build an energy plant? Can you build
a data center? Can you build housing?

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And every single one of those there's
this massive problem which is like right

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now in many cases in many places no, you
can't. Number one. Number two, if you're

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going to build a data center,
you want it to bring its own energy.

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Right? So the very specific thing you
want to do is ideally I you want to

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ideally you'd want to plant a nuclear
micro reactor right next to it. Um and

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just let it like completely power itself.

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Right? And just like let it go.

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Um and and and and yeah and and then
as a consequence these issues are getting

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are getting intertwined. Um and so
and so what and so what's happened is the

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Trump administration is both extremely
pro building AI and building AI data

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centers and they are very pro American
energy production. And then those issues

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are linked because the data centers need
need energy. And as a consequence the

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other the left has become as a
consequence increasingly anti-AI. And

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has always been anti-energy and
anti-nuclear. And now they're combining

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that together. And then
of course Tucker is the latest

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twist on this which is you
now have a rump sort of

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uh I don't even know what to call it
anti-tech anti-AI anti-energy movement

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on the far right. Um and so you've you've
got you've got the horseshoe theory.

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You've got the horseshoe theory where
the the Bernie position on AI and the

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Tucker position on AI are becoming
closer and closer and closer.

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And so so anyway, so that's
the backdrop uh to to to to all this.

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This is why I think it's a great I think
what Kevin is doing is a fantastic idea.

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I think obviously he
should build that thing.

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You know, should he get the tax breaks
or not? I don't know. Whatever. Um

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should he build the thing? 100%. So
the argument about the tax breaks is that

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states offer tax breaks because they're
in in competition with other states. For

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for certain categories of businesses.
Um and so this happens Kevin said it. This

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happens with manufac if if if in the
in the in the rare event that I want to

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open a manufacturing plant in the US
which generally people don't even try

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anymore. But in In event you want to,
you you bid it out to the states and you

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see who gives you the best tax break.