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>> Palmer Lucky, welcome to the show.

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>> Thank you for having me.
I'm so incredibly stoked to be here.

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>> I'm pumped to have you here.

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>> It's so different when it's not
on a screen, you know. Do you watch it? Do

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you watch the show? So, I don't watch
podcasts regularly in general, but I I

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I've seen yours from time to time.
Of course, I had to tune in for Trump. Um,

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and uh it's just it's it's it's a you
know, I'm a virtual reality guy and so,

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you know, I understand the difference
between thing that's on a flat screen

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versus 3D, but it's it's just
so cool to to be here in person.

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>> Oh, thank you. Thank you.
We'll do the next one in VR.

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>> Well, teach me how to do it. Well, I
would love to be the first one to do that.

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>> I I'll I'll set it up. I'll set it up.

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>> Right on. Yeah. So we you're a tech

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titan and uh we had Joe Lndale on a

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couple months ago. Amazing human love.

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>> Amazing. And people should just know my
bias. Joe was one of the first investors

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in my first company, Oculus. So back
when I was a teenager, he put millions

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of dollars into my company at a time
where very few people did. This was his

00:04:32.080 --> 00:04:34.557
last VC firm, Formation 8, which has now

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kind of evolved into 8 VC. So, uh, I I I

00:04:37.840 --> 00:04:42.077
love I love Joe and, uh, I like to think
Joe loves me and we've had a really

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we've had a really productive and
profitable relationship over the years.

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>> Very cool. Well, he was a fascinating
interview and then and then you came up

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and I was like, "Dude, we got we've got

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to get this guy. He's like the Tony

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Stark but real." So,

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>> Tony Stark, except Tony Stark got out
of building weapons and I moved into it.

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So, yeah, we're we're a little bit in
reverse, but uh but but I I I I I like I

00:05:06.640 --> 00:05:10.557
like the comparison. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Well, everybody starts off

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with an introduction here. So, here we

00:05:13.520 --> 00:05:17.917
go. Palmer Lucky from
a from garage inventor

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to Silicon Valley Titan, a true

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innovator and disruptor in technology

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and defense. founded Andural Industries

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in 2017 to radically transform defense

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capabilities of the United States and

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its allies by fusing AI with the latest

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hardware advancements across many

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domains. Designer of Oculus Rift, a

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virtual reality headmounted display and

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founder of Oculus VR, which was acquired

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by Facebook for over $2 billion.

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attended Golden West College in Long

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Beach City College at the age of 14 and

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studied at California State University,

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Long Beach before dropping out to build

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Oculus VR. That seems to be like uh
that seems to be the thing with all of you

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tech innovators as you
drop out of school. And

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>> the only difference between me and all
the other tech guys is they were mostly

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going to school for tech degrees.
I was, if you can believe it, a journalism

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major. I was the online editor of the
Daily 49er, which was the Cal State Long

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Journalism. I was going to do journalism.
I was even as a teenager

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frustrated with the state of journalism
in America, particularly technology

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journalism. I think the thing that

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radicalized me was this CNN piece about

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a uh about this. I think this was back
when you had the the iCloud hacks and

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they were reporting on how 4chan was
affiliated with it. And uh they had this

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technology analyst who's paid six figures,
which was a lot of money at the

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time, you know, when I was going
to school. He paid six figures to live in

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New York City and analyze technology.

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And the anchor says, "So, who is this
for Chan?" And I'm like, "Oh my god,

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this is nuts." And then what does he say?
He says, "Well, we don't know the

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details yet, but he's some kind
of system administrator, someone who knows

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his way around computers and how to hack
things." And I was like, "Oh my god,

00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:09.037
like technology journalism
is going down the

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shitter." And I wanted to be part I
wanted to be part of the solution. So,

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it's it's a I'm glad that I I'm glad I
decided to build technology rather than

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uh report on it. I think being the man
in the arena is a lot more fun and a lot

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more rewarding. But yeah,
it's interesting to imagine a world where

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where I'd be I'd be in your chair.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. Well,
who knows? Maybe one day.

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>> Maybe one day when I'm all when I'm
all when I'm all old and used up, I can I

00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:35.837
can I can uh I can uh I I can get my own

00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:37.837
studio and I I'll have you on.

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>> Cool. known for your unconventional

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approach, love for gadgets, and belief
in using technology to push boundaries,

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whether for entertainment or national

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security. So, man, I don't even I mean,

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we're going to do a life story on you.

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Fascinating human being. I can already
tell with what the 30 minutes that

00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:00.717
you've been here just when we were
down shooting the thumbnails and and uh

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>> I've been very blessed
to have an interesting life.

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>> So, couple of couple of off-the-wall

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things that came up there down there.

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So, you are,

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look, we had a little conspiracy theory

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talk down there. You were talking about

00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:20.797
Trudeau and Castro and let's go into
that before we get into the weeds here.

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>> We'll jump right into the crazy [__]
All right. So, I mean, I look, I'll I'll

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put my I'll put my biases right out

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there. I think Justin Trudeau is

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Castro's son, but you can almost set

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that aside cuz that's not the issue I
really care about. Is it really Castro's

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fault or sorry, is it really Trudeau's
fault if he's Castro's son? Like I don't

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believe in the sins of the father,
right? I mean, I I I like I don't think

00:08:44.640 --> 00:08:48.077
he really should necessarily have to live
his life burdened by that if it was

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true. Like I can understand why someone
would would want to hide that. And like

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that's one issue. I'll set that aside.

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The real question has always been
for me, why is this conspiracy theory

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reported on it the way that it was?
And we were talking about this like let

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let's say that it's let's
say it's not true. Okay, fine.

00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:09.757
But if you go and you look at any
of the press coverage of this conspiracy

00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:13.597
theory, they make you believe through
their reporting that anyone who believes

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it must be truly nuts. They're like
digging deep on this conspiracy theory

00:09:17.520 --> 00:09:21.757
and then what follows is the most
surface level thing that takes every

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official communication at state value
and doesn't even look at the evidence

00:09:25.520 --> 00:09:28.877
that conspiracy theorists are actually
analyzing. You know, they'll say, well,

00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:33.037
you know, it's very clear. the records
are clear. True, uh, uh, Trudeau's

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mother didn't even visit Cuba until 40
years after he was born. It's like, but

00:09:37.520 --> 00:09:40.557
that's not the conspiracy. The conspiracy
theory is that in the flight

00:09:40.640 --> 00:09:44.557
logs, that one trip that was logged
as Caribbean island and doesn't have a

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country name, unlike every single other
thing in the log, that that was Cuba.

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The conspiracy theory is that maybe
it was when she went to his house in

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France. Like, like that's the conspiracy.
And they they literally

00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:59.437
don't mention it. And it makes me wonder
why are they going to such great lengths

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to make this seem not just that like
because you can analyze those and say

00:10:03.280 --> 00:10:07.037
well actually here's why and you know it
was probably filled out by the by the by

00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:10.717
the by the FBO and they just didn't
know where it had been and like there are

00:10:10.800 --> 00:10:13.997
reasonable ways to go after it. But the
way they've gone after it is to pretend

00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:17.917
that you're insane if you believe
this conspiracy theory. And I think that

00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:21.437
really gets back >> every isn't
that just about every conspiracy theory?

00:10:21.520 --> 00:10:24.637
>> I mean it's certainly the I mean
you know where the phrase comes from

00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:27.037
conspiracy theory. I mean, the the term

00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:29.597
conspiracy theory itself and conspiracy

00:10:29.680 --> 00:10:32.877
theorist was invented by the CIA and

00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:37.757
used and pushed through their media
plants to discredit anybody who

00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:40.877
questioned the results of the original
JFK investigation. And again, it gets to

00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:45.117
this thing I Okay, I set aside whether
or not there was a second shooter,

00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:47.597
whether there was anyone on the grass
and all. Let's say that the official

00:10:47.680 --> 00:10:49.917
story really is accurate. It's pretty

00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.637
extraordinary that conspiracy theory,

00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:54.957
conspiracy theorists are themselves

00:10:55.040 --> 00:10:57.437
literally terms born of a government

00:10:57.520 --> 00:11:00.637
conspiracy. Uh it's it's it makes it

00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:04.877
makes you wonder. People say, "Well,
sure, the CIA had 30 media assets back

00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:08.557
then, including, you know, national news
anchors." But I mean, that's not how it

00:11:08.640 --> 00:11:13.597
is today. >> Yeah. Right.
>> Is [laughter] it? Is it?

00:11:13.680 --> 00:11:15.917
>> Right. >> Yeah.
That that that's why I like the

00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.877
Trudeau theory. And you know, there's
other ones like we talked about the

00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:23.037
Camala Harris DNC pipe bomb and like >>
Yeah. What? I didn't I haven't followed

00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:25.437
that much. >> You've got
to look into this one because

00:11:25.520 --> 00:11:29.997
and I'm I'm very I'm really stoked that
we got Trump in office and that we have

00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:33.037
uh we have people coming to the FBI who
are going to be able to dig into this.

00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:35.117
But you the official story according to

00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:37.437
the government which is that there was a

00:11:37.520 --> 00:11:40.477
live active and dangerous pipe bomb

00:11:40.560 --> 00:11:44.157
planted by extremists outside of DNC

00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:46.797
headquarters on January 6th. that Camala

00:11:46.880 --> 00:11:49.037
Harris passed within just several feet

00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:52.637
of that bomb and that they managed to

00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:57.117
save her, diffuse it, and and destroy it.
But there's so many problems with

00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:01.517
this story. For example, you'll remember
that originally Camala Harris through

00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:03.197
her council testified that she wasn't

00:12:03.280 --> 00:12:06.077
even at DNC headquarters on January 6th.

00:12:06.160 --> 00:12:08.797
You'll also see in the video footage

00:12:08.880 --> 00:12:13.357
that's captured of the pipe bomb that
after it was called in and after Secret

00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.557
Service was on site, you have Secret
Service and Capital Police just standing

00:12:16.640 --> 00:12:20.317
around the bomb with their thumbs
in their pockets talking to each other. At

00:12:20.400 --> 00:12:23.677
one point, the Capital Police walk
to their car and eat their lunch. A group

00:12:23.760 --> 00:12:27.357
of children walks by. They don't block
off the street. They don't they don't be

00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:29.517
like, "Hey, don't walk by that pipe bomb

00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:32.317
right there." It it the whole thing is

00:12:32.400 --> 00:12:35.837
it reeks. it it couldn't possibly be

00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:38.717
what they say happened. And then this

00:12:38.800 --> 00:12:43.437
gets to kind of the second layer. Okay,
again, ignore whether it was planted by

00:12:43.520 --> 00:12:47.037
the feds or planted by somebody else
or planted by extremists or maybe they

00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:49.917
found out it was planted by some foreign
government agent. That's a government

00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:53.677
that like it's hard to pick exactly
which conspiracy you want to believe in.

00:12:53.760 --> 00:12:55.197
But there's a simple question. Why has

00:12:55.280 --> 00:12:57.357
Camala Harris never talked about it even

00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:00.797
one time? She has so much to say about

00:13:00.880 --> 00:13:05.917
January 6. So much to say about people
who were just protesting at the capital.

00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.037
Nothing [snorts] to say about the feds
who were planted in, you know, in that

00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:12.397
whole op. But but like why focus on

00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:15.357
things like the people who were

00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:19.837
protesting in front of the capital
building when you could just say, "Oh

00:13:19.920 --> 00:13:22.077
yeah, they literally tried to kill me."

00:13:22.160 --> 00:13:24.557
like right right-wing extremists planted

00:13:24.640 --> 00:13:29.437
bombs outside of my party headquarters
and got within five feet of killing me.

00:13:29.520 --> 00:13:32.237
Like wouldn't is it wouldn't you say that?
Like imagine if that happened to

00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:35.677
Trump. Trump would be melting it for all
it's worth. And I love the guy, but I

00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:37.597
mean he'd say and they almost got me.

00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:42.477
You know, maybe it wasn't 5t. People
say it's 5t. I think it was 2 feet. You

00:13:42.560 --> 00:13:46.157
know, maybe I looked at it. Maybe I
looked at it and said I think that's a

00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:48.637
bomb. And maybe I'm the one who caught

00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:53.277
you. he would be he would be he would be
talking about this and the fact it's not

00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:57.677
talked about like someone has realized
that it's not a good idea to talk about

00:13:57.760 --> 00:14:01.677
whatever happened because it's probably
not what they told the public and so to

00:14:01.760 --> 00:14:04.877
me this is like one of the most
interesting conspiracy theories because

00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:09.437
it's very rare for them to touch people
at Camala's level right it's there's

00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:11.117
lots of conspiracies about like what

00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:15.277
what an ATF unit does or what some group

00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:17.597
of state department goons did it's very

00:14:17.680 --> 00:14:19.437
very rare that the vice president of the

00:14:19.520 --> 00:14:24.957
United States has their proximity
and seal of approval on the actions of the

00:14:25.040 --> 00:14:26.797
day. >> Yeah, that's a damn good point.

00:14:26.880 --> 00:14:29.677
>> Yeah, you you you've got to look
into this and and and watch the video. I

00:14:29.760 --> 00:14:33.917
think like you you your your your uh
your watchers would probably love to see

00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:37.117
like you could just ask yourself like
wait a sec if if they if they know it's

00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.637
a live pipe bomb. Like you're watching
video like how why are they doing what

00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:45.357
I'm watching them doing? How like
this only makes sense if it's a bizarre

00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:49.117
conspiracy. I can't wait till everything
comes out on all this stuff. You know,

00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:52.157
>> I'm so concerned that it's going to be
like the JFK files, there's going to be

00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.717
two missing boxes and they're
going to say, "Oh, well, it's all

00:14:54.800 --> 00:14:56.157
>> I think a lot
of people are worried that

00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:00.477
the the shredders worked overtime before
they got in and the digital shredders

00:15:00.560 --> 00:15:02.557
and all." >> You ever been
involved in litigation?

00:15:02.640 --> 00:15:04.637
>> No. >> So, one of the
things that's interesting

00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:09.917
particularly with criminal criminal I
I've so I've been through I whenever you

00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:12.317
make money, people come after you.
They come out of the woodwork and they sue

00:15:12.400 --> 00:15:14.237
you for, you know, oh, you copied my

00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:16.637
idea. Oh, you're infringing on my patent

00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.477
in Germany. Um, and uh, I've won all of

00:15:20.560 --> 00:15:23.757
the cases that mattered in the end
or got them thrown out by the judge. But

00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:26.237
one of the things that I had to learn
over the years, and by the way, I've

00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.317
been to a verdict in federal court

00:15:28.400 --> 00:15:31.117
twice. So, uh, you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm

00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:35.517
I'm unfortunately I'm pretty well
well acquainted with the rules. If you

00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:41.197
destroy evidence, the way that the court
interprets it is in the least favorable

00:15:41.280 --> 00:15:45.917
light. They basically assume that
whatever was destroyed is as bad as it

00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:49.277
could possibly be. Otherwise, there's
an incentive to destroy. Like, if you

00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:52.397
assume, [snorts] oh, it's not the worst
possible thing. What was destroyed?

00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:55.117
Maybe it was only halfway there
and that's how we're going to weight this.

00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:57.757
>> Yeah. Unless it's the government
destroying the evidence.

00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.477
>> And and and that's one of those like
I wish that they would look at it that way

00:16:00.560 --> 00:16:04.317
and say, "No, no. when a box of evidence
is missing on something and it's the

00:16:04.400 --> 00:16:06.397
government and they were committing

00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.517
these actions happens to be at the JFK

00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:14.157
>> you like you should assume the worst
I'm not even saying that we should assume

00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:18.157
the worst as people I'm saying
the criminal justice system should assume

00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:21.117
the worst because otherwise they're
going to keep doing this like you you

00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:25.277
need to say no the box of missing papers
does not get you out of hot [__] the box

00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:29.197
of missing papers is the indictment it
is the thing that you go to prison for

00:16:29.280 --> 00:16:31.437
life for when you lose the files

00:16:31.520 --> 00:16:35.197
on the JFK investigation. Like that is

00:16:35.280 --> 00:16:37.357
that is way more important to the

00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:40.317
national fabric and unity of America and

00:16:40.400 --> 00:16:42.557
and people's trust in government than

00:16:42.640 --> 00:16:47.597
any simple crime ever could be.
You know, like that cover up is so much

00:16:47.680 --> 00:16:50.797
worse than anything that people go
to prison for life for every day.

00:16:50.880 --> 00:16:54.317
>> You think they're going to do it or I
guess it would be already gone now that

00:16:54.400 --> 00:16:56.237
now that they >> You mean are
they are they going to hide it?

00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:58.237
>> Yeah. >> I I I think
it's what you said. I think

00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.957
the shredders are working overtime and I
think I think they're looking what's

00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:04.637
happening with US Aid and they're
probably saying, "Oh [__] you know that

00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:09.117
the Doge Boys are coming they're
coming here next. Uh we we we got to do

00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:12.397
something." >> Well,
I mean they they already I mean

00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.157
are you familiar with Blackwater at all?

00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:17.837
>> Oh, very familiar. And yeah, and I
I've I've had the pleasure of meeting Eric

00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:21.277
Prince a few times. Actually,
even before I started Androl, I asked him,

00:17:21.360 --> 00:17:23.837
"What should Andre build?" Um

00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:28.797
>> what did he say? Should I say

00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:31.837
I think I think I I I think I can say

00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:35.997
it. Um, we talked about a few different
things, but one of the things that he

00:17:36.080 --> 00:17:40.877
thought would be a good technological
innovation would be artillery that is

00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.077
actively cooled in such a way that you
don't have any cool down intervals. Like

00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:48.477
what if you could have an artillery
piece that works at maximum mechanical

00:17:48.560 --> 00:17:52.477
uh, you know, interval? like it has
a very high cyclic rate artillery that

00:17:52.560 --> 00:17:56.797
never needs to cool down and never goes
down for uh you know never goes down for

00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:58.317
maintenance like something that can like

00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:01.037
auto swap a lot of the consumables. His

00:18:01.120 --> 00:18:04.077
point was uh that artillery is limited a

00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:08.077
lot in that in that respect and that you
can only get off so many rounds at a

00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:11.037
time from a single piece and that it
would be a huge game changer on the

00:18:11.120 --> 00:18:14.797
battlefield. At the time it was that was
not the type you I was looking at how I

00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.917
could apply mostly artificial
intelligence and autonomy to AI. Like

00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.637
the name of my company, Andreal
Industries. You'll note the acronym is

00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:24.637
AI, but we had to hide it because back
then AI was a kind of a dirty word in

00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:27.117
tech. Everyone thought it was never
coming, never going to work. So we

00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:31.117
couldn't talk about it. Um I ended up
not building it, but I look back now and

00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:34.397
say, [__] you know, that probably would
have been a really useful thing to have

00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:38.717
in Ukraine, especially in the early days
of the war. Um but yeah and of course

00:18:38.800 --> 00:18:43.720
read his read his book
uh Civilian Warriors.

00:18:53.840 --> 00:18:55.437
>> Yeah. So the reason
I bring it up, we're

00:18:55.520 --> 00:18:59.197
talking about the government deleting
evidence and so you know kind of the

00:18:59.280 --> 00:19:01.117
downfall of Blackwater was that Nur

00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:06.637
Square incident. I think it was back
in 2007 when they they tried those guys.

00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:08.957
>> That [clears throat] was when they were
taking fire and then they responded and

00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:10.877
there were there ended up
being civilian casualties.

00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:15.517
>> Yeah. They made it out to be like a big
like a bunch of Blackwater cas they made

00:19:15.600 --> 00:19:18.637
it sound like they just rolled into
an intersection just like did like a drive

00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.477
by shooting or something. It was in that
>> So they deleted the drone footage.

00:19:22.560 --> 00:19:24.637
>> Really? >> Yeah. There was actually a

00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:26.877
>> somehow that hadn't even
made it into my longterm memory.

00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:31.357
>> Yeah. A lot of people don't know.
And so the the there was a green ber green

00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:35.677
green beret unit that was actually
taking contact just just uh I can't

00:19:35.760 --> 00:19:37.597
remember if it was like a couple

00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:39.357
kilometers or a couple thousand meters

00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:43.197
away but um but basically when that they

00:19:43.280 --> 00:19:44.957
had that drone on station so they

00:19:45.040 --> 00:19:49.277
brought it over and they've they deleted

00:19:49.360 --> 00:19:54.237
there's like a 5minut 10 minute segment
of drone footage where you actually see

00:19:54.320 --> 00:19:56.397
the vehicle. >> So short
enough that this clearly wasn't

00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:58.797
just like lost data. It's they want that

00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:01.917
>> and then the very specific like portion

00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:03.677
of the drone footage that showed the

00:20:03.760 --> 00:20:06.557
actual gunfight was deleted. You can see

00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:11.437
where the vehicle rolled up and then it
cuts out and then it goes away and you

00:20:11.520 --> 00:20:15.437
can even see where you know where
the radiator fluid and stuff had been had

00:20:15.520 --> 00:20:18.557
been leaking out from the
vehicle getting shot up.

00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:20.557
>> And in court they're like, "Well, where

00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:21.997
is this drone footage?" and they said,

00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:26.077
"Oh, we routinely we we routinely delete

00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:28.477
drone footage uh just to save memory."

00:20:28.560 --> 00:20:32.797
And they're like, "So, you just
happened to just delete the just that

00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:36.797
>> just the 10-minute segment that shows
the actual gunfight and everything

00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:40.557
before and everything after still there?"
And those guys wound up getting

00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:43.117
pardoned by Trump. But they sent one one

00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.757
to prison for life, three for >>
the actual guys in the square, not the

00:20:47.840 --> 00:20:49.357
people that deleted
the drone footage to be.

00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:53.277
>> Yeah, the guys in the square.
They who deleted the drone footage.

00:20:53.360 --> 00:20:56.397
>> I don't think they I don't think
they did. I mean, those guys ran out of

00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:00.157
money. That one of the attorneys that
was on the case was kind of doing a pro

00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.437
bono by the end of it. And >> see,
these are the things that undermine

00:21:03.520 --> 00:21:06.157
confidence in of just America for

00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:10.717
Americans. People wonder why we lose
confidence in our institutions. Like, it

00:21:10.800 --> 00:21:14.077
it is [__] like that. Like that's almost
worse than those guys going to prison is

00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:19.597
the fact that everyone watched people in
the state do that, get away with it, and

00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:22.637
probably do it again. >> Yeah.
I mean, it's not even at the

00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:27.277
highest level. Then we then we brought
in this guy, uh, Captain Brad Giri. He

00:21:27.360 --> 00:21:31.197
was the he was the commanding officer,
Naval Special Warfare Training Center,

00:21:31.280 --> 00:21:33.357
which is Buds. And couple years ago,

00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:35.437
they had that um they had that Buds

00:21:35.520 --> 00:21:38.317
candidate uh who died in training. And

00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:43.757
they So, it turns out he likely died
from performance-enhancing drugs that he

00:21:43.840 --> 00:21:47.037
was sourcing from out of the country.
In fact, he had a cooler in his car with

00:21:47.120 --> 00:21:51.597
all this [__] And they made it sound
like the training was too hard. It was

00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.957
all this Yep. >> all Captain Gir's fault.

00:21:55.040 --> 00:21:59.197
>> And they reinvestigated it three
different They basically just they

00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:01.117
reinvestigated, I believe, three times.

00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:05.117
Yep. And they just kept doing it until
they got the performance-enhancing drugs

00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:09.677
out of the investigation. And once
>> there's some procedural error or we

00:22:09.760 --> 00:22:13.277
weren't allowed to have that. >> Then
they pinned his ass to the wall and

00:22:13.360 --> 00:22:15.277
and we wound up exposing it on the show.

00:22:15.360 --> 00:22:18.237
Now the case has been totally dismissed
and looks like he's going to get his

00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:20.877
retirement, his ranking. >> I I
don't know where you fall on this. I

00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:22.877
need to look more into that one.
I don't know where you fall on this, but

00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:25.997
generally like we should be allowing
these guys to use performance-enhancing

00:22:26.080 --> 00:22:29.357
drugs and it should be on the level
where we know about it and it's

00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:33.357
monitored and like like that that cuz
like the reality is people are going to

00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.437
be using these things and there's ways
to use them that are pretty safe and

00:22:37.520 --> 00:22:41.117
probably increase their probability
of living in general, but we've just we've

00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:42.957
treated that whole category like the

00:22:43.040 --> 00:22:48.797
whole category of making your body, you
know, better is just like it's it's just

00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:50.957
it's just not >> I'm not
against it, but it's got to be

00:22:51.040 --> 00:22:53.997
done Right. And if that played a part
in >> Well, the key is it has to like we

00:22:54.080 --> 00:22:56.877
should be doing it and we should
be doing it right. We shouldn't we

00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:00.237
shouldn't be driving it into the shadows
so that people are hiding it from their

00:23:00.320 --> 00:23:04.077
doctor, hiding it from their unit,
hiding it from everybody. And now nobody

00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:07.997
has like I mean I don't want to be like
I don't want to be I don't want to be

00:23:08.080 --> 00:23:12.477
like too mean here but like do you think
Marines are the right guys to be you

00:23:12.560 --> 00:23:16.557
know measuring out dosages of this stuff?
you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm being

00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:20.637
unfair, but like, you know, you you you
can play to the stereotype really easily

00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:22.717
here. It's like like are is is that the

00:23:22.800 --> 00:23:27.757
guy you trust to get it right every
single time to get the math just so and

00:23:27.840 --> 00:23:31.037
with with with with people's lives on
the line? No, you should like you should

00:23:31.120 --> 00:23:34.157
have a doctor who's responsible for that
and they should say, "Hey, your job is

00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:37.837
not to is not to, you know, have this
stuff hidden from you. It's to make sure

00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.477
that it's being done in a safe
way that's increasing their combat

00:23:40.560 --> 00:23:43.597
effectiveness, increasing their
probability of living to see their

00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:48.317
families. >> Yeah. Yeah.
All right. So, uh, so I got

00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:52.237
a a Patreon account. They're basically
our it's a subscription account. They're

00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:56.397
our top they're our top supporters been
with us since the beginning and, uh, we

00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:00.077
built we built quite the community over
there. The behind the scenes segment

00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.917
that you did them up. Yeah. >> So,
one of the things I do is I offer

00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:07.677
them the opportunity to ask each
and every guest a question. This is from

00:24:07.760 --> 00:24:10.637
Mel. My 15-year-old son thinks you are

00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:13.037
amazing and inspiring. My son is really

00:24:13.120 --> 00:24:15.277
into electronics and building things,

00:24:15.360 --> 00:24:20.077
but not as much into coding. What advice
would you give him that might help him

00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:23.677
and other kids like him when he's
thinking about when he's thinking about

00:24:23.760 --> 00:24:26.317
building skills early to do epic things

00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:30.957
like you with his life? Well, good news
for him. I'm not much of a coder either.

00:24:31.040 --> 00:24:32.637
I'm more of a hardware guy. More of an

00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:35.597
electrooptical mechanical guy. Um, and

00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:40.237
so my I think he's in a fine place
to not necessarily be a great coder,

00:24:40.320 --> 00:24:43.997
especially with how things are going
with AI. Like the actual act of coding

00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:47.517
is going to become less and less
important to being able to build things.

00:24:47.600 --> 00:24:50.397
I'm I'm not saying that you're not
going to still have programmers. I'm not

00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:54.637
saying that you're uh going to have
everything done by AI. But when you're

00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.277
talking about, you know, the types
of coding that I had to learn to do, like

00:24:57.360 --> 00:25:01.517
gluing together bits of firmware, making
my Arduino, well, the Arduino wasn't big

00:25:01.600 --> 00:25:05.117
when I was when I was his age. But,
you know, what what did you just say?

00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.917
>> Arduino. It's it's the thing that all
the kids are using these days. It's it's

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.317
a it's a it's an it's a quasi open-

00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:15.037
source microcontroller kit that allows
you to interface uh different types of

00:25:15.120 --> 00:25:18.877
sensors with compute. So like like if
you wanted to build an automated bird

00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:21.997
feeder in my day, you would have gone
out and been like, "Okay, I'm going to

00:25:22.080 --> 00:25:25.997
build a 555 microcontroller circuit with
a timer and an interrupt and I'm going

00:25:26.080 --> 00:25:29.437
to build a thing where the bird flies
in and it put dispenses feed or it

00:25:29.520 --> 00:25:32.957
dispenses feed, you know, every 12 hours
if no birds come by." And we would have

00:25:33.040 --> 00:25:37.597
done that all by scratch. These days,
a kid would go and buy an Arduino and they

00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.037
would probably plug in like the motor
and they plug in the sensor and then

00:25:41.120 --> 00:25:45.357
they would write a little bit of code
that says if the, you know, if the uh

00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:49.037
resistance level coming off of this
sensor, you know, if the resistance

00:25:49.120 --> 00:25:51.917
drops to this, that means something's
blocking it. That means that it's

00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:55.677
probably a bird. Then trigger this motor,
you know, fire this relay, give

00:25:55.760 --> 00:26:00.397
it the voltage for this long, this many
seconds. Uh like the that that's the

00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:01.837
kind of way you would do it these days.

00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:05.917
And so I'm saying that type of coding,
you don't need to be very good. Like you

00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.997
you you need to know enough to get by.

00:26:08.080 --> 00:26:11.677
Think about like, you know, you might
not know enough to design a car engine,

00:26:11.760 --> 00:26:14.957
but you know enough to clean a carburetor.
That's the type of coder I

00:26:15.040 --> 00:26:19.197
was. And so uh I think his son is in a
perfectly fine place. The most important

00:26:19.280 --> 00:26:21.837
advice that I can give people is to work

00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:25.037
on projects that you care about.

00:26:25.120 --> 00:26:28.637
Don't look to school, whether it's

00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:32.637
college or the statemandated, you know,
younger educational system. Don't look

00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:35.757
to them to tell you, "Here's what
electronics projects you should be

00:26:35.840 --> 00:26:39.277
working on. Here's what you should be
doing to learn how to do these things."

00:26:39.360 --> 00:26:43.597
Cuz one, they're often years or even
decades behind what industry and

00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:46.317
hobbyists are actually doing. So, you're
going to be learning how to do things

00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:50.797
that are ancient. Two,
when you're working on something that

00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.077
you're only doing for yourself, you're
going to make way better decisions. I

00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.677
generally find in what you teach
yourself, in how you do things. Like

00:26:57.760 --> 00:27:02.397
when I when I hire people at Andreal,
I look for people who have done projects

00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:05.277
that were outside of what their work
paid them to do or what their school

00:27:05.360 --> 00:27:08.637
made them do because that means they're
the type of person who is willing to

00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:11.917
work on things with their own money
and their own time because they want to

00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.277
bring something into this world that
wouldn't have existed otherwise. And to

00:27:15.360 --> 00:27:18.317
me, those are the projects that people
like that's what drives you to learn the

00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:20.317
most. It's what drives you to have the

00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:21.757
right attitude around all this stuff.

00:27:21.840 --> 00:27:25.357
So, uh, I would say like don't

00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:28.797
don't do what I did, which was like I I
did some I, you know, I started going to

00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:31.677
college. I was 14 or 15 and I took some

00:27:31.760 --> 00:27:36.637
robotics courses, which in hindsight,
like I don't regret taking them, but I

00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.917
think the time that I spent taking those
robotics courses would have been better

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:43.117
put into self-guided,

00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:47.037
self-directed uh, uh, efforts. And that's
especially true in the modern day

00:27:47.120 --> 00:27:50.637
of the internet. all these things
that like in my era were not as widely

00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:53.597
available and you kind of had to go,
you know, talk to a professor about it.

00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:57.357
There's a YouTuber who can teach
you even better. There's a there's an

00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.917
Instructibles guide. Heck, there's
probably a lot of people on Patreon, you

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.877
know. There's there there's there's I
mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of

00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:05.837
creators on on Patreon who are who are
putting out really interesting guides,

00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:09.997
really interesting education. So yeah,
I I would tell your son like encourage him

00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:15.037
to work on the things that he's
interested in and don't rely on other

00:28:15.120 --> 00:28:18.717
people telling him what he should be
working on. And don't sweat the fact

00:28:18.800 --> 00:28:21.677
that he's not doing much or any coding.

00:28:21.760 --> 00:28:25.597
There is lots of stuff you can create
in the technology world when you're a bad

00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:28.317
coder. It just means he's going to have
to go find a really good programmer as

00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:31.597
his co-founder. That's all. >> Right on.
Right on. Well, I'm sure he's

00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:35.677
going to get a lot out of that.
So, got a little gift for you.

00:28:35.760 --> 00:28:38.397
>> Oh, boy. Yeah. Yeah.

00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.597
>> Those are uh vigilant gummy bears.

00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:43.197
Little something for the flight home.

00:28:43.280 --> 00:28:45.597
>> Now, there's no like caffeine
in these or anything, right?

00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.717
>> No. No funny business. >> I mean,
there's a bunch of [__] that's

00:28:48.800 --> 00:28:50.317
unhealthy for you, like sugar.

00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:52.077
>> So, what's good
what's good about these?

00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.397
>> What's Taste them. >> All right.
I'm going to taste them.

00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:59.197
>> Open them up. I've uh I've
been a big fan of European

00:28:59.280 --> 00:29:04.077
gummy bears in the past because they
don't use uh they don't use um all the

00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:07.037
stuff that they use in the United States.

00:29:07.120 --> 00:29:11.197
>> These are good. >> Those are
made right here in the United States.

00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:14.877
>> And you're not using a I can tell you
don't have like a bunch of mineral oil

00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:17.677
on these as an anti-caking
or anti-sticking agent, do you?

00:29:17.760 --> 00:29:21.517
>> Dude, don't ask me about
the ingredients. All I know is they taste

00:29:21.600 --> 00:29:24.477
[__] amazing. >> They do.
They taste good. I asked was

00:29:24.560 --> 00:29:27.837
I'm interested in food science.
Before before starting Androl, one of the

00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.797
things I was considering doing
was starting a company to make synthetic

00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.477
food out of petroleum. Uh they would
have zero calories and therefore allow

00:29:34.560 --> 00:29:36.317
you to eat as much as you
want without getting fat.

00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:39.917
>> Interesting. >> And so u
I had to learn a lot about,

00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:43.597
>> you know, food science, but in
particular the science of foods that

00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:45.997
you're not really supposed to eat,
like mineral oil. And a lot of these gummy

00:29:46.080 --> 00:29:49.917
bears, they put anti-stick, anti-cake
agents in them, and if you have too many

00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:51.837
of them, they give you diarrhea.

00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:54.397
>> Yeah. Yeah.
And I can tell you I can tell

00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.357
>> I don't see it on the ingredients list
and I I can feel it like they don't have

00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:00.797
like that slimy sheen. Yeah. So you
can you can eat as many of these as you

00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:05.517
want. I bet without having a bad
day at the toilet. [laughter]

00:30:05.600 --> 00:30:08.237
>> Something to think about.
>> You got a gift, right?

00:30:08.320 --> 00:30:13.517
>> I do. So this is something that I
put a lot of time into. Not for yours

00:30:13.600 --> 00:30:18.077
specifically, just generally. [laughter]
Um, this is a mod retro chromatic. For

00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:21.917
about the last 15 years, as a side
project that I put a little bit of time

00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:24.477
into here and there, I've been building

00:30:24.560 --> 00:30:27.677
a clone of the Nintendo Game Boy Color.

00:30:27.760 --> 00:30:30.557
So, this is a hardware clone that is

00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:35.357
basically what Nintendo would have made
if money was no object. So, it's got a

00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:39.037
custom one to one LCD that's the exact
same resolution as the original Game Boy

00:30:39.120 --> 00:30:43.437
and Game Boy Color. Uh, it's a modern
modern totally custom LCD, sapphire

00:30:43.520 --> 00:30:45.517
screen lens. So, not glass or plastic.

00:30:45.600 --> 00:30:49.037
It's the same stuff you'd see on like
a high-end Rolex. And the shell is made of

00:30:49.120 --> 00:30:53.197
an aluminum magnesium alloy. Compatible
with any Game Boy game. I I gave you a

00:30:53.280 --> 00:30:57.597
couple games, too, that are
sitting over in the studio. So, uh

00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:00.717
it's a it's a pretty it's a pretty fun
it's a pretty fun bit of hardware. And

00:31:00.800 --> 00:31:02.557
this one's this one's signed by me.

00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:05.677
>> Dude, I was a Game Boy fiend. So

00:31:05.760 --> 00:31:07.997
>> So, it comes bundled with uh it comes

00:31:08.080 --> 00:31:10.797
bundled with

00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:13.677
>> Tetris. It's a new
edition of Tetris. It

00:31:13.760 --> 00:31:16.077
was this was actually played at the

00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:18.157
Tetris Classic World Championships last

00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:23.277
year. Um, we had a tournament for it and
in my opinion, it is the best version of

00:31:23.360 --> 00:31:25.117
Tetris that's ever been made. Oh, well,

00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:30.397
if you want the batteries, it runs
on not rechargeables. Runs on Ace.

00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:32.797
>> Nice. >> So, you have to twist
those out of the packaging.

00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.357
>> I'll do that later. >> But,
uh, I'm going to frame this one and

00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:37.517
put it in the studio.
>> And you have another one in the studio

00:31:37.600 --> 00:31:40.317
so that you can actually play. So,
I'm I'm not going to let I'm not going to

00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:42.477
let it be trapped.
You got to got to get back into Tetris.

00:31:42.560 --> 00:31:46.877
>> I will. I will. Thank you.
This is awesome. I love this stuff, man.

00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:49.517
>> I love putting stuff from guests
in the studio. That's all this

00:31:49.600 --> 00:31:50.477
>> You have so many cool things.

00:31:50.560 --> 00:31:52.077
>> Most of the stuff in here is all from

00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:57.757
prior guests and all has like a a deep
meaning, at least to me. And um

00:31:57.840 --> 00:32:01.117
>> well, I've got a lot of my heart
and soul in that. And the the the name for

00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:05.197
it, the Mod Retro Chromatic, Mod Retro
is actually the first business I ever

00:32:05.280 --> 00:32:07.917
started. So, when I was a teenager, like

00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:12.877
13 or 14, I started an internet forum
called Mod Retro for uh game console

00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:17.197
modification enthusiasts.
>> And uh you know, it's it's it's it's

00:32:17.280 --> 00:32:18.877
pretty fun to come back to it today.

00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:21.917
>> Thank you. Thank you. But um all right,

00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:27.037
so like I said, we're going to do
a life story and then get into

00:32:27.120 --> 00:32:28.957
all your business ventures.
>> Let's do it.

00:32:29.040 --> 00:32:32.077
>> At least some of them. I don't know
how many how many businesses do you have

00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:36.717
right now? You know, right now I'm 99%
focused on just Andreal. Um, I mean, I

00:32:36.800 --> 00:32:40.317
sold Oculus to Facebook for a few
billion dollars and I was up in Silicon

00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:42.717
Valley for a few years
before they fired me.

00:32:42.800 --> 00:32:44.957
>> Uh, so I don't have that one anymore.

00:32:45.040 --> 00:32:49.357
>> And Mod Retro I've had, you know, since
I was 14 years old and I'm, uh, I'm very

00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:53.197
lucky where I found a few other people
who are putting their full time into it

00:32:53.280 --> 00:32:57.597
because I just couldn't put time into
it anymore. But, uh, I'd say and and

00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:01.837
androlls and rolls my my baby. That's the
thing that I'm putting all my time into.

00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:04.477
Like that company is awesome.
>> Thank you.

00:33:04.560 --> 00:33:07.517
>> It's awesome. >> Well,
like for people don't know, it's

00:33:07.600 --> 00:33:09.517
we're we're not a defense contractor.

00:33:09.600 --> 00:33:14.317
We're a defense product company. So,
we use our own money to design and build

00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:17.117
products for the United States military
and allies around the world that

00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:21.357
leverage autonomy and artificial
intelligence to do things that nobody's

00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:25.757
been ever a ever able to do with weapon
systems before. So our business model is

00:33:25.840 --> 00:33:29.117
that we build these things using our own
money, not taxpayer money. And then we

00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:33.197
show up to the government, not with
a PowerPoint saying, "Hey, here's this

00:33:33.280 --> 00:33:37.837
thing. I want you to give me money to
build for I have this working tech, this

00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:40.397
working product. >> Buy it for me."

00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:43.677
>> That's awesome. All right. So, where'd

00:33:43.760 --> 00:33:44.797
you grow up?

00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.517
>> I grew up in Long
Beach, California. Um,

00:33:47.600 --> 00:33:50.957
my my dad was a car salesman. My mom was

00:33:51.040 --> 00:33:53.037
a stay-at-home mom who homeschooled me

00:33:53.120 --> 00:33:56.557
and my three younger sisters. Um, I

00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:00.717
ended up moving down to Orange County
to start my first company, Oculus. But I

00:34:00.800 --> 00:34:02.877
spent Yeah, I spent my whole
childhood in Long Beach.

00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:04.717
>> You were homeschooled? >> Yes.

00:34:04.800 --> 00:34:07.277
>> Tell me about that.
Why were you homeschooled?

00:34:07.360 --> 00:34:09.357
>> Yeah, there's lots
of reasons. Um, wait,

00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:11.197
how do you how old are you right now?

00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:13.677
>> How old? I'm 32 years old.
>> You're only 32.

00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:15.917
>> I'm only 32. >> Holy [__]

00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:17.757
>> Yeah, I'm I' I've had a I've had a

00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:21.197
pretty intense run. Um, but I I was

00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:23.597
homeschooled probably because I was uh

00:34:23.680 --> 00:34:26.397
not the type of kid who fit into the

00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:29.197
public education system. Uh, I was, you

00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:33.757
know, probably these days they'd say
that I have ADHD. Uh, but back then it

00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:35.277
was just called being a boy.

00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:37.677
>> And, uh, and, uh, I think I think my

00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:42.397
parents identified that, uh, of me
in particular out of my sisters was

00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:46.237
probably going to do better in a
homeschooling environment than in public

00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:50.717
school. My my my sisters, they were
homeschooled for various periods of

00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:54.877
their childhood, but all of them at some
point actually ended up going back to

00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:57.197
traditional schooling.
>> Really? But you didn't.

00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:00.957
>> Yeah. And I look I you different things
work differently for different kids. Um

00:35:01.040 --> 00:35:04.077
some people really like the formal
structure and and the formal formal

00:35:04.160 --> 00:35:06.797
education process and being told exactly
what you're going to do and how you're

00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:09.437
going to do it and when you're going
to do it. And I was not one of those

00:35:09.520 --> 00:35:11.437
people. And I I think it
turned out pretty well for me.

00:35:11.520 --> 00:35:14.237
>> I think so. It sounds >> You
don't mind if I eat these the whole

00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.357
time, right? All right, >> we got if
you need more than two bags, we got more.

00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:20.557
>> All right, but um >> my wife's going
to love them. She loves jelly beans.

00:35:20.640 --> 00:35:23.517
>> Do you have kids? >> I do.
I have one kid. He's 6 months old.

00:35:23.600 --> 00:35:25.277
>> Congratulations. >> Yeah,
it's really great. I'm I'm a I'm

00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:28.957
I'm a big pronatalist. I definitely
believe you need to have kids. Like if

00:35:29.040 --> 00:35:32.877
you don't have 2.1 kids minimum, you're
a traitor to the nation and our ideals

00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:36.077
cuz you're you're basically outsourcing
responsibility for the continued

00:35:36.160 --> 00:35:39.037
existence of our nation to other people's,
which seems like it's a super

00:35:39.120 --> 00:35:42.237
elitist attitude. You're like, "Oh,
I think I just want one kid." Like, you

00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:44.397
[__] elitist. you [laughter] you you

00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:49.757
you like it's like a mentality almost
thinking like oh like like yeah I'll let

00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:53.117
the you know I'll let the c I'll let the
cattle reproduce you know they can keep

00:35:53.200 --> 00:35:57.437
up the population but my time you know
I I don't want to raise more than one it

00:35:57.520 --> 00:36:00.717
just it it seems like an abdication
of responsibility for our nation's future

00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:05.197
and direction that I I just can't get
behind of course that that like ignores

00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:07.837
people who have like a real reason like
a medical reason or a health reason or

00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:12.717
some unique economic circumstance but like
if you have the means to do it it's

00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:16.557
crazy to me to not have at least 2.1 kids.
So, you could say, "I did my part.

00:36:16.640 --> 00:36:20.557
I I met replacement rate." That meeting
replacement rate should be the bare

00:36:20.640 --> 00:36:23.517
minimum. You know, if you're going to die,
you should at least if you plan on

00:36:23.600 --> 00:36:27.677
dying, you should at least replace
yourself. [laughter] >> 6 months old, huh?

00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:31.757
>> Yeah. 6 months old. So, he's uh so
he's uh he's sitting up and looking around

00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:34.237
and and and and uh and loving life.

00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.797
>> That's cool.
How do you like being a dad?

00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:40.477
>> Well, I'm really lucky because my wife
is really tad and so she's doing most of

00:36:40.560 --> 00:36:43.437
the hard work right now. I'm still I'm
still working a lot. So, I I get to see

00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:47.757
him in the morning and I get to see
him at night. And uh we've oriented his

00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:50.717
napping and sleeping schedules where
where where I get to spend some time

00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:54.477
with him every day. But, uh for the most
part, she's the one she's the one doing

00:36:54.560 --> 00:36:57.277
most of the work. And that's uh
that that that works out well for us.

00:36:57.360 --> 00:36:58.957
>> How long have you been married?

00:36:59.040 --> 00:37:00.717
>> Oh, man.

00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:03.997
Since uh summer of 2019.

00:37:04.080 --> 00:37:06.397
>> So, uh so I mean, how how many years is

00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:11.197
that now? I guess >> almost
six years. Or is that almost

00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:14.397
>> almost six years? Yeah. Yeah. So,
but but but we've been we've been together

00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.597
for a really long time. So, my wife
and I met when we were 15 years old.

00:37:17.680 --> 00:37:18.077
>> No.

00:37:18.160 --> 00:37:21.837
>> And uh we met at a uh at a debate camp

00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:25.117
in in Maryland at a at a law school that

00:37:25.200 --> 00:37:27.357
ran a policy debate camp that ended with

00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:30.157
a debate tournament. And the first time

00:37:30.240 --> 00:37:33.757
that we met, she was crying within

00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:36.637
minutes of meeting me because it was my

00:37:36.720 --> 00:37:39.117
debate team versus her debate team. and

00:37:39.200 --> 00:37:41.917
we were arguing about whether or not uh

00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:44.157
and not arguing you formally debating

00:37:44.240 --> 00:37:46.877
whether or not DDT, the pesticide agent

00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:49.037
should be legal in the United States.

00:37:49.120 --> 00:37:54.237
And her team was completely unprepared
for our argument in particular, which I

00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:57.197
can get into if you want, but it was it
was a novel argument that none of the

00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:58.877
other teams had ever seen. We ended up

00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:01.597
beating all of the other beginner teams,

00:38:01.680 --> 00:38:06.397
all but uh all but one of the other
intermediate teams, and several of the

00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:08.797
advanced teams. So we went way further
than we should have because of this

00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:12.477
novel argument. Anyway, they they were
so unprepared and that they they they

00:38:12.560 --> 00:38:13.917
literally started crying in the middle

00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:17.117
of the debate and uh somehow that we

00:38:17.200 --> 00:38:21.837
went from that to her uh getting married
to me. Uh so it's it's it's it's a

00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:22.957
really strange world, isn't it?

00:38:23.040 --> 00:38:25.997
>> Very cool. Very cool.
>> She realized I wasn't a mean person. I

00:38:26.080 --> 00:38:27.117
was just really good at debate.

00:38:27.200 --> 00:38:32.077
>> Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. I could
see that already. So you you said you

00:38:32.160 --> 00:38:34.077
had three sisters. >> Yep. Yep.

00:38:34.160 --> 00:38:36.397
>> No brothers. >> No brothers.
And that's why I'm so glad

00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:40.797
to have a boy. I know you're supposed to
love them all equally and not care which

00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:45.117
it was, but I was clear from the very
beginning. I said it, I I'm praying it's

00:38:45.200 --> 00:38:49.517
a boy. Please be a boy. Because growing
up in a household that was, you know, my

00:38:49.600 --> 00:38:53.757
dayto-day was my mother and three sisters.

00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:55.197
Look, I always say you're supposed to go

00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.357
to hell after you die. All right? It

00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:00.877
it's it can be intense. And so I was so

00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:04.397
so worried that I might be on a track
where like I'm only going to have

00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:07.997
daughters and that all of a sudden I'm
stuck in my childhood again. And so now

00:39:08.080 --> 00:39:10.477
that I've had a boy,
I'm I'm happy to have either. But

00:39:10.560 --> 00:39:12.477
>> when's the next one coming?

00:39:12.560 --> 00:39:15.837
>> Um as as as fast
as biologically reasonable.

00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:19.117
>> Nice. Nice. Nice. So what were you into

00:39:19.200 --> 00:39:23.517
as a kid? >> Oh man.
You know, I I started out as a

00:39:23.600 --> 00:39:27.357
outdoor kid when I was a kid,
you know, so running,

00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:30.317
surfing, swimming, like I I was into all

00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:33.037
the outdoor stuff. And it wasn't until I

00:39:33.120 --> 00:39:37.037
was like 12, 13 that I really seriously

00:39:37.120 --> 00:39:39.197
got into electronics and engineering.

00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:40.797
And then I quickly became an indoor kid.

00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:43.757
Like I just I I ceased to I ceased to be

00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:47.837
useful in a physical capacity. Were you
>> Were you building forts and all that

00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:52.397
kind of Were you building Were you
building weapons? So, I was I mean I I I

00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:56.877
actually I just dug up a bunch of the
first weapons that I built. Um I built a

00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:59.037
multi-stage electromagnetic accelerator.

00:39:59.120 --> 00:40:03.997
Uh basically a coil gun. So, not not
a not a not a rail gun. Rail guns, you

00:40:04.080 --> 00:40:07.837
know, put past the current through
the projectile directly. Just making a

00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:11.517
magnetic field that accelerated uh
accelerated nails and shot them out of a

00:40:11.600 --> 00:40:13.757
tube. Um the first thing that I ever

00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:17.357
built was a uh it was a a stun glove.

00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:21.597
So, it was a Home Depot leather glove
that I mounted a capacitor charging

00:40:21.680 --> 00:40:25.437
circuit. This I made those were like
11 or 12 capacitor charging circuit and

00:40:25.520 --> 00:40:30.157
then a bunch of photo flash capacitors
in a gauntlet. 330 volts. You could dump

00:40:30.240 --> 00:40:31.997
the whole thing through this big thick

00:40:32.080 --> 00:40:36.077
gauge wire to two spring-loaded pegs uh

00:40:36.160 --> 00:40:39.197
on on on the front of the fist. And like

00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:41.837
if you punched like if you punched a

00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:46.557
plate of metal, it would leave hu
a blast of sparks, a loud, you know, loud

00:40:46.640 --> 00:40:51.117
explosion, shower sparks, and it would
leave big pits in the metal. And uh I

00:40:51.200 --> 00:40:54.477
did use it on myself a couple times. And
you know, it doesn't blow poles in you.

00:40:54.560 --> 00:40:57.357
It just really, really, really works

00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:59.757
your muscles. And I was too young to

00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:04.077
recognize that high amperage electrical

00:41:04.160 --> 00:41:08.237
weapons are extraordinarily dangerous.
I had absolutely no idea how dangerous

00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:12.077
what I was building was. I I knew I knew
enough to be dangerous and not enough to

00:41:12.160 --> 00:41:15.320
be safe.

00:41:15.520 --> 00:41:19.117
I know everybody out there has to be

00:41:19.200 --> 00:41:21.357
just as frustrated as I am when it comes

00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:23.517
to the BS and the rhetoric that the

00:41:23.600 --> 00:41:26.157
mainstream media continuously tries to

00:41:26.240 --> 00:41:29.197
force feed us. And I also know how

00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:33.757
frustrating it can be to try to find
some type of a reliable news source.

00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:37.117
It's getting really hard to find
the truth. and what's going on in the

00:41:37.200 --> 00:41:39.037
country and in the world. And so, one

00:41:39.120 --> 00:41:41.437
thing we've done here at Shawn Ryan Show

00:41:41.520 --> 00:41:45.277
is we are developing our newsletter.

00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:49.677
And the first contributor to the
newsletter that we have is a woman,

00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:54.237
former CIA targeter. Some of you may
know her as Sarah Adams, call sign

00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:58.877
superb bad. She's made two different
appearances here on the Shawn Ryan Show.

00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:00.797
and some of the stuff that she has

00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:05.917
uncovered and broke on this show is just

00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:09.277
absolutely mind-blowing.

00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:12.317
And so I've asked her if she would

00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:17.197
contribute to the newsletter and give
us a weekly intelligence brief. So it's

00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:19.837
going to be all things terrorists,
how terrorists are coming up through the

00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:23.277
southern border, how they're entering
the country, how they're traveling, what

00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:27.117
these different terrorist organizations
throughout the world are up to. And

00:42:27.200 --> 00:42:28.957
here's the best part. The newsletter is

00:42:29.040 --> 00:42:31.437
actually free. We're not going to spam

00:42:31.520 --> 00:42:34.477
you. It's about one newsletter a week,

00:42:34.560 --> 00:42:38.717
maybe two if we release two shows.
The only other thing that's going to be in

00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:42.317
there besides the intel brief is if
we have a new product or something like

00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:44.877
that. But

00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:48.317
like I said, it's a free CIA

00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:50.557
intelligence brief. Sign up. Links in

00:42:50.640 --> 00:42:53.197
the description or in the comments.

00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:57.000
We'll see you in the newsletter.

00:42:57.680 --> 00:43:01.277
Did you hit anything with it?
>> Oh, just myself. Just myself. Just

00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:04.637
myself. [laughter] Um,
I ended up building a covert version

00:43:04.720 --> 00:43:08.877
that was a uh it was a it was a
highlighter pen that I put three photo

00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:13.837
flash capacitors into the body of.
Kept the front of the of the of the

00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:16.717
highlighter inside. So, it was still
a working highlighter. And then on the

00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:20.157
end, it had two tiny little metal
prongs. And I could touch it to an

00:43:20.240 --> 00:43:24.077
external charger, charge it up, and now
I had a pen I could carry in my pocket.

00:43:24.160 --> 00:43:29.677
And if you touch that to somebody, it it
was it was it was just awful. Um and uh

00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:33.437
it would it would like it would leave
like real serious burns on your skin.

00:43:33.520 --> 00:43:37.837
And uh I'm I'm I'm very lucky that I
didn't wipe myself out then and there.

00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:41.837
But yeah, I was always I was into
building weapons. I was into building

00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:45.117
building uh I was doing a lot of game
console modification. I started Mod

00:43:45.200 --> 00:43:48.877
Retro because I was really into this
hobby called portableizing, which is

00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:51.917
turning vintage game consoles into

00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:55.917
self-contained handheld portables.
like portable Nintendo 64 handhelds, uh

00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:58.237
portable Super Nintendo handhelds,

00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:03.277
combining the best of modern technology
with these retro systems. And uh that

00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:06.317
was that was the kind of the the
foundation that led to me getting into

00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:09.117
virtual reality, which >> how did
you I mean, how do you get into

00:44:09.200 --> 00:44:13.517
that? What age are you? >> So, I got
into VR when I was about 14 years old.

00:44:13.600 --> 00:44:15.197
>> Not VR, just the regular weapons.

00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:17.837
>> Oh, regular >> not regular
weapons. I thought you were

00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:22.637
going to say bow and arrow and spears
and stuff. Uh the the see for me I was I

00:44:22.720 --> 00:44:25.837
was never really even interested in like
the wielding of the weapon. It was in

00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:30.237
the building of the weapon. Like when I
watch a James Bond movie, the cool part

00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:33.597
that most appealed to me like I'm
not imagining that I'm James Bond. I'm

00:44:33.680 --> 00:44:37.357
imagining that I'm Q. Like that that's
the that was the cool thing to me. It

00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:41.517
was it was building these things
that did things that nobody expected that

00:44:41.600 --> 00:44:45.917
nobody had ever seen before. allowing
James Bond to do things that, you know,

00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:49.757
would allow him to outmaneuver
or outsmart or outgun his opponent. And so

00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:53.597
that that was that was that was kind
of that was I was interested in all these

00:44:53.680 --> 00:44:57.437
weird exotic weapons like high-powered
lasers and high voltage stuff and

00:44:57.520 --> 00:45:00.957
electromagnetic accelerators,
not because they're effective weapons, but

00:45:01.040 --> 00:45:05.197
because they are a potential path to
weapons that allow you to do things that

00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:08.157
conventional weapons hand. If I had just
been interested in weapons, I I would

00:45:08.240 --> 00:45:11.117
have just bought a Glock, right?
You know, that's Well, it's hard to buy a

00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:14.237
GOP when you're 12 years old, but you
know, that's if if you actually just

00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:18.477
want to if you just want to shoot
somebody, you know, you just existing

00:45:18.560 --> 00:45:22.237
weapons are pretty good.
They're pretty good

00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:24.557
>> anytime outdoors or anything.

00:45:24.640 --> 00:45:26.717
>> Yeah. So, you know, I I grew up uh

00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:31.837
sailing small boats, so like dingies.
Uh the boat that we sail in in Long Beach,

00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:35.277
it was it was called a Naples Sabbat,
which originally was like basically

00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.717
designed as like a tiny very short
little boat that you would put on the

00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:42.637
back of like uh you know, like
a sailboat or a power boat and just used

00:45:42.720 --> 00:45:46.957
to get back and forth between land and
the boat. And then someone decided, hey,

00:45:47.040 --> 00:45:49.277
wouldn't it be funny if we uh if we made

00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:52.477
kids race these in a racing league? And

00:45:52.560 --> 00:45:57.117
uh that's that's more or less how it
all started. Um so I I was racing Naples

00:45:57.200 --> 00:46:00.397
Sabbaths when I was a kid. Then I later
laser got later I got into type of boat

00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:01.997
called lasers which are they're an

00:46:02.080 --> 00:46:05.197
Olympic sailing class boat. Um and I I

00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:09.357
liked sailing those. I then later tried
team sailing where you know you're one

00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:11.597
of multiple people on a boat. I didn't

00:46:11.680 --> 00:46:14.077
like it because when you're on a team

00:46:14.160 --> 00:46:18.477
boat it's possible to succeed or fail on

00:46:18.560 --> 00:46:20.717
the basis of other people's work. Like

00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:25.757
you can fail and the boat still wins.
uh or somebody else can fail or you think

00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:29.437
they fail then you blame your loss
on them and I I found it was healthier for

00:46:29.520 --> 00:46:32.077
me to be a solo sailor because then if I

00:46:32.160 --> 00:46:36.557
win it's all me and if I lose that's
all me too like you can't you can't make

00:46:36.640 --> 00:46:40.557
excuses for yourself and say well only
reason I lost is because of you know you

00:46:40.640 --> 00:46:43.677
know Alex on the other side of the boat
you know that's why we really lost cuz

00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:47.197
that guy wasn't pulling his weight when
it's just you in the boat you're like I

00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:50.877
lost I >> I didn't try
hard enough I didn't

00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:53.517
practice hard enough and so uh That was

00:46:53.600 --> 00:46:56.237
that was a I I I really like sailing.

00:46:56.320 --> 00:46:59.997
It's a phys it's a physical
and mental sport, which is still fun.

00:47:00.080 --> 00:47:02.557
>> I have not sailed in years. I I I I've

00:47:02.640 --> 00:47:03.997
thought often about getting back into

00:47:04.080 --> 00:47:07.597
it, but I'm just so busy with Anderol

00:47:07.680 --> 00:47:11.757
and like sailing to me is not a fun
relaxing activity. It's it's it is an

00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:14.397
intense competitive sport and I am so

00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:19.517
out of practice and so physically inept
compared to what I was that I I know I

00:47:19.600 --> 00:47:22.397
would be totally non-competitive. And so
I I that's why it's it's hard for me to

00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:24.157
it's hard for me to go and go and do it.

00:47:24.240 --> 00:47:27.277
I'm I'm kind I think I'm going to get
back into sailing once I'm once I'm all

00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:30.877
old and used up. Once I've once I've
I've I've made my contribution to

00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:34.957
society, the candle has burned down
to just the puddle of wax. I'll get back

00:47:35.040 --> 00:47:38.717
into sailing. >> Nice. Nice.
>> I like power boats, too. That's the

00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:41.197
other problem is >> Yeah.
I heard you got a Mark 5.

00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:44.157
>> I do. I You've probably
been on Mark 5 before.

00:47:44.240 --> 00:47:47.757
>> I've been on a lot of Mark Fives.
So, I I bought a I bought a Mark 5 special

00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:50.157
operations craft from the naval special

00:47:50.240 --> 00:47:53.437
warfare guys. And uh I bought it. It was

00:47:53.520 --> 00:47:57.677
it was like asis, no warranty, just like
getting rid of it. And there was no use

00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:01.197
certificate cuz they were basically
selling it as scrap metal. And the nice

00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:04.077
thing about that is I was able to get
it and then put a ton of money into

00:48:04.160 --> 00:48:07.117
reactivating everything, getting it
going again. As far as I know, I'm the

00:48:07.200 --> 00:48:11.357
only civilian owner and operator of a
working Mark 5. There's there's a guy

00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:15.197
who has one with no engines in it that's
sitting on the side of the freeway uh in

00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:18.077
in a in a boatyard in San Diego, but I I

00:48:18.160 --> 00:48:22.477
I think I'm the only guy who's actually
spent all the money to to to make one go

00:48:22.560 --> 00:48:25.277
again outside of the government.
And I'll tell you that boat was that was

00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:28.797
that boat was made for people with
government wallets, not not uh not not

00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:32.717
not civilian wallets, but >> I
mean it's such a cool boat, right? I

00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:37.197
mean it's it's ridic it's the fastest
boat that the Navy ever built. So, uh,

00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:39.197
you know, it was built explicitly for

00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:42.397
Navy Seal insertion and extraction. Uh,

00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:45.677
so really, really fast, tons of storage,

00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:49.597
really, really durable, really, you know,
incredibly bulletproof drivetrain

00:48:49.680 --> 00:48:54.317
and and engines, and it'll put any
weapons on it. So that was one of that

00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:58.477
was part of my saga is they cut off all
the weapons mounts even now they they

00:48:58.560 --> 00:49:02.557
took off the weapons and then cut
off all the weapons mounts uh and hard

00:49:02.640 --> 00:49:07.597
points because that would have been like
you know ITAR restricted arms type stuff

00:49:07.680 --> 00:49:11.677
but we were able to find the contract
number for the people who made the

00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:13.357
original mounting brackets and so we

00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:15.197
just contacted that machine shop and

00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:20.637
said hey we need part number 462571.

00:49:20.720 --> 00:49:25.357
you still have the CAD for that. They
said it's not even in CAD. This is, you

00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:28.717
know, this is like this is all draw
paper drawings, but yeah, we got the

00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:33.117
drawings and we said, we we want you
to make us four of that part. And so, we

00:49:33.200 --> 00:49:35.277
got uh brand new weapons mounts made.

00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:40.077
And I've and I have a I have replica M2s
that were made by a company that makes

00:49:40.160 --> 00:49:43.357
Hollywood props that I keep on it when
it's just parked in front of my house.

00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:48.397
But I keep the real M2s nearby so
that if we go out into uh you know out of

00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:50.717
California state waters,
we could put the real M2s on.

00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:53.997
>> Damn, that's awesome.
>> It is really awesome. It's one It It's

00:49:54.080 --> 00:49:57.037
one of those things where it's just
when you're out there on that thing and

00:49:57.120 --> 00:50:01.277
you're blasting along at 50 knots
and you're just eating up waves like it's

00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:05.997
nothing. We went on a few really cool
trips on it. Uh there was one trip where

00:50:06.080 --> 00:50:09.837
when when the hurricane was passing
by California recently, there were these

00:50:09.920 --> 00:50:13.277
huge, you know, waves and swell offshore.
We said, "You know what? We're

00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:16.397
just going to take it out." Like,
supposedly this thing can do 40 knots in

00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:18.717
Sea State 4. We're going to go do it.

00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:21.917
That was the craziest [__] I've ever
done on a boat. It was insane. I mean,

00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:26.397
think like coming off a waves, diving
bound into the next wave, and the whole

00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:28.477
thing goes over the entire boat and you

00:50:28.560 --> 00:50:29.757
shoot out the other side and you're

00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:33.437
still going 30 knots. Um, we also went

00:50:33.520 --> 00:50:37.357
to go see the USS Kittyhawk,
the last of the US,

00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:40.477
the last of the United States
conventionally powered super carriers.

00:50:40.560 --> 00:50:42.397
So not nuclearpowered. They were towing

00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:45.597
it from Breton, Washington down around

00:50:45.680 --> 00:50:47.757
the bottom of South America, then back

00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:49.837
up to Galveastston, Texas for for for

00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:55.117
scrapping. And uh they didn't have
any transponders on the boat or the tow

00:50:55.200 --> 00:50:57.917
because they didn't want Looks to come
do it. And they were doing it offshore.

00:50:58.000 --> 00:50:59.117
You they didn't want people coming out

00:50:59.200 --> 00:51:03.677
to get in the way. And uh we we got a

00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:07.277
hot tip from a buddy of mine as to when
it was leaving and how fast they were

00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:10.557
going. And so we charted out where it
was going to be and we guessed pretty

00:51:10.640 --> 00:51:14.797
well. So we just went out uh when it
was passing by Southern California and we

00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:18.557
eventually found it way offshore. It
was so funny cuz we were approaching the

00:51:18.640 --> 00:51:22.557
toeboat and before they could make
visual contact with us. They must have

00:51:22.640 --> 00:51:26.957
seen us on radar and they radioed us
and said that this was a military tow

00:51:27.040 --> 00:51:31.197
operation and to stay clear. But I knew
for a fact from talking to my buddies

00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:34.717
that it had already been cleared from DoD
possession and this was just the tow

00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:39.197
company talking [__] And like they they
were like arguably illegal what they

00:51:39.280 --> 00:51:42.957
were saying. And so we just didn't
respond. And then about, you know, 1

00:51:43.040 --> 00:51:46.317
minute later, we make visual contact
with them and they see, you know, a big,

00:51:46.400 --> 00:51:49.597
you know, gray navy boat blasting
towards them at 50 knots. And they shut

00:51:49.680 --> 00:51:52.717
up and they didn't say another word.
I think they were like, "Oh shit." Like

00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:56.877
damn. >> They were like, "We shouldn't we
shouldn't we shouldn't have uh shouldn't

00:51:56.960 --> 00:52:01.677
have, you know, puffed ourselves up like
like that." And uh so we it was really

00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:04.797
cool. We got to we you ripped right
by the boat. But we got some really good

00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:08.477
pictures and then we launched
a fixedwing drone off the back of the Mark

00:52:08.560 --> 00:52:11.277
5 and we did a touchandgo
on the runway of the Kitty.

00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:13.837
>> Oh my gosh, I bet those
people are [__] their pants.

00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:16.797
>> Well, the thing is you'll never get
another like the military is not really

00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:20.557
in the business of letting you fly your,
you know, remote control airplanes off

00:52:20.640 --> 00:52:22.717
of aircraft carriers. It was so cool.

00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:25.117
And cuz we're out in the middle
of the ocean, too. So, it's not like we're

00:52:25.200 --> 00:52:27.997
doing it like off like, you know,
a docked ship or something, which they

00:52:28.080 --> 00:52:31.597
have done that with like the USS Midway
in San Diego. They've let people take

00:52:31.680 --> 00:52:35.117
off little RC planes from the deck,
but it's just sitting at the pier. It's so

00:52:35.200 --> 00:52:38.157
cool to be flying an RC plane FPV and,

00:52:38.240 --> 00:52:41.277
you know, going down approaching the

00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:45.357
carrier touch and go and uh
unfortunately we we tried to land the

00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:49.997
plane back on the Mark 5, but we we we
uh we we messed up and the plane went

00:52:50.080 --> 00:52:51.597
into the water. So, I had the drink.

00:52:51.680 --> 00:52:54.877
>> We had to come back around and I had
to jump into the water and get the plane

00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:59.037
and keep it I had to hold it above
my head to keep the memory card out of the

00:52:59.120 --> 00:53:02.077
water so that it wouldn't uh so it
wouldn't get destroyed. But we got the

00:53:02.160 --> 00:53:05.837
video. We got the video. >> Very cool.
Very cool. So, when you were

00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:09.757
did you when you were
homeschooled? I mean,

00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:13.277
how how do they keep up with you?
How did your mom keep up with you?

00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:15.117
>> I was really lucky in that there were

00:53:15.200 --> 00:53:18.557
certain things that I was I had I had to

00:53:18.640 --> 00:53:20.637
have beat into my head. There's other

00:53:20.720 --> 00:53:25.757
things where I was just interested
for my own reasons and very very good at

00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:29.357
self-directed learning. Like I mean I've
read I read I read thousands of books

00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:32.157
before I was 13.
>> Literally thousands of books.

00:53:32.240 --> 00:53:35.517
>> What kind of books?
>> Everything. The classics, science

00:53:35.600 --> 00:53:39.917
fiction, the art of the deal.
Uh you know I just

00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:44.637
like the entire gamut of everything that
you would want. So like we were we were

00:53:44.720 --> 00:53:48.957
uh you check I was checking out lots
of books from the library. Also lots of

00:53:49.040 --> 00:53:51.837
people giving me books. Everyone knew
that Palmer liked to read and so people

00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:54.557
would sometimes buy me new books, but

00:53:54.640 --> 00:53:57.117
more oftenly you'd have uh especially

00:53:57.200 --> 00:53:59.997
like adult friends just like dumping

00:54:00.080 --> 00:54:02.477
massive quantities of books. My mom also

00:54:02.560 --> 00:54:04.877
uh you she she managed to get uh on

00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:07.197
whatever registry Barnes & Noble uses

00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:11.917
for uh for teachers. And so she had
the educators discount for buying stuff in

00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:15.677
Barnes & Noble. And so you're I I forget
what the discount was, but it was some

00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:19.277
extraordinary discount. Barnes &
Noble did a lot for a lot for teachers,

00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:23.757
especially back then. And so, uh, yeah,
I just read and read and read and read.

00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:27.757
And so, c certain topics I was pretty I
was I was I I was okay with like I loved

00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:30.557
science, I love engineering, I loved

00:54:30.640 --> 00:54:33.437
chemistry, math, like like like real

00:54:33.520 --> 00:54:36.797
math, never really a fan. Um, you know,

00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:40.637
there was like uh uh uh handwriting,
which you know, at the time that was

00:54:40.720 --> 00:54:43.357
actually still a thing that they were
you insisting that kids needed to learn

00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:46.877
in school. um you know doing cursive
and they're like, "Oh, you're definitely

00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:51.037
going to use cursive."
Now they don't even teach it anymore.

00:54:51.120 --> 00:54:52.877
Man, what what a waste of time that was.

00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:57.277
But uh >> yeah, I was I was I would say my
mom didn't keep up with me on the things

00:54:57.360 --> 00:55:00.397
that I was interested in, but she didn't
need to try. She knew that I was going

00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:03.037
to be fine on those. And uh on the other

00:55:03.120 --> 00:55:07.837
stuff, you know, my mom was able to was
able to beat me beat me into submission.

00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:10.557
>> Right on. Right on. >> You know,
my mom's no dummy. She has a

00:55:10.640 --> 00:55:14.557
master's degree. Yeah, she's a she's
a she's she's a she's a she she's a she's

00:55:14.640 --> 00:55:16.477
a sharp she's a sharp one on her own.

00:55:16.560 --> 00:55:20.317
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, did you grow up in I
mean did you grow up in a middle class

00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:23.277
family? >> Yeah. So,
my dad was a car salesman.

00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:27.997
Sometimes new, sometimes used. It depend
depended on the time. Uh you like like

00:55:28.080 --> 00:55:31.757
the 2008 financial crisis was really
really tough for the car industry. So,

00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:34.957
there were there were there were some
times where it was really tough cuz

00:55:35.040 --> 00:55:38.957
dealers were laying people you can't
keep all your sales people employed when

00:55:39.040 --> 00:55:42.557
people aren't buying cars. It's like
that's just the way that it is. But he

00:55:42.640 --> 00:55:44.237
sold mostly domestic cars. So, Buick,

00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:48.157
Pontiac, GMC, Hummer, and then later uh

00:55:48.240 --> 00:55:52.557
he kind of had to shift into selling
uh import vehicles because that was the

00:55:52.640 --> 00:55:56.237
only thing that was actually moving
volume. So, like had to had to get into

00:55:56.320 --> 00:55:59.837
selling Korean and Japanese cars. And it
wasn't really what he wanted to do, but

00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:04.717
it was it was the only it was the only
way to make it work. And uh my parents

00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:07.437
decided, you know, my mom would stay
at home and he would work. So, we were a

00:56:07.520 --> 00:56:09.677
single income household. I don't I
don't want to say like we were poor or

00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:12.397
anything, but like when you when you got

00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:16.717
one person working and they're one job
they're working as a car salesman, uh

00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:20.717
you know, you got to you got to you got
to sharpen your pencil sometimes. And

00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:25.037
sometime like one of the things my dad
would do is in his spare time he'd buy

00:56:25.120 --> 00:56:29.277
used cars. I know it's funny. You sell
used cars all day, then you go home,

00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:32.797
>> you buy used cars and you fix them up,
drive them around for a few months, and

00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:35.517
then you sell them for more than you
bought them for. And that gets you a

00:56:35.600 --> 00:56:38.797
little little more cash. That was that
was one of the ways that I ended up

00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:42.957
becoming mechanically inclined was
helping my dad work on, you know, motor

00:56:43.040 --> 00:56:48.317
homes and vans and uh you know, old old
crusty BMWs. You you you you learn a lot

00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:52.397
when you actually interact with the
world and machines with your own two

00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:56.477
hands. >> And you went
to you started college at

00:56:56.560 --> 00:56:59.437
what age? >> You know,
I I I honestly I'm not sure.

00:56:59.520 --> 00:57:03.117
It was when I was 14 or 15. It was it
was it was around it was that summer. Um

00:57:03.200 --> 00:57:06.477
but I don't I don't remember exactly.
It would it would have been right around

00:57:06.560 --> 00:57:09.277
when I was either turning 15 or almost 15.

00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:11.117
>> So, was that remote
or did you actually go?

00:57:11.200 --> 00:57:13.677
>> No, no, I went I
cuz Yeah, I was a I was

00:57:13.760 --> 00:57:16.477
I was a commuter student. I wasn't like
[clears throat] I wasn't on campus, you

00:57:16.560 --> 00:57:20.797
know, I was still living at home. Um,
but no, I was I was I was actually going

00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:24.157
to school and I was The funny thing
is when you're So, here's the way it works

00:57:24.240 --> 00:57:27.117
in California. High school students are

00:57:27.200 --> 00:57:29.437
allowed to attend community college

00:57:29.520 --> 00:57:31.837
courses and state college courses by

00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:34.237
law. The law says you have to allow them

00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:37.677
to take those courses. Um, but there's

00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:41.437
two requirements. One, it has to have
sign off from the principal of your

00:57:41.520 --> 00:57:44.717
school. This is why most kids don't do it.
And by the way, taking college

00:57:44.800 --> 00:57:47.437
courses when you're a high school kid,
it's amazing because you get college

00:57:47.520 --> 00:57:50.717
credit and high school credit at the same
time. It's like AP courses, except

00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:53.997
a lot of these college courses are
actually easier than AP courses in my

00:57:54.080 --> 00:57:56.957
estimation. Um, it's just true. Look, it

00:57:57.040 --> 00:57:59.037
like AP kids are all motivated.

00:57:59.120 --> 00:58:01.197
Community college, you get everybody.

00:58:01.280 --> 00:58:05.437
Um, so the good news is my mom had, you

00:58:05.520 --> 00:58:08.797
know, she like we were registered with
a homeschool group that basically just

00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:12.157
signed off on all the paperwork. They're
like, "So I I just got everything signed

00:58:12.240 --> 00:58:15.277
off on." And normally like schools don't
want to sign off on this. Principles

00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:20.077
won't sign off because they lose out
on revenue proportional to the classes

00:58:20.160 --> 00:58:23.117
you're not taking at school. What like
what principal is basically going to

00:58:23.200 --> 00:58:26.397
sign off on a bunch of kids going to all
the local community colleges when his

00:58:26.480 --> 00:58:29.677
school is going to lose the money?
So, it's a totally [__] up system that

00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:34.157
incentivizes keeping kids trapped in the
high schools rather than allowing them

00:58:34.240 --> 00:58:37.277
to specialize and take community college
courses. The second thing you have to do

00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:41.517
is you have to you basically
have last priority for

00:58:41.600 --> 00:58:44.637
enrolling in classes. Like you you know
when you were enrolling in classes, you

00:58:44.720 --> 00:58:47.277
know, there's popular classes where you
had to be like on you had to be on your

00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:50.077
on your game and actually like enroll
in it quickly, right? You couldn't like

00:58:50.160 --> 00:58:53.197
wait two weeks and then get around to it
because the class would be full. The

00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:57.517
problem is that when you are a high
schooler taking college classes, you

00:58:57.600 --> 00:59:00.957
don't even the the enrollment window
doesn't open until it's been open for

00:59:01.040 --> 00:59:04.957
like four weeks for all of the proper
students. And what that means is that

00:59:05.040 --> 00:59:08.077
every course you want to go into
generally is already full. And so the

00:59:08.160 --> 00:59:11.437
only way to make it into course is you
have to go and petition into the course.

00:59:11.520 --> 00:59:15.437
You have to show up on the first day
of class with your petition form. And then

00:59:15.520 --> 00:59:18.717
usually you like you you're there
with maybe some other people petitioning,

00:59:18.800 --> 00:59:22.077
sometimes not. And then at the end of
the class, you talk to the professor and

00:59:22.160 --> 00:59:25.757
try to convince him to let him into
your class. And uh so I had to get really

00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:30.477
good at that. I every single course I did,
I had to as like a 15-year-old kid

00:59:30.560 --> 00:59:34.317
talk to the professor and I would make
sure to do research on them. I would

00:59:34.400 --> 00:59:38.157
make sure to do research on what work
they might have done in academia. And I

00:59:38.240 --> 00:59:39.837
would I'd have I'd have to play the game

00:59:39.920 --> 00:59:43.277
like, "Oh, Prof. Professor Kraz, I'm

00:59:43.360 --> 00:59:45.997
such a huge fan of your work on the

00:59:46.080 --> 00:59:51.037
local geologics of the estuaries in Long
Beach. I've been reading your papers

00:59:51.120 --> 00:59:54.477
lately and I really think you make the
argument better than your colleagues at

00:59:54.560 --> 00:59:58.317
UCLA." And they say, "Oh, well, thank
you." I say, "Mr. Kraz, I would really

00:59:58.400 --> 01:00:01.997
love to take your geology course.
In fact, I have to take it for my general

01:00:02.080 --> 01:00:05.837
education requirements. I know your class
is full, but is there any way that

01:00:05.920 --> 01:00:09.757
I could, you know, that I that I could
we could add an extra seat? Is there any

01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:13.357
way that I could stay for a week or two
while we wait for students to inevitably

01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:17.677
drop out and I can take their seats? And
actually, nine times out of 10, I I was

01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:21.437
able to make it work. And there there
were times where I was, you know, just

01:00:21.520 --> 01:00:24.237
sitting in the back of the class
or standing in the back of the classroom

01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:27.997
for the first week or two >> and then
someone would drop, bam, I got

01:00:28.080 --> 01:00:31.597
my seat and I wouldn't have to stand
anymore, which was good cuz I was fat at

01:00:31.680 --> 01:00:33.437
the time. Uh this was remember I became

01:00:33.520 --> 01:00:35.917
an indoor kid. I stopped exercising and

01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:39.037
so uh yeah that's how I know that was a

01:00:39.120 --> 01:00:41.277
long a long ramble but when you're a kid

01:00:41.360 --> 01:00:43.997
going to college it is is it is as weird

01:00:44.080 --> 01:00:46.717
as you'd think. It it is it is like it

01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:51.037
is like a situational comedy every
single day cuz you're like a 15year-old

01:00:51.120 --> 01:00:54.397
kid. And like it's obvious too. I wasn't
like a I wasn't one of those kids where

01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:58.477
I'm like you know a towering brute
and who knows if he's 30. Like it's it's

01:00:58.560 --> 01:01:00.797
like what's that 15year-old kid doing?

01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:02.477
They're still going
through puberty over here.

01:01:02.560 --> 01:01:07.357
>> It's that was exactly the situation.
And uh it was especially funny in things

01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:10.877
like when I was going to Long Beach City
College and taking robotics courses and

01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:13.997
you basically have a whole bunch
of people who are like you know older guys

01:01:14.080 --> 01:01:17.837
mostly getting uh you
know post postgraduate

01:01:17.920 --> 01:01:21.997
master's degree type work and you have
a 15-year-old kid and the way the class

01:01:22.080 --> 01:01:25.677
works is you're all on teams building
robots and so you have to pull your

01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:28.877
weight like and like nobody really
wants you on your team when you're a

01:01:28.960 --> 01:01:32.157
15-year-old kid when you're kind
of going in blind. You're like, why do I

01:01:32.240 --> 01:01:35.437
want to be gimped by this teenager when

01:01:35.520 --> 01:01:39.277
we're all like, you know, professional
level people often already working jobs

01:01:39.360 --> 01:01:41.437
and taking this taking this night class?

01:01:41.520 --> 01:01:45.517
And so I really had to work hard
to stand out and and and prove and prove

01:01:45.600 --> 01:01:47.997
that I could keep up with with the adults.

01:01:48.080 --> 01:01:49.437
>> Did you have a problem keeping up?

01:01:49.520 --> 01:01:52.637
>> No, I had no problem. >> Did they
have a problem keeping up with you?

01:01:52.720 --> 01:01:57.517
>> I think that as soon as it was I did
a good job of making it clear that I could

01:01:57.600 --> 01:02:01.517
keep up pretty quickly. And as soon as
that was clear, then I was like the most

01:02:01.600 --> 01:02:05.197
hilarious novelty ever. Like ever
every everyone thought it was just the

01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:08.797
funniest thing ever, you know? Uh as I
as I got older and then I'm like 15,

01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:12.637
then 16, then 17 and 18. Now I'm just
the age of all the freshmen and it's not

01:02:12.720 --> 01:02:15.677
interesting anymore. But at the beginning
it was definitely pretty interesting.

01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:18.317
>> But you're not in freshman
classes at that age.

01:02:18.400 --> 01:02:21.197
>> Um not at that point. Well, it depends.

01:02:21.280 --> 01:02:24.317
So, what I the way that I did this
and the way I would actually recommend

01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:27.597
basically everybody do it if you can
scam your principal into signing your

01:02:27.680 --> 01:02:30.397
paperwork is the moment you are eligible

01:02:30.480 --> 01:02:34.717
when you're 14 years old, start taking
community college courses. And what you

01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:38.317
should do is take all the general
education courses first cuz they're

01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:41.677
generally easier. You have to do them
no matter what you're going to do as an

01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:45.197
adult, right? Like if I if I become
a journalist or a mechanical engineer or a

01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:48.477
pilot, I'm still going to have to take
history. So, just start with all that

01:02:48.560 --> 01:02:53.437
crap and just do a few years of the
crappy all general ed courses and then

01:02:53.520 --> 01:02:56.797
you can decide at the end what you're
actually going to do and you can then

01:02:56.880 --> 01:03:00.477
transfer all those units to where where
whatever school you're actually going

01:03:00.560 --> 01:03:03.357
and that's what I did. I transferred
all those units from community college to

01:03:03.440 --> 01:03:07.357
Cal State Long Beach and went
into the journalism program.

01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:09.997
>> How did you make friends?
I mean, >> you know, it

01:03:10.080 --> 01:03:13.997
>> doesn't sound like you're surrounded
by anybody your age. Everybody's older.

01:03:14.080 --> 01:03:17.437
>> So, a few things.
one, I was that you can't do.

01:03:17.520 --> 01:03:21.197
>> I was lucky. I you know, I had a lot of
local friends. So, like I I'll admit it.

01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:24.877
I wasn't making my friends at college,
right? Like, people are fine with the

01:03:24.960 --> 01:03:29.277
weird 15-year-old kid on their robotics
team, but they're not going to go hang

01:03:29.360 --> 01:03:32.157
out with them after school. Like,
nobody in their 20s like, "Oh, I just love

01:03:32.240 --> 01:03:35.337
hanging out with 15-y old kids."
And if they are, something's wrong, right?

01:03:35.420 --> 01:03:39.197
[laughter] Uh I was I was lucky.
I wasn't running I wasn't running into any

01:03:39.280 --> 01:03:43.197
of those guys. Um but I was lucky. I had
a lot of friends I grew up with. had a

01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:47.037
lot of friends from doing homeschool
stuff, but honestly, most of my friends

01:03:47.120 --> 01:03:50.077
were internet friends. Like I
was running an internet form called Mod

01:03:50.160 --> 01:03:55.517
Retro. I think all my best friends were
internet friends. And uh it actually

01:03:55.600 --> 01:03:59.037
worked out pretty well for me. It's
like when I started Oculus and I started

01:03:59.120 --> 01:04:03.277
Oculus when I was 19 years old,
almost everyone who worked there and this

01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:04.717
Oculus is my virtual reality headset

01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:07.677
company. Almost everyone I hired was

01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:12.397
friends and moderators and administrator
staff from Mod Retro. We were all

01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:15.757
teenagers. Like, we're all a bunch
of teenage dudes who have known each other

01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:20.077
for like five or six years on the
internet. And we basically decided to

01:04:20.160 --> 01:04:23.917
start a VR company together. I I'll
never forget when I called up my friend

01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:26.717
Chris, who was one of the early

01:04:26.800 --> 01:04:31.117
administrators and moderators on Mod
Retro and a good online friend. I'd

01:04:31.200 --> 01:04:35.677
literally never met him in person. And I
called him up and said, "Chris, what are

01:04:35.760 --> 01:04:40.077
you doing this fall?" He said, "Oh,
I'm I'm I'm probably going to uh I'm

01:04:40.160 --> 01:04:43.357
probably going to work all summer at the
local pizza place and then I'm starting

01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:46.557
school this fall. I'm going off
to college." I said, "No, you're not.

01:04:46.640 --> 01:04:50.397
You're going to come with me and we're
going to start this VR company that I've

01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:52.797
been working on, Oculus." And that was

01:04:52.880 --> 01:04:55.437
on a Friday. And that Monday, I rolled

01:04:55.520 --> 01:04:58.637
up in my crappy minivan to his house,

01:04:58.720 --> 01:05:03.037
which was 2 and 1/2 hours away from mine.
He piled all of his stuff into it,

01:05:03.120 --> 01:05:07.117
and we drove away. And his mom
couldn't believe it. She she Oh my god.

01:05:07.200 --> 01:05:11.437
>> He He told her, "Mom, I'm uh I'm
dropping I'm not going to school. I'm

01:05:11.520 --> 01:05:15.357
going to start a company with Palmer
from the internet instead." And she's

01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:19.197
just like, >> "Okay."
Like, "Sure." And she didn't

01:05:19.280 --> 01:05:20.797
understand that he was like imminently

01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:23.757
doing it that Monday. And so we moved

01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:28.237
into a motel that is now condemned
and has been torn. It was later condemned

01:05:28.320 --> 01:05:30.317
and torn down, but we we moved into the

01:05:30.400 --> 01:05:33.357
Seapport Marina Inn. And we lived there

01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:37.917
for the first few months of Oculus.
Like literally me and my internet buddies

01:05:38.000 --> 01:05:42.157
living in a crappy motel room starting
this company. And so I I I believe I

01:05:42.240 --> 01:05:46.237
didn't have a problem with with uh
making friends. We just had problems uh

01:05:46.320 --> 01:05:47.597
seeing each other in real life.

01:05:47.680 --> 01:05:50.397
>> How old were you? >> That was I was 19.

01:05:50.480 --> 01:05:51.757
>> 19 years old. >> Yep.

01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:53.837
>> And did you complete college?

01:05:53.920 --> 01:05:57.677
>> No, I dropped out.
Um, I I went through,

01:05:57.760 --> 01:05:59.837
you know, I I I I had basically one

01:05:59.920 --> 01:06:03.677
semester and summer school left to get

01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:07.837
my degree and I had a series of

01:06:07.920 --> 01:06:11.037
technological breakthroughs in my
virtual reality hobby, which I've been

01:06:11.120 --> 01:06:13.917
working on. Like I said, I started
building VR headsets when I was 14 or 15

01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:17.917
as a hobby. And I would become obsessed
with virtual reality technology and

01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:21.757
trying to make it better. I I I believed
that the existing systems which cost

01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:24.877
hundreds of thousands of dollars
and were very heavy. I believe they were

01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:27.117
they had missed something. I I knew this

01:06:27.200 --> 01:06:32.157
had to be a crackable nut and there
weren't very many people working on VR

01:06:32.240 --> 01:06:35.197
tech. It was kind of a laughingstock
at the time. Everyone thought, "Oh, that's

01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:37.757
this dead, you know, technology. It'll

01:06:37.840 --> 01:06:39.917
never happen. Uh it was just a

01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:45.277
ridiculous fad of the '90s." And I still
believed in it. And over the course of

01:06:45.360 --> 01:06:48.397
years, I got better and better and better.
And then I had a series of

01:06:48.480 --> 01:06:52.557
technological breakthroughs that made
my headsets much cheaper, much lighter,

01:06:52.640 --> 01:06:56.717
much smaller than anything that anyone
had ever made. And for the first time

01:06:56.800 --> 01:07:01.197
when I showed it to my friends,
instead of them seeing my prototypes and

01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:04.237
saying that I was wasting my times,
they said, "Oh [__] I actually get it now.

01:07:04.320 --> 01:07:07.037
This is cool." And so I I had a choice.

01:07:07.120 --> 01:07:10.957
I could either stay in school and get my

01:07:11.040 --> 01:07:16.237
journalism degree or I could drop
out of school and start this company.

01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:18.397
And then there was there was actually it
was kind of two options. I could either

01:07:18.480 --> 01:07:23.197
drop out and start this company or I
could stay in school, get this degree,

01:07:23.280 --> 01:07:27.037
probably have to make use of that degree,
and I was terrified that in the

01:07:27.120 --> 01:07:31.357
process of delaying me working
on my real passion that somebody else was

01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:34.797
going to figure out what I had and they
were going to do it before I did. I I

01:07:34.880 --> 01:07:37.917
said, I don't have the time. I I need
to get this into the world right now.

01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:42.317
Because anyone there there were
literally thousands of people in the

01:07:42.400 --> 01:07:45.357
technology industry who could have had
the insights I had. The insights I had

01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:47.997
were not like Einstein level insights.

01:07:48.080 --> 01:07:51.997
They were the natural conclusion that any
smart person who was looking at the

01:07:52.080 --> 01:07:56.877
VR industry in 2011 in 2012 would have
made. Basically, there were certain

01:07:56.960 --> 01:08:00.877
components becoming available. Computer
power was increasing in a certain way

01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:05.037
where I could compensate for optical
distortion in real time on a graphics

01:08:05.120 --> 01:08:08.797
card shader and not have it take up very
much of my graphics rendering load. And

01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:13.277
I realized that if anyone smart happened
to glance in my direction that they were

01:08:13.360 --> 01:08:14.797
going to have all the same conclusions I

01:08:14.880 --> 01:08:20.637
did and I I knew I I needed to I
needed to take advantage of that.

01:08:20.720 --> 01:08:22.397
Good thing [clears throat] I did.
It was a >> Wow.

01:08:22.480 --> 01:08:25.037
>> And actually even better, it I I was

01:08:25.120 --> 01:08:27.997
right. So Sony ended up launching

01:08:28.080 --> 01:08:32.317
PlayStation VR a couple years later and it
was more or less built on exactly the

01:08:32.400 --> 01:08:35.517
same principles that I had. Now, I think
they copied a little bit from what I

01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:40.077
made public, but they also had
internally been working on VR for years.

01:08:40.160 --> 01:08:43.677
And so, it turns out there were people
in major companies who literally had

01:08:43.760 --> 01:08:45.757
come to the same conclusion I had. In

01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:51.037
fact, Sony made me a job offer before
I launched Oculus. Um, I I was open

01:08:51.120 --> 01:08:56.077
sourcing all of my work, publishing it
on the internet. And when uh when Sony

01:08:56.160 --> 01:08:59.517
>> Why were you doing that? Why were you
putting open- source information on the

01:08:59.600 --> 01:09:03.517
internet if you were worried people
were going to steal the idea? So, a few

01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:07.757
things. First, remember VR was just kind
of like a joke at the time. And I was

01:09:07.840 --> 01:09:10.877
working on it not as a job. I
was working on it as a hobby, right? I got

01:09:10.960 --> 01:09:14.077
into VR like I just wanted
to work on VR and make it good.

01:09:14.160 --> 01:09:17.197
>> And it's about it's it's not about

01:09:17.280 --> 01:09:21.997
>> it's guess there's two ways to look
at this. One is that if I put stuff out

01:09:22.080 --> 01:09:25.917
there, other people put stuff out there,
right? And then we all move faster

01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:30.237
together as a collective than me
hoarding all my information myself. But

01:09:30.320 --> 01:09:33.837
to be honest, it was just purely
cultural and I never thought it through.

01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:38.237
Remember, I started the mod retro forums
cuz I was interested in modifying game

01:09:38.320 --> 01:09:42.477
consoles, vintage computers. The social
currency of an internet forum is

01:09:42.560 --> 01:09:47.037
knowledge, right? How do you show off
on an internet forum that is built around

01:09:47.120 --> 01:09:50.477
engineering and product? You're
like building projects. You show your

01:09:50.560 --> 01:09:52.077
projects and you don't just show them.

01:09:52.160 --> 01:09:56.317
You say, "And here's why my project
is better than anyone else's. Let me tell

01:09:56.400 --> 01:09:58.397
you in detail how I built my power

01:09:58.480 --> 01:10:03.437
management system." Notice how I
modified this LCD to not use a compact

01:10:03.520 --> 01:10:08.157
fluorescent illuminator, but instead
uses the latest white LEDs from Nichia

01:10:08.240 --> 01:10:09.757
to achieve much lower power consumption.

01:10:09.840 --> 01:10:11.757
And then all the other nerds say, "Oh my

01:10:11.840 --> 01:10:14.877
god, this guy is a god." Like that is

01:10:14.960 --> 01:10:18.157
the the social currency of nerd forums

01:10:18.240 --> 01:10:22.077
in the 2000s was prowess. And so if you

01:10:22.160 --> 01:10:26.717
didn't prove your prowess, you're nobody.
And so I I honestly that that

01:10:26.800 --> 01:10:29.277
was the culture I grew up in on the
internet. That's that's how the internet

01:10:29.360 --> 01:10:33.517
was back then. And it's very different
than today. Today it's about flash and

01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:37.997
style. You make a cool video and like
it's it's it's not really necessarily

01:10:38.080 --> 01:10:42.077
about going deep into the technology
that you did or the design decisions.

01:10:42.160 --> 01:10:45.597
Also, you know what was common in the
2000s? You wouldn't do it today where

01:10:45.680 --> 01:10:49.197
you go on and you post, you know, your
final completed thing and hope it goes

01:10:49.280 --> 01:10:53.677
viral on TikTok. You would post updates
in a forum thread like every week. You

01:10:53.760 --> 01:10:57.117
say, "Here's my project update thread,
guys. Here's how's it going. and here's

01:10:57.200 --> 01:11:00.397
what I'm doing. People would say,
"You're a [__] idiot. Why are you

01:11:00.480 --> 01:11:04.077
doing it that way?" And and sometimes
you'd say, "You're wrong and I'm going

01:11:04.160 --> 01:11:07.917
to prove it." Other times you say, "He's
right. I I was doing it a stupid way."

01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:10.877
And you would adapt. And [snorts] so
it was just a totally different culture.

01:11:10.960 --> 01:11:13.757
And that was the approach that I when I
started working on VR, I'm like, "Well,

01:11:13.840 --> 01:11:18.077
that's that's what you do. That's you
you you share your work and people are

01:11:18.160 --> 01:11:22.797
impressed by it." Um, >> and so
how did Sony get on how did you

01:11:22.880 --> 01:11:24.877
get on Sony? what that that was that I I

01:11:24.960 --> 01:11:27.517
got really lucky in a series of chains.

01:11:27.600 --> 01:11:31.117
So I I I don't I don't want to say that it
was all luck because I think people

01:11:31.200 --> 01:11:33.037
make a lot of their own luck. Like you

01:11:33.120 --> 01:11:38.317
might not be able to make a a coin more
likely to land on heads or tails, but

01:11:38.400 --> 01:11:41.117
you could increase the number of coins
you get to flip in life, right? Like you

01:11:41.200 --> 01:11:43.997
could you could do things that increase
the number of interactions you're likely

01:11:44.080 --> 01:11:47.597
to have with people. I think publishing
in the open, for example, did that. It

01:11:47.680 --> 01:11:51.917
means that I didn't have to personally
meet every person who would be helpful

01:11:52.000 --> 01:11:55.357
to me. they could just see my work out
in the open and then come to me. And in

01:11:55.440 --> 01:11:59.197
this case, it was a guy named John
Carmarmac, um, who you should have on

01:11:59.280 --> 01:12:04.637
the show, honestly. Probably
the smartest engineer in the world that I

01:12:04.720 --> 01:12:06.397
know. >> Can you connect me with him?

01:12:06.480 --> 01:12:11.117
>> Absolutely. Um,
John is more or less the

01:12:11.200 --> 01:12:15.117
creator of first person shooters, the

01:12:15.200 --> 01:12:19.197
modern 3D game engine. Like if you've
played any if you've played Call of

01:12:19.280 --> 01:12:22.637
Duty, if you've played Battlefield, if
you've played anything, it all goes back

01:12:22.720 --> 01:12:26.157
to Doom. He was the original creator and

01:12:26.240 --> 01:12:29.357
lead programmer for Doom. And uh he

01:12:29.440 --> 01:12:32.717
>> Oh, dude, I love he he is a wizard.

01:12:32.800 --> 01:12:37.037
>> And he was so far ahead of his time.
I mean, not just building 3D games, but

01:12:37.120 --> 01:12:41.357
also one of the first people to conceive
of networking those games over the

01:12:41.440 --> 01:12:45.117
internet to allow people around
the world to be in a single virtual space

01:12:45.200 --> 01:12:48.157
and play games together. Like John was

01:12:48.240 --> 01:12:52.237
bringing that out like people had online
games but they typically were not real

01:12:52.320 --> 01:12:54.637
time you know they were
things like online chess.

01:12:54.720 --> 01:12:59.037
>> He figured out how to build net code
that would allow you to have people in a

01:12:59.120 --> 01:13:02.717
fast-paced action game where
milliseconds matter and allow that to

01:13:02.800 --> 01:13:06.877
function over the internet. I mean
like and so John was an extraordinarily

01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:10.717
brilliant guy. Everyone in the games
industry, the tech industry writ large

01:13:10.800 --> 01:13:16.077
knows who he is. And uh he would give
these he would he would give these uh

01:13:16.160 --> 01:13:19.757
actually he would also publish all his
personal notes and technical notes in in

01:13:19.840 --> 01:13:23.357
in a lot like he would literally publish
them online and just let anybody see

01:13:23.440 --> 01:13:28.237
them because he also believed in sharing
information. Everybody goes together and

01:13:28.320 --> 01:13:31.197
he wasn't worried about people running
faster than him cuz he was already

01:13:31.280 --> 01:13:36.077
running twice as fast as anybody in the
world could ever run. John Carmarmac had

01:13:36.160 --> 01:13:39.197
been looking at virtual reality for years,
but it had always concluded it

01:13:39.280 --> 01:13:42.637
was too expensive, too uh low field of

01:13:42.720 --> 01:13:44.397
view, too much latency, it made people

01:13:44.480 --> 01:13:48.157
sick. Uh and he had every few years he

01:13:48.240 --> 01:13:50.557
would do another new look at VR and see

01:13:50.640 --> 01:13:52.957
if where it was. And I got lucky where

01:13:53.040 --> 01:13:56.157
he came onto this internet forum and he

01:13:56.240 --> 01:14:00.557
was researching VR and he saw my project
threads and he contacted me and said,

01:14:00.640 --> 01:14:05.677
"Hey Palmer, um actually no, our first
interaction was he posted asking, "Hey,

01:14:05.760 --> 01:14:09.357
I want to modify this Sony headmounted
display that I have to be lower latency

01:14:09.440 --> 01:14:13.117
because you can't play games with it
or you'll throw up." Um does anyone have

01:14:13.200 --> 01:14:17.197
any tips on modifying this thing?
And I gave him a detailed response where I

01:14:17.280 --> 01:14:20.077
said, "John, I've already tried to do
exactly what you're talking about.

01:14:20.160 --> 01:14:23.597
Here's all the technical challenges.
The way Sony has imple implemented the

01:14:23.680 --> 01:14:26.477
display pipeline makes it impossible
to get rid of latency unless you drive the

01:14:26.560 --> 01:14:29.677
displays directly with your own brand
new controller. Here's why you're not

01:14:29.760 --> 01:14:33.677
going to be able to do that. And so I
laid all that out. He looked into all my

01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:37.837
other posts. He saw my Oculus Rift
worklogs and he contacted me and said,

01:14:37.920 --> 01:14:40.397
"Hey, you seem to really know your stuff.
I see you have this Oculus Rift

01:14:40.480 --> 01:14:43.917
prototype. Can I can I buy one from you?"
I said, "I'll do better than you

01:14:44.000 --> 01:14:47.597
better than that, John. I'm I'm I'm
a huge fan of yours. I'll just send you

01:14:47.680 --> 01:14:50.077
one for free." So, I sent him one of my

01:14:50.160 --> 01:14:55.277
Oculus Rift prototypes for free. He
adapted that into Doom 3 BFG Edition. He

01:14:55.360 --> 01:14:59.197
basically made his game run on my headset
and he showed that at E3, which

01:14:59.280 --> 01:15:02.957
is a major gaming trade show in Los
Angeles. It takes place every year. That

01:15:03.040 --> 01:15:07.757
was where Sony saw it. Sony saw
that prototype and there was so much

01:15:07.840 --> 01:15:10.397
attention being given to this at this
point because it was the best VR demo

01:15:10.480 --> 01:15:14.237
the world had ever seen. Like John even
explicitly said, "This is the best VR

01:15:14.320 --> 01:15:18.637
demo the world has that has ever been
created." Sony saw that and they said,

01:15:18.720 --> 01:15:22.077
"Oh my god, John, like who the hell
made this? What company did you buy this

01:15:22.160 --> 01:15:26.797
from?" He said, "I bought it from a
teenager on the internet who I've never

01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:31.037
met." And and he and he just gave it
to me for free. And so he put me in touch

01:15:31.120 --> 01:15:35.037
with Sony. I met with them, showed them
my technology, and they offered me a job

01:15:35.120 --> 01:15:37.037
running a VR research lab in their Santa

01:15:37.120 --> 01:15:40.957
Monica PlayStation studio. And uh

01:15:41.040 --> 01:15:45.357
I ended up turning them down to start
my own company. But uh but then what I

01:15:45.440 --> 01:15:49.677
didn't know at the time is that they
were already running a VR project and

01:15:49.760 --> 01:15:53.677
what I didn't know is that I was already
in a race against the clock. I didn't

01:15:53.760 --> 01:15:58.397
even when I turned them down I didn't
understand that like I thought turning

01:15:58.480 --> 01:16:02.317
them down it's like oh I need to do this
on my own before Sony you know gets into

01:16:02.400 --> 01:16:05.917
VR. I didn't know that they were
literally already in a race with me. It

01:16:06.000 --> 01:16:07.357
was a it was a really wild time.

01:16:07.440 --> 01:16:09.437
>> When did you find out? you know, I I

01:16:09.520 --> 01:16:12.317
kind of knew that there were pe So, all

01:16:12.400 --> 01:16:17.517
the VR work back then was being done
by a group called Sony Liverpool. Uh, so

01:16:17.600 --> 01:16:21.517
over in the UK, they had an office that
was doing most of their 3D work. Like,

01:16:21.600 --> 01:16:25.437
they were doing all their 3D ports
of various PlayStation games. Those were

01:16:25.520 --> 01:16:26.877
kind of the guys leading the charge on

01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:30.077
VR as well. And I found out that they

01:16:30.160 --> 01:16:33.597
were working on VR right before

01:16:33.680 --> 01:16:36.797
right after I turned them down. But then

01:16:36.880 --> 01:16:41.757
Sony Liverpool was shut down just a few
months later. And so all of a sudden the

01:16:41.840 --> 01:16:44.957
people who had been working on it
weren't working on it anymore. But what

01:16:45.040 --> 01:16:48.317
I didn't know is like and so I I I
basically found out they were working on

01:16:48.400 --> 01:16:50.317
VR then thought they weren't working on

01:16:50.400 --> 01:16:53.277
VR. Then I found out maybe a year later

01:16:53.360 --> 01:16:55.677
that there was an entirely separate VR

01:16:55.760 --> 01:16:58.077
project going on inside of Sony out of

01:16:58.160 --> 01:17:02.957
Japan. And I found out about a year later.
And then you won't believe this.

01:17:03.040 --> 01:17:06.637
The day that we announced
the acquisition by Facebook of Oculus,

01:17:06.720 --> 01:17:09.517
literally the same day was the day that

01:17:09.600 --> 01:17:12.557
Sony announced their PlayStation VR VR

01:17:12.640 --> 01:17:15.037
console. Literally the same day.

01:17:15.120 --> 01:17:19.197
>> Wow. Yep. >> It's really
like which gets back to like

01:17:19.280 --> 01:17:24.317
it was clearly an idea whose time had
come, right? Like I was very lucky that

01:17:24.400 --> 01:17:28.077
I had the insight that I did as just
a random guy in his garage. Like, how wild

01:17:28.160 --> 01:17:30.557
is it that there's like me, a

01:17:30.640 --> 01:17:32.797
15-year-old sitting in his garage, has

01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:35.677
more or less the exact same insights on

01:17:35.760 --> 01:17:38.557
this dead technology that a huge team of

01:17:38.640 --> 01:17:43.037
advanced display researchers in Tokyo
have at exactly the same time? Like,

01:17:43.120 --> 01:17:45.837
man, that's how you know that it's
the right time to do something.

01:17:45.920 --> 01:17:50.237
>> That is crazy. And who's who was
your friend that you and by the way John

01:17:50.320 --> 01:17:53.917
Carmarmac just to tell you a little more
more about him he also at the same time

01:17:54.000 --> 01:17:58.717
he did in software ran a rocket company
that competed in the X-P prize and they

01:17:58.800 --> 01:18:02.557
built the one of the first vertical
takeoff and landing rockets way years

01:18:02.640 --> 01:18:06.397
before SpaceX did. They were more
or less the inventors of modern control

01:18:06.480 --> 01:18:09.837
theory around doing vertical takeoff
and landing rockets. So he did that as his

01:18:09.920 --> 01:18:12.877
hobby. He also built like twin turboed

01:18:12.960 --> 01:18:15.917
Ferraris as his hobby. And then I hired

01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:18.557
him as the CTO of Oculus. So I convinced

01:18:18.640 --> 01:18:21.517
him to leave his own game studio to come

01:18:21.600 --> 01:18:23.997
and be the CTO of Oculus. And then

01:18:24.080 --> 01:18:26.957
eventually after I was fired, he left

01:18:27.040 --> 01:18:31.117
and now he's working on trying to build
super intelligent general artificial

01:18:31.200 --> 01:18:35.037
intelligence. And he did this before the
AI boom. So like I know that seems like,

01:18:35.120 --> 01:18:38.397
oh well, of course he's doing AI like
all these other, you know, hot people

01:18:38.480 --> 01:18:41.117
just following the trends. John
was doing it when everyone thought he was

01:18:41.200 --> 01:18:44.877
crazy. So, I mean, he's he's
he's way ahead of the curve.

01:18:44.960 --> 01:18:46.237
>> Damn. I would love to talk to him.

01:18:46.320 --> 01:18:50.157
>> I I'll connect to you guys.
I John John is John is John is brilliant.

01:18:50.240 --> 01:18:54.237
>> Thank you. Thank you. So, who was
your who's your friend that you had coaxed

01:18:54.320 --> 01:18:57.277
out of going to school? >> So,
that's my friend Christopher Dykus,

01:18:57.360 --> 01:19:00.637
who was uh I said earlier that I had
never met him in person. That's actually

01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:04.397
not true. I just remembered I had met
him one time in person at San Diego

01:19:04.480 --> 01:19:07.117
Comic-Con. Um we were we we we we both

01:19:07.200 --> 01:19:08.957
met up while we were at Comic-Con.

01:19:09.040 --> 01:19:12.077
>> Nice. Nice. So, was he a co-founder?

01:19:12.160 --> 01:19:15.277
>> Yeah. So, he was he was I mean he was

01:19:15.360 --> 01:19:19.597
the literally the first person that I
called before I called anybody else. And

01:19:19.680 --> 01:19:22.157
he was, you know, got guy a lot of the

01:19:22.240 --> 01:19:24.797
like same hobbies as me, same uh same

01:19:24.880 --> 01:19:27.757
same interests as me. And I mean, he's

01:19:27.840 --> 01:19:30.317
he was employee number one at Oculus.

01:19:30.400 --> 01:19:33.677
Literally employee number one. I don't
count myself as employee number one cuz

01:19:33.760 --> 01:19:38.157
you can't employ yourself. Um or maybe
you can. Anyway, we've always said that

01:19:38.240 --> 01:19:39.597
he's employ We've always said that he's

01:19:39.680 --> 01:19:41.997
employ he's employee number one. Uh cuz

01:19:42.080 --> 01:19:46.957
he was. And the crazy thing is Chris was

01:19:47.040 --> 01:19:50.397
also employee number one at Andreal,
my new weapons company.

01:19:50.480 --> 01:19:53.997
>> Oh [__] >> So when
this is a whole long story all

01:19:54.080 --> 01:19:55.677
on its own, but when I was fired by

01:19:55.760 --> 01:20:00.237
Facebook, Chris was the guy who took a

01:20:00.320 --> 01:20:03.597
stand and said publicly, "Hey, you

01:20:03.680 --> 01:20:06.557
firing Palmer is totally wrong. It is it

01:20:06.640 --> 01:20:11.037
is absolutely insane. He has done
nothing wrong and I can't be at a

01:20:11.120 --> 01:20:12.957
company that is like this. And so he

01:20:13.040 --> 01:20:16.157
quit his extremely highly paid job at

01:20:16.240 --> 01:20:19.197
Facebook to come and join my next

01:20:19.280 --> 01:20:23.917
company even though that company didn't
exist yet. Had nothing to its name. And

01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:26.717
uh you know he's he he's he's one
of those he's one of those one of those

01:20:26.800 --> 01:20:29.437
friends who is probably more loyal than

01:20:29.520 --> 01:20:31.277
he should be which is what people should

01:20:31.360 --> 01:20:35.517
do. Wow. So you developed Oculus. How

01:20:35.600 --> 01:20:37.277
many people are on the team?

01:20:37.360 --> 01:20:40.157
>> Well, started with
just me in my garage.

01:20:40.240 --> 01:20:42.877
When we were shipping our first product,

01:20:42.960 --> 01:20:45.917
the Oculus Rift DK1, we were up to about

01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:48.557
25 people. When we shipped our second

01:20:48.640 --> 01:20:51.597
product, the DK Oculus Rift DK2, we were

01:20:51.680 --> 01:20:54.477
up to about 75 people. And that was when

01:20:54.560 --> 01:20:59.037
we were acquired by Facebook.
And then during my years in Silicon Valley

01:20:59.120 --> 01:21:02.157
working on VR at Facebook, you know,
they basically we were run as a kind of

01:21:02.240 --> 01:21:07.197
an independent operation owned
by Facebook, um, we grew it to a couple

01:21:07.280 --> 01:21:09.757
thousand people. >> Holy [__] >> Yep.

01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:11.357
>> And so how did it how did it pop up?

01:21:11.440 --> 01:21:13.517
Were you trying to sell the company? How

01:21:13.600 --> 01:21:15.357
did it pop up on Facebook's radar?

01:21:15.440 --> 01:21:20.237
>> So there were a few things. Um, we were
not trying to sell the company. We were

01:21:20.320 --> 01:21:24.957
planning on staying independent,
but then a few things happened. First, it

01:21:25.040 --> 01:21:28.717
became apparent to us that we weren't
running a race on our own. We started to

01:21:28.800 --> 01:21:31.037
hear what was going on at Sony. Like,

01:21:31.120 --> 01:21:35.837
when Sony announced PlayStation VR,
we knew it was coming.

01:21:35.920 --> 01:21:39.837
We knew there were other companies that
were that were going to be entering the

01:21:39.920 --> 01:21:43.037
space with way more resources than we
had as a startup. I look, we're we're a

01:21:43.120 --> 01:21:46.797
group of like 75 guys who managed
to raise a little bit of venture capital.

01:21:46.880 --> 01:21:48.157
How do you compete with multi-billion

01:21:48.240 --> 01:21:51.037
dollar companies like Sony or Microsoft

01:21:51.120 --> 01:21:56.557
or Google or Apple? It's really really
hard. And uh that was so that was one

01:21:56.640 --> 01:21:59.197
thing we were just really concerned
about and having a lot of discussions

01:21:59.280 --> 01:22:02.237
internally. How do we survive in the
long run? We we we have the jump on

01:22:02.320 --> 01:22:06.477
these guys, but how do we turn that lead
into something that persists rather than

01:22:06.560 --> 01:22:10.797
just being the people who are first
and blazing a trail for everyone who then

01:22:10.880 --> 01:22:13.997
comes in and outspends us. And it's
pretty easy to outspend people in the

01:22:14.080 --> 01:22:18.157
games industry. Like here's a very real
concern. What if they came in and all

01:22:18.240 --> 01:22:21.757
the video game developers who are making
games for our platform, what if they

01:22:21.840 --> 01:22:25.357
just came in and gave them piles
of money to not support our headset and be

01:22:25.440 --> 01:22:28.397
exclusive to their headset? Sony did
just that. And I have, by the way, I

01:22:28.480 --> 01:22:31.437
have no ill will towards them. It's
it's all business, right? It's strictly

01:22:31.520 --> 01:22:34.317
business. They were trying to compete
with us. There were titles that had

01:22:34.400 --> 01:22:38.797
announced for the Oculus Rift as our
launch titles. Sony came in, gave them

01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:41.917
money, and they said, "We're not going
to be on your platform. We're going to

01:22:42.000 --> 01:22:45.757
be on Sony's now." So we we we were very
very vulnerable because nobody wants to

01:22:45.840 --> 01:22:51.037
buy a game console that has no games,
right? You you you really need to you

01:22:51.120 --> 01:22:54.077
need to be able to make
sure the developers

01:22:54.160 --> 01:22:58.317
can justify financially
being on your platform.

01:22:58.400 --> 01:23:01.837
So that was all going on and then in comes
you know like I say there was lots

01:23:01.920 --> 01:23:04.957
of interest from obvious people like
Microsoft coming in and Google coming

01:23:05.040 --> 01:23:07.437
in. The interesting thing was when

01:23:07.520 --> 01:23:12.317
Facebook came in and a few things
happened. First, I think Mark was truly

01:23:12.400 --> 01:23:15.917
convinced that VR was the future. He saw
what we were doing and he said, "Oh my

01:23:16.000 --> 01:23:17.997
god, this is the future of computing.

01:23:18.080 --> 01:23:22.317
This is the future of gaming. I truly
believe in your vision. I want you to be

01:23:22.400 --> 01:23:25.357
a part of Facebook." So, well, you know,
we're not not really that interested at

01:23:25.440 --> 01:23:26.637
this point, but like maybe we could team

01:23:26.720 --> 01:23:30.557
up in some way. Um, and the thing that

01:23:30.640 --> 01:23:32.557
really convinced us in the end was two

01:23:32.640 --> 01:23:35.677
things. one, Mark promised not just to

01:23:35.760 --> 01:23:40.637
buy our company, but to invest a minimum
of a billion dollars a year into

01:23:40.720 --> 01:23:44.397
research and development for the next
decade. That was really the thing. Like

01:23:44.480 --> 01:23:47.677
when you're someone like me who's
used to working with garage budgets and

01:23:47.760 --> 01:23:51.037
scraping money here and there and trying
to keep your thing going, imagine what

01:23:51.120 --> 01:23:53.277
that sounds like. Someone comes to you
and says, "I'm going to give you a

01:23:53.360 --> 01:23:56.557
billion dollars a year
for the next 10 years of your life

01:23:56.640 --> 01:23:59.437
>> to try and push
virtual reality forward."

01:23:59.520 --> 01:24:01.917
>> It's a really
compelling pitch. In fact,

01:24:02.000 --> 01:24:03.837
I remember exactly what I wrote in the

01:24:03.920 --> 01:24:06.477
email to the team after we met with

01:24:06.560 --> 01:24:10.077
Mark. I said,

01:24:10.160 --> 01:24:12.957
"We we might be getting played, but if

01:24:13.040 --> 01:24:16.717
so, Zuck is Van Halen." Like, like he

01:24:16.800 --> 01:24:21.197
he's saying he's hitting all the right
notes. He's saying exactly what you want

01:24:21.280 --> 01:24:24.957
to hear, and he's doing it
in a way that really makes sense.

01:24:25.040 --> 01:24:27.677
Uh, the second reason that we were

01:24:27.760 --> 01:24:32.317
persuaded is because they made a pitch
to us and said, "Look, Microsoft, if

01:24:32.400 --> 01:24:34.237
they buy you, is just going to cut you

01:24:34.320 --> 01:24:35.997
up into pieces and use you to sell more

01:24:36.080 --> 01:24:39.357
Xboxes. They don't actually want VR or

01:24:39.440 --> 01:24:43.357
AR to be the next major computing
platform." Like, Microsoft's pretty

01:24:43.440 --> 01:24:47.437
happy with how things are. Same thing
with Google. Same thing with Apple.

01:24:47.520 --> 01:24:50.557
They're already at the top of the food
chain, right? They're making iOS,

01:24:50.640 --> 01:24:53.837
they're making Android, they're selling
phones, or they're selling, you know,

01:24:53.920 --> 01:24:57.437
Microsoft Office, they're selling
computer operating system licenses. The

01:24:57.520 --> 01:25:00.637
people at the top don't want to shake
everything up. They don't want to shake

01:25:00.720 --> 01:25:04.557
the snow globe and see who comes out
on top. They kind of want to maintain

01:25:04.640 --> 01:25:07.917
things the way they are. So, his point
was, if you get bought by Google or

01:25:08.000 --> 01:25:12.797
Microsoft or Apple, they are not going
to try and shake up the whole world and

01:25:12.880 --> 01:25:16.397
make VR a thing as fast as they can,
you're going to be a tiny part of their

01:25:16.480 --> 01:25:18.877
10-year plan. But Facebook on the other

01:25:18.960 --> 01:25:20.957
hand, we don't have an operating system.

01:25:21.040 --> 01:25:24.637
We don't have a hardware platform. We

01:25:24.720 --> 01:25:28.557
don't control these gigantic, you know,
store. Like we don't control the iOS

01:25:28.640 --> 01:25:32.797
store. We don't control the Google Play
Store. But they want to have a platform.

01:25:32.880 --> 01:25:36.717
And so Mark's point pitched to us
was look, you go to those other guys,

01:25:36.800 --> 01:25:39.997
they're not going to be motivated
to make your thing change the world. You

01:25:40.080 --> 01:25:43.357
come to Facebook, we are deeply
motivated because we want to shake the

01:25:43.440 --> 01:25:46.237
snow globe. We want to make the whole

01:25:46.320 --> 01:25:50.957
universe move to VR and AR. And even if
we don't end up on top, we'll probably

01:25:51.040 --> 01:25:53.837
at least be in second or third place,
which is a heck of a lot better than

01:25:53.920 --> 01:25:58.397
today where we're way down here. And I
think that it was it was he was it was

01:25:58.480 --> 01:26:01.277
just obviously true, right? Like you
could look at it logically and say,

01:26:01.360 --> 01:26:04.557
"Yeah, that that's actually right.
They they do need to figure out a way to

01:26:04.640 --> 01:26:09.277
shake things up. This clearly is that way,
and they're committing to spending

01:26:09.360 --> 01:26:13.757
a billion dollars a year on the thing
that I am passionate about." So, uh,

01:26:13.840 --> 01:26:17.917
you'll notice that not nowhere in there
is, uh, I did it to get rich. Uh, I I I

01:26:18.000 --> 01:26:20.477
will address that really fast cuz I know
what people are thinking. I know they're

01:26:20.560 --> 01:26:23.677
thinking, "Well, well, Palmer, what
about the $2.3 billion that Martin gave

01:26:23.760 --> 01:26:26.637
you for the company?" On the one hand,

01:26:26.720 --> 01:26:30.957
uh, like that was some tiny factor, but

01:26:31.040 --> 01:26:35.277
remember that I had other companies
that were making offers too. My investors

01:26:35.360 --> 01:26:38.477
were telling me not to sell. They were
saying, "Palmer, no. We'll we'll fund

01:26:38.560 --> 01:26:41.277
you. We'll give you as much money
as you want." like I could have done that

01:26:41.360 --> 01:26:44.717
instead. And also I believed that Oculus

01:26:44.800 --> 01:26:48.557
was going to make tons of money all
on its own, right? Like we we were the

01:26:48.640 --> 01:26:51.837
hottest things in the games industry.
So in my mind, I was already going to make

01:26:51.920 --> 01:26:55.277
as much money as I would ever need. Like
like like so people they often say, "But

01:26:55.360 --> 01:26:59.357
Palmer, you really just did it for the
$2.3 billion." I say, "No, like if if

01:26:59.440 --> 01:27:03.677
this is about $2 billion, I could have
just made that myself." Uh but Mark was

01:27:03.760 --> 01:27:08.477
offering $10 billion in research
and development and me getting $2 billion

01:27:08.560 --> 01:27:10.077
from somebody doesn't do that.

01:27:10.160 --> 01:27:13.917
>> Yeah. >> Doesn't do that. >> Wow.
Interesting. Interesting. So what was like

01:27:14.000 --> 01:27:17.277
>> if I if I could flip it on you like not
not to play the interview but like what

01:27:17.360 --> 01:27:18.717
are you most passionate about in life?

01:27:18.800 --> 01:27:20.317
Cuz for me it was VR at that point.

01:27:20.400 --> 01:27:21.917
>> This this >> this right here.

01:27:22.000 --> 01:27:25.997
>> What if someone told you that they were
going to give you $10 billion to do this

01:27:26.080 --> 01:27:29.597
for 10 years? >> Yeah.
Like wouldn't you just think, oh

01:27:29.680 --> 01:27:33.597
my god, like this is the opportunity of
a lifetime. And I know like you probably

01:27:33.680 --> 01:27:36.077
want to remain independent. But if
someone told you, I'm going to let you

01:27:36.160 --> 01:27:38.477
remain independent. You're going to make
all the shots and I'm going to give you

01:27:38.560 --> 01:27:41.837
$10 billion over the next 10 years.

01:27:41.920 --> 01:27:45.037
>> You'd say yes to that.
>> Absolutely. I would. In fact, that's a

01:27:45.120 --> 01:27:49.757
that's a discussion we're having right
now. So f I'm so stoked to hear that.

01:27:49.840 --> 01:27:54.077
And I I'd say to anyone listening,
>> it's not $10 billion.

01:27:54.160 --> 01:27:58.877
Well, I'll tell you if if you can find
somebody who will give you $10 billion

01:27:58.960 --> 01:28:04.077
to do what you're passionate about, take
the deal. It is it is like that it is it

01:28:04.160 --> 01:28:07.917
is. >> And like did it turn out well for
me? I mean, in the end, I ended up getting

01:28:08.000 --> 01:28:11.197
fired for absolutely
[__] political reasons.

01:28:11.280 --> 01:28:14.157
>> Yeah. I wanted to ask you,
>> but guess what? VR is a multi-billion

01:28:14.240 --> 01:28:18.317
dollar industry. I'm having the last
laugh. I I I wanted Mark changed the

01:28:18.400 --> 01:28:22.077
name of the company to Meta and literally
made AR and VR the core of the

01:28:22.160 --> 01:28:23.677
company. Like in the end, Mark didn't

01:28:23.760 --> 01:28:29.277
acquire me, I acquired them.
>> It's a damn good point. So how long So

01:28:29.360 --> 01:28:32.637
Facebook bought it?
>> Yep. >> You moved over.

01:28:32.720 --> 01:28:34.077
>> How was it working at Facebook?

01:28:34.160 --> 01:28:37.677
>> Things were going great. I mean,
we So we we had a bunch of metrics that we

01:28:37.760 --> 01:28:41.517
needed to hit in terms of sales,
user retention. Like we needed to get 10

01:28:41.600 --> 01:28:45.757
million users on the Oculus platform.
We needed to hit I forget it was some

01:28:45.840 --> 01:28:50.157
number of millions of hours of monthly
users. And we had these different levels

01:28:50.240 --> 01:28:54.557
where we basically got bonuses paid out
on the basis of our performance tied to

01:28:54.640 --> 01:28:58.397
those metrics. >> We had
something like 5 years to hit the

01:28:58.480 --> 01:29:00.797
top benchmark of 10 million users. We

01:29:00.880 --> 01:29:05.517
did it in less than two years.
Like we were we were kicking ass.

01:29:05.600 --> 01:29:08.957
>> Wow. >> And so
everything was going great. I

01:29:09.040 --> 01:29:11.597
earned all my bonuses. I got great

01:29:11.680 --> 01:29:15.597
performance reviews. Everyone loved me.

01:29:15.680 --> 01:29:19.597
And I I got along pretty well with
everybody despite moving to the Bay

01:29:19.680 --> 01:29:22.077
Area, which was a very very politically

01:29:22.160 --> 01:29:25.117
left place at the time. I'll say like I

01:29:25.200 --> 01:29:27.437
I've long been a libertarian

01:29:27.520 --> 01:29:32.397
minded person. Politics were always
something I had thought about but really

01:29:32.480 --> 01:29:37.517
didn't do anything about. Like I had
given $40 to Gary Johnson, right? Like

01:29:37.600 --> 01:29:41.517
it just it I I don't want to say
politics weren't important to me, but

01:29:41.600 --> 01:29:43.037
they just weren't that important to me.

01:29:43.120 --> 01:29:45.117
I cared about VR. I was the VR guy,

01:29:45.200 --> 01:29:48.397
right? And so here I am. I've sold my

01:29:48.480 --> 01:29:50.637
company for billions of dollars. Few

01:29:50.720 --> 01:29:54.237
years pass and all of a sudden Donald

01:29:54.320 --> 01:29:57.917
Trump's running for president. Now
Donald Trump is somebody who I had long

01:29:58.000 --> 01:30:02.717
had respect for. I actually wrote
a letter to him when I was in college and

01:30:02.800 --> 01:30:05.917
15 years old telling him that he
should run for president. You might not

01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:07.597
remember this, but he had been on TV and

01:30:07.680 --> 01:30:08.957
they were asking if he was going to run

01:30:09.040 --> 01:30:13.277
against Barack Obama. Um and he said he

01:30:13.360 --> 01:30:15.677
said well I might have no choice. I

01:30:15.760 --> 01:30:18.317
might have to run. I don't want to run.

01:30:18.400 --> 01:30:20.797
No, nobody wants me to run. It feels

01:30:20.880 --> 01:30:23.037
like but if I have to do it then I have

01:30:23.120 --> 01:30:27.997
to do it. You know if people tell me
that I have to run then maybe I have to

01:30:28.080 --> 01:30:29.917
do it. And so I wrote him a letter. I

01:30:30.000 --> 01:30:33.517
said you have to run. We need someone

01:30:33.600 --> 01:30:36.477
who's signed both sides of a check. We

01:30:36.560 --> 01:30:41.197
need someone who is not a part of this
giant government bureaucracy. We need

01:30:41.280 --> 01:30:44.477
someone who understands what it's
like to build a business, not to be a

01:30:44.560 --> 01:30:49.597
community organizer. And uh I wrote that
letter. I I don't even want to say like

01:30:49.680 --> 01:30:52.877
I thought too much of it, right?
Like I I you know, like I I did it on an

01:30:52.960 --> 01:30:55.037
impulse cuz I saw him say, "If if enough

01:30:55.120 --> 01:30:59.917
people tell me I have to run, then maybe
I'll do it." Years pass, Trump's running

01:31:00.000 --> 01:31:04.397
for president, and I said, "This is
this is fantastic. I'm I'm so stoked that

01:31:04.480 --> 01:31:05.997
Donald Trump is finally
running for president.

01:31:06.080 --> 01:31:08.877
>> Was there Hold on.
Was there any Did you get a response?

01:31:08.960 --> 01:31:10.717
>> No. And I I never got a response. Okay.

01:31:10.800 --> 01:31:13.837
Which is which is which is fine. Like I
I don't want to act like I was like put

01:31:13.920 --> 01:31:17.677
off by it. I also I'm so glad I did this.
I posted on Facebook about it too

01:31:17.760 --> 01:31:21.437
and I said I'm I said I said it
looks like Donald Trump might run for

01:31:21.520 --> 01:31:24.717
president. We convince him. This would
be awesome. I'm so glad I did that cuz

01:31:24.800 --> 01:31:28.717
now I have proof that I supported him
when I was 15 years old all those years

01:31:28.800 --> 01:31:32.157
ago. Uh because otherwise this just this
would just be like a ridiculous story.

01:31:32.240 --> 01:31:35.677
you'd never be able to prove it. Um,
when I had Trump at my house years later

01:31:35.760 --> 01:31:39.357
for a fundraiser, which by the way was
the biggest presidential fundraiser for

01:31:39.440 --> 01:31:43.757
a Republican that had ever been held,
um, I I put that I put that little

01:31:43.840 --> 01:31:48.477
Facebook post up on the screen
[laughter] uh before he came up. Um,

01:31:48.560 --> 01:31:51.597
anyway, so look,
Trump's running for president.

01:31:51.680 --> 01:31:55.757
Everyone in Silicon Valley was losing
their mind, right? I mean, it's it like

01:31:55.840 --> 01:31:59.117
I know you probably remember,
but there's probably people listening who

01:31:59.200 --> 01:32:00.557
don't remember or they're too young to

01:32:00.640 --> 01:32:04.477
remember. 2015 and 2016 was insane. The

01:32:04.560 --> 01:32:09.597
media hated Trump. Everything was being
twisted in these absurd ways. You

01:32:09.680 --> 01:32:13.277
remember when he said, "They're sending
us their drugs, their criminals, their

01:32:13.360 --> 01:32:15.437
rapists." And they said, "Trump says

01:32:15.520 --> 01:32:17.917
that Mexicans are rapists." And their

01:32:18.000 --> 01:32:22.077
quote is, "They are rapists." Like, you

01:32:22.160 --> 01:32:23.917
can literally just watch what he says.

01:32:24.000 --> 01:32:27.437
And like it it doesn't even make
grammatical sense for that construct.

01:32:27.520 --> 01:32:29.677
Also, he's literally talking about the

01:32:29.760 --> 01:32:32.077
criminals and the drugs and the

01:32:32.160 --> 01:32:34.797
murderers and the rapists. And I mean,

01:32:34.880 --> 01:32:38.157
it was like it was insane. There was no

01:32:38.240 --> 01:32:40.477
ethics being used. It was it was it was

01:32:40.560 --> 01:32:43.597
it was a pure attack blitzkrieg by the

01:32:43.680 --> 01:32:45.197
media against Trump. And a lot of people

01:32:45.280 --> 01:32:48.317
fell for it. And so, uh, I ended up

01:32:48.400 --> 01:32:52.877
giving $9,000 to a proTrump anti-Clinton

01:32:52.960 --> 01:32:56.957
group. And it's so funny because this
started a media [__] storm that I'll get

01:32:57.040 --> 01:33:00.637
into in a moment. But I have to tell
you what they actually did. I gave them

01:33:00.720 --> 01:33:02.477
$9,000.

01:33:02.560 --> 01:33:06.557
They ran one single billboard in Ohio, I

01:33:06.640 --> 01:33:09.597
think Columbus, Ohio, that was a picture

01:33:09.680 --> 01:33:11.997
of Hillary Clinton, and it said, "Too

01:33:12.080 --> 01:33:16.877
big to jail." And this was after she
got away with mishandling classified

01:33:16.960 --> 01:33:20.637
information. You might remember
at exactly the same time you had US

01:33:20.720 --> 01:33:22.877
submariners being put in prison for

01:33:22.960 --> 01:33:26.717
decades for much less

01:33:26.800 --> 01:33:29.997
expansive mishandling of classified
information. You know, it was it was an

01:33:30.080 --> 01:33:34.957
obvious double standard. You have
the deep state state department apparatus

01:33:35.040 --> 01:33:39.037
protecting Hillary and on the other side
you have a serviceman going to prison

01:33:39.120 --> 01:33:43.677
for something that was not nearly as bad
as anything she was too big to jail. So

01:33:43.760 --> 01:33:46.477
but would you agree like that's pretty
reasonable political discourse right

01:33:46.560 --> 01:33:48.557
that's not that's not crazy. I'm not I'm

01:33:48.640 --> 01:33:50.637
not saying Hillary's a [__] like you

01:33:50.720 --> 01:33:54.797
know it's it it it's very reasonable.

01:33:54.880 --> 01:33:57.597
So two things happened. First, the media

01:33:57.680 --> 01:34:01.117
found out about my contribution and a

01:34:01.200 --> 01:34:05.117
few media outlets reported on it
somewhat accurately. Like Palmer Lucky,

01:34:05.200 --> 01:34:09.757
the guy who started Oculus, this Facebook
executive, has given $9,000 to

01:34:09.840 --> 01:34:12.077
this proTrump anti-Clinton group that's

01:34:12.160 --> 01:34:15.437
running a billboard. Then a handful of

01:34:15.520 --> 01:34:17.677
people on Twitter, literally, it was a

01:34:17.760 --> 01:34:21.197
completely madeup story, said Palmer is

01:34:21.280 --> 01:34:23.437
funding white supremacist internet

01:34:23.520 --> 01:34:25.677
trolls to attack Clinton supporters on

01:34:25.760 --> 01:34:28.317
the internet. It expanded from there.

01:34:28.400 --> 01:34:32.557
Palmer is funding anti- uh anti-semitic

01:34:32.640 --> 01:34:35.597
memes. Palmer is funding misogynist

01:34:35.680 --> 01:34:38.877
troll squads. Palmer is funding a a I

01:34:38.960 --> 01:34:41.357
believe RS Technica called it a title

01:34:41.440 --> 01:34:45.277
wave of racist memes on Reddit, Facebook

01:34:45.360 --> 01:34:48.397
and beyond. It was literally fabricated.

01:34:48.480 --> 01:34:50.237
None of it ever happened. It was a

01:34:50.320 --> 01:34:52.797
completely false story and it was

01:34:52.880 --> 01:34:55.597
reported by dozens of outlets. CNN,

01:34:55.680 --> 01:34:58.957
Bloomberg, CNBC,

01:34:59.040 --> 01:35:02.477
RS Technica, Wired magazine, Gizmodo,

01:35:02.560 --> 01:35:06.477
Boing, Boing, [clears
throat] The Washington Post,

01:35:06.560 --> 01:35:08.477
Taylor Loren's reported on it. I mean,

01:35:08.560 --> 01:35:11.997
it was everywhere. And they all they all

01:35:12.080 --> 01:35:14.237
just had this this lockstep narrative.

01:35:14.320 --> 01:35:16.957
Palmer Lucky is a racist, misogynist,

01:35:17.040 --> 01:35:21.277
anti- which is so funny. I'm actually
a radical Zionist. I'm like, it it was it

01:35:21.360 --> 01:35:22.637
was even in the moment it was

01:35:22.720 --> 01:35:25.357
>> a radical Zionist. strongly believe in

01:35:25.440 --> 01:35:28.317
the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish

01:35:28.400 --> 01:35:32.637
state. Like I I I people are like that's
so problematic though. It's so it's so

01:35:32.720 --> 01:35:35.037
ethnostate adjacent. I say I don't care.

01:35:35.120 --> 01:35:38.797
After what happened to them in World War
II, they deserve a place where they can

01:35:38.880 --> 01:35:42.477
do their own thing and protect their
own people without getting wrecked by

01:35:42.560 --> 01:35:45.277
everybody else who hates them. And you
know what? Maybe someday everyone who

01:35:45.360 --> 01:35:48.637
hates Jews are going to be gone. We are
not living in that world today. And I

01:35:48.720 --> 01:35:51.917
and people they they think it's
a slippery slope though. if they can have

01:35:52.000 --> 01:35:55.757
it, why can't the KKK have their own
state? I say that's not going to happen.

01:35:55.840 --> 01:36:00.077
Like like it's it's absurd for us
to even have a discussion. It is very

01:36:00.160 --> 01:36:04.477
reasonable for the Jews to have a place
that is theirs. And they say, "Oh, but

01:36:04.560 --> 01:36:07.597
what about the Palestinians?" You know
what? That's a separate political issue.

01:36:07.680 --> 01:36:11.197
like the existence of a Jewish state,

01:36:11.280 --> 01:36:15.997
which is what Zionism is, like the the
belief that they have the right to a

01:36:16.080 --> 01:36:19.837
Jewish state, the existence of a Jewish
state, is separate from the issue of

01:36:19.920 --> 01:36:23.757
what do you do with refugees from some
political, you know, from for some from

01:36:23.840 --> 01:36:26.797
some physical area. So, it was so
funny to me where like Palmer's this

01:36:26.880 --> 01:36:30.077
anti-Semitic guy because it
was literally made up. Like, it's not even

01:36:30.160 --> 01:36:34.397
like there was like screenshots
or madeup screenshots. journalists just

01:36:34.480 --> 01:36:38.237
said it was true with zero evidence and
they just repeated what each other said.

01:36:38.320 --> 01:36:41.517
And I know people are going to hear
this and say this I must be miss Palmer's

01:36:41.600 --> 01:36:44.237
ignor like he's he's glossing over
something. He must he must have like

01:36:44.320 --> 01:36:47.517
said something about Jews on Twitter
and they were like are you Jewish? No, I'm

01:36:47.600 --> 01:36:51.437
not Jewish. I just believe in the
existence of a Jewish state. Um and I

01:36:51.520 --> 01:36:53.837
bet even some of your listeners probably
won't agree with me on that. And that's

01:36:53.920 --> 01:36:56.637
fine. We don't have to all agree on
everything. But I will say it was pretty

01:36:56.720 --> 01:37:00.237
ridiculous in the moment where like
Palmer is an anti-semite. I'm like no I

01:37:00.320 --> 01:37:02.077
love the Jews more than like anybody.

01:37:02.160 --> 01:37:05.437
like you Democrats would probably hate
me for how much I like the Jews, you

01:37:05.520 --> 01:37:06.957
know, like that you [clears throat]

01:37:07.040 --> 01:37:10.797
Anyway, it was but what happened was as

01:37:10.880 --> 01:37:13.757
a result of this reporting like looking

01:37:13.840 --> 01:37:15.917
back I should have pushed back. What

01:37:16.000 --> 01:37:18.957
happened is I wrote a statement saying,

01:37:19.040 --> 01:37:23.357
"Hey, this is all false. None of this
is true. Here's what actually happened. I

01:37:23.440 --> 01:37:27.597
gave $9,000 to this proTrump group.
They ran a single billboard. Everyone is

01:37:27.680 --> 01:37:32.317
lying. This is literally fake news." And
that was when fake news was like a new a

01:37:32.400 --> 01:37:35.677
new a new phrase. >> Facebook
told me I couldn't publish it.

01:37:35.760 --> 01:37:38.237
They said, "We won't let you make
this statement. You cannot make this

01:37:38.320 --> 01:37:41.437
statement because it frames the media as

01:37:41.520 --> 01:37:46.477
the bad guy and in a world where Donald
Trump is attacking the fourth estate, we

01:37:46.560 --> 01:37:49.197
can't appear to be aligned with him."
I said, "Well, you guys don't have to

01:37:49.280 --> 01:37:53.917
appear to be aligned, but I will be
like, I I'm I'm fine if people think

01:37:54.000 --> 01:37:58.957
that I'm being unfair because this is
literally character assassination." Like

01:37:59.040 --> 01:38:03.437
they they are they are they are trying
to destroy and they kept reporting as of

01:38:03.520 --> 01:38:07.357
Thursday at 3:58 p.m. when read
for comment Palmer Lucky is still employed

01:38:07.440 --> 01:38:09.677
by Facebook. Like that's how they ended

01:38:09.760 --> 01:38:14.397
the articles. It was it was explicitly
a scalp taking operation from the very

01:38:14.480 --> 01:38:19.117
beginning. All the articles were ending
with Palmer's still employed. Palmer is

01:38:19.200 --> 01:38:24.077
still employed. According to Facebook,
Palmer is currently still employed and

01:38:24.160 --> 01:38:27.597
they just couldn't wait for the followup
where they could take my scalp. So,

01:38:27.680 --> 01:38:29.837
Facebook tried to get me to resign and I

01:38:29.920 --> 01:38:34.797
refused. They tried to get me to not say
anything. Eventually, they wrote their

01:38:34.880 --> 01:38:36.557
own statement for me that basically just

01:38:36.640 --> 01:38:39.917
said, "I'm sorry for the negative impact

01:38:40.000 --> 01:38:42.637
this is having on Facebook's uh

01:38:42.720 --> 01:38:47.757
reputation and I want to uh I am
going to be taking a voluntary leave of

01:38:47.840 --> 01:38:50.557
absence." In reality, they told me
I couldn't come into the office until

01:38:50.640 --> 01:38:54.477
after the election. It was it was that
explicit. You can't come in until after

01:38:54.560 --> 01:38:58.477
the election. Their thinking was, "Okay,
Palmer is like the leader of our virtual

01:38:58.560 --> 01:39:02.077
reality organization." They knew they
actually needed me. It was getting rid

01:39:02.160 --> 01:39:04.397
of me is not a thing
that they could easily do.

01:39:04.480 --> 01:39:06.877
>> Mhm. >> And their thought
was, "Okay, we know

01:39:06.960 --> 01:39:10.157
that Palmer didn't post these racist
memes." Like, Facebook did not know

01:39:10.240 --> 01:39:13.597
Facebook knew none of this was true,
right? So, they knew that this was just

01:39:13.680 --> 01:39:17.277
a media invention, but they didn't want
to push back. They didn't want to say

01:39:17.360 --> 01:39:20.877
anything. kind of like where you know
you you see Mark now coming out and

01:39:20.960 --> 01:39:23.037
finally saying okay the Hunter Biden

01:39:23.120 --> 01:39:28.317
laptop thing maybe you know that wasn't
good but this was 2016 it was it was a

01:39:28.400 --> 01:39:31.917
different universe so they they were
hoping that I would take this leave of

01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:36.557
absence disappear until after the election
they believed Hillary would win

01:39:36.640 --> 01:39:40.557
and then if Hillary won they thought all
their employees and the press would kind

01:39:40.640 --> 01:39:44.717
of forget about this whole thing because
it would just be this crazy time that

01:39:44.800 --> 01:39:48.397
Palmer supported that fringe candidate
who lost in a landslide to Hillary

01:39:48.480 --> 01:39:51.517
Clinton. Remember, she had
a 95% chance of winning. So

01:39:51.600 --> 01:39:53.197
>> now I told them
this was a bad strategy.

01:39:53.280 --> 01:39:56.877
I said, "Guys, what you don't understand
is Donald Trump is going to win." And

01:39:56.960 --> 01:39:59.997
they thought that I was just like insane.
They like literally when I said

01:40:00.080 --> 01:40:03.117
that, they said, "Wow, I thought you

01:40:03.200 --> 01:40:05.757
were a smart person." I'm like, "No,

01:40:05.840 --> 01:40:07.677
guys, I am a smart person. Donald Trump

01:40:07.760 --> 01:40:12.797
is going to win." Like I will accept
that there's a possibility he won't, but

01:40:12.880 --> 01:40:17.197
all of the signs are that he is going
to win. Like the problem is that the media

01:40:17.280 --> 01:40:19.277
is reporting on Donald Trump the same

01:40:19.360 --> 01:40:21.837
way that they're reporting on me. An

01:40:21.920 --> 01:40:24.477
absurd, totally baseless way that is out

01:40:24.560 --> 01:40:28.957
of touch with reality. Don't fall
for that. And uh they said, "No, no, you

01:40:29.040 --> 01:40:31.037
have to stay out of the office till
after the election." So the day after

01:40:31.120 --> 01:40:35.197
the election, Trump had won. They said,
"Actually, you can't come back to the

01:40:35.280 --> 01:40:37.517
office." >> Are you serious?
>> I'm serious. They said, "You can't come

01:40:37.600 --> 01:40:40.877
back into the office." And that was when
the machinery went into motion to get

01:40:40.960 --> 01:40:42.317
rid of me. They realized that with Trump

01:40:42.400 --> 01:40:44.717
in office that and like there were

01:40:44.800 --> 01:40:48.157
Facebook executives publicly saying I

01:40:48.240 --> 01:40:52.557
will not work with Trump supporters.
I will not have them on my team. Which is

01:40:52.640 --> 01:40:55.677
although by the way illegal in California,
but you know, you you'd have

01:40:55.760 --> 01:40:59.917
to bring a case about it. And especially
back then, Republicans weren't really I

01:41:00.000 --> 01:41:02.557
think we weren't punching square.
I think that most of them were like, I

01:41:02.640 --> 01:41:05.597
just want to get [__] done. I just want
to get paid. I'm not I'm not trying to

01:41:05.680 --> 01:41:09.517
be a professional victim, right?
Like what what what red-blooded Republican

01:41:09.600 --> 01:41:13.677
man wants to basically go into
a courtroom be like they're so mean to me?

01:41:13.760 --> 01:41:18.797
They said they said that they don't like
me cuz I voted for Trump. Like doesn't

01:41:18.880 --> 01:41:22.397
that just sound like this is like
the the dumbest little [__] ever? Like

01:41:22.480 --> 01:41:26.317
wouldn't everyone laugh at you even
if you won? And I think and so people

01:41:26.400 --> 01:41:28.877
didn't people people wanted to they
wanted to get work done. They didn't

01:41:28.960 --> 01:41:31.357
want to they didn't want to be
a professional victim and put themselves

01:41:31.440 --> 01:41:35.437
out there as the whiny, you know,
whiny little boy who who who sad his

01:41:35.520 --> 01:41:38.317
co-workers don't like him.
in a hostile workplace environment.

01:41:38.400 --> 01:41:41.437
>> Did you have any conversations
with Zuckerberg and in person?

01:41:41.520 --> 01:41:45.277
>> No, because the lawyers were very
like they they they very quickly isolate

01:41:45.360 --> 01:41:48.557
things like this. Like the moment they
realized that this was turning into a

01:41:48.640 --> 01:41:51.517
problem, they like they're like you
cannot come to the office. You cannot

01:41:51.600 --> 01:41:54.557
send any messages. You cannot send any
emails. You may only communicate through

01:41:54.640 --> 01:41:58.317
attorneys. Like there there is a
lockdown protocol to minimize to

01:41:58.400 --> 01:42:00.477
minimize accountability on these things.

01:42:00.560 --> 01:42:03.917
And so it wasn't until uh and so they

01:42:04.000 --> 01:42:07.517
they told me though even even after the
election they said you can come back. We

01:42:07.600 --> 01:42:10.957
really need you. Like we all recognize
that you're the guy and that you're

01:42:11.040 --> 01:42:14.557
you're a critical part of the team.
We just need you to stay out of the office

01:42:14.640 --> 01:42:18.157
for a little longer and we're going
to figure this all out. And then January

01:42:18.240 --> 01:42:22.477
rolled around and uh their attorneys
called my attorneys and said, "You're

01:42:22.560 --> 01:42:25.597
being fired. You're being terminated
without cause." Oh, that was the other

01:42:25.680 --> 01:42:28.717
thing I forgot. They launched
an internal investigation into me. They

01:42:28.800 --> 01:42:31.997
wanted to try and dig up some kind
of policy violation. They wanted to try to

01:42:32.080 --> 01:42:35.997
find a reason to fire me that they could
say had nothing to do with politics. And

01:42:36.080 --> 01:42:40.077
so that went for months and they
dug through all my emails and all my

01:42:40.160 --> 01:42:41.917
communications. And they interviewed

01:42:42.000 --> 01:42:47.197
dozens of Facebook employees being like
just like full Gustapo style. You know,

01:42:47.280 --> 01:42:50.877
what have you ever heard about Palmer
Lucky doing something bad? Like what

01:42:50.960 --> 01:42:53.837
what do you know? What have you ever
heard? And I was like, I literally have

01:42:53.920 --> 01:42:57.277
never heard Palmer even mention politics.
He's just like a VR guy. He

01:42:57.360 --> 01:43:01.117
gave $9,000 to this Trump group,
I think, on a whim because he has billions

01:43:01.200 --> 01:43:03.997
of dollars like like this doesn't seem

01:43:04.080 --> 01:43:08.557
he he's and so they they tried to find
something on me and they found literally

01:43:08.640 --> 01:43:11.997
nothing. So their investigation
concluded and I I remember being in the

01:43:12.080 --> 01:43:15.597
room with because it's a formal process
and they they let you know when you're

01:43:15.680 --> 01:43:19.917
being investigated and in the end they
said we just want we found no violations

01:43:20.000 --> 01:43:21.837
of Facebook policy at any point in your

01:43:21.920 --> 01:43:27.117
tenure. And I and and like
so that was when they

01:43:27.200 --> 01:43:31.037
realized they were going to have to fire
me without cause. They just said, "Well,

01:43:31.120 --> 01:43:34.957
we were paying you tens of millions
of dollars a year and we've just decided

01:43:35.040 --> 01:43:38.557
for no reason. We don't need you
employed anymore." And uh it was it look

01:43:38.640 --> 01:43:40.397
it was it was totally ridiculous. It was

01:43:40.480 --> 01:43:43.117
totally trumped up. [snorts] They didn't

01:43:43.200 --> 01:43:47.517
ever ask me about people who were
discriminating against me for my

01:43:47.600 --> 01:43:49.837
politics, right? They they were
they were saying, "Oh, we did this

01:43:49.920 --> 01:43:53.517
investigation and Palmer was not fired
for his politics." Like, well, you never

01:43:53.600 --> 01:43:56.877
asked me about it. If you would have
told me, "Palmer, are you aware of any

01:43:56.960 --> 01:44:00.077
instances of people being discriminated
against their politics?" Like, "Yeah, I

01:44:00.160 --> 01:44:03.197
give you like two dozen." If they
asked me, "Palmer, were you fired from

01:44:03.280 --> 01:44:06.077
politics?" Like, "Yeah, I can literally
give you the emails and messages where

01:44:06.160 --> 01:44:10.397
people explicitly state that they will
not work with me because of how I" And

01:44:10.480 --> 01:44:13.837
so, like it was it was just it was it
was insanity. Like, they and they were

01:44:13.920 --> 01:44:16.477
the worst part is they were even telling
the media this. They were saying, "Oh,

01:44:16.560 --> 01:44:20.557
no. It was it was Palmer's decision
to leave. Literally untrue. I was I was

01:44:20.640 --> 01:44:24.637
terminated. They said they told one
journalist uh off the record, but you

01:44:24.720 --> 01:44:27.677
know, off the record doesn't mean
anything. Um they told one journalist

01:44:27.760 --> 01:44:30.557
off the record that uh it was something

01:44:30.640 --> 01:44:32.877
like they said, "Look, Palmer leaving

01:44:32.960 --> 01:44:37.837
was his decisions. It's not like this
is Soviet Russia where you say something

01:44:37.920 --> 01:44:41.837
say some the wrong thing about the wrong
politician and then get disappeared." It

01:44:41.920 --> 01:44:43.757
was it was literally just like that.

01:44:43.840 --> 01:44:47.357
Anyway, I'm sorry I seem worked up about
this, but just like I I I hate getting

01:44:47.440 --> 01:44:50.477
back into this headsp
space because it was just

01:44:50.560 --> 01:44:52.237
>> it was supposed to if I was you, too.

01:44:52.320 --> 01:44:54.797
>> I mean, it you got to remember this was

01:44:54.880 --> 01:44:59.677
this was Sorry, I need to do some water.

01:44:59.760 --> 01:45:02.637
>> Oculus was everything to me.

01:45:02.720 --> 01:45:04.477
All my friends worked at Oculus.

01:45:04.560 --> 01:45:08.637
Remember I told it was started by me and
all my all my friends worked there. All

01:45:08.720 --> 01:45:11.037
the friends that I made working over the

01:45:11.120 --> 01:45:14.397
course of, you know, half a decade on

01:45:14.480 --> 01:45:18.157
that particular product were were there.

01:45:18.240 --> 01:45:20.397
My reputation was there. My work was

01:45:20.480 --> 01:45:23.197
there. All of the technology that I've

01:45:23.280 --> 01:45:25.597
been developing since I was 13 years old

01:45:25.680 --> 01:45:29.117
for VR was owned by that company. of

01:45:29.200 --> 01:45:31.917
everything like I was Oculus and then

01:45:32.000 --> 01:45:36.477
they said, "No, we're taking it all
away from you and you can't even talk to

01:45:36.560 --> 01:45:40.637
anybody or we're going to come after you
and if you say a word of this to anyone,

01:45:40.720 --> 01:45:42.477
we're we're going to come after you."

01:45:42.560 --> 01:45:45.117
And so for me, it was just it was a a

01:45:45.200 --> 01:45:49.277
catastrophically destructive event. And

01:45:49.360 --> 01:45:51.357
I I wish that I would have acted

01:45:51.440 --> 01:45:54.077
differently in the moment. But the the

01:45:54.160 --> 01:45:56.477
mistake I made was trusting that people

01:45:56.560 --> 01:46:01.357
could have different politics from me
but still treat me fairly. And I didn't

01:46:01.440 --> 01:46:03.917
realize that when they told me, "Oh,
you're still important part of the

01:46:04.000 --> 01:46:06.077
team." I didn't realize that was a pure

01:46:06.160 --> 01:46:09.837
manipulation tactic to prevent me from

01:46:09.920 --> 01:46:13.277
leverage. Like I had leverage. There
were things that they needed from me.

01:46:13.360 --> 01:46:17.277
There were things I was doing. They
basically were just manipulating me to

01:46:17.360 --> 01:46:19.597
try and squeeze the last little bit of

01:46:19.680 --> 01:46:24.717
juice for me for a few months before
just getting rid of me. Wow. Yep.

01:46:24.800 --> 01:46:27.917
Anyway, that was that was how that all
went down. What would you have done

01:46:28.000 --> 01:46:31.437
different? So, first of all,

01:46:31.520 --> 01:46:34.557
I would have put out my own statement

01:46:34.640 --> 01:46:38.477
which which I had already written. I I
I I should have just put it out. And the

01:46:38.560 --> 01:46:41.357
thing is I realized later, I didn't know

01:46:41.440 --> 01:46:44.077
at the time that political activity

01:46:44.160 --> 01:46:47.037
outside of your employer, like outside

01:46:47.120 --> 01:46:49.917
of your job is protected. At least in

01:46:50.000 --> 01:46:54.717
California, they cannot do anything
about polit like they cannot tell you to

01:46:54.800 --> 01:46:56.637
not endorse a candidate, for example.

01:46:56.720 --> 01:46:59.837
They can tell you you can't do it
wearing a Facebook shirt. You can't do

01:46:59.920 --> 01:47:02.397
it while you're on the clock at Facebook.
Of course, lots of Facebook

01:47:02.480 --> 01:47:05.277
employees do that. You know, they
Hillary Clinton was was everywhere. They

01:47:05.360 --> 01:47:09.197
were literally using the campus print
shop to print I'm with her posters that

01:47:09.280 --> 01:47:12.237
they were plastering all over San
Francisco. Like if you were for Hillary,

01:47:12.320 --> 01:47:16.317
it was absolutely no problem. But I
should have said, you know what, that

01:47:16.400 --> 01:47:20.397
that aside, I should have just gone out
and said, hey, the media is lying. They

01:47:20.480 --> 01:47:24.397
are lying to all of you. This is
completely false. This is a like this is

01:47:24.480 --> 01:47:29.197
fake news to the ultimate degree. The
press is lying about me to try and take

01:47:29.280 --> 01:47:34.397
my scalp. And I think that would have
probably caused a lot of it would have

01:47:34.480 --> 01:47:36.797
pissed them off because I wouldn't
have been allowing them to run the PR

01:47:36.880 --> 01:47:39.757
strategy. But the way that it's supposed
to work, just if you've never worked at

01:47:39.840 --> 01:47:43.917
a big company, the trade you're making
when you allow the company to run your

01:47:44.000 --> 01:47:45.997
PR strategy is implicitly that they're

01:47:46.080 --> 01:47:47.597
not going to fire you, right? Basically,

01:47:47.680 --> 01:47:51.037
it's it's okay. The trade is do things

01:47:51.120 --> 01:47:56.237
our way and you get to stay safe because
otherwise there's no incentive to do

01:47:56.320 --> 01:47:59.117
things their way. Otherwise, you do just
go off on your own. You say, "Fuck you.

01:47:59.200 --> 01:48:02.637
I'm going to do whatever I want.
I shouldn't have made that trade. I should

01:48:02.720 --> 01:48:06.237
have gone out gotten the truth out there.
And I think people would have

01:48:06.320 --> 01:48:09.757
been pissed that I didn't let Facebook,
you know, do their preferred option,

01:48:09.840 --> 01:48:12.717
which was to say nothing bad about the
They literally told me I couldn't I said

01:48:12.800 --> 01:48:15.517
I'm I'm against Hillary Clinton because
I think she's going to drag us into

01:48:15.600 --> 01:48:17.597
World War II. She said that she's going

01:48:17.680 --> 01:48:22.797
to enforce the nofly zone in Syria,
which is like that is saying I'm going

01:48:22.880 --> 01:48:24.557
to shoot down. People think I will

01:48:24.640 --> 01:48:29.837
enforce a no-fly zone means you just
like say words and it's like mean to

01:48:29.920 --> 01:48:33.437
pretend you have the authority. No,
enforcing a no-fly zone means that a

01:48:33.520 --> 01:48:36.557
Russian aircraft is going to enter
Syrian airspace and the United States is

01:48:36.640 --> 01:48:40.957
going to shoot it down. And I I was I
was looking at I was like, "Holy shit."

01:48:41.040 --> 01:48:43.997
I like I'm one of the people who
wants to get out of the Middle East,

01:48:44.080 --> 01:48:45.757
especially at the tail end of things.

01:48:45.840 --> 01:48:50.637
I'm like, "That will drag us back."
Can you imagine doing doing this [__] all

01:48:50.720 --> 01:48:53.437
over again with the Russians
in the Middle East?

01:48:53.520 --> 01:48:56.237
And they said, "You can't say any of this.
You cannot say anything negative

01:48:56.320 --> 01:48:59.277
about Hillary Clinton. You cannot say
anything positive about Donald Trump."

01:48:59.360 --> 01:49:02.637
And I should have just realized, "Wait
a sec. I this is literally illegal. I

01:49:02.720 --> 01:49:05.037
should just put it out there."
They would have been upset with me

01:49:05.120 --> 01:49:08.637
temporarily that I didn't follow their
strategy, but it would have been much

01:49:08.720 --> 01:49:11.117
harder for them to fire me in the end.

01:49:11.200 --> 01:49:13.357
The master stroke of their strategy was

01:49:13.440 --> 01:49:16.237
that in refusing to deny the allegations

01:49:16.320 --> 01:49:19.117
against me, they became true. Right?

01:49:19.200 --> 01:49:21.517
Perception is reality. my refusal to

01:49:21.600 --> 01:49:25.357
address them and Facebook's refusal to

01:49:25.440 --> 01:49:28.797
point out that it was all made up.
In the minds of everybody, they said,

01:49:28.880 --> 01:49:32.637
"Well, it's it must be true.
He is funding white supremacist troll

01:49:32.720 --> 01:49:35.117
campaigns. He is funding people to

01:49:35.200 --> 01:49:37.117
attack other people on the internet. He

01:49:37.200 --> 01:49:42.237
is funding a title wave of anti-semitic
memes all over the internet because why

01:49:42.320 --> 01:49:46.157
wouldn't they believe it? I never even
said that it wasn't true." And I I think

01:49:46.240 --> 01:49:47.837
if if I had made clear that it wasn't

01:49:47.920 --> 01:49:53.360
true, they I probably would have
gotten through it. [sighs and gasps]

01:49:53.760 --> 01:49:59.357
>> Wow. >> It's a it's a it's it's
a >> what a crazy place to work.

01:49:59.440 --> 01:50:02.717
>> It really Well, and you know what
was even crazier was that they maintained

01:50:02.800 --> 01:50:06.237
for years and years and years that I was

01:50:06.320 --> 01:50:08.157
not fired for my politics. Zuck got

01:50:08.240 --> 01:50:09.757
asked about it when he was in front of

01:50:09.840 --> 01:50:13.437
Congress. Um yeah, it was Ted Cruz who

01:50:13.520 --> 01:50:18.157
asked him uh Senator Cruz uh you know
uh why you know why did you fire Palmer

01:50:18.240 --> 01:50:20.957
Lucky and he said oh I I don't think
that's an appropriate this is an

01:50:21.040 --> 01:50:23.757
appropriate form. He said you have
to answer the question and Zach said

01:50:23.840 --> 01:50:25.597
something like

01:50:25.680 --> 01:50:29.677
I I I can only commit that it was not uh

01:50:29.760 --> 01:50:33.837
it was not a political matter or something
like that which was to be fair

01:50:33.920 --> 01:50:37.517
to Mark I don't think he was lying.
I think that his team had correctly

01:50:37.600 --> 01:50:40.077
properly insulated him from from it.

01:50:40.160 --> 01:50:44.077
Like when when when you're illegally
firing employees for their politics, you

01:50:44.160 --> 01:50:47.677
don't bring that to the most important
people in the company and basically

01:50:47.760 --> 01:50:52.957
poison them. Like that's poisoning the
king. Like to show if you're like, "Hey

01:50:53.040 --> 01:50:57.117
king, here's this thing. Uh we're
performing illegal activity." Like you

01:50:57.200 --> 01:50:58.957
you've just screwed them over now

01:50:59.040 --> 01:51:03.037
because now they do know. And uh now am

01:51:03.120 --> 01:51:06.557
I to say that there's no sus there
was no suspicion or you know a kind of

01:51:06.640 --> 01:51:08.397
understanding as to what would happen of

01:51:08.480 --> 01:51:12.077
you know I I wouldn't go that far but

01:51:12.160 --> 01:51:16.317
it was crazy how they maintained
for years and years and years that polit

01:51:16.400 --> 01:51:20.557
they literally literally their CTO
Andrew Bosworth publicly on multiple

01:51:20.640 --> 01:51:22.877
occasions said Palmer's termination had

01:51:22.960 --> 01:51:26.877
nothing to do with politics. It was not

01:51:26.960 --> 01:51:30.637
a factor in any way whatsoever.

01:51:30.720 --> 01:51:33.677
And they were telling people, they
started telling me that I was fired for

01:51:33.760 --> 01:51:36.797
cause. They're like, "Oh, we can't tell
you why he was fired, but believe me, we

01:51:36.880 --> 01:51:40.637
had no choice.
He did something that was just beyond

01:51:40.720 --> 01:51:44.877
the pale. We had to fire him. We had no
choice." Um, I did, by the way, sort of

01:51:44.960 --> 01:51:47.277
get victory on this. So, uh, I will give

01:51:47.360 --> 01:51:49.597
credit to him. Andrew Bosworth about a

01:51:49.680 --> 01:51:54.557
month ago did post on Twitter. He said
something like, you can pull up the

01:51:54.640 --> 01:51:58.477
exact one if you want and put it up
on the screen. He said something like, "I

01:51:58.560 --> 01:52:01.037
want to apologize to Palmer Lucky. I've

01:52:01.120 --> 01:52:03.357
been saying things about him in the past

01:52:03.440 --> 01:52:05.597
that weren't true. I just want people to

01:52:05.680 --> 01:52:08.397
know that I was misled by others and

01:52:08.480 --> 01:52:10.397
that we are sorry and it shouldn't have

01:52:10.480 --> 01:52:13.437
gone down that way and I was wrong." So,

01:52:13.520 --> 01:52:17.757
they are actually finally acknowledging
that the story they were putting out

01:52:17.840 --> 01:52:19.757
there that politics was not a factor and

01:52:19.840 --> 01:52:22.157
that I was fired for any reason at all

01:52:22.240 --> 01:52:25.917
is is nonsense. But uh you know it's a

01:52:26.000 --> 01:52:29.197
it's it's a it's sparse
comfort a decade on.

01:52:29.280 --> 01:52:32.637
>> Yeah. Wow. So you leave I mean are you

01:52:32.720 --> 01:52:35.757
involved with Eddie VR now?

01:52:35.840 --> 01:52:41.117
>> A little bit. We've got some big news
coming soon. Big news on the andal side.

01:52:41.200 --> 01:52:44.477
>> I tell you we're going to break that
here in a little bit. All right. Let's

01:52:44.560 --> 01:52:51.480
take a quick break. Let's do it. When we
come back we'll get into and sounds good.

01:53:01.040 --> 01:53:04.797
I have one more thing actually that's
fun along those lines. I recently got

01:53:04.880 --> 01:53:06.797
the the Meta Ray-B bands. Have you seen

01:53:06.880 --> 01:53:08.957
those? The little camera glasses

01:53:09.040 --> 01:53:11.917
>> and um it it once it's all set up it

01:53:12.000 --> 01:53:16.237
says ask Meta about anything. Just say

01:53:16.320 --> 01:53:19.597
okay Meta and then ask your question.

01:53:19.680 --> 01:53:21.997
It's like

01:53:22.080 --> 01:53:25.597
Okay, Meta, when was Palmer Lucky fired?

01:53:25.680 --> 01:53:27.517
And it goes [laughter] boop. Palmer

01:53:27.600 --> 01:53:31.437
Lucky was fired on March 29th, 2017

01:53:31.520 --> 01:53:34.397
after being found guilty of stealing

01:53:34.480 --> 01:53:36.717
intellectual property in a trade secret

01:53:36.800 --> 01:53:41.677
lawsuit. And then it links to a story
on ZDNet where the guy says, "I was found

01:53:41.760 --> 01:53:45.197
guilty of this crime." But he's
literally wrong. It literally didn't

01:53:45.280 --> 01:53:48.877
happen because first of all, being found
guilty is for criminal cases, not civil

01:53:48.960 --> 01:53:51.917
cases. two, I literally won on all of

01:53:52.000 --> 01:53:56.077
the charges around trade secrets. Like,
we literally won on and the judge threw

01:53:56.160 --> 01:53:59.677
out all the damages against me and said,
"Yeah, he's not guilty of any of this."

01:53:59.760 --> 01:54:04.077
So, like, but what's crazy is,
of course, like the average person, like

01:54:04.160 --> 01:54:07.677
you you ask these questions and these
things that journalists write are being

01:54:07.760 --> 01:54:10.637
brought up years in the future as the

01:54:10.720 --> 01:54:12.957
basis for AI knowledge. And like you, if

01:54:13.040 --> 01:54:15.437
you ask these AI systems, as far as they

01:54:15.520 --> 01:54:18.877
know, it's all true. It's all true. So,

01:54:18.960 --> 01:54:20.797
you know, according to these AIs, I was

01:54:20.880 --> 01:54:24.877
fired after I funded a title wave of

01:54:24.960 --> 01:54:29.357
anti-semitic memes.
>> And it's just and like and how do you

01:54:29.440 --> 01:54:32.637
undo that, right? It's like it's it's
this persistent harm that just lasts

01:54:32.720 --> 01:54:35.757
forever. Like, let's say that I could
get them by sending my lawyers after

01:54:35.840 --> 01:54:38.157
them now to remove these stories. Well,

01:54:38.240 --> 01:54:42.797
there's still these huge AI models
that have been trained on a decade now of

01:54:42.880 --> 01:54:46.637
reporting and re-reporting. How do you
how do you undo that? It's a it's a it's

01:54:46.720 --> 01:54:50.157
a big problem when you've got so
much [__] that's been put out there. A

01:54:50.240 --> 01:54:53.037
title wave of it.
I'd say maybe the majority of it.

01:54:53.120 --> 01:54:56.477
>> Well, I think the the good news is I
think the majority of people now know

01:54:56.560 --> 01:55:00.237
that legacy media is complete [__] >>
Well, that's why the media is so freaked

01:55:00.320 --> 01:55:03.277
out. >> Yeah. Yeah.
It's they're trying they're

01:55:03.360 --> 01:55:06.877
now trying to replicate podcasts.

01:55:06.960 --> 01:55:09.677
>> Yep. You I mean you you you saw the bit

01:55:09.760 --> 01:55:13.997
where Elon was saying to people he
says you are the media now in the modern

01:55:14.080 --> 01:55:17.677
world. you have the tools to get
your message out and people can amplify

01:55:17.760 --> 01:55:21.677
others based on who has the closest
proximity to the real information who

01:55:21.760 --> 01:55:25.917
actually has the activity like we
can be primary sources we don't need

01:55:26.000 --> 01:55:29.597
intermediaries and then you have like
the national press club you see this

01:55:29.680 --> 01:55:31.277
speech where they have this guy up on

01:55:31.360 --> 01:55:33.437
stage he says he doesn't matter what

01:55:33.520 --> 01:55:36.877
Elon says they are not the press we are

01:55:36.960 --> 01:55:38.877
the press I'm like oh my god this guy's

01:55:38.960 --> 01:55:42.637
so he's so out of touch with just the

01:55:42.720 --> 01:55:45.917
American moment Like like who's going to

01:55:46.000 --> 01:55:47.757
hear that and be like, "Yeah, he's

01:55:47.840 --> 01:55:50.797
right. How dare citizen journalists

01:55:50.880 --> 01:55:53.437
without credentials report on things?"

01:55:53.520 --> 01:55:59.277
>> Yeah. Wow. >> So you get So you're done
at Facebook, you got fired from Facebook.

01:55:59.360 --> 01:56:03.917
>> Yep. >> And then you
move into Andural. So how

01:56:04.000 --> 01:56:06.237
long is the How long's the gap here?

01:56:06.320 --> 01:56:10.157
>> Same day. >> I literally >>
I literally picked up the phone

01:56:10.240 --> 01:56:12.397
>> and I had been talking with people.

01:56:12.480 --> 01:56:14.477
Well, I got to backtrack a little bit.

01:56:14.560 --> 01:56:16.477
Before I started Oculus, when I was a

01:56:16.560 --> 01:56:20.957
teenager, I had worked for almost a year

01:56:21.040 --> 01:56:23.277
on an army project called Bravemind.

01:56:23.360 --> 01:56:24.477
Have you ever heard of this? No.

01:56:24.560 --> 01:56:28.637
>> It was at the ICT mixed reality lab. Uh

01:56:28.720 --> 01:56:31.917
there was a project that was being
worked on called Bravemind that was

01:56:32.000 --> 01:56:36.397
using virtual reality exposure therapy
to treat veterans with PTSD. The idea

01:56:36.480 --> 01:56:39.677
was that you could put them
into virtual reality simulations

01:56:39.760 --> 01:56:42.797
of things that would trigger their PTSD.

01:56:42.880 --> 01:56:47.357
Uh, and you could teach them coping
exercises, thinking exercises to

01:56:47.440 --> 01:56:50.557
mitigate their physiological responses
under the guidance of a licensed

01:56:50.640 --> 01:56:54.317
therapist. You could also expose them
to things that they might be exposed to in

01:56:54.400 --> 01:56:55.997
the battlefield ahead of time to help

01:56:56.080 --> 01:57:01.757
them learn how to cope with that ahead
of time. And uh, I was not doing any

01:57:01.840 --> 01:57:03.837
important work on the program. I don't
want to make it sound like I was like

01:57:03.920 --> 01:57:07.197
one of the key researchers. I was the
cable monkey. I was the lab technician.

01:57:07.280 --> 01:57:11.277
I was making making stuff go, making
headmounted displays work, designing

01:57:11.360 --> 01:57:13.037
stuff to kind of support the program.

01:57:13.120 --> 01:57:15.197
But that was my first exposure to how

01:57:15.280 --> 01:57:20.237
the government uses technology, the good
that it can do in our military, but also

01:57:20.320 --> 01:57:23.757
how broken a lot of the procurement
systems are in terms of how they buy

01:57:23.840 --> 01:57:27.837
things, how they procure things,
the incentives that happen when you have

01:57:27.920 --> 01:57:31.437
cost plus contracts involved. cost plus
contractors involved who make more money

01:57:31.520 --> 01:57:34.957
when the contract runs long, more
money when they make the more expensive

01:57:35.040 --> 01:57:37.117
decisions rather than the faster, more

01:57:37.200 --> 01:57:40.157
efficient decisions. And that

01:57:40.240 --> 01:57:44.157
experience, small as it was, stuck with
me through my whole career. And I had a

01:57:44.240 --> 01:57:48.077
lot of conversations with friends who
did work in defense, whether working

01:57:48.160 --> 01:57:50.957
literally, you know, uh, in the military

01:57:51.040 --> 01:57:55.837
or building tools for the military who
gave me these stories that you would

01:57:55.920 --> 01:57:59.197
just never believe about how broken
things were, how much money was being

01:57:59.280 --> 01:58:02.637
wasted and grafted and misspent.

01:58:02.720 --> 01:58:04.877
And so when I made all my Oculus money,

01:58:04.960 --> 01:58:09.837
one of the first things I did was try to
find small defense startups that I could

01:58:09.920 --> 01:58:14.077
invest in that had a shot at changing
this. My thinking was, okay, I've made

01:58:14.160 --> 01:58:18.317
all this money. I don't have the time
to work on this problem at all, but I want

01:58:18.400 --> 01:58:22.077
to find companies that have a shot
at changing this structure, proving that

01:58:22.160 --> 01:58:26.477
you can apply technology from the tech
industry and bring it into, you know,

01:58:26.560 --> 01:58:28.717
bring it into uh into these defense

01:58:28.800 --> 01:58:32.877
spaces in a really meaningful way. And I

01:58:32.960 --> 01:58:36.157
ended up not really making any
investments. There was a couple tiny

01:58:36.240 --> 01:58:38.877
things, but nothing material because
I couldn't find anybody who was doing

01:58:38.960 --> 01:58:41.677
things the way that I wanted. I couldn't
find anyone who was trying to build

01:58:41.760 --> 01:58:45.357
basically the next Loheed Martin
or the next Northrup Grman. I mostly found

01:58:45.440 --> 01:58:49.037
companies that were building some little
gizmo or gadget but like a part of the

01:58:49.120 --> 01:58:52.237
bigger machine but they weren't going
to change anything and they weren't out

01:58:52.320 --> 01:58:56.157
there trying to change
things at a big scale.

01:58:56.240 --> 01:58:58.717
And so I made some friends who were
doing a similar thing. So one of those

01:58:58.800 --> 01:59:03.117
was Trey Stevens who's one of the
co-founders at Anderall. He was at the

01:59:03.200 --> 01:59:05.917
time working full-time as a venture
capitalist at Founders Fund, which is

01:59:06.000 --> 01:59:08.637
Peter Teal's venture firm
[snorts and clears throat]

01:59:08.720 --> 01:59:13.837
or one of his venture firms rather.
And uh he was full-time trying to find

01:59:13.920 --> 01:59:16.797
exactly the same thing I was. He
was meeting with hundreds of small defense

01:59:16.880 --> 01:59:20.557
companies trying to find ones that were
had a shot of really becoming something

01:59:20.640 --> 01:59:23.357
big and meaningful. And uh we ended up

01:59:23.440 --> 01:59:27.677
becoming friends. I met Brian Shy who
was director of engineering at Palunteer

01:59:27.760 --> 01:59:31.757
at the time. uh and a few other people,
my friend Joe Chen, who was an early

01:59:31.840 --> 01:59:35.677
Oculus employee, former paratrooper,
really interested in trying to figure

01:59:35.760 --> 01:59:39.437
out how to use technology to make DoD
better. And so what happened was uh

01:59:39.520 --> 01:59:43.037
after these years of meeting all
the time and just complaining, oh my god,

01:59:43.120 --> 01:59:47.037
isn't this all screwed up? Aren't we
wasting so much money on nonsense? Isn't

01:59:47.120 --> 01:59:50.717
it a shame there's no company that could
come in and really go toe-to-toe with

01:59:50.800 --> 01:59:55.117
these big guys and, you know, give
them a threat? And uh the day that I was

01:59:55.200 --> 01:59:58.957
fired, I picked up the phone. I called
Joe and I called Brian and I called

01:59:59.040 --> 02:00:01.757
Trey. I said, "Hey, you know guys, we've

02:00:01.840 --> 02:00:06.477
been trying to find a company that we
could invest in that does this. I think

02:00:06.560 --> 02:00:09.197
we should start it ourselves.
I think now's the moment." And they said,

02:00:09.280 --> 02:00:12.637
"Palmer, we're all so busy like,
you know, running engineering at Palunteer

02:00:12.720 --> 02:00:14.797
or being a venture capitalist or in your

02:00:14.880 --> 02:00:20.067
case running Oculus." I said, you know,
it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

02:00:20.150 --> 02:00:22.877
[laughter] And so that was really that was

02:00:22.960 --> 02:00:27.757
>> so they had no idea >> that I
I I I let I let them know but you

02:00:27.840 --> 02:00:30.877
know it was it was um >> that's
a sacrifice I'm willing to take.

02:00:30.960 --> 02:00:33.197
>> It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

02:00:33.280 --> 02:00:36.637
And uh and so I I I'd say like the early

02:00:36.720 --> 02:00:40.717
the early Andreal crew is like that
group of people that had been thinking

02:00:40.800 --> 02:00:45.517
all these problems. Uh some people from
Oculus who resigned when they fired me.

02:00:45.600 --> 02:00:48.877
There was there was a there was a pretty
large contingent of people who said what

02:00:48.960 --> 02:00:52.397
you did to Palmer is [__] up.
and wrong and I refused to be part of it.

02:00:52.480 --> 02:00:55.437
I'm out of here. And uh the funniest

02:00:55.520 --> 02:00:58.397
part is that of that contingent kind of

02:00:58.480 --> 02:01:00.877
the the people who left because of the

02:01:00.960 --> 02:01:05.837
way Facebook treated me then many
of them came to work at Andreal and

02:01:05.920 --> 02:01:07.197
they said Paul what are you doing next?

02:01:07.280 --> 02:01:10.557
Like I I want to be
a part of whatever it is.

02:01:10.640 --> 02:01:15.037
And then some of them when they found
out I was starting a weapons company

02:01:15.120 --> 02:01:18.877
never talked to me again. They're like
they were they were huge fans of me.

02:01:18.960 --> 02:01:20.557
They believed I was treated unfairly.

02:01:20.640 --> 02:01:24.397
And then when they found out that the
thing I thought was most important to me

02:01:24.480 --> 02:01:28.157
for to work on, which is to build better
tools for our national security, save

02:01:28.240 --> 02:01:30.877
taxpayers hundreds of billions by making

02:01:30.960 --> 02:01:33.597
tens of billions, they they literally

02:01:33.680 --> 02:01:38.237
concluded that I had become an evil
person and never wanted to talk to me

02:01:38.320 --> 02:01:42.317
again. Some of them have then come back
around as world events have shifted like

02:01:42.400 --> 02:01:44.957
you know this is 2017. So, as it became

02:01:45.040 --> 02:01:47.117
more clear that China is an aggressor

02:01:47.200 --> 02:01:49.837
and not a benevolent fountain of money,

02:01:49.920 --> 02:01:52.397
as it became clear that Russia is still

02:01:52.480 --> 02:01:54.717
an expansionist dictatorship and not a

02:01:54.800 --> 02:01:57.597
reformed quasi western gas station, uh

02:01:57.680 --> 02:02:01.757
people have come back and said, "Okay,
I was wrong. What you're doing is not

02:02:01.840 --> 02:02:05.597
evil." But at the time it was very
controversial. A lot of people believed

02:02:05.680 --> 02:02:07.917
that anything you did with the military

02:02:08.000 --> 02:02:10.557
was either useless or evil or

02:02:10.640 --> 02:02:14.957
wararmongering. The fact that you were
saving them money was actually to the

02:02:15.040 --> 02:02:18.077
detriment. Like I said, guys, we're
we're spending way too much money on

02:02:18.160 --> 02:02:21.277
these weapon systems. They said, "Oh,
so you're going to make it so they can buy

02:02:21.360 --> 02:02:25.597
10 times as many weapons?" Wow. As if
that's better. Like, well, well, guys,

02:02:25.680 --> 02:02:27.757
if you hate the military, like if you

02:02:27.840 --> 02:02:32.717
hate NATO, for example, like,
should they be armed with water balloons?

02:02:32.800 --> 02:02:34.717
Should they be armed with slingshots?

02:02:34.800 --> 02:02:38.637
Like, like what what level of force are
you okay with them having? Like if you

02:02:38.720 --> 02:02:43.197
if you believe that NATO has any reason
to exist at a level beyond like kids

02:02:43.280 --> 02:02:46.877
with water balloons, then you should
probably want them to be armed with

02:02:46.960 --> 02:02:51.117
things that can actually beat our
adversaries. And the problem is that at

02:02:51.200 --> 02:02:54.797
that point people just they stop talking
to you and say, "Fuck you, fascist." And

02:02:54.880 --> 02:02:58.797
they move like you can't reason someone
out of an opinion that they didn't

02:02:58.880 --> 02:03:01.197
reason themselves into. And and when

02:03:01.280 --> 02:03:03.277
people when you start to try to pull

02:03:03.360 --> 02:03:06.557
them out of the matrix, they are often

02:03:06.640 --> 02:03:09.197
unable to unable to make the jump.

02:03:09.280 --> 02:03:12.840
>> It's a great quote.

02:03:13.280 --> 02:03:17.437
>> So Andrew started So Andrew started we

02:03:17.520 --> 02:03:21.677
wanted to build not a defense contractor
but a defense products company. Use our

02:03:21.760 --> 02:03:25.837
own money to decide what to build, how
to build it, decide when it's done, and

02:03:25.920 --> 02:03:29.117
then sell products based on those
technologies to the United States

02:03:29.200 --> 02:03:33.997
government. I was a strong believer
and I I I get to look like a visionary

02:03:34.080 --> 02:03:37.757
today, but back then I looked like
a crazy person. I was a strong believer

02:03:37.840 --> 02:03:41.917
that the entire future of warfare would
be defined by artificial intelligence

02:03:42.000 --> 02:03:43.837
and autonomy. This fundamental

02:03:43.920 --> 02:03:48.477
decoupling of the 1:1 ratio from shooter

02:03:48.560 --> 02:03:52.397
to weapon, from pilot to plane, to allow

02:03:52.480 --> 02:03:55.597
smaller numbers of people to wield many

02:03:55.680 --> 02:03:59.517
swords was kind of the was kind of the
thinking there. I knew that would that

02:03:59.600 --> 02:04:03.437
would change everything. Not just with
small cheap drones, but even with large

02:04:03.520 --> 02:04:08.237
scale systems, like if you can get
people out of harm's way, and if you can

02:04:08.320 --> 02:04:12.397
allow them to leverage their own
intellect beyond what they can hold and

02:04:12.480 --> 02:04:17.357
steer with their own two hands,
if you can basically become a person who

02:04:17.440 --> 02:04:21.917
manages weapons at a higher level while
they micromanage the second to second

02:04:22.000 --> 02:04:25.677
execution of your commands, you can
fundamentally change warfare in a way

02:04:25.760 --> 02:04:31.117
that I think is very accreative to US
interests and very very against the

02:04:31.200 --> 02:04:34.237
world that let's say China or Russia
wants to exist largely because I think

02:04:34.320 --> 02:04:38.957
these advantages acrew mostly to the
defender. Uh if you're trying to build a

02:04:39.040 --> 02:04:42.477
military that is designed to turn
your allies into prickly porcupines that

02:04:42.560 --> 02:04:47.357
nobody wants to step on like you have
in NATO or most US operations. Uh that's

02:04:47.440 --> 02:04:51.117
that's really useful if you're trying to
build a military where you need to let's

02:04:51.200 --> 02:04:54.877
say go into Taiwan with landing craft
and get millions of soldiers there and

02:04:54.960 --> 02:04:57.997
invade and then occupy their territory.

02:04:58.080 --> 02:05:01.277
All of the stuff I just talked about
is a nightmare for you. Like it doesn't

02:05:01.360 --> 02:05:03.277
actually help you. The ability to wield

02:05:03.360 --> 02:05:05.997
many swords per arm is not that useful

02:05:06.080 --> 02:05:09.597
for occupying a resistant hostile land.

02:05:09.680 --> 02:05:12.957
It's it's it's a lot better for you know

02:05:13.040 --> 02:05:15.997
slug it out largecale great power fights

02:05:16.080 --> 02:05:20.157
and that's what the United States needs
to need needs to focus on winning for

02:05:20.240 --> 02:05:22.637
the most part at least right now.

02:05:22.720 --> 02:05:27.357
So were you how were you aware of how it
works then with the military industrial

02:05:27.440 --> 02:05:29.837
complex? >> Oh yeah.
I mean look like maybe

02:05:29.920 --> 02:05:32.877
>> how did you know that going with the
with all the VR stuff you were doing?

02:05:32.960 --> 02:05:36.397
>> I had I like I said you know I had
exposure from the Brave mind stuff and

02:05:36.480 --> 02:05:39.517
I'd become interested in the problem but I
done a lot of research and I'd kind of

02:05:39.600 --> 02:05:42.957
been building a theory of how someone
might be able to fix this. I'm not but

02:05:43.040 --> 02:05:45.757
there were a lot of assumptions I made
were that were wrong. Some were right.

02:05:45.840 --> 02:05:48.717
Like I I don't want to make it sound
like I came in day one and I understood

02:05:48.800 --> 02:05:53.197
the whole landscape, but you know, I had
my I had my beautiful mind chart up on

02:05:53.280 --> 02:05:56.797
the on the wall with all the with all
the strings and all the pins connecting

02:05:56.880 --> 02:05:58.797
where I thought where I thought the bad

02:05:58.880 --> 02:06:03.837
[__] was and where we could be going
after. Um, and I I was right enough like

02:06:03.920 --> 02:06:07.117
I was right. I was right about enough
of the problems that we were able to

02:06:07.200 --> 02:06:11.117
actually get some traction. Basically,
our bet was simple. We decided we were

02:06:11.200 --> 02:06:15.037
going to put all of our money into
building this AI called Blattis, which

02:06:15.120 --> 02:06:19.197
is a military focused AI that is built
to the standards you need for military,

02:06:19.280 --> 02:06:21.037
the reliability you need for military

02:06:21.120 --> 02:06:26.317
that could act as a tool that would
be the brains of dozens of products. So

02:06:26.400 --> 02:06:28.957
basically make LA a lattice, you know,
being something you can build other

02:06:29.040 --> 02:06:30.717
things on top of. they was build this

02:06:30.800 --> 02:06:34.397
lattice AI as a sort of core software

02:06:34.480 --> 02:06:36.397
product and then you can build on top of

02:06:36.480 --> 02:06:38.637
it autonomous fighter jets, autonomous

02:06:38.720 --> 02:06:42.157
tanks, cruise missiles, small arms,

02:06:42.240 --> 02:06:45.997
surveillance systems, security systems,
drone defense systems and they all kind

02:06:46.080 --> 02:06:50.557
of share this common brain. And so
we started by building Lettuce and we

02:06:50.640 --> 02:06:52.157
started building products on top of it.

02:06:52.240 --> 02:06:55.517
Uh some of them for the military,
some of them for customs and border

02:06:55.600 --> 02:06:57.117
protection. Actually, our first major

02:06:57.200 --> 02:07:00.477
program of record was was with CBP. Uh,

02:07:00.560 --> 02:07:04.557
and uh, against all odds,
we've actually managed

02:07:04.640 --> 02:07:08.157
to make it work. Like, like today,
Android is still making Lattus and we

02:07:08.240 --> 02:07:11.757
have over two dozen different hardware
products that are all using that same AI

02:07:11.840 --> 02:07:15.997
brain. >> Wow. Wow.
Like one of our big wins recently.

02:07:16.080 --> 02:07:17.997
>> So, you have basically you're talking

02:07:18.080 --> 02:07:20.797
about Skynet from the Terminator.

02:07:20.880 --> 02:07:24.317
>> Yes. that like I mentioned earlier that

02:07:24.400 --> 02:07:28.477
I read a lot of books and I've
read a lot of science fiction.

02:07:28.560 --> 02:07:29.837
One of the things that I've realized in

02:07:29.920 --> 02:07:32.477
my career is that nothing I ever come up

02:07:32.560 --> 02:07:37.677
with will be new. I've I've literally
never come up with an idea that a

02:07:37.760 --> 02:07:40.877
science fiction author has not come up
with before at some point. Which makes

02:07:40.960 --> 02:07:44.477
sense. There's a lot of them. They've
been around for a long time. And they

02:07:44.560 --> 02:07:47.277
don't have to make things and they don't
have to wait to the right moment. You

02:07:47.360 --> 02:07:50.877
remember I started Oculus at just
the right moment for it to succeed. A

02:07:50.960 --> 02:07:53.917
science fiction author doesn't have
to wait for something to be possible to

02:07:54.000 --> 02:07:58.077
think about it and to write about it and
for people to be excited about the idea.

02:07:58.160 --> 02:08:01.677
And so, uh, every time I've come up
with something, I've been able to find

02:08:01.760 --> 02:08:06.797
usually many, sometimes one science
fiction pieces addressing literally

02:08:06.880 --> 02:08:10.237
exactly that idea by some guy who just
thought thought about it like 50 years

02:08:10.320 --> 02:08:13.917
ago, 60 years ago, 70 years ago. Some
of the stuff that I'm building today, for

02:08:14.000 --> 02:08:17.757
example, in the ARVR space around
augmenting the vision of soldiers, these

02:08:17.840 --> 02:08:20.877
are ideas that are from 1959 like

02:08:20.960 --> 02:08:25.277
Starship Troopers novels, right? Like
these are old ideas that have only very

02:08:25.360 --> 02:08:28.157
recently become technologically feasible.
The idea of autonomous fighter

02:08:28.240 --> 02:08:32.157
jets that's been around for about
a hundred years. The idea of making a

02:08:32.240 --> 02:08:36.477
computer that is so good you can
program it with a general intent at the

02:08:36.560 --> 02:08:40.237
beginning and then it executes on a
mission all on its own. People have been

02:08:40.320 --> 02:08:43.597
thinking of this since computers were
programmed with punch cards. They were

02:08:43.680 --> 02:08:47.357
imagining a punch card computer
that could do the whole management of a

02:08:47.440 --> 02:08:49.357
bombing mission during World War II. The

02:08:49.440 --> 02:08:53.517
tech wasn't ready, but the idea was.

02:08:53.600 --> 02:08:55.677
And so you you're bringing up Skynet and

02:08:55.760 --> 02:09:00.237
I think that uh like Skynet makes a ton

02:09:00.320 --> 02:09:03.117
of sense except for one critical

02:09:03.200 --> 02:09:05.597
mistake. They gave it control of the

02:09:05.680 --> 02:09:08.637
United States nuclear arsenal. Um, like

02:09:08.720 --> 02:09:12.877
I I always like to think how Terminator
might have gone if uh one, you know,

02:09:12.960 --> 02:09:14.637
Skynet wouldn't have achieved sensience.

02:09:14.720 --> 02:09:17.917
But even more to the point, what if they
just would have used it for the weapon

02:09:18.000 --> 02:09:20.877
systems that actually make sense for AI
to control, right? There's there's

02:09:20.960 --> 02:09:24.637
actually not a lot of gains in having
an advanced artificial intelligence have

02:09:24.720 --> 02:09:26.237
control of your nuclear weapons. It's

02:09:26.320 --> 02:09:28.957
like, it's all risk and no upside. Mhm.

02:09:29.040 --> 02:09:31.677
>> There is a lot of upside in allowing

02:09:31.760 --> 02:09:36.157
people to get out of, let's say, tip
of the spear fighter jets where they are

02:09:36.240 --> 02:09:38.957
going to need to fly into areas that
are very well defended by surface air

02:09:39.040 --> 02:09:42.637
missiles and you know you're going to lose
a large fraction of your of your of

02:09:42.720 --> 02:09:47.437
your fleet. Like that that is a job for
robots, not for people. And so like one

02:09:47.520 --> 02:09:49.917
of the things we said we're going
to build start of the company and probably

02:09:50.000 --> 02:09:53.277
our biggest win that we've had as a
company so far is a recent contract we

02:09:53.360 --> 02:09:56.397
won called CCA. Uh so we won a spot on

02:09:56.480 --> 02:09:59.357
increment one for CCA competing against

02:09:59.440 --> 02:10:03.837
Northup Grumman, Loheed Martin and Boeing.
So it's us toe-to-toe with the

02:10:03.920 --> 02:10:06.157
big guys saying we are going to build a

02:10:06.240 --> 02:10:11.517
fighter jet powered by RAI that
is better than all of the systems

02:10:11.600 --> 02:10:14.317
being proposed by these people who have
been around for a century. And guess

02:10:14.400 --> 02:10:17.117
what? We beat all of them.
>> Damn. Congratulations.

02:10:17.200 --> 02:10:20.877
>> And thank you. It it was a huge moment
for our company. you just see in the

02:10:20.960 --> 02:10:22.957
office. People were screaming and

02:10:23.040 --> 02:10:26.717
cheering and throwing chairs. It was and

02:10:26.800 --> 02:10:29.757
we did it because we managed to build

02:10:29.840 --> 02:10:33.837
this very powerful AI system and all the

02:10:33.920 --> 02:10:38.477
expertise we needed to build a fighter
jet that is capable of going toe-to-toe

02:10:38.560 --> 02:10:42.317
with all of these other companies. Like
like oh [__] we've built in eight years

02:10:42.400 --> 02:10:46.957
from like it, you know, Chris Dykus was
employee number one Oculus and employee

02:10:47.040 --> 02:10:51.357
number one at Anderol. was the first guy
to, you know, he he he got right out of

02:10:51.440 --> 02:10:52.797
Facebook, said, "You guys are [__] up.

02:10:52.880 --> 02:10:55.037
I'm going to do whatever Palmer does."

02:10:55.120 --> 02:10:57.917
We've gone from me hiring Chris Dyus as

02:10:58.000 --> 02:11:03.240
employee number one to being selected

02:11:03.840 --> 02:11:08.077
against Lockheed, Boeing, Northrup,
companies that have a stellar, you know,

02:11:08.160 --> 02:11:11.197
stellar reputation for building really
sick aircraft for the better part of a

02:11:11.280 --> 02:11:15.517
century. We've done that. We've we've
gone from me and Chris to that in less

02:11:15.600 --> 02:11:20.557
than eight years. And it's because we
are taking the best of modern technology

02:11:20.640 --> 02:11:23.757
development practices, including many
that I learned while I was at Facebook

02:11:23.840 --> 02:11:28.397
in Silicon Valley and bringing them
to defense manufacturing, defense

02:11:28.480 --> 02:11:32.077
production. Like what we're doing is like
I I we're not supermen here, right?

02:11:32.160 --> 02:11:35.517
I'm not saying we're like these
brilliant Einstein level geniuses. What

02:11:35.600 --> 02:11:40.077
we're doing is taking techniques,
approaches, and people who used to be

02:11:40.160 --> 02:11:43.917
making AR mustache emojis in Silicon
Valley and putting them to work on

02:11:44.000 --> 02:11:47.277
problems that actually matter, ones that
actually get them stoked in the morning

02:11:47.360 --> 02:11:51.277
to to to come to work. And if you take
the best technologists in the country

02:11:51.360 --> 02:11:54.797
and you put them to work on a problem
that they actually care about and they

02:11:54.880 --> 02:11:56.077
really believe in, you're going to

02:11:56.160 --> 02:11:57.837
extraordinary things come out of it.

02:11:57.920 --> 02:12:02.157
>> So, did this idea develop from Skynet?

02:12:02.240 --> 02:12:03.917
>> I'd say Skynet was maybe part of it.

02:12:04.000 --> 02:12:06.397
like no [__] >> Well,
here's here's what it really is.

02:12:06.480 --> 02:12:08.717
Skynet itself is not actually a unique

02:12:08.800 --> 02:12:12.157
idea. Like the idea of uh of kind of AI

02:12:12.240 --> 02:12:16.477
management systems that are able
to manage large numbers of autonomous

02:12:16.560 --> 02:12:20.077
weapons. They've literally been around
for a hundred years. Like Skynet was

02:12:20.160 --> 02:12:22.317
Skynet was just the one that happened to

02:12:22.400 --> 02:12:24.717
kind of capture the public imagination.

02:12:24.800 --> 02:12:30.077
Uh but there are lots and lots and lots
lots of examples. I mean like not not to

02:12:30.160 --> 02:12:33.117
say that this is the best example, but
look at like Star Wars Episode One, you

02:12:33.200 --> 02:12:36.397
know? I don't know if you remember.
Do you remember Star Wars episode one?

02:12:36.480 --> 02:12:39.437
>> A little bit. Well, you know, the the
the crux of people who haven't watched

02:12:39.520 --> 02:12:42.717
it, which you know, they're not super
missing out. Uh episode 3 was great.

02:12:42.800 --> 02:12:45.597
Episode one, you can you can you you
can skip it if you're not a Star Wars

02:12:45.680 --> 02:12:50.237
person, but the Trade Federation imposes
a blockade on Nebu and they send down

02:12:50.320 --> 02:12:54.157
all of these robots and they're all
controlled by one central AI that's up

02:12:54.240 --> 02:12:57.117
in the ship that's orbiting above
and they have to destroy that ship so that

02:12:57.200 --> 02:13:00.317
they can shut down all of the robots. By
the way, there's something to be learned

02:13:00.400 --> 02:13:05.517
from that, which is put the AI brain in
each of the robots. Don't require a data

02:13:05.600 --> 02:13:08.957
link that can be jammed or hacked
or broken or a central command post that

02:13:09.040 --> 02:13:12.637
can be destroyed. Anyway, they didn't
know that on Naboo. Uh the Trade

02:13:12.720 --> 02:13:15.757
Federation really screwed up and they
had it all going on in the cloud. But

02:13:15.840 --> 02:13:19.357
like uh for some reason, nobody
remembers nobody remembers the Trade

02:13:19.440 --> 02:13:21.917
Federation. They all
just talk about Skynet.

02:13:22.000 --> 02:13:25.117
Wow. So you develop you develop the AI

02:13:25.200 --> 02:13:29.037
mind, but you also develop and what
we could and what's cool is we like we

02:13:29.120 --> 02:13:32.717
developed that AI mind, but we can
basically optimize it for different

02:13:32.800 --> 02:13:36.477
things and train it how to do things
that normally they would have been done

02:13:36.560 --> 02:13:40.157
by not just a person but an expert person.
For example, we use Lattice to

02:13:40.240 --> 02:13:44.157
pilot our fighter jets. We are training
them how to do things based on data from

02:13:44.240 --> 02:13:48.797
the world's best fighter pilots. And we
are using Lattis to power our underwater

02:13:48.880 --> 02:13:52.077
submarines. We make a lot of underwater
submarines for the United States, but al

02:13:52.160 --> 02:13:56.237
also really mostly for Australia right
now. And that submarine is able to

02:13:56.320 --> 02:13:57.917
listen to things, differentiate things.

02:13:58.000 --> 02:14:02.957
It can basically be an expert sonar
operator and an expert submarine pilot

02:14:03.040 --> 02:14:07.597
and an expert energy management
specialist. And you can basically take

02:14:07.680 --> 02:14:11.517
all of this expertise from hundreds
of different roles and jam it into one

02:14:11.600 --> 02:14:14.957
brain. You can build one system like
Lattis that is the world's best fighter

02:14:15.040 --> 02:14:19.677
pilot, submarine pilot, sensor reader,
and small arms operator that the world's

02:14:19.760 --> 02:14:23.517
ever seen. And to to be able to cram
that all into one brain, it's a it's

02:14:23.600 --> 02:14:27.917
it's a it's a powerful thing. >> Wow.
So, you're developing the mind,

02:14:28.000 --> 02:14:31.917
you're also developing the aircraft, the
autonomous aircraft, the autonomous sub

02:14:32.000 --> 02:14:35.997
>> in some cases. So, one of the most
common misconceptions about Andal is

02:14:36.080 --> 02:14:39.597
that Lattis is only a brain for the things
that we make. We do make a lot of

02:14:39.680 --> 02:14:43.277
hardware like we make surveillance
towers, we make fighter jets, we make

02:14:43.360 --> 02:14:47.037
submarines, we make loitering munitions
that are being used in Taiwan and

02:14:47.120 --> 02:14:49.037
Ukraine.

02:14:49.120 --> 02:14:51.277
But what are loitering munitions?

02:14:51.360 --> 02:14:54.717
>> So basically think uh think like uh

02:14:54.800 --> 02:14:59.597
weapons that can go somewhere, observe
a target, and then choose when and how to

02:14:59.680 --> 02:15:03.597
strike it. So not like not like
artillery is not loitering. a thing that

02:15:03.680 --> 02:15:07.437
like a missile that flies to an area
then pops out wings and orbits overhead

02:15:07.520 --> 02:15:10.637
for 10 minutes watching what they're
doing and figuring out what it's going

02:15:10.720 --> 02:15:13.437
to do. Uh that that would
be a loitering munition.

02:15:13.520 --> 02:15:16.237
>> Okay. >> Um and uh
we've actually had a lot of

02:15:16.320 --> 02:15:20.077
success in Russ uh like between Russia
and Ukraine. Uh we're on the Ukrainian

02:15:20.160 --> 02:15:24.957
side obviously. Um they've been using
our munitions to strike at things that

02:15:25.040 --> 02:15:27.997
other weapons don't have enough range
or can't get through jamming bubbles to

02:15:28.080 --> 02:15:31.117
attack. So the Russians, for example,
will be jamming communications. So other

02:15:31.200 --> 02:15:33.037
drones can't get in to destroy these

02:15:33.120 --> 02:15:34.797
targets. Our drones, because they're

02:15:34.880 --> 02:15:38.477
piloted by AI, can fly in, orbit above,

02:15:38.560 --> 02:15:42.157
let's say, you know, a jamming truck or
a surface air missile launcher, and then

02:15:42.240 --> 02:15:44.637
figure out the right time to go
in and strike it and destroy it.

02:15:44.720 --> 02:15:45.997
>> And the mind is in the aircraft.

02:15:46.080 --> 02:15:50.637
>> And the mind is in the aircraft.
So >> but but um >> so you really

02:15:50.720 --> 02:15:54.237
>> Oh, so sorry. But what what I
wanted to finish and say is the common

02:15:54.320 --> 02:15:57.597
misconception is that because we built
these hardware products on top of Lattis

02:15:57.680 --> 02:15:59.677
that Lattis is only for Android hardware

02:15:59.760 --> 02:16:03.117
products. That is not the case. We have

02:16:03.200 --> 02:16:06.077
we have integrated Lattice with over 100

02:16:06.160 --> 02:16:08.477
existing DoD platforms. So we're taking

02:16:08.560 --> 02:16:10.557
these brains and we're hooking them up

02:16:10.640 --> 02:16:13.437
to systems that are already used by DoD.

02:16:13.520 --> 02:16:17.677
So like vehicles they already have,
weapons they already have, sensors that

02:16:17.760 --> 02:16:21.197
they already have. We're basically
taking everything, not just our weapons,

02:16:21.280 --> 02:16:24.957
but everything that they have, and we're
trying to glue it all together into one

02:16:25.040 --> 02:16:30.317
common hive mind so that all the people,
all the vehicles, all the robots have a

02:16:30.400 --> 02:16:31.837
common shared view of the world.

02:16:31.920 --> 02:16:34.157
Basically, in real time, seeing
everything that's going on on the

02:16:34.240 --> 02:16:36.797
battlefield. So, you know where the good
guys are, you know where the bad guys

02:16:36.880 --> 02:16:40.157
are. You're able to predict what's going
to happen in the near future so that you

02:16:40.240 --> 02:16:44.077
can have everything kind of, you know,
skating to the puck as it were, rather

02:16:44.160 --> 02:16:49.117
than reacting to what happened 10
minutes ago. And uh it's it's a really

02:16:49.200 --> 02:16:52.557
powerful thing to do to take these
systems that used to be siloed and you

02:16:52.640 --> 02:16:56.397
know just be their own little stovepipe
worlds and instead bring them into one

02:16:56.480 --> 02:17:00.317
gigantic brain. >> Holy [__]

02:17:00.400 --> 02:17:02.717
That's incredible. It's some good [__]

02:17:02.800 --> 02:17:07.517
One of the things that I've started
working on lately is a project I I've

02:17:07.600 --> 02:17:09.197
never wanted to build humanoid robots.

02:17:09.280 --> 02:17:11.917
Not myself because there's so many
other companies that are doing a good job

02:17:12.000 --> 02:17:15.917
building humanoid robots. And I've just
been I I I've known for a few years now

02:17:16.000 --> 02:17:19.997
that they're on the edge of being real
and I've been waiting for that to happen

02:17:20.080 --> 02:17:23.517
because humanoid robots
are not good enough to

02:17:23.600 --> 02:17:25.757
let's say replace a Navy Seal. But they

02:17:25.840 --> 02:17:28.877
are good enough to replace let's say an

02:17:28.960 --> 02:17:31.357
elderly man. Like they can hobble around

02:17:31.440 --> 02:17:33.997
and pull levers and push buttons with

02:17:34.080 --> 02:17:38.477
about the same ability as a guy in his
90s as I'd say where most humanoid

02:17:38.560 --> 02:17:40.877
robots are today.

02:17:40.960 --> 02:17:43.677
It turns out that if you can put a brain

02:17:43.760 --> 02:17:46.637
like Lattis into one of those robots,

02:17:46.720 --> 02:17:52.077
you can basically use that as a way
to convert legacy weapon systems into AI

02:17:52.160 --> 02:17:56.877
powered weapon systems. So imagine
that I have a an old Soviet era so surface

02:17:56.960 --> 02:18:00.237
air missile launcher and normally you
need a bunch of guys to stand around it

02:18:00.320 --> 02:18:03.037
watching a screen picking out targets.

02:18:03.120 --> 02:18:05.277
They have to turn on the generator,
right? You know, you have to pull the

02:18:05.360 --> 02:18:08.637
lever, you have to prime the pumps, you
got to put the choke and you know, start

02:18:08.720 --> 02:18:12.877
the whole thing up. But what if you
could have a humanoid robot doing all of

02:18:12.960 --> 02:18:15.917
that? All of a sudden, this thing that
used to have a bunch of humans that made

02:18:16.000 --> 02:18:19.997
it a really really juicy target. Now you
could put it up on a hill and say, "Oh

02:18:20.080 --> 02:18:23.757
yeah, it's just a bunch of robots."
And I've worked it into the greater hive

02:18:23.840 --> 02:18:27.517
mind. Now the data that it's collecting
is being shared out to hundreds of other

02:18:27.600 --> 02:18:31.997
weapons in real time. And so I'm pretty
excited about humanoid robots, not for

02:18:32.080 --> 02:18:35.517
what they can do at the high end,
but more for just taking a lot of these

02:18:35.600 --> 02:18:38.957
legacy systems. Like imagine you have
an old Humvey, right? How cool would it be

02:18:39.040 --> 02:18:40.717
if instead of having to build a brand

02:18:40.800 --> 02:18:46.077
new AI powered vehicle with like AI
actual rope, you have all these new cars

02:18:46.160 --> 02:18:49.917
that Tesla's making that are capable
of steering themselves. What if instead of

02:18:50.000 --> 02:18:52.957
buying all new AI powered cars for the

02:18:53.040 --> 02:18:58.397
military, I can take a humanoid robot,
I can tell it to walk over to that Humvey,

02:18:58.480 --> 02:19:01.677
get in and drive it around as an
autonomous vehicle. It doesn't make

02:19:01.760 --> 02:19:05.277
sense for consumers. For consumers,
you should just, you know, uh just buy an

02:19:05.360 --> 02:19:09.357
autonomous car. But where the military
already has literally trillions of

02:19:09.440 --> 02:19:12.957
dollars in inventory. Like remember we
we have a we have a budget of hundreds

02:19:13.040 --> 02:19:17.757
of billions of dollars a year. But the
military has trillions and trillions of

02:19:17.840 --> 02:19:22.397
dollars of hardware that they've already
bought. I am not out to make them reby

02:19:22.480 --> 02:19:25.917
all of that.
Some of it they'll need to reby.

02:19:26.000 --> 02:19:29.517
But I want to make sure we're leveraging
all these tools we already have as well.

02:19:29.600 --> 02:19:33.197
We need to bring AI to everything,
not just AI to new weapons.

02:19:33.280 --> 02:19:37.757
>> Wow. you have completely
revolutionized warfare as we know it.

02:19:37.840 --> 02:19:41.597
>> And by the way, you can see where
with their current business model like

02:19:41.680 --> 02:19:44.797
warfare, but also think about like the
amount of money or the first page of our

02:19:44.880 --> 02:19:49.677
first pitch deck said and will save
taxpayers hundreds of billions a year by

02:19:49.760 --> 02:19:52.637
making tens of billions a year.
If you're in the business of making those

02:19:52.720 --> 02:19:55.357
trillions of dollars of hardware, you're
probably pretty spooked by a company

02:19:55.440 --> 02:19:58.157
like Anderil coming in and saying,
"Well, maybe you actually don't have to

02:19:58.240 --> 02:20:01.037
buy reby a bunch of stuff. Maybe you can
actually keep using a lot of the systems

02:20:01.120 --> 02:20:04.397
you already have." Or worse, maybe you
can buy stuff from Andre that's a tenth

02:20:04.480 --> 02:20:06.157
of the price of the stuff that you've

02:20:06.240 --> 02:20:08.637
been buying from the other guys. It's we

02:20:08.720 --> 02:20:11.917
are as taxpayers paying way too much for

02:20:12.000 --> 02:20:16.157
everything. I mean, how like when
you were in, you probably had to pay

02:20:16.240 --> 02:20:21.037
government prices for for for for for
for various things. Like you're familiar

02:20:21.120 --> 02:20:23.597
with like companies will literally
charge the government a different price

02:20:23.680 --> 02:20:26.317
than they charge civilians or and I
know technically they're not allowed to

02:20:26.400 --> 02:20:28.637
charge government more, but they have
like the government version, right? And

02:20:28.720 --> 02:20:31.757
it's like the special government paint
like, oh yeah, the special government

02:20:31.840 --> 02:20:35.517
paint version of this of this like optic
that's going on this rifle. It's it's

02:20:35.600 --> 02:20:39.117
going to be $4,500. Meanwhile, as a
civilian, you can go buy something for

02:20:39.200 --> 02:20:43.837
$500 that is just as good. I mean, we
we have to stop doing that as a country.

02:20:43.920 --> 02:20:46.797
>> Very familiar with that.
>> Eisenhower was right when he said that

02:20:46.880 --> 02:20:50.077
in a very real sense, every rifle made,

02:20:50.160 --> 02:20:53.277
every bomb dropped represents a child

02:20:53.360 --> 02:20:57.757
deprived of an education,
a library never built, a hospital never

02:20:57.840 --> 02:21:01.917
constructed. Like, I feel like a lot
of people forget that those two things are

02:21:02.000 --> 02:21:04.877
tied together. It doesn't mean we need
to be hippies about it and pretend that

02:21:04.960 --> 02:21:09.437
war is never going to happen, but we
need to be spending the right amount on

02:21:09.520 --> 02:21:13.277
these things. We cannot we cannot treat
it as right now. It's almost like you

02:21:13.360 --> 02:21:16.237
can't question it because you can't
question like if you question defense

02:21:16.320 --> 02:21:19.997
spending you're questioning
the existence of the military. That like

02:21:20.080 --> 02:21:23.997
that's that's just that's that's just
crazy to me. There's no other part of

02:21:24.080 --> 02:21:26.957
our society where you can get away
with that. Where you like oh you can't no

02:21:27.040 --> 02:21:30.717
that's not true. Education. You can't
question education either. You can't say

02:21:30.800 --> 02:21:32.637
aren't we spending too much on education

02:21:32.720 --> 02:21:35.917
for how bad it is and be like how dare

02:21:36.000 --> 02:21:39.677
you attack our brave teachers who are
educating all of our children. It's

02:21:39.760 --> 02:21:42.717
like, "No, no, I'm not attacking the
teachers." It's just, you know, it seems

02:21:42.800 --> 02:21:47.277
like we spend a lot of money for kids
to get grades this bad. Like, the kids

02:21:47.360 --> 02:21:52.477
can't read good or do other stuff good,
too. So, could the Navy Seal be

02:21:52.560 --> 02:21:56.327
replaced? Oh, man.
This is an interesting one.

02:21:56.410 --> 02:22:00.717
[snorts] I don't think so on a quite long

02:22:00.800 --> 02:22:03.917
timeline for a few reasons. First of all,
it's a bit it's it's the nature of

02:22:04.000 --> 02:22:07.277
the job. Like, I'll tell you,
here's someone who will be replaced. that

02:22:07.360 --> 02:22:12.157
hilltop surfaceto-air missile operator,
right? Like he's that is a crazy

02:22:12.240 --> 02:22:16.157
dangerous job. You're the first thing
that everyone wants to take out before

02:22:16.240 --> 02:22:17.597
they can get through to everything else.

02:22:17.680 --> 02:22:21.997
Like you're going to die. We we have
to get rid of that guy. But then you look

02:22:22.080 --> 02:22:25.917
at what like a lot of Navy Seals do and
what like like or like look look at what

02:22:26.000 --> 02:22:29.837
Green Berets do.
It's so much about interacting

02:22:29.920 --> 02:22:32.877
extremely closely with people, around

02:22:32.960 --> 02:22:37.517
people, among people in infrastructure
that was designed for people. I think

02:22:37.600 --> 02:22:41.277
it's going to be really really hard
to make robots that do that set of things.

02:22:41.360 --> 02:22:45.597
It's it's it's remember I said robots can
do the jobs that a 90-year-old man can do.

02:22:45.680 --> 02:22:48.557
>> Okay, they're going to eventually do
the job that a 70-year-old man can do and

02:22:48.640 --> 02:22:51.757
then eventually they'll be able to do
what like a average in shape 50-year-old

02:22:51.840 --> 02:22:54.557
man can do. to build humanoid robots

02:22:54.640 --> 02:22:57.757
that can do what a Navy Seal in the

02:22:57.840 --> 02:23:00.317
prime of his life, you know, probably

02:23:00.400 --> 02:23:03.277
secretly uh secretly roided out. Like

02:23:03.360 --> 02:23:06.077
that's that's a really high bar for a

02:23:06.160 --> 02:23:10.717
robot to hit, especially when it comes
to his ability to break the rules or

02:23:10.800 --> 02:23:13.837
make a decision that wasn't programmed
or decide that he's going to do

02:23:13.920 --> 02:23:18.317
something that a robot's just never
going to do. It's it's my my intuition

02:23:18.400 --> 02:23:21.997
here is like that's going to be the last
job to be figured out. Um, it's it's a

02:23:22.080 --> 02:23:25.437
little bit like it's not a perfect
example, but it's like the the you know,

02:23:25.520 --> 02:23:29.677
is AI going to replace like the jobs
of our politicians. It's like, you know,

02:23:29.760 --> 02:23:33.597
that's probably like the last thing
to go like in in a in in a in a very real

02:23:33.680 --> 02:23:37.917
sense. There's certain parts of our
society that are almost like envoys of

02:23:38.000 --> 02:23:42.237
America. They represent what we're doing.
And I I I think that we're not

02:23:42.320 --> 02:23:43.597
going to outsource that to robots anymore.

02:23:43.680 --> 02:23:47.837
>> So So we're a long ways out
from replacing a a tier one assaulter.

02:23:47.920 --> 02:23:50.397
>> I think we're a long
way out. And that's and

02:23:50.480 --> 02:23:53.357
>> what is a long way out?

02:23:53.440 --> 02:23:56.477
>> 30 40 50 years minimum. I there's some

02:23:56.560 --> 02:24:00.797
things that move fast and others that
that don't. But I because here's here's

02:24:00.880 --> 02:24:02.797
the other thing you have to remember
and I think we talked about this a little

02:24:02.880 --> 02:24:04.877
bit earlier, but you're also able to

02:24:04.960 --> 02:24:07.757
augment people. So the the the the right

02:24:07.840 --> 02:24:10.957
comparison is not Navy Seal of today

02:24:11.040 --> 02:24:13.677
versus robot 10 years from now. It's

02:24:13.760 --> 02:24:18.077
what could a Navy Seal look like in 10
years in terms of their uh you know

02:24:18.160 --> 02:24:22.957
biological modifications or conditioning
in terms of their mental modifications

02:24:23.040 --> 02:24:26.797
or conditioning things like exoskeletons,
things like more advanced

02:24:26.880 --> 02:24:30.717
mobility, things like more advanced
small arms. All of those are going to

02:24:30.800 --> 02:24:35.197
make the Navy Seal a a moving target
as well. So the robots would have to get

02:24:35.280 --> 02:24:37.277
not just as good as a seal of today.

02:24:37.360 --> 02:24:40.157
They're going to have to be as good
of a seal of that era. And I think we're

02:24:40.240 --> 02:24:43.037
going to keep investing in I think we're
going to keep investing in the guys on

02:24:43.120 --> 02:24:45.197
the ground. Hopefully a lot
more than we have been. Like

02:24:45.280 --> 02:24:47.517
>> you're involved
with exoskeletons, correct?

02:24:47.600 --> 02:24:52.877
>> Well, we I I don't know how invol I
I just ran a sub 8 minute mile for the

02:24:52.960 --> 02:24:56.557
first time in my life. And I'm usually
I'm usually the guy who's wheezing to do

02:24:56.640 --> 02:24:59.437
a sub 10-minute mile. Uh and last night

02:24:59.520 --> 02:25:03.677
I ran a sub8 mile in an exoskeleton that

02:25:03.760 --> 02:25:06.957
uh ran I basically it ran out of thermal

02:25:07.040 --> 02:25:11.037
capacity 2/ird of the way through the run.
So, uh, the last third of the run,

02:25:11.120 --> 02:25:14.637
I was actually going slower than I
normally would run, but the first two/3s

02:25:14.720 --> 02:25:18.717
were so fast I still actually when I
go home tonight, I'm going to be making

02:25:18.800 --> 02:25:23.437
some mods to the cooling
system uh, that the company

02:25:23.520 --> 02:25:26.077
I don't want to badmouth the company.
I think that they made a mistake on the

02:25:26.160 --> 02:25:29.757
cooling system. Um, and so I'm going
to be doing some mods tonight that I

02:25:29.840 --> 02:25:32.477
already have the parts sitting in the
garage for and I'm going to run I think

02:25:32.560 --> 02:25:35.917
I'm going to run a sub seven mile anyway.
I'm I'm I'm I'm like an outof

02:25:36.000 --> 02:25:39.597
shape fatty and I'm if I'm able to just
like put on a exoskeleton and run a

02:25:39.680 --> 02:25:43.277
seven-minute mile, imagine what that
could do on a Navy Seal. Um the same

02:25:43.360 --> 02:25:44.797
thing for augmenting vision. You know,

02:25:44.880 --> 02:25:47.677
right now the night vision capabilities

02:25:47.760 --> 02:25:50.717
that we give our warf fighters are not

02:25:50.800 --> 02:25:54.797
that far removed from what we had
in the '90s, right? It's still Gen 3 night

02:25:54.880 --> 02:25:58.237
vision. Sure, it's white phosphor
instead of green, and it's a little

02:25:58.320 --> 02:26:00.077
higher res and a little higher game, but

02:26:00.160 --> 02:26:02.397
it it generationally it's the it's the

02:26:02.480 --> 02:26:05.517
same. Imagine what happens when you can

02:26:05.600 --> 02:26:07.677
take that Navy Seal and you can put on a

02:26:07.760 --> 02:26:10.637
visor that gives him full peripheral

02:26:10.720 --> 02:26:15.517
vision at night in the thermal spectrum,
the visible spectrum, the ultraviolet

02:26:15.600 --> 02:26:17.437
spectrum, the hyperspectral spectrum.

02:26:17.520 --> 02:26:19.277
He's able to identify individual

02:26:19.360 --> 02:26:22.557
materials, components, vehicles,

02:26:22.640 --> 02:26:25.037
see all of his buddies, see all of the

02:26:25.120 --> 02:26:27.437
bad guys, and have information

02:26:27.520 --> 02:26:32.077
seamlessly shared between him and every
other weapon and robot and vehicle on

02:26:32.160 --> 02:26:35.917
the battlefield. like that is where
the Navy Seal is going to be in just a few

02:26:36.000 --> 02:26:40.317
years. I think it's going to be hard
for robots to compete with with that guy.

02:26:40.400 --> 02:26:42.397
>> So, how does how does the exoskeleton

02:26:42.480 --> 02:26:44.797
work? So, different exoskeletons work in

02:26:44.880 --> 02:26:47.997
different ways. Um, this particular one

02:26:48.080 --> 02:26:51.437
basically is sensing your motion uh

02:26:51.520 --> 02:26:56.077
based on your actual motion and then
it tries to predict. It actually has an

02:26:56.160 --> 02:26:59.917
onboard AI algorithm that is trying
to predict what you're doing and then it

02:27:00.000 --> 02:27:04.317
applies force that matches like
you you use power steering, right?

02:27:04.400 --> 02:27:06.717
>> You make a motion, it feels that torque

02:27:06.800 --> 02:27:11.357
and then it adds more power to it
to zero it out. It's actually not that

02:27:11.440 --> 02:27:14.397
different than that. Imagine if you had
power steering, but instead of just for

02:27:14.480 --> 02:27:18.637
turning a wheel and grinding your tires,
imagine it was every joint on your body.

02:27:18.720 --> 02:27:22.477
So you say, "Okay, I'm lifting.
I'm doing this." And it says, "Oh, he's

02:27:22.560 --> 02:27:26.797
trying to do that. I'm going to add
more power in. There's more advanced

02:27:26.880 --> 02:27:30.957
techniques that start to actually read
your muscles before they even move.

02:27:31.040 --> 02:27:34.957
Because when you tell your muscles to
move, it takes time for them to respond.

02:27:35.040 --> 02:27:37.997
That's going to be the future of
exoskeletons. It's going to be measuring

02:27:38.080 --> 02:27:42.077
your body so that instead of there being
a delay where I move, it feels it, and

02:27:42.160 --> 02:27:46.157
then it helps me, it's going to be
seamlessly integrated with you. Maybe

02:27:46.240 --> 02:27:49.677
even starting to move your arm before
your natural muscles are doing it.

02:27:49.760 --> 02:27:52.637
>> Wow. That's what like I'm and like then

02:27:52.720 --> 02:27:55.037
the crazy thing is eventually someday

02:27:55.120 --> 02:27:56.957
and I think this is way out just for a

02:27:57.040 --> 02:28:02.237
variety of basically invasive surgical
reasons. Eventually you'll be able to

02:28:02.320 --> 02:28:05.837
read those signals right from the brain
directly. So imag like right now you

02:28:05.920 --> 02:28:08.957
have a lot of latency in your in your
motion that you you don't perceive it.

02:28:09.040 --> 02:28:12.557
You think there's no latency in your body.
There's actually a couple hundred

02:28:12.640 --> 02:28:16.397
milliseconds of latency in your
movements that your brain just ignores

02:28:16.480 --> 02:28:20.557
and tells you is fine. Imagine a world
where you're wearing an exoskeleton

02:28:20.640 --> 02:28:22.797
where the moment your brain is telling

02:28:22.880 --> 02:28:25.517
your arm to move, the exoskeleton starts

02:28:25.600 --> 02:28:27.757
moving your arm. You could potentially

02:28:27.840 --> 02:28:30.237
make someone who's literally 10 times

02:28:30.320 --> 02:28:34.797
faster at moving or reacting. And dude,
that again, you see where I'm getting?

02:28:34.880 --> 02:28:36.477
Like this is that that's going to be the

02:28:36.560 --> 02:28:38.877
Navy Seal of the future. And that guy is

02:28:38.960 --> 02:28:42.237
going to be a beast. Holy [__] I've

02:28:42.320 --> 02:28:43.917
actually got a a very small scale

02:28:44.000 --> 02:28:49.277
version of this.
I built a system that uh measures when

02:28:49.360 --> 02:28:52.877
you are trying >> security guys
running around with this stuff.

02:28:52.960 --> 02:28:56.157
>> You are we we have a great security
team but I probably shouldn't I probably

02:28:56.240 --> 02:28:57.677
shouldn't talk about methods and tactics

02:28:57.760 --> 02:29:01.757
on them. Um I I built a device many

02:29:01.840 --> 02:29:05.277
years ago and I've I've I've screwed
around with it a lot of times. It

02:29:05.360 --> 02:29:09.037
basically is a small sensor that you can
mount that is able to tell when you are

02:29:09.120 --> 02:29:13.677
flexing muscles on your face.
And I hooked that up to another electrical

02:29:13.760 --> 02:29:17.837
actuator. you ever use like a 10ens unit
for like therapy area or so it's I hook

02:29:17.920 --> 02:29:21.757
up something that's a lot like a 10ens
unit but it's just rigged a little

02:29:21.840 --> 02:29:25.037
differently so that instead of making
your muscles vibrate it is made to just

02:29:25.120 --> 02:29:28.157
trigger individual muscle groups you
know like it could just basically make

02:29:28.240 --> 02:29:31.917
you you know pull this finger or pull
that finger and I made it so that

02:29:32.000 --> 02:29:34.077
whenever I

02:29:34.160 --> 02:29:36.717
even barely start to flex a muscle up

02:29:36.800 --> 02:29:39.277
here in my face it sends a signal

02:29:39.360 --> 02:29:42.077
wirelessly to a patch I have on my arm

02:29:42.160 --> 02:29:45.837
that fully fires this tendon and makes

02:29:45.920 --> 02:29:48.237
me uh makes me pull my trigger finger.

02:29:48.320 --> 02:29:52.317
Now, the thing is, if I do this normally,
like if I normally am telling

02:29:52.400 --> 02:29:55.837
my my my trigger finger to go, that
signal has to go from my brain down my

02:29:55.920 --> 02:29:59.597
spinal cord out through all these
nervous cords out into my arm, that

02:29:59.680 --> 02:30:02.557
actually takes a really really long time.
It's it's your it's your there's

02:30:02.640 --> 02:30:05.677
something called nervous transit
velocity or nervous conduction velocity.

02:30:05.760 --> 02:30:07.997
It's how fast you can send signals down

02:30:08.080 --> 02:30:10.397
your peripheral nervous system. By

02:30:10.480 --> 02:30:12.877
building a bypass for it, I can make it

02:30:12.960 --> 02:30:15.277
where I can actually, if I want to pull

02:30:15.360 --> 02:30:17.837
the trigger on my gun, I can flex that

02:30:17.920 --> 02:30:22.477
muscle on my head, which is much closer
to my brain, therefore a much much

02:30:22.560 --> 02:30:26.637
shorter pathway. And I can actually
shave a ton of latency off the delay

02:30:26.720 --> 02:30:29.917
between when I see something, when I
pull my trigger. All of a sudden, I've

02:30:30.000 --> 02:30:33.197
now reduced effectively because you
you're famil with like lock time in a

02:30:33.280 --> 02:30:36.637
firearm. It's like lock time is the time
between when you pull a trigger and when

02:30:36.720 --> 02:30:39.597
the round is actually going. and
different, you know, if you if you have

02:30:39.680 --> 02:30:42.957
like a really heavy hammer, you can
have a higher lock time. And so if you're

02:30:43.040 --> 02:30:47.197
looking at a target, you're pulling that
trigger, you have some inaccuracy that

02:30:47.280 --> 02:30:50.397
is caused purely by the lock time, when
you told it to fire and when it actually

02:30:50.480 --> 02:30:53.997
fires. And you can learn it out to some
degree by kind of predicting all this

02:30:54.080 --> 02:30:56.957
together. I can not only be faster, I

02:30:57.040 --> 02:31:01.277
can even be more accurate by just
removing that latency. Lock time, we

02:31:01.360 --> 02:31:05.917
pretend it's actually just a gun. Your
real lock time is signal from your brain

02:31:06.000 --> 02:31:09.677
to when you pull the trigger to when
the trigger reacts. And there's a lot of

02:31:09.760 --> 02:31:12.957
things we can do. So when I talked about
biological modifications and mechanical

02:31:13.040 --> 02:31:15.997
modifications, there's things that we're
going to be able to do that are going to

02:31:16.080 --> 02:31:20.877
eventually have your brain, you know,
telling you to fire some weapon and the

02:31:20.960 --> 02:31:25.037
weapon will be fired and out the barrel
and hitting the target before you before

02:31:25.120 --> 02:31:28.317
before you would have a traditional guy
would have been able to even pull the

02:31:28.400 --> 02:31:31.117
trigger. So it's it's an exciting future.

02:31:31.200 --> 02:31:33.437
>> Wow.

02:31:33.520 --> 02:31:36.317
I'm totally mind-b blown. Right. That's

02:31:36.400 --> 02:31:40.637
that's Holy [__] It's it's it's

02:31:40.720 --> 02:31:44.797
>> How long do you think it'll be before
we see exoskeletons on the battlefield?

02:31:44.880 --> 02:31:46.957
>> So, I I I do have to admit that I have

02:31:47.040 --> 02:31:49.757
said in the past that exoskeletons the

02:31:49.840 --> 02:31:54.317
time has probably come and gone. I like
I I've I've this is a public prediction

02:31:54.400 --> 02:31:58.077
that I've made.
My my belief was that exoskeletons

02:31:58.160 --> 02:32:00.717
were probably something that made sense

02:32:00.800 --> 02:32:02.797
in the 80s and the '90s if we would have

02:32:02.880 --> 02:32:05.437
invested in them. But that at this point

02:32:05.520 --> 02:32:09.997
we probably should just move to humanoid
robotics and just have them remotely

02:32:10.080 --> 02:32:13.437
controlled by people. Like by I will say
by the way we're going to have remotely

02:32:13.520 --> 02:32:15.357
controlled Navy Seal robots long before

02:32:15.440 --> 02:32:18.237
you have you know the AI controlled

02:32:18.320 --> 02:32:21.197
robot. Uh but I've recently seen some

02:32:21.280 --> 02:32:23.037
technology that has me questioning that.

02:32:23.120 --> 02:32:25.277
Uh, I I I think that we're going to

02:32:25.360 --> 02:32:28.397
start seeing this tech in kind of tier

02:32:28.480 --> 02:32:32.157
one groups like just about now, like

02:32:32.240 --> 02:32:36.477
less than a year would be my would be
my would be my estimation. Uh, when when

02:32:36.560 --> 02:32:38.157
does it get out? >> Controlled robot.

02:32:38.240 --> 02:32:40.157
>> Uh, sorry, no, exoskeletons.

02:32:40.240 --> 02:32:43.917
Exoskeletons. Now, they're going to be
a little less cool than people expect.

02:32:44.000 --> 02:32:48.317
It's not going to be like an Iron Man
suit. It's more like a suit that maybe

02:32:48.400 --> 02:32:52.717
helps one or two of your joints. Like
that helps you run better, maybe to run

02:32:52.800 --> 02:32:57.197
faster or maybe just to use less uh so
that you can run longer. Like I mean,

02:32:57.280 --> 02:32:59.677
I'm sure you were in situations where
would you have liked it to have been

02:32:59.760 --> 02:33:03.117
able to like go take a jog carrying
a whole bunch of stuff to a place a

02:33:03.200 --> 02:33:06.637
kilometer away and then get
there and not be tired. Like

02:33:06.720 --> 02:33:08.557
>> that'd be a huge deal.
I think those are

02:33:08.640 --> 02:33:11.357
going to be the types of exoskeletons we
see. It's not going to be like I put on

02:33:11.440 --> 02:33:15.757
my Iron Man suit and I'm carrying 300
lb of vibranium armor and the bullets are

02:33:15.840 --> 02:33:19.357
blasting off me. I think it's going
to be more like, hey, you can like you can

02:33:19.440 --> 02:33:23.757
run up a whole flight of stairs to the
top of a 10story building because all

02:33:23.840 --> 02:33:27.037
the power's cut and there's no elevators
and you're going to step out on the on

02:33:27.120 --> 02:33:29.997
that last landing. You'll be like,
"Oh yeah, that was that was that was a

02:33:30.080 --> 02:33:32.637
little that was a little tough."
As opposed to feeling like you want to

02:33:32.720 --> 02:33:36.077
collapse. And that's a huge deal.

02:33:36.160 --> 02:33:39.197
Eventually, I do think we will see
the thing that everybody wants, which is,

02:33:39.280 --> 02:33:42.797
you know, you put you put on the suit
and you're Superman and you punch

02:33:42.880 --> 02:33:47.757
through walls and the bullets are coming
at you and and nothing happens. I It's

02:33:47.840 --> 02:33:51.037
going to It's going to be a decade plus
before that happens. One of the problems

02:33:51.120 --> 02:33:55.677
being any suit that can do that can also
kill you. Just think about it this way.

02:33:55.760 --> 02:33:57.757
Like a suit that basically helps out

02:33:57.840 --> 02:34:02.797
your legs, it's only as powerful as your
legs are on average, you know, climbing

02:34:02.880 --> 02:34:06.637
up some stairs. So, like if it
malfunctions, like you might hurt

02:34:06.720 --> 02:34:10.637
yourself, but you'll be okay. If you are
building a suit that is capable of, you

02:34:10.720 --> 02:34:13.837
know, doing Iron Man style, like I'm
going to punch through this building and

02:34:13.920 --> 02:34:17.597
walk through the brick wall opening,
that's a suit where if it malfunctions,

02:34:17.680 --> 02:34:23.197
it could rip your arms out of their
joints. And you really need to be you

02:34:23.280 --> 02:34:25.677
really need to be careful when you're
building something like that. It's not

02:34:25.760 --> 02:34:29.997
the type of thing that you build over
a weekend. I mentioned earlier like I'm

02:34:30.080 --> 02:34:34.717
modifying this exoskeleton tonight so
that I can run faster. Uh that's not the

02:34:34.800 --> 02:34:38.077
type of thing you do with an exoskeleton
that is able to rip your limbs off. You

02:34:38.160 --> 02:34:41.517
know, it's it is a it is a very
different development process. So it's

02:34:41.600 --> 02:34:43.357
not it's more like a medical device and

02:34:43.440 --> 02:34:46.637
less like a little little contradiction.

02:34:46.720 --> 02:34:50.797
Maybe you had mentioned first we were
saying no, we're not going to see remote

02:34:50.880 --> 02:34:53.197
controlled or robots.

02:34:53.280 --> 02:34:56.957
>> Yep. Now you're saying we might see

02:34:57.040 --> 02:35:01.037
before the exoskeleton.
>> I guess uh before you had asked uh like

02:35:01.120 --> 02:35:05.677
you had asked about um you asked about
like AI Navy Seals or robot Navy Seals.

02:35:05.760 --> 02:35:09.997
I have to I I missed in my mind there
is going to be an intermediary step which

02:35:10.080 --> 02:35:14.957
is like you're not you'll have robot
bodies that are piloted by people. So

02:35:15.040 --> 02:35:19.117
they're still using you know human
judgment just and like that's going to

02:35:19.200 --> 02:35:22.877
happen a lot sooner than you know
the the AI robot Navy Seal that is. How do

02:35:22.960 --> 02:35:25.277
you see that working?
>> Um, >> is it going to be

02:35:25.360 --> 02:35:26.717
>> you're going to put on a VR headset.

02:35:26.800 --> 02:35:27.997
You're going to put on a VR headset.

02:35:28.080 --> 02:35:30.957
You're going to strap on a suit that does
full motion capture of your entire

02:35:31.040 --> 02:35:35.117
body and you will be like, it's probably
going to handle the leg logo motion

02:35:35.200 --> 02:35:38.557
because that's something you can't
really remotely do very well. It's going

02:35:38.640 --> 02:35:42.237
to have to use local sensors to scan
the terrain and do a better job than you'd

02:35:42.320 --> 02:35:46.797
be able to see anyway. So imagine like
downward shooting LARs, building a 3D

02:35:46.880 --> 02:35:50.157
model of all the terrain that's within
10 ft of you, so you know what to step

02:35:50.240 --> 02:35:55.597
over, what you could trip on, you know
what you need to avoid. Um, and then

02:35:55.680 --> 02:35:58.557
everything on the top, you've got
a guy who's just teleoperating the whole

02:35:58.640 --> 02:36:02.397
thing. And you know, >> Oh [__]
So this will be So they'll be

02:36:02.480 --> 02:36:05.597
controlling these from a
totally separate location.

02:36:05.680 --> 02:36:07.757
>> Yeah. I mean, I'm like, and so

02:36:07.840 --> 02:36:10.717
casualties be essentially zero human

02:36:10.800 --> 02:36:14.797
casualties if it's a if I will admit
like there are there are problems with

02:36:14.880 --> 02:36:18.877
this. Like the reason you want to move
to an AI brain eventually is largely

02:36:18.960 --> 02:36:23.037
because of communications links problems.
Like if I if I have a command

02:36:23.120 --> 02:36:26.877
center that has to talk to a robot, that
means that all they have to do to make

02:36:26.960 --> 02:36:31.277
this robot stop working is jam that link.
If they jam the link, the robot is

02:36:31.360 --> 02:36:33.597
like all of those battle droids in Star

02:36:33.680 --> 02:36:35.437
Wars Episode 1. They just fall over and

02:36:35.520 --> 02:36:39.597
they're useless. Um, so but for missions

02:36:39.680 --> 02:36:43.037
where that's okay. Maybe like maybe we
have links that can't be jammed by that

02:36:43.120 --> 02:36:47.997
enemy. Maybe it's short range enough
that we can just power through. Uh,

02:36:48.080 --> 02:36:51.037
yeah, that's that that's going to be
a thing soon. Actually, have you seen the

02:36:51.120 --> 02:36:53.997
you've seen the Tesla humanoid
robot demos, right, with Optimus?

02:36:54.080 --> 02:36:57.117
>> Yeah. >> So,
most of those demos I I I hate to

02:36:57.200 --> 02:37:00.557
I'm not trying to I'm not trying to piss
off Elon. Sorry, Elon. I'm going to I'm

02:37:00.640 --> 02:37:03.917
going to let people know. All [snorts]
those demos with the robots pouring

02:37:04.000 --> 02:37:06.397
drinks for people and being robot
bartenders, those are all actually

02:37:06.480 --> 02:37:09.597
teleoperated. It's not an AI brain
that's doing all of that. There's a

02:37:09.680 --> 02:37:12.877
there's a guy who's doing what I just
described, wearing a VR headset, wearing

02:37:12.960 --> 02:37:15.837
a motion capture suit, and he's pouring

02:37:15.920 --> 02:37:20.797
drinks for people, walking around, doing
all kinds of stuff. And uh yeah, that

02:37:20.880 --> 02:37:23.357
that that is definitely going to be
a thing that our military is doing a lot

02:37:23.440 --> 02:37:24.957
of in just the next few years.

02:37:25.040 --> 02:37:28.077
>> Holy [__] >> If not
at the level of a Navy Seal.

02:37:28.160 --> 02:37:30.397
>> Wow. >> If not the level
Navy Seal. But like uh

02:37:30.480 --> 02:37:34.237
if you if you need to serve drinks,
you know, like that's that that's that's

02:37:34.320 --> 02:37:37.837
going to be happening soon. >> Wow.

02:37:37.920 --> 02:37:41.837
Damn, dude. Let's talk about >> I
got to throw out one more thing, which

02:37:41.920 --> 02:37:44.317
is uh I I write a little bit of

02:37:44.400 --> 02:37:46.717
speculative sci-fi from time to time.

02:37:46.800 --> 02:37:49.597
Um, I don't publish it just for my own

02:37:49.680 --> 02:37:52.717
my own notekeeping and entertainment,

02:37:52.800 --> 02:37:56.397
but I did write a bit a bit uh years and

02:37:56.480 --> 02:37:59.917
years ago about um a tier one operator

02:38:00.000 --> 02:38:02.877
who basically uses robotics to continue

02:38:02.960 --> 02:38:05.517
operating even into his 70s and 80s.

02:38:05.600 --> 02:38:09.757
Yeah. Being like he's got a broken body,
but you know, he's still he's still the

02:38:09.840 --> 02:38:13.517
sharpest the sharpest tool in the shed
when it comes to his his instincts and

02:38:13.600 --> 02:38:17.917
his knowledge and his ability to get
stuff done. And it's [snorts] really

02:38:18.000 --> 02:38:21.197
interesting to imagine how that might
actually work in the future. Cuz if

02:38:21.280 --> 02:38:24.717
you've got a guy who's really good
at remote controlling robots, it doesn't

02:38:24.800 --> 02:38:28.557
really matter if he gets,
you know, if he's getting older and

02:38:28.640 --> 02:38:33.037
>> older and uh older and breaking down,
at least not as much. So, as long as your

02:38:33.120 --> 02:38:38.440
brain's there, I think you I
think people will still be useful,

02:38:39.440 --> 02:38:42.717
>> man. This is this is >>
it's going to be a wild future.

02:38:42.800 --> 02:38:47.277
>> Yeah. No [laughter]
[__] [clears throat] Um,

02:38:47.360 --> 02:38:49.357
wow. Let's talk about the missiles.

02:38:49.440 --> 02:38:51.437
Let's talk about it. What how does how

02:38:51.520 --> 02:38:53.517
do those work? So the so the way I

02:38:53.600 --> 02:39:00.040
understand it, you can
you're basically taking away

02:39:01.200 --> 02:39:04.157
missiles that don't need
to expend, come back and land.

02:39:04.240 --> 02:39:05.917
>> So there's a few things that we're
doing. You're probably thinking of

02:39:06.000 --> 02:39:10.077
Roadrunner, which is a reusable missile
of sorts, vertical takeoff and landing.

02:39:10.160 --> 02:39:13.677
It can go out, attack targets, and come
back. And we have some versions that are

02:39:13.760 --> 02:39:17.357
suicide attack aircraft. We have other
like where they're carrying a bomb. We

02:39:17.440 --> 02:39:20.157
have others where they have payloads
where they can go out, do a mission, and

02:39:20.240 --> 02:39:22.637
then come back and be re be reused again.

02:39:22.720 --> 02:39:25.997
>> Um, we're doing uh we're doing a lot of

02:39:26.080 --> 02:39:31.357
interesting stuff on that front,
I think, because in the past a lot of like

02:39:31.440 --> 02:39:33.837
we're we're also building longrange
cruise missiles. We have a line of

02:39:33.920 --> 02:39:37.837
missiles called Barracuda. We have
a Barracuda 100, 250, and 500, different

02:39:37.920 --> 02:39:41.757
ranges, different payloads. And one
of the cool things you can do with AI

02:39:41.840 --> 02:39:46.477
powered missiles is send them
into an area and then have

02:39:46.560 --> 02:39:49.277
them do precision targeting
collaborating with each other. Even if

02:39:49.360 --> 02:39:52.557
you don't have a person there who's
let's say steering a coded laser target

02:39:52.640 --> 02:39:55.597
designator. Like in the past you would
have needed somebody to say like get get

02:39:55.680 --> 02:39:58.637
out there shine a laser at the thing
you wanted to go after and then it goes

02:39:58.720 --> 02:40:01.597
after that laser dot. Well, what if
instead you can have a missile show up

02:40:01.680 --> 02:40:06.397
somewhere and say oh that's a Lee Yang
destroyer. I know that the engine room

02:40:06.480 --> 02:40:09.517
is right there. And I know that the
thinnest part of the deck is right

02:40:09.600 --> 02:40:13.437
there. If I approach at this angle
and this speed from this direction, I can

02:40:13.520 --> 02:40:16.477
punch through the engine room
and destroy engine one. And if that's

02:40:16.560 --> 02:40:19.517
successful, another one's going to come
in behind me from the other side and

02:40:19.600 --> 02:40:23.277
destroy engine two. If I miss or I don't
make it through, I'm going to have it

02:40:23.360 --> 02:40:27.357
instead go for engine one. And then the
next one's going to go. That's the type

02:40:27.440 --> 02:40:31.757
of intelligent targeting that has been
the stuff of science fiction until now.

02:40:31.840 --> 02:40:35.837
And now we just do it. uh like we're
doing this type of stuff in Russia right

02:40:35.920 --> 02:40:39.357
now where we're hitting targets where
they have jammed communications link

02:40:39.440 --> 02:40:43.197
that would make it impossible to remote
control systems and where it's at ranges

02:40:43.280 --> 02:40:47.357
where you can't get a person into these
areas like you can't get a J-TAC forward

02:40:47.440 --> 02:40:50.637
to las these Russian targets. They they
would they'd mow you down with machine

02:40:50.720 --> 02:40:53.757
guns or landmines before
you get even close.

02:40:53.840 --> 02:40:56.557
The other side of what we're doing
with missiles and it's it's it's less

02:40:56.640 --> 02:41:00.397
interesting than the AI stuff,
I know, but it's just manufacturing.

02:41:00.480 --> 02:41:02.317
We are making our missiles and our

02:41:02.400 --> 02:41:05.997
submarines and really everything we do

02:41:06.080 --> 02:41:08.717
in a much more reasonable way. So like

02:41:08.800 --> 02:41:13.117
the way we make our submarines looks
a lot like you make uh a car. Like we're

02:41:13.200 --> 02:41:17.597
we're basically using we're using
processes, robots, assembly lines that

02:41:17.680 --> 02:41:21.117
you could use to build a Tesla. you
can use it to build our submarine versus

02:41:21.200 --> 02:41:25.757
more traditional techniques that require
huge teams of specialized human welders

02:41:25.840 --> 02:41:29.277
and huge pieces of infrastructure that
that allow you to really really slowly

02:41:29.360 --> 02:41:33.517
build pressure vessels. Um, same thing
with our missiles. Our missiles have 90%

02:41:33.600 --> 02:41:37.997
fewer parts than our competition. We've
very aggressively designed them to have

02:41:38.080 --> 02:41:42.157
very few parts to have those parts
consolidated as much as possible into

02:41:42.240 --> 02:41:44.877
individual pressings or panels that like

02:41:44.960 --> 02:41:49.757
we might have one part that is 10 times
as big as the parts that you would have

02:41:49.840 --> 02:41:53.357
in a competing system and it does all
of these different things. And the reason

02:41:53.440 --> 02:41:57.357
that's important is because right now in
US war games we're predicting that we'll

02:41:57.440 --> 02:41:59.917
run out like US war games against a

02:42:00.000 --> 02:42:04.397
hypothetical Chinese Chinese invasion
scenario in Taiwan. We run out of

02:42:04.480 --> 02:42:06.557
missiles in less than eight days. Like

02:42:06.640 --> 02:42:09.117
we have eight days and then we are we're

02:42:09.200 --> 02:42:12.157
completely out.

02:42:12.240 --> 02:42:15.917
So 8 days of pain for China doesn't mean

02:42:16.000 --> 02:42:20.397
very much to a country that thinks
in 100year timelines. They're like that's

02:42:20.480 --> 02:42:24.477
it? Like there will be 8 days of pain
and then it will take the United States

02:42:24.560 --> 02:42:26.957
literally years to rebuild that arsenal.

02:42:27.040 --> 02:42:28.797
Oh [__] Well, we could just go win.

02:42:28.880 --> 02:42:33.357
Let's just go do it. Like like like just
put the cannon fodder out there. soak up

02:42:33.440 --> 02:42:36.877
the missiles and then we win because
we have years to operate with impunity

02:42:36.960 --> 02:42:40.237
until they get their [__] together.
We have to fix this as a country. We have

02:42:40.320 --> 02:42:44.157
to get back to where things are actually
manufacturable. As a country, we've

02:42:44.240 --> 02:42:48.717
slipped into this problem where we
build so few arms that we build really

02:42:48.800 --> 02:42:52.797
expensive, really exquisite things that
take years to complete. We need to get

02:42:52.880 --> 02:42:56.157
back into more of a World War II
mentality where we can build weapons

02:42:56.240 --> 02:42:58.237
faster than we can use them. Because now

02:42:58.320 --> 02:43:01.357
China has to think about day 8, day 80,

02:43:01.440 --> 02:43:05.437
day 800, day 8,000. That's how you're
going to deter them. They need to look

02:43:05.520 --> 02:43:10.157
and see that you are a continuously
present adversary. That there is a

02:43:10.240 --> 02:43:15.117
credible threat of violence that extends
beyond the weekend. Uh that that's the

02:43:15.200 --> 02:43:18.637
only way we're going to keep them from
running rough shot over everybody. And

02:43:18.720 --> 02:43:22.957
this may be more political, but I'll say
it anyway. Taiwan is not the end state

02:43:23.040 --> 02:43:27.517
for China. And all the people who think
that this fight over Taiwan is the real

02:43:27.600 --> 02:43:31.597
fight are missing the point.
They believe that the Philippines is their

02:43:31.680 --> 02:43:35.757
territory. They believe that Korea
is their territory. They also believe that

02:43:35.840 --> 02:43:39.197
North Korea is their territory, but they
like them as a buffer state with South

02:43:39.280 --> 02:43:43.277
Korea. But that would change the moment
they could actually capture South Korea.

02:43:43.360 --> 02:43:46.957
And they even think that most of Japan
belongs to them. They think that it's

02:43:47.040 --> 02:43:49.197
theirs. They they've tried over and over

02:43:49.280 --> 02:43:51.917
for thousands of years and even today

02:43:52.000 --> 02:43:54.557
like even publicly they won't say they

02:43:54.640 --> 02:43:59.037
own all of Japan but they do maintain
they own part of Japan like like no no

02:43:59.120 --> 02:44:03.837
maybe we don't own all of it but but
like that part that's definitely ours.

02:44:03.920 --> 02:44:05.837
It is really dangerous to let people

02:44:05.920 --> 02:44:09.677
with millennial long ambitions of ruling

02:44:09.760 --> 02:44:13.917
those areas go unchecked because like
like even if you don't give a [__] about

02:44:14.000 --> 02:44:16.957
Taiwan, which you should because our
whole modern economy runs on chips from

02:44:17.040 --> 02:44:20.637
them and until we figure out how to make
them better or as good ourselves, like

02:44:20.720 --> 02:44:24.717
we have to keep them around. Like even
if you don't give a [__] about Taiwan,

02:44:24.800 --> 02:44:26.557
there's a lot of reasons to make sure

02:44:26.640 --> 02:44:29.997
we're spooking China on day 80, day 800.

02:44:30.080 --> 02:44:33.277
>> Wow. So, I I people like talking about

02:44:33.360 --> 02:44:37.197
the AI part of the missiles, but honestly,
if our missiles had no AI and

02:44:37.280 --> 02:44:41.037
we're just able to make them 10 times
faster, that's pretty good all on its

02:44:41.120 --> 02:44:43.437
own, even if we were doing nothing else.

02:44:43.520 --> 02:44:46.797
>> Jeez. Do any of Do any of our
adversaries have this type of technology

02:44:46.880 --> 02:44:51.917
that you're developing? >> China
definitely has the technology in

02:44:52.000 --> 02:44:54.957
terms of manufacturing process. They
know how to make stuff fast. They know

02:44:55.040 --> 02:44:58.237
how to make it cheap. They have
automated cruise missile production

02:44:58.320 --> 02:45:01.357
facilities that are capable of turning
out more cruise missiles in a week than

02:45:01.440 --> 02:45:05.757
the entire United States turns
out in a year. I mean like is

02:45:05.840 --> 02:45:09.277
do you know do you know the multiple
for Chinese ship building capacity? So so

02:45:09.360 --> 02:45:12.957
China China has more ship building
capacity than us. They can build ships a

02:45:13.040 --> 02:45:16.397
lot faster than us. If if we start
blowing up boats in the Pacific, they're

02:45:16.480 --> 02:45:19.997
going to be able to build more. What how
much more ship building capacity do you

02:45:20.080 --> 02:45:23.357
think they have? How much more? Five
time you think it's five times more? You

02:45:23.440 --> 02:45:26.317
think it's 100 times more? What do
you think it I honestly have no idea.

02:45:26.400 --> 02:45:28.237
>> Make a crazy guess.

02:45:28.320 --> 02:45:33.357
>> 20 times. >> It's 350 times.
They have 350 times more

02:45:33.440 --> 02:45:35.837
ship building capacity
in the United States.

02:45:35.920 --> 02:45:39.037
>> An equivalent ship. >> So, no,
it's so it's worse. People will

02:45:39.120 --> 02:45:42.237
try to argue with me that and sometimes
they'll say, "But Palmer, all of that is

02:45:42.320 --> 02:45:46.477
commercial ship building capacity."
So, it's unfair to compare, you know, uh,

02:45:46.560 --> 02:45:49.517
all of China with all of the United
States because you're counting all of

02:45:49.600 --> 02:45:53.117
China's commercial shipping. But,
you know why it's fair? Because in China,

02:45:53.200 --> 02:45:57.437
the law says that all commercial vessels
have to meet military standards. If you

02:45:57.520 --> 02:46:01.997
are building a roll-on rolloff passenger
ferry for transporting people and cars,

02:46:02.080 --> 02:46:06.237
you have to have deck plate supports
that are strong enough to transport

02:46:06.320 --> 02:46:08.237
tanks and armored vehicles on. They're

02:46:08.320 --> 02:46:11.917
requiring even their civilian vessels to

02:46:12.000 --> 02:46:15.997
all be military standards compliant
because they foresee a world where

02:46:16.080 --> 02:46:19.837
they're going to nationalize their
entire domestic fleet and use it in a

02:46:19.920 --> 02:46:22.957
whole of China fight against the West.

02:46:23.040 --> 02:46:26.317
And it's funny cuz people like, oh well
they're just doing that just in case.

02:46:26.400 --> 02:46:28.877
Just in case it's not just in case.

02:46:28.960 --> 02:46:31.917
China understands how much more it costs

02:46:32.000 --> 02:46:34.157
for every single ferry to support

02:46:34.240 --> 02:46:36.637
military operations. They are taking

02:46:36.720 --> 02:46:39.117
that cost on because they expect to do

02:46:39.200 --> 02:46:43.757
it. They're not going to basically spend
billions of dollars for absolutely no

02:46:43.840 --> 02:46:47.757
reason in an economy that knows how to cut
corners like no other. Like they are

02:46:47.840 --> 02:46:51.437
doing this cuz they they believe it's
a core part of their strategy. So yes,

02:46:51.520 --> 02:46:53.437
when they're not quite equivalent like I

02:46:53.520 --> 02:46:58.717
would say US ship like ship for ship,
our ships are better. But quantity has a

02:46:58.800 --> 02:47:02.237
quality all on its own.
And when you're talking about a 350x

02:47:02.320 --> 02:47:04.957
difference, people will say, "Oh, well,
the Chinese Navy is only twice the size

02:47:05.040 --> 02:47:07.517
of our Navy." Well, yeah, today, but on

02:47:07.600 --> 02:47:12.317
day 10, they're going to be probably
a lot bigger, and then every day we're

02:47:12.400 --> 02:47:15.677
going to crank like we're going to crank
out a ship a month, and they're going to

02:47:15.760 --> 02:47:19.277
put out 350 ships a month. Like,
you could see where this just becomes an

02:47:19.360 --> 02:47:20.877
impossible problem for the United

02:47:20.960 --> 02:47:23.837
States. And so what really happens is we

02:47:23.920 --> 02:47:26.957
become an ally that is unreliable, that

02:47:27.040 --> 02:47:28.877
says we're there for our allies, but

02:47:28.960 --> 02:47:34.077
only in the way that people say they
stand for things, right? Like it's very

02:47:34.160 --> 02:47:37.597
easy for us to say, "Oh, of course we
stand with Japan." Okay, well, what's

02:47:37.680 --> 02:47:40.317
that going to mean? When every single
one of our ships is at the bottom of the

02:47:40.400 --> 02:47:43.757
ocean and we have one new ship coming
off the line a month, it's a meaningless

02:47:43.840 --> 02:47:47.277
promise. And so our adversaries see that

02:47:47.360 --> 02:47:51.197
and a lot of them are going to our
allies and China is saying, "Hey, you

02:47:51.280 --> 02:47:55.517
know the math. You can do the math.
You need to end up in the cyinosphere and

02:47:55.600 --> 02:47:59.197
like and the US can say they love you
all they want. Reality is they can't

02:47:59.280 --> 02:48:01.437
back up. They can't cash those checks."

02:48:01.520 --> 02:48:05.277
And so uh my my belief is uh that the
United States should stop being the

02:48:05.360 --> 02:48:09.197
world police. We need to stop sending
our people all over the world to fight

02:48:09.280 --> 02:48:13.117
everyone's wars for them. And we need to
become the world's gun store. We need to

02:48:13.200 --> 02:48:16.717
just sell them the guns that they need
to defend themselves and we need to make

02:48:16.800 --> 02:48:20.237
sure that we actually keep those shelves
stocked because if like look at what's

02:48:20.320 --> 02:48:24.237
happening in Ukraine. We're not sending
them more stuff partly for you know

02:48:24.320 --> 02:48:28.397
various partisan political reasons and
strategic reasons but we're also out of

02:48:28.480 --> 02:48:30.957
stuff to send to them. Like we we're out

02:48:31.040 --> 02:48:35.517
of artillery shells that we can spare
to Ukraine. We're out of a lot of like we

02:48:35.600 --> 02:48:36.877
don't have any Javelins to send to

02:48:36.960 --> 02:48:39.597
Ukraine. We're all out. And so, how

02:48:39.680 --> 02:48:43.917
could our allies stay allied with us
if they think that they're going to get

02:48:44.000 --> 02:48:47.357
into a conflict and we're just say, "Oh,
sorry. Actually, we forgot how to make

02:48:47.440 --> 02:48:51.597
things." Uh, we forgot like
a hundred years ago. Sorry.

02:48:51.680 --> 02:48:55.437
>> Jeez. Do they have
any of the technology?

02:48:55.520 --> 02:48:59.917
>> So, manufacturing wise, which I
just talked about, they're ahead of us.

02:49:00.000 --> 02:49:03.517
You're talking about like AI,
the sensors, do they have that? Luckily,

02:49:03.600 --> 02:49:07.437
we're ahead on that. like the United
States is ahead of China on a lot of

02:49:07.520 --> 02:49:11.277
this advanced sensing technology
on a lot of advanced AI. Now, China like

02:49:11.360 --> 02:49:13.917
don't underestimate them. You know,
we've seen like with Deep Seek and

02:49:14.000 --> 02:49:17.357
stuff, they're doing very interesting
things in the AI realm. I don't think

02:49:17.440 --> 02:49:18.957
that we're like a decade ahead of them

02:49:19.040 --> 02:49:21.517
in technology. We have what I'm doing at

02:49:21.600 --> 02:49:24.717
Andreal is ahead of what China is doing

02:49:24.800 --> 02:49:28.077
in most ways by a few years, but that's

02:49:28.160 --> 02:49:31.917
it. I'm a few years ahead of them.

02:49:32.000 --> 02:49:35.517
I hate to admit this, but I was part
of the problem for a long time. I made

02:49:35.600 --> 02:49:39.677
millions of virtual reality headsets in
China. That's where we made Oculus Rift.

02:49:39.760 --> 02:49:41.917
That's where we made Gear VR. That's

02:49:42.000 --> 02:49:47.357
where we made Oculus Quest. Millions and
millions of those things. And I know how

02:49:47.440 --> 02:49:50.637
good they are, not just
at manufacturing, but at the actual

02:49:50.720 --> 02:49:54.157
technology development side.
They understood exactly what what we were

02:49:54.240 --> 02:49:56.077
doing. They knew how we were doing it.

02:49:56.160 --> 02:49:59.037
They were able to rip it off. They were
able to do it with their own domestic

02:49:59.120 --> 02:50:03.277
companies. when we were developing
cutting edge technology, we were never

02:50:03.360 --> 02:50:05.757
more than a few months ahead of China.

02:50:05.840 --> 02:50:10.077
Like anything that we figured out, they
would be able to copy it and figure it

02:50:10.160 --> 02:50:13.997
out very quickly. Now, I I think they
don't have a culture that's particularly

02:50:14.080 --> 02:50:16.157
good at leaping beyond what we're doing.

02:50:16.240 --> 02:50:19.437
But you don't have to leap beyond what
we're doing to be a threat to us. If

02:50:19.520 --> 02:50:21.837
they're really good at manufacturing

02:50:21.920 --> 02:50:24.477
and they have way more people

02:50:24.560 --> 02:50:26.637
and they have tech that is about as good

02:50:26.720 --> 02:50:29.997
as ours, that's all you need to win.

02:50:30.080 --> 02:50:33.997
Yeah. I mean, it's my understanding,
isn't it Chinese law that any anything

02:50:34.080 --> 02:50:38.157
that gets developed in that in that
country that could help their military

02:50:38.240 --> 02:50:40.157
has to be That's right. has to be shared.

02:50:40.240 --> 02:50:43.437
>> So, you're you're you're you're
talking about a particular provision of a

02:50:43.520 --> 02:50:45.437
policy, a legal policy that they call

02:50:45.520 --> 02:50:48.637
civil military fusion. Uh, anything that

02:50:48.720 --> 02:50:53.517
is civilian is inherently military
as well. And if the military wants to use

02:50:53.600 --> 02:50:57.517
it, they have all rights to it.
You cannot deny it to them. You you cannot

02:50:57.600 --> 02:51:01.277
tell them no. you cannot refuse to sell
it to them. They they are basically

02:51:01.360 --> 02:51:05.277
saying the military apparatus and the
civilian apparatus are one and the same

02:51:05.360 --> 02:51:07.597
and you may you cannot operate within

02:51:07.680 --> 02:51:09.837
the Chinese social contract unless you

02:51:09.920 --> 02:51:12.397
equally support both. I'm actually glad

02:51:12.480 --> 02:51:15.677
that the United States has given

02:51:15.760 --> 02:51:19.517
companies the freedom like like I'm you
know I'm I'm a libertarian leaning guy.

02:51:19.600 --> 02:51:23.037
I think it is good when you have the right
to self-determination. If I decide

02:51:23.120 --> 02:51:27.437
that I want to be a pacifist and never
sell a single thing to the United States

02:51:27.520 --> 02:51:31.037
military, I should absolutely have that
right. I think that people should morate

02:51:31.120 --> 02:51:34.477
me for it. I think that's the wrong
opinion. But isn't it good that you're

02:51:34.560 --> 02:51:38.637
allowed to make that decision that the
state can't come and say you have to

02:51:38.720 --> 02:51:42.717
work for me if I want you to that I
I'm glad about that. But we have to

02:51:42.800 --> 02:51:47.677
recognize that there are disadvantages
to that. One disadvantage has been the

02:51:47.760 --> 02:51:51.917
way that the United States technology
industry has treated the United States

02:51:52.000 --> 02:51:55.997
of America for the last 20 years.
I mean, I I know it sounds crazy today

02:51:56.080 --> 02:52:00.397
when you have Mark Zuckerberg begging
Congress to ban Tik Tok and you have all

02:52:00.480 --> 02:52:03.517
these tech companies saying that China
is a huge threat to them. But let's get

02:52:03.600 --> 02:52:04.957
in the time machine for a second. Let's

02:52:05.040 --> 02:52:08.797
travel back 10 years to 2015. What was

02:52:08.880 --> 02:52:13.197
going on in 2015? Google was trying
to get into China. Facebook was trying to

02:52:13.280 --> 02:52:17.517
get into China. Microsoft was trying
to get into China. China had convinced all

02:52:17.600 --> 02:52:21.437
of these companies and more, Apple 2,
that they were ascending to be the

02:52:21.520 --> 02:52:24.877
world's dominant economic superpower,
that they were going to surpass the US

02:52:24.960 --> 02:52:27.597
in short order, and that these companies

02:52:27.680 --> 02:52:32.077
could make trillions of dollars
by working with China the way China wanted

02:52:32.160 --> 02:52:34.557
them to work. So making, for example,
your have you heard about Project

02:52:34.640 --> 02:52:39.277
Dragonfly? That was Google's project to
make a censored version of Google search

02:52:39.360 --> 02:52:41.037
engine for the Chinese market that would

02:52:41.120 --> 02:52:42.877
appease the Chinese authorities. It was

02:52:42.960 --> 02:52:46.317
used to censor search results and also

02:52:46.400 --> 02:52:50.397
collect and report on information
on any dissident to pipeline that to the

02:52:50.480 --> 02:52:53.757
Chinese government. So anyone who would
be using it to try and search for things

02:52:53.840 --> 02:52:56.957
they shouldn't, it was going to alert
the Chinese authorities and tell them

02:52:57.040 --> 02:52:58.957
how to find them.

02:52:59.040 --> 02:53:02.077
You basically had for a period of about

02:53:02.160 --> 02:53:06.397
a decade a total abdication
of responsibility on the part of our tech

02:53:06.480 --> 02:53:10.717
companies to do anything for the United
States. They were all refusing to work

02:53:10.800 --> 02:53:14.877
with our military. protesting our
military. Google famously pulled out of

02:53:14.960 --> 02:53:17.997
the Project Maven contract because their
employees were angry about it. That was

02:53:18.080 --> 02:53:22.077
a project to use Google's AI to do
better targeting that would better avoid

02:53:22.160 --> 02:53:25.837
civilian casualties. And their employees
protested and they gave in. The

02:53:25.920 --> 02:53:27.517
executive says, "Okay, we won't do it.

02:53:27.600 --> 02:53:31.357
We're going to pull out of working with
the military." Actually, YouTube banned

02:53:31.440 --> 02:53:35.277
the Anderal YouTube account about 2
years into our company. They banned it.

02:53:35.360 --> 02:53:38.157
They said that our company promoted harm

02:53:38.240 --> 02:53:41.197
of people. We said, "Guys, like that's

02:53:41.280 --> 02:53:45.437
what war is like it's it's either it's
either threatening you're going to harm

02:53:45.520 --> 02:53:49.197
somebody or actually doing it like
that that that's the whole game." And they

02:53:49.280 --> 02:53:53.677
said, "Sorry, uh this is this is this
is not allowed under our threat of harm

02:53:53.760 --> 02:53:55.757
policy." And uh they didn't actually

02:53:55.840 --> 02:53:59.917
unban us until years later when they uh

02:54:00.000 --> 02:54:03.197
in the midst of this new re alignment of

02:54:03.280 --> 02:54:07.517
tech with our military and in our
government uh when they launched the new

02:54:07.600 --> 02:54:10.317
Google Federal team doing government
work and they realized they needed to

02:54:10.400 --> 02:54:11.997
integrate with something that we made.

02:54:12.080 --> 02:54:14.717
And I told them, "Guys, I'm not
integrating with Google Federal until

02:54:14.800 --> 02:54:18.477
you unban our YouTube account." Like
like I'm not that cucked, right? Could

02:54:18.560 --> 02:54:22.157
you imagine what a cuck I'd be to to like
let them integrate with our weapon

02:54:22.240 --> 02:54:25.277
systems even though they literally
banned me from the largest video

02:54:25.360 --> 02:54:27.437
platform and deplatformed me from the

02:54:27.520 --> 02:54:29.997
largest video platform in the world

02:54:30.080 --> 02:54:33.117
because some shitty pencil pushing

02:54:33.200 --> 02:54:37.117
blue-haired person in San Francisco
doesn't like my politics or my company.

02:54:37.200 --> 02:54:38.957
And to their credit, they did unban us.

02:54:39.040 --> 02:54:42.557
We've been unbanned for years. So like
good for Google. The point I'm trying to

02:54:42.640 --> 02:54:45.997
make is people are coming back around
and they're starting to say they're

02:54:46.080 --> 02:54:49.117
going to work with the military. Google
is saying that, Meta is saying that,

02:54:49.200 --> 02:54:54.477
Microsoft is saying that. Apple is not
saying that. Pay attention to that. But

02:54:54.560 --> 02:54:58.077
there was this period of time where we
ran a very dangerous experiment which

02:54:58.160 --> 02:55:01.197
was decoupling our most innovative, most

02:55:01.280 --> 02:55:05.837
valuable companies from the military
entirely. And that's an experiment we've

02:55:05.920 --> 02:55:09.117
never run as a country. Has there ever
been a time where our most innovative

02:55:09.200 --> 02:55:11.757
companies didn't work with the US
military? Could you imagine how World

02:55:11.840 --> 02:55:15.597
War II would have gone if could you
could you imagine if General Motors and

02:55:15.680 --> 02:55:19.517
IBM and General Electric had said,
"Well, we're not going to work with you.

02:55:19.600 --> 02:55:24.397
We we we think that's we think that's
wrong. In fact, we're going to work with

02:55:24.480 --> 02:55:28.317
Imperial Japan because we think that's
a huge revenue growth opportunity for us

02:55:28.400 --> 02:55:31.997
in the future and we think manufacturing
is going to be cheaper there." That's

02:55:32.080 --> 02:55:36.477
what our big tech corporations were doing.
Imagine if during the cold war if

02:55:36.560 --> 02:55:38.797
all imagine if Zenith and RCA and

02:55:38.880 --> 02:55:42.477
Westinghouse had said you know we love

02:55:42.560 --> 02:55:46.477
America in a abstract hypothetical way

02:55:46.560 --> 02:55:49.917
but actually we're going to team up
with the Soviet Union and we're going to

02:55:50.000 --> 02:55:53.917
manufacture all of our chips there
like could you imagine what would have

02:55:54.000 --> 02:55:58.477
happened to America and so I I was when
I was in Silicon Valley this was one of

02:55:58.560 --> 02:56:02.237
the things that was rolling through
my head was oh my god I'm sitting amongst

02:56:02.320 --> 02:56:04.237
the best technologists in the and none

02:56:04.320 --> 02:56:05.997
of them care about our military. None of

02:56:06.080 --> 02:56:09.757
them care about America. And they're

02:56:09.840 --> 02:56:13.837
thrilled to work with China. I'm so glad
that China I I think China's actually

02:56:13.920 --> 02:56:19.037
made a misstep. And I'll end I'll end
this rant with this. China has made a

02:56:19.120 --> 02:56:22.077
misstep that we should take advantage of.
They tricked all of our tech

02:56:22.160 --> 02:56:25.997
companies and our media companies into
believing that China was this revenue

02:56:26.080 --> 02:56:27.997
opportunity. And so they basically

02:56:28.080 --> 02:56:33.677
caused our technology innovation economy
to decouple from our government. and our

02:56:33.760 --> 02:56:37.037
country and our national responsibilities.
What they should have

02:56:37.120 --> 02:56:41.597
done is actually given them a slice
of the Chinese pie. They should have let

02:56:41.680 --> 02:56:44.717
Google in. They should have let Facebook
in. They should have given them some

02:56:44.800 --> 02:56:48.157
money and then a little more and a
little more and a little more to keep

02:56:48.240 --> 02:56:51.117
them on the line. You know,
like basically to string them along, keep

02:56:51.200 --> 02:56:54.317
them in the communist bucket. But what

02:56:54.400 --> 02:56:59.037
they did instead was they eventually
said, "Haha, we tricked you. we're not

02:56:59.120 --> 02:57:02.717
going to allow you in and we're going to
subsidize bite dance and also bite dance

02:57:02.800 --> 02:57:05.197
is going to sell TikTok to you guys
and it's going to take over your entire

02:57:05.280 --> 02:57:09.037
social media industry and that was when
all the tech companies flipped when they

02:57:09.120 --> 02:57:13.357
realized that China was not their friend
and so I is making a tactical error he

02:57:13.440 --> 02:57:17.997
basically should have kept controlling
them by allowing them to get a few

02:57:18.080 --> 02:57:20.077
dollars here and there we should take

02:57:20.160 --> 02:57:25.037
advantage to the fullest of this mistake
that he's made and when people have

02:57:25.120 --> 02:57:29.197
asked me Palmer why why are you like
forgiving why are you forgiving Meta or

02:57:29.280 --> 02:57:33.917
Google or Microsoft or Apple. Like why
why are you letting them get away with

02:57:34.000 --> 02:57:38.637
changing their allegiance from China
to the US? My point is we need to let them

02:57:38.720 --> 02:57:42.477
get away with it. Like the whole point
should be to persuade them to do the

02:57:42.560 --> 02:57:46.237
right thing, even if it's for the wrong
reasons. And what we need to do is take

02:57:46.320 --> 02:57:50.557
advantage of this moment in time and say,
"Hell yeah, you're on our side.

02:57:50.640 --> 02:57:55.277
Let's go." And get them so integrated
that they don't really have a chance to

02:57:55.360 --> 02:57:58.877
change their mind in the future. Cuz
if we push them away and refuse to allow

02:57:58.960 --> 02:58:03.597
them to engage, they're going
to eventually divorce themselves from the

02:58:03.680 --> 02:58:07.357
US interests again. >> Wow,
that's smart. That's really smart.

02:58:07.440 --> 02:58:10.077
>> It is interesting to think
about the Apple one in particular.

02:58:10.160 --> 02:58:13.917
>> Like Tim Cook, I have nothing against
the guy personally, but like if I were

02:58:14.000 --> 02:58:15.117
him,

02:58:15.200 --> 02:58:17.917
>> I would feel a little humiliated

02:58:18.000 --> 02:58:22.477
>> that I can't say anything about China

02:58:22.560 --> 02:58:25.917
despite supposedly on paper being one of
the most powerful men in the world. like

02:58:26.000 --> 02:58:28.077
he speaks out against climate change and

02:58:28.160 --> 02:58:30.797
he speaks out in favor of diversity and

02:58:30.880 --> 02:58:35.437
he puts all this money into like ads for
Mother Earth and he and he and he tweets

02:58:35.520 --> 02:58:39.837
about how we all need to, you know,
respect the rights of black people in

02:58:39.920 --> 02:58:43.917
America and we need to solve these law
enforcement problems. So he he's he's

02:58:44.000 --> 02:58:46.637
politically engaged. Imagine what would

02:58:46.720 --> 02:58:48.797
happen if he said something like, "I

02:58:48.880 --> 02:58:51.677
believe concentration camps are bad."

02:58:51.760 --> 02:58:56.877
like China on account of the weaguer
Muslim issue would immediately lock them

02:58:56.960 --> 02:59:00.717
out of the country. Like he can't say
that. Isn't that crazy? Like the most

02:59:00.800 --> 02:59:03.437
power powerful executive in the country

02:59:03.520 --> 02:59:07.917
running our most valuable company
on account of the whims of a foreign ruler

02:59:08.000 --> 02:59:10.237
can't say things like human rights are

02:59:10.320 --> 02:59:15.037
good, concentration camps are bad.
I think you probably shouldn't lock people

02:59:15.120 --> 02:59:19.037
up for their religion. like he he could
only comment on our domestic issues

02:59:19.120 --> 02:59:22.557
because here our government says you're
allowed to say whatever you want about

02:59:22.640 --> 02:59:26.317
anything. And like I if I were him,
I'd be I'd feel a little humiliated about

02:59:26.400 --> 02:59:29.997
that. I'd be like, I'm not I'm not the big
boss man. I'm not actually powerful.

02:59:30.080 --> 02:59:34.637
I'm actually just the stoogge of the
country that makes the thing that I sell

02:59:34.720 --> 02:59:36.957
cuz they they they can't do it if he did

02:59:37.040 --> 02:59:39.597
this. Like imagine what would happen if

02:59:39.680 --> 02:59:42.797
Xi locked Apple out of China.

02:59:42.880 --> 02:59:46.797
two trillion dollars in market cap gone
just like that. Almost everything they

02:59:46.880 --> 02:59:50.317
make is made in China, made with Chinese
parts. Like that would be the end of

02:59:50.400 --> 02:59:51.837
Apple. The most valuable company in

02:59:51.920 --> 02:59:54.477
American history exists day-to-day at

02:59:54.560 --> 02:59:57.357
the whims of the dictator that runs

02:59:57.440 --> 03:00:01.597
China. Isn't Isn't Isn't that just like
an insane situation? Could you imagine

03:00:01.680 --> 03:00:04.797
if that had happened during the Cold War?
Imagine if the Kremlin could have

03:00:04.880 --> 03:00:08.957
just like put out a single legal
document that would have destroyed what

03:00:09.040 --> 03:00:12.317
was the biggest company during the Cold
War in America. What would it have been?

03:00:12.400 --> 03:00:15.357
>> Man, I have no idea. >> Would
it have been an oil company? Would

03:00:15.440 --> 03:00:18.957
it have been a manufacturing company?
I don't know. Like, pick any of them.

03:00:19.040 --> 03:00:21.277
Whether it's General Motors or Exxon

03:00:21.360 --> 03:00:24.637
Mobile or uh

03:00:24.720 --> 03:00:28.557
I don't know who else
was really big back then.

03:00:28.640 --> 03:00:31.037
What was the smoking company?
What was the smoke?

03:00:31.120 --> 03:00:32.077
>> Marble.

03:00:32.160 --> 03:00:35.197
>> Yeah. What was it? It was Marbor is

03:00:35.280 --> 03:00:39.917
owned by somebody, isn't it? Imagine
if imagine if that could have just been

03:00:40.000 --> 03:00:44.317
shut down because a dictator in Russia
is like, "Oh, I I don't like you anymore.

03:00:44.400 --> 03:00:47.997
>> I'm going to destroy you."
>> Anyway, that and and during the Cold

03:00:48.080 --> 03:00:51.917
War, we understood this at a political
level, too. Not to bring it back to

03:00:52.000 --> 03:00:54.637
Trump, but like Trump in instinctively

03:00:54.720 --> 03:00:56.397
understands this in a way that the

03:00:56.480 --> 03:00:59.117
globalist elites do not. They thought

03:00:59.200 --> 03:01:03.997
that outsourcing everything was just
a great thing. It's amazing. They're

03:01:04.080 --> 03:01:07.837
against tariffs. like why why would you
make it in the less efficient economy?

03:01:07.920 --> 03:01:11.037
Why wouldn't you make it wherever it
wants to be made according to the global

03:01:11.120 --> 03:01:15.357
interdynnamics? And the problem is they
forgot that once you can't make anything

03:01:15.440 --> 03:01:19.197
and once your companies don't make
anything, you have no leverage and

03:01:19.280 --> 03:01:23.517
you've just handed it away to everyone
else. Like Trump understands that if we

03:01:23.600 --> 03:01:25.757
don't make things in America, we're

03:01:25.840 --> 03:01:28.877
actually just everyone else's [__]

03:01:28.960 --> 03:01:31.117
And like what what's the price on that?

03:01:31.200 --> 03:01:35.117
It's easy to complain about tariffs
making cars more expensive because the

03:01:35.200 --> 03:01:37.757
parts can't come from China, but like

03:01:37.840 --> 03:01:42.637
what what value do you put on the fact
that a dictator in China could destroy

03:01:42.720 --> 03:01:47.037
our economy overnight by signing a few
pieces of paper? Like isn't isn't that a

03:01:47.120 --> 03:01:51.037
situation that we should just be like
humiliated by every day as a nation?

03:01:51.120 --> 03:01:54.797
Like, shouldn't we be wake up saying,
"Holy [__] like everything I'm enjoying

03:01:54.880 --> 03:01:57.437
is because Xi hasn't decided to screw us

03:01:57.520 --> 03:01:59.677
yet." And and and G's going to do it.

03:01:59.760 --> 03:02:03.597
Like when he people think that the first

03:02:03.680 --> 03:02:07.597
missile to fly is going to be a Chinese
ship firing at a US ship in the street

03:02:07.680 --> 03:02:09.677
of Taiwan. That's not the first missile.

03:02:09.760 --> 03:02:13.037
The first missile is going to be Xi
calling up of his buddies in the United

03:02:13.120 --> 03:02:16.877
States and saying, "The United States
government tries to fight this. I'm

03:02:16.960 --> 03:02:20.477
going to destroy your economy. I will
do it. I will do it tomorrow. I will kick

03:02:20.560 --> 03:02:23.277
all of you out. I will give away all
your special waiverss. We're going to

03:02:23.360 --> 03:02:26.317
steal all your factories. We're going
to nationalize all your workers. And then

03:02:26.400 --> 03:02:29.517
we are going to sell iPhones
to the entire world. and you will become

03:02:29.600 --> 03:02:33.677
irrelevant. Like that that is
actually what he has in his quiver.

03:02:33.760 --> 03:02:36.237
>> Geez, >> that's [__] scary.

03:02:36.320 --> 03:02:38.397
>> It's heavy stuff, right? It's and and

03:02:38.480 --> 03:02:41.277
and the worst part is that not to be a

03:02:41.360 --> 03:02:45.757
via caricature like nobody's talking
about this. Like when was the last time

03:02:45.840 --> 03:02:49.597
you you heard this, >> you know,
discussed in an open eye like

03:02:49.680 --> 03:02:53.997
and it's all obviously true. Like does
anyone dispute that Xi can just destroy

03:02:54.080 --> 03:02:58.317
Apple? I don't think anyone disputes that.
Does anyone dispute that Xi could

03:02:58.400 --> 03:03:02.877
literally destroy millions of US jobs
and trillions if not tens of trillions

03:03:02.960 --> 03:03:04.957
in market cap literally overnight with

03:03:05.040 --> 03:03:08.717
the stroke of his pen? Like

03:03:08.800 --> 03:03:12.957
I don't know. I I I I I I feel like
maybe maybe how people felt a little bit

03:03:13.040 --> 03:03:16.717
during the Cold War, you know, just
being under the the pressure of, oh man,

03:03:16.800 --> 03:03:19.117
the nukes could launch at any moment. Uh

03:03:19.200 --> 03:03:21.277
I I it feels like it feels a little bit

03:03:21.360 --> 03:03:25.357
like some lesser version of that.

03:03:25.440 --> 03:03:27.460
>> [sighs and gasps]

03:03:28.240 --> 03:03:31.597
>> So yeah, I'm a libertarian who's
pro tariffs now is the is the real

03:03:31.680 --> 03:03:34.237
conclusion. I'm pro I'm pro tariffs

03:03:34.320 --> 03:03:35.597
until we have our own house in order.

03:03:35.680 --> 03:03:39.917
Like like I I like tariff I
I I'm not a fan of tariffs. I

03:03:40.000 --> 03:03:42.077
>> How long would it even
take to get our house in order?

03:03:42.160 --> 03:03:45.917
>> That not even that long. I mean you've
probably seen what people say, oh well

03:03:46.000 --> 03:03:48.557
maybe tariffs work in theory, but I mean

03:03:48.640 --> 03:03:51.037
it'll take years or decades to set up

03:03:51.120 --> 03:03:55.997
factories. That's bogus. Look at what
we did when we transformed this country

03:03:56.080 --> 03:04:00.237
during World War II. We went from
basically being a mercantalist quasi

03:04:00.320 --> 03:04:02.397
agrarian society to being the world's

03:04:02.480 --> 03:04:05.997
most powerful manufacturing hub in like

03:04:06.080 --> 03:04:10.397
a year and a half, 2 years. Are you
really telling me we couldn't do it

03:04:10.480 --> 03:04:14.797
again if it wasn't a priority? I I just
don't believe it. It's easier than ever

03:04:14.880 --> 03:04:18.637
to set up a factory. I've done it in
China. Like, it's it is easier than ever

03:04:18.720 --> 03:04:22.797
to set up advanced manufacturing. It's
just a matter of will. And you also need

03:04:22.880 --> 03:04:26.317
to staff it. Like you know what we've
done? We've built a country where

03:04:26.400 --> 03:04:29.437
through globalism,

03:04:29.520 --> 03:04:34.157
no smart kid wants to be a manufacturing
process engineer for example. Is there

03:04:34.240 --> 03:04:36.157
any world where Palmer lucky, let's say

03:04:36.240 --> 03:04:38.077
I was 18 years old, I'm deciding what my

03:04:38.160 --> 03:04:41.197
major is. Why in the world would I major

03:04:41.280 --> 03:04:45.117
in anything to do with manufacturing
knowing that there's hardly any

03:04:45.200 --> 03:04:46.797
manufacturing going on in my country?

03:04:46.880 --> 03:04:48.317
Right? If I'm a smart kid, I'm going to

03:04:48.400 --> 03:04:52.797
go work in finance or biotech or

03:04:52.880 --> 03:04:55.517
uh what what else are the kids doing
these days? I guess maybe working in

03:04:55.600 --> 03:04:59.917
video games. If we don't manufacture
here, then our smartest people aren't

03:05:00.000 --> 03:05:01.437
going to want to work in manufacturing.

03:05:01.520 --> 03:05:04.877
And so like this is a problem that's
go like at least when we got out of

03:05:04.960 --> 03:05:06.957
manufacturing stuff and call it like the

03:05:07.040 --> 03:05:09.917
the the like globalized the globalized

03:05:10.000 --> 03:05:12.557
decline starting in the '9s to now. At

03:05:12.640 --> 03:05:17.037
least back in the 90s, we still had all
the leftover people from the Cold War.

03:05:17.120 --> 03:05:21.037
Now they're all retired and now we don't
actually have anybody. So like this is a

03:05:21.120 --> 03:05:25.277
problem where we can build the factories
quickly. But the hardest part is going

03:05:25.360 --> 03:05:29.197
to be uh training the kids. Like we're
going to need to basically get serious

03:05:29.280 --> 03:05:33.277
about training people to run factories
well, efficiently, using modern

03:05:33.360 --> 03:05:37.437
techniques. And we we we do have
a we do have a lack of those.

03:05:37.520 --> 03:05:39.997
I have a big Have you heard
of the idea of defector visas?

03:05:40.080 --> 03:05:43.197
>> No. It's one of my pet political ideas.

03:05:43.280 --> 03:05:47.997
Um, during the Cold War, we gave a lot
of visas to people to come to the United

03:05:48.080 --> 03:05:50.157
States to immigrate here from hostile

03:05:50.240 --> 03:05:55.597
powers like the Soviet Union if
they were in a critical role in those

03:05:55.680 --> 03:05:58.957
countries. He basic said you're
important over there. You are one of

03:05:59.040 --> 03:06:02.877
like the the puzzle pieces that keeps
everything held together for, you know,

03:06:02.960 --> 03:06:06.557
their missile program. Come over to the
United States. We'll give you a job at

03:06:06.640 --> 03:06:10.877
NASA and uh and we'll give you you we'll
give you a visa. you can come or you get

03:06:10.960 --> 03:06:13.837
you can get an American life,
an American wife. It'll be it'll be

03:06:13.920 --> 03:06:17.757
fantastic. You're gonna love it. I think
we need to start doing that again. I

03:06:17.840 --> 03:06:20.157
think that that's one of the ways that we
can beat China because there's a lot

03:06:20.240 --> 03:06:24.637
of people in China. They're there, but
they don't really want to be. There's a

03:06:24.720 --> 03:06:28.637
lot of people who hate what China has
become. I would love it if we could say,

03:06:28.720 --> 03:06:32.717
you know what, we need a lot more people
in America who know how to manufacture.

03:06:32.800 --> 03:06:36.557
I want American jobs, right? To be clear,
I'm not saying we need to import

03:06:36.640 --> 03:06:39.917
people because we can't survive without
immigration. And I'm not one of those

03:06:40.000 --> 03:06:42.637
people. But if we can steal their very

03:06:42.720 --> 03:06:47.277
best manufacturing engineers, deprive
China of those people, and then put them

03:06:47.360 --> 03:06:51.997
to work here helping us catch up with
China on manufacturing, I mean, that's a

03:06:52.080 --> 03:06:55.757
great trade. You know, let's haul over
their best plant managers, and then

03:06:55.840 --> 03:07:00.237
let's have a thousand jobs created by each
of those guys here in America. Uh I

03:07:00.320 --> 03:07:04.077
I I think we need to bring back defector
visas. We need to own it. And it seems

03:07:04.160 --> 03:07:07.757
like a type of immigration that even
the really anti-immigration people can get

03:07:07.840 --> 03:07:11.997
behind because the point is like look,
we're not trying to bring in millions of

03:07:12.080 --> 03:07:14.717
fruit pickers. We're trying to steal the

03:07:14.800 --> 03:07:17.517
very best people from our greatest foe.

03:07:17.600 --> 03:07:20.877
Surely we can agree that that's usually
worth doing that. It's it's better for

03:07:20.960 --> 03:07:24.157
us to have those people for them
for them to be running the missile factory

03:07:24.240 --> 03:07:26.877
that's going to blow up our >>
There was a little bit of a debate on

03:07:26.960 --> 03:07:29.517
that what not too long ago. Correct.

03:07:29.600 --> 03:07:33.437
>> You like the skilled immigration
versus not. So that's true. The difference

03:07:33.520 --> 03:07:38.397
there is that H-1Bs are about whether
or not they're like on theory, of course,

03:07:38.480 --> 03:07:41.517
there's so much H-1B abuse. You would
not believe what I saw when I was in

03:07:41.600 --> 03:07:45.677
Silicon Valley. It's it is insane.
It's it's obviously a program to try and

03:07:45.760 --> 03:07:47.677
replace US workers with basically slave

03:07:47.760 --> 03:07:50.157
labor that can't ever escape. It's like

03:07:50.240 --> 03:07:52.877
it the H-1B abuse is crazy. But in

03:07:52.960 --> 03:07:58.477
theory, H-1Bs are to create a job for
an immigrant if there is not a person who

03:07:58.560 --> 03:08:01.997
could be hired to do that job in the
United States. A defector visa adds an

03:08:02.080 --> 03:08:05.437
additional requirement. It has to be
something that they care about that

03:08:05.520 --> 03:08:09.437
you're ripping away. So like it's not
just that there's a need for them here.

03:08:09.520 --> 03:08:13.277
It's that it's going to hurt China
by taking them. If if if China had like if

03:08:13.360 --> 03:08:17.037
China has a million people that do
something like let's say like let's say

03:08:17.120 --> 03:08:21.197
that we need more rice pickers here
and China's got more rice pickers. Uh

03:08:21.280 --> 03:08:22.797
China's got plenty of rice pickers.

03:08:22.880 --> 03:08:26.877
Taking taking a rice picker is not going
to hurt. taking the head of an advanced

03:08:26.960 --> 03:08:31.197
silicon manufacturing facility that can
make cuttingedge computer graphics chips

03:08:31.280 --> 03:08:34.557
that is going to really really hurt them.
So I say I say that that was the

03:08:34.640 --> 03:08:37.997
part of the debate that I didn't see
present is using immigration not just as

03:08:38.080 --> 03:08:40.317
a tool to help the United States but to

03:08:40.400 --> 03:08:45.037
harm our adversaries. I want it to I I
I want to stop focusing on the plow and

03:08:45.120 --> 03:08:46.637
start turning it into a sword.

03:08:46.720 --> 03:08:49.437
>> It's a double win. >> Exactly.
And and because there's a lot

03:08:49.520 --> 03:08:51.037
of people around the world who would

03:08:51.120 --> 03:08:54.317
rather be here who

03:08:54.400 --> 03:08:57.597
will cause catastrophic consequences for

03:08:57.680 --> 03:09:01.437
their home country if they leave. Like
here here's here's like a fun one. Think

03:09:01.520 --> 03:09:06.397
about the guys who are running the uh
>> it would be like if China plucked you.

03:09:06.480 --> 03:09:09.437
>> Yes. Like that that that's a great
example. Imagine if I had no national

03:09:09.520 --> 03:09:12.477
allegiance and they made an offer over
there and I really wanted to live in

03:09:12.560 --> 03:09:16.637
China and they just Yeah. They got they
got rid of me. that would cause so much

03:09:16.720 --> 03:09:20.557
downstream damage and the best like I
don't want to go to China. In fact, my c

03:09:20.640 --> 03:09:24.877
company is sanctioned by China on account
of our sales to Taiwan and so if

03:09:24.960 --> 03:09:29.117
I go to China or Hong Kong I'll I'll
be arrested. It's it's fantastic. Also

03:09:29.200 --> 03:09:33.357
Russia or Bellarus if I go to Barus I will
be I'll be arrested >> I would imagine.

03:09:33.440 --> 03:09:37.757
>> But uh how do you know that? Oh, they
put it out publicly that the Russia has

03:09:37.840 --> 03:09:41.517
the so-called poison list where they
say here are the the individuals that are

03:09:41.600 --> 03:09:44.077
under extreme sanctions personally

03:09:44.160 --> 03:09:46.557
individually as individuals. And uh and

03:09:46.640 --> 03:09:49.277
Bellarus also recognizes the uh I think

03:09:49.360 --> 03:09:53.037
Bellarus and maybe one maybe one other

03:09:53.120 --> 03:09:58.157
one other like weirdo Baltic breakoff.
I can't remember what it was, but there's

03:09:58.240 --> 03:10:01.837
a handful of countries in the world
where I where I literally can't go. But

03:10:01.920 --> 03:10:05.117
like uh think about like not even just
China. Like let's look like public.

03:10:05.200 --> 03:10:08.877
>> Oh yeah, it's public. I even tweeted
about it. I'll I I I actually have the I

03:10:08.960 --> 03:10:10.477
have the notice framed in my office.

03:10:10.560 --> 03:10:13.197
>> I was just going to say I want to get
that have you sign it and I'm going to

03:10:13.280 --> 03:10:15.357
frame it in. >> I will
definitely send one to you. I

03:10:15.440 --> 03:10:19.757
have one in my office. My dream is to get
it signed by Vladimir Putin somehow.

03:10:19.840 --> 03:10:23.517
Like just I just like want to get it
on his desk somehow or you know like at

03:10:23.600 --> 03:10:27.277
like a signing or something. Um by the
way he deserves a bit of credit on this

03:10:27.360 --> 03:10:31.917
AI stuff. He was saying before I even
started Anderol, the c country that wins

03:10:32.000 --> 03:10:35.197
in the sphere of artificial intelligence
will become the ruler of the entire

03:10:35.280 --> 03:10:40.157
world. Like I know that today that
sounds like not that interesting, but

03:10:40.240 --> 03:10:43.917
this was 9 years ago when everyone thought
everyone everyone thought AI was crazy.

03:10:44.000 --> 03:10:47.197
>> Jinping said that too.
>> So right and like you have all these

03:10:47.280 --> 03:10:50.637
world leaders who were
saying like could you imagine

03:10:50.720 --> 03:10:54.717
let's say like uh could you imagine
like Hillary Clinton having an opinion on

03:10:54.800 --> 03:10:57.917
something like that eight or nine years
ago? Absolutely not. Could you imagine

03:10:58.000 --> 03:11:00.477
Joe Biden like putting a a steak in the

03:11:00.560 --> 03:11:02.237
ground and it's like of course not. It's

03:11:02.320 --> 03:11:05.277
like anyway even in growing China like

03:11:05.360 --> 03:11:09.517
look at Venezuela. Let's take whoever's
running their like oil and gas machinery

03:11:09.600 --> 03:11:13.837
over there. Imagine what would happen
if we identified their top 10 most

03:11:13.920 --> 03:11:17.837
competent people who are running their
oil and gas organizations and we gave

03:11:17.920 --> 03:11:21.677
them all defector visas and said come to
America and you can work at Exxon Mobile

03:11:21.760 --> 03:11:25.357
on like industrial refinement systems
and we're going to pay you twice as much

03:11:25.440 --> 03:11:29.117
as you make in Venezuela. you would
destroy the whole Venezuelan economy

03:11:29.200 --> 03:11:33.677
overnight and you just have to take
like 10 people. So yeah, immigration is a

03:11:33.760 --> 03:11:37.997
sword. We need to be doing way more
of this because an American passport is

03:11:38.080 --> 03:11:40.317
worth its weight in diamonds, right? It

03:11:40.400 --> 03:11:42.637
is it is so valuable to these people.

03:11:42.720 --> 03:11:45.037
They desperately want it culturally.

03:11:45.120 --> 03:11:46.637
We've dominated the world, right?

03:11:46.720 --> 03:11:50.557
Everyone loves America. Even the people
who hate America love America. Even the

03:11:50.640 --> 03:11:53.917
people who hate America love our movies,
love our music. They love they all want

03:11:54.000 --> 03:11:56.237
to they all want to date American women.

03:11:56.320 --> 03:11:58.637
Like let let's take advantage of that.

03:11:58.720 --> 03:12:01.917
>> Let's talk about Anderol in the IVAS

03:12:02.000 --> 03:12:07.837
program. >> The IVAS program.
So when is this coming out?

03:12:07.920 --> 03:12:10.637
>> I don't know yet.
>> All right. Roughly roughly

03:12:10.720 --> 03:12:11.997
>> probably in a couple weeks.

03:12:12.080 --> 03:12:15.757
>> So Ivas is a program that is the modern

03:12:15.840 --> 03:12:20.317
instantiation of a very old idea. This
idea that you are going to augment the

03:12:20.400 --> 03:12:22.717
vision of soldiers and give them

03:12:22.800 --> 03:12:24.957
superhuman perception abilities. The

03:12:25.040 --> 03:12:27.917
idea is you can see at night, you can

03:12:28.000 --> 03:12:31.277
see thermal signatures. You can see

03:12:31.360 --> 03:12:34.077
hyperspectral signatures. You have

03:12:34.160 --> 03:12:36.797
extraordinary superhuman hearing. You're

03:12:36.880 --> 03:12:41.117
able to mark targets in the environment
without projecting anything in the

03:12:41.200 --> 03:12:43.677
environment. You can seamlessly see in

03:12:43.760 --> 03:12:48.397
your heads up display where all of your
friends are, where all of your foes are,

03:12:48.480 --> 03:12:51.917
where all of the innocents
and non-combatants are, and have that all

03:12:52.000 --> 03:12:55.277
just seamlessly presented to you as if
you're Superman. You know, you can see

03:12:55.360 --> 03:12:59.837
through walls, you can see through night,
you can see through fog. You are

03:12:59.920 --> 03:13:02.637
Superman. >> This idea
has been around for a very

03:13:02.720 --> 03:13:06.557
long time of putting a heads-up display,
a computer, and a radio on every

03:13:06.640 --> 03:13:10.797
soldier. You can even go back to Robert
Heinland's 1959 novel, Starship

03:13:10.880 --> 03:13:14.077
Troopers, and that was really
the concept behind the mobile infantry.

03:13:14.160 --> 03:13:18.317
They're wearing these kind of mech suits
with fighter jet style heads up displays

03:13:18.400 --> 03:13:21.677
that show them where all their targets
are, that show them where all of the

03:13:21.760 --> 03:13:25.517
good guys are, that help them do
ballistics calculations showing where

03:13:25.600 --> 03:13:29.357
bullet impact is going to be in a much
more intelligent way than just, you

03:13:29.440 --> 03:13:32.877
know, putting a red dot that's coaxial
aligned, but actually saying like here

03:13:32.960 --> 03:13:36.797
is the impact point, factoring
in the wind, factoring in your motion,

03:13:36.880 --> 03:13:40.557
factoring in what the other guy is doing.
People have tried this over and

03:13:40.640 --> 03:13:44.237
over again through history and the
tech's just never quite been ready and

03:13:44.320 --> 03:13:47.197
they've also not maybe worked on it
in quite the right way. But most

03:13:47.280 --> 03:13:49.677
importantly, nobody's ever built
a software back end that could make it

03:13:49.760 --> 03:13:54.397
work. Even if the helmets were okay,
they didn't have this kind of system,

03:13:54.480 --> 03:13:58.397
whether it's AI or something else that
could understand the whole battle space,

03:13:58.480 --> 03:14:03.437
taking in sensors from everybody. So my
helmet, his helmet, his helmet, and that

03:14:03.520 --> 03:14:07.357
airplane, and that airplane, and that
satellite, and that ship, and you get

03:14:07.440 --> 03:14:10.877
what I'm saying? You're taking building
one common fused view of the world in

03:14:10.960 --> 03:14:13.357
real time has never really been properly

03:14:13.440 --> 03:14:15.917
accomplished. And so you have programs

03:14:16.000 --> 03:14:21.037
like future warrior and net warrior and
connected soldier and land warrior. You

03:14:21.120 --> 03:14:24.477
have all these different programs where
the army has tried over and over. IVAS

03:14:24.560 --> 03:14:26.957
is sort of the latest the latest the

03:14:27.040 --> 03:14:29.357
latest attempt at this kind of

03:14:29.440 --> 03:14:31.917
individual infantry vision vision

03:14:32.000 --> 03:14:36.957
augmentation system. When the IVAS
contract was first awarded years ago, it

03:14:37.040 --> 03:14:40.957
was a really big deal and I was really
excited about it. Uh I would knew I

03:14:41.040 --> 03:14:43.837
couldn't compete with it because
unfortunately it was being awarded right

03:14:43.920 --> 03:14:47.357
around the time that I was starting Andre.
So when when the IVAS program was

03:14:47.440 --> 03:14:51.997
kind of running through the wickets,
Andre was 12 people. Obviously I was not

03:14:52.080 --> 03:14:54.157
going to be able to win this contract.

03:14:54.240 --> 03:14:57.597
But as an ARVR guy, I was really
excited that the army was moving in that

03:14:57.680 --> 03:14:59.917
direction and they were putting a lot of

03:15:00.000 --> 03:15:02.637
resources behind it. IDAS is a $22

03:15:02.720 --> 03:15:05.357
billion contract. It's enormous. The

03:15:05.440 --> 03:15:09.677
plan is not to put this
on the heads of one person

03:15:09.760 --> 03:15:12.317
or, you know, one top tier unit. It's to

03:15:12.400 --> 03:15:14.397
put it on the heads of every single

03:15:14.480 --> 03:15:17.197
person in the army who's bearing a

03:15:17.280 --> 03:15:21.517
rifle. Anyone who's making contact
with the enemy is going to have superhuman

03:15:21.600 --> 03:15:23.997
augmented vision that allows them to

03:15:24.080 --> 03:15:27.357
never miss anything, never miss their

03:15:27.440 --> 03:15:30.237
shot, never hit the wrong thing. you you

03:15:30.320 --> 03:15:34.557
you you probably more than almost any
anybody can probably understand how what

03:15:34.640 --> 03:15:35.917
an incredible tool that would be.

03:15:36.000 --> 03:15:39.837
>> Yeah. >> Um the problem
is that even Ivas has

03:15:39.920 --> 03:15:43.837
been plagued by many of the problems
that have have hit a lot of these other

03:15:43.920 --> 03:15:47.357
systems. You didn't have the backend
that could provide all of that data to

03:15:47.440 --> 03:15:49.197
make it a useful thing rather than just

03:15:49.280 --> 03:15:54.477
a heads-up display. You didn't have uh
the hardware working as well as it could

03:15:54.560 --> 03:15:57.757
have. There were a lot of soldier
reports that it was making people sick,

03:15:57.840 --> 03:16:01.197
that it was making people dizzy, that it
was causing signature problems. There

03:16:01.280 --> 03:16:05.757
were quotes from soldiers in evaluations
who said this is going to get me killed.

03:16:05.840 --> 03:16:07.437
Uh it was just it was running to a lot

03:16:07.520 --> 03:16:11.277
of issues. Anyway, the punchline is uh

03:16:11.360 --> 03:16:13.997
over the last year I've been working on

03:16:14.080 --> 03:16:16.317
an angle to try and get the IVAS program

03:16:16.400 --> 03:16:18.557
into a better place to try and make it

03:16:18.640 --> 03:16:23.597
everything that it should be.
A few months ago, we teamed up with

03:16:23.680 --> 03:16:27.597
Microsoft, which was the company that
had won the IVAS contract and that was

03:16:27.680 --> 03:16:30.077
using something based on their hollow

03:16:30.160 --> 03:16:32.237
lens system, which is now discontinued

03:16:32.320 --> 03:16:35.277
to build the IVAS product. And we

03:16:35.360 --> 03:16:39.677
partnered with them to integrate Lattis,
our AI system, with their heads-up

03:16:39.760 --> 03:16:43.357
display. So, uh, we we we integrated that.
We did it very quickly. It was

03:16:43.440 --> 03:16:44.877
actually a less than three-week process.

03:16:44.960 --> 03:16:47.997
In 3 weeks, we went from teaming up to

03:16:48.080 --> 03:16:51.277
having Lattis feeding all of our

03:16:51.360 --> 03:16:55.997
three-dimensional tracking information
into their existing IV assass. We did a

03:16:56.080 --> 03:16:59.757
soldier touchpoint with it. They used
it in some exercises and some in some

03:16:59.840 --> 03:17:03.357
trials. They said, "Oh my god, this is
incredible. I can see drones that are

03:17:03.440 --> 03:17:06.797
coming to attack me. I can see what
their attack vectors are. I can see

03:17:06.880 --> 03:17:11.277
where the people controlling them are.
I can see where I need to go to be safe in

03:17:11.360 --> 03:17:14.717
an amount of time that is reasonable
before that drone actually gets to me.

03:17:14.800 --> 03:17:16.797
You really, really powerful stuff.

03:17:16.880 --> 03:17:21.277
>> Wow. >> But here's the really big deal.

03:17:21.360 --> 03:17:25.677
>> As of just about now, Andrew is taking
over the IVAS program as the prime.

03:17:25.760 --> 03:17:27.597
Microsoft is transferring all of the

03:17:27.680 --> 03:17:31.357
employees, hardware, IP, facilities,

03:17:31.440 --> 03:17:36.317
everything to Ander. We are now going
to be the prime on the IBS program. We are

03:17:36.400 --> 03:17:37.757
going to continue to integrate Lattis

03:17:37.840 --> 03:17:40.477
into it and we are building

03:17:40.560 --> 03:17:44.077
a totally new system on the hardware

03:17:44.160 --> 03:17:45.677
side that is going to be better than

03:17:45.760 --> 03:17:47.677
anything that anyone has ever seen. It

03:17:47.760 --> 03:17:52.397
is going to be by far the best AR VR MR

03:17:52.480 --> 03:17:56.397
vision augmentation system that has ever
been built in terms of resolution, in

03:17:56.480 --> 03:18:00.237
terms of field of view, in terms
of graphical fidelity, in terms of sensor

03:18:00.320 --> 03:18:02.077
quality and what you can do with those

03:18:02.160 --> 03:18:06.317
sensors. It is a bigger jump from what

03:18:06.400 --> 03:18:09.117
exists today than the jump that I made

03:18:09.200 --> 03:18:13.117
when I started Oculus. It is

03:18:13.200 --> 03:18:16.797
a jump that I think cannot be overstated.
And I am very aligned with

03:18:16.880 --> 03:18:20.237
the Army's vision in terms of this being
something that should be on everybody,

03:18:20.320 --> 03:18:24.157
but I think my vision goes maybe even
a little further. I don't just want this

03:18:24.240 --> 03:18:26.077
on every person who's carrying a rifle.

03:18:26.160 --> 03:18:30.477
I want it on every logistician, every
load master, every rotary wing pilot,

03:18:30.560 --> 03:18:33.757
every fixed wing pilot. I want it
deployed with everybody across every

03:18:33.840 --> 03:18:38.237
service, every branch so that every
person is eyes for everyone else. If you

03:18:38.320 --> 03:18:41.037
police, >> I think that
police is going to be a

03:18:41.120 --> 03:18:45.437
very interesting, it's going to be
an interesting but adjacent challenge. So,

03:18:45.520 --> 03:18:47.917
for example, police, you're trying
to make something that they can wear all

03:18:48.000 --> 03:18:51.117
day, every day, and they're also
interacting face to face with people.

03:18:51.200 --> 03:18:53.357
Like, let me put it this way. You can't

03:18:53.440 --> 03:18:58.717
put a Robocop helmet on uh on most
police officers. It's it's it's too it's

03:18:58.800 --> 03:19:01.757
too heavy. It's too much protection.
and it's, you know, for what they're doing

03:19:01.840 --> 03:19:06.077
dayto-day. But the software back end
is certainly going to integrate. Like I I

03:19:06.160 --> 03:19:09.197
I'll give an example. I think that
probably what you're going to see on law

03:19:09.280 --> 03:19:13.517
enforcement officers is going to look
more like a pair of Oakleys that is

03:19:13.600 --> 03:19:16.877
still running Lattis. It's still showing
them where threats are, but it probably

03:19:16.960 --> 03:19:21.597
doesn't need the ability to pick up an
attack helicopter 15 clicks out and then

03:19:21.680 --> 03:19:25.357
flag them where they need to go.
Like I probably don't need that type of

03:19:25.440 --> 03:19:29.197
expensive sensing on there. I probably
need things that are much more, you

03:19:29.280 --> 03:19:32.557
know, of a local web. But, uh,
that's definitely going to happen and it's

03:19:32.640 --> 03:19:35.917
something I'm very excited about.
Also, like you look at things like body

03:19:36.000 --> 03:19:37.837
cameras. Like, you could make body

03:19:37.920 --> 03:19:40.477
cameras that are way better that do 360°

03:19:40.560 --> 03:19:45.117
capture. And right now, a body camera
for a law enforcement officer is really

03:19:45.200 --> 03:19:48.317
just a tool that gets his ass in hot
water, right? Like that's that's

03:19:48.400 --> 03:19:51.597
basically its job. Nobody

03:19:51.680 --> 03:19:55.677
not enough people look at footage from
these body cams and say, "Oh, wow. this

03:19:55.760 --> 03:19:58.717
guy was totally in the right in what
he did. Right? If the footage exonerates

03:19:58.800 --> 03:20:01.917
their actions, then everyone ignores
it and the media says nothing. And if it

03:20:02.000 --> 03:20:05.197
shows that he made any mistake, then
they're going to they're going to, you

03:20:05.280 --> 03:20:08.877
know, they're going to hoist
him by his own petard.

03:20:08.960 --> 03:20:13.357
What I want to see is body cameras that
are a tool that law enforcement officers

03:20:13.440 --> 03:20:16.637
are excited to use. I want something
that's watching my six. I want something

03:20:16.720 --> 03:20:19.597
that's watching for threats that I'm
not seeing. I want basically a guardian

03:20:19.680 --> 03:20:23.837
angel on my shoulder that is able to do
what backup would normally do for me and

03:20:23.920 --> 03:20:27.517
at a superhuman level. Like imagine if
you could have not just eyes in the back

03:20:27.600 --> 03:20:31.677
of your head, but what if you could have
a hundred eyes all throughout your head,

03:20:31.760 --> 03:20:36.157
all looking out into the world, and at
the slightest disturbance be like, "Holy

03:20:36.240 --> 03:20:39.197
[__] I think someone's opening that
window and firing like they're they're

03:20:39.280 --> 03:20:40.957
aiming a gun from that window." It

03:20:41.040 --> 03:20:46.397
should be telling me, not like, "Hey,
you know, be aware that someone might be

03:20:46.480 --> 03:20:49.517
shooting you." It should be giving you
even more direct commands than that.

03:20:49.600 --> 03:20:53.997
like it should like throw a red threat
alert and show you a direction you need

03:20:54.080 --> 03:20:58.077
to throw yourself immediately to not
get shot to get behind cover. Like you're

03:20:58.160 --> 03:20:59.517
going to see very tight integration

03:20:59.600 --> 03:21:01.277
between man and machine on these things.

03:21:01.360 --> 03:21:05.517
Anyway, I Ivas is very much a war

03:21:05.600 --> 03:21:09.837
fighter oriented system and it's
oriented towards the things that people

03:21:09.920 --> 03:21:13.117
at the tip of the spear are doing.
I think you're going to see similar ideas

03:21:13.200 --> 03:21:16.717
but oriented around maybe a different
form factor for law enforcement. What

03:21:16.800 --> 03:21:18.317
does it look like? What does it look

03:21:18.400 --> 03:21:22.317
like? It looks like a So, one of my

03:21:22.400 --> 03:21:26.397
beliefs with the with the previous
IVAS system, uh, it was not very tightly

03:21:26.480 --> 03:21:29.437
integrated into the helmet. So, you wear
your ballistic helmet and it basically

03:21:29.520 --> 03:21:33.197
straps on top of it. You like clip it
on the brim here. You run a strap to the

03:21:33.280 --> 03:21:36.877
back. There's a big battery packing
compute module back here. There's a big

03:21:36.960 --> 03:21:39.677
sensor brim you clip onto the helmet.

03:21:39.760 --> 03:21:43.437
Um, the problem when you're trying to clip

03:21:43.520 --> 03:21:47.117
onto an existing system is it ends up
not very tightly integrated. lots of

03:21:47.200 --> 03:21:49.437
snag points, lots of lots of snag

03:21:49.520 --> 03:21:51.357
hazard. It ends up being very heavy and

03:21:51.440 --> 03:21:54.237
and and misbalanced where it's really

03:21:54.320 --> 03:21:58.397
really torquing your neck. The thing
that I'm building is an allup integrated

03:21:58.480 --> 03:22:02.557
ballistic shell that integrates hearing
protection, hearing augmentation, vision

03:22:02.640 --> 03:22:04.877
protection, vision augmentation, all

03:22:04.960 --> 03:22:07.197
into one seamless ballistic shell that

03:22:07.280 --> 03:22:09.757
protects you from air bursts, direct

03:22:09.840 --> 03:22:12.237
fire rounds, all you blast and

03:22:12.320 --> 03:22:15.117
concussion, the whole thing in one

03:22:15.200 --> 03:22:17.517
integrated seamless product. And uh I'm

03:22:17.600 --> 03:22:19.677
I'm not quite ready to show the actual

03:22:19.760 --> 03:22:23.197
thing, but true to Anderal product

03:22:23.280 --> 03:22:27.677
company fashion, we've been investing
a ton of resources in this for years at

03:22:27.760 --> 03:22:32.877
this point. So I knew that I wanted this
to happen years ago. I wasn't sure if I

03:22:32.960 --> 03:22:35.997
would able to make it happen, but we
started putting millions of dollars into

03:22:36.080 --> 03:22:40.557
this years ago so that if it happened,
we would be ready to go and not, you

03:22:40.640 --> 03:22:42.877
know, trying to catch up from the start.

03:22:42.960 --> 03:22:45.517
Damn. Anyway, this [__] is going to be

03:22:45.600 --> 03:22:50.317
crazy. I'm I'm I'm I'm pretty So the first
the first fully integrated system,

03:22:50.400 --> 03:22:53.997
meaning it has all of the different
sensors, all of the different compute

03:22:54.080 --> 03:22:57.437
and vision augmentation systems all
integrated into one thing is going to be

03:22:57.520 --> 03:23:02.077
done at the end of March. So right now
we're basically in systems test where we

03:23:02.160 --> 03:23:06.397
have individual systems that we are,
you know, doing doing development and

03:23:06.480 --> 03:23:11.037
testing of. the first fully integrated
helmet with all of this stuff actually

03:23:11.120 --> 03:23:15.357
working like actually working tied
together tied together with lattice

03:23:15.440 --> 03:23:19.837
feeding tracks like that's all going
to be done in in in March and like just to

03:23:19.920 --> 03:23:22.717
give you an example of how useful
this might be like if you want to mark a

03:23:22.800 --> 03:23:26.397
target for somebody else you'd have to use
a laser right what if you could mark

03:23:26.480 --> 03:23:30.077
it digitally and you don't emit any
signature for anyone else with nods to

03:23:30.160 --> 03:23:33.597
see and what if everyone else can see it
here's an even crazier like and this is

03:23:33.680 --> 03:23:36.077
when I say crazy I don't mean like
a hypothetical like you could just do this

03:23:36.160 --> 03:23:40.077
with this Imagine that you're doing some
kind of pincer and you have some guys

03:23:40.160 --> 03:23:42.797
over here, some guys over here. And I

03:23:42.880 --> 03:23:44.797
can't see a guy behind that building,

03:23:44.880 --> 03:23:48.317
but you can. If you're seeing him, it's

03:23:48.400 --> 03:23:52.317
taking that track. It's taking that enemy
Mark and it's now putting it into

03:23:52.400 --> 03:23:56.877
my vision. I can now see through
the building, through the wall, and I can

03:23:56.960 --> 03:23:59.357
see the guy coming around
the corner before he's

03:23:59.440 --> 03:24:00.717
>> So, they're all talking to each other.

03:24:00.800 --> 03:24:05.117
>> They're it's all continuously.
And it's not just the helmets. You're also

03:24:05.200 --> 03:24:08.957
anything that's seamed in the lattice
is talking to you. So if there's a drone

03:24:09.040 --> 03:24:13.677
overhead that sees a guy five clicks
out that way coming up a hill and he's he

03:24:13.760 --> 03:24:16.637
thinks he's going to set up on top
of that hill and pop you. Imagine if it

03:24:16.720 --> 03:24:19.597
sees him and notifies you. You look at

03:24:19.680 --> 03:24:22.477
him coming over that hill and you bring

03:24:22.560 --> 03:24:27.437
your rifle on target. Literally the
moment he clears you're taking out that

03:24:27.520 --> 03:24:31.997
threat. That's the type of kind
of combined sensing and combined arms

03:24:32.080 --> 03:24:36.797
tactics that this enables. It's going
to make robots and people work together so

03:24:36.880 --> 03:24:40.637
seamlessly like they're just one
cohesive effective unit. And like this

03:24:40.720 --> 03:24:44.397
is also the way that I think you're
going to have, you know, robot dogs,

03:24:44.480 --> 03:24:49.037
robot soldiers integrated with human
force. Imagine if you see a guy who's,

03:24:49.120 --> 03:24:52.477
you know, running around a building,
you lose sight of him. You can't deal with

03:24:52.560 --> 03:24:56.317
him cuz you've got something else. What
if I can now task another robot and say,

03:24:56.400 --> 03:25:00.957
"Hey, just stay on that. Don't let
that guy get into a position where he can

03:25:01.040 --> 03:25:02.637
fire at me." and if it looks like he's

03:25:02.720 --> 03:25:05.197
going to let me know and we'll make him

03:25:05.280 --> 03:25:08.477
a priority. Now I don't have to spend my

03:25:08.560 --> 03:25:12.637
very limited vision processing and
engagement capability just tracking that

03:25:12.720 --> 03:25:15.917
potential threat who might be running
away or might be just repositioning.

03:25:16.000 --> 03:25:19.357
Like what isn't it great if I can just
tell the drone overhead, hey watch that

03:25:19.440 --> 03:25:23.677
guy if he's really just running away in
his sandals like I don't care about that

03:25:23.760 --> 03:25:26.637
right now. Maybe we're going to go track
him down later but I don't really care

03:25:26.720 --> 03:25:30.717
about him right now. Today it's really
hard to make that work. You end up with

03:25:30.800 --> 03:25:34.397
people getting basically pulled onto all
these different tasks and they have to

03:25:34.480 --> 03:25:38.317
make split-second decisions because they
don't have unlimited bandwidth. When you

03:25:38.400 --> 03:25:41.517
have computers watching all these
sensors and you have an unlimited amount

03:25:41.600 --> 03:25:44.877
of attention that a computer can give,
you can have that computer doing

03:25:44.960 --> 03:25:47.997
everything for you. You can say, "Watch
every single one of those windows and

03:25:48.080 --> 03:25:51.357
watch every single one of those doors
and just let me know if I need to worry

03:25:51.440 --> 03:25:53.357
about it." >> I got a question.

03:25:53.440 --> 03:25:55.117
>> That's [__] amazing. By the way,

03:25:55.200 --> 03:25:57.037
>> it's going to be so good. But would you

03:25:57.120 --> 03:26:01.517
be able to would there be any way to do

03:26:01.600 --> 03:26:04.477
>> let's say something
like the Bin Laden raid?

03:26:04.560 --> 03:26:06.557
>> Yeah. >> Would there
be would [clears throat]

03:26:06.640 --> 03:26:08.957
there be a way to integrate some type of

03:26:09.040 --> 03:26:10.797
facial recognition? So if you if you

03:26:10.880 --> 03:26:13.597
were if it was a a capture kill mission

03:26:13.680 --> 03:26:16.797
>> or potentially a hostage rescue

03:26:16.880 --> 03:26:19.357
um would would would the system would

03:26:19.440 --> 03:26:24.557
there be a way to to basically identify
hey this is that's the hostage. you

03:26:24.640 --> 03:26:27.437
know, that get that stuff can get tricky
depending on how they're dressed, what

03:26:27.520 --> 03:26:31.677
their effort is. >> I think

03:26:31.760 --> 03:26:35.117
so, I'll be honest.
I'm not a huge fan of facial recognition.

03:26:35.200 --> 03:26:37.357
>> Mostly because the situations where it

03:26:37.440 --> 03:26:40.797
works, I believe, are pretty limited.

03:26:40.880 --> 03:26:44.237
>> And if you're wrong, >> it's
such a spooky thing. Like like what

03:26:44.320 --> 03:26:49.357
if it tells you the wrong thing? Like
what what if it is wrong? How do you how

03:26:49.440 --> 03:26:53.997
do you how do you delegate
responsibility for that? And uh what

03:26:54.080 --> 03:26:56.637
about but but but I will tell you
this like here's how I would handle that

03:26:56.720 --> 03:26:59.757
problem. I probably wouldn't
use facial recognition.

03:26:59.840 --> 03:27:02.477
If I and I'm just making this up on the
fly. I haven't thought this through very

03:27:02.560 --> 03:27:04.237
well. So you'll have to forgive me.

03:27:04.320 --> 03:27:07.517
First of all, going into something like
the Mid Laden raid, I probably would

03:27:07.600 --> 03:27:10.077
have set up drones around that whole

03:27:10.160 --> 03:27:14.557
site with things like wall penetrating
radar systems that are flooding that

03:27:14.640 --> 03:27:18.077
whole area with RF energy so that I can
actually see people moving around inside

03:27:18.160 --> 03:27:21.917
the buildings behind the walls.
If I can do that, then I can like if I'm a

03:27:22.000 --> 03:27:25.437
hostage, I can probably guess like a guy
up against the wall, you know, who's

03:27:25.520 --> 03:27:28.397
staying there even when shit's going down.
Probably not someone I need to

03:27:28.480 --> 03:27:31.597
worry about as much as the guys who all
of a sudden start scrambling around like

03:27:31.680 --> 03:27:34.557
flies the moment that we land in the yard.
So that you're going to have a

03:27:34.640 --> 03:27:37.917
pretty good idea even just from [__]
like that. But if it were me, my

03:27:38.000 --> 03:27:41.517
understanding is during the Bin Laden
raid, there was a live video feed from

03:27:41.600 --> 03:27:43.757
the team back all the way to the

03:27:43.840 --> 03:27:46.797
situation room. Is that is that correct?

03:27:46.880 --> 03:27:50.637
>> That's what That's what I hear. That's
Well, that's that's what I hear. That's

03:27:50.720 --> 03:27:54.717
what I hear. I would love to see
a situation where you basically have the

03:27:54.800 --> 03:27:56.877
feed from everyone's cameras being fed

03:27:56.960 --> 03:27:58.797
back to a talk and you've got a bunch of

03:27:58.880 --> 03:28:04.237
analysts in there who have seen this guy
a 100,000 times on every bit of one of

03:28:04.320 --> 03:28:05.757
bit, you know, on all their intel.

03:28:05.840 --> 03:28:08.717
They've built up pattern of life on this
guy. They know what he's wearing every

03:28:08.800 --> 03:28:12.717
day when he goes to take a piss
in the yard. Like I would want a guy where

03:28:12.800 --> 03:28:16.877
instead of facial recognition trying to
make a guess, I can look at somebody and

03:28:16.960 --> 03:28:20.957
there's like 10 angels over my shoulder
in the form of human intel analysts

03:28:21.040 --> 03:28:23.677
who'll say that's him.
That that's the guy that you want.

03:28:23.760 --> 03:28:27.197
>> I mean there there could be other
things. Let's say let's let me give you

03:28:27.280 --> 03:28:30.717
another example. Maybe there's a CIA
asset that's on the ground or on the

03:28:30.800 --> 03:28:33.917
target at the time of the raid.
this that's going to be for us.

03:28:34.000 --> 03:28:38.237
>> So, you know,
or or you have the bad guy's

03:28:38.320 --> 03:28:40.717
>> phone, you know, in and it's it's just

03:28:40.800 --> 03:28:43.357
constantly tracking his phone or or the

03:28:43.440 --> 03:28:46.797
or the the CIS that has some type of a

03:28:46.880 --> 03:28:50.797
>> some type of a beacon that appears
into the imagery. Yep. That you're looking

03:28:50.880 --> 03:28:54.477
at. So, it just helps with the >>
that will definitely happen. And like if

03:28:54.560 --> 03:28:58.957
you think about like uh like I think
for that like CIA asset, he's probably not

03:28:59.040 --> 03:29:02.957
going to be wearing the full the system
that we're building is called eagle eye.

03:29:03.040 --> 03:29:06.077
>> Um he's not going to be wearing
a full eagle-eye, you know, integrated

03:29:06.160 --> 03:29:10.237
ballistic visor. Probably he's probably
wearing more something more like Oakleys

03:29:10.320 --> 03:29:13.917
that just look like he's just a normal
dude, but it's presenting him with hey,

03:29:14.000 --> 03:29:16.237
that's the target we're tracking him.

03:29:16.320 --> 03:29:19.437
>> What I'm Maybe I'm misspeaking here. Am

03:29:19.520 --> 03:29:23.837
I talking? I'm talking
about Okay, let's say

03:29:23.920 --> 03:29:28.637
It's I don't know. It's it's it's the

03:29:28.720 --> 03:29:32.877
target's doctor >> who
is reporting to the agency and he's

03:29:32.960 --> 03:29:37.117
the one that has the go switch
that's saying he's [__] here. Yep.

03:29:37.200 --> 03:29:41.437
>> Now's the time to do the hit. I'm
on target. I'm in the same room as him.

03:29:41.520 --> 03:29:45.277
>> Yep. >> Don't [__] shoot me.
I look just like everybody else here.

03:29:45.360 --> 03:29:49.197
>> You're saying some kind of marker
so that we know that it's super easy. I

03:29:49.280 --> 03:29:53.037
mean like you basically just so like
with eagle eyee you actually have that

03:29:53.120 --> 03:29:56.717
inherently all the helmets and I I can't
talk about how they do it because you

03:29:56.800 --> 03:30:00.237
know >> not great
information to be out there.

03:30:00.320 --> 03:30:05.437
>> There are multiple ways for the helmets
to know who is who even in really tough

03:30:05.520 --> 03:30:09.117
environments without the you know
without the bad guys being able to pick

03:30:09.200 --> 03:30:12.957
up on how that works. But basically,
if I'm wearing this helmet, if I look over

03:30:13.040 --> 03:30:16.077
into those bushes and my guys are over
there, it's popping up their names above

03:30:16.160 --> 03:30:18.077
their heads. >> Well,
I don't mean they couldn't be

03:30:18.160 --> 03:30:19.597
wearing the helmet because they're under.

03:30:19.680 --> 03:30:22.717
>> Yeah. And what I'm saying is it would
be trivially easy to make something where

03:30:22.800 --> 03:30:25.837
if you know what the guy looks like
and like you know what he's wearing. Yeah.

03:30:25.920 --> 03:30:29.197
You could have us just scanning for that
and it's looking like I'm all, you know,

03:30:29.280 --> 03:30:34.477
it's like man in doctor in white lab
coat and it's like it's Dr. Far in the

03:30:34.560 --> 03:30:38.637
white lab coat and he's going to be
wearing his tortois shell glasses. like

03:30:38.720 --> 03:30:41.437
that is something you could definitely
do where you enter the room and it says

03:30:41.520 --> 03:30:43.117
you know it outlines him in blue and it

03:30:43.200 --> 03:30:47.597
says Dr. referee probably. Um the the

03:30:47.680 --> 03:30:51.037
the thing no the thing is the more
>> it just makes the decision making

03:30:51.120 --> 03:30:53.277
>> well the situation you're talking
about that's that that's even a little

03:30:53.360 --> 03:30:56.077
different than facial recognition
specifically like I'm actually a huge

03:30:56.160 --> 03:30:59.837
fan of height recognition. So one of
the thing and when I say height it's not

03:30:59.920 --> 03:31:04.157
even height it's actually like skeletal
recognition. So face recognition is hard

03:31:04.240 --> 03:31:07.917
because you need pretty good you need
a good capture it needs to be relatively

03:31:08.000 --> 03:31:11.117
deadon. It needs to be lighting is it
is good enough. I'm a huge fan of being

03:31:11.200 --> 03:31:14.717
able to differentiate between people
different people on their skeletal pose.

03:31:14.800 --> 03:31:18.237
So, like if I have a drone that's way
overhead and it sees some guy walking

03:31:18.320 --> 03:31:22.477
through a doorway, especially if I know
how big that doorway is, uh I can take

03:31:22.560 --> 03:31:23.997
that video, run it back, and I can

03:31:24.080 --> 03:31:27.277
basically build a model of how long his

03:31:27.360 --> 03:31:32.397
wrist to arm joint to shoulder distances
are. And we're all different. Like,

03:31:32.480 --> 03:31:34.237
we're all uneven, too. Like, my arms are

03:31:34.320 --> 03:31:36.717
slightly uneven. Uh, if I can basically

03:31:36.800 --> 03:31:41.357
say, "Oh, look. It's a 6' one guy with
an arm that's 2 in shorter on this side

03:31:41.440 --> 03:31:43.117
and he leans a little bit to this side."

03:31:43.200 --> 03:31:46.397
Like, you can be pretty freaking sure
that's the same guy that you saw get

03:31:46.480 --> 03:31:51.597
into the car. Stuff like that is paired
with facial recognition a lot more

03:31:51.680 --> 03:31:54.317
powerful. And what you're describing,
it's like almost like clothing

03:31:54.400 --> 03:31:57.357
recognition, you know? It's like, yeah,
he's got a white lab coat, he's got the

03:31:57.440 --> 03:32:01.277
glasses, and he's got the face, and he's
got the hair. And like if if you have

03:32:01.360 --> 03:32:04.957
all of that but the guy is only like 4t
tall then it would say oh that's that's

03:32:05.040 --> 03:32:07.997
not Dr. Fish. It doesn't I don't I
don't care what his face looks like.

03:32:08.080 --> 03:32:11.597
>> Yeah. I'm just looking at like an
identifier something to identify him. It

03:32:11.680 --> 03:32:14.557
shows >> now. Are you imagining and you're
imagining that this is like happening on

03:32:14.640 --> 03:32:17.997
the fly like we can't give him a beacon
or something ahead of time cuz if he has

03:32:18.080 --> 03:32:22.157
a beacon it's really easy. If we can give
him >> it would be easy to get an asset a

03:32:22.240 --> 03:32:24.077
beacon. >> If I can give
him you could implant

03:32:24.160 --> 03:32:28.317
something in the inside of them. You
could you could give him a water bottle,

03:32:28.400 --> 03:32:30.717
you know, that has something
in it or I don't know

03:32:30.800 --> 03:32:33.837
>> honestly like there's there's so many
ways. So I mentioned like hyperspectral

03:32:33.920 --> 03:32:38.477
vision using hyper spectral cameras you
can look at things and they can tell you

03:32:38.560 --> 03:32:41.837
what it is made out of based on its
spectral response across multiple

03:32:41.920 --> 03:32:46.557
frequencies. So you can say like that
is stone that is glass and they you can

03:32:46.640 --> 03:32:49.917
have you ever seen hyperspectral cameras
that are used for detecting drugs? They

03:32:50.000 --> 03:32:53.277
can just look at something
and like that's cocaine.

03:32:53.360 --> 03:32:57.037
>> It's really wild. There have
been attempts in the past to use

03:32:57.120 --> 03:33:01.277
hyperspectral cameras for doing covert
marking of vehicles. So like you'll have

03:33:01.360 --> 03:33:04.317
an operative walk by a car and they
basically take a piece of invisible

03:33:04.400 --> 03:33:07.997
paint that you can't see with your human
eye and they just like smear a line

03:33:08.080 --> 03:33:12.317
along the hood as they walk by and it
looks just like a smear of, you know,

03:33:12.400 --> 03:33:16.157
dirt to a normal person. But on a
hyperspectral camera, it shows up as a

03:33:16.240 --> 03:33:19.037
bright orange streak on it. You could
just say like, "Hey, I'm going to give

03:33:19.120 --> 03:33:22.877
you a hyper like a pen made out of
hyperspectral stuff. I mean, like out of

03:33:22.960 --> 03:33:26.077
a weirdo material, like basically
a chemical you would not normally see in a

03:33:26.160 --> 03:33:29.197
pen, you could say, "I'm going to give
you these eyeglasses." Or honestly, you

03:33:29.280 --> 03:33:32.477
could give them some makeup. You could
have them smear some, you know, some of

03:33:32.560 --> 03:33:36.477
the right compound on their head and you
could have a system just see that and

03:33:36.560 --> 03:33:40.317
say, "Oh, it's it like that that that
it's that guy. Don't we're going to

03:33:40.400 --> 03:33:43.277
outline anyone who has this [__]
on their forehead. We're going to outline

03:33:43.360 --> 03:33:46.957
their whole body in blue as a as a
hostage." There's a lot of interesting

03:33:47.040 --> 03:33:49.597
things you can do there.
>> I haven't thought that much about these

03:33:49.680 --> 03:33:53.037
applications. I got to admit I've I've
mostly been thinking about it from a you

03:33:53.120 --> 03:33:56.397
know more big army versus
you know special tactics.

03:33:56.480 --> 03:33:59.117
>> I mean it'd be I mean you
know well that's the world I come

03:33:59.200 --> 03:34:01.677
>> we have we'll have to bring
you out once we have the

03:34:01.760 --> 03:34:05.757
>> bring out function to help develop it.

03:34:05.840 --> 03:34:10.717
>> We well the cool thing is I talked
earlier about lattice the goal is to

03:34:10.800 --> 03:34:13.597
take and like maybe you can see where
like my my grand scheme is all coming

03:34:13.680 --> 03:34:16.557
together here like when I started
and we said we're going to save taxpayers

03:34:16.640 --> 03:34:19.997
hundreds hundreds of billions of dollars.
We're gonna make our war

03:34:20.080 --> 03:34:23.357
fighters into unstoppable technommancers.
And we literally said

03:34:23.440 --> 03:34:27.757
we're going to build augmented reality
heads-up displays, fighter jets, smart

03:34:27.840 --> 03:34:30.477
cruise missiles. Like the things we're
building today are literally what we

03:34:30.560 --> 03:34:34.520
said we were going to build 8 years ago.

03:34:34.960 --> 03:34:37.757
But remember I talked earlier about how
Lattis, we're basically taking all this

03:34:37.840 --> 03:34:41.277
expertise of the world's best operators
and boiling it down into an AI model

03:34:41.360 --> 03:34:43.357
that can help you. Imagine if you're an

03:34:43.440 --> 03:34:45.597
operator who's wearing something like

03:34:45.680 --> 03:34:49.037
eagle eye and imagine if I not only have

03:34:49.120 --> 03:34:53.997
a system that is watching my six
and telling me what's going on. Imagine if

03:34:54.080 --> 03:34:55.837
it can look at an aircraft that's coming

03:34:55.920 --> 03:34:58.157
to engage us

03:34:58.240 --> 03:35:01.357
and then it also like on board the AI

03:35:01.440 --> 03:35:06.237
has the expertise of the world's best
fighter pilots. Like isn't that extraord

03:35:06.320 --> 03:35:09.997
your best rotary wing pilots like
by building all this expertise in you're

03:35:10.080 --> 03:35:13.357
potentially building a guardian angel
that is like the superhuman super

03:35:13.440 --> 03:35:17.757
intelligent thing. Like imagine
we can look at it and says oh [__]

03:35:17.840 --> 03:35:21.757
that's a Russian pilot based on the you
know tactics that it's observing or the

03:35:21.840 --> 03:35:25.357
way that it's working. says, "Oh,
he's going to come back around to do a low

03:35:25.440 --> 03:35:29.757
attack run." Like, this stuff is way
beyond just, "Oh, there's a dot and

03:35:29.840 --> 03:35:33.837
there's the enemy." If you have
the world's best expertise of the world's

03:35:33.920 --> 03:35:38.237
best warfighters distilled into one
super AI, it's like you're rolling

03:35:38.320 --> 03:35:41.997
around with a whole team of experts
sitting on your shoulder telling you

03:35:42.080 --> 03:35:46.237
what might happen next. And that's just
I'm I'm so excited to live in that world

03:35:46.320 --> 03:35:49.677
because I I imagine that's not the world
you live in, right? Like, or lived in.

03:35:49.760 --> 03:35:52.957
like I bet there were plenty of things
you did where you said, "Man, I wish

03:35:53.040 --> 03:35:54.877
that we had the world's leading expert

03:35:54.960 --> 03:36:00.317
on X, Y, or Z here with me to tell me
what was going on." And uh and so like

03:36:00.400 --> 03:36:03.757
you you've probably played with the AI
stuff where you're like, "Hey, like you

03:36:03.840 --> 03:36:06.637
know who won the 1960 World Series?"

03:36:06.720 --> 03:36:09.037
Like that's that's that's fine, but what

03:36:09.120 --> 03:36:12.477
if you could say, "Hey, how do I defuse

03:36:12.560 --> 03:36:16.557
this bomb?" like or like like like or

03:36:16.640 --> 03:36:19.837
like imagine like seeing a vehicle be like

03:36:19.920 --> 03:36:23.917
how do I hotwire this caram >>
and if it can just have all of that on

03:36:24.000 --> 03:36:28.397
tap for you and say oh well e either
here's how to do it or just say you're

03:36:28.480 --> 03:36:31.437
[__] out of luck you can't hotwire this
car in the 5 minutes that you have you

03:36:31.520 --> 03:36:35.277
need to move on really excited about
living in a world where everyone's

03:36:35.360 --> 03:36:38.637
working with access to the best
information >> I need one of these helmets

03:36:38.720 --> 03:36:41.997
>> we're gonna [laughter] so it's
interesting this is a little bit of an

03:36:42.080 --> 03:36:46.157
off-topic bit People have internally
been discussing this. Are we going to

03:36:46.240 --> 03:36:48.637
sell this to civilians? And it's one of

03:36:48.720 --> 03:36:51.117
those really shitty situations. Like I'm

03:36:51.200 --> 03:36:54.157
a gun owner. I own about 400 guns and I

03:36:54.240 --> 03:36:57.917
own a bunch of other gun related type

03:36:58.000 --> 03:36:59.677
systems as well. So like I'm I'm I'm

03:36:59.760 --> 03:37:02.317
really down the rabbit hole.

03:37:02.400 --> 03:37:07.277
And I'm a big fan of weapons companies,
especially gun companies, that sell the

03:37:07.360 --> 03:37:10.157
same things to the military that they
sell to civilians. That that's great.

03:37:10.240 --> 03:37:12.877
Like I I I hate it when they say, "Oh,
we're not going to sell this to you.

03:37:12.960 --> 03:37:16.077
We're only going to support
the government." The problem and I when I

03:37:16.160 --> 03:37:19.517
was like when I was not in the defense
space, I was always pissed about this.

03:37:19.600 --> 03:37:23.277
I'm like, "How dare they not sell me the
cool shit?" Like, "How dare they not do

03:37:23.360 --> 03:37:26.877
that?" But then I'm realizing
anything that I sell to civilians, I'm

03:37:26.960 --> 03:37:31.757
effectively also selling to Chinese
special forces, to Russian commandos.

03:37:31.840 --> 03:37:34.397
>> Now, I'm not saying that you'll be able
to that they'll be able to get enough to

03:37:34.480 --> 03:37:38.637
out their whole force. But anything you
sell to civilians is eventually going to

03:37:38.720 --> 03:37:42.957
get sold to a traitorous American.
It happens way too often. I hate that it

03:37:43.040 --> 03:37:46.237
happens, but you've read these stories,
right? You know, some guy sells on eBay

03:37:46.320 --> 03:37:50.637
night vision that is top-of-the-line
night vision to like literal Russian

03:37:50.720 --> 03:37:55.677
Russian cutouts. >> And so
I'm I I would hate to pro build

03:37:55.760 --> 03:38:00.157
this incredible capability and then all
of a sudden it's in the hands of the top

03:38:00.240 --> 03:38:04.317
tier units that we're potentially going
to be fighting against. And also I don't

03:38:04.400 --> 03:38:06.877
want them reverse engineering it. Like
I don't want them using it and learning

03:38:06.960 --> 03:38:09.837
how it works, learning whatever
my problems like because there will be

03:38:09.920 --> 03:38:13.597
problems. I am going to do my very
best to minimize the impact of those

03:38:13.680 --> 03:38:17.677
problems. Like I I know I'm something
is going to be wrong with our system. I

03:38:17.760 --> 03:38:21.997
would prefer that I don't have a bunch
of you know Russian cues walking around

03:38:22.080 --> 03:38:25.037
and trying it every day and realizing
that there's a way to for example you

03:38:25.120 --> 03:38:28.557
know trick the Dr. Farage facial
recognition so that it swaps the two

03:38:28.640 --> 03:38:31.117
things. Not that I'm
not that I'm going to let

03:38:31.200 --> 03:38:34.797
it do that anyway, but you you get what
I'm saying. So, I've been struggling

03:38:34.880 --> 03:38:38.397
with this. I want to sell to civilians,
but I also know that the national

03:38:38.480 --> 03:38:41.917
security impact is actually material
and real, and I haven't figured out how to

03:38:42.000 --> 03:38:45.757
reconcile that yet. One would be
to like sell a more limited version to

03:38:45.840 --> 03:38:50.317
civilians. Um, you know, maybe it
doesn't do everything. Like you probably

03:38:50.400 --> 03:38:52.157
don't want the civilian version to

03:38:52.240 --> 03:38:54.157
include the model that includes the

03:38:54.240 --> 03:38:57.357
weapons tactics advice of the best

03:38:57.440 --> 03:39:01.597
master chiefs and the best pilots
and the best admirals of you know history,

03:39:01.680 --> 03:39:04.957
right? Like that's probably dangerous
thing for our allies to or for our

03:39:05.040 --> 03:39:09.277
adversaries to have. >> Um you
probably don't want it to be able

03:39:09.360 --> 03:39:11.917
>> to it take about 5 seconds and it's in

03:39:12.000 --> 03:39:16.397
cartels hands. I had I yeah it had not
even run through my mind now but like

03:39:16.480 --> 03:39:20.557
that's another thing we you we do a lot
of work with CBP uh we actually have our

03:39:20.640 --> 03:39:25.037
AI power so our lattice sentry towers
are along about 30% of the border now

03:39:25.120 --> 03:39:29.197
we're covering hundreds of miles we are
responsible for hundreds of thousands of

03:39:29.280 --> 03:39:31.517
apprehensions that would not
have happened otherwise >> wow

03:39:31.600 --> 03:39:34.077
>> I am so proud of the work that we do

03:39:34.160 --> 03:39:38.637
with border patrol and could you imagine
if they start going up against cartels

03:39:38.720 --> 03:39:40.317
who have helmets telling them how to

03:39:40.400 --> 03:39:42.797
evade our systems

03:39:42.880 --> 03:39:48.077
how best to bypass them, sharing
tactics on when to send decoys across to

03:39:48.160 --> 03:39:51.757
distract them and saying, "Okay, based
on the average transit speed of a Humvey

03:39:51.840 --> 03:39:55.517
in this terrain, we think you have 16
minutes before they are able to get line

03:39:55.600 --> 03:39:58.477
of sight on you." Like, that's what I
want to be doing. And I I don't want to

03:39:58.560 --> 03:40:00.237
just tell soldiers what's happening now.

03:40:00.320 --> 03:40:02.957
I want to tell them what's probably
going to happen. I want to do predictive

03:40:03.040 --> 03:40:07.117
analysis and use data processing to say,
"Hey, like based on what we've seen in

03:40:07.200 --> 03:40:10.957
the past, tactics we've seen for the
from this enemy in the past, this is

03:40:11.040 --> 03:40:13.917
what they're going to be doing 10
minutes from now. I do not want the

03:40:14.000 --> 03:40:19.277
cartels having that shit." >> Could you
imagine if you were to say to Facebook?

03:40:19.360 --> 03:40:24.157
[laughter] >> What do you mean there?
You mean this wouldn't be happening?

03:40:24.240 --> 03:40:28.077
>> It's an interesting thing to ponder,
but you know, Mark's come around. Mark's

03:40:28.160 --> 03:40:32.077
based now. It's pretty interesting to
watch. Sure. You've you've you've you've

03:40:32.160 --> 03:40:34.717
you you've you've seen this going
on for >> Oh, yeah. I've seen it.

03:40:34.800 --> 03:40:37.677
>> It's a it it's I
think it's a reflection

03:40:37.760 --> 03:40:40.957
of a lot of things, you know, like the
world's changing. It's clear China's not

03:40:41.040 --> 03:40:44.637
our friend. It's clear they're not
the friend of our corporations. Uh it's

03:40:44.720 --> 03:40:48.717
clear that there's crazy people running
our media, crazy people running our

03:40:48.800 --> 03:40:51.197
politics. And eventually people who are

03:40:51.280 --> 03:40:56.797
smart, and Zuck is smart, right? He's
not he's not an idiot. At some point you

03:40:56.880 --> 03:41:00.797
at some point you come out of the matrix,
right? And I I think that's

03:41:00.880 --> 03:41:02.957
>> what I meant was Android
and Android would

03:41:03.040 --> 03:41:04.317
>> Oh, you mean if I wouldn't have started

03:41:04.400 --> 03:41:08.077
on Oculus 100%. I I mean, I don't want

03:41:08.160 --> 03:41:10.077
to I don't want to complain too much

03:41:10.160 --> 03:41:12.797
here, but one of my biggest beefs with

03:41:12.880 --> 03:41:16.477
the US defensive system is I could not

03:41:16.560 --> 03:41:19.197
have started Androll before Oculus. I've

03:41:19.280 --> 03:41:21.117
only been successful with Andre because

03:41:21.200 --> 03:41:23.917
I'd already made billions of dollars at

03:41:24.000 --> 03:41:26.237
another company. And that's kind of an

03:41:26.320 --> 03:41:29.037
indictment of our system. If you look at

03:41:29.120 --> 03:41:33.837
history, we have a long history as a
country of finding the best technology

03:41:33.920 --> 03:41:38.237
wherever it is and then building those
people and those technology up into

03:41:38.320 --> 03:41:41.037
incredible parts of our war fighting
apparatus. Are you familiar with like uh

03:41:41.120 --> 03:41:43.357
the Samuel Colt story? >> No.

03:41:43.440 --> 03:41:47.357
>> Or Smith and Wesson. So like Sam Colt

03:41:47.440 --> 03:41:49.677
was about to go bankrupt for the second

03:41:49.760 --> 03:41:52.637
time when he was handmaking revolvers

03:41:52.720 --> 03:41:55.837
out of the back of a covered wagon. And

03:41:55.920 --> 03:41:59.277
then he got a order from the Texas

03:41:59.360 --> 03:42:01.677
Rangers for like two dozen of his

03:42:01.760 --> 03:42:03.757
pistols. That paid his bills for the

03:42:03.840 --> 03:42:06.317
year. And then after that, the United

03:42:06.400 --> 03:42:10.237
States Army adopted his revolver as the

03:42:10.320 --> 03:42:13.997
standard service weapon because it
was so obviously superior to anything else

03:42:14.080 --> 03:42:16.797
that had come come before. So like the

03:42:16.880 --> 03:42:18.317
sick shooter of the time was an

03:42:18.400 --> 03:42:22.637
extraordinary sidearm. And he went in

03:42:22.720 --> 03:42:27.597
his life from almost being bankrupt
working out of a covered wagon to arming

03:42:27.680 --> 03:42:29.597
the entire Western world with his

03:42:29.680 --> 03:42:33.757
weapons. Like the designs that he made

03:42:33.840 --> 03:42:38.317
went from out of the back of a wagon
to literally tens of millions of units

03:42:38.400 --> 03:42:42.317
spread across America and Europe
defending defending America against

03:42:42.400 --> 03:42:46.637
Nazis and the Japanese. Like, isn't
that just like insane? Isn't Isn't that

03:42:46.720 --> 03:42:51.197
amazing that our country used to be
able to have those stories of finding the

03:42:51.280 --> 03:42:55.197
right guy? And so my like my question to
people is always could the United States

03:42:55.280 --> 03:42:57.677
military effectively buy something even

03:42:57.760 --> 03:42:59.837
if it was a game changer from Palmer

03:42:59.920 --> 03:43:03.517
Lucky of 2011 back when I was a teenager

03:43:03.600 --> 03:43:06.957
building Oculus. If I had gone
to the military and said, "I've changed

03:43:07.040 --> 03:43:10.397
everything. I've built a VR headset that
is better, faster, cheaper by an order

03:43:10.480 --> 03:43:15.597
of magnitude. It's $300 and it's better
than your best $300,000 headset and a

03:43:15.680 --> 03:43:18.317
tenth of the weight. Do you think they
would have been able to buy it or use

03:43:18.400 --> 03:43:20.557
it? Like, no. We It's this muscle we

03:43:20.640 --> 03:43:22.237
used to have that we've lost as a

03:43:22.320 --> 03:43:26.157
country where we're only willing to bet

03:43:26.240 --> 03:43:30.717
on people who have already made it,
companies that are already big. Nobody

03:43:30.800 --> 03:43:34.237
wants to take any risk. And in doing so,
they take more risk than they ever

03:43:34.320 --> 03:43:37.437
should. You know, a bureaucrat doesn't
want to risk his job. So, instead, he

03:43:37.520 --> 03:43:41.277
just risks our national security. It's
it's and so my the point I always make

03:43:41.360 --> 03:43:44.237
to people is we need to fix
our procurement system so that the Palmer

03:43:44.320 --> 03:43:46.877
Lucky of 2011

03:43:46.960 --> 03:43:49.437
can successfully sell into the military.

03:43:49.520 --> 03:43:53.517
We should not pat ourselves in the back
because and people are they're saying oh

03:43:53.600 --> 03:43:55.677
well I'm so glad things are changing.

03:43:55.760 --> 03:43:58.797
The success of Androl shows that we're
really getting our [__] together. I'm

03:43:58.880 --> 03:44:02.317
like, guys, like that's a good first step,
but let's not pat ourselves in the

03:44:02.400 --> 03:44:04.957
back for a billionaire successfully

03:44:05.040 --> 03:44:08.157
starting a new company, right? If if

03:44:08.240 --> 03:44:11.997
America, like that is not the problem
America has is that billionaires aren't

03:44:12.080 --> 03:44:14.557
good at starting companies. Like if
you have a billion dollars, you can do

03:44:14.640 --> 03:44:17.437
whatever you want. You can start an ice
cream company, you can start a defense

03:44:17.520 --> 03:44:21.997
company, but we need we need to we need
to open it up to a lot more innovation

03:44:22.080 --> 03:44:24.157
that doesn't come from people like me.

03:44:24.240 --> 03:44:26.877
>> Man, I love that you
just said that. And

03:44:26.960 --> 03:44:31.277
uh I got to be honest there. I had a lot
more that I want to talk with you, but I

03:44:31.360 --> 03:44:35.677
think this is the perfect I think this
is the perfect place to end this. And um

03:44:35.760 --> 03:44:38.637
>> well, it's an important one. And I
hope that people who are listening are

03:44:38.720 --> 03:44:42.317
considering working on national
security problems because

03:44:42.400 --> 03:44:46.797
>> even if you think that you are not
relevant or not helpful, you're probably

03:44:46.880 --> 03:44:50.637
wrong. Like if you are good with
computers, there are places that

03:44:50.720 --> 03:44:54.077
desperately need you. If you are good
at metallurgy, mechanical engineering,

03:44:54.160 --> 03:44:57.677
electrical engineering, there are places
that desperately need you. If you're

03:44:57.760 --> 03:45:02.077
just good at talking and good at sales,
there are places that desperately need

03:45:02.160 --> 03:45:06.957
you. Like there's there's a a whole new
wave of new defense companies that are

03:45:07.040 --> 03:45:08.957
nipping at the heels of the big guys.

03:45:09.040 --> 03:45:11.037
Now is a great time for someone who

03:45:11.120 --> 03:45:13.437
cares about the future of our country to

03:45:13.520 --> 03:45:18.957
shift out of, you know, building parking
apps and into building things that are

03:45:19.040 --> 03:45:22.237
going to keep people from getting their
heads blown off, right? That that that

03:45:22.320 --> 03:45:23.997
is where we need our best and brightest.

03:45:24.080 --> 03:45:26.477
And uh it feels it feels like I hate I

03:45:26.560 --> 03:45:29.357
hate to be uh I hate to be mimemetically

03:45:29.440 --> 03:45:33.677
aligned to this degree, but the vibe
shift is real. Like I I think people

03:45:33.760 --> 03:45:34.717
should take advantage of that.

03:45:34.800 --> 03:45:37.037
>> Definitely is. Definitely is.
Would you come back?

03:45:37.120 --> 03:45:40.957
>> 100%. This has been a lot of fun and I
got to I got to get you into an eagle

03:45:41.040 --> 03:45:43.117
eye though. >> I would love that.

03:45:43.200 --> 03:45:45.997
>> We'll let you know as soon as it's
as soon as it's uh as soon as it's cleared

03:45:46.080 --> 03:45:48.957
by as soon as it's cleared by the army
for us to start showing people.

03:45:49.040 --> 03:45:52.317
>> Perfect. Well, we won't release that.
We won't release this until the

03:45:52.400 --> 03:45:54.557
announcement comes. >> Perfect.
And I I and I think it will

03:45:54.640 --> 03:45:58.237
come in time. I'm I'm tell I'm telling
you ahead of the announcement, but the

03:45:58.320 --> 03:46:02.157
announcement I believe is going to get
cleared by the customer before before

03:46:02.240 --> 03:46:03.757
this airs. So fingers crossed.

03:46:03.840 --> 03:46:06.077
>> Perfect. All right. Well, Palmer, I

03:46:06.160 --> 03:46:08.637
really appreciate you and [gasps]

03:46:08.720 --> 03:46:14.157
damn, what a fascinating interview.
I'm just Wow. Wow. It

03:46:14.240 --> 03:46:18.360
>> was a lot of fun. >> Thank you.

03:46:24.200 --> 03:46:26.220
[music]