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You went to law school and you got a PhD
in philosophy. Why why law school and

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philosophy? >> I mean,
law school was I I thought I

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could actually help people with a law
degree. What I discovered quickly is

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hard to help people if you have no
interest in what you're doing. So,

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[laughter]

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um I that was this weird thing where um

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a lot in business, one of my theories
is a lot of the best decisions happen for

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the wrong reasons. Like I had a reason
for going to law school, it made no

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sense. Mhm. >> Um I but

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I spent a lot of time fighting with
Peter about political issues and that

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made a lot of sense. >> Peter
Peter Taylor was in your class at

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law school at Stanford. >> Yeah.
And we were in the same dorm and

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in the same section and uh we both had

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um heterogeneous

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nonconformant views. his leaning

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to the right, mine

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more classically, but not completely
classically on the left. I spent no time

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doing anything at there except
for reading books and running into people

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and arguing with them.
Peter being the primary one. And

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so that made a lot later this the
Stanford thing really you Stanford is

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the premier university
for tech in the world. It

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>> it is what connected all of us
I guess ultimately in the end. Yeah,

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>> the [clears throat]
Stanford Stanford is

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a fascinating institution and in and of

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itself, but it it is the tech university

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of the world and I didn't think of it
that way when I went there. I certainly

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was not it was not at all part of my
thinking. Um, it also made me think I

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should go do something I wanted to do

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because I was unhappy there. And what I

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wanted to do was write about um

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basically Germanic post-war thought in

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in whatever field. I didn't really care

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that much. But I didn't want to do a PhD
in the US because that would have meant

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doing a master's degree and doing three
years of regurgitation. It's like I've

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already done I've already
had a three-year bid.

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>> Got it. >> Like I don't
want to, you know, I've

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I've escaped my three-year bid.
I want to go do what I want to do.

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Um, and and you ended up studying under
Hammer Moss. Was that was he somebody

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you'd studied previously you
were excited to work with?

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>> The longer version is I went over the
study with him. I was in his colloquium

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and I and I studied with him. Then we
had a falling out and then I finished my

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PhD with someone else. Um but the not on

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bad terms it's just I I I discovered

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while writing my PhD

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uh that the stakes were very low and the

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personalities were very difficult and I

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also discovered partly by in proximity
to him but in proximity to other people

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who were kind of world class. one

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meeting with Lumman uh watching debates

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between Habrams and Apo uh people came

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to the colloquium and Habas that I had
certain abilities they didn't have to

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like be a builder

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>> and while I was good
enough to be in the

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room with them and argue with them
on where I was a technical expert

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dedicating myself to reading and writing

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all day

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was not what I wanted and they did not
seem to understand I I wouldn't have put

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in these terms cuz I hadn't built
anything but they didn't have the right

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personality for building. >> Yeah.

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>> Um >> well there's
a certain from the business

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world perspective there's a certain
dysfunction to a lot of the smartest

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academics that they're very good at some
things but they can never come out into

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what we see as the real world. I guess for
them that they're in their own real world.

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>> Yeah this is true. I would say in

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fairness to people at the level of um

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like Appel Habas Lumman and others that

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I ran into Bella came to a speech gave a

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speech at Harvard. I think they would

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have succeeded at anything really there

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there is a yeah there is a level now

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maybe it would be have to be low
on human management but there are

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entrepreneurs who are
low on human management

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>> they're just so smart they'd figure
they'd iterate and figure it out with

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their wisdom

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>> the level of talent that um just take

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Nicholas Lumman who's wouldn't be for

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the audience is um probably the most

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important thinker of social thought post

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World War II uh wrote more than most of

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us read in a life um and was developed

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this kind of theory systems theory which
was a way of explaining how humans and

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systems function that basically is if
you were only reading one thing you

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would read

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this this one of the really important

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things about working with people at that

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level is you're working with people
at that level there's just a way in which

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the gears are different. And while I

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don't think they would build or run

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Palunteer particularly well, I do think

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that they could materially advance an

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institution. They might have to have

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someone below them who could actually

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interact with the people, but these are

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people who are just like when we were,

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you know, building Palry
together, our engineers