WEBVTT 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.757 Basically, the whole crypto industry was in the process of moving offshore and 00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:07.037 America was being deprived of this industry of the future. 00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:10.077 >> I think the country had a significant victory with the president signing the 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:13.997 stablecoin bill into law. I think that the positive consequences of that law 00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:15.277 have been even bigger than we thought. 00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:18.717 >> The legislation was declared dead many times. I think that we will get the 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:21.837 clarity act done. This will provide the regulatory framework for all the other 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:24.317 tokens besides stable coins. There are a lot of twists and turns in the 00:00:24.400 --> 00:00:26.237 legislative process. It's definitely true that you don't want to see the 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:30.840 sausage getting made. >> [music] 00:00:34.060 --> 00:00:36.080 [music] 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:41.277 >> Welcome to Web 3 with A6Z Crypto. 00:00:41.360 --> 00:00:45.197 Today's episode is a special crossover with the A16Z podcast [music] 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:49.997 featuring David Saxs, the Trump administration's AI and cryptozar in 00:00:50.080 --> 00:00:51.437 conversation [music] with A16Z 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:54.397 co-founders Mark Andre and Ben Horowitz, 00:00:54.480 --> 00:00:57.357 and general partner Eric Torenberg. 00:00:57.440 --> 00:01:01.677 They dig into how the US is approaching AI and crypto policy, the fight over 00:01:01.760 --> 00:01:05.837 open- source software, and what's at stake in the global tech race with 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:08.077 China. Be sure [snorts] to follow and 00:01:08.160 --> 00:01:13.197 subscribe to the A16Z podcast for more conversations like this one. David, 00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:15.437 welcome to the A6Z podcast. Thanks for joining. 00:01:15.520 --> 00:01:19.277 >> Yeah, good to be here. So, David, you're the AI and cryptosar. Why don't you 00:01:19.360 --> 00:01:22.557 first talk about why it makes sense to have those as a portfolio? What do they 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:25.197 have to do with each other? and then I'll have you lay out what's the what's 00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:28.957 the what's the Trump plan on those those two categories and how we're doing. 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:30.877 >> Well, there are two technologies that I 00:01:30.960 --> 00:01:33.917 guess are relatively new and so there's 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:39.597 a lot of fear of them and uh I think people don't know that much about them. 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:43.597 They don't really know what to make of them. I think that from a policy 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:46.237 standpoint and we can talk about the similarities and differences. The the 00:01:46.320 --> 00:01:49.037 approaches are a little different. Um, 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:51.277 I think with crypto, the main thing 00:01:51.360 --> 00:01:54.557 that's needed is regulatory certainty. 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:58.477 You know, all the entrepreneurs I've talked to over the years, they they all 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:01.437 say the same thing, which is just tell us what the rules are. We're happy to 00:02:01.520 --> 00:02:05.037 comply, but people, you know, watch them won't tell us what they And in fact, 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:06.477 during the Biden years, 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:10.717 >> you had um an SEC chairman who uh took 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:14.717 an approach which I guess has been called um regulation through uh 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:17.917 enforcement, which basically means you just get prosecuted. They don't tell you 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:21.437 what the rules are. You just basically get indicted and then everyone else is 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.637 supposed to divine what the rules are um 00:02:24.720 --> 00:02:27.197 as you get prosecuted and fined and 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:29.357 imprisoned. So that was the approach for 00:02:29.440 --> 00:02:31.677 several years and um you know and and 00:02:31.760 --> 00:02:34.397 and there and as a result of that 00:02:34.480 --> 00:02:36.397 basically the whole crypto industry was 00:02:36.480 --> 00:02:39.437 in the process of moving offshore and uh 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:41.597 and America I think was being deprived 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:45.037 of this industry of the future. And so 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:48.077 President Trump during his campaign and 00:02:48.160 --> 00:02:53.037 last year he gave a now famous speech in Nashville in which he declared that he 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:56.717 would make the United States the crypto capital of the planet and that he would 00:02:56.800 --> 00:02:59.757 fire Gendler. That was like the big applause line. I think he 00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:03.437 >> he's applauded. [laughter] >> He's talked about how surprised he was 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:08.397 that you know what a big uh you know ovation he got at that. So he said it 00:03:08.480 --> 00:03:11.517 again and you know the crowd erupted again. But in any event, he promised 00:03:11.600 --> 00:03:16.877 basically to provide this clarity so that um you know the the industry would 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:21.357 um understand what the rules are, be able to comply. In turn, that gives that 00:03:21.440 --> 00:03:23.677 should provide uh greater protection for 00:03:23.760 --> 00:03:26.637 consumers and um businesses, everyone 00:03:26.720 --> 00:03:31.037 who's part of the ecosystem. Uh and it makes America more competitive. So I 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:32.957 think that's sort of the the the the 00:03:33.040 --> 00:03:36.957 mandate on on crypto is uh it's in a way 00:03:37.040 --> 00:03:40.077 it's pro- regulation. is basically we we 00:03:40.160 --> 00:03:45.117 want to put in place regulations. In a in a way, AI is kind of the opposite 00:03:45.200 --> 00:03:48.877 where I think the Biden administration was too heavy-handed. They were starting 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:52.317 to really regulate this area without even understanding what it was. They 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:57.117 weren't they had no one had really taken the time to understand uh how AI was 00:03:57.200 --> 00:04:00.957 even being used, what the real um dangers were. there was this intense 00:04:01.040 --> 00:04:02.477 fear-mongering 00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:05.037 and as a result of that, you know, the 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:09.517 approach of the B administration was uh they were in the process of of 00:04:09.600 --> 00:04:13.277 implementing very heavy-handed regulations on both the software and 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:15.597 hardware side. And we can drill into 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:17.917 that. I think that with the Trump 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:20.637 administration, um the approach has been 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:25.037 that we want the United States to win the AI race. Um it's a global 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:29.597 competition. Um, sometimes we mention the fact that China is our probably our 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:33.117 main competitor in this area. They're the only other country that has the 00:04:33.200 --> 00:04:36.317 technological capability, the talent, 00:04:36.400 --> 00:04:39.757 the knowhow, the um expertise to to beat 00:04:39.840 --> 00:04:44.317 us in this area. And we want to make sure the United States wins. Um, and of 00:04:44.400 --> 00:04:47.837 course in the US, it's not really the government that's responsible for 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:51.437 innovation, it's the private sector. So that means that our companies have to 00:04:51.520 --> 00:04:55.357 win. And if you're imposing all sorts of crazy um burdensome regulation on them, 00:04:55.440 --> 00:04:57.197 then that's going to hurt not not help. 00:04:57.280 --> 00:05:00.317 So um the president gave a I think very 00:05:00.400 --> 00:05:04.957 important AI policy speech a couple months ago on July 23rd where he 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:09.517 declared in no uncertain terms that we had to win the AI race and he laid out 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.757 several pillars on on how we do that. It 00:05:11.840 --> 00:05:16.637 was pro- innovation, pro infrastructure, which also means uh pro energy and pro 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:20.077 export. And we can drill into all those things if you want, but that was sort of 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:22.717 the the high line. And so I think that, 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:27.997 you know, again with with AI, um the idea is kind of like h how do we unleash 00:05:28.080 --> 00:05:31.117 innovation? And I think with crypto, it's been more about how do we create 00:05:31.200 --> 00:05:36.637 regulatory certainty? Um but you know, in terms of my role, like what you know, 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:39.677 why why am I doing both? I mean, I think the common denominator is just again 00:05:39.760 --> 00:05:42.877 these are new technologies. They um you 00:05:42.960 --> 00:05:46.877 know they're both um you know obviously come from from the tech industry which 00:05:46.960 --> 00:05:50.877 has a very different culture than Washington does and I kind of see as my 00:05:50.960 --> 00:05:53.437 role to help be a bridge between what's 00:05:53.520 --> 00:05:54.637 happening in Silicon Valley and what's 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:58.477 happening in Washington and helping 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:02.317 Washington understand not just the policy that's needed or or the 00:06:02.400 --> 00:06:07.277 innovation that's happening but also kind of culturally you know what what 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:10.237 makes the tech industry different and special and and how that needs to be 00:06:10.320 --> 00:06:14.957 protected. um from government doing something 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:18.157 excessively heavy-handed. >> So um so David, you know, we're going to 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:21.517 talk a lot about AI today, but just on crypto, I've I've had this interesting 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:24.417 experience this year kind of after the, you know, election, you know, kind 00:06:24.500 --> 00:06:27.117 [snorts] of people adjusted to the change uh of government. And I've had 00:06:27.200 --> 00:06:30.717 this discussion with, you know, a number of people who, let's say, in in politics 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:34.237 who were previously anti-crypto who have been, you know, trying to figure out how 00:06:34.320 --> 00:06:37.277 to kind of get to a more sensible position. Um and then also actually 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:39.837 people in the in the financial services industry who kind of followed it from a 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:42.877 distance um and maybe you know participated in the you know the various 00:06:42.960 --> 00:06:45.917 debanking things without really understanding what was happening. Um but 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.117 the the common denominator has been they're like you know Mark I didn't 00:06:49.200 --> 00:06:51.917 really understand um how bad it was. Um, 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:56.797 I basically thought you guys in tech were basically just whining a lot. Um, 00:06:56.880 --> 00:06:59.757 and you know, pleading as a special interest, um, and kind of doing the 00:06:59.840 --> 00:07:02.957 normal thing. And I figured, you know, the the, you know, the horror stories 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:06.397 were kind of made up, you know, of people getting prosecuted and, you know, 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:09.197 entrepreneurs getting their houses raided by the FBI and, you know, like 00:07:09.280 --> 00:07:12.557 the whole paniply of things that, you know, that happened and like I didn't 00:07:12.640 --> 00:07:15.917 really I I now in retrospect now that I now that I go back and look, I'm like, 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:20.077 "Oh my god, this was actually much worse than I thought." Um, what do you do you 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:23.277 do you have that experience? as as as you're in there and kind of as you now 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.237 have like a complete view of everything that happened like do you think people 00:07:26.320 --> 00:07:28.237 understand actually how bad it was? 00:07:28.320 --> 00:07:31.117 >> I mean I think it's a a great point. I mean I didn't really know either. You 00:07:31.200 --> 00:07:35.917 kind of heard um generally I mean we knew that there was debanking going on 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:38.877 and and by the way it wasn't just crypto companies that were being debanked but 00:07:38.960 --> 00:07:42.957 their founders were being debanked personally. So if you were the founder 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:45.837 of a crypto company you couldn't open a bank account. I mean that's a huge 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:50.397 problem. It's like how do you how do you transact? How do you make payments? um 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:52.957 how do you pay people? I mean it basically deprivives you of a 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:56.637 livelihood. It's a very extreme form of censorship. So that was definitely 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.957 happening. And then of course you have all the the prosecutions uh that the SEC 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:02.877 was behind. So yeah, it was it was 00:08:02.960 --> 00:08:05.677 really bad. I remember um back in I 00:08:05.760 --> 00:08:08.077 think it was in March uh we had a crypto 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:10.717 summit at the White House and um one of 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:15.437 the attendees said that you know a year ago uh I would have thought it was more 00:08:15.520 --> 00:08:19.917 likely that I'd be in jail than that I'd be at the White House. Um and so it was, 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:23.357 you know, it was a really big milestone for for the industry. They had never 00:08:23.440 --> 00:08:28.477 ever received any kind of recognition like that. The idea that this was even a 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:30.237 industry that you would do an event at 00:08:30.320 --> 00:08:33.437 the White House. I mean um at a minimum 00:08:33.520 --> 00:08:36.157 I think crypto is seen as very day class 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:40.957 A. Um but uh but in any event, yeah, no, it's been a it's been a huge shift. I 00:08:41.040 --> 00:08:43.037 mean, we basically have have um have 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:48.477 stopped that. And um and you know, it was very unfair because again, these 00:08:48.560 --> 00:08:52.317 founders wanted to comply with the rules, but they weren't told what they 00:08:52.400 --> 00:08:56.717 were. Um and that was all part of a deliberate strategy, I think, to drive 00:08:56.800 --> 00:08:58.557 crypto offshore. 00:08:58.640 --> 00:09:02.317 >> Yeah. One of the things that um is very 00:09:02.400 --> 00:09:05.997 different between crypto and AI that we've noticed is that on the crypto 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:08.317 front, everybody just wanted rules. um 00:09:08.400 --> 00:09:11.437 and the industry was relatively unified. 00:09:11.520 --> 00:09:14.797 Whereas in AI, we've seen very like 00:09:14.880 --> 00:09:19.677 interesting kind of calls coming from inside the house with uh certain 00:09:19.760 --> 00:09:23.357 companies really going for regulatory capture. You know, people have early 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:27.597 leads saying let's cut off all new companies from developing AI and so 00:09:27.680 --> 00:09:29.917 forth. Um what do you make of that and 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:32.077 and where do you think that's going? 00:09:32.160 --> 00:09:34.637 >> I think it's I think it's a very big 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:39.117 problem. Um I actually recently criticized uh one of our AI model 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:42.237 companies for engaging in a regulatory capture strategy. 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:45.357 >> Yes. Um >> it's a very fair criticism [laughter] by the way. 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:48.397 >> It is very fair and actually um you know 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:51.117 of course they denied it and then uh 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:52.397 should I tell the story? I mean 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.757 >> yes rarely do you get vindicated on on X 00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:00.157 so so thoroughly and completely as I did on this because [laughter] after this 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:04.077 company was basically anthropic after they denied it. There was um I mean what 00:10:04.160 --> 00:10:07.277 basically happened is that Jack Clark who's a co-founder and head of policy 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:09.597 for anthropic gave a speech at a a 00:10:09.680 --> 00:10:13.917 conference where he said that uh he 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:17.837 compared fear of AI to a child um you 00:10:17.920 --> 00:10:21.197 know seeing monsters in the dark or or or thinking there were monsters in the 00:10:21.280 --> 00:10:23.037 dark and but then you turn the lights on 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:25.117 and the monsters are there. I thought 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:28.717 that was such a um ridiculous analogy. I 00:10:28.800 --> 00:10:32.957 mean it's basically purile. I mean, it's it's so childish just to be almost 00:10:33.040 --> 00:10:37.757 self-indicting because you're basically admitting the fear is made up, not real. 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.117 >> Uh, in any event, so I said, well, this is like fear-mongering and part of the 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:44.877 regulatory capture strategy. And of course, they denied it. But then um a 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:48.237 lawyer who was in the crowd at his speech said, "Well, yeah, but Jack's not 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:50.477 telling you what he said during the Q&A, 00:10:50.560 --> 00:10:55.357 which he basically admitted that everything that Anthropic was doing was 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:59.677 uh you know, with with like things like SB53, which is supposedly just 00:10:59.760 --> 00:11:03.357 implementing transparency." He said, "No, that's all that he admitted that 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:08.077 was just a stepping stone to their real goal, which was to get an approval, a 00:11:08.160 --> 00:11:10.237 system of pre-approvals in Washington 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:13.197 before you can release new models." and 00:11:13.280 --> 00:11:17.517 he admitted as part of the Q&A that making people very afraid was part of 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:19.597 their strategy. So again, just as much 00:11:19.680 --> 00:11:22.077 of a smoking gun as you could ever get 00:11:22.160 --> 00:11:24.957 um in a in a spaton X. But the reason 00:11:25.040 --> 00:11:26.717 why I think that [snorts] that approach 00:11:26.800 --> 00:11:31.117 is so damaging is that the thing that's 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:35.277 uh really made I think Silicon Valley special over the past several decades is 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:39.997 permissionless innovation. Right? It's that two guys in a garage can just 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:44.477 pursue their idea. you know, maybe they raise some capital from angels or VC 00:11:44.560 --> 00:11:48.717 firms. B basically people who are willing to lose all of their money and 00:11:48.800 --> 00:11:51.837 these are people who, you know, are young founders. They could also be, you 00:11:51.920 --> 00:11:55.117 know, it could be the the the dropout, the future dropout in a dorm room and 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.037 they're able just to pursue their idea. 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:00.077 And um and the only reason that I think 00:12:00.160 --> 00:12:01.757 has happened in Silicon Valley whereas 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:04.077 you look at in you know industries like 00:12:04.160 --> 00:12:09.517 um I don't know like pharma or um you know healthcare or defense or banking or 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.357 these highly regulated industries where you just don't see a lot of startups is 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:15.837 because they're all heavily regulated which means you have to go to Washington 00:12:15.920 --> 00:12:20.317 to get permission to do things. And the thing I've seen in Washington is just 00:12:20.400 --> 00:12:22.637 that, you know, the approvals get set up 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:25.917 for reasons, but those reasons very 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.157 quickly stop mattering. And it just matters like how good your government 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.597 affairs team is at navigating through the bureaucracy and figuring out how to 00:12:33.680 --> 00:12:37.357 get those approvals. And it's not something that your typical startup 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:40.797 founders are going to be good at. Um, it's something that big companies get 00:12:40.880 --> 00:12:43.117 good at because they've got the resources. And that's exactly what 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.597 regulatory capture means. So the the 00:12:45.680 --> 00:12:48.077 whole basis of Silicon Valley success, 00:12:48.160 --> 00:12:51.357 the reason why it's really the the crown 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:55.837 jewel of the American economy and the envy of the rest of the world. We see 00:12:55.920 --> 00:12:59.197 all these attempts by all these other countries to create their own Silicon 00:12:59.280 --> 00:13:02.877 Valley. The the reason that's the case is because of permissionless innovation. 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:05.597 And what is being contemplated and 00:13:05.680 --> 00:13:09.997 discussed and implemented with respect to AI is an approval system for both 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:14.157 software and hardware. Uh and this is not theoretical. This has already been 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:18.317 happening on the the hardware side. One of the last things that the Biden 00:13:18.400 --> 00:13:22.957 administration did the last week the Biden administration was um impose the 00:13:23.040 --> 00:13:25.037 so-called Biden diffusion rule which 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:29.597 requires that every sale of a GPU on 00:13:29.680 --> 00:13:32.477 Earth be licensed by the government 00:13:32.560 --> 00:13:34.637 which is to say pre-approved um unless 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:37.197 it fits into some category of exception 00:13:37.280 --> 00:13:39.677 but basically the overall idea is that 00:13:39.760 --> 00:13:42.077 you know uh compute is now going to be 00:13:42.160 --> 00:13:44.877 um a licensed and and pre-approved um 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:47.837 category. uh we rescended that. Um and 00:13:47.920 --> 00:13:49.677 then on the the software side, like I 00:13:49.760 --> 00:13:52.317 said, I mean the goal very clearly is to 00:13:52.400 --> 00:13:55.277 start with these reporting requirements 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.917 to the government to the states and then 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:02.397 where that ramps up to is you have to go to Washington to get permission uh 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:04.797 before you release a new model. And um 00:14:04.880 --> 00:14:06.557 you know it's this would drastically 00:14:06.640 --> 00:14:09.597 slow down innovation and make America 00:14:09.680 --> 00:14:12.237 less competitive. I mean, you know, 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:16.637 these approvals can take months, they can take years. Uh, when models are when 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:19.597 when a new chip is released every year and we have licenses that have been 00:14:19.680 --> 00:14:23.837 sitting in the hopper for 2 years, I mean, the requests are obsolete by the 00:14:23.920 --> 00:14:27.517 time they finally get approved. And um, that would be even more true with models 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:31.197 where, you know, the the cycle time is, you know, like three three or four 00:14:31.280 --> 00:14:35.197 months for a new model. I mean, you know, and and and what exactly is a 00:14:35.280 --> 00:14:39.677 bureaucracy in Washington going to know about uh this technology that, you know, 00:14:39.760 --> 00:14:42.957 that they're that they're going to be in a good position to to approve it. Any 00:14:43.040 --> 00:14:45.997 event, but this is what is being contemplated right now and I think it 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:50.477 would be a disaster for for Silicon Valley, but also and for innovation, but 00:14:50.560 --> 00:14:52.397 therefore for American competitiveness 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.317 and I think we will lose the AI race uh 00:14:56.400 --> 00:15:00.237 to countries like China if you know if this is if this is the set of rules that 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:02.877 we have. >> Yeah. One of the really diabolical 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:05.437 things about their argument is if they 00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:10.317 really believe there was a monster, then why are they buying GPUs like at a rate 00:15:10.400 --> 00:15:13.597 faster than anybody? And then the other thing that we know from being in the 00:15:13.680 --> 00:15:16.797 industry is their reputation is the 00:15:16.880 --> 00:15:20.637 literally the worst security practices in the entire industry with respect to 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:23.997 their own code. So if you were building this monster, the last thing you'd want 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.997 to do is like leave a bunch of holes around for people to hack it. Um, so 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:31.757 they don't believe anything they're saying. It's like completely made up to 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:35.517 try and maintain their lead by the really psychotic. 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:37.917 >> I think there is um I think it's a heady 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:42.637 drug to basically say that um that you 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:47.437 know we're we're creating this you know new super intelligence that is going to 00:15:47.520 --> 00:15:51.117 could destroy humanity but we're the only ones who are virt virtuous enough 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:54.797 >> to ensure [laughter] >> that this is done correctly. Right. And 00:15:54.880 --> 00:15:58.557 I think that you know >> it's a good recruiting tool. Yeah. join 00:15:58.640 --> 00:16:02.157 the virtuous team. >> Yes. Um I think that's right. 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:04.557 >> The >> but yeah but I think that is definitely 00:16:04.640 --> 00:16:08.957 um you know I I I think of of all the companies that particular one has been 00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:12.477 the most aggressive uh in terms of the regulatory capture 00:16:12.560 --> 00:16:15.197 and pushing these um for these these 00:16:15.280 --> 00:16:20.077 regulations and just I mean let's just bring it up a level just doesn't have to 00:16:20.160 --> 00:16:22.157 be about them. Um there's now something 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:24.397 like 1,200 bills going through state uh 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.997 legislatures right now to regulate AI. 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:31.517 Uh 25% of them are in um the the top 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:33.837 four blue states which are California, 00:16:33.920 --> 00:16:38.797 New York, Colorado, and Illinois. Uh over a 100 measures have already passed. 00:16:38.880 --> 00:16:43.517 Um I think three of them just got signed in the last month in California alone. 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:47.677 I'll tell you just let me tell you what Colorado is actually Colorado, Illinois, 00:16:47.760 --> 00:16:52.317 and California have all done some version of a thing called algorithmic 00:16:52.400 --> 00:16:56.557 discrimination. Um, which I think is it's really 00:16:56.640 --> 00:16:58.557 troubling where where it's headed. Um, 00:16:58.640 --> 00:17:00.877 what what this concept means is that if 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.877 the model produces an output 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:08.717 that has a disparate impact on a protected group, then that is 00:17:08.800 --> 00:17:11.357 algorithmic discrimination. And the list 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.317 of protected groups is um is very long. 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:16.237 It's more than just the the the usual 00:17:16.320 --> 00:17:18.797 ones. So for example, in Colorado, 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.557 they've defined um people who um may not 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:25.837 have English language proficiency as a 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.757 protected group. So I guess if the model says something bad about, you know, 00:17:29.840 --> 00:17:33.197 illegal aliens and that would be, you know, that would basically violate the 00:17:33.280 --> 00:17:36.557 law. I don't know exactly how model 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:41.277 companies are even supposed to comply with this rule. I mean presumably 00:17:41.360 --> 00:17:44.157 presumably discrimination is already illegal. So if you're a business and you 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:46.957 violate the civil rights laws and you engage in discrimination, you're already 00:17:47.040 --> 00:17:48.557 liable for that. You know, there's no 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:51.517 reason, you know, if if you happen to um 00:17:51.600 --> 00:17:56.237 you know make that mistake and you use any kind of tool in the process of doing 00:17:56.320 --> 00:17:59.437 it, we don't really need to go after the tool developer because we can already go 00:17:59.520 --> 00:18:02.237 after the business that's made that 00:18:02.320 --> 00:18:04.637 decision. But the whole purpose of of 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.837 these laws is to get at the tool they're 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:10.797 making. not just the the business that 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:15.597 is using AI liable, they're making the tool developer liable. And I don't even 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:18.797 know how the tool developer is supposed to anticipate this because how do you 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:22.297 know all the ways that your tool is going to be used? How do you 00:18:22.380 --> 00:18:26.157 [clears throat] know that um that this output, you know, especially if the 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.957 output is 100% true and accurate and the 00:18:29.040 --> 00:18:32.477 model is doing its job? um you know then 00:18:32.560 --> 00:18:36.877 how are you supposed to know that that was that output was used as part of a 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:39.277 decision that had a disperate impact? 00:18:39.360 --> 00:18:43.117 Nevertheless, you're liable. And the only way that I can see for model 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:44.557 developers to even attempt to comply 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:47.837 with this is to build a DEI layer into 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:52.957 their models that tries to anticipate could this answer have a disparit 00:18:53.040 --> 00:18:54.477 impact? And if it does, we either can't 00:18:54.560 --> 00:18:56.637 give you the answer. We have to sanitize 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.557 or distort the answer. Uh, and you know, 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.157 you just take this to its logical conclusion and we're back to, you know, 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.757 uh, woke AI, which by the way was a major objective of the Biden 00:19:07.840 --> 00:19:12.477 administration. Um, that that Biden executive order on AI that we rescended 00:19:12.560 --> 00:19:15.997 as part of the Trump administration had something like 20 pages of DEI language 00:19:16.080 --> 00:19:18.557 in it. They were very much trying to promote 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:22.157 >> uh, DEI values, they called it, in models 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:25.197 >> and then we saw what the result of that was. you know, uh, it was, you know, we 00:19:25.280 --> 00:19:28.797 saw the whole black George Washington thing where history was being rewritten 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.437 in real time because somebody built, you 00:19:31.520 --> 00:19:34.317 know, a DEI layer into the model. Um, 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:39.117 and, um, and I, you know, and I, I almost feel like the term woke AI is 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:42.317 insufficient >> to explain what's going on because it 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.357 somehow trivializes it. I mean, what we're really talking about is Orwellian 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.917 AI. You know, we're talking about AI 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:52.477 that um that lies to you, that um that 00:19:52.560 --> 00:19:55.517 distorts an an answer that rewrites 00:19:55.600 --> 00:19:59.677 history in real time to serve a current political agenda of the people who are 00:19:59.760 --> 00:20:02.157 in power. I mean, it's it's um it's very 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:04.957 Orwellian and um and we were definitely 00:20:05.040 --> 00:20:07.437 on that path before President Trump's 00:20:07.520 --> 00:20:09.517 election. Uh it was part of the Biden 00:20:09.600 --> 00:20:14.717 EO. We saw it happen, you know, in in the release of that first Gemini model. 00:20:14.800 --> 00:20:16.477 uh that was not an accident that you 00:20:16.560 --> 00:20:18.797 know that th those distorted outputs 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:22.717 came from somewhere. Um so it was you 00:20:22.800 --> 00:20:26.397 know to just to me this is the the 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.317 biggest risk of AI actually is it's not 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.997 it was not described by James Cameron it was described by George Orwell you know 00:20:34.080 --> 00:20:38.157 it's in my view it's not the Terminator it's 1984 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:40.877 that um you know that as AI eats the 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:43.037 internet and becomes the main way that 00:20:43.120 --> 00:20:46.237 we interact and get our information 00:20:46.320 --> 00:20:49.517 online that it'll be used by the people 00:20:49.600 --> 00:20:52.317 in power to um to control the 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:54.317 information we receive. Um that it'll 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:56.957 contain an ideological bias that 00:20:57.040 --> 00:21:01.917 essentially it'll censor us. All that trust and safety apparatus that was 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.197 created for social media will be ported over to this new world of AI. Mark, I 00:21:05.280 --> 00:21:07.757 know that you've spoken about this quite a bit. I think you're absolutely right 00:21:07.840 --> 00:21:11.917 about that. And then on top of that, you've got the surveillance um issues 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:15.597 where, you know, AI is going to know everything about you. Uh it's going to 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:17.837 be your kind of personal assistant. And 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:21.357 so it's kind of the perfect tool for the 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:24.237 government to um monitor and control 00:21:24.320 --> 00:21:28.877 you. And to me that is by far the biggest risk of of AI. And that's the 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:32.717 thing we should be working towards preventing. And the problem is a lot of 00:21:32.800 --> 00:21:35.517 these regulations that are being whipped 00:21:35.600 --> 00:21:38.237 up by these um fear-mongering 00:21:38.320 --> 00:21:40.077 techniques. They're actually empowering 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:43.277 the government to uh to engage in this 00:21:43.360 --> 00:21:45.997 type of control that I think we should 00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:50.637 all be very afraid of. actually is Sam Alman earlier this week said that in 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:52.877 2028 or by 2028 he expects to have 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.837 automated researchers. I'm I'm curious 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.997 just for your sort of state of of AI sort of model development or just 00:22:00.080 --> 00:22:03.917 progress in general and what do you think are the implications? Some people 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.797 have been sort of you know saying that 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:11.677 you know AGI is two years away sort of the AI 2027 papers the old Ashen Brener 00:22:11.760 --> 00:22:14.717 situational awareness papers. I'm curious kind of what's your reading of 00:22:14.800 --> 00:22:17.757 the of the state of play in terms of a AI development and what what are the 00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:22.157 implications from that? >> So so my sense is that um people are in 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:25.357 Silicon Valley are kind of pulling back from the let's call it imminent AGI 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.557 narrative. Um I saw Andre Karpathy gave 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:33.837 an interview where all of a sudden he's >> he's um rewritten this and he says AGI 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:37.917 is at least a decade away. He's basically saying that um that you know 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:41.357 reinforcement learning has its limits. I mean it's it's very useful. It's the 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:44.717 main paradigm right now that they're making a lot of progress with. But he 00:22:44.800 --> 00:22:48.077 says that actually the way that humans learn is not really through 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.437 reinforcement. We do something a little different, which I think is a good thing 00:22:51.520 --> 00:22:55.757 because it means that human and AI will be synergistic, right? I mean that the 00:22:55.840 --> 00:22:59.517 AI's um understanding if it's based on RL will be a little different than the 00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:02.717 way that we intuit it and and reason. Uh 00:23:02.800 --> 00:23:06.717 but in any event, I I sense more of a pullback from this imminent AGI 00:23:06.800 --> 00:23:10.877 narrative. um you know the idea that AGI is two years away. Of course it's like 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:14.957 kind of unclear what people mean by AGI but it's kind of you know was used in 00:23:15.040 --> 00:23:18.957 this like scary way that um it's kind of this super intelligence that would grow 00:23:19.040 --> 00:23:23.997 beyond our control. Um I feel like people are pulling back from that and 00:23:24.080 --> 00:23:25.837 understanding that yes we're still 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:28.077 making a lot of progress and the 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:31.597 progress is amazing but at the same time 00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:35.277 you know what we mean by intelligence is multifaceted 00:23:35.360 --> 00:23:38.477 and it's not like you know there's progress being made along some 00:23:38.560 --> 00:23:40.557 dimensions but it's not along every 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:42.077 dimension. 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:46.077 Um, and so therefore I think again I 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:49.117 would just I mean I've described actually the situation we're in right 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:53.357 now as a little bit of a Goldilock scenario where um you know the extremes 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:58.877 would be you know you kind of have the the scary Terminator situation imminent 00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.237 super intelligence that'll grow beyond our control on the other the other 00:24:02.320 --> 00:24:05.277 narrative you hear in the press a lot is that we're in a big bubble. So in other 00:24:05.360 --> 00:24:09.037 words the whole thing is fake >> and the media is basically pushing both 00:24:09.120 --> 00:24:12.797 narratives at the same time. >> Yeah. Um, but any event, I think that 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:14.237 the truth is is more in the middle. 00:24:14.320 --> 00:24:15.677 That's kind of a Goldilock scenario 00:24:15.760 --> 00:24:17.757 where um we're seeing a lot of 00:24:17.840 --> 00:24:21.437 innovation. I think the um the progress 00:24:21.520 --> 00:24:24.557 is impressive. Uh it's I think we're 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:29.517 going to see big productivity gains in the economy from this. But uh but I like 00:24:29.600 --> 00:24:32.557 the observations that Bology made recently where he said there's a couple 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:34.797 of things that really struck me. One was 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:38.077 um AI is polytheistic, not monotheistic. 00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:42.877 Meaning what we're seeing is many instead of just one all- knowing all 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:47.517 powerful god. What we're seeing is a bunch of smaller deities more 00:24:47.600 --> 00:24:49.677 specialized models 00:24:49.760 --> 00:24:52.797 um you know uh you know it's it's not 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:57.037 that sort of um we're not on that kind of recursive self-improvement 00:24:57.120 --> 00:25:00.797 uh track just yet but you know we're seeing many different kinds of models 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.117 make progress in different areas. Um and 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:08.237 then the other the other um one was just his observation that AI was um was 00:25:08.320 --> 00:25:11.677 middle to middle whereas humans are end to end and therefore the relationship is 00:25:11.760 --> 00:25:16.077 is pretty synergistic and um I think that's right. I mean I think I think all 00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:19.997 th those observations are like resonate with me in terms of where we're at right 00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:23.277 now. >> Yeah. And that that that's very consistent with what we're seeing as 00:25:23.360 --> 00:25:26.477 well where um you know ideas that we 00:25:26.560 --> 00:25:29.517 thought would for sure get subsumed by 00:25:29.600 --> 00:25:33.677 the big models are becoming amazingly 00:25:33.760 --> 00:25:36.157 differentiated businesses. Um just 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:40.077 because the fat tail of the universe is 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:43.757 very fat and you need really kind of 00:25:43.840 --> 00:25:48.077 specific understanding of certain scenarios to build an effective model 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:52.077 and that that's just how it's going. you know, no model has just like figured out 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.517 how to do everything. >> Yeah. I mean, and the models work best 00:25:55.600 --> 00:25:58.717 when they have context, you know, and um 00:25:58.800 --> 00:26:02.557 the more I mean, we've all seen this, the more general your prompt, the less 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:04.797 likely it is that you're going to be 00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:07.597 able to um you know, get get a great 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:10.717 response. And um I don't know, if you 00:26:10.800 --> 00:26:14.157 tell the AI uh you know, uh something 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:19.837 very general like um what business can I create to make a billion dollars? it 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:23.117 it's not going to give you something actionable. You know, you have to get 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:27.197 very specific about what you're trying to do and it has to have access to 00:26:27.280 --> 00:26:28.637 relevant data and then it can give you 00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:32.397 some specific answers to to um to a 00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:34.477 prompt. Um and I think this is, you 00:26:34.560 --> 00:26:39.597 know, partly Bali's point, which is, you know, the the the AI does not come up 00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:42.317 with its own objective. You know, it needs to be prompted. It needs to be 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.237 told what to do. We've seen no evidence 00:26:44.320 --> 00:26:46.717 that that's at this stage that that's 00:26:46.800 --> 00:26:49.517 changing. we're still at step zero in 00:26:49.600 --> 00:26:53.277 terms of AI kind of, you know, somehow 00:26:53.360 --> 00:26:58.077 coming up with its own objective. And um uh and as a result of that, you know, 00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:00.957 the model has to be prompted and then it gives you an output and that output has 00:27:01.040 --> 00:27:04.797 to be validated. You have to somehow make sure it's correct because models 00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:09.597 can still be wrong. Um and more likely you have to iterate a few times because 00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:13.197 it doesn't give you exactly what you want. So now you kind of reprompt and 00:27:13.280 --> 00:27:14.397 we've all had this experience, right? 00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:17.117 you this is why like the chat the chat 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:21.837 um interface is so is so necessary is because it takes you a few times to kind 00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:26.477 of iterate to get to the output that actually has value for you. Um again you 00:27:26.560 --> 00:27:30.237 know the humans are antenn and the the um the AI is middle to middle. I just 00:27:30.320 --> 00:27:33.757 don't you know we haven't seen any evidence that that fundamental dynamic 00:27:33.840 --> 00:27:38.557 is is changing. Um I mean I think you know we're at the I mean I'd love to 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:39.517 hear what you guys think about this. 00:27:39.600 --> 00:27:44.317 this. I mean, we're obviously at the outset of of agents and um you know, an 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:47.037 agents you can give an objective to and then they'll be able to take tasks on 00:27:47.120 --> 00:27:50.797 your behalf, but I suspect that the agents will work better as well when 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:52.957 they have a much more narrow context. 00:27:53.040 --> 00:27:54.877 They're much less likely to go off the 00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:57.357 rails, start going in weird directions. 00:27:57.440 --> 00:28:02.317 If you give it like a very broad, you know, a very broad task, it's just not 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.157 likely to completely figure it out before it needs human intervention. But 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:09.757 if you give it something very narrow to do, then it's much more likely to be 00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:12.957 successful. Um, so, you know, I would 00:28:13.040 --> 00:28:16.557 just guess like, okay, just you tell the 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:20.317 AI, um, you know, sell my product. You 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.757 know, it's it's very unlikely that it's just going to figure out like what that 00:28:23.840 --> 00:28:26.237 means and how to do that. But if you're 00:28:26.320 --> 00:28:30.317 a sales rep and you're using the AI to 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.677 help you, there's probably very specific tasks that you can tell it to do and it 00:28:33.760 --> 00:28:37.677 would be much more successful doing that. So I I just tend to think I mean 00:28:37.760 --> 00:28:40.957 this also kind of speaks to the whole job loss narrative. I just think that 00:28:41.040 --> 00:28:43.037 this is going to be a very synergistic 00:28:43.120 --> 00:28:45.757 tool for a long time. I don't think it's 00:28:45.840 --> 00:28:49.197 going to wipe out um human human jobs. I 00:28:49.280 --> 00:28:52.397 don't think the need for human cognition 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.877 is going away. Um it's something that you know we'll we'll all use to kind of 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:01.437 get this big productivity boost at least for the foreseeable future. I mean, I 00:29:01.520 --> 00:29:03.677 don't know. I don't know if anyone can any of us can predict what's going to 00:29:03.760 --> 00:29:07.037 happen beyond five or 10 years, but I mean, that's just what I'm seeing right 00:29:07.120 --> 00:29:11.197 now. I don't know. I'm curious what what are you guys seeing this front? 00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:14.157 >> Yeah, generally consistent with that, things are improving. So, like on 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:18.397 agents, um the the early agents, the longer the running task, the more they 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:23.437 would go like completely bananas and off off the rails. People are working on 00:29:23.520 --> 00:29:27.037 that. I do think like everything's working better 00:29:27.120 --> 00:29:30.077 in a context. I at least from what we've 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:33.197 seen that will continue and even you 00:29:33.280 --> 00:29:35.357 know to your point on like super smart 00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:39.357 models there's like a dozen video models 00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:43.037 out there and there's not one that's the 00:29:43.120 --> 00:29:46.797 best at everything or even close to the best at everything. There's like 00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:49.517 literally a dozen that are all the best 00:29:49.600 --> 00:29:53.517 at one thing. Um, and 00:29:53.600 --> 00:29:57.517 which is a little surprising at least to me because you would think, you know, 00:29:57.600 --> 00:29:59.757 just the sheer size of the data would be 00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:04.157 an advantage, but even that um hasn't 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:07.597 quite proven out. Uh, you know, it it is 00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:09.197 like depending on what you want. Do you 00:30:09.280 --> 00:30:12.237 want a meme? Do you want a movie? Do you 00:30:12.320 --> 00:30:15.997 want, you know, an ad? Like it's all 00:30:16.080 --> 00:30:20.877 very very different. And I think this gets to your main point which is and 00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:23.997 Mark Zuckerberg said something that I really liked. He's like intelligence is 00:30:24.080 --> 00:30:27.037 not life. Um and these things that we 00:30:27.120 --> 00:30:28.877 associate 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:33.597 with life um like we have an objective. 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:37.197 Um we have free will. We're sentient. uh 00:30:37.280 --> 00:30:42.477 th those just aren't part of a mathematical model that is you know 00:30:42.560 --> 00:30:46.157 searching through a distribution and figuring out an answer or even you know 00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:48.877 a model that you know through a 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:50.717 reinforcement learning technique can 00:30:50.800 --> 00:30:54.397 kind of improve its logic. So it's just 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:58.557 like the the the comparison to humans I think is it just 00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:02.637 falls short in a lot of ways is what we're seeing you know we're just different 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:06.317 >> you know then the models are very good at things they're better than humans at 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:09.997 things already many things >> the other thing I'd bring up related to 00:31:10.080 --> 00:31:14.557 this which is sort of this which I think is a little orthogonal but also quite 00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.637 related which is sort of is is the future of the world going to be one or a 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:21.837 small number of companies or for that matter governments or super AIs that 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:25.197 kind of own and control everything. Um, and sort of all the value rolls up into 00:31:25.280 --> 00:31:27.997 a handful of of entities and and you know, and there you get into this 00:31:28.080 --> 00:31:30.237 there's like the hyper capitalist version of it where a few companies make 00:31:30.320 --> 00:31:32.957 all the money or there's like the hyper communist version of it where you have 00:31:33.040 --> 00:31:34.877 total state control or whatever. 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:38.957 >> Um, you know, or is this a technology that's going to diffuse out um and be 00:31:39.040 --> 00:31:42.797 like in everybody's hands um and be a tool of empowerment and creativity um 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:46.477 and individual effort, you know, expressiveness and um and um and as a 00:31:46.560 --> 00:31:49.357 tool for basically everybody to use. I think one of the really striking things 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:52.877 about this period of time and you being in this role is that this this is the 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:57.117 period in which the scenario number two is I think very clearly playing out 00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:01.197 which is that this is the time in which AI is actually hyperdemocratizing. 00:32:01.280 --> 00:32:04.557 I think actually AI is actually hyperdemocratized. It has spread to more 00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:07.917 individuals um uh both in the country and around the world uh in the shortest 00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:10.637 period of time than any new technology I think in history. you know, we're we're 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:13.837 it's something like 600 million, you know, users today on on rapidly on the 00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:17.037 way to a billion rapidly on the way to to 5 billion, you know, kind of across 00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:20.317 all the all the consumer products. And then and then the best AIS in the world 00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:21.997 are are in the consumer products, right? 00:32:22.080 --> 00:32:25.757 Um and so if you use the if you use, you know, current day Chad GPT or Grock or 00:32:25.840 --> 00:32:29.437 any of these things like, you know, I I I can't spend more money, you know, uh 00:32:29.520 --> 00:32:32.637 and uh and and get access to better AI, it's it's it's in the consumer products. 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:36.477 And so just in practice, what you have like playing out in real time is this 00:32:36.560 --> 00:32:39.757 technology is going to be in everybody's hands. Um, and everybody is going to be 00:32:39.840 --> 00:32:42.237 able to use it to optim, you know, optimize the things that they do. Have 00:32:42.320 --> 00:32:45.757 it be a thought partner. Have it be, you know, somebody, you know, a a a um, you 00:32:45.840 --> 00:32:48.797 know, an assistant for for for building companies, you know, starting companies 00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:52.717 or creating art or, you know, doing all the things that people want to do. Um, 00:32:52.800 --> 00:32:55.837 you know, my wife was just using it this morning to design a new uh an 00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:58.697 entrepreneurship curriculum for our 10-year-old, right? Um, you know, 00:32:58.780 --> 00:33:01.037 [laughter] right? Like, you know, like literally 00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:04.077 it's like, "Oh, wow. That's like a really great idea." Um, and it took her 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:06.877 a couple hours and she has like a full curriculum for him to be able to start 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:09.437 his first video game company and here's all the different skills that he needs 00:33:09.520 --> 00:33:12.397 to learn and here's all the resources and and like that's just a level of 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:16.157 capability. I mean to to to you know to have done that without without these 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:19.517 modern consumer AI tools you know you'd have to go like hire a you know special 00:33:19.600 --> 00:33:21.997 ed education specialist or something [snorts] you know which is basically 00:33:22.080 --> 00:33:23.517 impossible um to do that kind of thing. 00:33:23.600 --> 00:33:26.317 So and and you know everybody has these stories now in their lives among people 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:30.477 they know. So we're we have the I think we have like a lot of proof that the the 00:33:30.560 --> 00:33:32.957 track that this on is that this is going to be in everybody's hands and in fact 00:33:33.040 --> 00:33:35.997 that is going to be a really good thing and and and I think and I think David I 00:33:36.080 --> 00:33:39.357 think you guys are really playing a key role in making making it happen. 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:42.157 >> I think it's so important that this um 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.717 technology remain decentralized because 00:33:44.800 --> 00:33:49.277 the kind of the Orwellian concern is kind of the ultimate centralization 00:33:49.360 --> 00:33:52.877 >> and fortunately so far what we're seeing in the market is that it's hyper 00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.037 competitive. There's five major model 00:33:55.120 --> 00:33:58.237 companies all making huge investments. 00:33:58.320 --> 00:34:02.717 Um, and the uh the the benchmark the the 00:34:02.800 --> 00:34:07.437 the model performance the evaluations are relatively clustered and there's a 00:34:07.520 --> 00:34:11.437 lot of leaprogging going on. So, you know, Grock releases a new model, it 00:34:11.520 --> 00:34:15.517 leaprogs CH GBT and but then Chad GBT releases something new, they they leap 00:34:15.600 --> 00:34:18.237 frog. So, they're all like very competitive and close to each other and 00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:20.877 I think that's uh that's a good thing. 00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:22.717 And it's the opposite of what was 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.117 predicted, you know, through this like 00:34:25.200 --> 00:34:27.917 imminent AGI story where the the the 00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.317 sort of the the storytelling there was 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:34.477 that one model would get a lead and then 00:34:34.560 --> 00:34:38.317 it would direct its own intelligence to making itself better and then so 00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:40.877 therefore its lead would get bigger and bigger and you kind of get this 00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:44.957 recursive self-improvement and pretty soon you're off to the the singularity. 00:34:45.040 --> 00:34:48.637 And um and and we haven't really seen that, you know, we haven't seen one 00:34:48.720 --> 00:34:53.837 model completely pull away in terms of capabilities. Um and I think that's a a 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:57.037 good thing. And so Eric to your point about this narrative about the virtual 00:34:57.120 --> 00:34:59.917 AI researcher that that was one variant 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.397 of this sort of um imminent AGI 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:06.157 narrative is that the steps would be um 00:35:06.240 --> 00:35:11.357 you know models get smarter then models create virtual AI researcher and then 00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:14.397 you get [snorts] a million virtual AI researchers and then you know it's 00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:16.557 singularity and I think just the slight 00:35:16.640 --> 00:35:19.757 of hand in that is um what is a virtual 00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:21.997 AI researcher right it's like a very 00:35:22.080 --> 00:35:24.957 easy thing to say, but like what does 00:35:25.040 --> 00:35:30.077 that really mean? And you know, top toy's point about um you know, AI is 00:35:30.160 --> 00:35:34.397 still middle to middle. It doesn't it's not end to end. So if an AI researcher 00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:38.237 is endtoend, there's like things that has to you things the person has to 00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:40.637 figure out. They've got to set their own objective. They've got to be able to 00:35:40.720 --> 00:35:44.077 pivot in ways that AI can't. Um you 00:35:44.160 --> 00:35:47.837 know, like is it really is that really feasible to create a virtual AI 00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:52.317 researcher? I think there's like parts of the job that you know AI could get 00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:53.997 really good at or even better than 00:35:54.080 --> 00:35:57.117 humans, but probably that tool has to be 00:35:57.200 --> 00:36:00.717 used by a human AI researcher. So I 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:03.917 guess the the the the argument I suspect 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:07.357 could be um sort of teological in the 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:10.077 sense that you might need AGI to create 00:36:10.160 --> 00:36:14.397 a virtual AI researcher as opposed to the other way around. And if that's the 00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:18.397 case, you don't just, you know, you're not going to get like singularity. So, 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:22.877 I'm a little bit skeptical of that claim. Um, you know, we'll see. Sam, 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:27.517 would Sam say he could do it in 2028? I mean, I guess we'll see. And 00:36:27.600 --> 00:36:30.957 >> I I think all those claims tend to be like recruiting ideas as [laughter] 00:36:31.040 --> 00:36:32.877 opposed to actual predictions. 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.317 >> He's he's not the first to to mention that idea. Other other model companies 00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:40.717 have been promoting it, but um yeah, Leopold mentioned that too. um you know, 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:42.637 we'll we'll we'll see. But I suspect 00:36:42.720 --> 00:36:45.037 that that's what's wrong with that 00:36:45.120 --> 00:36:49.117 argument is that virtual AI researcher 00:36:49.200 --> 00:36:52.397 um requires AGI and so the idea that 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:56.877 you're going to get AGI through a virtual AI researcher is um is 00:36:56.960 --> 00:36:59.277 backwards, but we'll see, you know, we'll see. 00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:01.357 >> David, you've also you and the administration, I think, have also been 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:04.477 very supportive of open source AI, which I think also dovtales into this in terms 00:37:04.560 --> 00:37:06.397 of like the market being very competitive. 00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:09.197 >> Yes. Yes. Do you want to spend a moment on what you guys have been able to do on 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:11.277 that and how you think about it? 00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:15.277 >> Yeah, I mean so so just to the you open source is very important because I just 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:20.077 think it's synonymous with um you know freedom I mean software freedom. You 00:37:20.160 --> 00:37:24.077 basically could run your own models on your own hardware and retain control 00:37:24.160 --> 00:37:28.077 over your own information. And by the way, this is what enterprises 00:37:28.160 --> 00:37:30.237 typically do all the time is, you know, 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:35.677 um about half the global data center market is, you know, is onrem, meaning 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.477 enterprises and governments create their own data centers. They don't go to the 00:37:38.560 --> 00:37:41.997 big clouds. And by the way, I've got nothing against the hyperscalers, but 00:37:42.080 --> 00:37:45.437 just, you know, people like to run their 00:37:45.520 --> 00:37:50.077 own um you know, own data centers and you know, maintain control over their 00:37:50.160 --> 00:37:53.757 own data and that kind of thing. And I think that will be true for consumers to 00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:57.677 some degree as well. Um so I do think it's an important area that we should 00:37:57.760 --> 00:37:59.517 you know want to encourage and promote. 00:37:59.600 --> 00:38:02.157 The irony right now in the market is 00:38:02.240 --> 00:38:06.637 that um is that uh the best open source 00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:12.237 models are Chinese. Uh and it's it's sort of a quirk, right? It's it's the 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.277 opposite of what you'd expect. You'd expect like the American system would 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:19.677 promote open and somehow the Chinese system would promote closed. That has 00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:22.077 kind of um you know ended up being a 00:38:22.160 --> 00:38:23.917 little backwards. Um, I think there's 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:26.877 like good reasons for it. Uh, it could 00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:31.917 just be it could just be kind of a historical accident, the fact that the 00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.117 Deep Seek founder was like very committed to open source and kind of 00:38:35.200 --> 00:38:38.957 just kind of that like got things started that way or it could be part of 00:38:39.040 --> 00:38:42.477 a deliberate strategy. Uh, if you're China and you're trying to catch up, 00:38:42.560 --> 00:38:45.517 open source is a really good way to do that because you get all the non-aligned 00:38:45.600 --> 00:38:49.517 developers to want to help your project which they can't do if you know with a 00:38:49.600 --> 00:38:51.197 closed project. So, it's a great 00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:53.677 strategy for catching up. And then also 00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:56.557 if you think that your business model 00:38:56.640 --> 00:38:58.877 you know as a company or as a country is 00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:00.797 let's say scale manufacturing of 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:04.237 hardware then you would want the the 00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:07.997 software part to be free or cheap because it's your compliment right so 00:39:08.080 --> 00:39:12.317 you try to commoditize your compliment and I don't know whether it's by 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:15.837 accident or part of design that that seems to be what the Chinese strategy 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:17.917 has been I think that the the right 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:23.277 answer for the US in this is to you know tocourage urge our own open source. I 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:27.597 mean, we I think it'd be a great thing if we saw more open- source initiatives 00:39:27.680 --> 00:39:29.037 get get going. I guess there's one 00:39:29.120 --> 00:39:31.917 promising one called um Reflection, 00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:36.317 which um was founded by former um you 00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:41.277 know, engineers from uh from Google DeepMind. Uh so I hope we see more open 00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:44.957 source innovation in in the west. But um but look, I think it's it's very 00:39:45.040 --> 00:39:49.037 important. is critical and like I said I in my view it's synonymous with with 00:39:49.120 --> 00:39:52.557 freedom and it's definitely not something we want to suppress. Now just 00:39:52.640 --> 00:39:57.117 back to the the the closed ecosystem for a second. It's true we have five major 00:39:57.200 --> 00:40:01.357 competitors there and they're all spending a lot of money. I do worry a 00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:05.357 little bit that at some point some point in time that the model consolid not the 00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:10.157 model the um the market consolidates and we end up with you know like a monopoly 00:40:10.240 --> 00:40:13.757 or duopoly or something like that as we've seen in other technology markets. 00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:16.557 We saw this with search and you know and 00:40:16.640 --> 00:40:21.517 so on down the line. And I just think that it would be good if this market 00:40:21.600 --> 00:40:23.357 stayed more competitive than just one or 00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:28.157 two winners. Um and um I I don't I don't 00:40:28.240 --> 00:40:31.197 really know what to do about that. I'm just making that observation. And I I do 00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:33.277 think that having open source as an 00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:36.237 option always then ensures that even if 00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:41.517 the market does consolidate that you do have an alternative and it's an 00:40:41.600 --> 00:40:42.877 alternative that's more fully within 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.197 your control as opposed to a large 00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:49.037 corporation or um you know or or the 00:40:49.120 --> 00:40:54.397 deep state you know working with that corporation as we saw in the Twitter 00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:58.637 files that you know the deep state was working with all these um you know 00:40:58.720 --> 00:41:03.837 social media companies um you know in in implementing much more widespread 00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:07.917 censorship than I think we any of us thought possible. So 00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:10.877 uh we've seen evidence in the past and again in the social networking space 00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:13.277 about um about how the government could 00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:16.157 get involved in nefarious ways and it 00:41:16.240 --> 00:41:18.637 would be good to have alternatives so 00:41:18.720 --> 00:41:22.477 that so you know to to prevent that or 00:41:22.560 --> 00:41:26.477 to to make it less likely that that scenario comes about with AI. 00:41:26.560 --> 00:41:29.757 >> Yeah. Well, as you know, we we and others uh um are very aggressively 00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:33.517 investing um in new new model companies of many kinds, including new foundation 00:41:33.600 --> 00:41:36.557 model companies, and then also, you know, as you're probably there are a 00:41:36.640 --> 00:41:39.677 whole bunch of new open source efforts um you know, that are not yet public 00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:42.717 that, you know, hopefully will bear fruit over the next couple years. So, I 00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:46.557 think that at least in the in the medium term, I think we're looking at an an 00:41:46.640 --> 00:41:49.117 explosion of model development as opposed to consolidation and then, you 00:41:49.200 --> 00:41:50.717 know, we'll we'll see what happens from there. 00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:53.917 >> Yeah, that's really good to hear. I mean I think you know if we assess kind of 00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:57.917 the the state of the AI race um visv China 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.077 >> uh this is the only area where we appear 00:42:00.160 --> 00:42:04.717 to be behind is in this area of open source models um I I think you know if 00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:07.757 you don't care whether it's open or closed I think we have the lead 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:12.157 >> uh I think our top models uh model companies are ahead of the top Chinese 00:42:12.240 --> 00:42:16.237 companies although they're quite good but uh but just this narrow area of open 00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.517 source seems to be where they have an advantage so it's great to hear that you 00:42:19.600 --> 00:42:24.637 guys are seeing >> you know a lot more um efforts um coming to market. 00:42:24.720 --> 00:42:25.997 >> Yeah. Yeah, there's more coming. 00:42:26.080 --> 00:42:28.397 >> Yeah. Good. >> Yeah. Yeah. Definitely more coming. 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:32.797 >> The um Peter Teal quipped, you know, many years ago that he thought, you 00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:36.957 know, crypto would be libertarian or decentralizing and that uh AI would be 00:42:37.040 --> 00:42:39.917 communist or or centralizing. And I think one thing we've perhaps we've 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:43.277 learned that uh technology isn't deterministic and that the there are set 00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:47.037 of choices that determine whether these technologies are decentralizing or or 00:42:47.120 --> 00:42:51.117 centralizing. And um maybe we could segue use that as a segue to go deeper 00:42:51.200 --> 00:42:54.957 into the the state of the race with China. Uh maybe David, you could lay out 00:42:55.040 --> 00:42:58.637 the sort of the what's most important to to get right. You've already indicated, 00:42:58.720 --> 00:43:02.637 you know, open source is one example. Um you know, you you alluded earlier to 00:43:02.720 --> 00:43:06.797 sort of our strategy as it relates to chips. Um you know, some people say that 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:09.757 yes, it's it's a good idea to do what we're doing because it'll you know, 00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:12.317 limit domestic semiconductor production. 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:15.357 Other people say, "Oh, well, you know, some of these companies say chips are 00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:18.877 their biggest, you know, limiting factors and so are we enabling them in 00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:22.397 some way?" May why don't you talk about the sort of state of play and then our 00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:23.437 strategy? 00:43:23.520 --> 00:43:26.077 >> Yeah. So, you know, when we talk about 00:43:26.160 --> 00:43:30.637 winning the AI race, um, sometimes we say we're in a race against China, 00:43:30.720 --> 00:43:33.117 sometimes we just leave it a little bit more vague because I I don't think we 00:43:33.200 --> 00:43:35.917 should become overly obsessed with our 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:40.237 uh competitors or adversaries. I think whether we win or not will mostly have 00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:41.757 to do with the decisions we make about 00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:44.477 our own technology ecosystem, not about, 00:43:44.560 --> 00:43:47.677 you know, what we do v visav them. And 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:50.877 so the president in in his July 23rd 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:52.877 speech on AI policy, I think mentioned a 00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:55.677 few of the key pillars of of, you know, 00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:59.997 of of how we win this this AI race. Um, and by the way, I'm not saying it ever 00:44:00.080 --> 00:44:01.917 ends. This it might be an infinite game, 00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.077 but um but we want to be in the lead at 00:44:04.160 --> 00:44:07.357 least. And um and I I I I do think that 00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:11.677 um there could be a period of time where like you know take the internet where I 00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:15.517 mean the internet's still going on. It's happened but we understand that kind of 00:44:15.600 --> 00:44:19.437 who the winners are is kind of baked now. Um so there could be a period of 00:44:19.520 --> 00:44:22.797 time in which you know it's kind of baked who the the winners in AI are. But 00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:27.357 um in any event um you know in terms of how we win this race um you know I 00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:28.477 mentioned a few of the key pillars. 00:44:28.560 --> 00:44:31.917 Number one is innovation. You know it's very important to support the private 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.717 sector because they're the ones who do the innovation. We're not going to 00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:38.877 regulate our way to beating our our adversary. We just have to out innovate 00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:41.677 them. Um I mentioned I I think right now 00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:45.277 the biggest obstacle is the the the um 00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:47.757 frenzy of overregulation happening at 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:52.797 the states. I desperately think we need um a federal a single federal standard. 00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:56.237 Uh a patchwork of 50 different regulatory regimes can be incredibly 00:44:56.320 --> 00:45:00.237 burdensome to comply with. I think even the people who support a lot of this 00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:03.837 regulation are now acknowledging that we're going to need a federal standard. 00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:08.237 Uh the problem is that when they talk about it, what they really want is to 00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:11.437 federalize the most ownorous version of all the state laws 00:45:11.520 --> 00:45:15.037 >> and that can't be allowed either. So, you know, there's going to be a battle 00:45:15.120 --> 00:45:17.917 to come. I think as the states um become 00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:22.797 more and more unwieldy, you know, as it becomes more of a trap for startups that 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:26.077 they now have to report into 50 different states at 50 different times 00:45:26.160 --> 00:45:29.117 to 50 different agencies about 50 different things, people are going to 00:45:29.200 --> 00:45:32.397 realize this is crazy and they're going to try to federalize it. And then the 00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:35.837 question, I think, is whether we get preeemption heavy or preeemption light. 00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:40.237 Um you know, do we do we get a I think everyone's gonna ultimately be in favor 00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:44.237 of a of a single federal standard. Um because I think one of America's 00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:48.557 greatest advantages is that we have a large national market right not 50 00:45:48.640 --> 00:45:52.477 separate state markets like kind of you know Europe before the EU wasn't 00:45:52.560 --> 00:45:55.597 competitive at all on the internet because it's 30 different regulatory 00:45:55.680 --> 00:45:59.197 regimes and so you know if you're a European startup and even if you won 00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:03.677 your country it didn't get you very far because you still had to like you know 00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:06.717 figure out how to compete in 30 other countries before you could even win 00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:10.157 Europe and then meanwhile your American competitors won the entire American 00:46:10.240 --> 00:46:14.237 market and ready to scale scale up globally. So the fact that we have a 00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:17.677 single national market is just fundamental to our competitiveness and 00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:19.517 it's why you know winners in America 00:46:19.600 --> 00:46:25.037 then go on to kind of win the whole world. So we have to preserve that and I 00:46:25.120 --> 00:46:27.677 think we will eventually get some some federal preeemption. I think the 00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:29.597 question will just again be whether we 00:46:29.680 --> 00:46:32.797 preempt heavy or preempt light. Um 00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:36.797 second big area is infrastructure you know and energy you know we want to help 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:42.237 this this um amazing infrastructure boom that's happening and the biggest I think 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:46.237 limiting factor there is just going to be around energy uh I think President 00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:49.197 Trump's been incredibly far-sighted in this I mean he was talking about drill 00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:53.277 baby drill many years ago um he understood that energy is the basis for 00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:57.357 everything it's definitely the basis for this AI boom and we want to basically 00:46:57.440 --> 00:46:59.837 get all of these unnecessary regulations 00:46:59.920 --> 00:47:01.837 the permitting restrictions, a lot of 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:05.997 the nimism out of the way so that um AI 00:47:06.080 --> 00:47:09.517 companies can build data centers and get power for them. And we can talk about 00:47:09.600 --> 00:47:10.797 that more if you want, but I think that 00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:15.037 that's a second really huge um uh part 00:47:15.120 --> 00:47:18.477 of the of what it's going to take to win the AI race. And then the third area is 00:47:18.560 --> 00:47:21.037 is around exports. And maybe this has 00:47:21.120 --> 00:47:24.317 been the most controversial one. Um and 00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:28.077 it really speaks to the cultural divide between Silicon Valley and and 00:47:28.160 --> 00:47:31.597 Washington. So I think all of us in Silicon Valley 00:47:31.680 --> 00:47:35.517 understand that the way that you win a technology race is by building the 00:47:35.600 --> 00:47:40.077 biggest ecosystem, right? You get the most developers building on your your 00:47:40.160 --> 00:47:43.837 platform. You get the most apps in your app store. Everyone just uses you. I 00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:48.077 mean, you know, those are the companies that typically win are the ones that get 00:47:48.160 --> 00:47:52.077 all the users, all the developers, and so on. And so we in Silicon Valley have 00:47:52.160 --> 00:47:55.517 a partnership mentality. You know, we want to just publish the APIs and get 00:47:55.600 --> 00:47:59.037 everyone using them. Uh Washington has a different mentality, right? It's much 00:47:59.120 --> 00:48:03.357 more of a command and control. We want you to get approved. Um, you know, we 00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:04.797 kind of want to hoard this technology. 00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:07.757 Only America should have it. Um, and and 00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:12.077 this this was really fundamental, I think, to the Biden diffusion rule where 00:48:12.160 --> 00:48:15.677 the the point of that rule is to stop diffusion, right? Diffusion is a is a is 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:18.397 a bad word. >> Um, but in Silicon Valley, we understand 00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:22.797 that diffusion is how you win. [snorts] >> Um, and now I mean, I don't think we 00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:25.757 ever called it diffusion before. That was a new word for me. We just called it 00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:28.557 usage. >> Yeah. Uh but we understand that like 00:48:28.640 --> 00:48:29.997 getting the most users is how you win. 00:48:30.080 --> 00:48:32.637 Um so there's like a fundamental culture 00:48:32.720 --> 00:48:35.837 clash going on right now. And um you 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:40.397 know the way I kind of parse it is that what we decide to sell to China is 00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:43.837 always going to be comp uh complicated because you know they're our competitor 00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:48.717 and our adversary and there's the whole potential dual use and so the the the 00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:52.797 question of what you sell to China is is nuanced. Um but what we sell to the rest 00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:55.917 of the world that should be an easy question which is we should want to do 00:48:56.000 --> 00:48:59.117 business with the rest of the world. We should want to have the largest 00:48:59.200 --> 00:49:04.157 ecosystem possible. Uh and every country we exclude from our technology alliance 00:49:04.240 --> 00:49:06.637 we're basically driving into the arms of China and it makes their ecosystem 00:49:06.720 --> 00:49:09.197 bigger. And what we saw under the the 00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:12.557 the the Biden years is that they were 00:49:12.640 --> 00:49:15.517 constantly pushing other countries uh 00:49:15.600 --> 00:49:17.677 into the arms of China. Starting with 00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:23.277 the Gulf States in um October of 2023, basically the the Gulf States, you I'm 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:26.477 talking about countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE, long-standing US allies, 00:49:26.560 --> 00:49:30.797 they weren't allowed to buy chips from the US. In other words, they weren't 00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:36.157 allowed to set up data centers and participate in in AI. And um you know 00:49:36.240 --> 00:49:40.237 here we are telling all these countries that you know AI is fundamental to the 00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:43.757 future. It's going to be the basis of the economy and yet we're excluding you 00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:47.917 from participating in the American tech stack. Well you know it's obvious what 00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:51.597 they're going to do. You know the only play we're giving them is to go to China 00:49:51.680 --> 00:49:55.357 and so you know all of these rules basically just create pent-up demand for 00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:58.557 for um for Chinese chips and models and 00:49:58.640 --> 00:50:01.197 it creates a Huawei belt and road. And 00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:03.837 we are hearing that um that Huawei is 00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:08.077 starting to uh proliferate or diffuse um 00:50:08.160 --> 00:50:12.397 in the Middle East and in Southeast Asia. And I just think it's a really 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:14.957 counterproductive strategy. We're completely shooting ourselves in the 00:50:15.040 --> 00:50:18.877 foot. And like the the greatest irony is 00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:22.237 that the people who've been pushing this strategy of driving all these countries 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:24.557 into China's arms have called themselves 00:50:24.640 --> 00:50:29.437 China hawks. You know, as if what they're doing is uh is hurting China. 00:50:29.520 --> 00:50:32.957 No, it's like it's it's helping China. I mean, it's basically just handing them 00:50:33.040 --> 00:50:35.997 markets. And our products are better. Uh 00:50:36.080 --> 00:50:40.397 but if you don't give these countries a choice to buy the American tech stack, 00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:42.477 obviously they're going to go with the 00:50:42.560 --> 00:50:45.037 Chinese tech stack. And um you know, 00:50:45.120 --> 00:50:49.117 China China's out there promoting um you 00:50:49.200 --> 00:50:53.917 know, uh Deepseek models and Huawei chips and they're not like ringing their 00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:55.757 hands about 00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:58.877 you know whether um you know exporting 00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:02.957 chips for a data center in UAE is going to like create the Terminator and you 00:51:03.040 --> 00:51:06.957 know all these like ridiculous narratives that we've invented to you 00:51:07.040 --> 00:51:12.237 know reasons we've invented not to sell American technology to our friends. So, 00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:15.757 um, you know, that that has ended up being, I think, surprisingly maybe the 00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:20.797 most controversial part of what we've advocated for. Um, but, uh, but there 00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:23.757 you have it. So, in any event, I'll stop there. Those are kind of some of the 00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:26.797 major pillars of what we've been advocating. 00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:28.077 >> Should we should we go deeper on sort of 00:51:28.160 --> 00:51:31.277 the infrastructure energy point in terms of what it's really going to take to to 00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:34.877 to get enough capacity or what's what's most important in that second bullet you 00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:38.557 were talking about? Yeah. I mean, well, so I mean, there there are definitely 00:51:38.640 --> 00:51:42.157 people who are much more knowledgeable about energy than I am and are experts 00:51:42.240 --> 00:51:46.797 in the space, but here's what I've been able to kind of divine is um so first of 00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:51.037 all, the administration, President Trump has signed multiple executive orders to 00:51:51.120 --> 00:51:52.797 uh to allow for nuclear to make 00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:54.877 permitting easier. We've even freed up 00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:58.637 federal land uh for for data centers to 00:51:58.720 --> 00:52:02.157 hopefully trying to help get around some of these state and local restrictions. 00:52:02.240 --> 00:52:05.197 And obviously the president has made it 00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:08.637 a lot easier to um to stand up new um uh 00:52:08.720 --> 00:52:11.277 energy projects uh power generation all 00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:13.837 that kind of stuff. Um I still think 00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:16.877 though that we have um a growing nimi 00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:21.677 problem at the state and local level uh in in the US that that is becoming a 00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:26.797 little bit worrisome. uh and um and uh and if if we don't 00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:30.877 figure out a way to to address it, then it could really slow down uh the build 00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:33.517 out of this infrastructure. Um in terms 00:52:33.600 --> 00:52:38.397 of of power, so my understanding is that nuclear is going to take 5 or 10 years. 00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:41.197 It's just it's just not something that we're going to be able to do in the next 00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:45.277 2 or 3 years. So in the short term, it really means that like gas is the way 00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:50.317 that these data centers are going to get um powered. And the the issue with gas 00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:54.637 is the shortage there is not I mean America has plenty of natural gas and um 00:52:54.720 --> 00:52:59.357 there's uh it exists in plenty of enough red states where you could just build 00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:03.357 out data centers like close to the source which be smart. Uh the issue is 00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:06.957 there's like a shortage of these um gas turbines. You know there's only like two 00:53:07.040 --> 00:53:09.677 or three companies that make these 00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:14.317 things and like there's like a backlog of two or three years. So I think that's 00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:16.397 probably the the the immediate problem 00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:21.597 there that needs to get solved. Um uh however I do think that in the next 2 00:53:21.680 --> 00:53:23.037 or 3 years we could get a lot more out 00:53:23.120 --> 00:53:25.917 of the grid. So, I've had um you know, 00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:29.437 energy executives tell me that uh that 00:53:29.520 --> 00:53:33.677 if we could just shed um 40 hours a year 00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:38.077 of peak load from the grid to like backup generators, to diesel, things 00:53:38.160 --> 00:53:39.997 like that, you could free up an 00:53:40.080 --> 00:53:42.957 additional 80 gawatt of power, which is 00:53:43.040 --> 00:53:47.757 a lot because I guess the way that it works is um 00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:49.837 is, you know, the the grid is only used 00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:54.877 about 50% uh 50% of the capacity is used throughout the here uh because they have 00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:59.037 to build enough capacity for the the peak the peak days like the hottest day 00:53:59.120 --> 00:54:00.317 in summer, the coldest day in winter. 00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:05.597 Those are your peak days. Uh and they don't want to um commit to a bunch of 00:54:05.680 --> 00:54:08.637 the capacity being used and then you know you find out that you have a really 00:54:08.720 --> 00:54:10.557 cold day in winter and people can't get 00:54:10.640 --> 00:54:15.917 enough heat for their their homes. And so um so they can't like overcommit to 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:19.677 you know to say contracts or data centers, things like that. Um, but if 00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:22.557 you could again just like um if you 00:54:22.640 --> 00:54:27.437 could shed that like 40 hours a year of peak load to backup 00:54:27.520 --> 00:54:31.437 uh then you would be able to free up 80 80 gigawatts which is a lot. Um and that 00:54:31.520 --> 00:54:35.117 would definitely get us through the next you know 2 or 3 years until the gas 00:54:35.200 --> 00:54:38.317 turbine bottleneck's been alleviated. Um and then eventually you get to to 00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:41.917 nuclear. Uh so that would be very good. 00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:45.277 I think um the the issue there is just there's a whole bunch of insane 00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:47.597 regulations preventing 00:54:47.680 --> 00:54:49.677 uh you know load shedding. So like for 00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:53.277 example, you can't use diesel. Um and uh 00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:56.717 this you know uh Chris Wright is the secretary of energy is very good on all 00:54:56.800 --> 00:55:00.077 this stuff and I think he's working on unraveling all of this so we could 00:55:00.160 --> 00:55:03.117 actually uh actually do this. >> It's funny David as you talk about this 00:55:03.200 --> 00:55:05.997 stuff it's I I can't help but it's a little bit like it's a little bit like 00:55:06.080 --> 00:55:11.117 the principle is just do the opposite of the EU. [laughter] 00:55:11.200 --> 00:55:14.877 Yeah. Like basically I think everything we've talked about so far is basically 00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:18.077 the opposite of the European approach. 00:55:18.160 --> 00:55:21.757 >> Yeah. Well, I mean the Europeans I mean they have a really different mindset for 00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:26.157 all this stuff. when when they talk about AI leadership, um 00:55:26.240 --> 00:55:31.357 >> what they mean is that they're taking the lead in defining the regulations and 00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:34.317 they're all, you know, it's like that's what they're proud of is that like they 00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:37.597 think that's what their comparative advantage is is that, you know, they get 00:55:37.680 --> 00:55:40.557 together in Brussels and figure out what all the rules should be 00:55:40.640 --> 00:55:42.477 >> and that's what they call leadership. 00:55:42.560 --> 00:55:46.237 Um, >> the the EU the EU just announced a uh I 00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:48.797 shouldn't be on them too much, but they just announced a big new growth fund, a 00:55:48.880 --> 00:55:53.197 big new public private sector uh tech growth fund to grow uh EU companies to 00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:56.317 scale. And I I just I would literally I was just like, well, it's it's actually 00:55:56.400 --> 00:55:58.477 quite it's almost like a game show or something. They do everything they can 00:55:58.560 --> 00:56:01.517 to strangle them in their crib [clears throat] 00:56:01.600 --> 00:56:04.957 and then if they if they make it if they make it through like a [laughter] decade 00:56:05.040 --> 00:56:08.077 of abuse of small companies, then they're going to give the money to grow. 00:56:08.160 --> 00:56:12.717 Um, >> well, yeah. Well, it's what, you know, Ronald Reagan had a line about this, 00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:16.557 which is if it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops 00:56:16.640 --> 00:56:18.477 moving, subsidize it. >> Yeah. 00:56:18.560 --> 00:56:22.077 >> Uh, the Europeans are definitely at the subsidized stage. [laughter] 00:56:22.160 --> 00:56:25.517 >> Yeah. And I Yeah. I shouldn't be on them too much, but I just like I've always 00:56:25.600 --> 00:56:29.197 been proud to be an American, but particularly now u because like we just 00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:32.317 the fact that we've we've we've been we we are we it really feels like we're 00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:34.797 reentering on core American values in a lot of the things that we're talking 00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:36.317 about, which is just really great. 00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:39.437 >> Yeah. I mean again it's you know our our 00:56:39.520 --> 00:56:43.677 view is that the first of all we have to win the I race. We want America to lead 00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:47.437 in this critical area. It's like fundamental for our economy and our 00:56:47.520 --> 00:56:49.757 national security. How do you do that? 00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:52.237 Well, our companies have to be successful because they're the ones who 00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:55.517 do the innovation. Again, you're not going to regulate your way to winning 00:56:55.600 --> 00:56:58.877 the AI race. I'm not saying we don't need any regulations, but the point is 00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:01.757 just that's not how that's not what's going to determine whether we're the 00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:06.477 winners or not. David, you recently tweeted that climate dumerism perhaps is 00:57:06.560 --> 00:57:11.277 giving way to AI dumerism based on you know Bill Bill Gates recent comments. Um 00:57:11.360 --> 00:57:14.317 what do you mean by this? Do do you mean it's going to be a major fl you know of 00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:17.437 of of the you know uh US left or what do 00:57:17.520 --> 00:57:19.677 what do you mean by this comment? Well, 00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:22.317 I I think the left needs a central 00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:25.917 organizing catastrophe to justify their 00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:30.157 uh takeover of the economy and to to 00:57:30.240 --> 00:57:34.797 regulate everything and especially to control the information space. Uh and I 00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:38.477 think that you're seeing that kind of the allure of the whole climate change 00:57:38.560 --> 00:57:40.957 doomer narrative has kind of faded. 00:57:41.040 --> 00:57:43.437 Maybe it's the fact that they predicted 10 years ago that the whole world would 00:57:43.520 --> 00:57:46.237 be underwater in 10 years and that hasn't happened. So it's like at a 00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:50.717 certain point you get discredited by your own catastrophic predictions. I 00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:53.597 suspect that's where we'll be with AI dumerism in a few years. But in the 00:57:53.680 --> 00:57:56.877 meantime it's a really good narrative to kind of take the place of the climate 00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:01.357 dumerism. There's actually a lot of similarities I would say. Um you know 00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:03.357 you've kind of got um there's a lot of 00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:07.197 kind of um pre-existing Hollywood um 00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:10.957 storytelling and pop culture that supports this idea. You know you've got 00:58:11.040 --> 00:58:13.357 the Terminator movies and the Matrix and 00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:16.397 all this kind of stuff. Uh so people 00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:18.237 have been taught to be afraid of this. 00:58:18.320 --> 00:58:21.677 Um and then you know you you um there 00:58:21.760 --> 00:58:26.077 there's enough kind of pseudocience behind it you know kind of like um you 00:58:26.160 --> 00:58:30.477 know with uh like you've got all these contrived studies that like the one 00:58:30.560 --> 00:58:35.277 where they claimed that the AI researcher got blackmailed by his own AI 00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:37.117 model or whatever. Look, it's very easy 00:58:37.200 --> 00:58:40.877 to steer the model towards um the the 00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:44.317 answer that you want and uh and a lot of these studies have been very contrived, 00:58:44.400 --> 00:58:49.437 but there's this patina pseudocience to it. It's certainly technical enough that 00:58:49.520 --> 00:58:53.197 the average person doesn't feel comfortable saying that this doesn't 00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:56.717 make any sense. I mean, it's more like you're not an expert. What do you know? 00:58:56.800 --> 00:59:01.197 Uh and even Republican politicians, I think, um are kind of falling for this. 00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:05.597 So yeah, I mean it's a rarely desirable nar and of course you know as AI touches 00:59:05.680 --> 00:59:09.037 more and more things, more and more parts of the economy, every business is 00:59:09.120 --> 00:59:12.877 going to use it to some degree. If you can regulate AI, then that kind of gives 00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:17.917 you a lot of control over lots of other things. And like I mentioned, AI is kind 00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:20.077 of eating the internet. It's like the main way that you're getting 00:59:20.160 --> 00:59:25.117 information. So again, if you can kind of get your hooks into what the AI is 00:59:25.200 --> 00:59:30.077 showing people, now you can control what they see and hear and think, uh, which 00:59:30.160 --> 00:59:32.877 dovetales with the whole with the left censorship, you know, agenda, which 00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:37.677 they've never given up on. Uh, dovetales with their agenda to brainwash kids, uh, 00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:41.597 which we, you know, which is kind of the whole woke thing. So, I mean, this is 00:59:41.680 --> 00:59:45.197 this is going to be very desirable for the left and and this is why I mean, 00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:46.637 look, they're they're already doing 00:59:46.720 --> 00:59:48.237 this. This is not like some prediction 00:59:48.320 --> 00:59:52.317 on my part. basically after um scam, 00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:56.397 bankr run fraud uh did what he did with FTX and got sent to jail. He was like a 00:59:56.480 --> 01:00:01.517 big effective altruist and he had made um pandemics like their big cause. They 01:00:01.600 --> 01:00:06.557 needed a new cause and they got behind this idea of of X risk existential risk. 01:00:06.640 --> 01:00:10.877 The idea being if there's like a 1% chance of um AI ending the world, then 01:00:10.960 --> 01:00:14.477 we should drop everything and just focus on that because you do the expected 01:00:14.560 --> 01:00:17.597 value calculation and so if it ends humanity, then that's the only thing you 01:00:17.680 --> 01:00:22.317 should focus on. even if it's, you know, very small percentage chance. But they 01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:26.477 really like reorganized behind this with all and, you know, they've got quite a 01:00:26.560 --> 01:00:28.637 few advocates. And actually, it's it's 01:00:28.720 --> 01:00:30.077 an amazing story about how much 01:00:30.160 --> 01:00:33.837 influence they were able to achieve um 01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:37.757 largely behind the scenes or in the shadows during the Biden years. They 01:00:37.840 --> 01:00:41.917 basically convinced all of the major Biden staffers of this um view of this 01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:45.677 like imminent super intelligence is coming. We should be really afraid of 01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:49.357 it. we need to consolidate control over it. There should only be, you know, 01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:52.877 ideally two or three companies that have it. We don't want anyone in the rest of 01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:55.597 the world to get it. And then, you know, what they said is, you know, once we 01:00:55.680 --> 01:00:59.437 make sure that there's only two or three American companies, we'll u we'll solve 01:00:59.520 --> 01:01:02.397 the coordination problems. That's what they consider to be the, you know, the 01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:05.837 free market, uh, we'll solve those coordination problems for behind those 01:01:05.920 --> 01:01:08.237 um, companies and we'll be able to 01:01:08.320 --> 01:01:13.037 control this whole thing and prevent the the genie from escaping the bottle. I 01:01:13.120 --> 01:01:17.037 think it was like this totally paranoid version of what would happen and it's 01:01:17.120 --> 01:01:18.397 already being it's already in the 01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:22.317 process of being refuted. But this this 01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:26.957 vision is fundamentally what animated the Biden executive order on AI. It's 01:01:27.040 --> 01:01:30.797 what animated the Biden diffusion rule and Mark and you've talked about how you 01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:34.557 were in a meeting with Biden folks and they were going to basically ban open 01:01:34.640 --> 01:01:36.637 source and >> they were going to they're basically 01:01:36.720 --> 01:01:40.157 going to anoint two or three winners and that was it. Um, 01:01:40.240 --> 01:01:43.437 >> yeah, they told us that. They told us that explicitly. Um, and uh, yeah, and 01:01:43.520 --> 01:01:45.197 they told us exactly what you just said. 01:01:45.280 --> 01:01:47.677 They told us they're going to ban open source. And when we challenged them on 01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:50.477 the ability to ban open source because it's, you know, we're talking about, you 01:01:50.560 --> 01:01:54.237 know, math, you know, like mathematical algorithms that are taught in textbooks 01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:57.837 and YouTube videos and universities. Um, you know, they they they said, "Well, 01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:01.117 during the Cold War, we banned entire areas of physics um, and put them off 01:02:01.200 --> 01:02:05.437 limits and we'll do the same thing for math if we have to." Um, yeah. And 01:02:05.520 --> 01:02:09.277 that's the um yeah that's the uh yeah that that was the 01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:12.717 >> and you'll be happy to know that the guy who actually said that is now an 01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:16.077 anthropic employee it's not 01:02:16.160 --> 01:02:19.837 >> no that's exactly right all all those and and I mean literally the minute the 01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:23.277 Biden administration was over all the top Biden AI employees went to go work 01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:26.557 at anthropic which tells you who they were working with during 01:02:26.640 --> 01:02:31.197 >> the Biden years. Um >> but no but I mean this was this was very 01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:34.077 much the narrative you sort of had this imminent 01:02:34.160 --> 01:02:35.757 >> uh super intelligence and then you know 01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:38.557 the one of the refrains you heard um was 01:02:38.640 --> 01:02:43.357 that uh AI is like nuclear weapons and uh and GPUs are like uranium or 01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:48.077 plutonium or something >> and um and so and and therefore we need 01:02:48.160 --> 01:02:51.437 like an you know the way the proper way to to regulate this is with like an 01:02:51.520 --> 01:02:53.917 international atomic energy commission 01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:58.957 >> and so you know again everything would be sort of centralized and um controlled 01:02:59.040 --> 01:03:02.957 and they would anoint two or three winners and you know now this I think 01:03:03.040 --> 01:03:08.397 this narrative really started to fall apart uh with the launch of deepseek which 01:03:08.480 --> 01:03:10.877 really happened in the first I don't know couple weeks of the Trump 01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:13.037 administration because you know if you 01:03:13.120 --> 01:03:18.317 asked any of these people what they thought of um of China during this time 01:03:18.400 --> 01:03:21.757 when they were pushing all these regulations they basically you know and 01:03:21.840 --> 01:03:25.037 specifically well wait if if we shoot ourselves in the foot by overregulating 01:03:25.120 --> 01:03:28.877 AI you know Won't China just win the AI race? If you were to ask them that, what 01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:32.637 they what they would have said, they did say is that China is so far behind us, 01:03:32.720 --> 01:03:36.237 it doesn't matter. And furthermore, uh, and this was said completely without 01:03:36.320 --> 01:03:40.637 evidence that if we basically slow down to impose, you know, all these 01:03:40.720 --> 01:03:43.917 supposedly healthy regulations, well, China will just copy us and do the same 01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:48.717 thing. I think it was an absurdly naive view. I think that if we shoot ourselves 01:03:48.800 --> 01:03:51.517 in the foot, China will just be like, "Thank you very much. We'll just 01:03:51.600 --> 01:03:55.597 >> take leadership in this technology." Uh, why wouldn't we? Um but this is what 01:03:55.680 --> 01:03:57.997 they said and um and you know when when 01:03:58.080 --> 01:04:00.797 when the Biden executive order on AI was 01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:03.917 um crafted there was no discussion 01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:08.397 whatsoever of the China compete. You know it was just it was just again 01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:12.877 assumed that we were so far ahead that um that we could basically do anything 01:04:12.960 --> 01:04:16.237 to our companies and it would just be it wouldn't it wouldn't really affect our 01:04:16.320 --> 01:04:20.237 our um competitiveness. And I think I think that narrative 01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:24.477 really started to fall apart with um DeepSeek at the model level. Uh back in 01:04:24.560 --> 01:04:28.877 April, uh Huawei launched a technology called Cloud Matrix in which they 01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:32.557 compensated for the fact that their chips individually are not as good as 01:04:32.640 --> 01:04:35.837 Nvidia's chips by networking more of 01:04:35.920 --> 01:04:38.957 them together. So they took 384 of them. 01:04:39.040 --> 01:04:41.357 You use their prowess in networking to 01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:46.237 create you know this rack system cloud matrix. And it was demonstrated to show 01:04:46.320 --> 01:04:49.277 that, you know, yes, Nvidia chips are better. They're much more power 01:04:49.360 --> 01:04:52.477 efficient, but at the rack level, at the 01:04:52.560 --> 01:04:55.037 system level, you know, um, Huawei could 01:04:55.120 --> 01:04:59.517 get the job done with these, you know, Ascend chips and cloud matrix. And so, 01:04:59.600 --> 01:05:02.317 again, I think that showed that, you know, we're not the only game in town on 01:05:02.400 --> 01:05:05.997 chips, which means that if we don't sell our chips to, you know, our our friends 01:05:06.080 --> 01:05:11.357 and allies in the Middle East and other places, then Huawei certainly will. Uh 01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:14.317 so I think it's just been kind of one revelation after another in which we've 01:05:14.400 --> 01:05:18.157 learned that um that a lot of their preconceptions and belief were wrong. 01:05:18.240 --> 01:05:21.757 And we've talked about the fact that um that the that the markets ended up being 01:05:21.840 --> 01:05:25.277 much more decentralized than they ever could have predicted. And and I'd also 01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:28.237 say one other thing which is they they 01:05:28.320 --> 01:05:33.117 um they also believe that there'd be you know um imminent catastrophes that 01:05:33.200 --> 01:05:35.677 haven't so this is kind of like the equivalent to the global warming thing 01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:38.957 where we're all supposed to be underwater by now. They they were saying 01:05:39.040 --> 01:05:43.677 that models trained on I think I don't know like 10 to 25 flops or whatever 01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:45.837 were like way too risky. Well, every 01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:51.197 single model now at at the frontier is trained on that level of compute. And so 01:05:51.280 --> 01:05:54.877 they would have banned us from even being at the place we're at today if we 01:05:54.960 --> 01:05:59.757 had listened to these people back in 2023. So just a couple years ago. So 01:05:59.840 --> 01:06:02.717 that's like really important to keep in mind that their predictions of imminent 01:06:02.800 --> 01:06:04.637 catastrophe have already been refuted. 01:06:04.720 --> 01:06:09.117 And so things are moving in a direction that um that I think are very different 01:06:09.200 --> 01:06:12.397 than you know what they thought in you know let's call it the first year after 01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:16.317 the launch of Chachi BBT. >> Right. So David just to uh come back 01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:20.557 real quick while we still have you on on crypto. Um so the administration um and 01:06:20.640 --> 01:06:23.597 I think the country had a significant victory uh earlier this year with the 01:06:23.680 --> 01:06:27.357 president signing the u stable coin bill into law 01:06:27.440 --> 01:06:31.437 >> uh which was the the genius act. Um, and I I think that I'll just tell you what 01:06:31.520 --> 01:06:35.117 we see is like the positive consequences of that law have been even bigger than 01:06:35.200 --> 01:06:39.597 we thought. Um, and I would say that's both for the stable coin industry and 01:06:39.680 --> 01:06:42.797 you now see actually a lot of a lot of financial institutions of all kinds 01:06:42.880 --> 01:06:46.317 embracing stable coins um, in a way that that they weren't before. Um, and you 01:06:46.400 --> 01:06:48.717 know, sort of the the phenomenon spreading in America, you know, by the 01:06:48.800 --> 01:06:51.757 way, doing, you know, being being in the lead and doing very well there. Um, but 01:06:51.840 --> 01:06:55.117 but but just also more broadly just as a signal to the crypto industry that like 01:06:55.200 --> 01:06:58.397 this, you know, this really is a, you know, this really is a new day. um and 01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:00.877 they're really there really are going to be regulatory frameworks that that make 01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:03.677 these things possible and and you know that that are responsible but also make 01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:07.597 this industry really possible to flourish um and in the US um as you know 01:07:07.680 --> 01:07:11.117 there's a second piece of legislation um you know being constructed right now 01:07:11.200 --> 01:07:14.797 which is the market structure bill called the clarity act um which is sort 01:07:14.880 --> 01:07:18.317 of the phase two of the legislative agenda um and I wondered maybe if you 01:07:18.400 --> 01:07:20.877 could just tell us a little bit about your view of of the importance of that 01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:24.477 of that bill and and then you know kind of how do you think that process is going 01:07:24.560 --> 01:07:29.197 >> I think it's extremely important um So, as you mentioned, we we passed the the 01:07:29.280 --> 01:07:33.117 Genius Act few few months ago, but that was just for stable coins. Stable coins 01:07:33.200 --> 01:07:35.437 are about 6% of the total market cap in 01:07:35.520 --> 01:07:38.397 terms of tokens. So, 94% are all the 01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:42.637 other types of tokens. And the Clarity Act would apply to all of that and 01:07:42.720 --> 01:07:44.797 provide the regulatory framework for all 01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:46.557 those other crypto projects and 01:07:46.640 --> 01:07:50.557 companies. Um, you know, if we could be 01:07:50.640 --> 01:07:55.117 sure that, you know, currently we have a great SEC chairman, Paul Atkins, and if 01:07:55.200 --> 01:07:58.637 we could be sure that Paul Atkins and a person like Paul Atkins was always at 01:07:58.720 --> 01:08:02.157 the SEC forever, that we wouldn't necessarily need legislation because 01:08:02.240 --> 01:08:05.117 they're already in the process of implementing like much better rules and 01:08:05.200 --> 01:08:08.557 providing regulatory clarity. But the truth is that we don't know for sure. 01:08:08.640 --> 01:08:12.717 And if you're a founder who's trying to make a decision now about where you're 01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:15.757 going to build your company, you want to have certainty for 10 years out, 20 01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:20.317 years out. uh you know we want to encourage long-term projects and so 01:08:20.400 --> 01:08:23.837 again I think it's very important to pro to canonize 01:08:23.920 --> 01:08:27.757 uh the the the rules that that's first to provide the clarity and then to make 01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:32.397 sure there's enough stability around them and sort of canonize those rules in 01:08:32.480 --> 01:08:35.757 legislation. That's the only way that you provide that long-term stability. I 01:08:35.840 --> 01:08:38.797 think that we will get the clarity act done. Like you mentioned it passed the 01:08:38.880 --> 01:08:43.197 house with about 300 votes of about 78 Democrats. So it was substantially 01:08:43.280 --> 01:08:47.037 bipartisan. I think it will ultimately we're it's now going through the Senate. 01:08:47.120 --> 01:08:50.157 Um I think it will ultimately get done. 01:08:50.240 --> 01:08:53.357 Uh we're negotiating with a dozen or so 01:08:53.440 --> 01:08:55.197 Democrat. We have to get to 60 votes. So 01:08:55.280 --> 01:09:00.477 that's the the hard part is under the filibuster. We got to get to 60. Uh so 01:09:00.560 --> 01:09:03.757 but we're negotiating with about a dozen Democrats. And I I do think that we will 01:09:03.840 --> 01:09:06.317 ultimately get to to that number. We by 01:09:06.400 --> 01:09:09.277 the way we ended up having 68 uh votes 01:09:09.360 --> 01:09:14.157 in the Senate for genius uh including 18 Democrats. So, I do think that even if 01:09:14.240 --> 01:09:17.357 we just get, you know, twothirds of the number of 01:09:17.440 --> 01:09:20.557 Democrats that we got for Genius, then, you know, we'll we'll be we'll be fine 01:09:20.640 --> 01:09:25.357 on on clarity. But I, you know, this will provide the the regulatory 01:09:25.440 --> 01:09:28.797 framework again for all the other tokens besides stable coins. And um I think 01:09:28.880 --> 01:09:32.637 it's just a critical piece of of legislation. 01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:36.957 And uh yeah, this this would ultimately I think kind of complete the crypto 01:09:37.040 --> 01:09:41.277 agenda where we've kind of you know moving from you know Biden's war on 01:09:41.360 --> 01:09:46.237 crypto to Trump's crypto capital the planet. Um and then you know I think the 01:09:46.320 --> 01:09:50.397 industry will have the stability it needs and can just focus on innovating and 01:09:50.480 --> 01:09:53.037 >> there'll be you know rule updates and things like that but you know we'll 01:09:53.120 --> 01:09:56.477 fundamentally have the foundation for the industry in place. 01:09:56.560 --> 01:10:01.677 >> On Genius Act um you know President Trump really made that bill possible. I 01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:05.437 mean, first of all, it was his election that completely shifted the conversation 01:10:05.520 --> 01:10:10.237 >> on crypto. We would still be, you know, if a different result had been reached, 01:10:10.320 --> 01:10:14.237 we would have again like figure out the SEC. The founders would still be getting 01:10:14.320 --> 01:10:16.957 prosecuted. We wouldn't know what the rules are. Elizabeth Warren would be 01:10:17.040 --> 01:10:20.237 calling the shots. So, President Trump's election made everything possible. And 01:10:20.320 --> 01:10:23.277 it's his commitment to the industry and 01:10:23.360 --> 01:10:27.837 he and his commitment to keeping his um promises during the election that's made 01:10:27.920 --> 01:10:31.917 all of this possible. But also I mean he got directly involved in making sure the 01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:35.117 Genius Act passed. It was the legislation was declared dead many 01:10:35.200 --> 01:10:38.237 times. Uh I saw it with my own eyes that 01:10:38.320 --> 01:10:43.677 you know he was able to persuade um Rickstrrent votes and uh twist arms 01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:45.197 cajul 01:10:45.280 --> 01:10:48.557 uh and um charm and um you know he 01:10:48.640 --> 01:10:53.037 ultimately got it done and um and I think that clarity will be a similar 01:10:53.120 --> 01:10:58.157 result. people are always prematurely declaring these things to be dead or 01:10:58.240 --> 01:11:01.517 whatever. Um there are a lot of twists and turns in the legislative process. 01:11:01.600 --> 01:11:04.157 It's definitely true that you don't want to see the sausage getting made, but um 01:11:04.240 --> 01:11:06.637 but anyway, I think we're on a good track right now. 01:11:06.720 --> 01:11:10.957 >> Good. Fantastic. >> Great. >> Pete Pete Buddhajes went on all in 01:11:11.040 --> 01:11:15.197 recently and you guys talked about the the left's identity crisis and you he's 01:11:15.280 --> 01:11:19.357 hoping for more of a moderate, you know, center center left um to to to emerge. 01:11:19.440 --> 01:11:22.877 At the same time, we see Mumani in New York. I'm I'm curious what you you think 01:11:22.960 --> 01:11:26.077 of what are you seeing in terms of what is the future in terms of for the for 01:11:26.160 --> 01:11:29.517 the Democratic party in terms of it is there a more moderate presence or is it 01:11:29.600 --> 01:11:33.197 kind of this Mani style you know woke populism? 01:11:33.280 --> 01:11:35.197 >> I mean it certainly seems to me that 01:11:35.280 --> 01:11:40.557 Mani and and um I don't know like the woke socialism seems to be the future of 01:11:40.640 --> 01:11:43.997 the party. I mean that's where all the energy is and their base. I mean I don't 01:11:44.080 --> 01:11:48.237 want that to be the case. I'd rather have a rational Democrat party, but um 01:11:48.320 --> 01:11:50.317 but that seems to be where their base 01:11:50.400 --> 01:11:53.197 is, where the energy is. And um you 01:11:53.280 --> 01:11:56.077 don't really hear um Democrats um within 01:11:56.160 --> 01:12:00.237 the party trying to self police and distance themselves from that. Uh you 01:12:00.320 --> 01:12:04.317 saw I mean all the major figures in the Democrat party have endorsed Mammi. So 01:12:04.400 --> 01:12:05.517 yeah, I mean that's where that party 01:12:05.600 --> 01:12:10.397 seems to be headed. Um I I I think that 01:12:10.480 --> 01:12:13.277 um partly it's where their base is at. I 01:12:13.360 --> 01:12:16.717 think partly it it might be um a a 01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:20.237 misread of of uh it sort of it could be 01:12:20.320 --> 01:12:25.837 kind of like a partial reaction to to Trump where they feel like um you know 01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:28.957 establishment politics has kind of failed and so they need a populism of 01:12:29.040 --> 01:12:33.117 the left to compete with a populism of the right and so I think that's maybe 01:12:33.200 --> 01:12:37.757 part of the calculation for why they're going this direction but I don't you 01:12:37.840 --> 01:12:40.477 know fundamentally I don't think it works. I don't think socialism works. I 01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:42.717 don't think the um you know, defund the 01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:44.397 police, empty all the jails policies 01:12:44.480 --> 01:12:47.837 work. Um so, you know, I think we're 01:12:47.920 --> 01:12:51.597 about to get another um you know, uh 01:12:51.680 --> 01:12:54.397 case uh a teaching moment in New York. 01:12:54.480 --> 01:12:55.677 Unfortunately, it's not going to be good 01:12:55.760 --> 01:12:58.957 for the city. Uh but, uh you know, we 01:12:59.040 --> 01:13:03.117 we've seen this movie before, but uh but yeah, that's that's where I mean, it 01:13:03.200 --> 01:13:05.997 does appear that's where the Democrat party is. Um I don't completely get it. 01:13:06.080 --> 01:13:07.677 I mean, other people have made this 01:13:07.760 --> 01:13:09.277 observation, but they do seem to be on 01:13:09.360 --> 01:13:14.357 the 20% side of every 8020 issue. Um, 01:13:14.440 --> 01:13:15.197 [snorts] 01:13:15.280 --> 01:13:19.357 uh, you know, opening the border, um, 01:13:19.440 --> 01:13:21.517 you know, on the, um, soft on crime 01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:23.677 stuff, you know, releasing all the the 01:13:23.760 --> 01:13:27.597 repeat offenders and, um, 01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:32.557 and just sort of this, um, you know, anti- capitalist approach um, you know, 01:13:32.640 --> 01:13:35.917 which I think will be disastrous for the economy. I mean, this but this is this 01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:39.437 is kind of where the party's at right now. It is it's a little scary because 01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:43.837 it does mean that if we lose elections in places where we do lose elections, 01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:47.757 it's like, you know, there you could end up with something really horrible, not 01:13:47.840 --> 01:13:51.357 just like, you know, we're not just playing in the 40 yard lines anymore in 01:13:51.440 --> 01:13:55.197 American politics. Uh and that that is a little bit scary. 01:13:55.280 --> 01:13:58.237 >> Yeah. >> And I I do think that, you know, if it 01:13:58.320 --> 01:14:01.437 weren't for Donald Trump, I think in a way we we might already be there. Um, 01:14:01.520 --> 01:14:03.037 you know, I think, you know, but we have 01:14:03.120 --> 01:14:06.717 to make sure that this um 01:14:06.800 --> 01:14:12.397 this um the Trump revolution continues. 01:14:12.480 --> 01:14:17.197 La lastly, um we just talked about New York. Um recently in an episode all in 01:14:17.280 --> 01:14:21.037 in San Francisco, you you you know endorsed bringing the the National 01:14:21.120 --> 01:14:24.077 Guard. You know, Ben off had his comments. He he sort of, you know, went 01:14:24.160 --> 01:14:25.917 back and forth forth in those comments. 01:14:26.000 --> 01:14:28.637 I'm curious if speaking of teaching moments, I'm curious if you see San 01:14:28.720 --> 01:14:33.677 Francisco as savable in in some sense and and what what needs to be true to to 01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:36.797 get there if so. >> Well, Daniel Luri is the best mayor 01:14:36.880 --> 01:14:39.197 we've had in decades. So, I think he's 01:14:39.280 --> 01:14:44.317 doing a very good job um within the constraints that San Francisco presents. 01:14:44.400 --> 01:14:48.317 Uh so, the the the mayor job, unfortunately, we have a weak mayor in 01:14:48.400 --> 01:14:51.517 San Francisco. I I don't mean him. I just mean like the way it's all set up. 01:14:51.600 --> 01:14:53.997 the board of supervisors has, you know, 01:14:54.080 --> 01:14:57.197 a ton of power and um over time they've 01:14:57.280 --> 01:15:02.157 been able to kind of transfer power from the mayor to to themselves. Um and then 01:15:02.240 --> 01:15:05.597 of course you got all these leftwing judges. I mean, it's just amazing to me 01:15:05.680 --> 01:15:10.317 that um there's a case right now, this is a case that galvanized me several 01:15:10.400 --> 01:15:12.317 years ago, the case of Troy Mallister, 01:15:12.400 --> 01:15:15.997 who was a repeat offender who uh killed 01:15:16.080 --> 01:15:17.917 pe two people on New Year's Eve. I think 01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:21.197 it was like uh 2020. 01:15:21.280 --> 01:15:24.397 Uh and um he was arrested four times, 01:15:24.480 --> 01:15:27.677 you know, uh in the year before that. Uh 01:15:27.760 --> 01:15:31.597 he he he ended up killing these two people and he had a very very long 01:15:31.680 --> 01:15:33.597 criminal history. He had committed armed 01:15:33.680 --> 01:15:37.037 robbery before, stolen many cars. 01:15:37.120 --> 01:15:39.757 Uh and he should have been in jail. He should not have been released. But he 01:15:39.840 --> 01:15:43.517 was basically released thanks to the zero bail policies of Chase Bodin, who 01:15:43.600 --> 01:15:47.277 was then the district attorney who we got recalled. There was a huge outcry. I 01:15:47.360 --> 01:15:49.197 mean, even in San Francisco for there to 01:15:49.280 --> 01:15:51.677 be a recall of a polit I mean, you got 01:15:51.760 --> 01:15:54.557 to be like seriously leftwing to um 01:15:54.640 --> 01:15:56.237 >> to basically alienate San Francisco and 01:15:56.320 --> 01:15:59.357 Chase managed to be so far out there 01:15:59.440 --> 01:16:01.997 that he alienated even San Francisco. 01:16:02.080 --> 01:16:04.877 And yet, I don't know why Tory Mallister 01:16:04.960 --> 01:16:09.277 isn't sentenced already and in jail for 20 years plus, but his case is still 01:16:09.360 --> 01:16:13.357 pending through the courts, never ending. And there's a leftwing judge 01:16:13.440 --> 01:16:16.557 who's considering just giving him diversion. basically means you just get 01:16:16.640 --> 01:16:21.677 released maybe with an ankle bracelet or something. Um that's insane. So I mean 01:16:21.760 --> 01:16:24.317 that's what we're dealing with in San Francisco. I mean like crazy leftwing 01:16:24.400 --> 01:16:25.357 judges who want to release all the 01:16:25.440 --> 01:16:29.757 criminals. Uh and um you know and so I 01:16:29.840 --> 01:16:33.757 just wonder like is Daniel up against too many constraints and therefore I 01:16:33.840 --> 01:16:36.877 know he doesn't want the president to send in the National Guard but maybe 01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:41.757 ultimately it would be helpful. Um but in any event, I think the president has 01:16:41.840 --> 01:16:46.637 has agreed to kind of hold off on that um out of you, 01:16:46.720 --> 01:16:49.597 you know, Daniel had a good conversation with the president and asked him to hold 01:16:49.680 --> 01:16:52.237 back and um and you know, the president 01:16:52.320 --> 01:16:54.877 uh agreed and is giving him time to 01:16:54.960 --> 01:16:57.997 implement his solutions. And look, if if 01:16:58.080 --> 01:17:03.197 um if Daniel and his team can keep making progress and fix the problems 01:17:03.280 --> 01:17:06.477 without the National Guard having to come in, then so much the better. Um, 01:17:06.560 --> 01:17:09.517 we'll just see if and and I know he wants to and like I said, he's the best 01:17:09.600 --> 01:17:13.277 mayor we've had in decades. It's just a question of whether he'll be too 01:17:13.360 --> 01:17:17.117 constrained by the other powers that be in the city. 01:17:17.200 --> 01:17:18.797 >> David, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. 01:17:18.880 --> 01:17:21.917 >> Yeah. >> Fantastic. Thank you, 01:17:22.000 --> 01:17:25.357 >> and thank you for the work. It's we we 01:17:25.440 --> 01:17:29.437 as much as anybody appreciate the work that you've done to uh fix the things in 01:17:29.520 --> 01:17:32.877 the past and and put us on a great road to the future. Yep. 01:17:32.960 --> 01:17:36.477 >> Well, thanks. And I appreciate what you guys have done as well. So, thank you for 01:17:36.560 --> 01:17:39.517 for your support, everything you're doing. So, >> yeah, >> I appreciate it. 01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:43.710 >> Definitely. [music] 01:17:57.410 --> 01:17:59.430 >> [music]