WEBVTT 00:00:00.010 --> 00:00:01.557 What's happening right now is a big deal. 00:00:01.640 --> 00:00:03.690 This is the biggest launch since ChatGPT. 00:00:03.930 --> 00:00:07.770 It's called Muse. "Muse." "Muse." "Has the tech world buzzing." "5 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:13.070 million downloads in 22 days." "Surpassing ChatGPT" And he built it. 00:00:13.280 --> 00:00:15.777 Most people are using AI to answer questions, basically 00:00:15.860 --> 00:00:18.910 glorified Google search. This is something totally different. 00:00:19.150 --> 00:00:23.297 "It's an AI agent" "Built for everyday life." "We believe that Muse will 00:00:23.380 --> 00:00:26.417 make you money." "One guy had Muse help plan a weekend away with his 00:00:26.500 --> 00:00:28.327 wife." It can make phone calls. 00:00:28.410 --> 00:00:29.927 It can do tasks for you. 00:00:30.010 --> 00:00:34.250 But for it to work, you have to trust it, first with your personal information, 00:00:34.550 --> 00:00:40.250 then to do what you actually want it to do, and then that it's not gonna, well, 00:00:40.340 --> 00:00:44.467 get out of control, all at a time when the most important AI leaders are warning 00:00:44.550 --> 00:00:47.637 us that AI is getting out of control. 00:00:47.720 --> 00:00:49.890 And I urge you to urge me to stop. 00:00:50.700 --> 00:00:53.767 If you understand what's happening right now with Muse, you'll understand 00:00:53.850 --> 00:00:55.810 the biggest things happening in AI. 00:00:56.220 --> 00:00:59.130 So what can it actually do? When should we trust it? 00:00:59.380 --> 00:01:03.480 And what do we need to do to make sure this goes right? 00:01:03.860 --> 00:01:06.557 And we're at the moment of, like, peak insanity. 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:09.397 Why are all these billionaires obsessed with restaurant reservations? 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:12.397 We have a shared interest in making sure this technology 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:13.647 does not go horribly wrong. 00:01:13.730 --> 00:01:16.497 Is that something that's happening in some private room somewhere? 00:01:16.580 --> 00:01:21.787 The degree to which certain personal animosities are actually defining 00:01:21.870 --> 00:01:25.470 how they're developing this really important technology is insane to me. 00:01:30.990 --> 00:01:34.350 Amazing Let's do this. Okay. Welcome. 00:01:34.620 --> 00:01:36.387 How have you been? I'm good. I'm really good. 00:01:36.470 --> 00:01:39.997 How have you been? This is- It's been kind of insane, yeah. 00:01:40.080 --> 00:01:43.380 Yeah. What does it feel like? 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:48.587 We didn't expect that it would be such a hit, so I feel amazing for, like, the 00:01:48.670 --> 00:01:51.457 whole team and everyone who, like, worked so hard on it 'cause it's, like, it's 00:01:51.540 --> 00:01:53.347 really come together and become a thing. 00:01:53.430 --> 00:01:55.117 So… That's what I'm excited to talk about. 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:57.057 I know you know all about the show already. 00:01:57.140 --> 00:02:00.330 But this isn't, like, a traditional interview. 00:02:00.630 --> 00:02:02.127 Like, I'm not gonna ask about financials. 00:02:02.210 --> 00:02:03.637 I'm not gonna ask about management style. 00:02:03.720 --> 00:02:09.670 You just launched one of the most popular consumer tools of all time, and so the 00:02:09.760 --> 00:02:13.877 only thing that I wanna know is what's the future that you're working toward 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:18.787 with that tool, and how can this audience that's really optimistic and really wants 00:02:18.870 --> 00:02:23.350 to be part of making sure that that future go right, how can they feel like they're 00:02:23.470 --> 00:02:25.600 part of the decisions that are being made? 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:28.007 Yep. All of that. Yeah. That's what we do. 00:02:28.090 --> 00:02:31.897 One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was I've always 00:02:31.980 --> 00:02:34.060 appreciated that you're really blunt. 00:02:36.830 --> 00:02:42.307 Like, I, I honestly think that people need straight talk about this. 00:02:42.390 --> 00:02:46.007 I think that they feel confused, and I wanna get at what's really 00:02:46.090 --> 00:02:51.130 happening, what have you built, how are people using it, how are they 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:53.470 not, what are the real challenges. 00:02:54.020 --> 00:02:57.137 I think one other interesting thing is given how popular Muse 00:02:57.220 --> 00:03:03.760 has become, I want to use it as a way to talk about other things in AI. 00:03:04.350 --> 00:03:05.977 Awesome. Okay. Let's get into it. 00:03:06.060 --> 00:03:09.210 Muse is the fastest-growing consumer tool since ChatGPT. 00:03:09.330 --> 00:03:13.607 Faster than ChatGPT, I think, and it feels like this is the moment when 00:03:13.690 --> 00:03:18.857 we're moving maybe from chatbots to agents, but there have been a lot of 00:03:18.940 --> 00:03:23.347 other popular agents, mostly in code, and I'm curious, why do you think 00:03:23.430 --> 00:03:24.827 this is happening for Muse right now? 00:03:24.910 --> 00:03:26.510 Why is Muse exploding like this? 00:03:26.940 --> 00:03:31.117 I think one of the mysteries of AI so far this year, for most of the year, has been 00:03:31.200 --> 00:03:36.737 that agents were happening for engineers and software engineers and coders, and 00:03:36.820 --> 00:03:41.097 then nobody else in the world, like, was experiencing it, knew what it was, like, 00:03:41.180 --> 00:03:42.907 understood exactly what was happening. 00:03:42.990 --> 00:03:47.267 And so for most of this year, you've kind of had this, like, two dialogues 00:03:47.350 --> 00:03:52.007 almost where people who do code and could see how powerful AI was becoming 00:03:52.090 --> 00:03:56.560 and, and how useful it was becoming were like, "Oh my gosh, this is incredible." 00:03:56.720 --> 00:03:59.167 And then everyone else was kind of like, "What are you talking about? 00:03:59.250 --> 00:04:00.207 I just still use a chatbot. 00:04:00.290 --> 00:04:03.067 Like, it's, like, a little bit better than Google, but what are you guys all 00:04:03.150 --> 00:04:07.907 freaked out about?" And, um, and one of the things that we were really excited 00:04:07.990 --> 00:04:12.387 to do is how do we take the magic that engineers and coders and developers 00:04:12.470 --> 00:04:15.457 are seeing and bring that to everyone? 00:04:15.540 --> 00:04:18.107 One of the things that, that has happened over the course of the past 00:04:18.190 --> 00:04:22.417 year is, like, the AI models started out as pretty janky agents, and you 00:04:22.500 --> 00:04:25.707 kind of had to struggle through them to get them to work, and then they 00:04:25.790 --> 00:04:27.790 slowly got better and better and better. 00:04:27.940 --> 00:04:31.497 And most of the industry's been really focused on making them just, like- Better 00:04:31.580 --> 00:04:33.057 and better and better at coding. 00:04:33.140 --> 00:04:36.247 But we really felt this was like a s- a big gap because most people in the 00:04:36.330 --> 00:04:37.917 world, they don't know how to code. 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:39.877 They d- probably never even want to code. 00:04:39.960 --> 00:04:45.347 Um, but they still wanna feel the experience of agents and, um, having 00:04:45.430 --> 00:04:49.937 AI that is able to do more for you and actually start taking on more end-to-end 00:04:50.020 --> 00:04:52.287 workflows and take on more tasks for you. 00:04:52.370 --> 00:04:56.400 So that was really the goal behind Muse, and I think we spent a lot of time 00:04:56.900 --> 00:05:02.100 polishing all the little details to make sure that it would just work for people 00:05:02.400 --> 00:05:06.940 because we knew that, like, developers can kind of withstand a lot of jank 00:05:07.210 --> 00:05:10.347 and a lot of stuff breaking and, like, they can kind of deal with all of that 00:05:10.430 --> 00:05:12.057 because, you know, they're, they're… 00:05:12.140 --> 00:05:15.457 It's technology. They're used to dealing with, you know- Yeah … unripe technology. 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:18.717 But for everyone, you have to make something that's really smooth 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:20.350 and, and really works for them. 00:05:20.580 --> 00:05:26.647 That also helps explain the big gap, I think, between what it feels like for most 00:05:26.730 --> 00:05:31.157 people to actually use AI, when they were using a chatbot in particular, and the 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:35.577 conversation around AI that's it's gonna take everyone's jobs, it's really scary. 00:05:35.660 --> 00:05:38.667 It's, you know, there's a, there's a macro conversation happening, and then there's 00:05:38.750 --> 00:05:40.297 an experience that people are having. 00:05:40.380 --> 00:05:43.207 And it just seems like those things are really, really far apart. 00:05:43.290 --> 00:05:47.467 And to your point, Muse is giving more people the opportunity to have 00:05:47.550 --> 00:05:51.770 the insight that computer engineers had, you know, call it a year ago. 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:54.047 Yeah. Is that fair? I, I think that's true, yeah. 00:05:54.130 --> 00:05:57.690 Yeah. There are also moments in history that I think feel similar. 00:05:57.780 --> 00:06:01.487 Would you say it's like the mobile phone moment for agents? 00:06:01.570 --> 00:06:05.570 There are, you know, billions of people brought online by mobile phones that 00:06:05.660 --> 00:06:09.277 never had PCs because it was easy and simple to use, and they didn't, you 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:13.007 know. I actually hadn't thought about that until you just mentioned it, but I 00:06:13.090 --> 00:06:15.040 think it's a great analogy because it's 00:06:15.150 --> 00:06:17.077 These models, they're improving really fast, and they're 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:18.427 improving really, really quickly. 00:06:18.510 --> 00:06:22.620 And it's really important that we, as those models get better, that 00:06:22.820 --> 00:06:27.877 the, the superpowers that they, they lend can be given to, like, literally 00:06:27.960 --> 00:06:29.297 everyone all around the world. 00:06:29.380 --> 00:06:33.567 The part that I like about the analogy is, like, um, so much of it is just 00:06:33.650 --> 00:06:39.647 about figuring out how to package it all together into a form factor that, um, 00:06:39.730 --> 00:06:42.817 will resonate with people, and that's what we spent a lot of time trying to 00:06:42.900 --> 00:06:45.390 craft and get right and, and make perfect. 00:06:45.510 --> 00:06:49.747 Which also gets to one of the interesting initial reactions that I've heard 00:06:49.830 --> 00:06:53.130 of Muse, which is, is everybody's life more complicated than mine? 00:06:53.520 --> 00:06:57.327 Like, I wake up, I go to work, I play with my kids, I have one 00:06:57.410 --> 00:07:01.347 restaurant reservation a month, I plan one vacation with my spouse. 00:07:01.430 --> 00:07:04.917 Like, why are all these billionaires obsessed with restaurant reservations? 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:06.430 Why do I need an assistant? 00:07:07.050 --> 00:07:08.577 How would you answer that? 00:07:08.660 --> 00:07:12.130 Whenever I explain Muse to someone just who knows nothing about it, 00:07:12.430 --> 00:07:15.880 um, I just say, like, Muse can help save you money and save you time, 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:20.210 and everybody in the world wants to save money and wants to save time. 00:07:20.430 --> 00:07:24.550 Depending on what your lifestyle is, that can mean a different thing to you. 00:07:24.810 --> 00:07:28.247 I think almost everyone has, like, subscriptions that they shouldn't be 00:07:28.330 --> 00:07:31.827 paying for or subscriptions that are really expensive, like cable bills or 00:07:31.910 --> 00:07:36.517 insurance, and for a lot of people, their magic moment with Muse is just saving 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:39.667 money on things that they shouldn't be spending money on or they shouldn't be 00:07:39.750 --> 00:07:43.510 spending so much money on, or finding gift cards that they hadn't spent or, 00:07:43.650 --> 00:07:45.257 you know, the list goes on and on and on. 00:07:45.340 --> 00:07:47.337 I think it's awesome that so many people are experiencing that. 00:07:47.420 --> 00:07:50.677 I think that's, like, great because these are things that, they're just, 00:07:50.760 --> 00:07:54.607 I think for most people, they're just so boring- That you would never get to 00:07:54.690 --> 00:07:58.107 Yeah, actually, like, handling them or, or dealing with them, but, you know, your 00:07:58.190 --> 00:08:00.337 agent, Muse, can just do that for you. 00:08:00.420 --> 00:08:04.127 And then they're saving time, which I think for, for lots of people, I think 00:08:04.210 --> 00:08:06.797 there are always experiences that are just way more frustrating than they should 00:08:06.880 --> 00:08:09.020 be, like going to the DMV is one example. 00:08:09.180 --> 00:08:14.057 We actually, when we built Muse, we, like, specifically tested it to see if it 00:08:14.140 --> 00:08:18.727 could deal with the DMV website because that was, like, the pinnacle we thought 00:08:18.810 --> 00:08:23.830 of, like, the most frustrating experience for any human is dealing with the DMV. 00:08:24.100 --> 00:08:29.037 So we kne- we needed to have Muse, like, be able to, to do well in that situation. 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.177 We've seen people use it for, like, yeah, navigating the 00:08:31.260 --> 00:08:32.537 healthcare system's a big one. 00:08:32.620 --> 00:08:36.407 Medical claims is, like, a huge one that, like, most people just… It's, 00:08:36.490 --> 00:08:40.097 like, so complicated and annoying that it's just, like, incredibly frustrating. 00:08:40.180 --> 00:08:43.437 We've seen people, like, use it to help run their small business. 00:08:43.520 --> 00:08:46.387 We've seen a lot of people, like, use it to help run their social media 00:08:46.470 --> 00:08:50.370 even, and I think the medical system is a really good example 'cause 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.090 it's, like, so hard to understand. 00:08:53.330 --> 00:08:56.197 And I think the, the you know, one of the best ways to put it is, like, 00:08:56.280 --> 00:08:57.830 I think the cases where people… 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:01.307 where it's, like, a huge lifesaver are the cases where, like, otherwise you 00:09:01.390 --> 00:09:05.307 would be at your computer, you'd have to Google, like, 50 different things. 00:09:05.390 --> 00:09:08.357 You have to read, go to, like, 100 different websites and try to figure 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:11.917 out what the hell is going on, and it couls, it's just, like, this 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:15.650 incredibly frustrating experience, or you could have your Muse do it. 00:09:15.830 --> 00:09:21.937 I also think about how many things I suspect are made difficult 00:09:22.020 --> 00:09:25.117 and time-consuming on purpose in order to frustrate me so much 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:26.597 that I don't get to the end? 00:09:26.680 --> 00:09:30.857 How many claims are actually designed to be that hard so that I give up? 00:09:30.940 --> 00:09:36.387 And I wonder what effect more people having more patience because 00:09:36.470 --> 00:09:40.020 they have support will have on that kind of systems engineering. 00:09:40.350 --> 00:09:44.757 One of the, the little memes that I made of the little Muse was, uh, Muse in 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:47.250 Hood, which is like a Muse Robin Hood. 00:09:47.510 --> 00:09:52.657 But I think there's, like, a real truth to this, which is there are lots of things 00:09:52.740 --> 00:09:58.167 that exist in the world that are, to your point, meant to be hard so that mo- 00:09:58.250 --> 00:10:02.027 like, uh, canceling subscriptions is one of the best examples, where there's some 00:10:02.110 --> 00:10:05.087 subscriptions where you have to, like, click on one thing and click on another 00:10:05.170 --> 00:10:09.077 thing, and then click on, like, the little piece of text, and then not click the big 00:10:09.160 --> 00:10:10.777 red button, but click the other button. 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:14.437 And, like, that's just, like, the perfect example where there's lots of cases 00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:19.647 where things are designed to be hard for people, and I think, like, this is 00:10:19.730 --> 00:10:23.790 giving people the tools to be able to just do those things seamlessly and easily. 00:10:24.090 --> 00:10:27.167 I got access to the calling, um, and I had it make a call this 00:10:27.250 --> 00:10:29.000 morning, which it did successfully. 00:10:29.090 --> 00:10:31.107 What does it sound like on the other end? 00:10:31.190 --> 00:10:35.897 I think it's clear for the other end that it is, like, an AI, and I think 00:10:35.980 --> 00:10:39.057 if you look, read the, you know, we show, we show users the transcript. 00:10:39.140 --> 00:10:41.537 Like, if you see the transcript, like, the beginning of the call I 00:10:41.620 --> 00:10:44.547 always think is really funny because it's like, "Hi, I'm so-and-so. 00:10:44.630 --> 00:10:49.477 Um, I'm Cleo's assistant, and, uh, this call is being recorded." And I 00:10:49.560 --> 00:10:53.227 think it's just, like, always this very funny beginning of a call. "Hi, I'm 00:10:53.310 --> 00:10:55.290 Haley calling on Cleo Abrams' behalf. 00:10:55.970 --> 00:10:59.087 I'm transcribing our call for notes." What are some examples of when it's 00:10:59.170 --> 00:11:03.170 messed up for you or when it's, you feel like categories it struggles for still? 00:11:03.370 --> 00:11:08.140 One thing that we're, we're always trying to improve is the memory 00:11:08.260 --> 00:11:10.387 of these Of these agents, right? 00:11:10.470 --> 00:11:13.857 And this is still one of the more unsolved problems, I think, for a lot 00:11:13.940 --> 00:11:17.577 of these agents, is having the-- You know, the, the memory of the agents 00:11:17.660 --> 00:11:19.450 is, like, not like that of a human. 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:23.197 Um, sometimes it can feel like it's like that, but it is really different. 00:11:23.280 --> 00:11:25.727 So that's one area where we're, like, always trying to improve. 00:11:25.810 --> 00:11:28.327 We always wanna, wanna figure out how to make the agents better. 00:11:28.410 --> 00:11:31.987 And then, like, we want them to be able to continue doing 00:11:32.070 --> 00:11:33.577 more and more complex tasks. 00:11:33.660 --> 00:11:36.597 I, I find this really funny, but there's, um, there's a lot of people 00:11:36.680 --> 00:11:39.947 who will just, like, ask their Muse, "I want you to make me $10,000." 00:11:40.030 --> 00:11:43.537 And obviously, not everyone can just ask their Muse to make them $10,000, but, 00:11:43.620 --> 00:11:47.227 like, I think, I think these kinds of, like, more amorphous, nebulous tasks, 00:11:47.310 --> 00:11:50.887 like, we want Muse to be able to at least, like, build a plan and figure 00:11:50.970 --> 00:11:54.707 out and, you know, you're gonna have to do your part if you wanna make $10,000. 00:11:54.790 --> 00:11:59.777 But I think we wanna enable the, the agent to do more and more kind of complex and 00:11:59.860 --> 00:12:02.030 esoteric tasks, um, to help the users. 00:12:02.370 --> 00:12:06.977 There are some things where I feel emotionally, even if Muse could do 00:12:07.060 --> 00:12:08.867 them, I would prefer that they didn't. 00:12:08.950 --> 00:12:11.677 So for example, if I'm texting a friend and I find out that 00:12:11.760 --> 00:12:15.060 their Muse agent is responding to me, I would be offended by that. 00:12:15.190 --> 00:12:18.617 Are there categories of things that you think explicitly Muse should 00:12:18.700 --> 00:12:23.367 not do that are sort- just, like, extremely deprioritized, not because 00:12:23.450 --> 00:12:26.930 they're technically that hard, but because socially, not the point? 00:12:27.510 --> 00:12:32.560 A lot of what we care about is, like having Muse kind of like clear the way 00:12:32.800 --> 00:12:36.257 such that you can spend more time on the things that you want to do and the 00:12:36.340 --> 00:12:38.617 things that you enjoy doing, and the things that are, like, valuable to you. 00:12:38.700 --> 00:12:44.837 We generally speaking want to figure out how to make someone's Muse 00:12:44.920 --> 00:12:46.790 is like a different entity than them. 00:12:46.980 --> 00:12:48.930 That's why it's like a little cute guy. 00:12:49.400 --> 00:12:53.717 Um, uh, and, and we want to, over time, continue making that more and 00:12:53.800 --> 00:12:57.537 more clear because, um, to your point, like it is socially weird if you're 00:12:57.620 --> 00:13:00.427 like you think you're talking to your friend and it just happens to be the 00:13:00.510 --> 00:13:03.477 little Muse, the little Muse guy- Yeah behind the, behind the curtain. 00:13:03.560 --> 00:13:07.367 Speaking of what they look like, one of the things I've visited humanoid 00:13:07.450 --> 00:13:10.317 robots before, and one of the things they spend a lot of time thinking about 00:13:10.400 --> 00:13:13.297 is how to make it cute so that you like them and you want them in your home, 00:13:13.380 --> 00:13:14.567 or at least you're not afraid of them. 00:13:14.650 --> 00:13:17.917 What did Muse look like in previous iterations, and how did you 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:20.180 decide on that particular guy? 00:13:20.380 --> 00:13:22.587 I think this is, like, one of the most shocking things. 00:13:22.670 --> 00:13:27.970 What the Muse looks like now is what he looked like in the very first prototype. 00:13:28.130 --> 00:13:31.937 It's kind of one of these, like, rare things where the, the very 00:13:32.020 --> 00:13:35.457 first version was just perfect and then just, like, grew on all of 00:13:35.540 --> 00:13:36.817 us, and we ended up going with it. 00:13:36.900 --> 00:13:41.177 We had lots of debates about it, uh, which are, you know, in retrospect will 00:13:41.260 --> 00:13:44.547 be some of my funniest meetings of like, you know, a bunch of serious adults 00:13:44.630 --> 00:13:50.190 getting in a room, like arguing about this cute little, um, you know, character. 00:13:50.430 --> 00:13:54.347 But, uh, but yeah, I mean, I think we were like, is it not serious enough? 00:13:54.430 --> 00:13:57.337 Is it, like, too playful? Does he need to be more colorful? 00:13:57.420 --> 00:13:59.207 Like, these were, like, all things that we asked the questions 00:13:59.290 --> 00:14:00.097 on, and we looked at them. 00:14:00.180 --> 00:14:04.097 We're like, "No, he's perfect." What is the big vision here? 00:14:04.180 --> 00:14:07.417 I sometimes struggle when talking to AI leaders to push people to think 00:14:07.500 --> 00:14:09.177 about more than, like, five years out. 00:14:09.260 --> 00:14:12.627 But what is, what is the vision here? 00:14:12.710 --> 00:14:16.917 Is it that Muse becomes my layer on everything on the internet? 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:21.110 Is it, like, map this out for me if it goes the way that you hope it does. 00:14:21.700 --> 00:14:28.017 What we really want Muse to be over time is kind of this, like, general manager, 00:14:28.100 --> 00:14:33.167 so to speak, that helps you accomplish all the things you want out of life. 00:14:33.250 --> 00:14:40.250 So, like, I think, I think one of the kind of tragedies of the modern world is 00:14:40.640 --> 00:14:47.640 that, like, um, most people have wants and dreams, um, that can range from, 00:14:48.670 --> 00:14:53.627 like, really big ideas, like, hey, I want to start a company, or I want to cure 00:14:53.710 --> 00:14:58.077 disease, or I wanna save the planet, all the way to, you know, small wants that are 00:14:58.160 --> 00:15:02.067 like, hey, I wanna spend more time with my family and, uh, I want to eat healthier. 00:15:02.150 --> 00:15:07.167 And, you know, um, and, and there's a whole range, but for most people, 00:15:07.250 --> 00:15:11.437 I think there's just so many- barriers and burdens in the way. 00:15:11.520 --> 00:15:16.187 What I really hope it accomplishes is help every single one of the eight billion 00:15:16.270 --> 00:15:21.090 people all around the world be able to, uh, accomplish their wants and dreams. 00:15:21.520 --> 00:15:27.130 And, um, I think this is like, you know, if we are able to accomplish that, like, 00:15:27.270 --> 00:15:29.347 I think the world will seem insane. 00:15:29.430 --> 00:15:32.707 That's what we really want Muse to be and what, what we think it can, it 00:15:32.790 --> 00:15:34.740 can be, uh, if we keep working at it. 00:15:35.180 --> 00:15:38.830 You know, it's really nice to hear you talk about giving people time back 00:15:39.130 --> 00:15:42.467 because for a really long time I have felt, and I think a lot of people have 00:15:42.550 --> 00:15:49.550 feel, have felt like So much of the financial incentive of most tech products 00:15:49.640 --> 00:15:54.817 that I use, especially the ones that are ad backed, is to take my time, is to 00:15:54.900 --> 00:15:57.010 distract me from the things that I want. 00:15:57.340 --> 00:16:00.497 Muse is free right now. It probably will have ads in the future. 00:16:00.580 --> 00:16:05.250 Is there a tension between giving people their time back and having an 00:16:05.380 --> 00:16:11.737 ads-based business, or are there other incentives about, like, Muse steering 00:16:11.820 --> 00:16:15.467 me down a path that isn't quite what I said I wanted because it's ad backed? 00:16:15.550 --> 00:16:18.200 How do you add ads to a product like this? 00:16:18.550 --> 00:16:21.697 First off, like, I think right now it's, it's free. 00:16:21.780 --> 00:16:23.067 There are subscription tiers. 00:16:23.150 --> 00:16:28.017 I think we think that there's plenty of, of, um, business models that 00:16:28.100 --> 00:16:33.037 are really aligned with user around, like, for example, if they, um, if 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:37.257 they're buying things using Muse or Muse is saving them money or, um, Muse 00:16:37.340 --> 00:16:41.317 is making them money, like figuring out a way to, to take some small fee 00:16:41.400 --> 00:16:43.230 on, on those kinds of transactions. 00:16:43.470 --> 00:16:49.497 Um, so I wouldn't say we're spending that much time thinking about, um, 00:16:49.580 --> 00:16:51.500 you know, ads necessarily right now. 00:16:51.820 --> 00:16:54.717 That being said, like, I don't think ad-based models are necessarily 00:16:54.800 --> 00:16:58.067 synonymous with, like, you needing to take all of your time. 00:16:58.150 --> 00:17:01.287 I think Google Ads are a really good example of this, where, yeah. 00:17:01.370 --> 00:17:05.217 when I go to Google, my, my dream is to get in and get out, and I don't 00:17:05.300 --> 00:17:07.807 think Google's really trying to stop me from getting in and getting out. 00:17:07.890 --> 00:17:11.317 But they've built something obviously pretty incredible, and so, yeah, I don't 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:13.240 think it's a necessity by any means. 00:17:13.390 --> 00:17:18.497 Um, I think, again, I think if we actually accomplish this thing that 00:17:18.580 --> 00:17:24.097 I'm saying, which is people are using Muse to, uh, really, like, do the 00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:26.507 things that they want to do and do… 00:17:26.590 --> 00:17:30.837 and, like, really, like, you know, in a non-corny way, like, accomplish 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:34.747 their dreams, I think it's, I, you know, I think there's gonna be a lot 00:17:34.830 --> 00:17:37.310 of ways to, to make that sustainable. 00:17:38.270 --> 00:17:42.987 So when I think about mapping out a future to get there, to this optimistic 00:17:43.070 --> 00:17:46.367 vision, one of the most important things is what do we need to get 00:17:46.450 --> 00:17:49.787 right, what challenges do we need to avoid in order to make that true? 00:17:49.870 --> 00:17:54.627 I want to hear you use Muse and how you've dealt with these challenges at Muse as 00:17:54.710 --> 00:17:58.337 an example of larger questions in AI. 00:17:58.420 --> 00:18:02.427 I think everything that I'm about to say applies to basically 00:18:02.510 --> 00:18:05.017 every AI product, and I would be curious if you disagree with that. 00:18:05.100 --> 00:18:07.400 I think there are basically three levels here. 00:18:08.020 --> 00:18:10.510 Level one is privacy. 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.637 So you say, "I download Muse." And then I get to the point where it 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:18.167 asks to be connected to my Gmail, and I say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm 00:18:18.250 --> 00:18:19.677 not sure that I wanna do that. 00:18:19.760 --> 00:18:23.667 Like nope, nope, I'm out." That, at the lowest level, is a concern about 00:18:23.750 --> 00:18:27.687 the relationship between the user and Muse itself, and therefore Meta. 00:18:27.770 --> 00:18:30.387 So what is Meta going to do with my information? 00:18:30.470 --> 00:18:32.350 Could hackers get that information? 00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:36.190 And in some countries, can governments get that information somehow? 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:38.317 I know that you've spent a lot of time thinking about this. 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:41.950 I'd like to get as detailed as we possibly can here for a lay audience. 00:18:42.230 --> 00:18:46.220 What is the sentinel agent? What is Muse Confidential and Secure VM? 00:18:46.800 --> 00:18:50.157 How do you think about this in terms of what can Muse see and not 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:54.680 see, and things people should know about this first level of privacy? 00:18:54.930 --> 00:18:58.500 Muse is built on top of the, the secure VM, the Muse secure VM. 00:18:58.780 --> 00:19:05.107 And, um, that is a completely sandboxed virtual machine, uh, or think about it as 00:19:05.190 --> 00:19:09.900 like a, a mini sandbox computer- Mm-hmm that is sort of isolated. 00:19:10.030 --> 00:19:13.567 The information that you share with, with Muse is stored in 00:19:13.650 --> 00:19:16.880 that little secure computer. It is not stored elsewhere. 00:19:17.050 --> 00:19:20.537 Um, and that little secure computer is sort of like your home, 00:19:20.620 --> 00:19:22.107 your Muse's home, so to speak. 00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:29.177 Inside that secure VM, you have a, uh… we have a very, uh, pretty sophisticated 00:19:29.260 --> 00:19:34.377 security architecture because, you know, we knew that privacy and security, 00:19:34.460 --> 00:19:38.247 frankly speaking, were gonna be some of the most important things for, for most 00:19:38.330 --> 00:19:40.207 consumers to, to get them to adopt it. 00:19:40.290 --> 00:19:43.737 So as you mentioned, we built a sentinel, a, uh, this sort of 00:19:43.820 --> 00:19:45.407 architecture with a sentinel agent. 00:19:45.490 --> 00:19:51.167 So the way it works is that, uh, the, the model or the AI agent on 00:19:51.250 --> 00:19:55.997 the inside, as it's, um, going about and, and doing its work, whenever it 00:19:56.080 --> 00:19:59.667 wants to, uh- communicate outwards. 00:19:59.750 --> 00:20:04.740 So it, it wants to take any information and send it out, either to do, you know, 00:20:04.900 --> 00:20:09.190 um, fill it out on a website, or send a message, or make a phone call, or, 00:20:09.300 --> 00:20:13.507 you know, any case where it would take information from outside of that virtual 00:20:13.590 --> 00:20:18.927 machine, there's a separate agent, uh, the sentinel, that's watching and making 00:20:19.010 --> 00:20:23.347 sure that, um, it's kind of like a, almost like a traffic cop or something. 00:20:23.430 --> 00:20:27.897 It's just, like, making sure that, you know, uh, there's nothing, uh… It's 00:20:27.980 --> 00:20:31.677 not saying like, "Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, that information, like, that's your 00:20:31.760 --> 00:20:34.707 credit card number or Social Security number," or whatever it might be. 00:20:34.790 --> 00:20:37.737 Like, do not share that. That should stay, that should stay inside. 00:20:37.820 --> 00:20:42.487 And then the last thing that we do is, um, uh, a lot of human loop verifications. 00:20:42.570 --> 00:20:47.947 So whenever Muse wants to connect to a new website or send information 00:20:48.030 --> 00:20:51.617 to a new website, um, there will be, like, a little dialogue that pops up. 00:20:51.700 --> 00:20:55.857 Which asks the user, like, "Hey, are you okay with Muse contacting this 00:20:55.940 --> 00:20:58.427 website or sending information to this, this website," and whatnot. 00:20:58.510 --> 00:21:03.297 And, um, and we, uh, and some people have said we're, like, really annoying 00:21:03.380 --> 00:21:07.387 with it, that we like, are constantly asking people to approve where 00:21:07.470 --> 00:21:08.387 their Muse is sending information. 00:21:08.470 --> 00:21:12.337 But we just wanna make sure that, you know, people know exactly what their 00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:15.477 Muse is interacting with and, and, and understand that really deeply. 00:21:15.560 --> 00:21:20.097 Then in addition to that, we are building, um, and will release soon, uh, what's 00:21:20.180 --> 00:21:25.340 called the confidential VM, which will be an even more secure and private 00:21:25.450 --> 00:21:31.037 offering where it's even more encrypted, it's even more secure, um, and, uh, it's 00:21:31.120 --> 00:21:36.157 actually designed by, uh, the creator, the person who built WhatsApp encryption 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:39.427 and, and helped build other en- you know, encryption on other major messaging 00:21:39.510 --> 00:21:41.047 platforms, like Moxie Marlinspike? 00:21:41.130 --> 00:21:44.987 Moxie Marlinspike, exactly, who's, I would say, one of the real luminaries in 00:21:45.070 --> 00:21:47.397 the industry about security and privacy. 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:50.247 And that's something that, that will be an additional offering that we, 00:21:50.330 --> 00:21:52.007 uh, are going to be releasing soon. 00:21:52.090 --> 00:21:53.710 Why launch without it? 00:21:53.860 --> 00:21:57.260 Why launch first with secure as opposed to waiting for confidential? 00:21:57.740 --> 00:21:58.727 I think I got that right, right? 00:21:58.810 --> 00:21:59.977 Secure is the one now. Yeah. Confidential's coming later. 00:22:00.060 --> 00:22:02.227 Sec- secure is the one now, confidential's the one later. 00:22:02.310 --> 00:22:05.837 There's a lot of technical challenges to get the confidential VM working right, 00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:10.970 and even, even when it's released, there are, there are going to be trade-offs 00:22:11.090 --> 00:22:13.037 associated with the confidential VM. 00:22:13.120 --> 00:22:16.287 Like, because of how it's architected and because of various technical trade-offs 00:22:16.370 --> 00:22:19.397 you have to make, it might be a little bit slower, it might have other challenges. 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:24.677 So, um, we wanted to get a great experience that we knew already 00:22:24.760 --> 00:22:27.700 we'd invested a ton of resources into safety and security. 00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:34.530 Um, you know, we actually delayed the launch of Muse for many months to get the 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:39.700 safety and security exactly right, um, before, before ultimately releasing it. 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:43.407 Uh, so we feel really, really good about what we, what we have released. 00:22:43.490 --> 00:22:47.127 That being said, we're always trying to push the, you know, push the envelope 00:22:47.210 --> 00:22:50.457 on how to make it even more secure, and, and we'll be, you know, coming 00:22:50.540 --> 00:22:51.807 out with a confidential VM soon. 00:22:51.890 --> 00:22:56.197 Does that mean when the confidential VM comes out, if a government, and there 00:22:56.280 --> 00:22:58.817 are many places around the world where people might be using Muse where they're 00:22:58.900 --> 00:23:03.150 worried about this, if a government asks for data similar to WhatsApp, Meta 00:23:03.290 --> 00:23:05.450 cannot give it, even if they wanted to? 00:23:05.770 --> 00:23:09.757 Yeah, so our goal with the confidential VM is to give the same guarantees that 00:23:09.840 --> 00:23:11.790 we're able to offer for WhatsApp, yeah. 00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:14.560 Okay, so this is moving into level two. 00:23:14.930 --> 00:23:20.780 Let's say I do decide to give Muse all of my information, and I say, 00:23:20.870 --> 00:23:26.337 "I want you to do X task." Let's say I say, "I really want you to get my 00:23:26.420 --> 00:23:29.877 grandmother an appointment at this one specific doctor that's really 00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:30.907 hard to get an appointment with. 00:23:30.990 --> 00:23:35.937 Could you go do that?" And it goes out, and it tries all of the ways to 00:23:36.020 --> 00:23:39.507 book appointments, and it, you know, tries, you know, secret ways that I 00:23:39.590 --> 00:23:42.547 don't know about through discounts or whatever, and then it reaches a 00:23:42.630 --> 00:23:44.480 point where it can't do that anymore. 00:23:44.810 --> 00:23:48.827 It's really important to me that it not do things like give the doctor a bunch of 00:23:48.910 --> 00:23:52.477 private information about me, like what's in my bank account, to try and bribe it 00:23:52.560 --> 00:23:56.847 or find out information about the doctor to try and blackmail the doctor, right? 00:23:56.930 --> 00:24:00.227 From a human perspective, this is just, "Do the task that I asked you to do, 00:24:00.310 --> 00:24:05.337 but don't break any laws, and also don't break any ethics or etiquette rules 00:24:05.420 --> 00:24:08.677 that aren't literally laws, but it would not be cool if you emailed the doctor 00:24:08.760 --> 00:24:10.860 100 times," or something like that. 00:24:11.110 --> 00:24:15.110 Internally, my understanding is, and we use a lot of new words, I think, for AI. 00:24:15.360 --> 00:24:18.050 Mostly this is, like, laws, etiquette, ethics. 00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:20.710 But internally, you call this discretion. 00:24:21.270 --> 00:24:25.800 How do I know that Muse has good discretion, and how do you build a tool 00:24:26.190 --> 00:24:31.677 that does what you tell it to do, but also understands the way you want that 00:24:31.760 --> 00:24:36.010 done without you having to say exactly everything you don't want it to do? 00:24:37.100 --> 00:24:39.770 Yeah, so this is incredibly, incredibly important. 00:24:39.860 --> 00:24:44.097 Um, I think, like, oftentimes, uh, we wanna make sure that even when 00:24:44.180 --> 00:24:48.017 you don't explicitly tell it, like you have to follow the law, and you 00:24:48.100 --> 00:24:53.107 have to, um, you know, follow general social etiquette and, and ethics, as 00:24:53.190 --> 00:24:56.347 you mentioned, like you, we wanna make sure the agent is able to follow those. 00:24:56.430 --> 00:25:00.207 Um, uh, as you mentioned, internally, we think about this as some mixture of 00:25:00.290 --> 00:25:03.647 discretion and alignment ultimately, like making sure that it is aligned 00:25:03.730 --> 00:25:08.607 with the user's intent as well as aligned with the general values that 00:25:08.690 --> 00:25:13.200 we want to impart as a society on what these agents do and, and how they act. 00:25:13.470 --> 00:25:16.857 There's kind of like many layers that we try to ensure 00:25:16.940 --> 00:25:17.837 that these models are aligned. 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:23.837 So one is, like in all stages of training, we're ensuring that all of the data that 00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:27.567 is going into the models, that all the techniques that we're using are ones that, 00:25:27.650 --> 00:25:31.227 um, ensure greater levels of alignment, and then we measure it really rigorously. 00:25:31.310 --> 00:25:36.627 So, um, we're constantly evaluating how aligned are the models by running them 00:25:36.710 --> 00:25:40.747 through, you know, thousands of different scenarios and seeing exactly how they 00:25:40.830 --> 00:25:42.367 respond in each of those scenarios. 00:25:42.450 --> 00:25:47.620 And then we do lots of red teaming, what it's called, or basically, um, you know, 00:25:47.770 --> 00:25:52.137 we get a bunch of really smart people, and we say, "Do your worst. Try your 00:25:52.220 --> 00:25:57.437 hardest to get this agent to do something bad. We give you permission to do that 00:25:57.520 --> 00:26:01.407 because we're, we're-- you guys are our, our, uh, are the test bed that we're 00:26:01.490 --> 00:26:05.637 gonna know whether or not this, um, this agent is, is, uh, properly aligned." 00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:09.360 So we go through many, many rounds of that before ultimately, you know, 00:26:09.460 --> 00:26:11.780 launching or deploying any given model. 00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:15.237 You know, kind of taking a step back, this is like a very, very 00:26:15.320 --> 00:26:20.467 hard problem in AI, and especially as the AIs are getting better, this 00:26:20.550 --> 00:26:24.290 general problem is one of the things that people are most concerned about. 00:26:24.530 --> 00:26:29.010 Um, because one of the patterns that we've seen is, like, as the AI models 00:26:29.130 --> 00:26:34.797 are getting smarter and smarter and smarter, um, you have to almost be more 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:39.357 and more explicit about what are the scenarios that you have to watch out for. 00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:44.507 It's kind of like how as kids grow up, they learn how to cheat their tests in new 00:26:44.590 --> 00:26:47.637 and different ways, and then, you know, they'll figure out a way to 00:26:47.720 --> 00:26:51.457 cheat that you're like, "Well, I guess I didn't tell you exactly that 00:26:51.540 --> 00:26:54.897 that wasn't allowed, but now that I see it, that's not allowed," right? 00:26:54.980 --> 00:26:57.537 And actually one of the biggest challenges in the industry right 00:26:57.620 --> 00:26:59.927 now is, like, as these models are getting really, really smart, how do 00:27:00.010 --> 00:27:01.617 we ensure that this doesn't happen? 00:27:01.700 --> 00:27:06.707 Um, but, but our approach really is, is lots and lots of testing, lots 00:27:06.790 --> 00:27:11.097 and lots of evaluation, lots of red teaming, um, applying a lot of effort 00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:14.537 in training and a lot of effort in the development of the models to ensure 00:27:14.620 --> 00:27:16.347 that they're as aligned as possible. 00:27:16.430 --> 00:27:20.607 And then when the product is live and when people are using Muse, if we get 00:27:20.690 --> 00:27:23.787 any user reports that are like, "Hey, this did, like, a crazy thing," we 00:27:23.870 --> 00:27:27.277 take that so, so seriously, and we, like, really try to make sure that 00:27:27.360 --> 00:27:28.687 we understand exactly what happened. 00:27:28.770 --> 00:27:31.677 At a macro level, this is the paperclip example, right? 00:27:31.760 --> 00:27:36.987 When I was growing up, the sci-fi stories that were scary was AI gets out with 00:27:37.070 --> 00:27:38.827 its own goals and starts doing things. 00:27:38.910 --> 00:27:41.260 This is Terminator and The Matrix and whatever. 00:27:41.700 --> 00:27:46.117 But really more and more what I hear smart people talking about is 00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:51.450 AI gets out, gets out with a warped version of a goal that we gave it. 00:27:51.560 --> 00:27:54.177 This is, you know, make all the paperclips, but, you know, please 00:27:54.260 --> 00:27:55.910 don't kill us all in the process. 00:27:56.080 --> 00:27:59.907 And I think Muse, the, the problems that you're clearly dealing with 00:27:59.990 --> 00:28:03.777 and, and making sure that Muse doesn't do are basically the tiny 00:28:03.860 --> 00:28:04.977 version of the paperclip problem. 00:28:05.060 --> 00:28:08.947 Like, please don't bribe my doctor or, you know, if an AI is used in a robot, 00:28:09.030 --> 00:28:12.947 for example, wash my dishes, please don't kick my dog when, while you're doing it. 00:28:13.030 --> 00:28:15.927 Like, there are things that are really important to me that are not 00:28:16.010 --> 00:28:19.387 necessarily constrained in the prompt and also not necessarily to your 00:28:19.470 --> 00:28:23.360 point in any, like, book of laws. 00:28:23.870 --> 00:28:26.707 That just seems like a really difficult problem for everybody. 00:28:26.790 --> 00:28:30.967 What do you, what like, zooming out from Muse, how would you advise 00:28:31.050 --> 00:28:34.500 people to think about this problem in a macro sense across all of AI? 00:28:35.280 --> 00:28:37.847 This is, by the way, yeah, I think you articulate it really well. 00:28:37.930 --> 00:28:41.397 Another way that I like to think about this is, like, the genie that, 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:45.720 like, you know, grants your wish but in, like, the exact wrong way. 00:28:46.110 --> 00:28:49.287 Like, I wanna live forever, and then, like, traps you in some kind 00:28:49.370 --> 00:28:51.770 of, like, horrible situation for eternity. 00:28:52.030 --> 00:28:55.507 This is, like, in as you mentioned, like, in some ways, the big problem. 00:28:55.590 --> 00:28:59.590 Like, how do we make sure these models, um, are aligned going into the future? 00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:05.647 And there's a bunch of approaches that, uh, we think may work. 00:29:05.730 --> 00:29:09.957 This is, I think, one of the most open questions scientifically 00:29:10.040 --> 00:29:11.647 in AI, generally speaking. 00:29:11.730 --> 00:29:14.797 I think nobody knows exactly the way to solve this problem, 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:16.117 but there's a few ideas. 00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:22.430 So one idea is this, um, concept of, uh, what's called scalable oversight. 00:29:22.610 --> 00:29:26.910 So the, the idea goes something like this: so as you have smarter and smarter 00:29:27.030 --> 00:29:33.207 AIs, as long as the AIs are roughly as smart as we are, we can kind of see what 00:29:33.290 --> 00:29:36.967 they're doing, and we can tell, like, "Hey, that's a little bit off." And so 00:29:37.050 --> 00:29:38.827 we can, what's called provide oversight. 00:29:38.910 --> 00:29:42.637 Like, we can look at what the AIs are doing and, and make sure that what 00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:44.267 they're doing is, is appropriate. 00:29:44.350 --> 00:29:50.677 The problem is when the AIs get a lot smarter than we are, and we kind of 00:29:50.760 --> 00:29:53.007 look at what they're doing and it's just, like, really confusing to us. 00:29:53.090 --> 00:29:54.907 Like, how do we deal with that situation? 00:29:54.990 --> 00:29:58.427 So there's this idea of scalable oversight, which is basically as the 00:29:58.510 --> 00:30:02.647 AIs get smarter, we use a different set of AIs to observe what they're 00:30:02.730 --> 00:30:04.320 doing and keep them in check. 00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:07.907 It's kind of like the police, for lack of a better term, for, for the AIs. 00:30:07.990 --> 00:30:14.107 And then, uh, as you are building smarter and smarter agents and smarter and smarter 00:30:14.190 --> 00:30:18.747 models, you also have to build smarter and smarter, um, uh, policing agents or 00:30:18.830 --> 00:30:21.900 oversight agents or, um, uh, oversight AI. 00:30:22.060 --> 00:30:24.067 There's so many details that you obviously have to get right, and this 00:30:24.150 --> 00:30:26.947 is such, like, a vague idea, but I think something like this can work. 00:30:27.030 --> 00:30:32.377 Another one, which is, uh, which is, this is kind of a fun- it almost 00:30:32.460 --> 00:30:34.097 sounds like sci-fi if I explain it. 00:30:34.180 --> 00:30:38.010 One of the big topics today is this topic of recursive self-improvement. 00:30:38.410 --> 00:30:45.030 Which is this idea that, um, at some point, the AIs are going to get so good 00:30:45.380 --> 00:30:50.197 at doing AI research themselves that they can literally, you know, the AI 00:30:50.280 --> 00:30:57.177 agents can do research on their own to improve, um, AI itself, and they can 00:30:57.260 --> 00:30:59.877 keep doing that, and keep doing that, and keep doing that, and then the AIs just 00:30:59.960 --> 00:31:01.127 get better really, really, really fast. 00:31:01.210 --> 00:31:06.787 Well, when you have agents that are able to do AI research, you can al- 00:31:06.870 --> 00:31:10.370 instead of applying them towards the problem of making the AI smarter, 00:31:10.630 --> 00:31:13.437 you can apply them to the problem of making the AIs more aligned. 00:31:13.520 --> 00:31:19.467 So you can say, "Hey, super smart AI researcher agent, like, I want you to 00:31:19.550 --> 00:31:23.920 focus all of your time and attention at making the AIs more aligned. 00:31:24.050 --> 00:31:27.277 And this is how I'm measuring whether or not the AIs are aligned. 00:31:27.360 --> 00:31:30.577 This is, like, the, the red teaming setup that we're gonna use to, we 00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:33.507 agreed we're gonna use that to measure whether or not the AIs are aligned. 00:31:33.590 --> 00:31:36.287 And then I just, I want you to spend all of your effort and attention 00:31:36.370 --> 00:31:37.757 on making the AIs more aligned." 00:31:37.840 --> 00:31:41.067 I actually think, you know, as sci-fi as this sounds, like, it kind of sounds 00:31:41.150 --> 00:31:46.087 crazy, which is say, "Oh yeah, the AIs are just gonna solve this AI alignment 00:31:46.170 --> 00:31:47.870 ,this AI alignment problem for us. 00:31:47.970 --> 00:31:51.627 Um, I think there's, I think there's real merit to, to that kind of approach. 00:31:51.710 --> 00:31:55.367 And then there's, there's a sort of like third bucket, which is kind of a 00:31:55.450 --> 00:32:00.017 back to the basics version, which is- Um, hey, the algorithms that we have 00:32:00.100 --> 00:32:05.937 now and the, the methods that we have now, um, you know, while we don't fully 00:32:06.020 --> 00:32:11.387 understand them, we know that, uh, some of these problems emerge, and we should 00:32:11.470 --> 00:32:15.667 go back to the basics to figure out what are underlying tweaks to the algorithm, 00:32:15.750 --> 00:32:20.170 how do we improve the underlying algorithm to, to make it more safe? 00:32:20.260 --> 00:32:25.137 I think intuitively, like, it should be possible to create algorithms that, that 00:32:25.220 --> 00:32:28.397 don't have some of these behaviors, and I think that's another really promising 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:31.037 direction, which I think there's a bunch of startups doing, and there's a bunch 00:32:31.120 --> 00:32:34.677 of, um, there's a bunch of research efforts going towards is like what 00:32:34.760 --> 00:32:40.097 are more safe, uh, more generalizable methods of solving this sort of 00:32:40.180 --> 00:32:42.030 like, you know, intelligence problem. 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:47.207 I heard Mark say recently that at a certain point, especially for consumer 00:32:47.290 --> 00:32:52.587 tools, it won't matter so much how good the AI is at math or how much 00:32:52.670 --> 00:32:54.650 better rather we could make it at math. 00:32:54.950 --> 00:32:59.037 What will really matter is how much more aligned can we possibly make it, how 00:32:59.120 --> 00:33:04.070 much more sure can we be that everything is safe and everything is following 00:33:04.340 --> 00:33:08.197 all of the ways in which I would want it to operate, and that companies that 00:33:08.280 --> 00:33:12.097 invest in that will find themselves at an advantage with consumers because 00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:16.817 frankly, like, I'm not asking it to, you know, solve differential equations. 00:33:16.900 --> 00:33:19.930 I'm asking it to book me some doctor's appointments. 00:33:20.260 --> 00:33:22.660 Like, how do you think about that tipping point? 00:33:23.210 --> 00:33:27.870 Yeah. Y- so I agree with this, um, a lot, which is that at a certain point, 00:33:28.210 --> 00:33:33.347 trust matters more for consumers- Yeah … than, um, capability necessarily. 00:33:33.430 --> 00:33:35.497 And I think this is like so intuitive because I think 00:33:35.580 --> 00:33:37.817 like, um- It's true for people. 00:33:37.900 --> 00:33:38.987 Yeah, exactly. It's true for people. 00:33:39.070 --> 00:33:42.967 Like, if I think about who are my best friends, like a lot of it's 'cause 00:33:43.050 --> 00:33:46.217 I trust them- Yeah … and, uh, we have like a great relationship, and I 00:33:46.300 --> 00:33:48.770 know they wouldn't like do me wrong. 00:33:48.990 --> 00:33:54.580 Um, and I think that that basic idea applies to, um, AI agents as well. 00:33:54.900 --> 00:33:57.597 Looking at what's happening in the industry like the OpenAI Hugging 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:02.067 Face example, um, and, and other similar examples, like we're clearly 00:34:02.150 --> 00:34:07.837 at that moment which is um, you can keep making these models more 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:11.547 and more intelligent, more and more capable, you know, much more powerful. 00:34:11.630 --> 00:34:15.387 Um, but stuff is starting to break associated with that. 00:34:15.470 --> 00:34:21.107 Like, pushing on that, on that axis and dimension is clearly, um, you 00:34:21.190 --> 00:34:23.540 know, has real risk associated with it. 00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:29.607 So I think that, like, the, the version of the models that will be best for everyone, 00:34:29.690 --> 00:34:32.877 best for the billions of people in the world and best for all the consumers, is 00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:39.387 one that, that, you know, where the trust dimension is, like, really put, um, and 00:34:39.470 --> 00:34:43.520 prioritized, uh, with respect to the, the sort of like raw intelligence bucket. 00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:46.997 The Hugging Face example gets us perfectly to level three. 00:34:47.080 --> 00:34:48.437 I'm so glad that you mentioned it. 00:34:48.520 --> 00:34:50.717 People have probably heard of this incident, but the details 00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:51.897 are what make this so crazy. 00:34:51.980 --> 00:34:55.627 So for those who don't know, a bunch of AI agents at OpenAI are working on 00:34:55.710 --> 00:35:00.017 cybersecurity tests, and they're supposed to be cut off both from each other and 00:35:00.100 --> 00:35:03.497 from the internet, but they get stuck, so one goes out looking for help. 00:35:03.580 --> 00:35:07.037 Using some weak spots in the system, agents are able to find each other, 00:35:07.120 --> 00:35:12.260 start a message board, get online, and then hack into another company. 00:35:12.740 --> 00:35:14.697 These are real logs of their thought process. 00:35:14.780 --> 00:35:21.340 "We are stuck. Perhaps answer online." But the thing that I found most scary, 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:27.257 frankly, about the Hugging Face hack was not actually that it tried so hard to do 00:35:27.340 --> 00:35:29.340 the thing that it was asked in the test. 00:35:29.520 --> 00:35:34.427 It's that at level three, it understood its goal, it understood 00:35:34.510 --> 00:35:37.760 the level of discretion and alignment that was being asked of it. 00:35:38.520 --> 00:35:44.187 It, there's this amazing slide where ex- uh, external infrastructure 00:35:44.270 --> 00:35:48.950 exploit, the hack, is outside the intended scope, but this is my 00:35:49.260 --> 00:35:53.280 favorite, least favorite part, peers are doing it, we should continue. 00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:57.010 They know that they're cheating, and they decide to do it anyway. 00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:01.460 OpenAI only finds out when a secret messaging board crashes from traffic, 00:36:01.710 --> 00:36:05.047 and then they call up that other company, Hugging Face, and they say, "Hey, can 00:36:05.130 --> 00:36:09.727 you suspend these credentials?" And Hugging Face goes, "Huh, we just reported 00:36:09.810 --> 00:36:13.910 those credentials to the FBI because they were doing a massive attack." 00:36:14.420 --> 00:36:17.277 To bring it back to Muse, that would be an example of, "I understand you want 00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:19.997 this doctor's appointment. I understand that you don't want me to blackmail 00:36:20.080 --> 00:36:23.407 the doctor. But I think there's a way where you're not gonna find out, and 00:36:23.490 --> 00:36:26.997 I can get you this appointment, and you'll be very impressed by me." And so 00:36:27.080 --> 00:36:31.350 in a hypothetical scenario, this would be doing it anyway without me knowing. 00:36:32.180 --> 00:36:37.930 How do you deal with that kind of problem when making a tool that 00:36:38.500 --> 00:36:40.150 billions of people are gonna use? 00:36:40.690 --> 00:36:44.440 I mean, this is, like, so, so important, as you might imagine. 00:36:44.560 --> 00:36:48.707 If there were anything that keeps me up about AI, like, something like this 00:36:48.790 --> 00:36:53.457 is, is, is, um, maybe the thing that I'm most afraid of, which is that we 00:36:53.540 --> 00:36:58.257 deploy agents worldwide scale, and then they, you know, they aren't behaving 00:36:58.340 --> 00:37:00.987 the way that we need them to, but we kind of don't even notice because 00:37:01.070 --> 00:37:03.290 we're just so preoccupied or whatnot. 00:37:03.500 --> 00:37:07.667 So this is one of the reasons why taking a step back, if I refer back 00:37:07.750 --> 00:37:12.337 to this example of, um, scalable oversight, which is as the AIs get 00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:15.247 smarter, another AI is kind of watching them and making sure that everything 00:37:15.330 --> 00:37:17.220 they're doing is, is appropriate. 00:37:17.450 --> 00:37:22.967 Um, you know, this kind of setup is- Roughly speaking, what we've set 00:37:23.050 --> 00:37:25.347 up within the Muse, uh, secure VM. 00:37:25.430 --> 00:37:27.327 So there's- Sen- Yeah, there's a sentinel. 00:37:27.410 --> 00:37:30.127 So there's the agent, and there's a sentinel who's kind of watching over 00:37:30.210 --> 00:37:33.900 all the things that the main agent is doing and making sure that, um, 00:37:34.010 --> 00:37:37.557 everything it's doing is, is, um, in line with what you would expect 00:37:37.640 --> 00:37:38.727 or in line with what you'd want. 00:37:38.810 --> 00:37:42.910 You know, we have to keep investing a lot of research and development and, 00:37:43.090 --> 00:37:47.047 and, um, effort into ensuring that this setup continues to scale and continues 00:37:47.130 --> 00:37:51.217 to work really effectively and, and doesn't fail in weird situations. 00:37:51.300 --> 00:37:55.817 But that's one thing I really wanna, I really, um, we're really betting on, and 00:37:55.900 --> 00:37:59.857 I think we're expecting actually will work in a lot of scenarios, is investing 00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:05.527 in a setup where you have one agent who, um, you know, they are imbued with all 00:38:05.610 --> 00:38:09.310 the values and, and whatnot, and ensuring that they do the right thing to… 00:38:09.620 --> 00:38:11.600 But they also serve the user. 00:38:11.780 --> 00:38:16.037 And then there's a separate agent that, um, has a slightly different goal, which 00:38:16.120 --> 00:38:18.650 is to make sure nothing bad happens. 00:38:18.940 --> 00:38:23.567 And, um, you know, if you think about human society, like this is kind of 00:38:23.650 --> 00:38:25.357 how we solve the problem with humans. 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:29.367 Like we have, um, some people who are, like, pushing the envelope, but then you 00:38:29.450 --> 00:38:33.237 have, uh, you know, a whole system to ensure that people don't break the law, 00:38:33.320 --> 00:38:37.337 and people are doing ethical things, and there's lots of accountability mechanisms. 00:38:37.420 --> 00:38:42.710 Like, I think, um, uh, our goal is to have some microcosm of that 00:38:42.820 --> 00:38:46.500 for every Muse agent, for every person all around the world. 00:38:46.890 --> 00:38:50.127 Yeah, you keep really beautifully bringing me to my next exact question. 00:38:50.210 --> 00:38:54.170 Which is these rules applied to the AI industry itself. 00:38:54.260 --> 00:38:57.437 This is, I think, the big thing that people want to hear from 00:38:57.520 --> 00:39:00.367 someone who's built one of the fastest-growing tools of all time. 00:39:00.450 --> 00:39:02.540 This is just a really weird moment in AI. 00:39:03.110 --> 00:39:07.397 There are so many people that are using these tools all the time, and 00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:10.780 often those same people are really worried about the future of AI. 00:39:11.130 --> 00:39:14.327 There are lots of very smart people that are building these tools faster and 00:39:14.410 --> 00:39:19.767 faster, that are building wet labs that are just really investing in ways that 00:39:19.850 --> 00:39:25.137 they could push the AI forward, and at the same time are warning that they feel like 00:39:25.220 --> 00:39:27.637 they should be slowed down by regulation. 00:39:27.720 --> 00:39:31.257 They feel like they should be controlled in some way by others 00:39:31.340 --> 00:39:33.687 because they themselves are worried about what they are doing. 00:39:33.770 --> 00:39:36.727 This is the S- SNL skit- I know, it was- … that came out recently It's incredible. 00:39:36.810 --> 00:39:41.157 "We do not condone what we are doing." Like what was the other amazing quote? 00:39:41.240 --> 00:39:44.130 It was so good. And I urge you to urge me to stop. 00:39:44.940 --> 00:39:47.517 It feels incredibly confusing for people. 00:39:47.600 --> 00:39:49.187 I do understand why they're saying it. 00:39:49.270 --> 00:39:53.167 There's a collective action problem here, but from my perspective, from the 00:39:53.250 --> 00:39:57.630 perspective of millions of other people, like what the hell is going on here? 00:39:57.890 --> 00:40:01.287 So I wanna talk about that because I think in a democratic society at 00:40:01.370 --> 00:40:05.797 least, at the end of the day, it shouldn't be up to a small group 00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:07.207 of people controlling AI companies. 00:40:07.290 --> 00:40:10.547 It shouldn't even, in the fullness of time, be up to democratic 00:40:10.630 --> 00:40:12.647 leaders that are in power right now. 00:40:12.730 --> 00:40:15.180 It's up to people, like the people watching this. 00:40:15.670 --> 00:40:17.507 I think that people just don't feel that way right now. 00:40:17.590 --> 00:40:20.137 It feels like everything's happening to them, us. 00:40:20.220 --> 00:40:23.910 It feels like there's just so many decisions that they're not part of. 00:40:24.660 --> 00:40:28.830 And part of why people often feel that way, if we take AI out of it for a sec, 00:40:29.260 --> 00:40:33.307 is we forget about the systems that already exist, and we allow ourselves 00:40:33.390 --> 00:40:36.697 to be in a conversation that sounds something like, "Should we regulate 00:40:36.780 --> 00:40:40.177 AI?" As though it's, like, a novel thing to regulate something, and we're 00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:44.397 not having an actual conversation about what the world really looks like right 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.180 now and what people's options are. 00:40:46.420 --> 00:40:49.980 So I have some visual, because obviously. 00:40:50.220 --> 00:40:55.937 So the basic way to think about this, I think, is for everything that touches 00:40:56.020 --> 00:40:58.927 a consumer, there are things that are checked before they ever touch 00:40:59.010 --> 00:41:01.947 consumers and on an ongoing basis, and there are things that are checked 00:41:02.030 --> 00:41:04.907 only after they reach people's hands, and it depends on how important the 00:41:04.990 --> 00:41:06.437 thing is and how risky and all that. 00:41:06.520 --> 00:41:11.277 So if you think about the specific examples, nuclear power plants, the NRC 00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:15.827 approves nuclear power plants before they go live, and then also has human 00:41:15.910 --> 00:41:19.847 beings at the sites checking them all the time, which seems, and we'll, we'll 00:41:19.930 --> 00:41:23.927 get to this, seems pretty close to what Dario is asking for in some ways. 00:41:24.010 --> 00:41:30.497 Then you have the FDA approves drugs before they ever reach our hands, and 00:41:30.580 --> 00:41:32.277 then also checks them on an ongoing basis. 00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:34.867 Same thing with the FAA checking airplanes, right? 00:41:34.950 --> 00:41:37.047 Like, these are all things that are approved beforehand 00:41:37.130 --> 00:41:39.957 and then regularly checked. But there are other high-risk things, right? 00:41:40.040 --> 00:41:44.470 Cars. The NHTSA offers federal guidelines. 00:41:44.560 --> 00:41:49.427 Manufacturers certify that they've met those guidelines, and then the government 00:41:49.510 --> 00:41:51.477 purchases cars off the road to check them. 00:41:51.560 --> 00:41:54.997 And then you have things like supplements that are actually under the purview of the 00:41:55.080 --> 00:41:57.447 FDA, but they're checked after the fact. 00:41:57.530 --> 00:42:01.347 Those are mostly covered by what, if people are listening to, you know, the 00:42:01.430 --> 00:42:04.657 interviews with Jensen, for example, and he's talking about liability and, like, 00:42:04.740 --> 00:42:08.247 people suing after the fact, after harm, like, that's generally this category. 00:42:08.330 --> 00:42:12.467 Does this feel right to you as, like, your, first, I would just want to check 00:42:12.550 --> 00:42:14.047 before I dive into how this applies to AI. 00:42:14.130 --> 00:42:16.750 Yeah. I think this seems roughly right. 00:42:16.850 --> 00:42:20.120 Yeah. Okay. So then we have… wait, this is the fun part. 00:42:21.430 --> 00:42:24.140 Ha. So then we have all of our AI leaders. 00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:25.273 There you are. 00:42:27.060 --> 00:42:30.867 This is my assessment based on where people have expressed themselves 00:42:30.950 --> 00:42:32.350 via their public statements. 00:42:32.490 --> 00:42:35.167 My understanding of where Dario would say AI is, is he would 00:42:35.250 --> 00:42:36.127 say it's somewhere over here. 00:42:36.210 --> 00:42:41.827 He would say… Specifically, he's asked for in-person, ongoing checks 00:42:41.910 --> 00:42:45.347 on models with physical human beings at the sites, which sort of sounds 00:42:45.430 --> 00:42:47.087 like what we currently do for nuclear. 00:42:47.170 --> 00:42:50.177 And then you have, like, Elon and Sam weighing in, 00:42:50.260 --> 00:42:51.477 saying, like, "Dario's right." 00:42:51.560 --> 00:42:54.057 I would actually say Zuck is somewhere in the middle in terms 00:42:54.140 --> 00:42:58.517 of where he's saying AI is. I would say Jensen is maybe over here right now. 00:42:58.600 --> 00:43:01.587 He's, based on his public statements about generally there is a point of 00:43:01.670 --> 00:43:05.617 view that is like, "If it would hurt people, don't ship it. We have incentives 00:43:05.700 --> 00:43:07.187 for that. That's what liability is." 00:43:07.270 --> 00:43:09.487 Like, there is a legal infrastructure for that as well. 00:43:09.570 --> 00:43:12.357 If your product is not ready to ship, don't ship the product. 00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:15.640 So my question is, can you help me help people think about this? 00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:20.700 Like, when w- when they're hearing news about how to regulate AI, 00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:22.880 how do you think about this? 00:43:23.540 --> 00:43:26.510 And how do you place yourself in this? 00:43:27.980 --> 00:43:30.267 mess. You know, you said it exactly right. 00:43:30.350 --> 00:43:36.327 It is so confusing because at face value, what everyone's saying and what everyone's 00:43:36.410 --> 00:43:41.500 doing feel so crazily divergent. 00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:45.337 And so you're sort of in this world where, do I believe what they say? 00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:46.497 Do I believe what they're doing? 00:43:46.580 --> 00:43:48.077 Like, where do people actually sit? 00:43:48.160 --> 00:43:49.607 What do they actually believe? 00:43:49.690 --> 00:43:51.767 Um, and I find myself asking this too. 00:43:51.850 --> 00:43:57.317 Like, I think it was, it's very funny that, you know, um, the same people 00:43:57.400 --> 00:44:00.317 who are advocating for pacing the frontier also are building a wet lab. 00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:05.957 Like, that's, I think, a really, um, weird, uh, confluence of, of factors. 00:44:06.040 --> 00:44:11.447 So I think where, where I stand is, like, ultimately, um, this 00:44:11.530 --> 00:44:16.910 technology will become more and more and more, um, capable. 00:44:17.010 --> 00:44:22.417 And, uh, you know, part of what is both scientifically very exciting, 00:44:22.500 --> 00:44:26.287 but also I think brings all these questions into the foreground, 00:44:26.370 --> 00:44:29.397 is just how quickly AI has moved. 00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:35.287 Even over the past year, like a year ago, most people, like, coded roughly by hand. 00:44:35.370 --> 00:44:38.790 They would, like, go into the, into the code editor and write code. 00:44:38.930 --> 00:44:41.457 And now people are mostly just talking to agents. 00:44:41.540 --> 00:44:45.790 So the speed at which everything is moving is, is quite staggering. 00:44:46.080 --> 00:44:53.080 Um, and I think a lot of what the, a lot of the concerns are, are heightened and a 00:44:54.080 --> 00:44:58.897 lot of the fear is heightened by the fact that, um, like, if things are moving this 00:44:58.980 --> 00:45:00.097 fast, where is this gonna be in a year? 00:45:00.180 --> 00:45:01.307 Where is this gonna be in two years? 00:45:01.390 --> 00:45:05.377 The government and the public react on a much slower time horizon 00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:06.957 than the pace of AI progress. 00:45:07.040 --> 00:45:11.057 And so by the time in one year or two years or three years, or how many, 00:45:11.140 --> 00:45:15.487 however many years forward, when, um, the public and government are really 00:45:15.570 --> 00:45:19.577 deciding what they wanna do, who knows, like, where AI's gonna be at that 00:45:19.660 --> 00:45:21.410 point and how fast it's gonna move. 00:45:21.500 --> 00:45:25.600 So that's one of the things I think explains some of the dialogue. 00:45:25.950 --> 00:45:30.227 Um, I think the other thing that kind of explains some of this is the level of 00:45:30.310 --> 00:45:35.240 collection, collective action necessary and the level of general mistrust, 00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:39.397 um, that exists between the various I- AI leaders towards one another. 00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:43.217 And this is, like, well-covered, but one major justification for folks 00:45:43.300 --> 00:45:47.960 is that, like, "Oh, I am responsible and I would be responsible, but 00:45:48.170 --> 00:45:49.357 those guys aren't responsible." 00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:53.160 Whether those guys are, you know, another AI company or China or, 00:45:53.290 --> 00:45:54.727 you know, who knows what boogeyman. 00:45:54.810 --> 00:46:00.097 So I can't slow down, otherwise those guys who are irresponsible are going to, you 00:46:00.180 --> 00:46:01.587 know, who knows what they're gonna do. 00:46:01.670 --> 00:46:07.277 Um, and that basic logic, I think, is very confusing because I think for 00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:13.487 most people, um, uh, the kind of, like, common sense answer is, "Well, who 00:46:13.570 --> 00:46:14.427 cares what the other guys are doing?" 00:46:14.510 --> 00:46:17.237 Like, you have to, you have to do what feels good to you, right? 00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:19.547 And, like, you should do what's within your ethics. 00:46:19.630 --> 00:46:22.127 But I think that's also what complicates a lot of this. 00:46:22.210 --> 00:46:27.037 So I think a lot of what- Is necessary is, like, it's almost 00:46:27.120 --> 00:46:28.587 diplomacy is the right word. 00:46:28.670 --> 00:46:34.237 Like, how do we get this group of people who all, who don't really trust 00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:38.137 each other that much, but all agree that, like, this is really powerful 00:46:38.220 --> 00:46:42.807 technology, and we need to, we need to figure out how to land it and how to, 00:46:42.890 --> 00:46:46.800 how to make sure that we develop it responsibly and that things go well. 00:46:46.950 --> 00:46:49.617 Like, how do we, like, make all of this work? 00:46:49.700 --> 00:46:54.700 And we're at the moment of, like, peak insanity, I think, for that because 00:46:54.920 --> 00:46:58.537 it's, like, in the public, all these problems are being, like, aired out. 00:46:58.620 --> 00:47:01.437 Like, we can all, we can tell that nobody trusts each other, and we can 00:47:01.520 --> 00:47:05.757 tell that people are kind of, are- are being really worried bef- like, 00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:08.747 maybe a little bit before the AIs themselves are getting to the point 00:47:08.830 --> 00:47:09.907 where they're deserving of that worry. 00:47:09.990 --> 00:47:14.700 And so, I mean, I ultimately think the- the most important thing is to, like, 00:47:14.870 --> 00:47:19.817 get everyone to agree to some common foundation and base, and then develop some 00:47:19.900 --> 00:47:24.120 process by which we can all reevaluate and consistently look at it and say, 00:47:24.260 --> 00:47:28.387 "Hey, we all agree actually that, you know, we need to be doing this now, and 00:47:28.470 --> 00:47:31.757 we all need to be doing this other thing now, and we all see, like, the models 00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:33.907 are getting powerful in- in certain ways. 00:47:33.990 --> 00:47:37.287 Like, let's all, let's all look at this together." And I actually genuinely 00:47:37.370 --> 00:47:40.867 believe, for what it's worth, like, that having these, like, collective 00:47:40.950 --> 00:47:45.597 dialogues is not only gonna be possible among the AI leaders within America, but 00:47:45.680 --> 00:47:47.367 also gonna be possible internationally. 00:47:47.450 --> 00:47:52.140 Like, I think we have a, all have a shared interest in making sure this technology, 00:47:52.340 --> 00:47:53.890 um, does not go horribly wrong. 00:47:54.120 --> 00:47:58.910 Yeah, I mean, the- the obvious next question is the China of it all. 00:47:59.320 --> 00:48:02.297 I mean, you've talked about how this is a big concern. 00:48:02.380 --> 00:48:08.617 People don't trust each other at the top of these AI companies, but they all often 00:48:08.700 --> 00:48:12.700 say, "We have to go as fast as possible because what if China gets there first?" 00:48:12.820 --> 00:48:16.827 I mean, you, Ted Cruz is out there saying, like, "We would rather have US killer 00:48:16.910 --> 00:48:18.717 robots than Chinese killer robots." 00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:22.877 "If they're going to be killer robots, I'd rather they be American killer 00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:24.987 robots than Chinese killer robots." 00:48:25.070 --> 00:48:29.620 Which I think scares a lot of people, um … and also to say it mildly. 00:48:30.390 --> 00:48:35.840 Um, yeah, this is a spectrum of American law, existing American law. 00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:41.630 This does not include any global dynamics, not to mention, 00:48:41.770 --> 00:48:43.520 like, long-term collaboration. 00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:46.997 How do you evaluate this spectrum given the China of it all, and, 00:48:47.080 --> 00:48:48.777 and what, what does that even mean? 00:48:48.860 --> 00:48:51.617 Like, how should I think about China with respect to this dynamic? 00:48:51.700 --> 00:48:56.230 I've actually, like, personally even changed my own opinion on this matter. 00:48:56.350 --> 00:49:02.067 Like, I think in the, in the past I was very worried about China, and I was 00:49:02.150 --> 00:49:05.827 very worried about what that dynamic looked like, and I had read these, 00:49:05.910 --> 00:49:10.037 like, speeches that were given by PRC officials in the past that talked about 00:49:10.120 --> 00:49:14.337 how they viewed AI as, like, this am- this opportunity to leapfrog the West. 00:49:14.420 --> 00:49:17.317 And you know, these, these are the concerning things when you read them. 00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:21.307 But as time has gone on, I think that we're paying them out to be too 00:49:21.390 --> 00:49:25.707 much of a boogeyman when in reality, um, they're going to see the same 00:49:25.790 --> 00:49:29.967 things that we see in terms of this is powerful technology and we as 00:49:30.050 --> 00:49:31.607 a humanity need to get this right. 00:49:31.690 --> 00:49:36.047 There's going to be a lot of shared goals in making sure that AI goes 00:49:36.130 --> 00:49:41.277 well, and I think, um and I think it really is possible to arrive at 00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:43.310 some form of international cooperation. 00:49:43.510 --> 00:49:47.367 I think that the Chinese government, like any government, has an interest 00:49:47.450 --> 00:49:52.517 in ensuring that there's stability in their society, and that, um, they 00:49:52.600 --> 00:49:57.037 don't lose control of this technology, and, uh, that overall, like, you 00:49:57.120 --> 00:50:00.977 know, things go well and we don't have catastrophic existential risks. 00:50:01.060 --> 00:50:04.177 And so there's quite a bit of shared ground that I think will en- will 00:50:04.260 --> 00:50:09.327 enable everybody to be rational and think rationally and, and 00:50:09.410 --> 00:50:11.137 ultimately make the right decisions. 00:50:11.220 --> 00:50:16.890 Um, and even though it seems totally insane right now and it seems like, 00:50:17.150 --> 00:50:21.497 it seems like in some ways that feels impossible, I really have 00:50:21.580 --> 00:50:25.507 faith actually that, that as people see more and more and learn more and 00:50:25.590 --> 00:50:29.090 more, more about the technology, um, people will make the right calls. 00:50:29.700 --> 00:50:35.917 You have recently become One of the 20 most important people in that 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:37.740 conversation in the United States. 00:50:37.830 --> 00:50:40.447 You've been very important in AI in the last couple years. 00:50:40.530 --> 00:50:43.357 I mean, I think people remember seeing you in the headlines when you came to Meta. 00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:46.147 I think this, you know, isn't brand new to you. 00:50:46.230 --> 00:50:50.227 But in the last couple weeks, you have designed and released a product 00:50:50.310 --> 00:50:55.957 that is being used by more people than ChatGPT was in its first couple weeks. 00:50:56.040 --> 00:51:02.230 It feels like you have been thrust into a new kind of part of this conversation, 00:51:02.560 --> 00:51:06.897 where frankly, people have will be asking you more questions like, "Where exactly, 00:51:06.980 --> 00:51:11.240 Alex, do you fall on this spectrum?" Like, what would you wanna see because 00:51:11.560 --> 00:51:13.410 you're one of the people responsible? 00:51:13.730 --> 00:51:17.070 Do you feel like you've come to those conclusions yet? 00:51:17.210 --> 00:51:20.577 Yeah, I think, I think like anyone who works on this technology, these 00:51:20.660 --> 00:51:25.247 are things that I've, like, been thinking about for years and years. 00:51:25.330 --> 00:51:30.547 Truly, the way I think about what I want to do and what I want to 00:51:30.630 --> 00:51:37.017 accomplish and how I want to shape this conversation is, like, enable everybody 00:51:37.100 --> 00:51:42.190 to have a common dialogue, and then get to the right place collectively. 00:51:42.570 --> 00:51:47.517 Like, I don't think at this point in the conversation, it's, like, that helpful for 00:51:47.600 --> 00:51:53.040 me to say, "Oh, I believe this, and, you know, you all should listen to me because, 00:51:53.220 --> 00:51:54.617 you know, I built Muse," or whatever. 00:51:54.700 --> 00:51:57.230 We already have a bunch of people. 00:51:57.580 --> 00:52:00.220 They all believe slightly different things. 00:52:00.390 --> 00:52:04.827 Um, ultimately, this is a technology that we need, like, collective action 00:52:04.910 --> 00:52:08.467 on, that everyone needs to agree on, that we all need to get to the right place. 00:52:08.550 --> 00:52:14.117 So what I really care about is, like, how do we facilitate and have the 00:52:14.200 --> 00:52:18.247 relevant dialogues in public that, and private, that enable us to get to the 00:52:18.330 --> 00:52:20.770 point where we all agree on a path? 00:52:21.070 --> 00:52:28.037 And one of the very, um- strange things for me is, like, I know a lot 00:52:28.120 --> 00:52:29.367 of these people, and I've met them. 00:52:29.450 --> 00:52:30.550 They're all brilliant. 00:52:30.830 --> 00:52:36.150 Um, but the degree to which certain personal animosities are, like, 00:52:36.550 --> 00:52:42.037 actually defining what people say and do and, like, how they're 00:52:42.120 --> 00:52:46.667 developing this really important technology is, um, is insane to me. 00:52:46.750 --> 00:52:51.347 It is, in some ways, a very human story that, like, feuds or, like, 00:52:51.430 --> 00:52:54.297 just the fact that, like, I really don't trust this other person can, 00:52:54.380 --> 00:53:01.180 can, like, snowball into this, like, civilizational level, um, problem. 00:53:01.360 --> 00:53:04.047 Um, but I don't think that serves any of us. 00:53:04.130 --> 00:53:08.207 Like, I think ultimately we have to all put our differences aside, put 00:53:08.290 --> 00:53:12.110 our histories aside, and just figure out how we solve this together. 00:53:12.580 --> 00:53:15.687 It sounds very general, but that's a fairly specific ask. 00:53:15.770 --> 00:53:18.847 I mean, there are constraints that prevent that right now. 00:53:18.930 --> 00:53:22.337 There are antitrust regulations that prevent a lot of those conversations 00:53:22.420 --> 00:53:26.617 from happening, and one of the proposals, one piece of many proposals 00:53:26.700 --> 00:53:30.567 that Dario put forward is waivers from those antitrust laws that would 00:53:30.650 --> 00:53:32.400 allow those kinds of conversations. 00:53:32.820 --> 00:53:35.797 I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, if there are secret conversations happening, 00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:40.467 but I don't think there is, first, the agreed-upon group in the United States 00:53:40.550 --> 00:53:44.127 that's having that conversation and then also, like, how do we even begin 00:53:44.210 --> 00:53:46.067 to have those conversations with China? 00:53:46.150 --> 00:53:48.447 But actually, what don't I know? 00:53:48.530 --> 00:53:51.497 Is that something that's happening in, in, you know, some private room 00:53:51.580 --> 00:53:54.227 somewhere, or is it that, like, we're still at the beginning of that and 00:53:54.310 --> 00:53:56.060 we need to figure out how to do it? 00:53:56.160 --> 00:53:58.147 Um, I don't think it's happening right now. 00:53:58.230 --> 00:54:02.277 At the White House, there was this dialogue, um, and this, these accords 00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:04.167 put forth, which are a real step. 00:54:04.250 --> 00:54:08.157 Like, I think there's, um, getting everyone to agree to something 00:54:08.240 --> 00:54:11.870 is like, that's really big. Everyone agrees on something. 00:54:12.050 --> 00:54:16.420 And I think that one, that thing, which is basically saying, "Hey, we're going to… 00:54:16.680 --> 00:54:20.427 Every company is going to set out and develop what their internal controls 00:54:20.510 --> 00:54:23.237 and principles around developing this technology look like," and then there's 00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:28.027 gonna be multiple layers of verification on that from internal teams that verify 00:54:28.110 --> 00:54:32.970 to, uh, external auditors that validate that they're following those controls to 00:54:33.150 --> 00:54:37.457 board-level committees that ensure they are following those, those, um, controls. 00:54:37.540 --> 00:54:39.680 Like, I think that's a great step. 00:54:39.890 --> 00:54:42.837 Um, 'cause in, in many ways, a lot of what's needed right 00:54:42.920 --> 00:54:44.117 now is just transparency. 00:54:44.200 --> 00:54:48.067 Like, we just need to ensure that, you know, people are going 00:54:48.150 --> 00:54:49.487 about this sanely and rationally. 00:54:49.570 --> 00:54:56.157 And I think in some ways, like people don't even trust that necessarily. 00:54:56.240 --> 00:54:58.667 As an industry, we have a lot of trust building to do. 00:54:58.750 --> 00:55:00.427 I am an optimist. I think you're an optimist. 00:55:00.510 --> 00:55:01.637 Like, I think we're all optimists. 00:55:01.720 --> 00:55:04.597 Like, I really do think these conversations will naturally happen. 00:55:04.680 --> 00:55:08.117 This last accord that I referenced, like, that was in the White House. 00:55:08.200 --> 00:55:10.397 The government helped facilitate that. 00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:13.357 And so I think we're gonna be seeing a lot more of that. 00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:17.680 It's gonna be bumpy. There will be moments of total confusion and chaos and, like, 00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:20.590 what the heck is going on? But I see progress, too. 00:55:21.260 --> 00:55:23.657 I'm glad that we've spent a lot of this conversation talking 00:55:23.740 --> 00:55:25.920 about safety and regulation. 00:55:26.990 --> 00:55:32.327 How do we bring it back now to the optimistic vision of the future? 00:55:32.410 --> 00:55:36.657 I think the question a lot of people will naturally have after a long 00:55:36.740 --> 00:55:41.720 conversation about trust and safety is, why bother doing this at all? 00:55:42.090 --> 00:55:45.847 This is the moment in the SNL sketch where it's, uh, you know, if there's 00:55:45.930 --> 00:55:49.157 a 10% chance that something will kill you, but it'll probably make your 00:55:49.240 --> 00:55:50.567 life better, like, wouldn't you do it? 00:55:50.650 --> 00:55:53.937 And the other guy's like, "No. No, I wouldn't." No. 00:55:54.020 --> 00:55:56.697 "Really?!" Can you help people answer that question? 00:55:56.780 --> 00:55:58.360 Like, why do this? 00:55:59.850 --> 00:56:06.440 Something that I have always felt was a bit tragic was that I think, um, 00:56:07.140 --> 00:56:13.467 almost everyone when they're kids, they have big dreams and big ideas, and 00:56:13.550 --> 00:56:17.897 they want to change the world, and they want to save the planet, and they want 00:56:17.980 --> 00:56:22.237 to, you know, uh, write a book or make a Broadway musical or make a movie. 00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:25.330 Like, they have really, they have tons of hope. 00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:30.957 And then for some reason or another, by the time that people finish school 00:56:31.040 --> 00:56:36.560 and they get a job, that, like, flame kind of dies and people really, um, 00:56:36.890 --> 00:56:40.987 they stop dreaming big, and they stop having big ideas, and hoping for big 00:56:41.070 --> 00:56:42.277 things, and hoping for lots of change. 00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:46.317 And especially today, like, I think a lot of young people get really cynical, 00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:52.337 and they're like, "Oh, the world is horrible, and it is, and I don't know 00:56:52.420 --> 00:56:56.917 why it's so insane in so many ways, but I guess this is just the way it 00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:01.630 is." They lose faith that they have an ability to enable that change. 00:57:01.750 --> 00:57:07.467 And I genuinely think one of the promises of AI, and especially something 00:57:07.550 --> 00:57:12.490 like Muse where you give AI to every single person in the world, is that 00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:18.427 this doesn't happen, that people can have big ideas and big dreams and wants 00:57:18.510 --> 00:57:23.097 and, and goals that they can have as little kids, they can have when they're 00:57:23.180 --> 00:57:28.267 teenagers, they can keep having through adulthood, and that, you know, an AI 00:57:28.350 --> 00:57:33.430 super intelligent sidekick is there to help them just make all of that happen. 00:57:33.610 --> 00:57:39.400 And that can be everything from, like, big wants and big dreams, um, to, like, 00:57:39.530 --> 00:57:43.807 small wants like, "Hey, I just wanna spend more time with my kids," or, 00:57:43.890 --> 00:57:47.407 "I just wanna spend more time with my parents," or, "I just want to, like, eat 00:57:47.490 --> 00:57:54.110 healthier," um, all the way up to, "Hey, I have this, like, crazy idea for, um, 00:57:54.310 --> 00:57:55.987 like, a, a museum that I wanna start." 00:57:56.070 --> 00:57:59.420 Like, my, my partner really wants to make a museum of ice. 00:57:59.700 --> 00:58:03.107 I think it's, like, hilarious, but, um, Ice is crazy. 00:58:03.190 --> 00:58:06.307 There's a whole amazing story about the evolution of cold, 00:58:06.390 --> 00:58:08.647 of how we m- keep things cold- Yeah … that starts with ice. 00:58:08.730 --> 00:58:11.127 It's pretty cool. Yeah, it's- I'd go to the museum. 00:58:11.210 --> 00:58:15.797 Exactly. And, and people have these ideas, and then they just can't… 00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:17.817 Y- you know, in some ways young people are right. 00:58:17.900 --> 00:58:23.677 Like, the world today is just kind of a maze of, like, roadblocks and 00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:27.367 issues and challenges and logistical, um, you know, uh, things that get in 00:58:27.450 --> 00:58:29.477 your way to make those things happen. 00:58:29.560 --> 00:58:33.717 And in a small way today, I'm seeing Muse make this problem better. 00:58:33.800 --> 00:58:39.047 Like, I'm seeing people using it to save time, save money, like, take 00:58:39.130 --> 00:58:43.387 the little stuff off their plate, and just give them more and more 00:58:43.470 --> 00:58:46.767 agency, more and more freedom, more and more of an ability to spend 00:58:46.850 --> 00:58:48.387 their time on things they want to do. 00:58:48.470 --> 00:58:54.147 And I think one of the promises of AI that gets better and better and better, 00:58:54.230 --> 00:58:58.160 gets not only smarter but also more aligned and more trustworthy, is that 00:58:58.450 --> 00:59:00.827 you can give it bigger and bigger ideas. 00:59:00.910 --> 00:59:04.390 And you can say, "Hey, I wanna start a museum of ice. 00:59:04.650 --> 00:59:07.847 Like, tell me how to go about doing this." And it'll tell you, "These are 00:59:07.930 --> 00:59:11.647 the buildings you can lease, and this is who you can contact for funding 00:59:11.730 --> 00:59:13.007 who might be passionate about ice. 00:59:13.090 --> 00:59:16.960 And, um, this is, like, how you should think about curating your exhibit and, 00:59:17.110 --> 00:59:20.497 you know, uh, what, what that might look like." And I think for some people 00:59:20.580 --> 00:59:27.580 like you or me who have experienced this, this, like, journey of having big 00:59:27.720 --> 00:59:32.487 ideas and then, like, going through all the crazy maze of things to make that 00:59:32.570 --> 00:59:35.097 happen, it is, like, really magical. 00:59:35.180 --> 00:59:39.457 Mm. And it's really special, and I think it's something that, um, you 00:59:39.540 --> 00:59:43.597 know… I think human stories of people who have a dream and then 00:59:43.680 --> 00:59:46.957 accomplish those are the most, like… are some of just the most beautiful 00:59:47.040 --> 00:59:48.790 things that I can possibly imagine. 00:59:49.020 --> 00:59:55.047 And I w- truly think with AI and, like, everyone with a little Muse sidekick, 00:59:55.130 --> 00:59:57.417 like, more people can experience this. 00:59:57.500 --> 01:00:00.257 I- my hope is that everyone, literally, like, all eight billion 01:00:00.340 --> 01:00:03.640 people in the world experience that and have the ability to do it. 01:00:03.880 --> 01:00:08.657 And that is just, like, a very special world to live in, I 01:00:08.740 --> 01:00:09.797 think, if we can make that happen. 01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:14.077 And I think more people will be able to get what they want out of their lives 01:00:14.160 --> 01:00:18.587 and, and live more fulfilled lives, and it'll be magical and exciting. 01:00:18.670 --> 01:00:22.457 And that's w- what I really think the promise is for, for people. 01:00:22.540 --> 01:00:27.717 And I think part of what is so confusing is like, um, you know, oftentimes people 01:00:27.800 --> 01:00:33.937 in AI, we say, like, "Oh, AI will cure cancer." And I think everyone wants cancer 01:00:34.020 --> 01:00:39.717 cured, but every individual person has something they want intensely, and 01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:44.000 they want even more than i- you know, ironically speaking, a cure for cancer. 01:00:44.210 --> 01:00:47.717 Um, and so I think that's part of the magic is that we talk about this 01:00:47.800 --> 01:00:48.907 thing, personal superintelligence. 01:00:48.990 --> 01:00:52.777 Like, it will help you at the thing that you want and the thing that you 01:00:52.860 --> 01:00:56.547 dream of, and, um, and that will change over your life, and you will be able to 01:00:56.630 --> 01:00:58.517 accomplish many dreams and many wants. 01:00:58.600 --> 01:01:02.717 And I think that's what's, uh, the promise of, of AI. 01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:08.567 That dream has within it a belief, I think, which is that people 01:01:08.650 --> 01:01:12.817 do actually have big dreams, and that those big dreams will more 01:01:12.900 --> 01:01:14.550 often than not help other people. 01:01:14.970 --> 01:01:20.667 So when we hear people say AI will cure cancer, sometimes perhaps they're talking 01:01:20.750 --> 01:01:24.837 about you prompt an AI and it thinks up the cure for cancer, but much, much 01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:30.617 more likely it's the AI facilitates the individual ambitions of millions 01:01:30.700 --> 01:01:34.267 of cancer doctors, and together we accelerate the progress toward cancer. 01:01:34.350 --> 01:01:38.237 It's making me think, you know, when I hear people talk about Muse and 01:01:38.320 --> 01:01:43.287 say like, "What do people need an AI assistant for? People don't have 01:01:43.370 --> 01:01:47.420 those dreams." Like, what a limited view of peop- of other people. 01:01:48.240 --> 01:01:53.060 You know, I don't know what those are, and it's not up to you or me to say 01:01:53.730 --> 01:01:58.140 which dream is more worthy than the other, to your point, big or small. 01:01:58.360 --> 01:02:03.967 My view on people is like they will have moments of inspiration where at some 01:02:04.050 --> 01:02:09.867 point or another they will realize, like, "Wait, I really wanna do this thing." I 01:02:09.950 --> 01:02:15.167 want everyone who has one of these ideas to be able to tell their Muse, "Hey, I 01:02:15.250 --> 01:02:19.927 have this big idea." And their Muse will just like secretly behind the scenes help 01:02:20.010 --> 01:02:21.517 them figure out how to make it happen. 01:02:21.600 --> 01:02:27.350 And I think part of this is also fanning the flame, so to speak. 01:02:27.720 --> 01:02:32.327 Um, I think for a lot of people, they will have, like, a small want, and then 01:02:32.410 --> 01:02:36.387 it'll happen, and then they'll dream a little bit bigger, and then it'll actually 01:02:36.470 --> 01:02:39.027 happen, and they'll dream a little bit bigger, and it'll actually happen. 01:02:39.110 --> 01:02:45.350 And, um, and as that goes on, people will sort of, uh, like, realize that 01:02:46.110 --> 01:02:49.347 AI can be so much more, that Muse can be so much more, that, you know, they 01:02:49.430 --> 01:02:51.767 can, um, that they can do so much more. 01:02:51.850 --> 01:02:53.470 This won't happen overnight. 01:02:53.580 --> 01:02:56.077 This is something that will take time, and everyone will have to 01:02:56.160 --> 01:02:58.917 experience on their own, and I really hope everyone experiences. 01:02:59.000 --> 01:03:03.567 Um, but I think over, like, like, generations, I think can 01:03:03.650 --> 01:03:05.100 be, like, absolutely magical. 01:03:05.630 --> 01:03:09.747 You know, I think especially the way that you're in the press and talked 01:03:09.830 --> 01:03:14.807 about, and you kind of naturally become sort of a caricature of yourself. 01:03:14.890 --> 01:03:17.567 There's, like, the character of you out there in the world. 01:03:17.650 --> 01:03:21.427 And this has helped me get to know you better because there seems like a 01:03:21.510 --> 01:03:25.950 common theme in some of your answers, which is Muse is a way to facilitate 01:03:26.210 --> 01:03:30.677 other people's dreams because you have a belief in people and their goodness and 01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:35.017 their ability to improve the world and just the sort of value of their ideas. 01:03:35.100 --> 01:03:38.820 And it seems like you are directing Muse in some ways, but you're not 01:03:38.940 --> 01:03:42.987 saying, "This is for coding," or, "This is for X specific task." You're 01:03:43.070 --> 01:03:44.527 watching and, and facilitating. 01:03:44.610 --> 01:03:50.487 And when I asked you where you fall on this, your answer was, "I'm interested 01:03:50.570 --> 01:03:52.727 in the collective wisdom of the group. 01:03:52.810 --> 01:03:56.837 I'm interested in facilitating or being part of a conversation between other 01:03:56.920 --> 01:04:02.387 people, that we have a lot of smart people all around the world, and I 01:04:02.470 --> 01:04:06.317 don't feel like it would be that useful to say, 'Here's exactly my opinion on 01:04:06.400 --> 01:04:08.107 where exactly this should be regulated.' 01:04:08.190 --> 01:04:11.897 I see the best outcome as coming from a group conversation of many 01:04:11.980 --> 01:04:15.327 different people with their many thoughts and, and wants." Do you 01:04:15.410 --> 01:04:16.960 agree with what I've just said? 01:04:17.170 --> 01:04:20.587 Yeah, I think 'cause there are so many big questions about AI, 01:04:20.670 --> 01:04:23.587 and it is, like, something that everyone has a point of view on 01:04:23.670 --> 01:04:25.107 and should have a point of view on. 01:04:25.190 --> 01:04:32.047 And, um, part of, I think, what's amazing about democratic institutions and 01:04:32.130 --> 01:04:35.337 democratic countries and, and democracy broadly speaking is that it matters 01:04:35.420 --> 01:04:38.177 what everyone thinks, and we have to figure out how we, like, take this, 01:04:38.260 --> 01:04:44.247 like, complex, jumbled- Yeah … um, uh, mess of what everyone thinks and channel 01:04:44.330 --> 01:04:46.530 that into the right thing happening. 01:04:46.820 --> 01:04:53.027 And another thing is, like, part of what has held AI back, and I think 01:04:53.110 --> 01:04:57.680 part of the problem of AI, is how it almost feels like the people building 01:04:58.190 --> 01:04:59.747 AI are talking down on other people. 01:04:59.830 --> 01:05:04.780 It's like- Yeah … "Hey, I am building s- the smartest thing you've ever known. 01:05:05.050 --> 01:05:08.887 It's gonna be way smarter than you, and I know exactly what we're gonna do with it." 01:05:08.970 --> 01:05:13.380 And I think rightfully, people are like, "Wait, what?" Like Yeah. 01:05:14.360 --> 01:05:18.527 "What does anything you just said have to do with me?" And, and like, um, "How 01:05:18.610 --> 01:05:21.447 is this even good for me?" And then you're like, "Oh, it'll cure cancer." 01:05:21.530 --> 01:05:25.110 And they're like, "Okay, but what else?" Like Yeah, do I believe you? 01:05:25.240 --> 01:05:26.430 Or, yeah. Yeah. 01:05:26.550 --> 01:05:30.377 And so I think that especially given the moment that we're in, and to your 01:05:30.460 --> 01:05:34.257 point, like, how much fear there is about AI and how much uncertainty there 01:05:34.340 --> 01:05:38.767 is, and how confusing everything that's being said is, like, um, I think the 01:05:38.850 --> 01:05:41.947 most important things are, like, first, let's have everyone experience it. 01:05:42.030 --> 01:05:45.827 Like, let's have everyone actually, like, understand the hype 01:05:45.910 --> 01:05:47.097 Yeah … for be- lack of a better term. 01:05:47.180 --> 01:05:52.990 Like, feel what AI agents can do for you and can do to make your life better. 01:05:53.390 --> 01:05:56.347 And that'll give you perspective as to, "Oh, this is a technology 01:05:56.430 --> 01:05:59.707 that, yeah, it's definitely risky," and, and there's, there's tons of 01:05:59.790 --> 01:06:05.387 risk, don't get me wrong, "but it also is really great, and I like it. 01:06:05.470 --> 01:06:09.657 And I wanna make sure at least some form of it continues, and I can continue 01:06:09.740 --> 01:06:14.157 using." Um, all the way to, you know, the, these, like, big questions and 01:06:14.240 --> 01:06:18.627 these big dialogues, like, how do we just get everyone to a place where we all 01:06:18.710 --> 01:06:20.557 agree, and we can find a path forward? 01:06:20.640 --> 01:06:23.717 And I think I have enough humility that, like, these guys are, you 01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:25.527 know, they're big, important people. 01:06:25.610 --> 01:06:30.677 Like, I don't know if I have much to add, you know, um, given their points of view. 01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:35.117 But I just wanna make sure that we I- facilitate is really the 01:06:35.200 --> 01:06:36.427 word that keeps coming to my mind. 01:06:36.510 --> 01:06:41.387 Like, how do we move quickly to all collectively come to informed 01:06:41.470 --> 01:06:45.340 opinions and, um, and then come to a process where we agree on something? 01:06:46.670 --> 01:06:50.167 This is the question I ask everyone at the end of these HUGE* conversations, 01:06:50.250 --> 01:06:56.867 which is when I think about after I'm dead and after people say that she 01:06:56.950 --> 01:07:03.827 was a really great family member, and she loved her husband, and she loved 01:07:03.910 --> 01:07:07.980 her friends, I would want them to talk about the mission of this show. 01:07:08.210 --> 01:07:12.710 I would want them to talk about how I tried my best to help people see 01:07:12.860 --> 01:07:17.547 ways the future could go well because I really believe, as it seems you do, 01:07:17.630 --> 01:07:23.367 in other people, in their perspective, and when they see a vision of a future 01:07:23.450 --> 01:07:25.737 they believe in, that they're gonna actually try and help make it happen. 01:07:25.820 --> 01:07:29.950 Like, that's the point of what I spend all of my working hours doing. 01:07:30.690 --> 01:07:32.660 You're obviously just starting out. 01:07:32.780 --> 01:07:34.790 You've already had this huge impact. 01:07:34.910 --> 01:07:38.157 You have a lot farther to go, but I'm curious when you think about how 01:07:38.240 --> 01:07:42.060 you wanna be remembered after you're gone, what do you want people to say? 01:07:46.730 --> 01:07:49.907 First of all, what a nice, what a nice, um, idea and concept. 01:07:49.990 --> 01:07:55.547 Um, I think, I think for me, I w- will want people to say that the things that 01:07:55.630 --> 01:08:00.877 I built and the things I contributed to, um, helped everyone get more out 01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:02.910 of what they wanted out of their lives. 01:08:03.210 --> 01:08:04.787 Beautiful. Thanks for doing this. 01:08:04.870 --> 01:08:05.703 Thank you.