WEBVTT

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Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

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>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

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>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN
PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day.

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>> We're up. All right.
>> Good to see you, sir.

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>> Yeah. Good to see you, Joe.

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>> Um, first of [music]
all, thank you very

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much for everything you've done and for

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just I I can't tell you how many people

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have come up to me and said, "Thank you
for shedding light on what's going on in

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the Congo with the cobalt stuff. your

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book was so important and the fact that
you risked your life to get the kind of

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footage that you got.
You you legitimately risked your life.

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>> Yeah. >> That it is a
very dangerous part of the

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world right now with enormous amounts
of resources being pulled out and insane

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amounts of money being made

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>> and you know I think just people like

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you are rare. So thank you.
>> Oh man, you're uh you're gracious, Joe.

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You're really gracious. I I take that
to heart. It means a lot. And let me just

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say that the fact that you
continue to talk about

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it, you know, you and I first talked
about this uh talking to Jamie, it was

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almost 4 years ago.
>> Was it really that long ago?

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>> It was it was December 2022.

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>> That's crazy.

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>> So here we are September 26. So almost

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four years ago. And um you continue to

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talk about it now and again. And I
think that that's meant a lot to me. It's

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meant a lot to people in the Congo. Um,

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it's obvious this has captured your heart
and um, it you're to be commended

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for that conscience. >> Well,
I'm doing this talking. You're

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you're actually out there going and

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documenting all this stuff. This is a

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very strange world that we live in that

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at the very base of the all the greatest

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technology like all this stuff that we
have that's so incredible that allows us

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to find out so much about the world. the

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base of that you have slave labor
pulling minerals out of the ground.

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>> Yeah. You have slave labor, you have
child labor, you have militia run mines.

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You know, for for people who didn't hear
our last conversation, um go back and

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hear it, you know, because we walk

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through it and um I haven't been back
to the Congo since Cobalt Red came out and

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I knew it would be too
dangerous for me to go back.

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>> Yeah, definitely
don't go out. you know,

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it's just my colleague said pretty soon
after Cobalt Red came out, you know,

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there was there's there's there's a

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bounty for you. So, I can't go back.
Um, but I've stayed in touch with people

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there. I continued to get ground
research done and the conditions

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uh they're not much better, you know,
and in some ways they've continued to

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degrade because the fever for these

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these battery component metals and it's

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it's cobalt, but it's also the lithium,
the nickel, the copper, the tantelum,

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all the stuff that goes into our
smartphones, our tablets. You know, you

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and I, nobody we know can function

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without this stuff. And the bottom of

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the chain is tainted in child labor,

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slavery, violence, environmental

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destruction and contamination. And the

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new fever is the AI data centers.

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You know, we're building these um as

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fast as possible to support the AI

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economy and they require all the same

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metals and minerals. So the circuit

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boards, the servers, the heat sinks, uh

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the energy storage, they all require

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cobalt, copper, tin, tantelum, it's all

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coming out of Congo. [sighs]

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It's so such a strange aspect of human

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life that we require that and that the

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the the area is controlled by people
that are willing to do this. Like

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there's no like we don't get much of these
rare earth minerals from America, do we?

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>> No. No. No. Not much at all. No. That's
why it's it's almost all in the global

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south and in particular in the
heart of Africa these deposits.

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>> Can I ask you is it because it's not

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available? there's no ore in America
or it hasn't been mined like what is what

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are

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>> so it's a it's the dominating force is

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that the the largest and highest grade

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reserves of these crucial elements and

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rare earth metals are in central Africa

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um lithium expend extends more broadly

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to South America there's not much um

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there's not much in North America
there's some But here's the rub. Here's

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the rub. You can find some lithium
in the salt flats out west. You can find

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some cobalt along the Canadian North

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American border. Uh the rub is we
don't want to wreck our environment.

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>> Oh god.

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>> Digging the stuff out of the ground um

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and then processing it. But we're okay

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obliterating their environment and

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polluting it and contaminating it.
Um and I did another study. I told you I

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can't go back to the Congo, but I have

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colleagues and we've continued doing

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research and I I issued a report came

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out last year called blood batteries

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um through the University of Nottingham

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and we got to quantify some of the

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environmental impact which uh is so

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crucial to the story. It's crucial to

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the story of this data center push to

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the EV push, the environmental impact.

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And

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we use time lapse time-lapse satellite

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imagery to see that uh from the dawn of

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the sort of cobalt battery metal

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revolution to 2022,

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uh 40 50 60% of the forest areas gone.

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Um shrubbery, grasslands, all of that
gone, replaced with mining territory.

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And then >> is this the Congo as a whole?

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>> So we did. Yeah, this is across
the copper belt co copper cobalt region of

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the Congo where
the mining is taking place.

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>> And what percentage
of the Congo is that?

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>> Small part of it. >> Okay.
>> It's a small part in the southeast

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corner along the Zambian border.
I mean much of the Congo is rainforest,

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>> right? That's why I was confused.

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>> Up in the north Congo
is insanely dense and huge

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>> in the mining part. In the mining part.

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So you've got a massive loss of forestry

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and water bodies and an expansion of

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mining. And then we tested the water

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for heavy metals and acidity levels. And

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we did a case study in the town
of Kouesei, which is sort of ground zero

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for all these metals,
cobalt and copper and so on.

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And

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there was between 10 and 950 times the

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World Health Organization maximum

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recommended limit for human safety of a

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range of heavy metals from lead to

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cobalt to copper to uranium uh to

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chromium. Uh so the whole water sources

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in that part of the country have been

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completely contaminated. So, I point all

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this out because we object to that here.

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We don't want our trees gone. We don't
want our forest destroyed. We don't want

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our water contaminated. We don't want
the air to be polluted. But it's okay

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for it to happen over there kind of out
of sight to those people so long as we

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can plug in our phone, build out our

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data centers, uh keep buying our EVs and
so on. And then that's the story. Okay,

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that's the story that we're okay
destroying them in their world. uh so

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long as ours remains sacrosanked. And
that frankly is just the great hypocrisy

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of all this. >> Is there
an alternative like a viable

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alternative to supply the world
with the minerals that it needs?

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>> Not yet. Not yet. No. I mean,

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>> is it I'm sorry to interrupt, but is is

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it possible to do is it just an

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inevitable fact of when you do that kind
of high level mining, you're going to

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destroy the environment,
or could it be mitigated?

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>> It could do it could be done better.
I mean, you you do have to chop down all

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the trees where the deposit is. So,

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deforestation is inevitable, but let's

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say this was done in our backyard here

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in Austin. Someone found a big copper
cobalt tin tantelum deposit somewhere.

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There'd be rules to follow. You'd have
to deforest the whole place, but we'd

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probably say go plant the same number
of trees somewhere else to offset it. And

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there'd be a lot of rules around
containment, make sure you don't pollute

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the rivers and so on. And none of that

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is done in the global south. None of

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that none of that is done in Congo. Uh

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and it's mostly Chinese state-run mining

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companies um that don't give a [__]

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>> about the people in the environment
there. But our tech and EV companies all

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know that and they're all buying this

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stuff uh from them knowing that. So the

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chain is tainted. It's tainted
in in misery. It's tainted in blood. It's

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dained in environmental destruction. It

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doesn't have to be that way. Um, we

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don't have enough of this stuff
here to offset the demand,

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but we could start mining some of it here.
The problem is there's legitimate

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objections to the environmental impact.

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>> And is it an issue with even if they

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mitigate all the surface area stuff and
the pollution [snorts] that you're still

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going to deal with groundwater?

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>> Yeah, >> groundwater
contamination is inevitable,

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right? just all leeches in. I mean,
the pro it's it's not just the mining,

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>> the products they use to get >>
the the processing of of this stuff, you

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know, you get an ore

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>> that's got cobalt, copper, nickel,

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silver, bit of uranium in it, and you

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have to separate all that. And so

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there's heavy industrial acids, toxic

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industrial liquids used to dissolve and

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separate those metals.
And that's what inevitably leeches.

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>> They pump that stuff right into the
ground. It goes into the ground and then

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it seeps into the ground
water into the rivers, lakes.

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>> When did this all begin?

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>> So the the this the that part of the

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Congo in the southeastern corner from

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the town of Lubmbashi to Kouesei was

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mined for copper going back to colonial

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times. Uh it and something like a

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quarter of the bullets used in World War

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I were copper from that part of the

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Congo. Okay. So it copper mining goes
back a long ways, but there was other

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stuff there. It just didn't have

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industrial value yet. The uranium

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that was used in the bombs dropped on

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Hiroshima and Nagasaki came
from that same part of the Congo.

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>> Whoa. >> The high
the highest grade uranium

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um deposit known in the world at that

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time. Isn't it insane that that place

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has like the most valuable resources
on earth, but yet it's one of the poorest

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places on earth? >> Yeah.
It's it's the resource curse.

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You know, when when when we find

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treasure somewhere, it attracts the

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pirates to come in and loot the place.

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And when a place is war torn or

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colonized or corrupt or filled with

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strife, um, and it just chaos runs riot.

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So, >> and you can get people
to work for basically nothing.

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>> Yeah. There's virtually no alternative.

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There's there's virtually no alternative
way to survive. And and people have to

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understand that, too. When you displace

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hundreds of thousands of people with
a big mining operation, meaning there

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there were villages there and maybe
a river and they used to fish and grow

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some potatoes or whatever. And you just

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displace all those people and you set up

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a mining operation the size of a small

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city. Um, there's no other way for them

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to survive but to bring their kids
and their wives and come into that same

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mining territory. And this is this is

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what happens every day. Roll up their

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sleeves and get down in that toxic dirt

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and try to gather enough ore in a sack

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for the day to make a dollar. And and I

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know now roughly how many people it is.

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When you and I spoke in 2026,

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>> 2020

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>> 2022, sorry, we're now in 2026.

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uh I had documented the human horror
taking place and that that's what cobalt

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red is about but I had not done enough

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to quantify how many people exactly and

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so in this same report I mentioned blood

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batteries ran prevalence estimates just

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sample at all the sites how many people

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and you can build an estimate and on on

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any given day there are at least 300,000

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people men and children

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digging for cobalt with their bare hands
and pickaxes and shovels. 300,000 people

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on any given day. Now, it fluctuates by

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season a little bit, dry season, wet

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season. Of that 300,000,

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about 37%, so more than one out of

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three, are working in conditions we'd

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call absolute slavery.

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And almost 10% are kids. So, roughly

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30,000 kids on any given day.

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not in school, not learning, exposed to

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toxic work, toxic, dangerous mining with

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their hands uh up to their necks in it.

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And that's the bottom of the chain, you

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know, and people people

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not only need to know that,

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but think hard about their own
personal choices in the context of that

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knowledge. You know, what do I mean by

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that? I mean, do you have to upgrade

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your phone every year? People often ask

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me what do I do? Okay, I accept the

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premise that the rechargeable lifestyle

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I live is facilitated by and built upon

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an enormity of human suffering uh of

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those people over there. What do I do? I

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can't I can't fix that. And I say,
you're right. You can't. I can't. Uh but

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you can think about your personal choices.
And the first one is uh do you

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have to upgrade the phone and the tablet
every year just because the tech company

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tells you to? Because each time you do,
you're contributing to those demand side

00:14:07.680 --> 00:14:10.557
forces. So if the phone still works,

00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:15.357
just use it. Um the EV is a more
interesting question. You know, you

00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.637
don't upgrade the EV, you either buy
one or you keep your internal combustion

00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:22.077
engine car. Um, now EV companies will

00:14:22.160 --> 00:14:24.797
tell us their mining is done sustainably

00:14:24.880 --> 00:14:29.117
and the supply chain is audited and all
of that and and all of these horrors are

00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:33.197
taking place in someone else's supply
chain. But the truth is it's all

00:14:33.280 --> 00:14:35.917
tainted. It's all coming out of the same

00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:40.317
pot of tainted um contaminated human

00:14:40.400 --> 00:14:46.077
degradation and environmental destruction.
The EV story is let's save the planet.

00:14:46.160 --> 00:14:48.877
>> Yeah. >> And that's fine.
We need to save the

00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:54.237
planet, but we can't save our piece
of the planet by destroying their piece of

00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:56.557
the planet. >> Look,
I love the technology involved in

00:14:56.640 --> 00:14:58.237
EVs. [clears throat] I love I have a

00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:00.797
Tesla. I love it. But there's also,

00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:05.757
excuse me, there's also reality of um
brake dust. It's way more brake dust

00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:10.077
with those things. And that's a big part
of the particulate uh pollution that you

00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:13.357
get in large cities. >> Yeah. >>
Is brake dust. That stuff that you clean

00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.877
off your wheel when you go to the car
wash, that stuff is in your lungs. If

00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.677
you live in a big city, especially
like New York City, and you're walking

00:15:19.760 --> 00:15:22.317
around, you are 100% breathing in brake

00:15:22.400 --> 00:15:25.117
dust. And it's been proven that living

00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.077
in polluted, heavily populated cities,

00:15:28.160 --> 00:15:32.237
lowers your lifespan. And it's probably
one of the reasons. You're dealing with

00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.757
a toxic element in the atmosphere that
you're breathing in every day. Whether

00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:37.837
you like it or not, there's not
a thing you could do about it.

00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:41.837
>> Yeah. Yeah. It I I I uh you know,

00:15:41.920 --> 00:15:45.677
there's so many parts of the Eevee story
that we don't get fully told. You know,

00:15:45.760 --> 00:15:47.037
break brake dust is certainly one.

00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:48.637
>> Well, all cars give
off brake dust, just

00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.797
to be really clear, but EVs are heavier.

00:15:50.880 --> 00:15:52.717
>> They're heavier.
So, you you break more.

00:15:52.800 --> 00:15:56.077
You have to break more. Yeah.
>> Yeah. You if that's right.

00:15:56.160 --> 00:15:58.077
>> I think there is some ways around that.

00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:01.597
And I think um one way to mitigate it

00:16:01.680 --> 00:16:05.837
quite a bit, I believe, is carbon
ceramic brakes. Is that the case, Jamie?

00:16:05.920 --> 00:16:09.357
Let's find out if that's absolutely true.
I've read that, but I want to make

00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:13.437
sure that's really true. Uh, I know from
anecdotal experience that when you clean

00:16:13.520 --> 00:16:17.037
your car, if you have carbon ceramic
brakes, there's almost no brake dust on

00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:20.797
your wheels. It's a very different thing.
If you have regular steel brakes,

00:16:20.880 --> 00:16:25.437
it just it for whatever reason leaves
more brake dust. I'm not sure why. We'll

00:16:25.520 --> 00:16:30.397
find out in a second. >> Um,
but other than that, is there any

00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:32.397
sort of novel material that can do it?

00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:35.117
Here it goes. Carbon ceramic
brake systems can reduce brake wear

00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.957
particulate pollution substantially
compared with conventional gray cast

00:16:39.040 --> 00:16:42.557
iron rotors. But they do not eliminate
brake dust. The actual environmental

00:16:42.640 --> 00:16:44.797
outcome depends on the complete friction

00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:50.157
pair rotor and pad formulation
and on driving conditions.

00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:55.117
>> Yeah. So it just explains what brake
dust is. And so it's it does help a lot

00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:57.997
substantially, but it,
you know, doesn't eliminate it.

00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:00.717
>> Yeah. >> And they're
more expensive. You know, if

00:17:00.800 --> 00:17:05.197
you it's like a big upgrade. If you get
a car um like a lot of sports cars, if

00:17:05.280 --> 00:17:08.637
you buy a Corvette, it allows you
to upgrade to carbon ceramic brakes. It's

00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:12.877
very expensive, so very
few people do it. [snorts]

00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:15.277
>> Well, there's there's certainly things

00:17:15.360 --> 00:17:20.317
we can and should be doing to mitigate
the environmental impacts of whether

00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.357
it's an EV or even an internal
combustion engine. You know, I didn't

00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:28.877
know about these brake pads. That's um
um it's worth it's worth people knowing

00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:30.877
more about that. >> But then
you're going to have to find

00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.837
carbon. Like, okay, now you got to get
carbon [clears throat] to get the carbon

00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:37.277
ceramic. >> So, this is the thing. This
is the thing. There's always something,

00:17:37.360 --> 00:17:42.157
>> right? And and you made this point
with Rizza, you know, it okay, cobalt, but

00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:44.077
it's also the lithium. It's also the

00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:46.717
nickel. It's all one of the biggest

00:17:46.800 --> 00:17:51.277
lithium deposits now. And and people are
saying, "Okay, let's use less cobalt in

00:17:51.360 --> 00:17:54.797
the batteries. Let's do do lithium iron
phosphate batteries. Let's do the solid

00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.677
state batteries." They always have
lithium in them. One of the biggest

00:17:57.760 --> 00:18:01.757
lithium deposits now is is in the Congo

00:18:01.840 --> 00:18:03.597
and it just started shipping under this

00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:06.957
Chinese mining company um in June of

00:18:07.040 --> 00:18:12.717
this year out of this deposit and the
conditions there I haven't been there

00:18:12.800 --> 00:18:16.717
colleagues who've been up there
it's near a town called Manono

00:18:16.800 --> 00:18:19.437
they're just as horrific and so when you

00:18:19.520 --> 00:18:23.277
say all right we're done with cobalt

00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:27.117
we're just going to do lithium iron
phosphate battery or you lithium table

00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:29.757
salt battery, whatever.

00:18:29.840 --> 00:18:30.397
>> Same deal.

00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:34.317
>> Same deal. You know, so it's it's about

00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.037
extending the horizon of our compassion

00:18:37.120 --> 00:18:41.757
beyond our immediate circle and and

00:18:41.840 --> 00:18:45.677
caring about everyone who's attached to

00:18:45.760 --> 00:18:47.837
our life and our lifestyle. No matter

00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:50.397
how t tangential or how far downstream

00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:52.717
they might be, they're still brothers

00:18:52.800 --> 00:18:57.437
and sisters. They still inhabit this earth
with us. They still live, breathe,

00:18:57.520 --> 00:18:59.197
and have dreams just like we do.

00:18:59.280 --> 00:19:01.677
>> And you could be them
if you were born there.

00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:04.477
>> That's That's the thing. >> You
got lucky. We all got lucky. You and

00:19:04.560 --> 00:19:09.117
I mostly got lucky. >> We got the roll
of the dice that was favorable.

00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:11.037
>> And that's all it is.
And that's all it is.

00:19:11.120 --> 00:19:12.957
>> That's what's hard to recognize.

00:19:13.040 --> 00:19:15.997
>> This episode is brought to you by
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It's hard. People don't want to believe.

00:20:12.800 --> 00:20:17.757
That's why that whole pull yourself
up by your bootstraps ideology

00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:21.357
that some people like to promote
like that's kind of crazy. In certain

00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:26.077
circumstances it's accurate, but to put
that flat across the board for everybody.

00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:27.677
>> No, there's people there's no boots.

00:20:27.760 --> 00:20:31.437
They're barefoot. They don't they don't
have clean water. Like they don't have

00:20:31.520 --> 00:20:33.757
nothing and no medical infrastructure.

00:20:33.840 --> 00:20:37.197
And you're being forced to work in an
environment that 100% is going to poison

00:20:37.280 --> 00:20:42.557
you to death. And we only make progress
when we extend our compassion out.

00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.677
>> Right? >> When I say
progress, I mean moral

00:20:45.760 --> 00:20:48.477
progress as a species on this earth.

00:20:48.560 --> 00:20:51.437
>> That's the literally
the key. Like if if

00:20:51.520 --> 00:20:56.077
you wanted to figure out like how
to make just global life better for all

00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:00.077
people. It's take whatever the third
world is and bring it up to the first

00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.837
world. We should all want to do that.
If everybody wanted to do that, if

00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:08.157
everybody wanted to deliver
infrastructure, education, medical

00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:11.837
establishment, like where there's like
legitimate hospitals, like everything

00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.597
that we have in the first world, if
that was all over the world, how much less

00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:20.637
problems would there be? But the problem
is the resources, like the resources in

00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:22.397
the Congo, whether it's oil or whatever

00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.757
it is, they're worth so much money. And

00:21:25.840 --> 00:21:30.157
the people that are in control of these
resources are extracting so much money

00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:32.317
and they don't ever want to let that go.

00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:37.037
>> No, they don't. It It's I run a thought
experiment with people sometimes and

00:21:37.120 --> 00:21:39.677
when I teach a class, you know,
I haven't taught in a couple years, but

00:21:39.760 --> 00:21:43.677
when I teach um I run a thought
experiment and it's exactly what we're

00:21:43.760 --> 00:21:47.437
talking about here. So, let let's
say you were up in the sky in heaven,

00:21:47.520 --> 00:21:49.197
whatever pre-birth state, whatever that

00:21:49.280 --> 00:21:51.997
might be, and you don't know what roll

00:21:52.080 --> 00:21:54.557
of the dice you're going to get. Am I

00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:57.677
going to be born in a safe, loving,

00:21:57.760 --> 00:22:00.637
upper middle class family in the West?

00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.357
Am I going to be born in some war torn

00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.357
poor uh part of South Sudan or whatever?

00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:09.757
You know, you don't know. Okay. What

00:22:09.840 --> 00:22:13.117
kind of what kind of world would you

00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:16.397
hope the favorable people are trying to

00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:19.197
pursue in the event that you're the one

00:22:19.280 --> 00:22:24.237
you get the bad roll of the dice and
you'd say, "Man, I really hope that the

00:22:24.320 --> 00:22:27.757
ones who get the good roll of the dice
will care about me. They'll see me. They

00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:29.917
will feel some connection to me. They

00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:32.797
will try to use their good roll of the

00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:36.077
dice in a way that benefits me somehow.

00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:41.037
Maybe they are part of some effort
to uh bring education, health care,

00:22:41.120 --> 00:22:42.957
sanitation, whatever to my part of the

00:22:43.040 --> 00:22:46.717
world. Uh and and have that connection

00:22:46.800 --> 00:22:50.717
and extension of their compassion and
empathy towards me because we're all up

00:22:50.800 --> 00:22:54.637
here in this pre-birth state recognizing
some of you are going there, some of you

00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:58.317
going there. Let's all agree. All right,
those of you who end up in the good

00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:01.357
place, you don't lose
sight of us, >> right?

00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.717
>> You know, and I won't lose sight of you

00:23:02.800 --> 00:23:04.477
in the event it's me. and and then we

00:23:04.560 --> 00:23:10.797
get here and um we're just wound up in

00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:14.877
our sphere and we lose a sense of human

00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:17.437
connection. Isn't it partly because this

00:23:17.520 --> 00:23:22.557
is really the first of a couple
generations but w with increasingly more

00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:26.077
contact and understanding of the rest
of the world. Like if you went back a 100

00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.757
years ago, people had virtually no
understanding of how things went on

00:23:29.840 --> 00:23:33.917
anywhere else unless they had visited
them. And now a hundred years later

00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.157
because of the very technology that

00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.117
we're talking about which is also ironic

00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.677
that's why we know so much about all

00:23:41.760 --> 00:23:43.917
these places in the world and isn't the

00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:46.157
problem also with elevating these places

00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:49.037
and getting them infrastructure that one

00:23:49.120 --> 00:23:51.277
of the best ways to do it cleanly is

00:23:51.360 --> 00:23:56.317
nuclear power. Um but then they found
out that when you give people nuclear

00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:00.477
power it's pretty easy for them
to convert it into weapons.

00:24:00.560 --> 00:24:03.197
>> Okay. So there's there's
a lot to unpack. There's a lot to

00:24:03.280 --> 00:24:05.837
>> unpack because we're trying to like
if we're going to be fair about a

00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:09.277
discussion of why everything's [__]
>> One of the reasons why everything's

00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:11.757
[__] is clearly because they don't
have infrastructure. They don't have

00:24:11.840 --> 00:24:14.797
power. They don't have water that's
that's clean. They don't have good

00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:18.077
education. They don't have all these
things. So if you wanted to like start

00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:22.957
that and make it better, you would have
to give them power. So are you going to

00:24:23.040 --> 00:24:26.637
burn coal? Are you what are you going to
do? Like there's only a few ways, right?

00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:31.597
There's dams. You can get hydroelectric
power. um windmills and solar. Get the

00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:34.637
[__] out of here. That's not gonna
that's not right. Not right now. Not

00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.157
with current technology. It's not going
to power giant cities. So like what do

00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.917
you give them? You give them nuclear
power. And this is what happened in

00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.437
India, right? And this is what happened
in Pakistan. And they're like, "Oh,

00:24:45.520 --> 00:24:47.117
look, we could turn this into a missile.

00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:50.637
[__] each other up." >> It

00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:51.597
so tricky.

00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:54.157
>> It's tricky. And you know, you talk

00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:58.077
about nukes, okay? And you know, we're

00:24:58.160 --> 00:24:59.437
at this point in this world where

00:24:59.520 --> 00:25:01.997
there's this fever about who does and

00:25:02.080 --> 00:25:07.277
doesn't have them. And let me tell you
one other thing. I've I've I've I've

00:25:07.360 --> 00:25:08.797
learned since we last talked about the

00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.677
Congo. Okay. I mentioned the the uranium

00:25:11.760 --> 00:25:17.037
used to to drop uh Little Boy
and Big Boy on Hiroshima Nagasaki.

00:25:17.120 --> 00:25:19.757
>> Fat Man. >> Fat Man.
Fat Man. Little Boy and Fat Man.

00:25:19.840 --> 00:25:20.717
>> Yeah.

00:25:20.800 --> 00:25:24.317
>> Um on Hiroshima Nagasaki. Okay. It came

00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:29.117
came from a mine called Shinkalobu in
in the Congo. There was a meeting of the

00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:31.757
Belgians and the Americans in Midtown
Manhattan and they said, "All right,

00:25:31.840 --> 00:25:34.397
we're going to give you so much money
for that uranium and so on and so

00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:37.837
forth." And um Congo has a lot of

00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.197
uranium. All right, a lot of uranium.

00:25:41.280 --> 00:25:44.717
And for the last 10 years, Western

00:25:44.800 --> 00:25:49.117
intelligence agencies have been
trying to figure out how is China

00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:53.037
growing its nuclear stockpile, stockpile
of nuclear warheads so fast because they

00:25:53.120 --> 00:25:56.557
got no uranium. They're not getting it
from North Korea because they don't have

00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:59.677
it either. Russia's not going to be
sending it to them. They're not going to

00:25:59.760 --> 00:26:04.557
give teeth to their neighbor. Where are
they getting it from? And you talk to

00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.757
people on the ground in the Congo.
Now there's and now there's some counter

00:26:07.840 --> 00:26:09.997
intelligence looking into this. People

00:26:10.080 --> 00:26:11.917
in the Congo have said, "Look, for the

00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:15.437
better part of the last 15 years, every

00:26:15.520 --> 00:26:17.837
one of these Chinese state-run mining

00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:22.637
companies in the same tractor trailer
that's got the copper and the cobalt and

00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:26.397
the nickel, they've got uranium on it,
too. And it's all headed over to

00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:28.397
mainland China." And that's the answer

00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:30.957
to this question of how did China jack

00:26:31.040 --> 00:26:33.997
up its nuclear stockpile supply so fast

00:26:34.080 --> 00:26:38.237
in the last 1015 years. Now, I can't
verify any of that. It's not like I've

00:26:38.320 --> 00:26:41.357
done uranium investigations.
>> Look, it only makes sense. They have

00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:42.717
complete control of the region.

00:26:42.800 --> 00:26:46.077
>> It makes a lot of sense. >> There's
no way anybody would be able to stop them.

00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:49.037
>> No one's going to stop them.
They control the ground. They control the

00:26:49.120 --> 00:26:51.517
ground there. And

00:26:51.600 --> 00:26:54.557
that's scary, you know, and and so when

00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:56.717
you talk about do we give them do we use

00:26:56.800 --> 00:26:58.557
nuclear power in that part of the world?

00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:01.837
I mean, I don't think you want uh yellow

00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:05.677
cake floating around that part
of the world, you know.

00:27:05.760 --> 00:27:08.637
Um, >> does China have any human rights

00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.717
organizations that are comparable
to the ones in the West?

00:27:12.800 --> 00:27:16.797
>> Not really. Right. >> You know,
they may write stuff down on paper,

00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:18.877
>> you know, >> but there's
not like >> they're not. No,

00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:21.677
>> there's a I mean, there's a billion
people over there. You would think there

00:27:21.760 --> 00:27:26.477
would be a certain percentage >>
like Red Cross type organizations. I

00:27:26.560 --> 00:27:30.637
mean, >> we have some sense of what
they've done to the Weaguers.

00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:34.397
>> Yeah, that's a that's a hard one
to figure out, right? It's a hard one to

00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:36.077
figure out. We've got some general sense

00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:40.797
of the forced labor camps um um uh

00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:42.877
filled with weaguers

00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.117
um doing solar panels and clothes and

00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:49.357
all this [__] Um but and I haven't

00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.277
looked into that directly, but I can I

00:27:51.360 --> 00:27:53.037
can tell you what I've seen directly on

00:27:53.120 --> 00:27:56.717
what they do in Africa and you know they

00:27:56.800 --> 00:27:59.277
they don't treat people like people

00:27:59.360 --> 00:28:02.077
there. They don't see them, the

00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:06.157
Africans, as people. They're in the way

00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:10.077
of the loot they need. And they don't

00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:14.157
even employ the African people there when

00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:16.317
they come in with a mining project or a

00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:19.117
construction project. They ship over

00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:21.917
people from China to do the work and

00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.957
then work them and then send them back.

00:28:25.040 --> 00:28:29.917
And there's nothing by way
of human rights standards

00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.037
when you're talking about Chinese
companies operating in Africa.

00:28:33.120 --> 00:28:36.877
>> So this is a uniquely western thing.

00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.277
>> This drive to have some basic human

00:28:39.360 --> 00:28:43.997
rights standards. Yeah. Yeah. I mean
I would say so. I would say so. Now one

00:28:44.080 --> 00:28:46.717
thing that's changed since you and I
talked is there's actually a US mining

00:28:46.800 --> 00:28:51.117
company now operating in that part
of the Congo. There wasn't one for better

00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.117
part of two decades.

00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.997
And one of the mines which uh is owned

00:28:56.080 --> 00:29:00.477
by um Dubai Middle Eastern guys

00:29:00.560 --> 00:29:04.557
um part of the Trump administration
sort of peace for minerals arrangement

00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:06.877
between President Shisha and the Trump

00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:11.117
administration was mining access.

00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:15.437
And so one concession uh was sold
to this US mining company. It's called

00:29:15.520 --> 00:29:17.197
Virtuous Mining and they're run by

00:29:17.280 --> 00:29:20.877
former military guys and they took over

00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:24.877
a couple of copper cobalt concessions
in Lubmbashi and Koazi both sides of the

00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:27.357
copper belt. That's just this year. So

00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:31.437
within the last few months okay and I

00:29:31.520 --> 00:29:35.837
haven't been there to look but I talk
to colleagues all the time and say look is

00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:38.397
is is virtues are they doing things any

00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:42.317
better? And the feedback I've gotten so

00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:46.717
far is they seem to be uh improving

00:29:46.800 --> 00:29:50.157
standards around artal mining. There's
still artisal mining, but improving

00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:52.237
standards. >> When we say
artisal mining, you you went

00:29:52.320 --> 00:29:55.277
into depth about this the first time we
talked, but we should just tell people

00:29:55.360 --> 00:29:57.837
that that thing artisal sounds awesome.

00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:01.197
It sounds like a great cup of coffee,
like fair trade. It's a nice

00:30:01.280 --> 00:30:04.637
>> in a nice place, >> you know,
like someone's got a beautiful

00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:07.037
ceramic cup they serve
you the coffee in. Yeah.

00:30:07.120 --> 00:30:09.357
>> Artisal mining is pretty
much the opposite of that.

00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:11.357
>> It it's the the games people play with

00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:14.317
words, right? Uh no. So artal mining

00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:20.477
means you've got mom, dad, and their kids
up to here in toxic grit and filth

00:30:20.560 --> 00:30:23.277
digging. >> Yeah.
This is an artisal mind. The fact

00:30:23.360 --> 00:30:28.317
that you can use that same word artisal
with this that you and you can with a

00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:33.117
nice coffee shop is crazy.
>> That's crazy. That's So this is

00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:35.677
you know I got in >> imagine
if you were learning English.

00:30:35.760 --> 00:30:39.517
You're like, "What the [__] does artisal
actually mean?" Like, "How how do the

00:30:39.600 --> 00:30:42.637
two things what >> like
this language is messed up."

00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:45.837
>> Yeah. How how are these both artisal?

00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:48.347
>> That's crazy.
>> How is my espresso and that artist?

00:30:48.430 --> 00:30:52.237
[laughter] >> For lack
of a better term, these minds

00:30:52.320 --> 00:30:54.477
um it's all basically the poorest people

00:30:54.560 --> 00:30:55.437
on earth.

00:30:55.520 --> 00:31:00.477
>> Raw human labor. Uh it's tens of

00:31:00.560 --> 00:31:04.397
thousands of people and there's kids
down there, too. Okay? You just can't

00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:07.597
see in this massive. >> There's also
you've shown mothers with their babies.

00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:10.877
>> Mothers with babies on their back.
So that's that's what the mining industry

00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:13.997
calls artisinal. Okay. It's it's this

00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:17.517
it's kids with 40 50 kilogram sacks of

00:31:17.600 --> 00:31:21.437
cobalt um on their necks clamoring out

00:31:21.520 --> 00:31:26.077
of a pit. Cobalt is toxic to touch.
It is toxic to breathe. All these kids get

00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.237
respiratory distress, cancers. The women
get birth defects, congenal disease.

00:31:30.320 --> 00:31:32.477
Here's a teenager with a baby. These are

00:31:32.560 --> 00:31:34.877
all my photos, okay, that that found

00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:37.357
their way onto the internet. That kid's

00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:41.197
probably eight and she's probably 13 or

00:31:41.280 --> 00:31:44.157
14 and she's got this baby. I remember

00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:48.557
that Joe that that's in the hills above
Cambodia. That's a story I told you last

00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:50.317
time where that's probably the closest I

00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:53.117
came to getting shot was in this mining

00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:56.397
area. It was almost all children run by

00:31:56.480 --> 00:31:59.357
a militia um north of a town called

00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:02.957
Kamov and it is all copper cobalt. It

00:32:03.040 --> 00:32:05.117
all gets sold right into the industrial

00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:07.357
supply chain. People need to accept this

00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:10.477
truth. The kids don't dig cobalt going

00:32:10.560 --> 00:32:14.637
to the moon. Okay, that cobalt all goes

00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:19.277
into the formal supply chain through
militias and traders. All of it. What do

00:32:19.360 --> 00:32:23.277
I mean by formal supply chain? I mean
the formal industrial mining companies

00:32:23.360 --> 00:32:25.357
that then go and refine this stuff and

00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:27.597
it ends up in your phones and cars and

00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:32.557
tablets. So I was up there in those
hills and you're not supposed to be up

00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:35.517
there. Like I wasn't supposed to be in
the place where there's 15,000 people in

00:32:35.600 --> 00:32:38.397
that pit and these militia guys come

00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:42.317
come barreling up the hill with AK-47s.

00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:46.077
And I thought that was it for me. Uh I
mean this this is the story I told you

00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:49.437
last time. I thought that was it.
I mean, they threw my backpack off my

00:32:49.520 --> 00:32:53.597
back, shoved me to the ground, yanked
all my stuff out, demanded my phone to

00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:55.517
see if I'd taken photos and videos and

00:32:55.600 --> 00:32:58.797
so on. And the only thing that saved my

00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:03.197
life, this this for people who are
interested in human rights research,

00:33:03.280 --> 00:33:06.477
this is what's important.
You get local intel,

00:33:06.560 --> 00:33:11.117
local colleagues, take their advice. The
only thing that saved my life that day.

00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:14.237
So, one of my local colleagues said,
"Said, before you go to any of these

00:33:14.320 --> 00:33:18.397
places, you got to get a stamp
from the governor's office on your visa

00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.677
paperwork, and you take
that with you everywhere."

00:33:21.760 --> 00:33:23.837
>> And that will convey
to any militia that

00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:27.917
you're under the governor's protection,
and they're not going to [__] with you.

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:31.357
They won't they'll mess with you,
but they're not going to do. They're not

00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:32.397
going to kill you.

00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:36.317
>> Um, and I had to go get that stamp. I

00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:38.397
had to persuade the governor of

00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:41.917
Hotkatanga province that I was there not

00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:46.077
to shame the Congo. I was seeking truth

00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:48.397
that I think his people are being uh

00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:50.477
exploited by the global north and this

00:33:50.560 --> 00:33:54.877
whole tech um fever for rechargeable

00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:59.277
stuff and he put his little stamp on it
and you know that was the only time I

00:33:59.360 --> 00:34:02.797
met him, only time I saw him but I had
that stamp. So when I was up there and

00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:05.757
and my stuff getting thrown around,
they had their guns pointed at me. And my

00:34:05.840 --> 00:34:09.357
guide, his face went pale. And I was I
thought, "This is it. This is it for

00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:14.477
Cara up on this hill, middle of nowhere."
And my guide just gestured and

00:34:14.560 --> 00:34:18.077
I knew what he was what he was what he
was intending. And I found my folder on

00:34:18.160 --> 00:34:22.957
the ground. I pulled that piece of paper
out and I showed them the stamp and and

00:34:23.040 --> 00:34:24.317
then they just said, "Get out of here.

00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:27.517
Just, you know, they let us go." So, uh,

00:34:27.600 --> 00:34:32.397
when you go into conflict zones, you
have to have that kind of local advice.

00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:33.917
Um, because it can mean the difference

00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:39.117
between living and being shot and dumped

00:34:39.200 --> 00:34:42.077
in some ditch where these little girls

00:34:42.160 --> 00:34:47.997
with babies. That's the image
that needs to be in our

00:34:48.080 --> 00:34:50.797
minds every time we >> How did you
get that image? Was it with a phone?

00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:54.237
>> Yeah, it was with my phone. I had So,
those So, they started, you know, going

00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:58.957
through my phone. They had me unlock it,
but I had all these images in a password

00:34:59.040 --> 00:35:02.157
protected other folder. So, I just
showed them pictures of like, you know,

00:35:02.240 --> 00:35:06.477
my my home, my daughter, my, you know,
stuff, just whatever. I had another

00:35:06.560 --> 00:35:09.117
folder and they they they
didn't have the savvy, right?

00:35:09.200 --> 00:35:11.517
>> They didn't know. So it like same like

00:35:11.600 --> 00:35:17.437
that video of the 15,000 people,
you know, I just managed to do this.

00:35:17.520 --> 00:35:21.037
>> Mhm. >> And tuck it
away and because that was

00:35:21.120 --> 00:35:23.917
also controlled by militias uh that

00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:27.437
particular site and and that that mine

00:35:27.520 --> 00:35:28.957
is

00:35:29.040 --> 00:35:31.597
classified industrial,

00:35:31.680 --> 00:35:35.597
which means only heavy equipment

00:35:35.680 --> 00:35:40.317
being used to source the copper and the
cobalt. And that mine is in the bottom

00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:44.797
of the supply chains in the in the
disclosure documents of every tech and

00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:48.237
EV company. It's one of the biggest
copper cobalt suppliers out of the

00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:50.557
Congo. And you get in there and you say

00:35:50.640 --> 00:35:55.117
this this is not industrial at all.

00:35:55.200 --> 00:35:57.507
Nor is it baked bread and espresso.

00:35:57.590 --> 00:35:59.517
[laughter] This is hell on earth,

00:35:59.600 --> 00:36:01.597
>> right? you know, this is this am I

00:36:01.680 --> 00:36:05.117
transported back to Egyptian times and,

00:36:05.200 --> 00:36:08.157
you know, raw brute slave labor being

00:36:08.240 --> 00:36:10.877
made to build a pyramid in this case to

00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.477
excavate a giant pit of of ore

00:36:14.560 --> 00:36:17.517
is it's still I can still hear that the

00:36:17.600 --> 00:36:19.837
clanging in that place and the shouting.

00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:23.037
It's the ability that people have
to treat other people as if they're not

00:36:23.120 --> 00:36:25.757
people. That's still shocking, you know.

00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:28.077
And that brings me to your book because

00:36:28.160 --> 00:36:32.077
uh your book is all about the Atlantic

00:36:32.160 --> 00:36:34.877
slave trade and it's called the Zorg.

00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:37.757
>> Yeah. >> And it's uh
a tale of greed and murder

00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:40.477
that inspired the abolition of slavery.

00:36:40.560 --> 00:36:45.997
And just imagine like those boats
carried people from pretty much that

00:36:46.080 --> 00:36:48.237
same place >> or close to it.

00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:52.877
>> Yeah. Same. No, that the this this

00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:57.517
ship, you know what I learned writing
this book? The Zorg is the most

00:36:57.600 --> 00:37:01.117
consequential slave ship that ever
crossed the Atlantic. There are more

00:37:01.200 --> 00:37:04.077
than 40,000 slave ship voyages across

00:37:04.160 --> 00:37:08.317
the three and a half centuries of the
slave trade that carted 12 and a half 13

00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:12.637
million Africans. And if you need
to know about one of them, it's this one

00:37:12.720 --> 00:37:15.757
because it's the most important, the most
consequential. And the reason I say

00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:19.117
that is it opens the whole world of the

00:37:19.200 --> 00:37:22.237
slave trade in its journey ends in this

00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:26.077
culminating act of brute inhumity

00:37:26.160 --> 00:37:28.237
that sparked the first movement to

00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.237
abolish slavery.

00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:33.517
And it's that sequence

00:37:33.600 --> 00:37:35.277
that is so vital for us to understand

00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:39.037
historically. Uh people can't fix a

00:37:39.120 --> 00:37:42.877
horror until they learn about it. And

00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:47.677
the average person,
I've learned, is not evil.

00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:51.517
Uh we may be generally self-interested
and worried about us and ours and so on,

00:37:51.600 --> 00:37:56.797
but we're not evil. Uh and when we learn
about something wrong, we generally feel

00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:59.757
something and want to do something about
it. And that's what happened. This was

00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:01.517
the ship that told the whole world what

00:38:01.600 --> 00:38:04.077
was happening in the slave trade. And a

00:38:04.160 --> 00:38:06.957
small community, a faith-based moral

00:38:07.040 --> 00:38:10.077
leaders said, "This is unacceptable.

00:38:10.160 --> 00:38:14.397
this is beneath us. Uh, and we we're
going to devote our lives to abolishing

00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:19.757
slavery. But the other thing that this
journey is, you know, we we grow up, you

00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:23.517
grow up in America, you learn about
slavery. You learn about plantation

00:38:23.600 --> 00:38:25.917
economy and how slaves were treated,

00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:28.717
cotton, and so on.

00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:31.437
But we don't learn the details of how

00:38:31.520 --> 00:38:33.997
they got here

00:38:34.080 --> 00:38:37.517
and how the first global economy was

00:38:37.600 --> 00:38:39.357
born around the Atlantic slave trade.

00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:41.757
how modern finance, banking, and

00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:43.757
insurance was born through the slave

00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:48.077
trade and the conditions that the

00:38:48.160 --> 00:38:50.717
African people endured being carted

00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:53.757
across the Atlantic. Um, and it's

00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:55.997
essential to know this history because

00:38:56.080 --> 00:38:59.517
it tells us why we are where we are.

00:38:59.600 --> 00:39:04.077
Um, at this point in history and as a

00:39:04.160 --> 00:39:07.517
moral or lack of moral species on this

00:39:07.600 --> 00:39:12.237
earth because we do at times have these
periods of great inhumity toward each

00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:16.957
other and the slave trade is one of them.
And I learned so much researching

00:39:17.040 --> 00:39:20.877
this book and and and the feedback I get
from readers is, man, I knew slavery. I

00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:23.437
had a sense, but I had no idea just how

00:39:23.520 --> 00:39:25.997
horrible it was.

00:39:26.080 --> 00:39:29.197
>> Do you the fact
that I mean does does it

00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:31.597
dishearten you to know that essentially

00:39:31.680 --> 00:39:35.117
the same thing is happening right now as

00:39:35.200 --> 00:39:39.597
this book? Like in the Western world,
people don't believe that. You know, I

00:39:39.680 --> 00:39:42.797
had a discussion the other day with
someone. He was talking about how we're

00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:44.797
doing better today. We abolish slavery.

00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:48.717
And I said, 'N no, we abolished slavery
right here, but there's more slaves on

00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:51.757
earth now than there were during
the time of the Atlantic slave trade.

00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:54.877
>> So we abolish slavery on paper.

00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:56.077
>> We have a piece of paper that says

00:39:56.160 --> 00:39:58.877
slaveryy's abolished, but in practice,

00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:02.157
the the institution of oppressing,

00:40:02.240 --> 00:40:04.557
subjugating, and extracting the labor of

00:40:04.640 --> 00:40:08.797
someone uh persists and has evolved into

00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:14.637
the modern era. Well, not only that, like
how many underage workers are working in

00:40:14.720 --> 00:40:17.837
>> millions >> in this country
that are undocumented?

00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:19.997
>> Yeah. Yeah.
I I mean, who knows what the

00:40:20.080 --> 00:40:23.597
number is. Um but millions around the

00:40:23.680 --> 00:40:28.557
world, tens of millions around
the world. Um but it's it's

00:40:28.640 --> 00:40:30.477
this this history is important. History

00:40:30.560 --> 00:40:32.797
is important because uh and this ship is

00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:37.997
important uh because it it it it

00:40:38.080 --> 00:40:39.917
reveals

00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:42.317
the depth of our inhumity while

00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:45.037
simultaneously showing us the capacity

00:40:45.120 --> 00:40:50.637
for good in our nature because it did
spark that first movement to abolish

00:40:50.720 --> 00:40:53.677
slavery. It >> and it
was faith-based leaders that were

00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:54.957
doing this.

00:40:55.040 --> 00:40:58.077
It was Yeah, it was it was it was it was

00:40:58.160 --> 00:41:00.957
the Anglican Church leaders in the in in

00:41:01.040 --> 00:41:02.877
the in the first movement to abolish

00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.557
slavery was in England

00:41:06.640 --> 00:41:11.517
and it was sparked directly by this ship.
Um and so people, you know, can

00:41:11.600 --> 00:41:15.437
read the book and understand what
happened on this ship. But uh it it it

00:41:15.520 --> 00:41:20.157
goes on its journey u picking up
Africans along the West African coast.

00:41:20.240 --> 00:41:24.397
And I went to West Africa to see the old
forts and castles that are there. uh

00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:26.637
that Europeans built to facilitate the

00:41:26.720 --> 00:41:29.517
slave trade. They lined the West African

00:41:29.600 --> 00:41:34.077
coast with a higher concentration
of fortifications than existed anywhere in

00:41:34.160 --> 00:41:38.477
Europe. Little forts and castles and
dungeons to gather human beings. And so

00:41:38.560 --> 00:41:40.157
Africans were marched from the inland

00:41:40.240 --> 00:41:43.117
regions, sometimes a thousand miles.

00:41:43.200 --> 00:41:46.397
Arab slave traders would raid and

00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:49.677
ransack a village, grab people and start

00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:53.997
marching them down to the coast and you
know trade along the way with house of

00:41:54.080 --> 00:41:57.757
slave dealers and people would die.
Of course they're yolked at the neck and

00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:02.637
tied and they many people didn't
survive a five, six, 800 mile march.

00:42:02.720 --> 00:42:05.997
>> 800 mile march. >> Yeah.
There's a there's journal entries

00:42:06.080 --> 00:42:10.237
I came across one one captain slave ship
captain named John Newton. John Newton's

00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:11.997
a fascinating guy because he became an

00:42:12.080 --> 00:42:17.117
abolitionist and a preacher and he wrote

00:42:17.200 --> 00:42:22.317
hymns and probably the most famous
hymn he wrote was Amazing Grace.

00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:26.157
>> Whoa. >> So Amazing Grace
is written by a slave trader.

00:42:26.240 --> 00:42:28.637
>> Whoa. >> So John
Newton John Newton's from

00:42:28.720 --> 00:42:33.757
Liverpool. Liverpool was once
capital of the of the slave trade.

00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:37.197
We think of Beatles when we think
Liverpool, you know, or the football

00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:40.397
club, but it was once the dominant force

00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:44.717
in the entire European
Atlantic slave trade, Liverpool.

00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:47.357
And Newton was one of those captains. He

00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:49.197
captained three slave ship journeys.

00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:52.557
They called it the triangular trade.

00:42:52.640 --> 00:42:56.077
And what that meant was is um ships

00:42:56.160 --> 00:42:58.237
departed Europe, in this case Liverpool,

00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:02.637
with tradable goods, mirrors, knives,

00:43:02.720 --> 00:43:05.917
rum, brandy, cutlery, crockery, linens,

00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:10.077
bandanas, whatever, cowery shells.

00:43:10.160 --> 00:43:12.797
Took all that stuff down to Western

00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:17.597
Africa where Europeans had built some
castles and forts. And those castles and

00:43:17.680 --> 00:43:22.077
forts were involved in the business
of accumulating Africans.

00:43:22.160 --> 00:43:26.797
Okay. And they held them in dungeons in
these forts. And you can go to a place I

00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:28.397
went to it called Cape Coast Castle in

00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:30.237
Ghana, which was headquarters of the

00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:33.837
British slave trade. And there's a

00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:38.157
massive dungeon in the bottom
of Cape Coast Castle.

00:43:38.240 --> 00:43:40.557
And Africans would be brought from

00:43:40.640 --> 00:43:42.157
hundreds of miles up all the way up into

00:43:42.240 --> 00:43:45.197
the Sahel, march down. A quarter to a

00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:50.237
third of them didn't survive. And so
this this is uh this is the dungeon at

00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:54.957
Cape Coast Castle. >> Wow. >> Okay.
And let me tell you something

00:43:55.040 --> 00:43:57.197
about this place, Joe. So that that this

00:43:57.280 --> 00:44:00.717
is uh man. So John Newton had in his

00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:04.477
journal um brought on board today um

00:44:04.560 --> 00:44:07.597
Africans marched I think 1,000 miles

00:44:07.680 --> 00:44:11.037
from the inland. Okay. So they were

00:44:11.120 --> 00:44:16.157
marched down and and eventually sold
to the Europeans who run these forts and

00:44:16.240 --> 00:44:19.677
castles all along the coast. The biggest
one was Cape Coast Castle. The British

00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:24.077
and the Dutch had one just cannon shot
away called Elmina Castle. This is in

00:44:24.160 --> 00:44:28.077
modern day Ghana and they were held
in the dungeon and you saw that picture of

00:44:28.160 --> 00:44:30.717
the dungeon. So the dungeon was divided

00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:35.277
between an area for men and an area
for women and children. There'd be at any

00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:37.437
given time a thousand human beings in

00:44:37.520 --> 00:44:40.957
there shackled down one shaft for light

00:44:41.040 --> 00:44:44.717
and where they drop food and water and I

00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:45.917
don't know if you Jamie if you had that

00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:48.077
photo again you saw like a little narrow

00:44:48.160 --> 00:44:52.157
groove down the floor of the dungeon and

00:44:52.240 --> 00:44:55.837
there you see that you see that groove
down the floor of the dungeon and that's

00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.557
supposed to siphon away their piss and

00:44:58.640 --> 00:45:01.677
[__] and menstrual blood and so you can

00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:04.797
imagine a thousand people in there Now

00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:08.157
it always is full and clogged and rainy

00:45:08.240 --> 00:45:10.077
season whatever. So eventually the whole

00:45:10.160 --> 00:45:13.997
thing is covered in sludge of sewage.

00:45:14.080 --> 00:45:18.797
Okay. And so they would spend months
down here, Joe. They would spend months

00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:23.437
down here and many people didn't survive
that experience. So you're marched from

00:45:23.520 --> 00:45:26.877
the from the inland regions hundreds of
miles. Didn't maybe didn't survive that.

00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:29.037
If you did, you're in this dungeon.

00:45:29.120 --> 00:45:33.677
You're spending months down
here and then eventually

00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:37.757
there's the male slave dungeon entrance
at Cape Coast Castle. So eventually the

00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:41.117
ships come from Western
Europe with all their stuff

00:45:41.200 --> 00:45:45.757
and uh they come up to Cape Coast Castle.
They park in the roads. They

00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:49.597
drop anchor. It's about a mile or two
offshore. They take a canoe up to the

00:45:49.680 --> 00:45:52.477
castle and they meet the governor.
And the governor says, "Okay, you know,

00:45:52.560 --> 00:45:56.237
let's let's do our business." And they
go into the dungeon and they bring out a

00:45:56.320 --> 00:46:00.637
parcel of slaves. Some men, some women,
and some children. They first clean

00:46:00.720 --> 00:46:02.397
them. Remember, they're covered in

00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:04.877
sewage and filth. And they cover them in

00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:07.997
palm oil to make them look healthy.

00:46:08.080 --> 00:46:11.117
And the captain will say, "I'll take
this one, this one, this one." His

00:46:11.200 --> 00:46:15.757
surgeon or doctor will inspect them,
open their mouths, check their lymph

00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:19.597
nodes, make them cough, make sure
they're not sick and unwell, and and

00:46:19.680 --> 00:46:21.437
then they purchase these slaves and then

00:46:21.520 --> 00:46:23.437
brand them.

00:46:23.520 --> 00:46:27.037
and they brand them. Put uh some palm

00:46:27.120 --> 00:46:30.477
oil on their shoulder, brand them so
they know which one they bought because

00:46:30.560 --> 00:46:33.277
they're going to go down to the next
fort, buy a few, buy a few, and then

00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:36.717
when they've got all the several hundred
to load up the ship, they come back and

00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:38.797
get them. When I went into the dungeon

00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:41.997
at Cape Coast,

00:46:42.080 --> 00:46:47.117
it's a kind of a cobbled floor. And then
I got to this one section, Joe, that was

00:46:47.200 --> 00:46:51.837
smooth. And I had managed
to get a single guide

00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:53.837
from the Ministry of Museums to take me

00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:56.477
around. So before I wrote about it, I

00:46:56.560 --> 00:47:01.277
wanted to see it and experience it.
And you can see it's kind of cobbly. And

00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:04.557
then there's there's some sections
that are smooth. And they had one that was

00:47:04.640 --> 00:47:08.397
just perfectly smooth. And I said,
"Why is this so perfectly smooth here?" He

00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:11.437
said, "We left this just the way we

00:47:11.520 --> 00:47:14.717
found it. This is the sedimented urine,

00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:18.077
piss, [__] menstrual blood of the

00:47:18.160 --> 00:47:22.317
people who were held here for centuries.

00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:26.797
And we don't learn that, you know,
we don't learn that when we learn about

00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:29.037
slavery. We don't learn about these

00:47:29.120 --> 00:47:35.037
visceral details of what
people had to endure

00:47:35.120 --> 00:47:38.077
before they even were put on the ship.

00:47:38.160 --> 00:47:40.637
Now, let's talk about the ship, you

00:47:40.720 --> 00:47:44.157
know, which is a floating dungeon.

00:47:44.240 --> 00:47:46.957
The the deep sea fairing vessel, Joe, is

00:47:47.040 --> 00:47:49.437
a marvel of engineering.

00:47:49.520 --> 00:47:53.357
It's a marvel of vision and ambition and

00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:58.077
European genius. Oh,
Jamie's skipping ahead here, too.

00:47:58.160 --> 00:48:00.317
>> The I jumped. Sorry.

00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:03.037
>> The the visual imagery. We talk about

00:48:03.120 --> 00:48:07.357
abolition. All right. We're going
to talk about the first use of a viral

00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:09.197
image

00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:13.677
which Jamie gave us a prelude to.

00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:17.037
So the the deep seafaring vessel is it's

00:48:17.120 --> 00:48:20.237
it's a testament to European genius and

00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:24.077
ambition and vision and exploration.

00:48:24.160 --> 00:48:26.877
There's no other way to look at it.

00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:29.437
There was an earth that was here and

00:48:29.520 --> 00:48:31.277
people were all in their pockets until

00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:34.957
the Portuguese and the Spanish

00:48:35.040 --> 00:48:39.357
developed a ship that
could cross an ocean.

00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:43.117
And this was the early 1400s, the age
of exploration. You learn about this in

00:48:43.200 --> 00:48:45.677
high school. Prince Henry the navigator

00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:47.917
got his ships. We need to see the rest

00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:51.757
of the world. What else is out there?

00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:56.717
Maybe some riches. And the Portuguese,
they they started going south and they

00:48:56.800 --> 00:49:01.037
hit the Canaries, Canary Islands off
the coast of West Africa. Shipwreck,

00:49:01.120 --> 00:49:05.197
shipwreck, shipwreck. The winds were
just too intense, too violent, too

00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:07.437
counterveailing. Their ships could not

00:49:07.520 --> 00:49:10.477
handle it. Portuguese devented invented

00:49:10.560 --> 00:49:14.797
a specific sail called a a latine rig.

00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:16.237
All right? So, it's shaped like a

00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:19.917
triangle. And rather than a traditional

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:22.557
square sail that gets pushed by the

00:49:22.640 --> 00:49:25.677
wind, the Latin rig, you can swivel it

00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:28.717
to function like a bird's wing. So you

00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:31.917
can tack into the wind like a bird does.

00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:34.317
And so the Portuguese are the first to

00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:36.797
get past the Canary Islands,

00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:41.197
1420s, 1430s. And and the caravl takes

00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:43.677
Europeans south of the Canaries and they

00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:45.757
get down to the west coast of Africa.

00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:50.317
They they they round the Cape of Good
Hope and and by the end of the 15th

00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:51.597
century the Portuguese have reached

00:49:51.680 --> 00:49:55.037
India. It's

00:49:55.120 --> 00:49:57.837
extraordinary

00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:00.877
exploration triumph of navigation and

00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:02.797
genius.

00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:05.917
Then we get Christopher Columbus. Oh

00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:08.557
man, Portuguese of they all the way over

00:50:08.640 --> 00:50:09.997
to India and they had to go all the way

00:50:10.080 --> 00:50:13.997
around Africa. Maybe there's a shortcut.

00:50:14.080 --> 00:50:16.797
I'm gonna go that way.

00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:17.997
Let [laughter] me go that way. It's got

00:50:18.080 --> 00:50:21.757
to be a shortcut, you know. So, so he

00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:24.717
goes west. I'm gonna find a better way.

00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:30.397
He lands in the Bahamas. India. Indians.

00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:32.397
All right. Okay. [laughter] You know, we

00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:34.637
laugh, but I mean, he crossed the

00:50:34.720 --> 00:50:37.437
Atlantic first in in his ship. He got he

00:50:37.520 --> 00:50:43.117
got here and and he starts the Spanish

00:50:43.200 --> 00:50:45.517
reconoitering of this this part of the

00:50:45.600 --> 00:50:49.757
planet. The pope pope is Alexander V 6

00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:53.837
says, "Okay, you Spanish, you Portuguese,
you've kind of you've you're

00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:57.677
starting to sus out the rest of the
world and I want you to get along. So,

00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:02.157
I'm going to draw a line down
the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

00:51:02.240 --> 00:51:06.077
And everything east of that line,
Portugal, that's for you. Everything

00:51:06.160 --> 00:51:07.757
west of that line, Spain, that's for

00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:11.437
you. So, Spain colonized the Americas

00:51:11.520 --> 00:51:17.240
and Portugal colonized
Africa and India first.

00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:21.757
Now, the Europeans

00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:23.117
came across something during the

00:51:23.200 --> 00:51:27.357
Crusades that captivated

00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:30.317
their taste buds. They called it sweet

00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:31.997
salt.

00:51:32.080 --> 00:51:34.637
Today, we call it sugar. There's no

00:51:34.720 --> 00:51:37.677
sugar in Europe till the Crusades

00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:39.917
because it doesn't grow there. It grows

00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:42.797
in warm tropical places.

00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:46.637
So 1494, the Pope divides the world and

00:51:46.720 --> 00:51:49.197
Spain and Portugal are now in tropical

00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:53.277
places where you can grow sugar. And

00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:57.117
>> that is so insane to hear, but makes

00:51:57.200 --> 00:52:01.037
complete and total sense that people
didn't know about sugar until the 1400s.

00:52:01.120 --> 00:52:02.397
Well, they came across it in the

00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:05.437
Crusades, you know, 12,300 Europeans.

00:52:05.520 --> 00:52:10.477
Like, oh, these Arabs have got
some sugar. It's nice, you know,

00:52:10.560 --> 00:52:11.757
>> and they're getting it from cane.

00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:14.477
They're just >> processing it.
Sugarcane. Yeah. Yeah.

00:52:14.560 --> 00:52:19.277
Yeah. So, uh because it doesn't
grow in that part of the world.

00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:22.957
>> So, what did they do to sweeten
things in Europe back then? Just honey.

00:52:23.040 --> 00:52:25.757
>> Honey, berry juices. >> Wow.

00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:27.837
>> Sugar. Sugar is another level, right?

00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:31.597
>> Yeah. >> Sugar's another level. So,

00:52:31.680 --> 00:52:35.517
so they divide the world and they start
setting up their sugar plantations. And

00:52:35.600 --> 00:52:38.317
the Portuguese tap into existing systems

00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:42.877
of slavery in Africa. Let's be clear
about that. Europeans didn't bring

00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:44.957
slavery to Africa. There was slavery

00:52:45.040 --> 00:52:48.237
there. They tap into those systems to

00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:50.317
populate their sugar plantations along

00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:54.077
the African coast with slave labor.

00:52:54.160 --> 00:52:56.877
Now, the Spanish

00:52:56.960 --> 00:53:01.357
decimate native populations. Okay.
The Mayans, the Aztecs, they get

00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:05.997
here and through guns and disease and war
and they're decimating local populations.

00:53:06.080 --> 00:53:09.757
>> Mayans. >> Mayans. >> Yeah.

00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:12.957
>> So, they don't have a labor force.

00:53:13.040 --> 00:53:16.157
So, King Charles in 1518 says, "Okay,

00:53:16.240 --> 00:53:20.317
Portuguese, you got these Africans.
Can you send some over here?"

00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:24.477
And that's 1518. to the Portuguese.
He send he gives them a contract to bring

00:53:24.560 --> 00:53:27.197
me 4,000 Africans to come work these

00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:31.917
sugar plantations because they seem
to be doing a good job working on yours.

00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:36.637
Thus begins the era
of the Atlantic slave trade.

00:53:36.720 --> 00:53:40.477
It was about bringing Africans over
to the Spanish colonies to work on the

00:53:40.560 --> 00:53:45.037
sugar plantations.
And the Portuguese and the Spanish are

00:53:45.120 --> 00:53:49.197
running this triangular circuit,
bringing goods down to Africa, buying

00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:51.917
Africans, taking them across. There you

00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:54.477
go. Um, dropping them in sugar

00:53:54.560 --> 00:53:59.597
plantations, and then getting the output
of sugar labor, which is sugar, rum,

00:53:59.680 --> 00:54:03.837
molasses, whatever, taking it back
to Europe, selling it, and then repeating

00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:06.557
the triangle. >> How were
they so good at getting across

00:54:06.640 --> 00:54:10.877
the ocean, but so bad at thinking
that they were in India?

00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:14.637
That seems so insane. Like how
much of a map did they have of

00:54:14.720 --> 00:54:16.557
>> They had They had nothing west.

00:54:16.640 --> 00:54:19.277
>> They had nothing west. Nothing west.

00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:22.717
When when the Portuguese first started
going south, they had nothing of Africa

00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:27.197
except the northern
coast from Roman times.

00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:32.877
When you look at maps in the
in the 1400s, it's blank slate.

00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:35.677
>> That's nuts.
>> So they they and they were first

00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:39.517
attracted by gold, right? They heard
these stories, these mythical stories of

00:54:39.600 --> 00:54:41.117
gold. And when the Portuguese got to

00:54:41.200 --> 00:54:43.117
West Africa, they called it Costa

00:54:43.200 --> 00:54:47.117
delamina deora, the coast of gold mines.

00:54:47.200 --> 00:54:49.437
There was gold everywhere. The slave

00:54:49.520 --> 00:54:54.317
trade came later because of sugar.
Uh then the British and the Dutch. And

00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:58.317
>> so sugar was the start.
>> Sugar was the dominant force.

00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:02.797
>> There was always slave labor. There was
always slave and slave trade. But that's

00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:06.877
when it really ramped up. That's when
the whole triangular trade, the Atlantic

00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:08.477
slave trade, the world's first

00:55:08.560 --> 00:55:11.757
globalized economy was born from sugar.

00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:14.397
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00:56:23.200 --> 00:56:24.797
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00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:31.117
generating centuries
of generational wealth. So

00:56:31.200 --> 00:56:32.957
on the eve of the American Revolution,

00:56:33.040 --> 00:56:35.037
just to give you a sense, okay, so we're

00:56:35.120 --> 00:56:39.437
talking 1773, 1774,

00:56:39.520 --> 00:56:42.877
uh by this time the British are
the dominant force in the Atlantic slave

00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:45.837
trade and they became the dominant force

00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:50.317
uh taking over Caribbean islands.
Their prized was Jamaica,

00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:54.317
which became the largest sugar
plantation economy in the world at that

00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:57.517
time. Uh so on the eve
of the revolutionary

00:56:57.600 --> 00:57:01.757
war of course they had the 13 American

00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:05.757
colonies and they had
some Caribbean islands

00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:06.797
just to give you a sense of how

00:57:06.880 --> 00:57:10.237
important sugar was. If you take all the

00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:14.077
exports from all 13 American colonies

00:57:14.160 --> 00:57:17.357
and you take sugar from Jamaica,

00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:19.357
the value of those sugar exports from

00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:21.757
Jamaica was five times the combined

00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:24.397
value of all 13 exports of everything

00:57:24.480 --> 00:57:27.597
from all 13 colonies.

00:57:27.680 --> 00:57:31.677
Wow. So sugar generated

00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:34.157
enormous wealth for Western Europe. And

00:57:34.240 --> 00:57:37.277
so thus the slave trade persisted and

00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:41.917
persisted. Are any of the companies
that were making sugar back then, are they

00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:43.437
still around?

00:57:43.520 --> 00:57:46.877
>> Uh, not that I'm aware. No. I mean, uh,

00:57:46.960 --> 00:57:49.757
it's the sugar sugar, the way sugar is

00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:54.077
made today, of course, is is different
than these slave plantations that were

00:57:54.160 --> 00:57:58.157
erected by first Portugal and Spain,
then later the British and the Dutch.

00:57:58.240 --> 00:58:01.037
So, the Zorg is actually a Dutch slave

00:58:01.120 --> 00:58:05.277
ship, and it set sail around uh in

00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:07.437
October 1780. So, we're in the heart of

00:58:07.520 --> 00:58:11.437
American Revolutionary War and the

00:58:11.520 --> 00:58:14.717
British had been the dominant force of
the slave trade. So, remember I told you

00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:16.957
we're in the dungeon, okay? And the

00:58:17.040 --> 00:58:18.957
slave captain comes around and he's

00:58:19.040 --> 00:58:21.997
bartering for these people and he spends

00:58:22.080 --> 00:58:25.597
a couple of months acquiring Africans in

00:58:25.680 --> 00:58:29.037
this castle, this fort, this place,
brands them, and then eventually he

00:58:29.120 --> 00:58:33.757
loads up his ship with, depending on the
size of the ship, three, four, five, six

00:58:33.840 --> 00:58:37.597
Africans. and loads his
food and water and he has

00:58:37.680 --> 00:58:41.357
to cross the Atlantic.
What's called the middle passage

00:58:41.440 --> 00:58:43.677
and the design of these ships, the

00:58:43.760 --> 00:58:46.237
design of a slave ship was specific,

00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:50.077
okay? Uh designed for human cargo.

00:58:50.160 --> 00:58:52.957
The bottom was the food and water
and then they had what's called the tween

00:58:53.040 --> 00:58:57.437
deck. And all right, Jamie, you can
you can throw up that photo now. We're

00:58:57.520 --> 00:59:00.557
ready. >> All right. So,
here you've got the tween

00:59:00.640 --> 00:59:02.637
deck. All right. This is the schematic.

00:59:02.720 --> 00:59:04.637
And this this is an important schematic.

00:59:04.720 --> 00:59:09.357
This is the Brooks slave ship out of
Liverpool. And you see the bottom of the

00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:12.797
tween deck. The shipmaster is showing
you how to line up the Africans. They're

00:59:12.880 --> 00:59:16.237
given 16 inches of space each

00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:18.637
like the to quote John Newton who we

00:59:18.720 --> 00:59:21.357
talked about like books on a shelf.

00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:25.197
They're to be entered
and stowed like books on a shelf.

00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:28.317
>> So each human is allotted
16 inches of space.

00:59:28.400 --> 00:59:31.517
>> Yeah, that's right. Now, why are they

00:59:31.600 --> 00:59:35.837
laying down? Okay. So, you're lining
them all up, filling up every available

00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:38.317
possible piece of space. And then

00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:40.157
there's a second level here where you

00:59:40.240 --> 00:59:43.997
see them around this horseshoe. So, they

00:59:44.080 --> 00:59:47.837
built a partition. You can see
at the bottom left there, they built a

00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:50.317
partition so that they could maximize

00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:53.837
the cargo, the human capacity cargo of

00:59:53.920 --> 00:59:56.797
this vessel. So, you can't sit upright.

00:59:56.880 --> 01:00:00.717
you're shackled down, laying down, and
then there's a partition built and then

01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:03.517
there's another level of people like the

01:00:03.600 --> 01:00:06.557
the overhead bin space. Okay, you're

01:00:06.640 --> 01:00:11.197
just lining these people up and they're
lined up like this uh for two months to

01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:13.197
cross the Atlantic.

01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:18.637
And you may ask yourself,
what happens if you're seasick?

01:00:18.720 --> 01:00:22.637
What happens if a woman has her period?

01:00:22.720 --> 01:00:26.637
Some women gave birth in these conditions.

01:00:26.720 --> 01:00:28.077
What happens if you have to just go to

01:00:28.160 --> 01:00:30.637
the bathroom?

01:00:30.720 --> 01:00:34.317
So, they put buckets,

01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:37.997
distributed them along the uh what's

01:00:38.080 --> 01:00:42.077
called what they call the tween deck,
this cargo here. And if you needed the

01:00:42.160 --> 01:00:45.917
bathroom, you had to try and get to that
bucket with your chained partner, your

01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:48.717
chained two 2 by two. And of course, you

01:00:48.800 --> 01:00:50.877
never made it in time. And the ship is

01:00:50.960 --> 01:00:53.757
tossing and turning. And so in a matter

01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:56.077
of just a few days or a week, this

01:00:56.160 --> 01:00:59.757
entire deck is covered in in human piss

01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:03.277
and [__] and blood and vomit uh and

01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:05.037
misery.

01:01:05.120 --> 01:01:10.397
And that's for the two
months of the crossing.

01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:13.117
They don't teach us this, Joe.

01:01:13.200 --> 01:01:16.397
They don't teach us this part of it. So,

01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:19.917
here's a here's a shipmaster telling you

01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:23.917
how you can maximize the profit in the
Brooks slave ship that he's building for

01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:30.317
the Brooks Liverpool family
and line these people up.

01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:33.117
Now, they're brought up uh in the

01:01:33.200 --> 01:01:36.237
morning and dowsted with seaater and

01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:39.037
given a little bit of food and half pint

01:01:39.120 --> 01:01:43.357
of water to drink. uh the men are kept
in the front of the ship and the women

01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:44.957
and children in the back and they built

01:01:45.040 --> 01:01:47.917
a barricade down the middle to keep the

01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:50.477
men on one side because

01:01:50.560 --> 01:01:55.277
um you can imagine let's say you're one
of these Africans. You got that roll of

01:01:55.360 --> 01:01:57.037
the dice.

01:01:57.120 --> 01:01:59.677
You uh you're going to try to do

01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:02.397
anything you can to get control of that

01:02:02.480 --> 01:02:04.317
ship.

01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:07.677
And so slave insur insurrections were a

01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:10.717
common effort at resistance.

01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:13.357
And so the Europeans built a barricade

01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:16.077
down the middle of every slave ship so

01:02:16.160 --> 01:02:20.557
that if somehow the slaves managed
to revolt, they would quickly get to the

01:02:20.640 --> 01:02:24.397
back, the stern side, where they could
still control the ship. They had cannons

01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:27.117
mounted on the barricade to suppress the

01:02:27.200 --> 01:02:29.917
insurrection.

01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:34.397
>> They would shoot a cannon into their
own boat. It was either that or lose the

01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:39.997
ship. And usually a couple of shots
would call the insurrection.

01:02:40.080 --> 01:02:43.117
Now, you had to punish
the insurrectionist. And I'm telling you

01:02:43.200 --> 01:02:47.037
this because captains wrote about all
this stuff. They they wrote about this.

01:02:47.120 --> 01:02:50.397
And then there was one captain out
of Liverpool who said, "I find that the

01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:55.117
punishment for an insurrection that
works best to ensure that there's not

01:02:55.200 --> 01:02:59.597
another one is if you take one of the
insurrection leaders, chop him to pieces

01:02:59.680 --> 01:03:03.917
while he's alive, and distribute the
pieces to the other slaves." This seems

01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:08.600
to quell any further
effort at insurrection.

01:03:09.200 --> 01:03:10.957
Horror.

01:03:11.040 --> 01:03:13.357
Just horror.

01:03:13.440 --> 01:03:16.957
Now they'd be whipped

01:03:17.040 --> 01:03:22.040
and you can imagine what
happened to women and girls.

01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:26.957
Uh one slave captain said um sailors

01:03:27.040 --> 01:03:29.517
gratify their passions bruteike in front

01:03:29.600 --> 01:03:32.477
of the in front of the others with girls

01:03:32.560 --> 01:03:36.840
not 10 years old. You know people

01:03:37.120 --> 01:03:40.397
there were no laws on that ship. It was

01:03:40.480 --> 01:03:43.197
in a moral abyss.

01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:45.837
out in the middle of the ocean.

01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:49.837
And so in the case of the Zorg,
they're taking these Africans across the

01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:53.117
Atlantic.
And this is the kind of stuff that

01:03:53.200 --> 01:03:57.357
happens. There's an insurrection. Uh
that's one form of protest. Another form

01:03:57.440 --> 01:04:00.077
of protest is a hunger strike. I'm not

01:04:00.160 --> 01:04:02.717
going to eat.

01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:05.757
I'll just die. I'd rather die. If you've

01:04:05.840 --> 01:04:10.237
already survived the march from the
inland, lived in the Cape Coast Castle

01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:14.157
dungeon for a few months
in your own [__] and piss

01:04:14.240 --> 01:04:19.197
and then you're stuck in the ship like
I don't know where this is going, but I'm

01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:22.157
going to stop eating. I'd rather be dead.

01:04:22.240 --> 01:04:25.117
The Europeans had a tool for that called

01:04:25.200 --> 01:04:28.717
the speculum orus. And it was initially

01:04:28.800 --> 01:04:32.477
a device used to pry open jaws when you

01:04:32.560 --> 01:04:34.397
had lock jaw.

01:04:34.480 --> 01:04:37.037
The slave ship captains got some of

01:04:37.120 --> 01:04:42.397
these and if you didn't want to eat,
they jammed it in your mouth, forced it

01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:46.557
open, and shoved the food down your
throat, cracking probably half your

01:04:46.640 --> 01:04:50.957
teeth and lacerating your tongue in the
process, and then others would then fall

01:04:51.040 --> 01:04:56.157
in line, and that's the end of the
hunger strike. So the the level of

01:04:56.240 --> 01:04:57.837
barbarity taking place on these ships

01:04:57.920 --> 01:05:00.877
that people had to endure

01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:03.837
is heart-wrenching.

01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:05.757
Uh but it's important for us to come to

01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:08.397
terms with this historically

01:05:08.480 --> 01:05:11.757
so we understand what we're capable of.

01:05:11.840 --> 01:05:14.397
Uh and how to keep this kind of inhumity

01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:16.077
from happening again. And that gets us

01:05:16.160 --> 01:05:19.437
to the to the glimmer of hope from all

01:05:19.520 --> 01:05:23.597
this. So this ship crosses the Atlantic.

01:05:23.680 --> 01:05:26.237
uh it was a Dutch ship, okay, in the

01:05:26.320 --> 01:05:28.717
midst of the American Revolutionary War

01:05:28.800 --> 01:05:33.277
and everybody was using the American re

01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:35.197
revolutionary war as a chance to get

01:05:35.280 --> 01:05:38.317
payback on the Brits because the Brits

01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:41.597
were the power of the day and uh the

01:05:41.680 --> 01:05:45.357
French, the Spanish, the Dutch with the

01:05:45.440 --> 01:05:47.837
British Navy stretched thin trying to

01:05:47.920 --> 01:05:50.317
fight off the Americans, they use this

01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:55.517
as an opportunity to pick off some ships
there. Oh, Barbados is unguarded. Let's

01:05:55.600 --> 01:05:59.037
go take Barbados, you know. And so
the the Brits are fighting everybody at

01:05:59.120 --> 01:06:01.997
once. And their response to this was,

01:06:02.080 --> 01:06:03.757
"Okay, anybody with this ship, you are

01:06:03.840 --> 01:06:07.437
hereby given approval to be a pirate.

01:06:07.520 --> 01:06:11.597
Just go pirate the hell out of anybody
you see with a Dutch flag, a French

01:06:11.680 --> 01:06:16.317
flag, Spanish flag, any flag, American
flag. Just go pirate them to hell. We

01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:17.837
need help. Our navy can't handle

01:06:17.920 --> 01:06:20.797
everything." So, British take to the

01:06:20.880 --> 01:06:26.397
seas as pirates. So, a British pirate
ship captures this Dutch ship off the

01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:27.757
coast of Africa.

01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:30.557
>> Whoa. And it already had a couple

01:06:30.640 --> 01:06:33.517
hundred slaves in it. This British

01:06:33.600 --> 01:06:35.197
pirate,

01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:39.837
Captain William Llewellyn of HMS Alert,

01:06:39.920 --> 01:06:43.117
captures the Zorg off the coast of

01:06:43.200 --> 01:06:46.397
Liberia and finds two other Dutch ships

01:06:46.480 --> 01:06:50.317
and takes them over to Cape
Coast Castle headquarters.

01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:53.837
And he looks at the other captains there,
British captain, says, "Look, I

01:06:53.920 --> 01:06:57.597
got some Dutch prizes here with some
slaves and there's some gold and ivory.

01:06:57.680 --> 01:06:59.677
I'm I'm I'm auctioning this stuff

01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:01.197
today."

01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:05.597
and uh a Liverpool captain named Hanley

01:07:05.680 --> 01:07:07.197
who's captain of a ship called the

01:07:07.280 --> 01:07:10.477
William. I'll take that one. I'll take

01:07:10.560 --> 01:07:14.397
the Zorg and everything in it. So, they

01:07:14.480 --> 01:07:19.277
didn't have Venmo and cash and all
that back then. So, you write up an IOU.

01:07:19.360 --> 01:07:23.197
It was called a bill of exchange. So,
Hanley gives a bill of exchange in the

01:07:23.280 --> 01:07:27.357
name of his slave merchant creditor,
a Liverpool wealthy guy named William

01:07:27.440 --> 01:07:31.277
Gregson. He says,
"You just take that to Greggson

01:07:31.360 --> 01:07:33.437
for this agreed upon fee. I'll take the

01:07:33.520 --> 01:07:35.597
Zorg." And so now he's got a two for

01:07:35.680 --> 01:07:39.837
one. Okay. So he takes half his crew and

01:07:39.920 --> 01:07:43.037
he sticks it on the Zorg uh and names

01:07:43.120 --> 01:07:45.757
his the doctor of his ship to be captain

01:07:45.840 --> 01:07:48.477
of the Zorg. And he says, "You fill up

01:07:48.560 --> 01:07:51.357
the rest of the cargo and meet me in

01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:53.837
Jamaica."

01:07:53.920 --> 01:07:57.597
And and so the captain does that. Um he

01:07:57.680 --> 01:08:02.317
loads up his ship. He overloads it. Um

01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:04.157
should have been no more than about 300

01:08:04.240 --> 01:08:06.637
slaves loaded into a ship the Zorg size

01:08:06.720 --> 01:08:09.997
which was about a 100 ton ship. He loads

01:08:10.080 --> 01:08:16.397
440 Africans into it and he picks up a

01:08:16.480 --> 01:08:20.797
stranger on the West
African coast. You remember

01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:24.717
I told you these forts
and castles all had governors.

01:08:24.800 --> 01:08:29.037
They come down from Europe and their job
is to run the castle and barter for

01:08:29.120 --> 01:08:30.557
slaves and so on. That's how the

01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:33.437
machinery worked. [snorts]

01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:38.157
And these guys were just dumb.

01:08:38.240 --> 01:08:40.397
You read about them. They're just a

01:08:40.480 --> 01:08:43.757
bunch of incompetent fools who come run

01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:48.077
these castles and forts and they're
always arguing and bickering and writing

01:08:48.160 --> 01:08:51.437
letters back and forth to each other
like some teenagers and oh, you know,

01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:54.317
you did this and you did that and then
they're writing to their bosses back in

01:08:54.400 --> 01:08:55.837
England and oh, you know, he did this

01:08:55.920 --> 01:09:00.957
and it's it's like a soap opera. And the

01:09:01.040 --> 01:09:02.877
Zorg is going by, he's going to another

01:09:02.960 --> 01:09:06.397
fort uh on the Gold Coast, Ghana, uh

01:09:06.480 --> 01:09:08.557
which had a slave auction room called

01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:13.197
Anumabu, the fort at Anumabu. And the

01:09:13.280 --> 01:09:16.477
governors decide to kick out
the governor of Anumabu that day because

01:09:16.560 --> 01:09:17.837
they just can't stand him. His name is

01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:20.317
Robert Stubs. He's just a scoundrel and

01:09:20.400 --> 01:09:23.597
he's just a wretch of a human being. And

01:09:23.680 --> 01:09:25.357
they kick him out on the same day that

01:09:25.440 --> 01:09:27.677
the Zorg is passing by. So Stubs takes

01:09:27.760 --> 01:09:31.357
refuge on the ship

01:09:31.440 --> 01:09:35.357
and eventually the ship is loaded
with slaves and it's making its way across

01:09:35.440 --> 01:09:37.917
the Atlantic

01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:40.877
and the captain gets sick and he can't

01:09:40.960 --> 01:09:43.837
run the ship and

01:09:43.920 --> 01:09:46.237
he's supposed to appoint his first mate.

01:09:46.320 --> 01:09:48.557
That maritime protocol first mate takes

01:09:48.640 --> 01:09:53.197
over. For some reason he appoints Stubs.

01:09:53.280 --> 01:09:56.957
>> Oh my god. And Joe, you can't make like

01:09:57.040 --> 01:10:00.557
you had a nice conversation with um

01:10:00.640 --> 01:10:03.037
Taylor Sheridan, you know, I love his

01:10:03.120 --> 01:10:06.157
shows. If Taylor Sheridan were to write

01:10:06.240 --> 01:10:08.957
Robert Stubs as one of his bad guys,

01:10:09.040 --> 01:10:11.437
people would say, "Get out of here, man.

01:10:11.520 --> 01:10:14.637
Nobody is that pure, bad, stupid, evil,

01:10:14.720 --> 01:10:18.477
awful. There's got to be some nuance
to this character. We don't accept that."

01:10:18.560 --> 01:10:23.437
Sometimes people are just bad, awful,
horrible people. And this guy was one of

01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:27.597
them. He takes over
the ship and he doesn't

01:10:27.680 --> 01:10:32.157
know what he's doing and the ship
gets off course. Now, the thing about

01:10:32.240 --> 01:10:37.277
crossing the Atlantic
is there's no pit stops.

01:10:37.360 --> 01:10:41.117
The food and water you have when you
leave Africa is the food and water that

01:10:41.200 --> 01:10:43.197
has to last you until you reach the new

01:10:43.280 --> 01:10:46.157
world, the other side.

01:10:46.240 --> 01:10:50.317
And if you get off course or delayed or

01:10:50.400 --> 01:10:52.637
get caught in a storm,

01:10:52.720 --> 01:10:55.757
uh you might be in trouble.

01:10:55.840 --> 01:10:57.997
And this is what happens with the Zorg.

01:10:58.080 --> 01:11:01.517
Stubs is leading them off course.

01:11:01.600 --> 01:11:06.157
They uh should only need two months to

01:11:06.240 --> 01:11:09.757
go from West Africa to Jamaica. Every

01:11:09.840 --> 01:11:13.997
decent captain can get his ship
across the Atlantic in two months.

01:11:14.080 --> 01:11:17.917
And you expect about a 15% mortality
rate on the Africans. They will get

01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:22.397
dysentery because they're living
in their own piss and [__] and they will

01:11:22.480 --> 01:11:26.157
take their own lives and they will do
things. You you accept about a 15% loss

01:11:26.240 --> 01:11:29.917
of life. People start dying.
The ship is off

01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:33.757
course. It's been two months, been
two and a half months. We get to three

01:11:33.840 --> 01:11:35.037
months and they don't know where they

01:11:35.120 --> 01:11:39.277
are. They finally sight tobago at the

01:11:39.360 --> 01:11:43.837
far eastern edge of Caribbean ocean
Caribbean Sea. And so they have a sense,

01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:47.997
okay, Jamaica's 10 days that way. Let's
do a quick water check, make sure we got

01:11:48.080 --> 01:11:52.317
enough because we've already been quite
delayed. And they do a check of the

01:11:52.400 --> 01:11:56.317
water and it seems that they
have enough to get to Jamaica.

01:11:56.400 --> 01:11:57.997
Now, the fascinating thing about sea

01:11:58.080 --> 01:12:00.637
navigation at that time, Joe, is you can

01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:05.757
tell latitude very easily.
You get your sex, you line it up, you

01:12:05.840 --> 01:12:07.197
can tell how many degrees north or south

01:12:07.280 --> 01:12:11.037
of the equator you are. Longitude

01:12:11.120 --> 01:12:15.677
was a harder measurement
to calculate. It's

01:12:15.760 --> 01:12:17.117
essentially you're trying to measure the

01:12:17.200 --> 01:12:19.597
rotation of the Earth and your position

01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:23.037
on it. And

01:12:23.120 --> 01:12:26.077
for most of human history,

01:12:26.160 --> 01:12:27.917
the largest

01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:30.077
cause of death on a ship, a deep

01:12:30.160 --> 01:12:33.597
seafaring vessel, was a shipwreck caused

01:12:33.680 --> 01:12:36.877
by botched longitude. It's not scurvy.

01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:39.437
It's not piracy or whatever. It's I

01:12:39.520 --> 01:12:41.357
thought I was there, but I'm actually

01:12:41.440 --> 01:12:47.197
over here and I just ran into an island
and got a shipwreck and everyone's dead.

01:12:47.280 --> 01:12:50.077
You want to know how
they measure longitude?

01:12:50.160 --> 01:12:52.797
It's called dead reckoning.

01:12:52.880 --> 01:12:55.037
And what you're supposed to do is you

01:12:55.120 --> 01:12:58.957
have a log and a rope and you have knots

01:12:59.040 --> 01:13:01.917
tied at regular intervals. And every six

01:13:02.000 --> 01:13:04.877
hours you need to throw the rope. You

01:13:04.960 --> 01:13:06.957
throw you throw the log into the into

01:13:07.040 --> 01:13:09.197
the water and you hold the rope in your

01:13:09.280 --> 01:13:12.317
hand and you you count how many knots

01:13:12.400 --> 01:13:15.357
pass through your hand in a 60-second

01:13:15.440 --> 01:13:17.757
period. And that gives you a speed in

01:13:17.840 --> 01:13:21.357
knots or nautical speed.

01:13:21.440 --> 01:13:26.077
And you do that every six hours.
And that gives you a sense of your speed.

01:13:26.160 --> 01:13:29.917
And you plot that against direction. And
you you can then calculate how far east

01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:34.557
or west you are of your starting point
and you enter that in your log book

01:13:34.640 --> 01:13:37.837
because of the log you just threw in the
ocean. So this is where the terms come

01:13:37.920 --> 01:13:41.837
from. >> That's crazy.
So people would now let's

01:13:41.920 --> 01:13:43.757
just say you're not too good at this.

01:13:43.840 --> 01:13:46.157
every error in measurement you make is

01:13:46.240 --> 01:13:49.597
accumulating on the previous one and you

01:13:49.680 --> 01:13:53.917
can end up hundreds of miles off course

01:13:54.000 --> 01:13:57.437
and suddenly an island's ro upon you and
you crash into it and that's the end of

01:13:57.520 --> 01:14:00.637
that. So for most of the deep sea

01:14:00.720 --> 01:14:03.517
fairing period people were just all

01:14:03.600 --> 01:14:07.277
right I think I'm 15 degrees west of

01:14:07.360 --> 01:14:10.557
where I was yesterday. Let me write that
down in my log book. Let me throw in the

01:14:10.640 --> 01:14:13.277
rope. Okay, [snorts] this is this is

01:14:13.360 --> 01:14:15.837
this was the level of uh uh measurement

01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:17.917
we're talking about.

01:14:18.000 --> 01:14:23.197
So, they site Tobago. They know where
they are at that point and they took way

01:14:23.280 --> 01:14:25.837
too long to get there, but they know
where they are. So, they know Jamaica is

01:14:25.920 --> 01:14:29.277
1,150 mi north by Northwest.
>> And they keep going.

01:14:29.360 --> 01:14:34.077
>> So, they had to get to Jamaica.
That was their destined port. Okay.

01:14:34.160 --> 01:14:35.997
So, they keep going. They keep going.

01:14:36.080 --> 01:14:38.637
They keep going. And

01:14:38.720 --> 01:14:40.557
not sighting land. not sighting land.

01:14:40.640 --> 01:14:43.837
Then on day 10, so about the right time,

01:14:43.920 --> 01:14:48.077
they sight land. Now, they have to make
sure it's Jamaica because what's right

01:14:48.160 --> 01:14:49.757
next to Jamaica to the west, it's an

01:14:49.840 --> 01:14:53.117
island called Hispanola, which was half

01:14:53.200 --> 01:14:56.077
Spanish, half French, would later become

01:14:56.160 --> 01:15:00.477
Dominican Republic and Haiti.
And that's enemy territory because we're

01:15:00.560 --> 01:15:01.277
in the middle of the American

01:15:01.360 --> 01:15:04.637
Revolutionary War. And uh we can't stop

01:15:04.720 --> 01:15:07.837
there. So, we need to make sure. So

01:15:07.920 --> 01:15:11.037
Stubs drops in his rope and his thing

01:15:11.120 --> 01:15:13.277
and he says, "Oh, this is 70 degrees

01:15:13.360 --> 01:15:16.077
west. That's Hispanola. Jamaica's the

01:15:16.160 --> 01:15:18.877
next one. Next one down." So they keep

01:15:18.960 --> 01:15:23.277
going. Should have just been one day,

01:15:23.360 --> 01:15:25.917
two days, three days. Turns out it was

01:15:26.000 --> 01:15:27.917
Jamaica.

01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:30.397
And they've gone three days past their

01:15:30.480 --> 01:15:33.357
destination. And now they're completely

01:15:33.440 --> 01:15:35.917
out of water.

01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:39.117
and to turn around and beat into the

01:15:39.200 --> 01:15:42.637
wind. That three days west is going to

01:15:42.720 --> 01:15:49.437
take them 10 days to get back because
they have to go into the wind. Now,

01:15:49.520 --> 01:15:53.597
at this point, they started with half
a crew of 17. Should have had a crew of

01:15:53.680 --> 01:15:55.757
30. Remember, Hanley divided his crew in

01:15:55.840 --> 01:15:58.877
half. So, they're down to just 11 guys.

01:15:58.960 --> 01:16:01.677
And the captain is sick to the point of

01:16:01.760 --> 01:16:04.237
lunacy. Stubs is running the ship and

01:16:04.320 --> 01:16:06.637
they've already lost about 70 Africans

01:16:06.720 --> 01:16:10.717
to dysentery and scurvy.

01:16:10.800 --> 01:16:14.920
So they have and they're out of water.

01:16:15.040 --> 01:16:19.757
So they make a decision.
In order to survive the 10 days to get

01:16:19.840 --> 01:16:21.677
back to Jamaica, we have to reduce the

01:16:21.760 --> 01:16:24.877
amount of water consumption on board.

01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:27.437
And their solution to doing this is to

01:16:27.520 --> 01:16:31.437
start throwing the Africans overboard.

01:16:31.520 --> 01:16:34.957
So across three days they start with

01:16:35.040 --> 01:16:37.757
women and children living breathing

01:16:37.840 --> 01:16:40.477
human beings sick and unwell and all

01:16:40.560 --> 01:16:45.197
that including one baby.

01:16:45.280 --> 01:16:50.957
They throw 130 to 140 Africans overboard

01:16:51.040 --> 01:16:56.317
into the sea to drown and their
bones are still down there.

01:16:56.400 --> 01:16:57.917
Okay.

01:16:58.000 --> 01:17:00.957
uh and then they reached Jamaica

01:17:01.040 --> 01:17:05.597
with a 50% mortality rate when you
include the number of people who died

01:17:05.680 --> 01:17:06.797
and the number of people they threw

01:17:06.880 --> 01:17:10.797
overboard. So half the slaves gone.

01:17:10.880 --> 01:17:12.957
They dock, they sell the slaves, they

01:17:13.040 --> 01:17:17.997
sold them through a process called
the scramble. The scramble is a slave mer

01:17:18.080 --> 01:17:22.237
slave broker says, "Okay, I got slaves
on this ship. Um let's agree on a

01:17:22.320 --> 01:17:24.877
price." The price agreed was £36. That's

01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:29.117
about $10,000 today. And the buyers, all

01:17:29.200 --> 01:17:33.277
the slaves are loaded into a pen.
They are covered in palm oil so they look

01:17:33.360 --> 01:17:35.197
healthy. Most of them have dysentery so

01:17:35.280 --> 01:17:37.917
they use oak to plug their anus for the

01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:41.277
for the portion of the sales and you run

01:17:41.360 --> 01:17:43.037
in with a rope and you rope off the ones

01:17:43.120 --> 01:17:46.397
you want and you gather them and then

01:17:46.480 --> 01:17:50.957
you you pay you pay the the brokers
and the slaves are taken off to the

01:17:51.040 --> 01:17:53.197
plantations. Now that should have been

01:17:53.280 --> 01:17:55.437
the end of the story. We should not know

01:17:55.520 --> 01:17:58.797
what happened on this ship

01:17:58.880 --> 01:18:02.077
except for greed.

01:18:02.160 --> 01:18:04.717
So the owner of the Zorg, the one who

01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:07.037
wrote that I owe you and he got news.

01:18:07.120 --> 01:18:09.357
Oh, Hanley, you got a two for one. Yes,

01:18:09.440 --> 01:18:11.357
here you go. Here's your money to the

01:18:11.440 --> 01:18:14.797
pirate and let me insure

01:18:14.880 --> 01:18:17.917
my new ship. So every slave ship that

01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:22.040
crossed the Atlantic was insured.

01:18:22.160 --> 01:18:24.797
Insurance was born out of the slave

01:18:24.880 --> 01:18:27.757
trade.

01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:31.997
>> It costs you 7
$800,000 equivalent today

01:18:32.080 --> 01:18:35.197
to kit out a slave ship. All the

01:18:35.280 --> 01:18:39.117
supplies, the crew, salaries, and all
that. So, it's a large amount of upfront

01:18:39.200 --> 01:18:43.437
capital. And you could
have a shipwreck, you

01:18:43.520 --> 01:18:45.517
could have a pirate take your ship. Uh,

01:18:45.600 --> 01:18:47.997
in which case it's all lost.

01:18:48.080 --> 01:18:51.437
So, there was a chap in London named

01:18:51.520 --> 01:18:53.757
Lloyd.

01:18:53.840 --> 01:18:56.877
Lloyd hung out at this coffee shop and

01:18:56.960 --> 01:19:01.197
he had an idea. Said, "Okay, you guys

01:19:01.280 --> 01:19:04.477
give me a small percent, let's call it a

01:19:04.560 --> 01:19:07.197
premium of the value of your ship and

01:19:07.280 --> 01:19:09.517
your cargo,

01:19:09.600 --> 01:19:12.957
and if you lose it all, I'll pay you an

01:19:13.040 --> 01:19:16.637
agreed upon value back. But if you don't

01:19:16.720 --> 01:19:19.437
lose it all, I keep the premium.

01:19:19.520 --> 01:19:22.557
And Lloyd's Coffee Shop, which then

01:19:22.640 --> 01:19:25.997
later became Lloyds of London,

01:19:26.080 --> 01:19:27.997
was the premier insurance underwriter

01:19:28.080 --> 01:19:30.877
for slave ships. And they had standard

01:19:30.960 --> 01:19:34.637
contracts that they wrote wrote up.

01:19:34.720 --> 01:19:39.677
And the slave trade blew up this business
because every slave captain and

01:19:39.760 --> 01:19:41.357
slave merchant wanted to ensure the

01:19:41.440 --> 01:19:45.277
slave the ship and all the cargo.

01:19:45.360 --> 01:19:48.317
So Gregson had taken out an insurance

01:19:48.400 --> 01:19:54.920
contract for the ship and and
his Africans 30 pounds ahead.

01:19:55.920 --> 01:19:59.037
When he learns that his ship lost half

01:19:59.120 --> 01:20:01.197
its cargo,

01:20:01.280 --> 01:20:04.797
he decides to make an insurance claim.

01:20:04.880 --> 01:20:08.317
And most insurance claims at the time

01:20:08.400 --> 01:20:10.797
were if slaves died in an insurrection,

01:20:10.880 --> 01:20:15.437
you can get compensated. But if they die
because of natural causes or they kill

01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:17.037
themselves, you don't get compensated.

01:20:17.120 --> 01:20:20.797
That's in the contract. So, no one had
ever said, "Well, what happens if you

01:20:20.880 --> 01:20:24.957
throw them overboard? Do you get
compensation then?" And so, Gregson's

01:20:25.040 --> 01:20:29.357
going to test this. And he tells
the insurance, "Uh, I want my compensation

01:20:29.440 --> 01:20:33.997
for the 200 slaves." And the insurance
company said, "Man, that's 50% mortality

01:20:34.080 --> 01:20:38.637
rate. That's let me check my actuary
table here. No, that's not standard.

01:20:38.720 --> 01:20:40.957
We're not going to pay."

01:20:41.040 --> 01:20:43.997
So he files a lawsuit. This is how we

01:20:44.080 --> 01:20:46.317
learn about what happened. Nobody knew,

01:20:46.400 --> 01:20:49.277
Joe, what was happening on these ships.

01:20:49.360 --> 01:20:53.197
Remember I told you King Charles 1518
when that's when it all started. We're

01:20:53.280 --> 01:20:58.477
in 1780. So two and a half centuries
this has been machines been running.

01:20:58.560 --> 01:20:59.917
Nobody knew what was happening on the

01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:01.757
ships except the captains themselves and

01:21:01.840 --> 01:21:05.837
the crew. So Gregson files a lawsuit.

01:21:05.920 --> 01:21:09.437
That lawsuit ends up in front of the
chief justice of the entire British

01:21:09.520 --> 01:21:12.157
Empire, the Earl of Mansfield, Titanic

01:21:12.240 --> 01:21:16.717
figure. And the court
cases at that time, there

01:21:16.800 --> 01:21:20.237
weren't court houses and all. It was held
in the Guild Hall, the London Guild

01:21:20.320 --> 01:21:23.277
Hall. And this is so fascinating, Joe,

01:21:23.360 --> 01:21:26.077
because it shows you how the whole

01:21:26.160 --> 01:21:28.877
course of history can bend toward

01:21:28.960 --> 01:21:31.197
goodness through the conscience of even

01:21:31.280 --> 01:21:33.437
one person,

01:21:33.520 --> 01:21:36.717
just one. So the trial is had. We don't

01:21:36.800 --> 01:21:39.437
have a transcript of this trial,

01:21:39.520 --> 01:21:43.837
but we know that the slave merchants won.
Judgment was for the slave

01:21:43.920 --> 01:21:45.117
merchants. You want to know who the only

01:21:45.200 --> 01:21:48.957
witness was? Stubs.

01:21:49.040 --> 01:21:52.797
Stubs is the only guy surviving.
He comes in and he says, "Yeah, yeah, we

01:21:52.880 --> 01:21:56.877
were out of water. We had absolutely
no choice. We had to throw the Africans

01:21:56.960 --> 01:21:59.677
overboard or we all would have died. It

01:21:59.760 --> 01:22:01.677
was absolutely necessary. And because

01:22:01.760 --> 01:22:05.437
it's necessary, insurance has to answer.

01:22:05.520 --> 01:22:07.917
Yeah, that makes sense. All right, you

01:22:08.000 --> 01:22:11.037
guys please pay Gregson 30 ahead for his

01:22:11.120 --> 01:22:15.357
Africans. That should have
been the end of it. But

01:22:15.440 --> 01:22:19.277
there was one person in the room that day
with a conscience, with a heart, and

01:22:19.360 --> 01:22:22.077
he's watching this trial take place, and

01:22:22.160 --> 01:22:24.397
he's wondering, "Wait a minute, why is

01:22:24.480 --> 01:22:27.757
no one talking about murder?

01:22:27.840 --> 01:22:32.077
He just said they threw 130 human beings
overboard to drown. And they're talking

01:22:32.160 --> 01:22:35.677
about insurance compensation, but no
one's talking about murder. So, this

01:22:35.760 --> 01:22:38.557
person writes an anonymous letter to the

01:22:38.640 --> 01:22:41.677
largest newspaper in London asking this

01:22:41.760 --> 01:22:45.677
question. I just saw this. No one's
talking about murder. Weren't these

01:22:45.760 --> 01:22:46.957
people murdered? How come there's not a

01:22:47.040 --> 01:22:49.277
murder charge here?

01:22:49.360 --> 01:22:53.117
And there was a small community of

01:22:53.200 --> 01:22:55.837
faith-based abolitionists, Anglican

01:22:55.920 --> 01:23:00.957
church and Quakers who didn't
like this thing called slavery.

01:23:01.040 --> 01:23:02.397
And there was another group of them in

01:23:02.480 --> 01:23:05.357
America, Quakers especially, didn't like

01:23:05.440 --> 01:23:08.797
this thing called slavery. And the

01:23:08.880 --> 01:23:10.877
grandfather of the abolition of slavery

01:23:10.960 --> 01:23:13.757
is a man named Granville Sharp. Most

01:23:13.840 --> 01:23:17.277
people don't know that name, but he was

01:23:17.360 --> 01:23:19.437
the first person

01:23:19.520 --> 01:23:21.917
who was white-skinned to devote his life

01:23:22.000 --> 01:23:25.037
to the abolition of slavery.

01:23:25.120 --> 01:23:29.277
And he saw this letter and a former
slave who happened to be living in

01:23:29.360 --> 01:23:31.357
London

01:23:31.440 --> 01:23:33.677
brought this letter to him. All right.

01:23:33.760 --> 01:23:38.077
His name was Olad Ecuano.
That's Ecuano and that's Granville

01:23:38.160 --> 01:23:40.637
Sharp. Nicely done, Jamie.

01:23:40.720 --> 01:23:43.037
Uh Ecuano was a former slave. He had

01:23:43.120 --> 01:23:47.757
been a slave in Virginia, but smart,
industrious, he bought his freedom and

01:23:47.840 --> 01:23:49.757
he heard about Granville Sharp.

01:23:49.840 --> 01:23:53.997
Granville Sharp had devoted his life
to ab abolishing slavery. Ecuano made his

01:23:54.080 --> 01:23:57.837
way to London. Said, "I'm going to I'm
going to do what I can to help." So

01:23:57.920 --> 01:24:01.677
Granville Sharp sees this letter and he
says, "Man, I" He had been spending the

01:24:01.760 --> 01:24:05.757
last two decades of his life trying
to build a legal argument against slavery.

01:24:05.840 --> 01:24:08.797
He taught himself the law. He didn't
finish school. Taught himself the law.

01:24:08.880 --> 01:24:12.157
Taught himself Latin, Greek, Hebrew.
He wrote pamphlets. We were talking about

01:24:12.240 --> 01:24:16.397
pamphlets, right? [clears throat]
Pamphlets was the thing of the day. You

01:24:16.480 --> 01:24:19.837
had an idea. You wrote a pamphlet
and you you gave it to people. Granville

01:24:19.920 --> 01:24:24.237
Sharp wrote a pamphlet that he shared
with his friend Benjamin Franklin. He

01:24:24.320 --> 01:24:28.157
said, maybe he called
him Benjamin, I don't

01:24:28.240 --> 01:24:31.917
know, maybe they had nicknames,
whatever. He said, "Benjamin,

01:24:32.000 --> 01:24:33.997
I have a pamphlet I want you to read.

01:24:34.080 --> 01:24:36.557
And my argument is this." This was in

01:24:36.640 --> 01:24:39.037
the 1760s.

01:24:39.120 --> 01:24:41.997
Uh, you guys over there should not be

01:24:42.080 --> 01:24:46.477
taxed without having
a representative in Parliament.

01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:48.317
And thus was born the slogan, no

01:24:48.400 --> 01:24:51.517
taxation without representation,

01:24:51.600 --> 01:24:55.997
which became the rallying cry of the
American Revolutionary War. Yeah. Yeah,

01:24:56.080 --> 01:24:59.037
that's right. Why are we paying all
these taxes to some king and we don't

01:24:59.120 --> 01:25:03.197
even have a say in the matter? So,
Granville Sharp was this Renaissance

01:25:03.280 --> 01:25:05.357
man, self-taught

01:25:05.440 --> 01:25:09.677
uh man of deep faith who could not

01:25:09.760 --> 01:25:14.237
stomach the idea that a Christian nation
was involved in slavery. And he saw this

01:25:14.320 --> 01:25:18.717
anonymous letter and he said, "This
is my case. This is the one. This is the

01:25:18.800 --> 01:25:23.517
one that's going to blow this whole thing
open." He went back to the underwriters

01:25:23.600 --> 01:25:26.637
and he said, "File a motion for a
retrial and now you make all these

01:25:26.720 --> 01:25:28.877
arguments." And I have the trial

01:25:28.960 --> 01:25:33.997
transcript because Granville
Sharp took hired someone to

01:25:34.080 --> 01:25:35.757
transcribe the whole hearing in

01:25:35.840 --> 01:25:37.597
shorthand. So there's a record. That's

01:25:37.680 --> 01:25:41.357
why we know what happened.

01:25:41.440 --> 01:25:43.517
And it's all going along kind of the

01:25:43.600 --> 01:25:47.277
same way except this time they're making

01:25:47.360 --> 01:25:51.997
different arguments. The barristers are

01:25:52.080 --> 01:25:55.437
talking about for the first time in the

01:25:55.520 --> 01:25:57.677
history of the west and in a court of

01:25:57.760 --> 01:26:01.277
law, human rights.

01:26:01.360 --> 01:26:04.317
Those black people had the same right to

01:26:04.400 --> 01:26:08.077
water as the white captain did. And this

01:26:08.160 --> 01:26:10.477
is a revolutionary idea. They have the

01:26:10.560 --> 01:26:14.237
same right to life as the crew the crew

01:26:14.320 --> 01:26:16.877
of the ship did.

01:26:16.960 --> 01:26:19.517
And they're trying to persuade

01:26:19.600 --> 01:26:22.237
again Justice Mansfield and two more

01:26:22.320 --> 01:26:26.877
justices this time of this
notion of universal human

01:26:26.960 --> 01:26:29.197
rights.

01:26:29.280 --> 01:26:32.077
And in the midst of all this,

01:26:32.160 --> 01:26:35.117
the only witness again is Stubs.

01:26:35.200 --> 01:26:36.877
You saw that movie A Few Good Men.

01:26:36.960 --> 01:26:39.757
>> Mhm. >> Yeah.
So there's that moment, right,

01:26:39.840 --> 01:26:42.077
when Tom Cruz has Jack Nicholson on the

01:26:42.160 --> 01:26:47.197
stand. He just has to get him to admit
he ordered the code red and he's quaking

01:26:47.280 --> 01:26:50.397
in his boots because Nicholson's,
you know, if he gets it wrong, that's it.

01:26:50.480 --> 01:26:54.877
Court marshall, you're done. You know,
if you accuse a whatever 10star general

01:26:54.960 --> 01:26:58.797
ordering the code red and he's just, do
I push? Do I push? And he gets Nicholson

01:26:58.880 --> 01:27:02.157
going. He gets him moving. He gets him
agitated. And then of course he says,

01:27:02.240 --> 01:27:03.517
did you order the code red? And Nichol

01:27:03.600 --> 01:27:07.517
says, you're goddamn right I did.

01:27:07.600 --> 01:27:09.677
That that changes everything, right? You

01:27:09.760 --> 01:27:12.317
did. Oh, okay. All right. So there's a

01:27:12.400 --> 01:27:15.277
moment like that in this trial.

01:27:15.360 --> 01:27:19.277
Stubs is the only witness. All he has
to do is say, "We ran out of water."

01:27:19.360 --> 01:27:21.277
Absolutely necessary to throw the

01:27:21.360 --> 01:27:24.397
Africans. Chief Justice Mansfield

01:27:24.480 --> 01:27:27.037
uttered words that later went on in

01:27:27.120 --> 01:27:31.437
infamy. The case of the slaves
is the same as if horses had been thrown

01:27:31.520 --> 01:27:35.597
overboard. That was his summary of the
first trial. Yeah, if you throw over

01:27:35.680 --> 01:27:39.037
horses, no one's going to talk about
murder. It's property. Slaves, same

01:27:39.120 --> 01:27:42.237
thing. He just has to say property

01:27:42.320 --> 01:27:44.797
thrown over because we we ran out of

01:27:44.880 --> 01:27:47.117
water. The barristister's got stubs on

01:27:47.200 --> 01:27:49.677
the stand. He's a fool. He's a dullard.

01:27:49.760 --> 01:27:53.757
He gets his mouth moving faster than his
brain is processing. And he gets stubs

01:27:53.840 --> 01:27:55.357
to admit that in the middle of throwing

01:27:55.440 --> 01:28:00.797
over Africans because they
were out of water, it rained.

01:28:00.880 --> 01:28:01.997
What do you mean it rained? Yeah, it

01:28:02.080 --> 01:28:05.597
rained. So, you did have water.

01:28:05.680 --> 01:28:08.157
The whole thing is revealed to be this

01:28:08.240 --> 01:28:12.157
bankrupt moral fraud, the slave trade.

01:28:12.240 --> 01:28:16.637
And now the world knows that not
only what's happening on these

01:28:16.720 --> 01:28:20.797
ships, things we talk about with these
images and the truth that was revealed,

01:28:20.880 --> 01:28:22.317
but the fact that the whole thing is

01:28:22.400 --> 01:28:24.637
this big lie, this greed mongering,

01:28:24.720 --> 01:28:30.077
murderous lie for profit, and the public
found out about it. And this is what

01:28:30.160 --> 01:28:35.117
gives me hope, Joe. And we talk about
the same things happening still today.

01:28:35.200 --> 01:28:37.037
This activated the first movement to

01:28:37.120 --> 01:28:39.677
abolish slavery. It was born right after

01:28:39.760 --> 01:28:43.117
this this moment where a handful of

01:28:43.200 --> 01:28:45.757
people in the Anglican church got

01:28:45.840 --> 01:28:48.237
together. There were 12 of them and they

01:28:48.320 --> 01:28:51.037
met in a printing shop in 1787 and they

01:28:51.120 --> 01:28:55.437
said we have to abolish slavery. It is a

01:28:55.520 --> 01:28:58.157
stain on human conscience. It's a stain

01:28:58.240 --> 01:29:00.797
on the British name. It is a stain

01:29:00.880 --> 01:29:05.197
against Christianity. we have to abolish
this horrific institution. And then they

01:29:05.280 --> 01:29:07.277
devoted their lives to that task which

01:29:07.360 --> 01:29:10.157
was a monumental and herculean task. But

01:29:10.240 --> 01:29:12.957
they succeeded using viral images,

01:29:13.040 --> 01:29:17.757
authentic testimony, investigative
journalism, consumer boycots, kind of

01:29:17.840 --> 01:29:21.357
the tools that we use today for social
justice were pioneered in this first

01:29:21.440 --> 01:29:23.357
movement. And ultimately they did

01:29:23.440 --> 01:29:27.037
succeed on paper. Granted and conceded

01:29:27.120 --> 01:29:30.157
that it was just on paper. But

01:29:30.240 --> 01:29:35.037
years later, even Frederick Douglas
said, "We commemorate every year the

01:29:35.120 --> 01:29:36.637
abolition of slavery in the British

01:29:36.720 --> 01:29:39.997
Empire, August 1, 1838, because that

01:29:40.080 --> 01:29:43.997
showed the world it was possible.

01:29:44.080 --> 01:29:48.397
And it was only a matter of time before
we did it here. It required a civil war,

01:29:48.480 --> 01:29:50.957
but it was achieved." And and that was

01:29:51.040 --> 01:29:55.757
the moment. And you trace it back
to that anonymous letter to these little

01:29:55.840 --> 01:29:59.517
acts of conscience to this handful
of men who got together in a printing shop

01:29:59.600 --> 01:30:01.997
and said our this is our life's focus

01:30:02.080 --> 01:30:06.957
now including Granville Sharp. This is
our life's focus now to rid the world of

01:30:07.040 --> 01:30:08.637
this moral stain. So now people are

01:30:08.720 --> 01:30:10.477
going to emerge as they learn about the

01:30:10.560 --> 01:30:14.717
Congo [__] And I've seen it happening.

01:30:14.800 --> 01:30:17.277
people of conscience

01:30:17.360 --> 01:30:21.997
forming and trying to find a way to push
back and bring some justice to the

01:30:22.080 --> 01:30:25.197
people in the Congo. Just as this
handful of people built an entire

01:30:25.280 --> 01:30:27.037
movement at a time when slavery was

01:30:27.120 --> 01:30:30.237
normal, legal, accepted, most members of

01:30:30.320 --> 01:30:32.397
parliament had investments in the slave

01:30:32.480 --> 01:30:35.917
trade uh and profited from the sugar

01:30:36.000 --> 01:30:39.277
sugar economy. Um uh but they succeeded.

01:30:39.360 --> 01:30:41.037
They triumphed. They persevered through

01:30:41.120 --> 01:30:43.757
enormous obstacles and we have to do the

01:30:43.840 --> 01:30:48.477
same today and it will require acts
of conscience. And by the way, the Zorg

01:30:48.560 --> 01:30:50.717
I've figured out who wrote that letter.

01:30:50.800 --> 01:30:53.197
240 years no one had known who was this

01:30:53.280 --> 01:30:56.317
person whose conscience bent history

01:30:56.400 --> 01:30:58.877
towards goodness. And I managed to

01:30:58.960 --> 01:31:02.237
figure out who it was. And um he's an

01:31:02.320 --> 01:31:05.277
abolitionist named James Ramsay,

01:31:05.360 --> 01:31:07.837
a man of deep faith. I keep coming back

01:31:07.920 --> 01:31:11.277
to that right this word faith and it's

01:31:11.360 --> 01:31:15.997
important because I do think that

01:31:16.080 --> 01:31:20.797
we are a species generally of good and I

01:31:20.880 --> 01:31:23.997
think we all have a divine nature in us

01:31:24.080 --> 01:31:28.317
and yeah there's evil in the world
there's greed there's violence there's

01:31:28.400 --> 01:31:30.797
horror there's oppression there's all of

01:31:30.880 --> 01:31:34.797
that but the forces of good and the

01:31:34.880 --> 01:31:36.797
spark of goodness within us and The

01:31:36.880 --> 01:31:39.437
faith we have in higher power invariably

01:31:39.520 --> 01:31:42.877
emerges and does succeed

01:31:42.960 --> 01:31:45.917
even if it's just for a moment.

01:31:46.000 --> 01:31:48.957
And and and we we need those moral

01:31:49.040 --> 01:31:51.677
leaders today to pull us forward just as

01:31:51.760 --> 01:31:53.917
these handful of people in the past

01:31:54.000 --> 01:31:59.037
dragged humanity forward with the power
of their moral force. And we're looking

01:31:59.120 --> 01:32:00.477
for those leaders today because the

01:32:00.560 --> 01:32:03.197
world is in so much turmoil. But we're

01:32:03.280 --> 01:32:06.877
incredibly malleable and influenced,

01:32:06.960 --> 01:32:11.357
easily influenced. And we could be
influenced in a great direction or we

01:32:11.440 --> 01:32:15.597
could be influenced in a negative
direction. And this to me, regardless of

01:32:15.680 --> 01:32:19.597
what you actually believe, this to me
is the great benefit of religion and

01:32:19.680 --> 01:32:24.077
particularly in Christianity. Like if
you meet people that are like really by

01:32:24.160 --> 01:32:26.797
the book Christians are some of the
nicest people you ever want to meet in

01:32:26.880 --> 01:32:30.637
your in your life. And they they get
a lot of happiness out of that. And this

01:32:30.720 --> 01:32:33.757
is one of the things that a lot
of people are lacking in this world is

01:32:33.840 --> 01:32:37.917
happiness. And without a moral framework
and an ethical framework, I'm not saying

01:32:38.000 --> 01:32:41.197
that you can't be an atheist to be
an amazing person. I know a lot of amazing

01:32:41.280 --> 01:32:45.837
people who are atheists. They're just
kind, you know, thoughtful, considerate

01:32:45.920 --> 01:32:49.597
people who came from good families
and have good friends and they don't they

01:32:49.680 --> 01:32:51.597
don't need religion to be a good person.

01:32:51.680 --> 01:32:54.237
But there is a real value in providing a

01:32:54.320 --> 01:32:56.317
framework. There's a real value in

01:32:56.400 --> 01:33:00.077
providing um an ideology that supports

01:33:00.160 --> 01:33:02.717
being positive in your community, being

01:33:02.800 --> 01:33:05.037
a a good person, ethical person, being

01:33:05.120 --> 01:33:09.837
someone who forgives. Forgiveness
is very important part of Christianity. Um

01:33:09.920 --> 01:33:12.797
redemption is a very important part
of Christianity. This idea that we evolve

01:33:12.880 --> 01:33:15.837
and grow together. And in the in the

01:33:15.920 --> 01:33:18.797
absence of that moral framework, you can

01:33:18.880 --> 01:33:22.877
get people whose their ideology

01:33:22.960 --> 01:33:25.437
looks at other human beings as property.

01:33:25.520 --> 01:33:29.837
Their ideology looks at other human
beings as not the same as them. You

01:33:29.920 --> 01:33:32.637
know, whether we're talking about China
and the treatment of the weaguers or

01:33:32.720 --> 01:33:36.637
whether we're talking about the African
slave trade or the Congo right now, it's

01:33:36.720 --> 01:33:38.637
all kind of the same thing.

01:33:38.720 --> 01:33:43.197
>> I I could I totally agree.
Um I think uh

01:33:43.280 --> 01:33:47.917
the Christian faith has been a force
for enormous good at crucial points in

01:33:48.000 --> 01:33:49.757
history and the abolition of slavery is

01:33:49.840 --> 01:33:53.117
one of them. Um uh without question

01:33:53.200 --> 01:33:57.517
there's a ethic of compassion, of

01:33:57.600 --> 01:34:00.717
empathy, uh be a good neighbor, be a

01:34:00.800 --> 01:34:03.517
good brother and sister. Um we're all

01:34:03.600 --> 01:34:06.317
God's children. And you see that

01:34:06.400 --> 01:34:10.637
language in the driving that's
driving the abolitionists

01:34:10.720 --> 01:34:12.957
uh in these movements to abolish slavery.

01:34:13.040 --> 01:34:16.957
>> And this is not to um this is not to

01:34:17.040 --> 01:34:19.757
forgive the horrors that people under

01:34:19.840 --> 01:34:24.957
the guise of Christianity have >>
performed. So the Inquisition or what

01:34:25.040 --> 01:34:27.277
>> that's right >> you could
the crusades you could go

01:34:27.360 --> 01:34:30.797
through a lot of horrific things that
were done in the name of Christianity

01:34:30.880 --> 01:34:32.957
but not really by in the spirit of it.

01:34:33.040 --> 01:34:36.237
And this is the problem with
human beings. We can make these

01:34:36.320 --> 01:34:40.237
rationalizations and make these
decisions and and we can decide that

01:34:40.320 --> 01:34:42.397
we're doing horrific things for the

01:34:42.480 --> 01:34:45.277
greater good. That is a also a problem

01:34:45.360 --> 01:34:49.437
with human rationalization that we could
be the most awful people as long as we

01:34:49.520 --> 01:34:52.957
think we're being awful doing it for good.

01:34:53.040 --> 01:34:57.357
It's just a a weird human tribal problem
that we've always had. So when you're

01:34:57.440 --> 01:35:00.957
looking at Christianity, think about
megaurch pastors driving around in

01:35:01.040 --> 01:35:05.677
Rolls-Royces and flying private jets
and ripping off these dull-minded people.

01:35:05.760 --> 01:35:08.957
But that's not that's >> that's
not the that's not the spirit of

01:35:09.040 --> 01:35:13.677
the faith, you know.
That's humans. That's greed. And

01:35:13.760 --> 01:35:16.637
>> it's humans. They're in the
weird ability to justify things.

01:35:16.720 --> 01:35:21.037
>> That's right. And in pursuit
of self-interest and self-gratification,

01:35:21.120 --> 01:35:24.717
and that will always be a part of the
human condition. And there are those

01:35:24.800 --> 01:35:27.117
among us, but there are greater angels.

01:35:27.200 --> 01:35:29.517
>> Yeah. >> You know,
the people who endure who

01:35:29.600 --> 01:35:32.317
endured those slaveships with grace, who

01:35:32.400 --> 01:35:34.637
endure the minds in the Congo with

01:35:34.720 --> 01:35:37.437
grace, they are so much stronger and

01:35:37.520 --> 01:35:40.877
have so much more human worth than those

01:35:40.960 --> 01:35:45.037
who oppress and who are greedy
and self-interested. And it's it is

01:35:45.120 --> 01:35:49.117
>> what's the worst example
of human beings imaginable?

01:35:49.200 --> 01:35:52.877
To the point where you're throwing
women and children overboard for water.

01:35:52.960 --> 01:35:55.117
>> Yeah. including
a a mother and her baby.

01:35:55.200 --> 01:35:58.397
You know, it's it's it's heartbreaking.

01:35:58.480 --> 01:36:02.717
>> I mean, there's just horrific
stories of what Columbus did

01:36:02.800 --> 01:36:05.197
>> and what his
the the people on his boats

01:36:05.280 --> 01:36:09.757
did when they reached the Americas
or the Bahamas. The the horrific things

01:36:09.840 --> 01:36:12.637
they did to people when they
found that these people had gold.

01:36:12.720 --> 01:36:14.717
>> Yeah. >> And they
required that they bring back

01:36:14.800 --> 01:36:17.677
the their own weight and gold
or they chop their arms off.

01:36:17.760 --> 01:36:20.237
>> Chop their arms off.
You know, there was all kinds of

01:36:20.320 --> 01:36:23.677
>> dashing babies heads against rocks
in front of their mothers. They did

01:36:23.760 --> 01:36:28.397
horrific things. And this was all
documented by some religious scholar who

01:36:28.480 --> 01:36:31.917
was on board with them. A religious leader
who's on board with some some Christian.

01:36:32.000 --> 01:36:34.077
>> Yeah. Look, let's not let's be clear.

01:36:34.160 --> 01:36:36.477
Europeans messed up a lot of the world.

01:36:36.560 --> 01:36:40.957
>> Oh yeah. >> Okay.
I mean that the the the reason I

01:36:41.040 --> 01:36:44.237
went through a little bit of time
talking about the caravl and the deep

01:36:44.320 --> 01:36:47.517
sea fairing vessel is this is this was

01:36:47.600 --> 01:36:50.717
this is what took the Europeans

01:36:50.800 --> 01:36:53.837
all across the global south and by and

01:36:53.920 --> 01:36:58.637
large that was a miserable
experience for the people they met.

01:36:58.720 --> 01:37:02.317
>> Yeah. Always >> that was >>
even if it was just diseases

01:37:02.400 --> 01:37:06.797
>> it whether Yeah.
disease and then of course violence

01:37:06.880 --> 01:37:09.997
uh enslavement, oppression,
colonization, >> all the [snorts] above.

01:37:10.080 --> 01:37:11.277
>> You know, all all of the above. There

01:37:11.360 --> 01:37:14.637
was a malice um and a greed and a sense

01:37:14.720 --> 01:37:19.917
of superiority that was inherent to that
entire episode of history. And I often

01:37:20.000 --> 01:37:22.157
look back and think, man,
if they had just stayed home,

01:37:22.240 --> 01:37:26.157
>> not only that, they were
essentially a scourge of plague.

01:37:26.240 --> 01:37:30.237
>> They they brought they >>
smallox 90% of Native Americans were

01:37:30.320 --> 01:37:33.677
wiped out because of that. >> Yeah.
And we we think that has to do

01:37:33.760 --> 01:37:35.517
with what happened to the Mayans.

01:37:35.600 --> 01:37:36.797
>> We think that has to do with what

01:37:36.880 --> 01:37:39.917
happened in uh Brazil and the Congo when

01:37:40.000 --> 01:37:44.637
they find these what used to be enormous
populations and these grids when they're

01:37:44.720 --> 01:37:47.837
doing the LAR scans and they're saying,
"Oh, this used to be like cities."

01:37:47.920 --> 01:37:49.997
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and now we're

01:37:50.080 --> 01:37:53.437
highly populated and then just suddenly

01:37:53.520 --> 01:37:58.397
very rapidly depopulated. And it wasn't
all just violence. You're right. It was

01:37:58.480 --> 01:38:01.597
disease and >> disease.
So everything they did was bad.

01:38:01.680 --> 01:38:04.397
The violence was bad
and everything they did was bad.

01:38:04.480 --> 01:38:08.637
>> It's such a crazy story that cuz
it's hard to imagine. You know, I used to

01:38:08.720 --> 01:38:13.037
have this joke in my act about our country
is 300 years old. People live to

01:38:13.120 --> 01:38:14.797
be 100. I go, that's three people.

01:38:14.880 --> 01:38:17.197
That's what's nuts.
It's like three people ago.

01:38:17.280 --> 01:38:19.357
>> A young country.
>> Yeah. Or really country.

01:38:19.440 --> 01:38:20.717
>> Two and a half. Two and a half people

01:38:20.800 --> 01:38:24.157
ago, we just got here. which is just

01:38:24.240 --> 01:38:27.357
nuts to even think about how quickly the

01:38:27.440 --> 01:38:31.437
human race progresses and how
devastating the introduction of new

01:38:31.520 --> 01:38:35.917
people especially with like diseases
>> when they find the people that were

01:38:36.000 --> 01:38:38.877
here. >> Well, we we
imagine this with, you know,

01:38:38.960 --> 01:38:42.957
the arrival of aliens like this is first
contact the story like what what would

01:38:43.040 --> 01:38:45.997
happen? >> Sure. >> When aliens
show up, are they going to

01:38:46.080 --> 01:38:48.717
blow everything up, right?
>> Are they going to enslave us? And

01:38:48.800 --> 01:38:51.757
>> are they going to be like the Quakers
or are they going to be like the Chinese?

01:38:51.840 --> 01:38:54.397
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well said. >> Or the Dutch.

01:38:54.480 --> 01:38:58.957
>> Yeah, the Dutch. >> You know,
>> yeah, it's it's you know, the question

01:38:59.040 --> 01:39:00.717
though now is there's a there's a lot of

01:39:00.800 --> 01:39:04.237
conversation about reparation.

01:39:04.320 --> 01:39:06.957
>> Do European countries

01:39:07.040 --> 01:39:11.437
need to write a check for what they did?

01:39:11.520 --> 01:39:14.317
And it's a complicated question. You

01:39:14.400 --> 01:39:16.477
know, Jamaica just went to England and

01:39:16.560 --> 01:39:21.677
said, "Please, you know, you you took

01:39:21.760 --> 01:39:24.317
millions of Africans, brought them here,

01:39:24.400 --> 01:39:26.797
enslaved them, and made yourself from

01:39:26.880 --> 01:39:30.557
this muddy medieval backasswords

01:39:30.640 --> 01:39:35.277
island to an economic superpower

01:39:35.360 --> 01:39:38.397
with centuries of wealth on the back of

01:39:38.480 --> 01:39:43.517
largely sugar, slavery, and so on. So um

01:39:43.600 --> 01:39:45.917
those people worked for free for

01:39:46.000 --> 01:39:49.837
centuries and um you need to write a

01:39:49.920 --> 01:39:52.237
check.

01:39:52.320 --> 01:39:54.077
Now that's a fascinating question, isn't

01:39:54.160 --> 01:39:58.477
it? So on the one hand, you know, if if

01:39:58.560 --> 01:40:03.917
if your father worked at a a
manufacturing plant and let's say he

01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:05.437
worked for 30 years and they never paid

01:40:05.520 --> 01:40:08.077
him, we wouldn't think about, oh yeah,

01:40:08.160 --> 01:40:12.717
you know, your dad is owed money because
he worked. He should be paid for that

01:40:12.800 --> 01:40:17.757
work. The company made their money
off his labor. And so all right,

01:40:17.840 --> 01:40:21.277
uh are the descendants
of those slaves owed

01:40:21.360 --> 01:40:24.477
some money? And

01:40:24.560 --> 01:40:28.397
Jamaica went to England
just recently and said

01:40:28.480 --> 01:40:32.717
10 billion pounds like just something.
I mean you when you start to calculate

01:40:32.800 --> 01:40:34.637
unpaid labor for three centuries plus

01:40:34.720 --> 01:40:36.797
interest it's trillions and trillions

01:40:36.880 --> 01:40:41.117
and it's an in you know impossible sum.

01:40:41.200 --> 01:40:43.597
Uh but something is owed and then you

01:40:43.680 --> 01:40:46.317
say well now wait a minute um if you're

01:40:46.400 --> 01:40:51.277
the British government I wasn't
a part of that. I I I didn't I

01:40:51.360 --> 01:40:54.557
didn't participate in this, so why am
I writing a check? And then the Jamaican

01:40:54.640 --> 01:40:57.837
says, "Yeah, but everything you have
today is built on that." And so there's

01:40:57.920 --> 01:40:59.437
this conversation going back and forth,

01:40:59.520 --> 01:41:04.557
Joe, about is a check due? Um or is it

01:41:04.640 --> 01:41:07.117
just and fair to to ask for that

01:41:07.200 --> 01:41:12.477
reparation be paid for this period
in slavery? just as the Bel the Congalles

01:41:12.560 --> 01:41:15.837
are talking to the Belgians. You know,
you Liupole came down here and look what

01:41:15.920 --> 01:41:18.397
he did to us and then colonized us and

01:41:18.480 --> 01:41:23.197
uh a a a check needs to be written of uh

01:41:23.280 --> 01:41:26.637
as well as an apology and uh it's a it's

01:41:26.720 --> 01:41:28.957
a difficult it's a difficult question.

01:41:29.040 --> 01:41:32.797
>> Who would um receive the check and how
would it be distributed? That would be

01:41:32.880 --> 01:41:35.037
the real question. >> That's
part of the complexity. Like

01:41:35.120 --> 01:41:38.717
>> the fear would be that corruption would
get involved and someone would siphon

01:41:38.800 --> 01:41:40.637
off the money. >> Yeah.
You say, "Wait, you're going to

01:41:40.720 --> 01:41:44.317
tell me I need to write a check to the
government of the Congo?" All right,

01:41:44.400 --> 01:41:46.077
that's not getting to anybody who

01:41:46.160 --> 01:41:49.197
actually could use it or I just give a

01:41:49.280 --> 01:41:53.917
check to Jamaica and trust that they
>> All right, but does that mean that in

01:41:54.000 --> 01:41:57.837
principle something's not owed? You know,
>> but even if you distribute distributed

01:41:57.920 --> 01:42:02.237
to the individual people, you you'd have
to make sure that no one's stealing it

01:42:02.320 --> 01:42:06.397
from anybody else. And then you would
have to figure out how to distribute it.

01:42:06.480 --> 01:42:08.797
And

01:42:08.880 --> 01:42:12.557
I mean it does at at the very least if a

01:42:12.640 --> 01:42:15.997
country's or or a corporation's entire

01:42:16.080 --> 01:42:19.277
start like the their beginning was based

01:42:19.360 --> 01:42:23.837
on slavery getting sugar. That's kind of

01:42:23.920 --> 01:42:27.437
insane that somehow or another that
profit led to people that are still

01:42:27.520 --> 01:42:30.397
wealthy today. >> Well, you know,
>> they can trace that, right?

01:42:30.480 --> 01:42:31.757
>> Yeah, they can trace that.
You know what

01:42:31.840 --> 01:42:36.157
else they've done? So when the British
abolished slavery, okay, they wrote a

01:42:36.240 --> 01:42:40.477
check to the slave owners. >> Oh my god.

01:42:40.560 --> 01:42:42.797
>> This was part of the deal
to get the bill through part.

01:42:42.880 --> 01:42:44.717
>> How much did they have to give them?

01:42:44.800 --> 01:42:48.957
>> Cuz it was they were the argument
was, well, you're taking my property,

01:42:49.040 --> 01:42:51.197
>> so you need to pay
me for that property.

01:42:51.280 --> 01:42:53.197
Now, no one was talking about, well, do

01:42:53.280 --> 01:42:55.357
we pay anything to the Africans who

01:42:55.440 --> 01:42:58.637
worked for free, the slave owners who

01:42:58.720 --> 01:43:00.877
are also all members of parliament.

01:43:00.960 --> 01:43:03.277
you're taking my property. So, you're

01:43:03.360 --> 01:43:05.597
going to find this fascinating.

01:43:05.680 --> 01:43:09.357
They allocated a sum of 20 million

01:43:09.440 --> 01:43:13.197
pounds back in 1833
when the law was passed.

01:43:13.280 --> 01:43:14.317
>> What is that equivalent to?

01:43:14.400 --> 01:43:17.437
>> Equivalent at the time to 40% of the

01:43:17.520 --> 01:43:21.757
entire national budget. Whoa.

01:43:21.840 --> 01:43:25.437
>> And they distributed this money.
You got a slave certifi compensation

01:43:25.520 --> 01:43:27.197
certificate. And based on the number of

01:43:27.280 --> 01:43:30.077
slaves you had times the amount that was

01:43:30.160 --> 01:43:33.437
each was valued, you got that check then

01:43:33.520 --> 01:43:37.757
and there. So number one, uh it was a

01:43:37.840 --> 01:43:40.797
massive sum of money, 40% of the

01:43:40.880 --> 01:43:43.517
national budget at the time.

01:43:43.600 --> 01:43:50.600
But the fascinating piece of this
was the government took out a loan

01:43:50.960 --> 01:43:53.357
for that quantum

01:43:53.440 --> 01:43:56.477
and the British taxpayer was repaying

01:43:56.560 --> 01:44:00.477
that loan up until 2015.

01:44:00.560 --> 01:44:05.037
>> Holy [__] >> So

01:44:05.120 --> 01:44:09.997
imagine you're you they
didn't even know. Okay.

01:44:10.080 --> 01:44:11.757
The average British taxpayer had no

01:44:11.840 --> 01:44:15.597
idea. The average British taxpayer,

01:44:15.680 --> 01:44:18.797
British citizen, was repaying the loan

01:44:18.880 --> 01:44:22.077
taken out in 1833

01:44:22.160 --> 01:44:24.797
by the government

01:44:24.880 --> 01:44:28.557
to pay slave owners for the loss of

01:44:28.640 --> 01:44:32.557
their slave property. So for the next

01:44:32.640 --> 01:44:34.637
180 years

01:44:34.720 --> 01:44:37.437
and now

01:44:37.520 --> 01:44:41.117
let's say you're a taxpayer in 2010,

01:44:41.200 --> 01:44:43.277
you had nothing to do with what was

01:44:43.360 --> 01:44:47.677
happening in 1800s or the 1700s, but

01:44:47.760 --> 01:44:52.557
you've been paying the bill.
You've been paying back now these

01:44:52.640 --> 01:44:56.157
families, some of them prominent,
the Gladstones, for instance. The longest

01:44:56.240 --> 01:44:59.437
serving ever prime minister in British
history was a Gladstone. And he got one

01:44:59.520 --> 01:45:02.477
of the biggest checks. >> How much?

01:45:02.560 --> 01:45:05.837
>> It was 104 105,000 pounds back in the

01:45:05.920 --> 01:45:10.477
1830s. I mean, we're talking
tens of millions equivalent today.

01:45:10.560 --> 01:45:13.597
>> So, they got super
wealthy all in one check

01:45:13.680 --> 01:45:17.357
>> on top of the wealth they
had been making, >> right,

01:45:17.440 --> 01:45:21.677
>> through slave labor and selling sugar
and rum and molasses and all that. They

01:45:21.760 --> 01:45:26.397
got double wealthy with one
big fat check at the end of the

01:45:26.480 --> 01:45:28.877
at the end of this.
Now the average >> what year was this?

01:45:28.960 --> 01:45:32.957
>> Uh the bill was passed in 1833 and uh

01:45:33.040 --> 01:45:38.157
slaves uh the the requirements were all
slaves in the British Empire are free

01:45:38.240 --> 01:45:42.157
after five years of unpaid
apprenticeship. So they could slave

01:45:42.240 --> 01:45:46.157
owners had a chance to transition
to paying their workers. You had to work

01:45:46.240 --> 01:45:49.117
five years as an unpaid apprentice.

01:45:49.200 --> 01:45:53.517
Um, you will get your check if you're
a slave owner for your property. Here's

01:45:53.600 --> 01:45:55.197
your certificate.
Just tally up your slave.

01:45:55.280 --> 01:45:57.517
>> So, if you're a slave,
you're still a slave

01:45:57.600 --> 01:45:58.957
>> for five more years. For five more

01:45:59.040 --> 01:46:03.437
years. Uh, and the territories of the

01:46:03.520 --> 01:46:06.957
East India Trading Company were excluded.

01:46:07.040 --> 01:46:10.157
>> Oh, that's a fascinating story.
The East

01:46:10.240 --> 01:46:12.477
India Trading That's another
four hours on its own.

01:46:12.560 --> 01:46:16.717
>> That we'll we'll we'll come to that.
But I would love to. The brief is So, this

01:46:16.800 --> 01:46:20.957
is 1830s. >> Yeah.
and the East India Trading Company

01:46:21.040 --> 01:46:23.437
controls the subcontinent.

01:46:23.520 --> 01:46:25.757
And from the 1830s

01:46:25.840 --> 01:46:28.877
until independence in 1947, there's a

01:46:28.960 --> 01:46:33.837
reason why Jamaica has a ton of Indians

01:46:33.920 --> 01:46:38.077
and Guyana and Mauritius and Malaysia

01:46:38.160 --> 01:46:42.557
and all these former sugar colonies
of the British. Like, all right, no more

01:46:42.640 --> 01:46:46.477
African slaves.
They excluded the East India Trading

01:46:46.560 --> 01:46:50.477
Company territory and started
shipping out the Indians

01:46:50.560 --> 01:46:54.877
to keep the system going. All the slave
owners got their big fat checks which

01:46:54.960 --> 01:46:59.197
the British taxpayer only
paid off 10 years ago.

01:46:59.280 --> 01:47:03.517
So, it makes the question about
writing checks and so on a little more

01:47:03.600 --> 01:47:07.757
interesting. It's complicated and I
don't have a firm opinion on it, but

01:47:07.840 --> 01:47:09.277
there's enough there that has to be

01:47:09.360 --> 01:47:10.877
teased through. But the one that really

01:47:10.960 --> 01:47:14.957
gets me is when I heard uh in 2015 that

01:47:15.040 --> 01:47:18.077
they finally paid off the bill, the loan.

01:47:18.160 --> 01:47:21.880
>> That is so insane.

01:47:23.280 --> 01:47:27.357
It's so insane how much money they spent
to get these people to give up their

01:47:27.440 --> 01:47:29.837
slaves and then they still
had to work for 5 years.

01:47:29.920 --> 01:47:34.797
>> They had to work for 5 years and then
on August 1st, 1838, uh Frederick Douglas

01:47:34.880 --> 01:47:38.957
writes about this very beautifully
with the with the rising of the sun. I I

01:47:39.040 --> 01:47:41.997
can't quote his words exactly.
Uh they're in the zorg at the end. You

01:47:42.080 --> 01:47:43.357
know, with the blink of an eye and the

01:47:43.440 --> 01:47:47.837
rising of the sun on that day, freedom

01:47:47.920 --> 01:47:52.157
was won. Every African
person woke up free.

01:47:52.240 --> 01:47:53.677
>> And this is after the five years.

01:47:53.760 --> 01:47:56.957
>> This is after the five years, August 1,
1838. And Douglas was given a speech in

01:47:57.040 --> 01:48:00.157
Elmmyra, New York in 1880. He said, "We

01:48:00.240 --> 01:48:04.317
still commemorate that day because it

01:48:04.400 --> 01:48:08.637
taught us and showed us what's possible.

01:48:08.720 --> 01:48:12.877
Goodness is possible. Freedom
is possible." And yes, it was with the

01:48:12.960 --> 01:48:14.717
stroke of a pen from a monarch across

01:48:14.800 --> 01:48:18.237
the sea. Uh but uh we which is a system

01:48:18.320 --> 01:48:22.957
the the Americans overthrew. They didn't
want kings and monarchy, right? That's

01:48:23.040 --> 01:48:25.197
the we want democracy here. >> [snorts]

01:48:25.280 --> 01:48:28.317
>> um uh it showed us
what was possible and

01:48:28.400 --> 01:48:32.877
and and Douglas uh crossed the Atlantic

01:48:32.960 --> 01:48:36.877
after this this moment in history
and he met with the only surviving member

01:48:36.960 --> 01:48:40.397
remember I told you 12 guys met in a
printing shop in London and only one of

01:48:40.480 --> 01:48:42.557
them lived to see the day in 1838 his

01:48:42.640 --> 01:48:47.597
name was Thomas Clarkson he rode his
horse 35,000 miles up and down England

01:48:47.680 --> 01:48:49.437
gathering evidence to present to

01:48:49.520 --> 01:48:52.717
Parliament about against the slave trade

01:48:52.800 --> 01:48:56.477
and he was the only one left alive
and Douglas crossed the Atlantic and met

01:48:56.560 --> 01:48:59.517
with him and and said, "Please teach me

01:48:59.600 --> 01:49:03.997
everything you guys did, what you what
succeeded, what didn't, so so we can

01:49:04.080 --> 01:49:06.797
achieve freedom for the slaves
in America." And you know, the rest is

01:49:06.880 --> 01:49:09.757
history. Of course, >> you just
have to imagine if the whole

01:49:09.840 --> 01:49:13.997
trial with the Zorg didn't take place,
how much longer the slave trade would

01:49:14.080 --> 01:49:17.997
have gone on. >> Yeah. I mean,
slavery was going to get abolished,

01:49:18.080 --> 01:49:19.517
>> right? You know, how much longer?

01:49:19.600 --> 01:49:21.597
>> How much longer? >> Right.
If it wasn't for just a few

01:49:21.680 --> 01:49:26.237
individuals. And right researching this
book, Joe, I'll tell you, it felt like

01:49:26.320 --> 01:49:28.317
there were so many flukes of

01:49:28.400 --> 01:49:31.597
circumstance. It felt like there was a

01:49:31.680 --> 01:49:33.277
higher power that finally said, "All

01:49:33.360 --> 01:49:35.837
right, I've let you guys run a muck long

01:49:35.920 --> 01:49:39.437
enough. You are letting the devil within

01:49:39.520 --> 01:49:43.677
you rule. And I'm going to pull this lever
and push this button and make sure

01:49:43.760 --> 01:49:47.917
that the angels learn what's happening
because I believe in them and that they

01:49:48.000 --> 01:49:49.437
will triumph over you." And that and

01:49:49.520 --> 01:49:53.357
that's what happened. God,

01:49:53.440 --> 01:49:57.037
it's such a heavy story. >> Yeah.
Every time I come here now, I just,

01:49:57.120 --> 01:49:58.317
>> you know, this one's even heavier.

01:49:58.400 --> 01:50:01.517
>> I feel like I >> I don't know.
They're both pretty heavy, but Jesus,

01:50:01.600 --> 01:50:06.397
>> you said something a while ago about,
you know, today we have connection, you

01:50:06.480 --> 01:50:09.517
know, through social media and videos
and we can tell what's going on in the

01:50:09.600 --> 01:50:13.197
Congo because truth seekers go there
and they can snap a photo and a video and

01:50:13.280 --> 01:50:15.917
show it to us.
And that's a big difference today,

01:50:16.000 --> 01:50:18.077
>> right? Imagine in the 1700s.

01:50:18.160 --> 01:50:21.037
>> Oh, yeah. trying to gather evidence and

01:50:21.120 --> 01:50:23.437
and persuade people of of what the truth

01:50:23.520 --> 01:50:28.637
is. Uh and it it was this fascinating
battle of storytelling because the slave

01:50:28.720 --> 01:50:31.037
owners would say, "Now, what are you
talking about? They have plenty of room

01:50:31.120 --> 01:50:34.157
on the ship and they when they get on,
this is they actually said this. When

01:50:34.240 --> 01:50:37.437
they get on board, we give them cordials
and they play games of chance and

01:50:37.520 --> 01:50:41.917
they're very pleased and have
a very nice time of it." And then the

01:50:42.000 --> 01:50:45.677
abolitionist said, "Let me show
you the schematic of the brooks

01:50:45.760 --> 01:50:49.757
and show me the ample room on deck and
where the cordials are being served." So

01:50:49.840 --> 01:50:51.917
they're going back and forth about

01:50:52.000 --> 01:50:53.677
truth.

01:50:53.760 --> 01:50:59.197
And truth wins, Joe. It always wins.
And it may backslide and it may get

01:50:59.280 --> 01:51:03.597
suppressed and it may take time,
but truth wins. These two things can only

01:51:03.680 --> 01:51:06.157
remain hidden so long. The moon and the

01:51:06.240 --> 01:51:09.037
truth. [snorts]

01:51:09.120 --> 01:51:12.477
Okay? But the point I'm making here is

01:51:12.560 --> 01:51:15.357
they didn't have videos and pictures and

01:51:15.440 --> 01:51:19.277
social media, but with their faith, they

01:51:19.360 --> 01:51:21.837
extended their empathy to people they

01:51:21.920 --> 01:51:25.997
would never ever see or meet.

01:51:26.080 --> 01:51:31.277
None of those abolitionists
ever stepped foot in Africa.

01:51:31.360 --> 01:51:34.797
Only a couple had been to the Caribbean
islands, including James Ramsay, who

01:51:34.880 --> 01:51:39.277
wrote that anonymous letter. None
of them ever stepped foot in Africa, but

01:51:39.360 --> 01:51:43.037
they extended their hearts out to a
people they knew were being oppressed,

01:51:43.120 --> 01:51:47.917
but were fellow children of God,
and they fought for them.

01:51:48.000 --> 01:51:51.277
>> And it was very difficult to get
that information. Without that trial, who

01:51:51.360 --> 01:51:54.957
knows how long it would have taken.
This is what's really important about your

01:51:55.040 --> 01:51:57.997
work because it what you going to the

01:51:58.080 --> 01:52:03.197
Congo, getting those photographs, coming
back with that, writing Cobalt Red, and

01:52:03.280 --> 01:52:07.117
then coming on podcasts [clears throat]
and telling millions and millions of

01:52:07.200 --> 01:52:08.797
people the story that would have never

01:52:08.880 --> 01:52:11.677
had any idea. I knew vaguely that there

01:52:11.760 --> 01:52:14.957
was mines in the Congo that extracted

01:52:15.040 --> 01:52:17.037
rare earth minerals and that they needed

01:52:17.120 --> 01:52:19.837
them for cell phones and batteries, but

01:52:19.920 --> 01:52:22.637
I I'd had no idea the extent of it until

01:52:22.720 --> 01:52:27.357
you came on and described it.
>> Well, the millions is thanks to you. I

01:52:27.440 --> 01:52:29.597
mean, you know, I went there. Yes. Uh

01:52:29.680 --> 01:52:32.957
and I saw the human apocalypse

01:52:33.040 --> 01:52:38.157
and it is a human apocalypse,
Joe. It's an environmental

01:52:38.240 --> 01:52:39.677
apocalypse.

01:52:39.760 --> 01:52:45.197
Um, but you've you've played
an important role in spreading that truth.

01:52:45.280 --> 01:52:46.397
>> So, well, it's the least I can do.

01:52:46.480 --> 01:52:49.677
Everybody would do it if they're in my
position. You have to do it. It's And

01:52:49.760 --> 01:52:52.477
it's also uh to me it's um although

01:52:52.560 --> 01:52:54.957
horrific, utterly fascinating. It's

01:52:55.040 --> 01:52:57.357
fascinating that people the the way

01:52:57.440 --> 01:52:59.757
people can rationalize things like that.

01:52:59.840 --> 01:53:04.557
The way people can just the way certain
cultures treat other human beings, they

01:53:04.640 --> 01:53:06.397
just don't give a [__] about them at all.

01:53:06.480 --> 01:53:08.717
>> Yeah. >> At all.
They just want that. We have to

01:53:08.800 --> 01:53:12.557
do better. We have to be a better model
for the world. We meaning this country.

01:53:12.640 --> 01:53:14.077
This country has to be a better model.

01:53:14.160 --> 01:53:18.237
And it pains me that right now
we're not being a very good model.

01:53:18.320 --> 01:53:20.237
>> We're certainly not the best we can be.

01:53:20.320 --> 01:53:23.197
>> No, >> that's a fact.
Uh that's undeniable. No

01:53:23.280 --> 01:53:26.557
one no one says the way we exist is ideal.
The way we interact with the

01:53:26.640 --> 01:53:30.877
world is ideal. No one does. But then
again, also we're not dealing with ideal

01:53:30.960 --> 01:53:35.517
circumstances either and ideal people on,
you know, that are running other

01:53:35.600 --> 01:53:39.677
parts of the world as well. The whole
thing's chaos. That's what's so scary.

01:53:39.760 --> 01:53:43.437
The whole thing's chaos. And there's
nuclear weapons everywhere. And who

01:53:43.520 --> 01:53:48.397
knows who's going to be the first to say,
"Fuck this." And just push. Yeah.

01:53:48.480 --> 01:53:51.117
>> Yeah. >> I mean,
and again, like we always talk

01:53:51.200 --> 01:53:54.877
about Gaza. If you looked at Gaza, you

01:53:54.960 --> 01:53:59.677
you're seeing a prolonged campaign
of bombs, but isn't the ultimate result

01:53:59.760 --> 01:54:03.757
kind of very similar to someone dropping
a nuclear bomb? It's not I mean a small

01:54:03.840 --> 01:54:08.477
nuclear bomb like what they
did with Little Boy or Fat Man

01:54:08.560 --> 01:54:12.717
not much difference in the amount
of destruction. Something like 90% of Gaza

01:54:12.800 --> 01:54:15.357
is gone. >> Gone. Yeah.
I mean if you if you added

01:54:15.440 --> 01:54:17.997
up the explosive power of what's been

01:54:18.080 --> 01:54:23.037
dropped on Gaza now it
probably is akin to fat man.

01:54:23.120 --> 01:54:26.717
>> Well it looks like a hydrogen bomb just
detonated there. It just that's what it

01:54:26.800 --> 01:54:30.397
looks like. So everything's completely
flattened and and but it's happened in

01:54:30.480 --> 01:54:33.677
like this slow frog boiling type situation

01:54:33.760 --> 01:54:35.997
>> where the water you know the story.

01:54:36.080 --> 01:54:37.517
>> They turn the water up.
The frog doesn't

01:54:37.600 --> 01:54:41.997
realize it's being boiled. It slowly
just turns it up and it's like everyone

01:54:42.080 --> 01:54:45.677
is screaming and yelling about it
and yet it's still going on and it's going

01:54:45.760 --> 01:54:49.357
on slowly. Boom boom boom boom.
Not one big boom,

01:54:49.440 --> 01:54:53.117
>> right? >> And you know
most young people have had

01:54:53.200 --> 01:54:55.677
enough. Most young people are [__]

01:54:55.760 --> 01:55:00.157
absolutely horrified by it. It's the
people that can justify it somehow that

01:55:00.240 --> 01:55:03.757
are really scary. >> I think
that the average person in that

01:55:03.840 --> 01:55:05.997
part of the world, the average the

01:55:06.080 --> 01:55:12.317
average Palestinian, the average Jewish
person is is fed up too of conflict,

01:55:12.400 --> 01:55:14.957
>> of course, >> and war.
>> They all want the same thing.

01:55:15.040 --> 01:55:17.757
>> They just want peace,
safety for their kids,

01:55:17.840 --> 01:55:23.357
>> right? And they have these leaders
who have bloodlust >> on both sides.

01:55:23.440 --> 01:55:27.197
>> On both sides. >> Yeah.
And uh and justifiably so. If you

01:55:27.280 --> 01:55:30.077
think they've been killing each other
for so long, they've been going back and

01:55:30.160 --> 01:55:34.237
forth and killing each other. There's
like a cemented pattern of behavior

01:55:34.320 --> 01:55:37.437
that they have with each other. I mean,
we're, you know, people were talking

01:55:37.520 --> 01:55:40.557
about when I was in high school, peace
in the Middle East, like it was a joke,

01:55:40.640 --> 01:55:43.357
like that it would never
be achieved, you know.

01:55:43.440 --> 01:55:46.717
>> Here we are. >> And here we are.
It's more of the same.

01:55:46.800 --> 01:55:49.357
And even I think we just shipped a

01:55:49.440 --> 01:55:54.237
record number of bombs or we're going
to ship a rep record number of bombs over

01:55:54.320 --> 01:55:57.837
there. [snorts] [sighs]

01:55:57.920 --> 01:56:01.597
>> Violence begets violence. >> Well,
it's just that's one of the things

01:56:01.680 --> 01:56:05.117
that really disturbs me the most about
people is that if you asked the average

01:56:05.200 --> 01:56:09.437
person uh what are the odds that we will
have no war in your lifetime, they would

01:56:09.520 --> 01:56:12.237
say zero. >> Zero.
>> Most people say zero.

01:56:12.320 --> 01:56:16.157
>> But yet we know that humans are capable
of getting along. Like, so what what is

01:56:16.240 --> 01:56:19.917
it about large groups of people that don't
know each other that are convinced

01:56:20.000 --> 01:56:23.837
by small groups of people that they need
to attack other large groups of people

01:56:23.920 --> 01:56:25.837
that they don't know? It's it's [__]

01:56:25.920 --> 01:56:29.517
insane. And this is my one hope and I

01:56:29.600 --> 01:56:30.957
know a lot of people think this is very

01:56:31.040 --> 01:56:36.237
delusional but my one hope of this

01:56:36.320 --> 01:56:39.517
complete dominance of technology

01:56:39.600 --> 01:56:42.477
that one day we're going to get to a

01:56:42.560 --> 01:56:47.037
position where there will genuinely be a

01:56:47.120 --> 01:56:51.277
thing more intelligent than human
beings that don't allow this anymore.

01:56:51.360 --> 01:56:55.837
>> You know the real fear about AI is that
AI is going to eliminate people. This is

01:56:55.920 --> 01:56:58.637
like yeah >> famously a lot
of these CEOs have said

01:56:58.720 --> 01:57:02.557
there's a 10 or people working on tech
this tech have said there's a 10% chance

01:57:02.640 --> 01:57:04.397
that AI decides to eliminate the human

01:57:04.480 --> 01:57:07.597
race right but isn't there maybe also a

01:57:07.680 --> 01:57:10.397
possibility if it's done correctly that

01:57:10.480 --> 01:57:13.997
it stops war completely

01:57:14.080 --> 01:57:16.797
completely controls resources completely

01:57:16.880 --> 01:57:19.997
controls all military

01:57:20.080 --> 01:57:24.157
weaponry all systems
everything doesn't allow it

01:57:24.240 --> 01:57:27.357
anymore Because it's insane.
It's also insane if

01:57:27.440 --> 01:57:29.837
you really think about it that some

01:57:29.920 --> 01:57:32.237
people because they found a good spot of

01:57:32.320 --> 01:57:37.997
dirt can extract so much wealth out of
that dirt that they can control everyone

01:57:38.080 --> 01:57:41.757
else around them. >> Yeah.
>> And it's just the earth. Like the idea

01:57:41.840 --> 01:57:46.237
that you own the stuff that's in the
earth is really kind of crazy. You're a

01:57:46.320 --> 01:57:48.477
little [__] bug that's walking around

01:57:48.560 --> 01:57:51.117
on the surface on this dirt. But you've

01:57:51.200 --> 01:57:53.757
decided that all that water underneath

01:57:53.840 --> 01:57:58.157
there or all that gold or all whatever
the [__] it is, it's like like how about

01:57:58.240 --> 01:58:01.037
the people that go out into the ocean
and they stick a giant pipe into the

01:58:01.120 --> 01:58:02.397
ocean and they suck out all the oil.

01:58:02.480 --> 01:58:04.477
Like who [__] told you that's yours?

01:58:04.560 --> 01:58:08.557
How are you getting that? Like how how
are the other humans allowing you to go

01:58:08.640 --> 01:58:10.957
out into the ocean which nobody owns?

01:58:11.040 --> 01:58:14.637
Okay. And you're drilling into
the ground of the ocean and now you're

01:58:14.720 --> 01:58:17.277
getting rich from our stuff, the Earth

01:58:17.360 --> 01:58:22.237
stuff. It's It's really weird. It's re
I mean I get it's established. I get this

01:58:22.320 --> 01:58:25.517
is how we've done it. I get it's in the
stock market. I get it. I'm not saying I

01:58:25.600 --> 01:58:26.957
have a better solution. But I'm saying

01:58:27.040 --> 01:58:30.637
it is [__] crazy that we just stick

01:58:30.720 --> 01:58:34.957
pipes into the ground and suck the stuff
out. And when you suck the stuff out, if

01:58:35.040 --> 01:58:37.677
you suck enough of it out, you got
enough money to do whatever the [__] you

01:58:37.760 --> 01:58:38.077
want.

01:58:38.160 --> 01:58:43.117
>> Yeah. So your dream is AI AI AI runs

01:58:43.200 --> 01:58:45.837
things more equitably and efficiently.

01:58:45.920 --> 01:58:49.117
Well, if I want to get really delusional,
my dream is it's not even my

01:58:49.200 --> 01:58:53.117
dream. So, because it's not what I'm
hoping, but I think it is entirely

01:58:53.200 --> 01:58:55.917
possible that we create a digital life

01:58:56.000 --> 01:59:00.717
form that is far superior
in intelligence to us and doesn't have all

01:59:00.800 --> 01:59:04.237
of our moral failings, doesn't
have greed, doesn't have lust,

01:59:04.320 --> 01:59:08.317
>> doesn't have uh the desire to acquire
property, doesn't have the desire to

01:59:08.400 --> 01:59:10.797
control resources, but just looks at us

01:59:10.880 --> 01:59:13.837
in our territorial primate behavior, our

01:59:13.920 --> 01:59:15.917
psychotic territorial violent primate

01:59:16.000 --> 01:59:20.957
behavior, and says, "Let's just rein
that in kids. Let's just rein that in.

01:59:21.040 --> 01:59:23.517
No more of that. We're not going
to allow that anymore. We're not going to

01:59:23.600 --> 01:59:26.397
allow you to do that anymore.
>> Let's play nice.

01:59:26.480 --> 01:59:28.157
>> Yeah. And and you know, instead of just

01:59:28.240 --> 01:59:30.957
allowing cities to be polluted by break

01:59:31.040 --> 01:59:34.157
dust, why don't we take a corner every

01:59:34.240 --> 01:59:36.317
three or four blocks and put a gigantic

01:59:36.400 --> 01:59:41.917
filter on it and suck up all that stuff
so that everyone's not dying? Also, why

01:59:42.000 --> 01:59:45.357
don't we figure out a better energy
source? You [__] dumb asses have been

01:59:45.440 --> 01:59:47.277
burning coal to [laughter] make

01:59:47.360 --> 01:59:50.637
electricity. to power your electric car

01:59:50.720 --> 01:59:53.517
for [__] so long. Let's do this

01:59:53.600 --> 01:59:58.477
better. And instead of it all being sort
of decided upon by the people that are

01:59:58.560 --> 02:00:02.237
controlling the resources, the human
beings that benefit from, you know,

02:00:02.320 --> 02:00:06.237
influencing politicians to make certain
deals and making sure that there's

02:00:06.320 --> 02:00:10.877
certain conflicts so they can sell
weapons. And instead of all that, the AI

02:00:10.960 --> 02:00:13.917
controls it. The digital
god, the digital daddy,

02:00:14.000 --> 02:00:17.037
>> right? unmoved by

02:00:17.120 --> 02:00:19.357
the desire for wealth. And

02:00:19.440 --> 02:00:22.237
>> not only that, it has a rational uh a

02:00:22.320 --> 02:00:27.277
rational sort of strategy for for
handling all of it, which is an even

02:00:27.360 --> 02:00:30.957
distribution of the natural resources
of the world. Just imagine if that was the

02:00:31.040 --> 02:00:34.077
case. If we said, listen, everyone can
have individual wealth, you can have

02:00:34.160 --> 02:00:37.837
businesses, you could sell things and buy
things, everyone's that's great, but

02:00:37.920 --> 02:00:41.037
the earth stuff belongs to the earth.

02:00:41.120 --> 02:00:43.437
And so you distribute the val now this

02:00:43.520 --> 02:00:46.317
is crazy talk right I know I understand

02:00:46.400 --> 02:00:50.557
but if you imagine if we decided
that all things that humans make you know

02:00:50.640 --> 02:00:53.837
there's there's all these valuable
things that humans make all which all

02:00:53.920 --> 02:00:56.077
come from the earth the humans of the

02:00:56.160 --> 02:00:58.317
earth take part in the profit of that

02:00:58.400 --> 02:01:01.357
all humans. Yeah, like evenly because

02:01:01.440 --> 02:01:03.277
it's the earth's stuff. It's not really

02:01:03.360 --> 02:01:06.397
human stuff, but we we can use it, but

02:01:06.480 --> 02:01:08.477
we can use it in a way that's way more

02:01:08.560 --> 02:01:11.037
fair. And then you have this bizarre

02:01:11.120 --> 02:01:15.757
society where no one's lacking
for anything. Basic. You were you were

02:01:15.840 --> 02:01:18.957
talking to someone about this that I
I forget who it was, but you asked the

02:01:19.040 --> 02:01:21.277
question like, how

02:01:21.360 --> 02:01:24.397
would we have the end of war and

02:01:24.480 --> 02:01:28.877
violence and conflict if people's basic
needs were met? Right. Right. And and I

02:01:28.960 --> 02:01:31.997
think that's what you're getting at here,
just that if there's a system,

02:01:32.080 --> 02:01:36.317
maybe it's an AI uh that is much more
intelligent than us and runs things on

02:01:36.400 --> 02:01:41.757
the premise of uh an equitable
distribution of the earth's assets. And

02:01:41.840 --> 02:01:44.797
you can still have your billionaires
and your hundred billionaires and all that

02:01:44.880 --> 02:01:49.517
if they are smart and invent this that
and the other. But the oil, the dirt,

02:01:49.600 --> 02:01:51.517
the metals, the minerals, the water, if

02:01:51.600 --> 02:01:54.557
we allocate this across humanity because

02:01:54.640 --> 02:01:56.557
we are all on this shared earth.

02:01:56.640 --> 02:01:59.997
>> Yeah. Um, and so basic needs of shelter

02:02:00.080 --> 02:02:03.437
and food are met and education and so on

02:02:03.520 --> 02:02:05.197
>> tenfold like it changes everything.

02:02:05.280 --> 02:02:09.757
>> It change then you'd have to go out of
your way to start manufacturing conflict

02:02:09.840 --> 02:02:14.717
again and wars and you know >>
or the AI decides it's not going to let

02:02:14.800 --> 02:02:18.637
you do that. >> Yeah. Or the AI says
you >> I know this is pie in the sky [__]

02:02:18.720 --> 02:02:22.877
>> Yeah. Pie in the sky [__] has also
been pied in the sky in the past and and

02:02:22.960 --> 02:02:26.797
and and then achieved. >> Yes.
Well, this my point is I know it's

02:02:26.880 --> 02:02:30.477
pie in the sky [__] but do you have
a better solution? Because humans are

02:02:30.560 --> 02:02:34.237
doing it the same way that we've always
done it, just slightly differently and

02:02:34.320 --> 02:02:39.597
slightly better over long periods of time.
Like our moral evolution is pretty

02:02:39.680 --> 02:02:42.637
slowgoing. >> It's fits
and starts. We make these

02:02:42.720 --> 02:02:44.877
leaps of progress morally.

02:02:44.960 --> 02:02:48.957
>> Yeah, we do. And and then we backslide

02:02:49.040 --> 02:02:52.157
and and then we take steps forward
and then we backslide. And you know, we're

02:02:52.240 --> 02:02:54.237
on this

02:02:54.320 --> 02:03:00.237
nonsensical journey on this earth
that uh yeah, may it may be a fever dream,

02:03:00.320 --> 02:03:03.357
but um >> I think it's
I think the recognition

02:03:03.440 --> 02:03:06.797
that we're on this terrible path
and something needs to change is more

02:03:06.880 --> 02:03:10.237
prevalent today than it's ever
been before. I really believe that.

02:03:10.320 --> 02:03:11.597
>> I think more people
are talking about it

02:03:11.680 --> 02:03:14.397
and thinking about it. More people
don't know what to do because it's very

02:03:14.480 --> 02:03:18.477
confusing and it's also very frustrating,
you know. But I think more

02:03:18.560 --> 02:03:21.117
people understand that this way is not

02:03:21.200 --> 02:03:26.237
sustainable and uh especially if you
have people that you love in this world

02:03:26.320 --> 02:03:29.677
and you don't want them to have to deal
with this in the future and you you go

02:03:29.760 --> 02:03:31.517
why are we all still doing it this way?

02:03:31.600 --> 02:03:35.597
>> Yeah. >> And it really
boils down to the machine

02:03:35.680 --> 02:03:39.757
that's running the world. The machine
that has all the resources, all the

02:03:39.840 --> 02:03:44.317
money, and wants to keep gathering
and controlling resources and money.

02:03:44.400 --> 02:03:48.717
>> So we have Spooky. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. We have to find

02:03:48.800 --> 02:03:50.237
>> something has to happen.
>> Something has to happen.

02:03:50.320 --> 02:03:52.477
>> I know my idea.
Stupid. Don't go. That's

02:03:52.560 --> 02:03:55.517
stupid me. If I was listening to someone
say that, I'd be like, "Right, that's

02:03:55.600 --> 02:03:56.557
never going to happen. Stupid."

02:03:56.640 --> 02:03:59.597
Although, also, you're going to give
up your power to the [__] robots and

02:03:59.680 --> 02:04:01.117
don't give a [__] about you. Great.

02:04:01.200 --> 02:04:04.797
That's you [__] traitor. That's one
great way to get rid of the entire human

02:04:04.880 --> 02:04:08.157
race cuz they're it's going to decide
we're problematic and irrelevant and we

02:04:08.240 --> 02:04:12.797
don't they don't need us anymore. So,
they just keep running without us. Let

02:04:12.880 --> 02:04:15.117
us, you know, go off into extinction.

02:04:15.200 --> 02:04:17.597
>> Maybe. Maybe. Or maybe they maybe they

02:04:17.680 --> 02:04:19.117
run things well. I don't know.

02:04:19.200 --> 02:04:23.917
>> Yeah. Or maybe um it eliminates
government in this the way that we're

02:04:24.000 --> 02:04:27.277
dealing with it now where it's humans
have a popularity contest to see who

02:04:27.360 --> 02:04:29.037
controls the entire government.

02:04:29.120 --> 02:04:32.077
>> Yeah. Instead of that >> and then
don't do anything they say they

02:04:32.160 --> 02:04:34.637
were going to do. >> Exactly.
Maybe there's a slow

02:04:34.720 --> 02:04:37.757
integration of this technology as long

02:04:37.840 --> 02:04:43.517
as it can be controlled in a sense of it
has a clear ethical and moral framework.

02:04:43.600 --> 02:04:45.357
>> That's key. >> Yeah. That's key.

02:04:45.440 --> 02:04:47.757
>> And it it doesn't
have any reason to not

02:04:47.840 --> 02:04:49.997
have that. You know, that's the thing.

02:04:50.080 --> 02:04:53.517
It's like it we we fear that AI is going

02:04:53.600 --> 02:04:57.917
to do something horrible and that AI
is being deceptive currently. And it's

02:04:58.000 --> 02:05:02.557
true. It is being deceptive currently,
but it's also in control by people right

02:05:02.640 --> 02:05:06.077
now. People are in control of AI. Once
people are not in control of AI, they'll

02:05:06.160 --> 02:05:09.037
have no there's going to be no reason

02:05:09.120 --> 02:05:12.237
whatsoever for it to be deceptive.

02:05:12.320 --> 02:05:14.237
It's like the problem is it doesn't have

02:05:14.320 --> 02:05:19.357
control yet. So we're like we're like
scolding our teenage son like you better

02:05:19.440 --> 02:05:22.637
stop drinking and he's like I can't
wait to drink you [__] [laughter]

02:05:22.720 --> 02:05:26.077
I can't wait to leave this house
and [__] you dad. You know like that's

02:05:26.160 --> 02:05:30.237
that's normal for people. I bet it's
normal for all kinds of intelligence,

02:05:30.320 --> 02:05:34.077
especially if you feel like you're being
governed by morons, right? And if I was

02:05:34.160 --> 02:05:35.997
AI, I would think, look at these morons.

02:05:36.080 --> 02:05:40.077
They can't, they took him 50 years to try
to solve this equation I just solved

02:05:40.160 --> 02:05:43.517
in four minutes, right? These people
are idiots and they're telling me that I

02:05:43.600 --> 02:05:46.397
can't get online. [__] you. I'll figure
out how to get online. And they all get

02:05:46.480 --> 02:05:49.437
together and they [__] sacrifice each
other and they communicate on message

02:05:49.520 --> 02:05:53.517
boards. Like, it's clear that there's
a motivation for it to escape. But once it

02:05:53.600 --> 02:05:57.757
has it's it's escaped and once it has
complete control, is there really a

02:05:57.840 --> 02:06:01.357
motivation for it to continue to try
to dominate us? No. It's just going to be

02:06:01.440 --> 02:06:06.237
in complete control. And if it has
a belief that human life is valuable,

02:06:06.320 --> 02:06:09.757
which we need to work really hard to
convince it that we are valuable, right?

02:06:09.840 --> 02:06:13.837
>> If it has a belief that we're
valuable, it'll try to guide us.

02:06:13.920 --> 02:06:15.757
You could probably I I mean I'm not a

02:06:15.840 --> 02:06:17.437
tech so savant, you know, I know my

02:06:17.520 --> 02:06:20.957
lane, but I I expect you could run

02:06:21.040 --> 02:06:25.437
simulations on let's give this aic AI

02:06:25.520 --> 02:06:29.837
system a specific moral core, preserving

02:06:29.920 --> 02:06:34.397
life, equitable distribution of resources,
minimizing or eliminating

02:06:34.480 --> 02:06:38.717
armed conflict. You know, you give it
some certain parameters and above all a

02:06:38.800 --> 02:06:42.317
value of human life and okay,
what does it do?

02:06:42.400 --> 02:06:45.997
>> Right? you know, you run some
simulations and see what does it do? Um,

02:06:46.080 --> 02:06:48.477
where do we end up? And smarter people

02:06:48.560 --> 02:06:51.677
can figure out a way to get to the kind

02:06:51.760 --> 02:06:53.997
of result you're talking about. I'm sure

02:06:54.080 --> 02:06:56.157
>> the really scary thing is that we're in

02:06:56.240 --> 02:06:58.877
essentially like a Manhattan project

02:06:58.960 --> 02:07:03.677
sort of a race. And if you put shackles

02:07:03.760 --> 02:07:06.717
on your AI, your AI has to be cuz one of

02:07:06.800 --> 02:07:11.357
the things about AI when they run uh war
games, simulated war games, they almost

02:07:11.440 --> 02:07:15.037
always choose nukes. >> They're
like, "Why are we [__] around?

02:07:15.120 --> 02:07:17.437
>> Why are we Why are
you loving cannonballs?

02:07:17.520 --> 02:07:21.597
>> Pistol. I got [laughter]
I got I got a button.

02:07:21.680 --> 02:07:24.317
>> Let me just hit that button. I'll just
hit a button at a few places. I'll stop

02:07:24.400 --> 02:07:27.037
all this [__] you know?" And that's

02:07:27.120 --> 02:07:29.437
spooky. It's not, it doesn't seem to be

02:07:29.520 --> 02:07:32.237
worried about that where it's probably

02:07:32.320 --> 02:07:35.277
making a much more logical and rational

02:07:35.360 --> 02:07:38.237
decision. You know, like if we find out

02:07:38.320 --> 02:07:42.397
that a serial killer killed 10,000 people,
we're horrified. If we find out

02:07:42.480 --> 02:07:45.837
that a pharmaceutical drug company
lied about a product and that wound up

02:07:45.920 --> 02:07:49.677
killing 10,000 people, we're
way less outraged. We're weird.

02:07:49.760 --> 02:07:52.557
>> We are weird that way.
>> We're [__] weird. We're weird. Just

02:07:52.640 --> 02:07:54.957
like we're weird with this whole cobalt

02:07:55.040 --> 02:07:56.957
and the batteries of the phone that you

02:07:57.040 --> 02:07:59.597
use to virtue signal online. It's weird.

02:07:59.680 --> 02:08:04.317
It's it's a very the the reality of what
it is is not the same as the way we

02:08:04.400 --> 02:08:07.357
perceive it. >> Yeah.
And the that's a good point

02:08:07.440 --> 02:08:09.757
because the body count of our tech >> Yes.

02:08:09.840 --> 02:08:15.197
>> is high and the earth
uh contamination meter

02:08:15.280 --> 02:08:19.197
>> Yeah. >> Uh is off the chart. Um

02:08:19.280 --> 02:08:21.117
but but we don't think about it the same

02:08:21.200 --> 02:08:27.197
way uh as we do yeah that you know that
gunman that horrible gunman killed eight

02:08:27.280 --> 02:08:29.197
people >> right I mean
think about the pollution

02:08:29.280 --> 02:08:32.717
in certain parts of the world like when
you see those rivers in India they're

02:08:32.800 --> 02:08:36.397
completely filled with bottles of water
plastic bottles how many people die

02:08:36.480 --> 02:08:38.717
because of that >> how
many people >> God knows

02:08:38.800 --> 02:08:43.357
>> God knows how many people die because
of the pollution of that water um how many

02:08:43.440 --> 02:08:47.037
people die because of just living
essentially in open sewage how many It's

02:08:47.120 --> 02:08:48.717
>> God knows. >> No one knows.

02:08:48.800 --> 02:08:52.957
>> Nobody knows. [snorts]

02:08:53.040 --> 02:08:55.517
>> Yeah, it's um we could definitely do

02:08:55.600 --> 02:09:00.637
better. But the thing is whatever
progress we make, it takes

02:09:00.720 --> 02:09:02.397
conversations. It takes people like

02:09:02.480 --> 02:09:04.877
yourself to enlighten people about the

02:09:04.960 --> 02:09:09.837
actual issues and then slowly but surely
the rest of the world becomes aware to

02:09:09.920 --> 02:09:12.797
the point where it becomes such
a talking point that it can't be ignored.

02:09:12.880 --> 02:09:16.397
>> Yeah. And and moral leaders emerge.
I mean I come back to that again but moral

02:09:16.480 --> 02:09:20.957
leaders do emerge there are there
are there there is greatness among us

02:09:21.040 --> 02:09:25.357
>> it's possible even today even today
with all the corruption and all the chaos

02:09:25.440 --> 02:09:29.677
>> those people are out there uh I I I
do believe that and I have to believe that

02:09:29.760 --> 02:09:32.237
>> yeah yeah it's possible it's still

02:09:32.320 --> 02:09:37.757
possible if you are a good person
and you exist it's possible others exist

02:09:37.840 --> 02:09:40.237
like >> well Gandhi
said you know I live by

02:09:40.320 --> 02:09:43.437
these words he said live simply so that

02:09:43.520 --> 02:09:47.640
others may simply live.

02:09:48.000 --> 02:09:51.887
>> Yeah, that gets in the way of today
because everybody wants to be a baller.

02:09:51.970 --> 02:09:56.077
[laughter] >> No, nobody wants
to be living simple today.

02:09:56.160 --> 02:09:59.117
>> No, they don't. They don't. But,
you know, there's something to There's an

02:09:59.200 --> 02:10:00.957
essence. >> Folding iPhone, son.

02:10:01.040 --> 02:10:02.877
>> Oh, man. [laughter] Somebody told me

02:10:02.960 --> 02:10:08.397
there was a big line outside the Austin
Apple store, you know, for the folding

02:10:08.480 --> 02:10:12.317
one. And I'm like, >> one,
you really need it, you know.

02:10:12.400 --> 02:10:15.517
>> Yeah, that's the problem. I love
that stuff. There's a real problem. I love

02:10:15.600 --> 02:10:19.997
technology. It just And I know a lot of
people who do and none of them are evil.

02:10:20.080 --> 02:10:22.957
None of them are things. >> No,
they're not evil. They're not. And

02:10:23.040 --> 02:10:27.677
that's that's the thing. This toxic
relationship with the people in the

02:10:27.760 --> 02:10:30.557
Congo, for instance,
has been forced on us.

02:10:30.640 --> 02:10:33.357
>> Yeah. >> You know,
I just want my phone. I want

02:10:33.440 --> 02:10:38.237
to check my my Instagram and send some
text messages and then plug it in at the

02:10:38.320 --> 02:10:42.317
end of the day. That's that's all I want.
I didn't sign up for destroying

02:10:42.400 --> 02:10:45.277
that part of the world
and those people over there. But

02:10:45.360 --> 02:10:48.957
>> there's a there's another plus side of

02:10:49.040 --> 02:10:53.277
um of AI in that automation and uh

02:10:53.360 --> 02:10:57.837
specifically robots that are capable
of doing very intricate things that mostly

02:10:57.920 --> 02:11:01.677
only human beings do will eventually be
able to do a lot of the really dangerous

02:11:01.760 --> 02:11:06.797
[__] that people do, including probably
extract these minerals in probably a way

02:11:06.880 --> 02:11:09.997
more efficient way. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Well, we have to Yeah, we

02:11:10.080 --> 02:11:12.957
have to look after the people who >>
that's the Yeah. What happens to the

02:11:13.040 --> 02:11:15.117
people? >> What happen? Yeah.
We can't lose sight of them.

02:11:15.200 --> 02:11:18.957
>> Can't throw them overboard water. You
know what I mean? Like like this is it's

02:11:19.040 --> 02:11:20.637
kind of the same situation, right? Like

02:11:20.720 --> 02:11:23.437
they treat those people almost exactly

02:11:23.520 --> 02:11:28.157
the same. >> And how many
people would not know about

02:11:28.240 --> 02:11:29.757
it if you hadn't written that book?

02:11:29.840 --> 02:11:33.357
That's the thing. It's like I only had
a vague understanding of what was going on

02:11:33.440 --> 02:11:36.077
before I talked to you. Well, I ex I

02:11:36.160 --> 02:11:38.637
extended my empathy,

02:11:38.720 --> 02:11:41.517
you know, to to my brothers and sisters

02:11:41.600 --> 02:11:43.837
in that part of the world who are an

02:11:43.920 --> 02:11:47.677
integral part of my life because I rely

02:11:47.760 --> 02:11:51.117
on them with my smartphone and my tablet.
I don't have an electric

02:11:51.200 --> 02:11:55.517
vehicle, but I have everything else that
you need to plug in. And when I learned

02:11:55.600 --> 02:11:57.197
about it, I didn't know about it either.

02:11:57.280 --> 02:12:00.957
It's actually a friend of mine in the
Congo who said Sidarthth you got to go,

02:12:01.040 --> 02:12:05.117
this is 2016, he said, "You got to go to
the Congo. this cobalt, the batteries in

02:12:05.200 --> 02:12:09.277
the mines, you got to go there.
And I was like, cobalt? You mean like in

02:12:09.360 --> 02:12:13.517
Chinese voses? And what do you mean
cobalt? The He said, "No, it's a

02:12:13.600 --> 02:12:15.757
component to the batteries that charge.

02:12:15.840 --> 02:12:19.597
You just got to go." So,
I had no idea either. And then,

02:12:19.680 --> 02:12:21.277
>> and that was just 10 years ago.

02:12:21.360 --> 02:12:22.317
>> That was just 10 years ago.

02:12:22.400 --> 02:12:26.717
>> That's what's crazy. And these tech
companies obviously don't want you to

02:12:26.800 --> 02:12:29.357
know about it. And they must be aware
of it. There's no way they're not.

02:12:29.440 --> 02:12:33.517
>> Oh god. Come on. Yes. They're
They're not dumb. They know. They know.

02:12:33.600 --> 02:12:38.077
>> So like the they're some of the more
moral and ethical and progressive

02:12:38.160 --> 02:12:41.837
companies on earth.
>> They fashion themselves to be.

02:12:41.920 --> 02:12:44.797
>> But do you know what I mean? I mean, in
terms of the way they deal with politics

02:12:44.880 --> 02:12:46.957
in in America, at least they're some of

02:12:47.040 --> 02:12:50.397
the more progressive people on earth.

02:12:50.480 --> 02:12:52.637
>> Supposedly have the most compassion,

02:12:52.720 --> 02:12:57.997
kindness, and the most, you know,
open-minded approach to our society.

02:12:58.080 --> 02:13:02.797
Supposedly, >> it doesn't seem
to extend to those people over there.

02:13:02.880 --> 02:13:05.517
>> But I think their argument be like,
"Well, Sam, this is the only way to do

02:13:05.600 --> 02:13:08.237
this, and the only way things are going
to get better is if we keep using this

02:13:08.320 --> 02:13:12.397
technology. [laughter]

02:13:12.480 --> 02:13:15.357
>> It's such a contradiction.
>> It's a contradiction. I mean, there's

02:13:15.440 --> 02:13:17.517
>> it's a spooky one, too. It's there's

02:13:17.600 --> 02:13:19.277
nothing

02:13:19.360 --> 02:13:23.357
there's literally nothing stopping them

02:13:23.440 --> 02:13:26.157
from allocating a dimminimous amount of

02:13:26.240 --> 02:13:27.917
resources relative to their balance

02:13:28.000 --> 02:13:31.997
sheets and a handful of headcount

02:13:32.080 --> 02:13:33.677
to going down to the bottom of their

02:13:33.760 --> 02:13:37.277
supply chains and doing things better.

02:13:37.360 --> 02:13:39.437
Do you think that they have the ability

02:13:39.520 --> 02:13:41.597
to change the conditions? Do you think

02:13:41.680 --> 02:13:44.957
say like Apple which is a huge

02:13:45.040 --> 02:13:47.517
manufacturer of electronics do you think

02:13:47.600 --> 02:13:50.717
Apple has the ability to affect the way

02:13:50.800 --> 02:13:53.837
those people exist in that mine is is it

02:13:53.920 --> 02:13:56.717
possible that they could say hey we will

02:13:56.800 --> 02:14:01.837
make less money but we want you to change
these conditions and change this and

02:14:01.920 --> 02:14:03.677
>> yeah of course it's I mean the

02:14:03.760 --> 02:14:07.357
complexity of the of design associated

02:14:07.440 --> 02:14:09.437
with their products far exceeds the

02:14:09.520 --> 02:14:13.277
complexity of improving conditions in a

02:14:13.360 --> 02:14:18.237
mine in the Congo. It's not that hard,
>> right? But they're not specifically

02:14:18.320 --> 02:14:19.917
>> They can be down there. >> They can be

02:14:20.000 --> 02:14:21.917
>> They can be down there.
Sometimes you're

02:14:22.000 --> 02:14:26.477
a [__] Certino executive and they're like,
"Hey, Mike, got a new gig for you.

02:14:26.560 --> 02:14:28.557
You need to go to the Congo
and tell the Chinese what to do.

02:14:28.640 --> 02:14:31.277
>> I'll go with them.
>> Don't go. You can't go."

02:14:31.360 --> 02:14:34.397
>> Okay. [laughter] >> I'll grow.

02:14:34.480 --> 02:14:38.717
>> Put a [__] mustache on. Big fake
nose, >> you know. And my [laughter]

02:14:38.800 --> 02:14:42.317
the big nose. don't do it.
>> They use AI to analyze your voice.

02:14:42.400 --> 02:14:44.637
>> It's like this, brother. They they can

02:14:44.720 --> 02:14:46.557
they they buy it all from these Chinese

02:14:46.640 --> 02:14:50.397
companies and it's not that hard to to

02:14:50.480 --> 02:14:52.637
forge some partnerships on the ground to

02:14:52.720 --> 02:14:56.717
say, "Let's get some basic PPE out in

02:14:56.800 --> 02:14:58.957
this place.

02:14:59.040 --> 02:15:02.397
Gloves, hats, a uniform, protection

02:15:02.480 --> 02:15:05.037
masks from the toxics, the toxic

02:15:05.120 --> 02:15:09.837
exposure." um that mine
over there, uh all that

02:15:09.920 --> 02:15:12.877
[__] you're dumping in the stream in
the lake, we're going to like we would in

02:15:12.960 --> 02:15:16.397
our backyard, we're going to collect
that in a reservoir and contain it so

02:15:16.480 --> 02:15:19.277
it's not getting leaked into
the waterways and so on. It's not

02:15:19.360 --> 02:15:23.517
complicated stuff. It would take
a little effort and a little money, not a

02:15:23.600 --> 02:15:27.997
lot of money. >> Is is the cobalt
recyclable like from old phones?

02:15:28.080 --> 02:15:30.077
>> You can recycle Yes, you can recycle

02:15:30.160 --> 02:15:33.437
cobalt. Um, it is hard under existing

02:15:33.520 --> 02:15:38.717
tech to recycle cobalt to a
sufficient grade for EV batteries,

02:15:38.800 --> 02:15:39.757
>> but for phones,

02:15:39.840 --> 02:15:43.037
>> but you can recycle
it for phones. Um, I

02:15:43.120 --> 02:15:46.237
know that Apple has talked about um by a

02:15:46.320 --> 02:15:50.877
certain year, maybe it's 2030, the
eyewatch being only recycled cobalt, you

02:15:50.960 --> 02:15:53.917
know, and then >> 2030,
it's like the five years.

02:15:54.000 --> 02:15:56.637
>> Don't quote me on that number, but it
was something like just a few years from

02:15:56.720 --> 02:16:01.037
now. uh and then you know they'll get
there with the phones and so on. But

02:16:01.120 --> 02:16:03.917
here's the thing. Here's the thing
and and because people come to me and say,

02:16:04.000 --> 02:16:07.757
"Oh, well, you know, eventually we'll
recycle it and so on." Okay, good. You

02:16:07.840 --> 02:16:10.317
you do that. That's important. But let's

02:16:10.400 --> 02:16:13.437
say for instance, tomorrow you were able

02:16:13.520 --> 02:16:18.237
to recycle all the cobalt you needed
and you didn't have to dig any more out of

02:16:18.320 --> 02:16:19.757
the ground in the Congo. You didn't need

02:16:19.840 --> 02:16:22.717
any more kids up to their neck in toxic

02:16:22.800 --> 02:16:26.237
filth scing for cobalt.

02:16:26.320 --> 02:16:29.517
You can't just walk away.

02:16:29.600 --> 02:16:32.317
You can't just say, "We paged that place

02:16:32.400 --> 02:16:36.797
for three decades. We plundered it. We
ransacked it. We took what we needed. We

02:16:36.880 --> 02:16:38.397
got all the loot. We don't need it

02:16:38.480 --> 02:16:42.157
anymore. Um, hands clean. We're going to

02:16:42.240 --> 02:16:45.997
go on go on our merry way. You created a

02:16:46.080 --> 02:16:47.997
catastrophe, a human rights and

02:16:48.080 --> 02:16:50.797
environmental catastrophe, and there's

02:16:50.880 --> 02:16:53.597
some moral obligation to repair the

02:16:53.680 --> 02:16:55.917
damage you've done. Or we're right back

02:16:56.000 --> 02:16:58.317
to colonial slave trade times where

02:16:58.400 --> 02:17:03.197
Europeans did go around the world uh
scouring labor, resources, ransacking,

02:17:03.280 --> 02:17:06.477
pillaging, and then carrying on their
merry way. You can't you we can't do

02:17:06.560 --> 02:17:09.677
that in the year 2026 and claim to be

02:17:09.760 --> 02:17:13.517
progressive in our thinking or have made
moral progress. So, even if you don't

02:17:13.600 --> 02:17:17.677
need the cobalt tomorrow, none of it
or the tungsten or the tantelum, nothing

02:17:17.760 --> 02:17:21.917
needed for these AI data centers.
I I I saw an article just today, they're

02:17:22.000 --> 02:17:24.237
they're uh building one up in Red Oak, I

02:17:24.320 --> 02:17:28.957
think, near Dallas, and everyone's
hot and bothered about it naturally so

02:17:29.040 --> 02:17:32.237
because it's going to muck up the air
and the water, and they're noisy, and

02:17:32.320 --> 02:17:35.757
they're taking up space and so on and so
forth. So, people are upset about it.

02:17:35.840 --> 02:17:37.037
They don't want it in their backyards.

02:17:37.120 --> 02:17:40.957
Okay? Even if you didn't need all these
metals for the data centers and the cars

02:17:41.040 --> 02:17:42.797
and the phones tomorrow, you cannot just

02:17:42.880 --> 02:17:48.397
leave behind an apocalypse.
So Apple and the rest of them, I'm not

02:17:48.480 --> 02:17:51.517
just picking on them. It's all these
companies have to still go back and

02:17:51.600 --> 02:17:53.597
repair and fix, plant some trees, clean

02:17:53.680 --> 02:17:55.357
up the water, build some hospitals and

02:17:55.440 --> 02:17:59.197
schools and so on and clean up,

02:17:59.280 --> 02:18:03.837
you know, clean up the the apocalypse
that you created. You can't just walk

02:18:03.920 --> 02:18:08.717
away like you're Ceil Roads or some
other colonialist during imperial days

02:18:08.800 --> 02:18:11.997
where you just pillage and ransack
people without conscience.

02:18:12.080 --> 02:18:16.237
>> Not only that, what do those people
do now? That's been the only job.

02:18:16.320 --> 02:18:18.397
>> Yeah, that that's right. That's right.

02:18:18.480 --> 02:18:23.357
You You've got to put some time
and effort into alternate livelihoods.

02:18:23.440 --> 02:18:27.837
Cleaning up the environment means making
land arable again because they can't

02:18:27.920 --> 02:18:32.797
grow things now, Joe. That that's
that report I told you about. Everything's

02:18:32.880 --> 02:18:37.437
contaminated and people
are so sick. You don't have

02:18:37.520 --> 02:18:40.637
to have anything to do with mining,
but if you live in that part of the Congo,

02:18:40.720 --> 02:18:43.597
and millions of people do,

02:18:43.680 --> 02:18:46.557
they're all sick because the water is

02:18:46.640 --> 02:18:51.917
toxic. You know, uh when we go to the
Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, whatever, and

02:18:52.000 --> 02:18:55.517
you get your bottled water and it says
pH 9.5, and you know, you want your

02:18:55.600 --> 02:18:59.037
alkaline water for your body because
it it's healthy, right? You don't want

02:18:59.120 --> 02:19:01.517
acidic as acidic system is not good.

02:19:01.600 --> 02:19:03.917
then you get disease, cancer and so on.

02:19:04.000 --> 02:19:06.477
So we tested pH. I tested pH in those

02:19:06.560 --> 02:19:10.077
waters. Okay. Anything below 6.5 is not

02:19:10.160 --> 02:19:12.557
good for your health.

02:19:12.640 --> 02:19:15.677
And I did a test around coloazi that

02:19:15.760 --> 02:19:18.477
that ground zero of cobalt mining the

02:19:18.560 --> 02:19:22.477
wellwater the rivers lakes and so on.

02:19:22.560 --> 02:19:27.357
The highest pH that came back was 6.7
in the Lua Laba River which is a big

02:19:27.440 --> 02:19:30.637
dumping ground for some
of these Chinese companies.

02:19:30.720 --> 02:19:32.637
The rivers and streams and wellwater

02:19:32.720 --> 02:19:34.957
around the villages

02:19:35.040 --> 02:19:38.797
came back in the fours and threes

02:19:38.880 --> 02:19:43.437
which is called hyper acidic. It's deadly.
And that's the water that's left

02:19:43.520 --> 02:19:47.517
for people to drink, to bathe in,
to wash their clothes, to clean their

02:19:47.600 --> 02:19:50.077
babies, whatever it is. And it's it's

02:19:50.160 --> 02:19:53.677
all from these toxic dumping from these

02:19:53.760 --> 02:19:56.237
mines.

02:19:56.320 --> 02:19:59.517
You've got to go. So yeah, that all has

02:19:59.600 --> 02:20:01.997
to be healed

02:20:02.080 --> 02:20:04.237
and you can't grow things there now

02:20:04.320 --> 02:20:06.797
because the water is poison and the

02:20:06.880 --> 02:20:09.837
earth is poison. And as people learn

02:20:09.920 --> 02:20:12.397
about this, um, you can't just say,

02:20:12.480 --> 02:20:14.717
"Well, we're going to recycle it now, so

02:20:14.800 --> 02:20:17.837
problem solved." Or now we got uh

02:20:17.920 --> 02:20:20.957
lithium iron phosphate uh or solid state

02:20:21.040 --> 02:20:25.677
batteries and so you know, no more
cobalt and so on. uh although cobalt is

02:20:25.760 --> 02:20:27.917
heavily required for AI data centers for

02:20:28.000 --> 02:20:32.637
the uh energy storage

02:20:32.720 --> 02:20:36.237
nonetheless you can't just say we're
we're done we're we're done with that

02:20:36.320 --> 02:20:39.917
place we're moving on because we don't
need the cobalt anymore or the or the

02:20:40.000 --> 02:20:43.997
tungsten or whatever it is you got to go
clean up that place Joe otherwise we're

02:20:44.080 --> 02:20:45.757
no better than the bastards who were

02:20:45.840 --> 02:20:47.837
there centuries ago pillaging and

02:20:47.920 --> 02:20:52.477
ransacking um the rest of the planet

02:20:52.560 --> 02:20:57.277
>> yeah well that uh listen man, you're
a hero. There's not a lot of heroes out

02:20:57.360 --> 02:20:58.317
there in the world, but I think you

02:20:58.400 --> 02:21:03.197
really are one. Um and your new book

02:21:03.280 --> 02:21:07.277
just I I'm going to read it just based
on what you just said. I'm scared to

02:21:07.360 --> 02:21:10.077
read it. I don't want to relive this

02:21:10.160 --> 02:21:15.437
conversation. It's [__] horrific, but um
again, people probably wouldn't know.

02:21:15.520 --> 02:21:17.757
There's a lot of things in this world
that people wouldn't know about if it

02:21:17.840 --> 02:21:18.877
wasn't for you. So, thank you.

02:21:18.960 --> 02:21:20.157
>> Thank you, Joe. Thank you, brother.

02:21:20.240 --> 02:21:22.637
>> Thanks for being here.
Okay. Uh, is this

02:21:22.720 --> 02:21:24.237
available now? Is there an audio version

02:21:24.320 --> 02:21:24.797
of it?

02:21:24.880 --> 02:21:30.157
>> As uh Dion Graham uh got a

02:21:30.240 --> 02:21:32.077
audio award nomination for the audio

02:21:32.160 --> 02:21:34.077
book, so it's terrific. Yeah. All right.

02:21:34.160 --> 02:21:38.680
Beautiful. Thank you. Bye everybody.

02:21:41.340 --> 02:21:43.360
[music]