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Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

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>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

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>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN
PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day.

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>> We're up. All right.
>> Good to see you, sir.

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>> Yeah. Good to see you, Joe.

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>> Um, first of [music]
all, thank you very

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much for everything you've done and for

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just I I can't tell you how many people

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have come up to me and said, "Thank you
for shedding light on what's going on in

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the Congo with the cobalt stuff. your

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book was so important and the fact that
you risked your life to get the kind of

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footage that you got.
You you legitimately risked your life.

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>> Yeah. >> That it is a
very dangerous part of the

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world right now with enormous amounts
of resources being pulled out and insane

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amounts of money being made

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>> and you know I think just people like

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you are rare. So thank you.
>> Oh man, you're uh you're gracious, Joe.

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You're really gracious. I I take that
to heart. It means a lot. And let me just

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say that the fact that you
continue to talk about

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it, you know, you and I first talked
about this uh talking to Jamie, it was

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almost 4 years ago.
>> Was it really that long ago?

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>> It was it was December 2022.

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>> That's crazy.

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>> So here we are September 26. So almost

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four years ago. And um you continue to

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talk about it now and again. And I
think that that's meant a lot to me. It's

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meant a lot to people in the Congo. Um,

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it's obvious this has captured your heart
and um, it you're to be commended

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for that conscience. >> Well,
I'm doing this talking. You're

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you're actually out there going and

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documenting all this stuff. This is a

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very strange world that we live in that

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at the very base of the all the greatest

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technology like all this stuff that we
have that's so incredible that allows us

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to find out so much about the world. the

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base of that you have slave labor
pulling minerals out of the ground.

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>> Yeah. You have slave labor, you have
child labor, you have militia run mines.

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You know, for for people who didn't hear
our last conversation, um go back and

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hear it, you know, because we walk

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through it and um I haven't been back
to the Congo since Cobalt Red came out and

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I knew it would be too
dangerous for me to go back.

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>> Yeah, definitely
don't go out. you know,

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it's just my colleague said pretty soon
after Cobalt Red came out, you know,

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there was there's there's there's a

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bounty for you. So, I can't go back.
Um, but I've stayed in touch with people

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there. I continued to get ground
research done and the conditions

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uh they're not much better, you know,
and in some ways they've continued to

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degrade because the fever for these

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these battery component metals and it's

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it's cobalt, but it's also the lithium,
the nickel, the copper, the tantelum,

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all the stuff that goes into our
smartphones, our tablets. You know, you

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and I, nobody we know can function

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without this stuff. And the bottom of

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the chain is tainted in child labor,

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slavery, violence, environmental

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destruction and contamination. And the

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new fever is the AI data centers.

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You know, we're building these um as

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fast as possible to support the AI

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economy and they require all the same

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metals and minerals. So the circuit

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boards, the servers, the heat sinks, uh

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the energy storage, they all require

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cobalt, copper, tin, tantelum, it's all

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coming out of Congo. [sighs]

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It's so such a strange aspect of human

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life that we require that and that the

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the the area is controlled by people
that are willing to do this. Like

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there's no like we don't get much of these
rare earth minerals from America, do we?

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>> No. No. No. Not much at all. No. That's
why it's it's almost all in the global

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south and in particular in the
heart of Africa these deposits.

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>> Can I ask you is it because it's not

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available? there's no ore in America
or it hasn't been mined like what is what

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are

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>> so it's a it's the dominating force is

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that the the largest and highest grade

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reserves of these crucial elements and

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rare earth metals are in central Africa

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um lithium expend extends more broadly

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to South America there's not much um

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there's not much in North America
there's some But here's the rub. Here's

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the rub. You can find some lithium
in the salt flats out west. You can find

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some cobalt along the Canadian North

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American border. Uh the rub is we
don't want to wreck our environment.

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>> Oh god.

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>> Digging the stuff out of the ground um

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and then processing it. But we're okay

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obliterating their environment and

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polluting it and contaminating it.
Um and I did another study. I told you I

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can't go back to the Congo, but I have

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colleagues and we've continued doing

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research and I I issued a report came

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out last year called blood batteries

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um through the University of Nottingham

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and we got to quantify some of the

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environmental impact which uh is so

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crucial to the story. It's crucial to

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the story of this data center push to

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the EV push, the environmental impact.

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And

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we use time lapse time-lapse satellite

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imagery to see that uh from the dawn of

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the sort of cobalt battery metal

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revolution to 2022,

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uh 40 50 60% of the forest areas gone.

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Um shrubbery, grasslands, all of that
gone, replaced with mining territory.

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And then >> is this the Congo as a whole?

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>> So we did. Yeah, this is across
the copper belt co copper cobalt region of

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the Congo where
the mining is taking place.

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>> And what percentage
of the Congo is that?

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>> Small part of it. >> Okay.
>> It's a small part in the southeast

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corner along the Zambian border.
I mean much of the Congo is rainforest,

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>> right? That's why I was confused.

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>> Up in the north Congo
is insanely dense and huge

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>> in the mining part. In the mining part.

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So you've got a massive loss of forestry

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and water bodies and an expansion of

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mining. And then we tested the water

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for heavy metals and acidity levels. And

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we did a case study in the town
of Kouesei, which is sort of ground zero

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for all these metals,
cobalt and copper and so on.

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And

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there was between 10 and 950 times the

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World Health Organization maximum

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recommended limit for human safety of a

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range of heavy metals from lead to

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cobalt to copper to uranium uh to

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chromium. Uh so the whole water sources

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in that part of the country have been

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completely contaminated. So, I point all

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this out because we object to that here.

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We don't want our trees gone. We don't
want our forest destroyed. We don't want

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our water contaminated. We don't want
the air to be polluted. But it's okay

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for it to happen over there kind of out
of sight to those people so long as we

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can plug in our phone, build out our

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data centers, uh keep buying our EVs and
so on. And then that's the story. Okay,

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that's the story that we're okay
destroying them in their world. uh so

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long as ours remains sacrosanked. And
that frankly is just the great hypocrisy

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of all this. >> Is there
an alternative like a viable

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alternative to supply the world
with the minerals that it needs?

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>> Not yet. Not yet. No. I mean,

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>> is it I'm sorry to interrupt, but is is

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it possible to do is it just an

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inevitable fact of when you do that kind
of high level mining, you're going to

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destroy the environment,
or could it be mitigated?

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>> It could do it could be done better.
I mean, you you do have to chop down all

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the trees where the deposit is. So,

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deforestation is inevitable, but let's

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say this was done in our backyard here

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in Austin. Someone found a big copper
cobalt tin tantelum deposit somewhere.

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There'd be rules to follow. You'd have
to deforest the whole place, but we'd

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probably say go plant the same number
of trees somewhere else to offset it. And

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there'd be a lot of rules around
containment, make sure you don't pollute

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the rivers and so on. And none of that

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is done in the global south. None of

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that none of that is done in Congo. Uh

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and it's mostly Chinese state-run mining

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companies um that don't give a [__]

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>> about the people in the environment
there. But our tech and EV companies all

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know that and they're all buying this

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stuff uh from them knowing that. So the

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chain is tainted. It's tainted
in in misery. It's tainted in blood. It's

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dained in environmental destruction. It

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doesn't have to be that way. Um, we

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don't have enough of this stuff
here to offset the demand,

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but we could start mining some of it here.
The problem is there's legitimate

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objections to the environmental impact.

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>> And is it an issue with even if they

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mitigate all the surface area stuff and
the pollution [snorts] that you're still

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going to deal with groundwater?

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>> Yeah, >> groundwater
contamination is inevitable,

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right? just all leeches in. I mean,
the pro it's it's not just the mining,

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>> the products they use to get >>
the the processing of of this stuff, you

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know, you get an ore

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>> that's got cobalt, copper, nickel,

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silver, bit of uranium in it, and you

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have to separate all that. And so

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there's heavy industrial acids, toxic

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industrial liquids used to dissolve and

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separate those metals.
And that's what inevitably leeches.

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>> They pump that stuff right into the
ground. It goes into the ground and then

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it seeps into the ground
water into the rivers, lakes.

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>> When did this all begin?

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>> So the the this the that part of the

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Congo in the southeastern corner from

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the town of Lubmbashi to Kouesei was

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mined for copper going back to colonial

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times. Uh it and something like a

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quarter of the bullets used in World War

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I were copper from that part of the

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Congo. Okay. So it copper mining goes
back a long ways, but there was other

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stuff there. It just didn't have

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industrial value yet. The uranium

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that was used in the bombs dropped on

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Hiroshima and Nagasaki came
from that same part of the Congo.

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>> Whoa. >> The high
the highest grade uranium

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um deposit known in the world at that

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time. Isn't it insane that that place

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has like the most valuable resources
on earth, but yet it's one of the poorest

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places on earth? >> Yeah.
It's it's the resource curse.

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You know, when when when we find

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treasure somewhere, it attracts the

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pirates to come in and loot the place.

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And when a place is war torn or

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colonized or corrupt or filled with

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strife, um, and it just chaos runs riot.

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So, >> and you can get people
to work for basically nothing.

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>> Yeah. There's virtually no alternative.

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There's there's virtually no alternative
way to survive. And and people have to

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understand that, too. When you displace

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hundreds of thousands of people with
a big mining operation, meaning there

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there were villages there and maybe
a river and they used to fish and grow

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some potatoes or whatever. And you just

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displace all those people and you set up

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a mining operation the size of a small

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city. Um, there's no other way for them

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to survive but to bring their kids
and their wives and come into that same

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mining territory. And this is this is

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what happens every day. Roll up their

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sleeves and get down in that toxic dirt

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and try to gather enough ore in a sack

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for the day to make a dollar. And and I

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know now roughly how many people it is.

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When you and I spoke in 2026,

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>> 2020

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>> 2022, sorry, we're now in 2026.

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uh I had documented the human horror
taking place and that that's what cobalt

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red is about but I had not done enough

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to quantify how many people exactly and

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so in this same report I mentioned blood

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batteries ran prevalence estimates just

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sample at all the sites how many people

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and you can build an estimate and on on

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any given day there are at least 300,000

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people men and children

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digging for cobalt with their bare hands
and pickaxes and shovels. 300,000 people

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on any given day. Now, it fluctuates by

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season a little bit, dry season, wet

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season. Of that 300,000,

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about 37%, so more than one out of

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three, are working in conditions we'd

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call absolute slavery.

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And almost 10% are kids. So, roughly

244
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30,000 kids on any given day.

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not in school, not learning, exposed to

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toxic work, toxic, dangerous mining with

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their hands uh up to their necks in it.

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And that's the bottom of the chain, you

249
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know, and people people

250
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,037
not only need to know that,

251
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but think hard about their own
personal choices in the context of that

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knowledge. You know, what do I mean by

253
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that? I mean, do you have to upgrade

254
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your phone every year? People often ask

255
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me what do I do? Okay, I accept the

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premise that the rechargeable lifestyle

257
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I live is facilitated by and built upon

258
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an enormity of human suffering uh of

259
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,117
those people over there. What do I do? I

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can't I can't fix that. And I say,
you're right. You can't. I can't. Uh but

261
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you can think about your personal choices.
And the first one is uh do you

262
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,677
have to upgrade the phone and the tablet
every year just because the tech company

263
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,597
tells you to? Because each time you do,
you're contributing to those demand side

264
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:10,557
forces. So if the phone still works,

265
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:15,357
just use it. Um the EV is a more
interesting question. You know, you

266
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,637
don't upgrade the EV, you either buy
one or you keep your internal combustion

267
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,077
engine car. Um, now EV companies will

268
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tell us their mining is done sustainably

269
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and the supply chain is audited and all
of that and and all of these horrors are

270
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,197
taking place in someone else's supply
chain. But the truth is it's all

271
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tainted. It's all coming out of the same

272
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,317
pot of tainted um contaminated human

273
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:46,077
degradation and environmental destruction.
The EV story is let's save the planet.

274
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,877
>> Yeah. >> And that's fine.
We need to save the

275
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:54,237
planet, but we can't save our piece
of the planet by destroying their piece of

276
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,557
the planet. >> Look,
I love the technology involved in

277
00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:58,237
EVs. [clears throat] I love I have a

278
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,797
Tesla. I love it. But there's also,

279
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:05,757
excuse me, there's also reality of um
brake dust. It's way more brake dust

280
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,077
with those things. And that's a big part
of the particulate uh pollution that you

281
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,357
get in large cities. >> Yeah. >>
Is brake dust. That stuff that you clean

282
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,877
off your wheel when you go to the car
wash, that stuff is in your lungs. If

283
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,677
you live in a big city, especially
like New York City, and you're walking

284
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,317
around, you are 100% breathing in brake

285
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,117
dust. And it's been proven that living

286
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,077
in polluted, heavily populated cities,

287
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,237
lowers your lifespan. And it's probably
one of the reasons. You're dealing with

288
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,757
a toxic element in the atmosphere that
you're breathing in every day. Whether

289
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,837
you like it or not, there's not
a thing you could do about it.

290
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,837
>> Yeah. Yeah. It I I I uh you know,

291
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,677
there's so many parts of the Eevee story
that we don't get fully told. You know,

292
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:47,037
break brake dust is certainly one.

293
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:48,637
>> Well, all cars give
off brake dust, just

294
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,797
to be really clear, but EVs are heavier.

295
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:52,717
>> They're heavier.
So, you you break more.

296
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,077
You have to break more. Yeah.
>> Yeah. You if that's right.

297
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,077
>> I think there is some ways around that.

298
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,597
And I think um one way to mitigate it

299
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,837
quite a bit, I believe, is carbon
ceramic brakes. Is that the case, Jamie?

300
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,357
Let's find out if that's absolutely true.
I've read that, but I want to make

301
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,437
sure that's really true. Uh, I know from
anecdotal experience that when you clean

302
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,037
your car, if you have carbon ceramic
brakes, there's almost no brake dust on

303
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,797
your wheels. It's a very different thing.
If you have regular steel brakes,

304
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,437
it just it for whatever reason leaves
more brake dust. I'm not sure why. We'll

305
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:30,397
find out in a second. >> Um,
but other than that, is there any

306
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,397
sort of novel material that can do it?

307
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,117
Here it goes. Carbon ceramic
brake systems can reduce brake wear

308
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,957
particulate pollution substantially
compared with conventional gray cast

309
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,557
iron rotors. But they do not eliminate
brake dust. The actual environmental

310
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,797
outcome depends on the complete friction

311
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:50,157
pair rotor and pad formulation
and on driving conditions.

312
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:55,117
>> Yeah. So it just explains what brake
dust is. And so it's it does help a lot

313
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,997
substantially, but it,
you know, doesn't eliminate it.

314
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,717
>> Yeah. >> And they're
more expensive. You know, if

315
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,197
you it's like a big upgrade. If you get
a car um like a lot of sports cars, if

316
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,637
you buy a Corvette, it allows you
to upgrade to carbon ceramic brakes. It's

317
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,877
very expensive, so very
few people do it. [snorts]

318
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,277
>> Well, there's there's certainly things

319
00:17:15,360 --> 00:17:20,317
we can and should be doing to mitigate
the environmental impacts of whether

320
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,357
it's an EV or even an internal
combustion engine. You know, I didn't

321
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:28,877
know about these brake pads. That's um
um it's worth it's worth people knowing

322
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:30,877
more about that. >> But then
you're going to have to find

323
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,837
carbon. Like, okay, now you got to get
carbon [clears throat] to get the carbon

324
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,277
ceramic. >> So, this is the thing. This
is the thing. There's always something,

325
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:42,157
>> right? And and you made this point
with Rizza, you know, it okay, cobalt, but

326
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,077
it's also the lithium. It's also the

327
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,717
nickel. It's all one of the biggest

328
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,277
lithium deposits now. And and people are
saying, "Okay, let's use less cobalt in

329
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,797
the batteries. Let's do do lithium iron
phosphate batteries. Let's do the solid

330
00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,677
state batteries." They always have
lithium in them. One of the biggest

331
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,757
lithium deposits now is is in the Congo

332
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:03,597
and it just started shipping under this

333
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,957
Chinese mining company um in June of

334
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:12,717
this year out of this deposit and the
conditions there I haven't been there

335
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,717
colleagues who've been up there
it's near a town called Manono

336
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,437
they're just as horrific and so when you

337
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,277
say all right we're done with cobalt

338
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:27,117
we're just going to do lithium iron
phosphate battery or you lithium table

339
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,757
salt battery, whatever.

340
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:30,397
>> Same deal.

341
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,317
>> Same deal. You know, so it's it's about

342
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,037
extending the horizon of our compassion

343
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:41,757
beyond our immediate circle and and

344
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,677
caring about everyone who's attached to

345
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,837
our life and our lifestyle. No matter

346
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,397
how t tangential or how far downstream

347
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,717
they might be, they're still brothers

348
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:57,437
and sisters. They still inhabit this earth
with us. They still live, breathe,

349
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,197
and have dreams just like we do.

350
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,677
>> And you could be them
if you were born there.

351
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,477
>> That's That's the thing. >> You
got lucky. We all got lucky. You and

352
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:09,117
I mostly got lucky. >> We got the roll
of the dice that was favorable.

353
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,037
>> And that's all it is.
And that's all it is.

354
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:12,957
>> That's what's hard to recognize.

355
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,997
>> This episode is brought to you by
the Farmer's Dog. You know what's pretty

356
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367
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372
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373
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It's hard. People don't want to believe.

374
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,757
That's why that whole pull yourself
up by your bootstraps ideology

375
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,357
that some people like to promote
like that's kind of crazy. In certain

376
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,077
circumstances it's accurate, but to put
that flat across the board for everybody.

377
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:27,677
>> No, there's people there's no boots.

378
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,437
They're barefoot. They don't they don't
have clean water. Like they don't have

379
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,757
nothing and no medical infrastructure.

380
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,197
And you're being forced to work in an
environment that 100% is going to poison

381
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:42,557
you to death. And we only make progress
when we extend our compassion out.

382
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,677
>> Right? >> When I say
progress, I mean moral

383
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,477
progress as a species on this earth.

384
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,437
>> That's the literally
the key. Like if if

385
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:56,077
you wanted to figure out like how
to make just global life better for all

386
00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,077
people. It's take whatever the third
world is and bring it up to the first

387
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,837
world. We should all want to do that.
If everybody wanted to do that, if

388
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,157
everybody wanted to deliver
infrastructure, education, medical

389
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,837
establishment, like where there's like
legitimate hospitals, like everything

390
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,597
that we have in the first world, if
that was all over the world, how much less

391
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:20,637
problems would there be? But the problem
is the resources, like the resources in

392
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,397
the Congo, whether it's oil or whatever

393
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,757
it is, they're worth so much money. And

394
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,157
the people that are in control of these
resources are extracting so much money

395
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,317
and they don't ever want to let that go.

396
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:37,037
>> No, they don't. It It's I run a thought
experiment with people sometimes and

397
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:39,677
when I teach a class, you know,
I haven't taught in a couple years, but

398
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,677
when I teach um I run a thought
experiment and it's exactly what we're

399
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,437
talking about here. So, let let's
say you were up in the sky in heaven,

400
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,197
whatever pre-birth state, whatever that

401
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,997
might be, and you don't know what roll

402
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,557
of the dice you're going to get. Am I

403
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,677
going to be born in a safe, loving,

404
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,637
upper middle class family in the West?

405
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,357
Am I going to be born in some war torn

406
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,357
poor uh part of South Sudan or whatever?

407
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,757
You know, you don't know. Okay. What

408
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,117
kind of what kind of world would you

409
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,397
hope the favorable people are trying to

410
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,197
pursue in the event that you're the one

411
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:24,237
you get the bad roll of the dice and
you'd say, "Man, I really hope that the

412
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,757
ones who get the good roll of the dice
will care about me. They'll see me. They

413
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,917
will feel some connection to me. They

414
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,797
will try to use their good roll of the

415
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,077
dice in a way that benefits me somehow.

416
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,037
Maybe they are part of some effort
to uh bring education, health care,

417
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:42,957
sanitation, whatever to my part of the

418
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,717
world. Uh and and have that connection

419
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,717
and extension of their compassion and
empathy towards me because we're all up

420
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,637
here in this pre-birth state recognizing
some of you are going there, some of you

421
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,317
going there. Let's all agree. All right,
those of you who end up in the good

422
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,357
place, you don't lose
sight of us, >> right?

423
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:02,717
>> You know, and I won't lose sight of you

424
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,477
in the event it's me. and and then we

425
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:10,797
get here and um we're just wound up in

426
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,877
our sphere and we lose a sense of human

427
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,437
connection. Isn't it partly because this

428
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:22,557
is really the first of a couple
generations but w with increasingly more

429
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,077
contact and understanding of the rest
of the world. Like if you went back a 100

430
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,757
years ago, people had virtually no
understanding of how things went on

431
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,917
anywhere else unless they had visited
them. And now a hundred years later

432
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,157
because of the very technology that

433
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,117
we're talking about which is also ironic

434
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,677
that's why we know so much about all

435
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,917
these places in the world and isn't the

436
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,157
problem also with elevating these places

437
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,037
and getting them infrastructure that one

438
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:51,277
of the best ways to do it cleanly is

439
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:56,317
nuclear power. Um but then they found
out that when you give people nuclear

440
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,477
power it's pretty easy for them
to convert it into weapons.

441
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,197
>> Okay. So there's there's
a lot to unpack. There's a lot to

442
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,837
>> unpack because we're trying to like
if we're going to be fair about a

443
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,277
discussion of why everything's [__]
>> One of the reasons why everything's

444
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:11,757
[__] is clearly because they don't
have infrastructure. They don't have

445
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,797
power. They don't have water that's
that's clean. They don't have good

446
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,077
education. They don't have all these
things. So if you wanted to like start

447
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,957
that and make it better, you would have
to give them power. So are you going to

448
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,637
burn coal? Are you what are you going to
do? Like there's only a few ways, right?

449
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:31,597
There's dams. You can get hydroelectric
power. um windmills and solar. Get the

450
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,637
[__] out of here. That's not gonna
that's not right. Not right now. Not

451
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,157
with current technology. It's not going
to power giant cities. So like what do

452
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,917
you give them? You give them nuclear
power. And this is what happened in

453
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,437
India, right? And this is what happened
in Pakistan. And they're like, "Oh,

454
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,117
look, we could turn this into a missile.

455
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,637
[__] each other up." >> It

456
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:51,597
so tricky.

457
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,157
>> It's tricky. And you know, you talk

458
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,077
about nukes, okay? And you know, we're

459
00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:59,437
at this point in this world where

460
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,997
there's this fever about who does and

461
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:07,277
doesn't have them. And let me tell you
one other thing. I've I've I've I've

462
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:08,797
learned since we last talked about the

463
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,677
Congo. Okay. I mentioned the the uranium

464
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:17,037
used to to drop uh Little Boy
and Big Boy on Hiroshima Nagasaki.

465
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:19,757
>> Fat Man. >> Fat Man.
Fat Man. Little Boy and Fat Man.

466
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:20,717
>> Yeah.

467
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,317
>> Um on Hiroshima Nagasaki. Okay. It came

468
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:29,117
came from a mine called Shinkalobu in
in the Congo. There was a meeting of the

469
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,757
Belgians and the Americans in Midtown
Manhattan and they said, "All right,

470
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,397
we're going to give you so much money
for that uranium and so on and so

471
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,837
forth." And um Congo has a lot of

472
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,197
uranium. All right, a lot of uranium.

473
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,717
And for the last 10 years, Western

474
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,117
intelligence agencies have been
trying to figure out how is China

475
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,037
growing its nuclear stockpile, stockpile
of nuclear warheads so fast because they

476
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,557
got no uranium. They're not getting it
from North Korea because they don't have

477
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,677
it either. Russia's not going to be
sending it to them. They're not going to

478
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,557
give teeth to their neighbor. Where are
they getting it from? And you talk to

479
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,757
people on the ground in the Congo.
Now there's and now there's some counter

480
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,997
intelligence looking into this. People

481
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:11,917
in the Congo have said, "Look, for the

482
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,437
better part of the last 15 years, every

483
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,837
one of these Chinese state-run mining

484
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,637
companies in the same tractor trailer
that's got the copper and the cobalt and

485
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,397
the nickel, they've got uranium on it,
too. And it's all headed over to

486
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,397
mainland China." And that's the answer

487
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,957
to this question of how did China jack

488
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,997
up its nuclear stockpile supply so fast

489
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,237
in the last 1015 years. Now, I can't
verify any of that. It's not like I've

490
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,357
done uranium investigations.
>> Look, it only makes sense. They have

491
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,717
complete control of the region.

492
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,077
>> It makes a lot of sense. >> There's
no way anybody would be able to stop them.

493
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,037
>> No one's going to stop them.
They control the ground. They control the

494
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,517
ground there. And

495
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,557
that's scary, you know, and and so when

496
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,717
you talk about do we give them do we use

497
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,557
nuclear power in that part of the world?

498
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,837
I mean, I don't think you want uh yellow

499
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,677
cake floating around that part
of the world, you know.

500
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,637
Um, >> does China have any human rights

501
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,717
organizations that are comparable
to the ones in the West?

502
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,797
>> Not really. Right. >> You know,
they may write stuff down on paper,

503
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,877
>> you know, >> but there's
not like >> they're not. No,

504
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,677
>> there's a I mean, there's a billion
people over there. You would think there

505
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,477
would be a certain percentage >>
like Red Cross type organizations. I

506
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,637
mean, >> we have some sense of what
they've done to the Weaguers.

507
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,397
>> Yeah, that's a that's a hard one
to figure out, right? It's a hard one to

508
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,077
figure out. We've got some general sense

509
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,797
of the forced labor camps um um uh

510
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,877
filled with weaguers

511
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,117
um doing solar panels and clothes and

512
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,357
all this [__] Um but and I haven't

513
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,277
looked into that directly, but I can I

514
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:53,037
can tell you what I've seen directly on

515
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:56,717
what they do in Africa and you know they

516
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,277
they don't treat people like people

517
00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:02,077
there. They don't see them, the

518
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,157
Africans, as people. They're in the way

519
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,077
of the loot they need. And they don't

520
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,157
even employ the African people there when

521
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,317
they come in with a mining project or a

522
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,117
construction project. They ship over

523
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,917
people from China to do the work and

524
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,957
then work them and then send them back.

525
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,917
And there's nothing by way
of human rights standards

526
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,037
when you're talking about Chinese
companies operating in Africa.

527
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:36,877
>> So this is a uniquely western thing.

528
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,277
>> This drive to have some basic human

529
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,997
rights standards. Yeah. Yeah. I mean
I would say so. I would say so. Now one

530
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,717
thing that's changed since you and I
talked is there's actually a US mining

531
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,117
company now operating in that part
of the Congo. There wasn't one for better

532
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,117
part of two decades.

533
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,997
And one of the mines which uh is owned

534
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,477
by um Dubai Middle Eastern guys

535
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,557
um part of the Trump administration
sort of peace for minerals arrangement

536
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,877
between President Shisha and the Trump

537
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,117
administration was mining access.

538
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,437
And so one concession uh was sold
to this US mining company. It's called

539
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,197
Virtuous Mining and they're run by

540
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,877
former military guys and they took over

541
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,877
a couple of copper cobalt concessions
in Lubmbashi and Koazi both sides of the

542
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,357
copper belt. That's just this year. So

543
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,437
within the last few months okay and I

544
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,837
haven't been there to look but I talk
to colleagues all the time and say look is

545
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,397
is is virtues are they doing things any

546
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,317
better? And the feedback I've gotten so

547
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,717
far is they seem to be uh improving

548
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,157
standards around artal mining. There's
still artisal mining, but improving

549
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,237
standards. >> When we say
artisal mining, you you went

550
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,277
into depth about this the first time we
talked, but we should just tell people

551
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,837
that that thing artisal sounds awesome.

552
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,197
It sounds like a great cup of coffee,
like fair trade. It's a nice

553
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,637
>> in a nice place, >> you know,
like someone's got a beautiful

554
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,037
ceramic cup they serve
you the coffee in. Yeah.

555
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,357
>> Artisal mining is pretty
much the opposite of that.

556
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,357
>> It it's the the games people play with

557
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,317
words, right? Uh no. So artal mining

558
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:20,477
means you've got mom, dad, and their kids
up to here in toxic grit and filth

559
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,277
digging. >> Yeah.
This is an artisal mind. The fact

560
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,317
that you can use that same word artisal
with this that you and you can with a

561
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:33,117
nice coffee shop is crazy.
>> That's crazy. That's So this is

562
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,677
you know I got in >> imagine
if you were learning English.

563
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,517
You're like, "What the [__] does artisal
actually mean?" Like, "How how do the

564
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,637
two things what >> like
this language is messed up."

565
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,837
>> Yeah. How how are these both artisal?

566
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,347
>> That's crazy.
>> How is my espresso and that artist?

567
00:30:48,430 --> 00:30:52,237
[laughter] >> For lack
of a better term, these minds

568
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,477
um it's all basically the poorest people

569
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:55,437
on earth.

570
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,477
>> Raw human labor. Uh it's tens of

571
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,397
thousands of people and there's kids
down there, too. Okay? You just can't

572
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,597
see in this massive. >> There's also
you've shown mothers with their babies.

573
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,877
>> Mothers with babies on their back.
So that's that's what the mining industry

574
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,997
calls artisinal. Okay. It's it's this

575
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,517
it's kids with 40 50 kilogram sacks of

576
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,437
cobalt um on their necks clamoring out

577
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:26,077
of a pit. Cobalt is toxic to touch.
It is toxic to breathe. All these kids get

578
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,237
respiratory distress, cancers. The women
get birth defects, congenal disease.

579
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,477
Here's a teenager with a baby. These are

580
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,877
all my photos, okay, that that found

581
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,357
their way onto the internet. That kid's

582
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,197
probably eight and she's probably 13 or

583
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,157
14 and she's got this baby. I remember

584
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,557
that Joe that that's in the hills above
Cambodia. That's a story I told you last

585
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,317
time where that's probably the closest I

586
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,117
came to getting shot was in this mining

587
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,397
area. It was almost all children run by

588
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,357
a militia um north of a town called

589
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,957
Kamov and it is all copper cobalt. It

590
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,117
all gets sold right into the industrial

591
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,357
supply chain. People need to accept this

592
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,477
truth. The kids don't dig cobalt going

593
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,637
to the moon. Okay, that cobalt all goes

594
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:19,277
into the formal supply chain through
militias and traders. All of it. What do

595
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,277
I mean by formal supply chain? I mean
the formal industrial mining companies

596
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,357
that then go and refine this stuff and

597
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,597
it ends up in your phones and cars and

598
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,557
tablets. So I was up there in those
hills and you're not supposed to be up

599
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,517
there. Like I wasn't supposed to be in
the place where there's 15,000 people in

600
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,397
that pit and these militia guys come

601
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,317
come barreling up the hill with AK-47s.

602
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,077
And I thought that was it for me. Uh I
mean this this is the story I told you

603
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,437
last time. I thought that was it.
I mean, they threw my backpack off my

604
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,597
back, shoved me to the ground, yanked
all my stuff out, demanded my phone to

605
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,517
see if I'd taken photos and videos and

606
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,797
so on. And the only thing that saved my

607
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,197
life, this this for people who are
interested in human rights research,

608
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,477
this is what's important.
You get local intel,

609
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,117
local colleagues, take their advice. The
only thing that saved my life that day.

610
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,237
So, one of my local colleagues said,
"Said, before you go to any of these

611
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,397
places, you got to get a stamp
from the governor's office on your visa

612
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,677
paperwork, and you take
that with you everywhere."

613
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,837
>> And that will convey
to any militia that

614
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,917
you're under the governor's protection,
and they're not going to [__] with you.

615
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,357
They won't they'll mess with you,
but they're not going to do. They're not

616
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:32,397
going to kill you.

617
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,317
>> Um, and I had to go get that stamp. I

618
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,397
had to persuade the governor of

619
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,917
Hotkatanga province that I was there not

620
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,077
to shame the Congo. I was seeking truth

621
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,397
that I think his people are being uh

622
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,477
exploited by the global north and this

623
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,877
whole tech um fever for rechargeable

624
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,277
stuff and he put his little stamp on it
and you know that was the only time I

625
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,797
met him, only time I saw him but I had
that stamp. So when I was up there and

626
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,757
and my stuff getting thrown around,
they had their guns pointed at me. And my

627
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,357
guide, his face went pale. And I was I
thought, "This is it. This is it for

628
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:14,477
Cara up on this hill, middle of nowhere."
And my guide just gestured and

629
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,077
I knew what he was what he was what he
was intending. And I found my folder on

630
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,957
the ground. I pulled that piece of paper
out and I showed them the stamp and and

631
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,317
then they just said, "Get out of here.

632
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,517
Just, you know, they let us go." So, uh,

633
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:32,397
when you go into conflict zones, you
have to have that kind of local advice.

634
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:33,917
Um, because it can mean the difference

635
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:39,117
between living and being shot and dumped

636
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,077
in some ditch where these little girls

637
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:47,997
with babies. That's the image
that needs to be in our

638
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,797
minds every time we >> How did you
get that image? Was it with a phone?

639
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,237
>> Yeah, it was with my phone. I had So,
those So, they started, you know, going

640
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,957
through my phone. They had me unlock it,
but I had all these images in a password

641
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,157
protected other folder. So, I just
showed them pictures of like, you know,

642
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:06,477
my my home, my daughter, my, you know,
stuff, just whatever. I had another

643
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,117
folder and they they they
didn't have the savvy, right?

644
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,517
>> They didn't know. So it like same like

645
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:17,437
that video of the 15,000 people,
you know, I just managed to do this.

646
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,037
>> Mhm. >> And tuck it
away and because that was

647
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,917
also controlled by militias uh that

648
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,437
particular site and and that that mine

649
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:28,957
is

650
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,597
classified industrial,

651
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,597
which means only heavy equipment

652
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,317
being used to source the copper and the
cobalt. And that mine is in the bottom

653
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,797
of the supply chains in the in the
disclosure documents of every tech and

654
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,237
EV company. It's one of the biggest
copper cobalt suppliers out of the

655
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,557
Congo. And you get in there and you say

656
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:55,117
this this is not industrial at all.

657
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,507
Nor is it baked bread and espresso.

658
00:35:57,590 --> 00:35:59,517
[laughter] This is hell on earth,

659
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,597
>> right? you know, this is this am I

660
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,117
transported back to Egyptian times and,

661
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,157
you know, raw brute slave labor being

662
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:10,877
made to build a pyramid in this case to

663
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,477
excavate a giant pit of of ore

664
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,517
is it's still I can still hear that the

665
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,837
clanging in that place and the shouting.

666
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,037
It's the ability that people have
to treat other people as if they're not

667
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,757
people. That's still shocking, you know.

668
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,077
And that brings me to your book because

669
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,077
uh your book is all about the Atlantic

670
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,877
slave trade and it's called the Zorg.

671
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,757
>> Yeah. >> And it's uh
a tale of greed and murder

672
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,477
that inspired the abolition of slavery.

673
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:45,997
And just imagine like those boats
carried people from pretty much that

674
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,237
same place >> or close to it.

675
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,877
>> Yeah. Same. No, that the this this

676
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,517
ship, you know what I learned writing
this book? The Zorg is the most

677
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,117
consequential slave ship that ever
crossed the Atlantic. There are more

678
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,077
than 40,000 slave ship voyages across

679
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,317
the three and a half centuries of the
slave trade that carted 12 and a half 13

680
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,637
million Africans. And if you need
to know about one of them, it's this one

681
00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:15,757
because it's the most important, the most
consequential. And the reason I say

682
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,117
that is it opens the whole world of the

683
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,237
slave trade in its journey ends in this

684
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,077
culminating act of brute inhumity

685
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,237
that sparked the first movement to

686
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,237
abolish slavery.

687
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,517
And it's that sequence

688
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,277
that is so vital for us to understand

689
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,037
historically. Uh people can't fix a

690
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,877
horror until they learn about it. And

691
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,677
the average person,
I've learned, is not evil.

692
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,517
Uh we may be generally self-interested
and worried about us and ours and so on,

693
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:56,797
but we're not evil. Uh and when we learn
about something wrong, we generally feel

694
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,757
something and want to do something about
it. And that's what happened. This was

695
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,517
the ship that told the whole world what

696
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,077
was happening in the slave trade. And a

697
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,957
small community, a faith-based moral

698
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,077
leaders said, "This is unacceptable.

699
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,397
this is beneath us. Uh, and we we're
going to devote our lives to abolishing

700
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,757
slavery. But the other thing that this
journey is, you know, we we grow up, you

701
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,517
grow up in America, you learn about
slavery. You learn about plantation

702
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,917
economy and how slaves were treated,

703
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,717
cotton, and so on.

704
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,437
But we don't learn the details of how

705
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,997
they got here

706
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,517
and how the first global economy was

707
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,357
born around the Atlantic slave trade.

708
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,757
how modern finance, banking, and

709
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,757
insurance was born through the slave

710
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:48,077
trade and the conditions that the

711
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,717
African people endured being carted

712
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,757
across the Atlantic. Um, and it's

713
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,997
essential to know this history because

714
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,517
it tells us why we are where we are.

715
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:04,077
Um, at this point in history and as a

716
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,517
moral or lack of moral species on this

717
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:12,237
earth because we do at times have these
periods of great inhumity toward each

718
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,957
other and the slave trade is one of them.
And I learned so much researching

719
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,877
this book and and and the feedback I get
from readers is, man, I knew slavery. I

720
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,437
had a sense, but I had no idea just how

721
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,997
horrible it was.

722
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,197
>> Do you the fact
that I mean does does it

723
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,597
dishearten you to know that essentially

724
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,117
the same thing is happening right now as

725
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,597
this book? Like in the Western world,
people don't believe that. You know, I

726
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,797
had a discussion the other day with
someone. He was talking about how we're

727
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,797
doing better today. We abolish slavery.

728
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,717
And I said, 'N no, we abolished slavery
right here, but there's more slaves on

729
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,757
earth now than there were during
the time of the Atlantic slave trade.

730
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,877
>> So we abolish slavery on paper.

731
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,077
>> We have a piece of paper that says

732
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,877
slaveryy's abolished, but in practice,

733
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,157
the the institution of oppressing,

734
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:04,557
subjugating, and extracting the labor of

735
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,797
someone uh persists and has evolved into

736
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:14,637
the modern era. Well, not only that, like
how many underage workers are working in

737
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:17,837
>> millions >> in this country
that are undocumented?

738
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,997
>> Yeah. Yeah.
I I mean, who knows what the

739
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,597
number is. Um but millions around the

740
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,557
world, tens of millions around
the world. Um but it's it's

741
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,477
this this history is important. History

742
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,797
is important because uh and this ship is

743
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,997
important uh because it it it it

744
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:39,917
reveals

745
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,317
the depth of our inhumity while

746
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,037
simultaneously showing us the capacity

747
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:50,637
for good in our nature because it did
spark that first movement to abolish

748
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:53,677
slavery. It >> and it
was faith-based leaders that were

749
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:54,957
doing this.

750
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,077
It was Yeah, it was it was it was it was

751
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,957
the Anglican Church leaders in the in in

752
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:02,877
the in the first movement to abolish

753
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,557
slavery was in England

754
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:11,517
and it was sparked directly by this ship.
Um and so people, you know, can

755
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,437
read the book and understand what
happened on this ship. But uh it it it

756
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:20,157
goes on its journey u picking up
Africans along the West African coast.

757
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:24,397
And I went to West Africa to see the old
forts and castles that are there. uh

758
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,637
that Europeans built to facilitate the

759
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:29,517
slave trade. They lined the West African

760
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:34,077
coast with a higher concentration
of fortifications than existed anywhere in

761
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,477
Europe. Little forts and castles and
dungeons to gather human beings. And so

762
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,157
Africans were marched from the inland

763
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:43,117
regions, sometimes a thousand miles.

764
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,397
Arab slave traders would raid and

765
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,677
ransack a village, grab people and start

766
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,997
marching them down to the coast and you
know trade along the way with house of

767
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,757
slave dealers and people would die.
Of course they're yolked at the neck and

768
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,637
tied and they many people didn't
survive a five, six, 800 mile march.

769
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:05,997
>> 800 mile march. >> Yeah.
There's a there's journal entries

770
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:10,237
I came across one one captain slave ship
captain named John Newton. John Newton's

771
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:11,997
a fascinating guy because he became an

772
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:17,117
abolitionist and a preacher and he wrote

773
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:22,317
hymns and probably the most famous
hymn he wrote was Amazing Grace.

774
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:26,157
>> Whoa. >> So Amazing Grace
is written by a slave trader.

775
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:28,637
>> Whoa. >> So John
Newton John Newton's from

776
00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:33,757
Liverpool. Liverpool was once
capital of the of the slave trade.

777
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,197
We think of Beatles when we think
Liverpool, you know, or the football

778
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,397
club, but it was once the dominant force

779
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,717
in the entire European
Atlantic slave trade, Liverpool.

780
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,357
And Newton was one of those captains. He

781
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,197
captained three slave ship journeys.

782
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,557
They called it the triangular trade.

783
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,077
And what that meant was is um ships

784
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,237
departed Europe, in this case Liverpool,

785
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,637
with tradable goods, mirrors, knives,

786
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:05,917
rum, brandy, cutlery, crockery, linens,

787
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:10,077
bandanas, whatever, cowery shells.

788
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,797
Took all that stuff down to Western

789
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,597
Africa where Europeans had built some
castles and forts. And those castles and

790
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:22,077
forts were involved in the business
of accumulating Africans.

791
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,797
Okay. And they held them in dungeons in
these forts. And you can go to a place I

792
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,397
went to it called Cape Coast Castle in

793
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,237
Ghana, which was headquarters of the

794
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,837
British slave trade. And there's a

795
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:38,157
massive dungeon in the bottom
of Cape Coast Castle.

796
00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:40,557
And Africans would be brought from

797
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,157
hundreds of miles up all the way up into

798
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:45,197
the Sahel, march down. A quarter to a

799
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:50,237
third of them didn't survive. And so
this this is uh this is the dungeon at

800
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,957
Cape Coast Castle. >> Wow. >> Okay.
And let me tell you something

801
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,197
about this place, Joe. So that that this

802
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,717
is uh man. So John Newton had in his

803
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,477
journal um brought on board today um

804
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,597
Africans marched I think 1,000 miles

805
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,037
from the inland. Okay. So they were

806
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:16,157
marched down and and eventually sold
to the Europeans who run these forts and

807
00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:19,677
castles all along the coast. The biggest
one was Cape Coast Castle. The British

808
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:24,077
and the Dutch had one just cannon shot
away called Elmina Castle. This is in

809
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:28,077
modern day Ghana and they were held
in the dungeon and you saw that picture of

810
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,717
the dungeon. So the dungeon was divided

811
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:35,277
between an area for men and an area
for women and children. There'd be at any

812
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,437
given time a thousand human beings in

813
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,957
there shackled down one shaft for light

814
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,717
and where they drop food and water and I

815
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:45,917
don't know if you Jamie if you had that

816
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,077
photo again you saw like a little narrow

817
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,157
groove down the floor of the dungeon and

818
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:55,837
there you see that you see that groove
down the floor of the dungeon and that's

819
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,557
supposed to siphon away their piss and

820
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,677
[__] and menstrual blood and so you can

821
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,797
imagine a thousand people in there Now

822
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,157
it always is full and clogged and rainy

823
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:10,077
season whatever. So eventually the whole

824
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,997
thing is covered in sludge of sewage.

825
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:18,797
Okay. And so they would spend months
down here, Joe. They would spend months

826
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,437
down here and many people didn't survive
that experience. So you're marched from

827
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,877
the from the inland regions hundreds of
miles. Didn't maybe didn't survive that.

828
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,037
If you did, you're in this dungeon.

829
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,677
You're spending months down
here and then eventually

830
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,757
there's the male slave dungeon entrance
at Cape Coast Castle. So eventually the

831
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,117
ships come from Western
Europe with all their stuff

832
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,757
and uh they come up to Cape Coast Castle.
They park in the roads. They

833
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,597
drop anchor. It's about a mile or two
offshore. They take a canoe up to the

834
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,477
castle and they meet the governor.
And the governor says, "Okay, you know,

835
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,237
let's let's do our business." And they
go into the dungeon and they bring out a

836
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,637
parcel of slaves. Some men, some women,
and some children. They first clean

837
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:02,397
them. Remember, they're covered in

838
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,877
sewage and filth. And they cover them in

839
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,997
palm oil to make them look healthy.

840
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,117
And the captain will say, "I'll take
this one, this one, this one." His

841
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,757
surgeon or doctor will inspect them,
open their mouths, check their lymph

842
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,597
nodes, make them cough, make sure
they're not sick and unwell, and and

843
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,437
then they purchase these slaves and then

844
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,437
brand them.

845
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,037
and they brand them. Put uh some palm

846
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,477
oil on their shoulder, brand them so
they know which one they bought because

847
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,277
they're going to go down to the next
fort, buy a few, buy a few, and then

848
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,717
when they've got all the several hundred
to load up the ship, they come back and

849
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,797
get them. When I went into the dungeon

850
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,997
at Cape Coast,

851
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:47,117
it's a kind of a cobbled floor. And then
I got to this one section, Joe, that was

852
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,837
smooth. And I had managed
to get a single guide

853
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:53,837
from the Ministry of Museums to take me

854
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,477
around. So before I wrote about it, I

855
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:01,277
wanted to see it and experience it.
And you can see it's kind of cobbly. And

856
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,557
then there's there's some sections
that are smooth. And they had one that was

857
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:08,397
just perfectly smooth. And I said,
"Why is this so perfectly smooth here?" He

858
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,437
said, "We left this just the way we

859
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,717
found it. This is the sedimented urine,

860
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,077
piss, [__] menstrual blood of the

861
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:22,317
people who were held here for centuries.

862
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,797
And we don't learn that, you know,
we don't learn that when we learn about

863
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,037
slavery. We don't learn about these

864
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:35,037
visceral details of what
people had to endure

865
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,077
before they even were put on the ship.

866
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,637
Now, let's talk about the ship, you

867
00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:44,157
know, which is a floating dungeon.

868
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:46,957
The the deep sea fairing vessel, Joe, is

869
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,437
a marvel of engineering.

870
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,357
It's a marvel of vision and ambition and

871
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:58,077
European genius. Oh,
Jamie's skipping ahead here, too.

872
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,317
>> The I jumped. Sorry.

873
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,037
>> The the visual imagery. We talk about

874
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:07,357
abolition. All right. We're going
to talk about the first use of a viral

875
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,197
image

876
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,677
which Jamie gave us a prelude to.

877
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,037
So the the deep seafaring vessel is it's

878
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,237
it's a testament to European genius and

879
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,077
ambition and vision and exploration.

880
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,877
There's no other way to look at it.

881
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,437
There was an earth that was here and

882
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,277
people were all in their pockets until

883
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,957
the Portuguese and the Spanish

884
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:39,357
developed a ship that
could cross an ocean.

885
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,117
And this was the early 1400s, the age
of exploration. You learn about this in

886
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,677
high school. Prince Henry the navigator

887
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,917
got his ships. We need to see the rest

888
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,757
of the world. What else is out there?

889
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,717
Maybe some riches. And the Portuguese,
they they started going south and they

890
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:01,037
hit the Canaries, Canary Islands off
the coast of West Africa. Shipwreck,

891
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:05,197
shipwreck, shipwreck. The winds were
just too intense, too violent, too

892
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,437
counterveailing. Their ships could not

893
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,477
handle it. Portuguese devented invented

894
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,797
a specific sail called a a latine rig.

895
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,237
All right? So, it's shaped like a

896
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,917
triangle. And rather than a traditional

897
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,557
square sail that gets pushed by the

898
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,677
wind, the Latin rig, you can swivel it

899
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,717
to function like a bird's wing. So you

900
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,917
can tack into the wind like a bird does.

901
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,317
And so the Portuguese are the first to

902
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,797
get past the Canary Islands,

903
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,197
1420s, 1430s. And and the caravl takes

904
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,677
Europeans south of the Canaries and they

905
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,757
get down to the west coast of Africa.

906
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:50,317
They they they round the Cape of Good
Hope and and by the end of the 15th

907
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:51,597
century the Portuguese have reached

908
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,037
India. It's

909
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,837
extraordinary

910
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,877
exploration triumph of navigation and

911
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:02,797
genius.

912
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,917
Then we get Christopher Columbus. Oh

913
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,557
man, Portuguese of they all the way over

914
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:09,997
to India and they had to go all the way

915
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,997
around Africa. Maybe there's a shortcut.

916
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,797
I'm gonna go that way.

917
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:17,997
Let [laughter] me go that way. It's got

918
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,757
to be a shortcut, you know. So, so he

919
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,717
goes west. I'm gonna find a better way.

920
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:30,397
He lands in the Bahamas. India. Indians.

921
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,397
All right. Okay. [laughter] You know, we

922
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,637
laugh, but I mean, he crossed the

923
00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:37,437
Atlantic first in in his ship. He got he

924
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:43,117
got here and and he starts the Spanish

925
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,517
reconoitering of this this part of the

926
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,757
planet. The pope pope is Alexander V 6

927
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,837
says, "Okay, you Spanish, you Portuguese,
you've kind of you've you're

928
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,677
starting to sus out the rest of the
world and I want you to get along. So,

929
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:02,157
I'm going to draw a line down
the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

930
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:06,077
And everything east of that line,
Portugal, that's for you. Everything

931
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:07,757
west of that line, Spain, that's for

932
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:11,437
you. So, Spain colonized the Americas

933
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:17,240
and Portugal colonized
Africa and India first.

934
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,757
Now, the Europeans

935
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,117
came across something during the

936
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:27,357
Crusades that captivated

937
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,317
their taste buds. They called it sweet

938
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:31,997
salt.

939
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,637
Today, we call it sugar. There's no

940
00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:37,677
sugar in Europe till the Crusades

941
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:39,917
because it doesn't grow there. It grows

942
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,797
in warm tropical places.

943
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,637
So 1494, the Pope divides the world and

944
00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:49,197
Spain and Portugal are now in tropical

945
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:53,277
places where you can grow sugar. And

946
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,117
>> that is so insane to hear, but makes

947
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:01,037
complete and total sense that people
didn't know about sugar until the 1400s.

948
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:02,397
Well, they came across it in the

949
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,437
Crusades, you know, 12,300 Europeans.

950
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:10,477
Like, oh, these Arabs have got
some sugar. It's nice, you know,

951
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:11,757
>> and they're getting it from cane.

952
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,477
They're just >> processing it.
Sugarcane. Yeah. Yeah.

953
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:19,277
Yeah. So, uh because it doesn't
grow in that part of the world.

954
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,957
>> So, what did they do to sweeten
things in Europe back then? Just honey.

955
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,757
>> Honey, berry juices. >> Wow.

956
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,837
>> Sugar. Sugar is another level, right?

957
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,597
>> Yeah. >> Sugar's another level. So,

958
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,517
so they divide the world and they start
setting up their sugar plantations. And

959
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,317
the Portuguese tap into existing systems

960
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,877
of slavery in Africa. Let's be clear
about that. Europeans didn't bring

961
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:44,957
slavery to Africa. There was slavery

962
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,237
there. They tap into those systems to

963
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,317
populate their sugar plantations along

964
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,077
the African coast with slave labor.

965
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,877
Now, the Spanish

966
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:01,357
decimate native populations. Okay.
The Mayans, the Aztecs, they get

967
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,997
here and through guns and disease and war
and they're decimating local populations.

968
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,757
>> Mayans. >> Mayans. >> Yeah.

969
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:12,957
>> So, they don't have a labor force.

970
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,157
So, King Charles in 1518 says, "Okay,

971
00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:20,317
Portuguese, you got these Africans.
Can you send some over here?"

972
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,477
And that's 1518. to the Portuguese.
He send he gives them a contract to bring

973
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,197
me 4,000 Africans to come work these

974
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,917
sugar plantations because they seem
to be doing a good job working on yours.

975
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:36,637
Thus begins the era
of the Atlantic slave trade.

976
00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:40,477
It was about bringing Africans over
to the Spanish colonies to work on the

977
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:45,037
sugar plantations.
And the Portuguese and the Spanish are

978
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:49,197
running this triangular circuit,
bringing goods down to Africa, buying

979
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,917
Africans, taking them across. There you

980
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,477
go. Um, dropping them in sugar

981
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:59,597
plantations, and then getting the output
of sugar labor, which is sugar, rum,

982
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,837
molasses, whatever, taking it back
to Europe, selling it, and then repeating

983
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,557
the triangle. >> How were
they so good at getting across

984
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,877
the ocean, but so bad at thinking
that they were in India?

985
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,637
That seems so insane. Like how
much of a map did they have of

986
00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:16,557
>> They had They had nothing west.

987
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,277
>> They had nothing west. Nothing west.

988
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,717
When when the Portuguese first started
going south, they had nothing of Africa

989
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,197
except the northern
coast from Roman times.

990
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:32,877
When you look at maps in the
in the 1400s, it's blank slate.

991
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,677
>> That's nuts.
>> So they they and they were first

992
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,517
attracted by gold, right? They heard
these stories, these mythical stories of

993
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,117
gold. And when the Portuguese got to

994
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,117
West Africa, they called it Costa

995
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,117
delamina deora, the coast of gold mines.

996
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,437
There was gold everywhere. The slave

997
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:54,317
trade came later because of sugar.
Uh then the British and the Dutch. And

998
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,317
>> so sugar was the start.
>> Sugar was the dominant force.

999
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:02,797
>> There was always slave labor. There was
always slave and slave trade. But that's

1000
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,877
when it really ramped up. That's when
the whole triangular trade, the Atlantic

1001
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:08,477
slave trade, the world's first

1002
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,757
globalized economy was born from sugar.

1003
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,397
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1021
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now at Best Buy. And sugar, it was like

1022
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,837
the fossil fuel of the day. It was the

1023
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:23,117
lubrication on which the global economy
functioned such as it was then the North

1024
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:24,797
Atlantic

1025
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:31,117
generating centuries
of generational wealth. So

1026
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:32,957
on the eve of the American Revolution,

1027
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,037
just to give you a sense, okay, so we're

1028
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:39,437
talking 1773, 1774,

1029
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,877
uh by this time the British are
the dominant force in the Atlantic slave

1030
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:45,837
trade and they became the dominant force

1031
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:50,317
uh taking over Caribbean islands.
Their prized was Jamaica,

1032
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:54,317
which became the largest sugar
plantation economy in the world at that

1033
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,517
time. Uh so on the eve
of the revolutionary

1034
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,757
war of course they had the 13 American

1035
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,757
colonies and they had
some Caribbean islands

1036
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:06,797
just to give you a sense of how

1037
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,237
important sugar was. If you take all the

1038
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,077
exports from all 13 American colonies

1039
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,357
and you take sugar from Jamaica,

1040
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,357
the value of those sugar exports from

1041
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:21,757
Jamaica was five times the combined

1042
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:24,397
value of all 13 exports of everything

1043
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,597
from all 13 colonies.

1044
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:31,677
Wow. So sugar generated

1045
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,157
enormous wealth for Western Europe. And

1046
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:37,277
so thus the slave trade persisted and

1047
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:41,917
persisted. Are any of the companies
that were making sugar back then, are they

1048
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:43,437
still around?

1049
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,877
>> Uh, not that I'm aware. No. I mean, uh,

1050
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,757
it's the sugar sugar, the way sugar is

1051
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:54,077
made today, of course, is is different
than these slave plantations that were

1052
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:58,157
erected by first Portugal and Spain,
then later the British and the Dutch.

1053
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,037
So, the Zorg is actually a Dutch slave

1054
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:05,277
ship, and it set sail around uh in

1055
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,437
October 1780. So, we're in the heart of

1056
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:11,437
American Revolutionary War and the

1057
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:14,717
British had been the dominant force of
the slave trade. So, remember I told you

1058
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:16,957
we're in the dungeon, okay? And the

1059
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:18,957
slave captain comes around and he's

1060
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,997
bartering for these people and he spends

1061
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:25,597
a couple of months acquiring Africans in

1062
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,037
this castle, this fort, this place,
brands them, and then eventually he

1063
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:33,757
loads up his ship with, depending on the
size of the ship, three, four, five, six

1064
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,597
Africans. and loads his
food and water and he has

1065
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,357
to cross the Atlantic.
What's called the middle passage

1066
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:43,677
and the design of these ships, the

1067
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,237
design of a slave ship was specific,

1068
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:50,077
okay? Uh designed for human cargo.

1069
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,957
The bottom was the food and water
and then they had what's called the tween

1070
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:57,437
deck. And all right, Jamie, you can
you can throw up that photo now. We're

1071
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,557
ready. >> All right. So,
here you've got the tween

1072
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:02,637
deck. All right. This is the schematic.

1073
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:04,637
And this this is an important schematic.

1074
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:09,357
This is the Brooks slave ship out of
Liverpool. And you see the bottom of the

1075
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,797
tween deck. The shipmaster is showing
you how to line up the Africans. They're

1076
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:16,237
given 16 inches of space each

1077
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:18,637
like the to quote John Newton who we

1078
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,357
talked about like books on a shelf.

1079
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:25,197
They're to be entered
and stowed like books on a shelf.

1080
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:28,317
>> So each human is allotted
16 inches of space.

1081
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,517
>> Yeah, that's right. Now, why are they

1082
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:35,837
laying down? Okay. So, you're lining
them all up, filling up every available

1083
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,317
possible piece of space. And then

1084
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:40,157
there's a second level here where you

1085
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,997
see them around this horseshoe. So, they

1086
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,837
built a partition. You can see
at the bottom left there, they built a

1087
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,317
partition so that they could maximize

1088
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,837
the cargo, the human capacity cargo of

1089
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,797
this vessel. So, you can't sit upright.

1090
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:00,717
you're shackled down, laying down, and
then there's a partition built and then

1091
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,517
there's another level of people like the

1092
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,557
the overhead bin space. Okay, you're

1093
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:11,197
just lining these people up and they're
lined up like this uh for two months to

1094
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,197
cross the Atlantic.

1095
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:18,637
And you may ask yourself,
what happens if you're seasick?

1096
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:22,637
What happens if a woman has her period?

1097
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:26,637
Some women gave birth in these conditions.

1098
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:28,077
What happens if you have to just go to

1099
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:30,637
the bathroom?

1100
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:34,317
So, they put buckets,

1101
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,997
distributed them along the uh what's

1102
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:42,077
called what they call the tween deck,
this cargo here. And if you needed the

1103
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,917
bathroom, you had to try and get to that
bucket with your chained partner, your

1104
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,717
chained two 2 by two. And of course, you

1105
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:50,877
never made it in time. And the ship is

1106
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,757
tossing and turning. And so in a matter

1107
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:56,077
of just a few days or a week, this

1108
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:59,757
entire deck is covered in in human piss

1109
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:03,277
and [__] and blood and vomit uh and

1110
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:05,037
misery.

1111
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:10,397
And that's for the two
months of the crossing.

1112
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,117
They don't teach us this, Joe.

1113
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,397
They don't teach us this part of it. So,

1114
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,917
here's a here's a shipmaster telling you

1115
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,917
how you can maximize the profit in the
Brooks slave ship that he's building for

1116
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:30,317
the Brooks Liverpool family
and line these people up.

1117
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:33,117
Now, they're brought up uh in the

1118
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:36,237
morning and dowsted with seaater and

1119
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,037
given a little bit of food and half pint

1120
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:43,357
of water to drink. uh the men are kept
in the front of the ship and the women

1121
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:44,957
and children in the back and they built

1122
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,917
a barricade down the middle to keep the

1123
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,477
men on one side because

1124
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:55,277
um you can imagine let's say you're one
of these Africans. You got that roll of

1125
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,037
the dice.

1126
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:59,677
You uh you're going to try to do

1127
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,397
anything you can to get control of that

1128
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:04,317
ship.

1129
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,677
And so slave insur insurrections were a

1130
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,717
common effort at resistance.

1131
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:13,357
And so the Europeans built a barricade

1132
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:16,077
down the middle of every slave ship so

1133
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:20,557
that if somehow the slaves managed
to revolt, they would quickly get to the

1134
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:24,397
back, the stern side, where they could
still control the ship. They had cannons

1135
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,117
mounted on the barricade to suppress the

1136
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,917
insurrection.

1137
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:34,397
>> They would shoot a cannon into their
own boat. It was either that or lose the

1138
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:39,997
ship. And usually a couple of shots
would call the insurrection.

1139
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:43,117
Now, you had to punish
the insurrectionist. And I'm telling you

1140
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:47,037
this because captains wrote about all
this stuff. They they wrote about this.

1141
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,397
And then there was one captain out
of Liverpool who said, "I find that the

1142
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:55,117
punishment for an insurrection that
works best to ensure that there's not

1143
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:59,597
another one is if you take one of the
insurrection leaders, chop him to pieces

1144
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,917
while he's alive, and distribute the
pieces to the other slaves." This seems

1145
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:08,600
to quell any further
effort at insurrection.

1146
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:10,957
Horror.

1147
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,357
Just horror.

1148
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:16,957
Now they'd be whipped

1149
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:22,040
and you can imagine what
happened to women and girls.

1150
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:26,957
Uh one slave captain said um sailors

1151
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:29,517
gratify their passions bruteike in front

1152
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:32,477
of the in front of the others with girls

1153
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,840
not 10 years old. You know people

1154
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:40,397
there were no laws on that ship. It was

1155
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:43,197
in a moral abyss.

1156
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:45,837
out in the middle of the ocean.

1157
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:49,837
And so in the case of the Zorg,
they're taking these Africans across the

1158
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,117
Atlantic.
And this is the kind of stuff that

1159
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:57,357
happens. There's an insurrection. Uh
that's one form of protest. Another form

1160
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:00,077
of protest is a hunger strike. I'm not

1161
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:02,717
going to eat.

1162
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,757
I'll just die. I'd rather die. If you've

1163
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:10,237
already survived the march from the
inland, lived in the Cape Coast Castle

1164
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:14,157
dungeon for a few months
in your own [__] and piss

1165
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:19,197
and then you're stuck in the ship like
I don't know where this is going, but I'm

1166
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:22,157
going to stop eating. I'd rather be dead.

1167
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:25,117
The Europeans had a tool for that called

1168
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,717
the speculum orus. And it was initially

1169
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,477
a device used to pry open jaws when you

1170
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,397
had lock jaw.

1171
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:37,037
The slave ship captains got some of

1172
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:42,397
these and if you didn't want to eat,
they jammed it in your mouth, forced it

1173
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:46,557
open, and shoved the food down your
throat, cracking probably half your

1174
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:50,957
teeth and lacerating your tongue in the
process, and then others would then fall

1175
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:56,157
in line, and that's the end of the
hunger strike. So the the level of

1176
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:57,837
barbarity taking place on these ships

1177
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,877
that people had to endure

1178
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,837
is heart-wrenching.

1179
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:05,757
Uh but it's important for us to come to

1180
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,397
terms with this historically

1181
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:11,757
so we understand what we're capable of.

1182
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:14,397
Uh and how to keep this kind of inhumity

1183
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:16,077
from happening again. And that gets us

1184
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,437
to the to the glimmer of hope from all

1185
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:23,597
this. So this ship crosses the Atlantic.

1186
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:26,237
uh it was a Dutch ship, okay, in the

1187
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:28,717
midst of the American Revolutionary War

1188
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:33,277
and everybody was using the American re

1189
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:35,197
revolutionary war as a chance to get

1190
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:38,317
payback on the Brits because the Brits

1191
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,597
were the power of the day and uh the

1192
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:45,357
French, the Spanish, the Dutch with the

1193
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,837
British Navy stretched thin trying to

1194
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:50,317
fight off the Americans, they use this

1195
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:55,517
as an opportunity to pick off some ships
there. Oh, Barbados is unguarded. Let's

1196
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:59,037
go take Barbados, you know. And so
the the Brits are fighting everybody at

1197
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:01,997
once. And their response to this was,

1198
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:03,757
"Okay, anybody with this ship, you are

1199
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:07,437
hereby given approval to be a pirate.

1200
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:11,597
Just go pirate the hell out of anybody
you see with a Dutch flag, a French

1201
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:16,317
flag, Spanish flag, any flag, American
flag. Just go pirate them to hell. We

1202
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:17,837
need help. Our navy can't handle

1203
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,797
everything." So, British take to the

1204
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:26,397
seas as pirates. So, a British pirate
ship captures this Dutch ship off the

1205
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:27,757
coast of Africa.

1206
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:30,557
>> Whoa. And it already had a couple

1207
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:33,517
hundred slaves in it. This British

1208
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:35,197
pirate,

1209
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:39,837
Captain William Llewellyn of HMS Alert,

1210
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:43,117
captures the Zorg off the coast of

1211
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:46,397
Liberia and finds two other Dutch ships

1212
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:50,317
and takes them over to Cape
Coast Castle headquarters.

1213
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,837
And he looks at the other captains there,
British captain, says, "Look, I

1214
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:57,597
got some Dutch prizes here with some
slaves and there's some gold and ivory.

1215
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:59,677
I'm I'm I'm auctioning this stuff

1216
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:01,197
today."

1217
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:05,597
and uh a Liverpool captain named Hanley

1218
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:07,197
who's captain of a ship called the

1219
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:10,477
William. I'll take that one. I'll take

1220
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:14,397
the Zorg and everything in it. So, they

1221
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:19,277
didn't have Venmo and cash and all
that back then. So, you write up an IOU.

1222
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:23,197
It was called a bill of exchange. So,
Hanley gives a bill of exchange in the

1223
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:27,357
name of his slave merchant creditor,
a Liverpool wealthy guy named William

1224
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:31,277
Gregson. He says,
"You just take that to Greggson

1225
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:33,437
for this agreed upon fee. I'll take the

1226
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:35,597
Zorg." And so now he's got a two for

1227
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:39,837
one. Okay. So he takes half his crew and

1228
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:43,037
he sticks it on the Zorg uh and names

1229
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,757
his the doctor of his ship to be captain

1230
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:48,477
of the Zorg. And he says, "You fill up

1231
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:51,357
the rest of the cargo and meet me in

1232
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:53,837
Jamaica."

1233
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:57,597
And and so the captain does that. Um he

1234
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:02,317
loads up his ship. He overloads it. Um

1235
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:04,157
should have been no more than about 300

1236
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:06,637
slaves loaded into a ship the Zorg size

1237
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,997
which was about a 100 ton ship. He loads

1238
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:16,397
440 Africans into it and he picks up a

1239
01:08:16,480 --> 01:08:20,797
stranger on the West
African coast. You remember

1240
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:24,717
I told you these forts
and castles all had governors.

1241
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:29,037
They come down from Europe and their job
is to run the castle and barter for

1242
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:30,557
slaves and so on. That's how the

1243
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:33,437
machinery worked. [snorts]

1244
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:38,157
And these guys were just dumb.

1245
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:40,397
You read about them. They're just a

1246
01:08:40,480 --> 01:08:43,757
bunch of incompetent fools who come run

1247
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:48,077
these castles and forts and they're
always arguing and bickering and writing

1248
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:51,437
letters back and forth to each other
like some teenagers and oh, you know,

1249
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,317
you did this and you did that and then
they're writing to their bosses back in

1250
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:55,837
England and oh, you know, he did this

1251
01:08:55,920 --> 01:09:00,957
and it's it's like a soap opera. And the

1252
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:02,877
Zorg is going by, he's going to another

1253
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:06,397
fort uh on the Gold Coast, Ghana, uh

1254
01:09:06,480 --> 01:09:08,557
which had a slave auction room called

1255
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:13,197
Anumabu, the fort at Anumabu. And the

1256
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:16,477
governors decide to kick out
the governor of Anumabu that day because

1257
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:17,837
they just can't stand him. His name is

1258
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:20,317
Robert Stubs. He's just a scoundrel and

1259
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:23,597
he's just a wretch of a human being. And

1260
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:25,357
they kick him out on the same day that

1261
01:09:25,440 --> 01:09:27,677
the Zorg is passing by. So Stubs takes

1262
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:31,357
refuge on the ship

1263
01:09:31,440 --> 01:09:35,357
and eventually the ship is loaded
with slaves and it's making its way across

1264
01:09:35,440 --> 01:09:37,917
the Atlantic

1265
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:40,877
and the captain gets sick and he can't

1266
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:43,837
run the ship and

1267
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:46,237
he's supposed to appoint his first mate.

1268
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:48,557
That maritime protocol first mate takes

1269
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:53,197
over. For some reason he appoints Stubs.

1270
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:56,957
>> Oh my god. And Joe, you can't make like

1271
01:09:57,040 --> 01:10:00,557
you had a nice conversation with um

1272
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:03,037
Taylor Sheridan, you know, I love his

1273
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:06,157
shows. If Taylor Sheridan were to write

1274
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:08,957
Robert Stubs as one of his bad guys,

1275
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,437
people would say, "Get out of here, man.

1276
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:14,637
Nobody is that pure, bad, stupid, evil,

1277
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:18,477
awful. There's got to be some nuance
to this character. We don't accept that."

1278
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:23,437
Sometimes people are just bad, awful,
horrible people. And this guy was one of

1279
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:27,597
them. He takes over
the ship and he doesn't

1280
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:32,157
know what he's doing and the ship
gets off course. Now, the thing about

1281
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:37,277
crossing the Atlantic
is there's no pit stops.

1282
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:41,117
The food and water you have when you
leave Africa is the food and water that

1283
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:43,197
has to last you until you reach the new

1284
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,157
world, the other side.

1285
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:50,317
And if you get off course or delayed or

1286
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:52,637
get caught in a storm,

1287
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,757
uh you might be in trouble.

1288
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:57,997
And this is what happens with the Zorg.

1289
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:01,517
Stubs is leading them off course.

1290
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:06,157
They uh should only need two months to

1291
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:09,757
go from West Africa to Jamaica. Every

1292
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:13,997
decent captain can get his ship
across the Atlantic in two months.

1293
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:17,917
And you expect about a 15% mortality
rate on the Africans. They will get

1294
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:22,397
dysentery because they're living
in their own piss and [__] and they will

1295
01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:26,157
take their own lives and they will do
things. You you accept about a 15% loss

1296
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:29,917
of life. People start dying.
The ship is off

1297
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:33,757
course. It's been two months, been
two and a half months. We get to three

1298
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:35,037
months and they don't know where they

1299
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:39,277
are. They finally sight tobago at the

1300
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:43,837
far eastern edge of Caribbean ocean
Caribbean Sea. And so they have a sense,

1301
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:47,997
okay, Jamaica's 10 days that way. Let's
do a quick water check, make sure we got

1302
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:52,317
enough because we've already been quite
delayed. And they do a check of the

1303
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:56,317
water and it seems that they
have enough to get to Jamaica.

1304
01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:57,997
Now, the fascinating thing about sea

1305
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:00,637
navigation at that time, Joe, is you can

1306
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:05,757
tell latitude very easily.
You get your sex, you line it up, you

1307
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:07,197
can tell how many degrees north or south

1308
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:11,037
of the equator you are. Longitude

1309
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:15,677
was a harder measurement
to calculate. It's

1310
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:17,117
essentially you're trying to measure the

1311
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:19,597
rotation of the Earth and your position

1312
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:23,037
on it. And

1313
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:26,077
for most of human history,

1314
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:27,917
the largest

1315
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:30,077
cause of death on a ship, a deep

1316
01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:33,597
seafaring vessel, was a shipwreck caused

1317
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:36,877
by botched longitude. It's not scurvy.

1318
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:39,437
It's not piracy or whatever. It's I

1319
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:41,357
thought I was there, but I'm actually

1320
01:12:41,440 --> 01:12:47,197
over here and I just ran into an island
and got a shipwreck and everyone's dead.

1321
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:50,077
You want to know how
they measure longitude?

1322
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:52,797
It's called dead reckoning.

1323
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,037
And what you're supposed to do is you

1324
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:58,957
have a log and a rope and you have knots

1325
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:01,917
tied at regular intervals. And every six

1326
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:04,877
hours you need to throw the rope. You

1327
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:06,957
throw you throw the log into the into

1328
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:09,197
the water and you hold the rope in your

1329
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:12,317
hand and you you count how many knots

1330
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:15,357
pass through your hand in a 60-second

1331
01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:17,757
period. And that gives you a speed in

1332
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:21,357
knots or nautical speed.

1333
01:13:21,440 --> 01:13:26,077
And you do that every six hours.
And that gives you a sense of your speed.

1334
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:29,917
And you plot that against direction. And
you you can then calculate how far east

1335
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:34,557
or west you are of your starting point
and you enter that in your log book

1336
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,837
because of the log you just threw in the
ocean. So this is where the terms come

1337
01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:41,837
from. >> That's crazy.
So people would now let's

1338
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:43,757
just say you're not too good at this.

1339
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:46,157
every error in measurement you make is

1340
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:49,597
accumulating on the previous one and you

1341
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:53,917
can end up hundreds of miles off course

1342
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,437
and suddenly an island's ro upon you and
you crash into it and that's the end of

1343
01:13:57,520 --> 01:14:00,637
that. So for most of the deep sea

1344
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:03,517
fairing period people were just all

1345
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:07,277
right I think I'm 15 degrees west of

1346
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:10,557
where I was yesterday. Let me write that
down in my log book. Let me throw in the

1347
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:13,277
rope. Okay, [snorts] this is this is

1348
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:15,837
this was the level of uh uh measurement

1349
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:17,917
we're talking about.

1350
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:23,197
So, they site Tobago. They know where
they are at that point and they took way

1351
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:25,837
too long to get there, but they know
where they are. So, they know Jamaica is

1352
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:29,277
1,150 mi north by Northwest.
>> And they keep going.

1353
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:34,077
>> So, they had to get to Jamaica.
That was their destined port. Okay.

1354
01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:35,997
So, they keep going. They keep going.

1355
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:38,637
They keep going. And

1356
01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:40,557
not sighting land. not sighting land.

1357
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:43,837
Then on day 10, so about the right time,

1358
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:48,077
they sight land. Now, they have to make
sure it's Jamaica because what's right

1359
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:49,757
next to Jamaica to the west, it's an

1360
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:53,117
island called Hispanola, which was half

1361
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:56,077
Spanish, half French, would later become

1362
01:14:56,160 --> 01:15:00,477
Dominican Republic and Haiti.
And that's enemy territory because we're

1363
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:01,277
in the middle of the American

1364
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:04,637
Revolutionary War. And uh we can't stop

1365
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:07,837
there. So, we need to make sure. So

1366
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:11,037
Stubs drops in his rope and his thing

1367
01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:13,277
and he says, "Oh, this is 70 degrees

1368
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:16,077
west. That's Hispanola. Jamaica's the

1369
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:18,877
next one. Next one down." So they keep

1370
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:23,277
going. Should have just been one day,

1371
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:25,917
two days, three days. Turns out it was

1372
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:27,917
Jamaica.

1373
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,397
And they've gone three days past their

1374
01:15:30,480 --> 01:15:33,357
destination. And now they're completely

1375
01:15:33,440 --> 01:15:35,917
out of water.

1376
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,117
and to turn around and beat into the

1377
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:42,637
wind. That three days west is going to

1378
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:49,437
take them 10 days to get back because
they have to go into the wind. Now,

1379
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:53,597
at this point, they started with half
a crew of 17. Should have had a crew of

1380
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:55,757
30. Remember, Hanley divided his crew in

1381
01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:58,877
half. So, they're down to just 11 guys.

1382
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:01,677
And the captain is sick to the point of

1383
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:04,237
lunacy. Stubs is running the ship and

1384
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:06,637
they've already lost about 70 Africans

1385
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:10,717
to dysentery and scurvy.

1386
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:14,920
So they have and they're out of water.

1387
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:19,757
So they make a decision.
In order to survive the 10 days to get

1388
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:21,677
back to Jamaica, we have to reduce the

1389
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:24,877
amount of water consumption on board.

1390
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:27,437
And their solution to doing this is to

1391
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:31,437
start throwing the Africans overboard.

1392
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:34,957
So across three days they start with

1393
01:16:35,040 --> 01:16:37,757
women and children living breathing

1394
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:40,477
human beings sick and unwell and all

1395
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:45,197
that including one baby.

1396
01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:50,957
They throw 130 to 140 Africans overboard

1397
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:56,317
into the sea to drown and their
bones are still down there.

1398
01:16:56,400 --> 01:16:57,917
Okay.

1399
01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:00,957
uh and then they reached Jamaica

1400
01:17:01,040 --> 01:17:05,597
with a 50% mortality rate when you
include the number of people who died

1401
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:06,797
and the number of people they threw

1402
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:10,797
overboard. So half the slaves gone.

1403
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:12,957
They dock, they sell the slaves, they

1404
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:17,997
sold them through a process called
the scramble. The scramble is a slave mer

1405
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:22,237
slave broker says, "Okay, I got slaves
on this ship. Um let's agree on a

1406
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:24,877
price." The price agreed was £36. That's

1407
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:29,117
about $10,000 today. And the buyers, all

1408
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:33,277
the slaves are loaded into a pen.
They are covered in palm oil so they look

1409
01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:35,197
healthy. Most of them have dysentery so

1410
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:37,917
they use oak to plug their anus for the

1411
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:41,277
for the portion of the sales and you run

1412
01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:43,037
in with a rope and you rope off the ones

1413
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:46,397
you want and you gather them and then

1414
01:17:46,480 --> 01:17:50,957
you you pay you pay the the brokers
and the slaves are taken off to the

1415
01:17:51,040 --> 01:17:53,197
plantations. Now that should have been

1416
01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:55,437
the end of the story. We should not know

1417
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:58,797
what happened on this ship

1418
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:02,077
except for greed.

1419
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:04,717
So the owner of the Zorg, the one who

1420
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:07,037
wrote that I owe you and he got news.

1421
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:09,357
Oh, Hanley, you got a two for one. Yes,

1422
01:18:09,440 --> 01:18:11,357
here you go. Here's your money to the

1423
01:18:11,440 --> 01:18:14,797
pirate and let me insure

1424
01:18:14,880 --> 01:18:17,917
my new ship. So every slave ship that

1425
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:22,040
crossed the Atlantic was insured.

1426
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:24,797
Insurance was born out of the slave

1427
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:27,757
trade.

1428
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:31,997
>> It costs you 7
$800,000 equivalent today

1429
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:35,197
to kit out a slave ship. All the

1430
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:39,117
supplies, the crew, salaries, and all
that. So, it's a large amount of upfront

1431
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:43,437
capital. And you could
have a shipwreck, you

1432
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:45,517
could have a pirate take your ship. Uh,

1433
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:47,997
in which case it's all lost.

1434
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:51,437
So, there was a chap in London named

1435
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:53,757
Lloyd.

1436
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:56,877
Lloyd hung out at this coffee shop and

1437
01:18:56,960 --> 01:19:01,197
he had an idea. Said, "Okay, you guys

1438
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:04,477
give me a small percent, let's call it a

1439
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:07,197
premium of the value of your ship and

1440
01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:09,517
your cargo,

1441
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:12,957
and if you lose it all, I'll pay you an

1442
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:16,637
agreed upon value back. But if you don't

1443
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:19,437
lose it all, I keep the premium.

1444
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:22,557
And Lloyd's Coffee Shop, which then

1445
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:25,997
later became Lloyds of London,

1446
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:27,997
was the premier insurance underwriter

1447
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:30,877
for slave ships. And they had standard

1448
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:34,637
contracts that they wrote wrote up.

1449
01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:39,677
And the slave trade blew up this business
because every slave captain and

1450
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:41,357
slave merchant wanted to ensure the

1451
01:19:41,440 --> 01:19:45,277
slave the ship and all the cargo.

1452
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:48,317
So Gregson had taken out an insurance

1453
01:19:48,400 --> 01:19:54,920
contract for the ship and and
his Africans 30 pounds ahead.

1454
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:59,037
When he learns that his ship lost half

1455
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:01,197
its cargo,

1456
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:04,797
he decides to make an insurance claim.

1457
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:08,317
And most insurance claims at the time

1458
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:10,797
were if slaves died in an insurrection,

1459
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:15,437
you can get compensated. But if they die
because of natural causes or they kill

1460
01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:17,037
themselves, you don't get compensated.

1461
01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:20,797
That's in the contract. So, no one had
ever said, "Well, what happens if you

1462
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:24,957
throw them overboard? Do you get
compensation then?" And so, Gregson's

1463
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:29,357
going to test this. And he tells
the insurance, "Uh, I want my compensation

1464
01:20:29,440 --> 01:20:33,997
for the 200 slaves." And the insurance
company said, "Man, that's 50% mortality

1465
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:38,637
rate. That's let me check my actuary
table here. No, that's not standard.

1466
01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:40,957
We're not going to pay."

1467
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:43,997
So he files a lawsuit. This is how we

1468
01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:46,317
learn about what happened. Nobody knew,

1469
01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:49,277
Joe, what was happening on these ships.

1470
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:53,197
Remember I told you King Charles 1518
when that's when it all started. We're

1471
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:58,477
in 1780. So two and a half centuries
this has been machines been running.

1472
01:20:58,560 --> 01:20:59,917
Nobody knew what was happening on the

1473
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:01,757
ships except the captains themselves and

1474
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:05,837
the crew. So Gregson files a lawsuit.

1475
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:09,437
That lawsuit ends up in front of the
chief justice of the entire British

1476
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:12,157
Empire, the Earl of Mansfield, Titanic

1477
01:21:12,240 --> 01:21:16,717
figure. And the court
cases at that time, there

1478
01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:20,237
weren't court houses and all. It was held
in the Guild Hall, the London Guild

1479
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:23,277
Hall. And this is so fascinating, Joe,

1480
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:26,077
because it shows you how the whole

1481
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:28,877
course of history can bend toward

1482
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:31,197
goodness through the conscience of even

1483
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:33,437
one person,

1484
01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:36,717
just one. So the trial is had. We don't

1485
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,437
have a transcript of this trial,

1486
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:43,837
but we know that the slave merchants won.
Judgment was for the slave

1487
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:45,117
merchants. You want to know who the only

1488
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:48,957
witness was? Stubs.

1489
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:52,797
Stubs is the only guy surviving.
He comes in and he says, "Yeah, yeah, we

1490
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:56,877
were out of water. We had absolutely
no choice. We had to throw the Africans

1491
01:21:56,960 --> 01:21:59,677
overboard or we all would have died. It

1492
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:01,677
was absolutely necessary. And because

1493
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:05,437
it's necessary, insurance has to answer.

1494
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:07,917
Yeah, that makes sense. All right, you

1495
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:11,037
guys please pay Gregson 30 ahead for his

1496
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:15,357
Africans. That should have
been the end of it. But

1497
01:22:15,440 --> 01:22:19,277
there was one person in the room that day
with a conscience, with a heart, and

1498
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:22,077
he's watching this trial take place, and

1499
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:24,397
he's wondering, "Wait a minute, why is

1500
01:22:24,480 --> 01:22:27,757
no one talking about murder?

1501
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:32,077
He just said they threw 130 human beings
overboard to drown. And they're talking

1502
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:35,677
about insurance compensation, but no
one's talking about murder. So, this

1503
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:38,557
person writes an anonymous letter to the

1504
01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:41,677
largest newspaper in London asking this

1505
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:45,677
question. I just saw this. No one's
talking about murder. Weren't these

1506
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:46,957
people murdered? How come there's not a

1507
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:49,277
murder charge here?

1508
01:22:49,360 --> 01:22:53,117
And there was a small community of

1509
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:55,837
faith-based abolitionists, Anglican

1510
01:22:55,920 --> 01:23:00,957
church and Quakers who didn't
like this thing called slavery.

1511
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:02,397
And there was another group of them in

1512
01:23:02,480 --> 01:23:05,357
America, Quakers especially, didn't like

1513
01:23:05,440 --> 01:23:08,797
this thing called slavery. And the

1514
01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:10,877
grandfather of the abolition of slavery

1515
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:13,757
is a man named Granville Sharp. Most

1516
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:17,277
people don't know that name, but he was

1517
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:19,437
the first person

1518
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:21,917
who was white-skinned to devote his life

1519
01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:25,037
to the abolition of slavery.

1520
01:23:25,120 --> 01:23:29,277
And he saw this letter and a former
slave who happened to be living in

1521
01:23:29,360 --> 01:23:31,357
London

1522
01:23:31,440 --> 01:23:33,677
brought this letter to him. All right.

1523
01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:38,077
His name was Olad Ecuano.
That's Ecuano and that's Granville

1524
01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:40,637
Sharp. Nicely done, Jamie.

1525
01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:43,037
Uh Ecuano was a former slave. He had

1526
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:47,757
been a slave in Virginia, but smart,
industrious, he bought his freedom and

1527
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:49,757
he heard about Granville Sharp.

1528
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:53,997
Granville Sharp had devoted his life
to ab abolishing slavery. Ecuano made his

1529
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:57,837
way to London. Said, "I'm going to I'm
going to do what I can to help." So

1530
01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:01,677
Granville Sharp sees this letter and he
says, "Man, I" He had been spending the

1531
01:24:01,760 --> 01:24:05,757
last two decades of his life trying
to build a legal argument against slavery.

1532
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:08,797
He taught himself the law. He didn't
finish school. Taught himself the law.

1533
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:12,157
Taught himself Latin, Greek, Hebrew.
He wrote pamphlets. We were talking about

1534
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:16,397
pamphlets, right? [clears throat]
Pamphlets was the thing of the day. You

1535
01:24:16,480 --> 01:24:19,837
had an idea. You wrote a pamphlet
and you you gave it to people. Granville

1536
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:24,237
Sharp wrote a pamphlet that he shared
with his friend Benjamin Franklin. He

1537
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:28,157
said, maybe he called
him Benjamin, I don't

1538
01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:31,917
know, maybe they had nicknames,
whatever. He said, "Benjamin,

1539
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:33,997
I have a pamphlet I want you to read.

1540
01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:36,557
And my argument is this." This was in

1541
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:39,037
the 1760s.

1542
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:41,997
Uh, you guys over there should not be

1543
01:24:42,080 --> 01:24:46,477
taxed without having
a representative in Parliament.

1544
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:48,317
And thus was born the slogan, no

1545
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:51,517
taxation without representation,

1546
01:24:51,600 --> 01:24:55,997
which became the rallying cry of the
American Revolutionary War. Yeah. Yeah,

1547
01:24:56,080 --> 01:24:59,037
that's right. Why are we paying all
these taxes to some king and we don't

1548
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:03,197
even have a say in the matter? So,
Granville Sharp was this Renaissance

1549
01:25:03,280 --> 01:25:05,357
man, self-taught

1550
01:25:05,440 --> 01:25:09,677
uh man of deep faith who could not

1551
01:25:09,760 --> 01:25:14,237
stomach the idea that a Christian nation
was involved in slavery. And he saw this

1552
01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:18,717
anonymous letter and he said, "This
is my case. This is the one. This is the

1553
01:25:18,800 --> 01:25:23,517
one that's going to blow this whole thing
open." He went back to the underwriters

1554
01:25:23,600 --> 01:25:26,637
and he said, "File a motion for a
retrial and now you make all these

1555
01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:28,877
arguments." And I have the trial

1556
01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:33,997
transcript because Granville
Sharp took hired someone to

1557
01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:35,757
transcribe the whole hearing in

1558
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:37,597
shorthand. So there's a record. That's

1559
01:25:37,680 --> 01:25:41,357
why we know what happened.

1560
01:25:41,440 --> 01:25:43,517
And it's all going along kind of the

1561
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:47,277
same way except this time they're making

1562
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:51,997
different arguments. The barristers are

1563
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:55,437
talking about for the first time in the

1564
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:57,677
history of the west and in a court of

1565
01:25:57,760 --> 01:26:01,277
law, human rights.

1566
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:04,317
Those black people had the same right to

1567
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:08,077
water as the white captain did. And this

1568
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:10,477
is a revolutionary idea. They have the

1569
01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:14,237
same right to life as the crew the crew

1570
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:16,877
of the ship did.

1571
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:19,517
And they're trying to persuade

1572
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:22,237
again Justice Mansfield and two more

1573
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:26,877
justices this time of this
notion of universal human

1574
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:29,197
rights.

1575
01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:32,077
And in the midst of all this,

1576
01:26:32,160 --> 01:26:35,117
the only witness again is Stubs.

1577
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:36,877
You saw that movie A Few Good Men.

1578
01:26:36,960 --> 01:26:39,757
>> Mhm. >> Yeah.
So there's that moment, right,

1579
01:26:39,840 --> 01:26:42,077
when Tom Cruz has Jack Nicholson on the

1580
01:26:42,160 --> 01:26:47,197
stand. He just has to get him to admit
he ordered the code red and he's quaking

1581
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:50,397
in his boots because Nicholson's,
you know, if he gets it wrong, that's it.

1582
01:26:50,480 --> 01:26:54,877
Court marshall, you're done. You know,
if you accuse a whatever 10star general

1583
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:58,797
ordering the code red and he's just, do
I push? Do I push? And he gets Nicholson

1584
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:02,157
going. He gets him moving. He gets him
agitated. And then of course he says,

1585
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:03,517
did you order the code red? And Nichol

1586
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:07,517
says, you're goddamn right I did.

1587
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:09,677
That that changes everything, right? You

1588
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:12,317
did. Oh, okay. All right. So there's a

1589
01:27:12,400 --> 01:27:15,277
moment like that in this trial.

1590
01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:19,277
Stubs is the only witness. All he has
to do is say, "We ran out of water."

1591
01:27:19,360 --> 01:27:21,277
Absolutely necessary to throw the

1592
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:24,397
Africans. Chief Justice Mansfield

1593
01:27:24,480 --> 01:27:27,037
uttered words that later went on in

1594
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:31,437
infamy. The case of the slaves
is the same as if horses had been thrown

1595
01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:35,597
overboard. That was his summary of the
first trial. Yeah, if you throw over

1596
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:39,037
horses, no one's going to talk about
murder. It's property. Slaves, same

1597
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:42,237
thing. He just has to say property

1598
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:44,797
thrown over because we we ran out of

1599
01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:47,117
water. The barristister's got stubs on

1600
01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:49,677
the stand. He's a fool. He's a dullard.

1601
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:53,757
He gets his mouth moving faster than his
brain is processing. And he gets stubs

1602
01:27:53,840 --> 01:27:55,357
to admit that in the middle of throwing

1603
01:27:55,440 --> 01:28:00,797
over Africans because they
were out of water, it rained.

1604
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:01,997
What do you mean it rained? Yeah, it

1605
01:28:02,080 --> 01:28:05,597
rained. So, you did have water.

1606
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:08,157
The whole thing is revealed to be this

1607
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:12,157
bankrupt moral fraud, the slave trade.

1608
01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:16,637
And now the world knows that not
only what's happening on these

1609
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:20,797
ships, things we talk about with these
images and the truth that was revealed,

1610
01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:22,317
but the fact that the whole thing is

1611
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:24,637
this big lie, this greed mongering,

1612
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:30,077
murderous lie for profit, and the public
found out about it. And this is what

1613
01:28:30,160 --> 01:28:35,117
gives me hope, Joe. And we talk about
the same things happening still today.

1614
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:37,037
This activated the first movement to

1615
01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:39,677
abolish slavery. It was born right after

1616
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:43,117
this this moment where a handful of

1617
01:28:43,200 --> 01:28:45,757
people in the Anglican church got

1618
01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:48,237
together. There were 12 of them and they

1619
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:51,037
met in a printing shop in 1787 and they

1620
01:28:51,120 --> 01:28:55,437
said we have to abolish slavery. It is a

1621
01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:58,157
stain on human conscience. It's a stain

1622
01:28:58,240 --> 01:29:00,797
on the British name. It is a stain

1623
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:05,197
against Christianity. we have to abolish
this horrific institution. And then they

1624
01:29:05,280 --> 01:29:07,277
devoted their lives to that task which

1625
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:10,157
was a monumental and herculean task. But

1626
01:29:10,240 --> 01:29:12,957
they succeeded using viral images,

1627
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:17,757
authentic testimony, investigative
journalism, consumer boycots, kind of

1628
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:21,357
the tools that we use today for social
justice were pioneered in this first

1629
01:29:21,440 --> 01:29:23,357
movement. And ultimately they did

1630
01:29:23,440 --> 01:29:27,037
succeed on paper. Granted and conceded

1631
01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:30,157
that it was just on paper. But

1632
01:29:30,240 --> 01:29:35,037
years later, even Frederick Douglas
said, "We commemorate every year the

1633
01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:36,637
abolition of slavery in the British

1634
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:39,997
Empire, August 1, 1838, because that

1635
01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:43,997
showed the world it was possible.

1636
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:48,397
And it was only a matter of time before
we did it here. It required a civil war,

1637
01:29:48,480 --> 01:29:50,957
but it was achieved." And and that was

1638
01:29:51,040 --> 01:29:55,757
the moment. And you trace it back
to that anonymous letter to these little

1639
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:59,517
acts of conscience to this handful
of men who got together in a printing shop

1640
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:01,997
and said our this is our life's focus

1641
01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:06,957
now including Granville Sharp. This is
our life's focus now to rid the world of

1642
01:30:07,040 --> 01:30:08,637
this moral stain. So now people are

1643
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:10,477
going to emerge as they learn about the

1644
01:30:10,560 --> 01:30:14,717
Congo [__] And I've seen it happening.

1645
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:17,277
people of conscience

1646
01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:21,997
forming and trying to find a way to push
back and bring some justice to the

1647
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:25,197
people in the Congo. Just as this
handful of people built an entire

1648
01:30:25,280 --> 01:30:27,037
movement at a time when slavery was

1649
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:30,237
normal, legal, accepted, most members of

1650
01:30:30,320 --> 01:30:32,397
parliament had investments in the slave

1651
01:30:32,480 --> 01:30:35,917
trade uh and profited from the sugar

1652
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:39,277
sugar economy. Um uh but they succeeded.

1653
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:41,037
They triumphed. They persevered through

1654
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:43,757
enormous obstacles and we have to do the

1655
01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:48,477
same today and it will require acts
of conscience. And by the way, the Zorg

1656
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:50,717
I've figured out who wrote that letter.

1657
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:53,197
240 years no one had known who was this

1658
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:56,317
person whose conscience bent history

1659
01:30:56,400 --> 01:30:58,877
towards goodness. And I managed to

1660
01:30:58,960 --> 01:31:02,237
figure out who it was. And um he's an

1661
01:31:02,320 --> 01:31:05,277
abolitionist named James Ramsay,

1662
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:07,837
a man of deep faith. I keep coming back

1663
01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:11,277
to that right this word faith and it's

1664
01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:15,997
important because I do think that

1665
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:20,797
we are a species generally of good and I

1666
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:23,997
think we all have a divine nature in us

1667
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:28,317
and yeah there's evil in the world
there's greed there's violence there's

1668
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:30,797
horror there's oppression there's all of

1669
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:34,797
that but the forces of good and the

1670
01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:36,797
spark of goodness within us and The

1671
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:39,437
faith we have in higher power invariably

1672
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:42,877
emerges and does succeed

1673
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:45,917
even if it's just for a moment.

1674
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:48,957
And and and we we need those moral

1675
01:31:49,040 --> 01:31:51,677
leaders today to pull us forward just as

1676
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:53,917
these handful of people in the past

1677
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:59,037
dragged humanity forward with the power
of their moral force. And we're looking

1678
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:00,477
for those leaders today because the

1679
01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:03,197
world is in so much turmoil. But we're

1680
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:06,877
incredibly malleable and influenced,

1681
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:11,357
easily influenced. And we could be
influenced in a great direction or we

1682
01:32:11,440 --> 01:32:15,597
could be influenced in a negative
direction. And this to me, regardless of

1683
01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:19,597
what you actually believe, this to me
is the great benefit of religion and

1684
01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:24,077
particularly in Christianity. Like if
you meet people that are like really by

1685
01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:26,797
the book Christians are some of the
nicest people you ever want to meet in

1686
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:30,637
your in your life. And they they get
a lot of happiness out of that. And this

1687
01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:33,757
is one of the things that a lot
of people are lacking in this world is

1688
01:32:33,840 --> 01:32:37,917
happiness. And without a moral framework
and an ethical framework, I'm not saying

1689
01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:41,197
that you can't be an atheist to be
an amazing person. I know a lot of amazing

1690
01:32:41,280 --> 01:32:45,837
people who are atheists. They're just
kind, you know, thoughtful, considerate

1691
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:49,597
people who came from good families
and have good friends and they don't they

1692
01:32:49,680 --> 01:32:51,597
don't need religion to be a good person.

1693
01:32:51,680 --> 01:32:54,237
But there is a real value in providing a

1694
01:32:54,320 --> 01:32:56,317
framework. There's a real value in

1695
01:32:56,400 --> 01:33:00,077
providing um an ideology that supports

1696
01:33:00,160 --> 01:33:02,717
being positive in your community, being

1697
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:05,037
a a good person, ethical person, being

1698
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:09,837
someone who forgives. Forgiveness
is very important part of Christianity. Um

1699
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:12,797
redemption is a very important part
of Christianity. This idea that we evolve

1700
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:15,837
and grow together. And in the in the

1701
01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:18,797
absence of that moral framework, you can

1702
01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:22,877
get people whose their ideology

1703
01:33:22,960 --> 01:33:25,437
looks at other human beings as property.

1704
01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:29,837
Their ideology looks at other human
beings as not the same as them. You

1705
01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:32,637
know, whether we're talking about China
and the treatment of the weaguers or

1706
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:36,637
whether we're talking about the African
slave trade or the Congo right now, it's

1707
01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:38,637
all kind of the same thing.

1708
01:33:38,720 --> 01:33:43,197
>> I I could I totally agree.
Um I think uh

1709
01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:47,917
the Christian faith has been a force
for enormous good at crucial points in

1710
01:33:48,000 --> 01:33:49,757
history and the abolition of slavery is

1711
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:53,117
one of them. Um uh without question

1712
01:33:53,200 --> 01:33:57,517
there's a ethic of compassion, of

1713
01:33:57,600 --> 01:34:00,717
empathy, uh be a good neighbor, be a

1714
01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:03,517
good brother and sister. Um we're all

1715
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:06,317
God's children. And you see that

1716
01:34:06,400 --> 01:34:10,637
language in the driving that's
driving the abolitionists

1717
01:34:10,720 --> 01:34:12,957
uh in these movements to abolish slavery.

1718
01:34:13,040 --> 01:34:16,957
>> And this is not to um this is not to

1719
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:19,757
forgive the horrors that people under

1720
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:24,957
the guise of Christianity have >>
performed. So the Inquisition or what

1721
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:27,277
>> that's right >> you could
the crusades you could go

1722
01:34:27,360 --> 01:34:30,797
through a lot of horrific things that
were done in the name of Christianity

1723
01:34:30,880 --> 01:34:32,957
but not really by in the spirit of it.

1724
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:36,237
And this is the problem with
human beings. We can make these

1725
01:34:36,320 --> 01:34:40,237
rationalizations and make these
decisions and and we can decide that

1726
01:34:40,320 --> 01:34:42,397
we're doing horrific things for the

1727
01:34:42,480 --> 01:34:45,277
greater good. That is a also a problem

1728
01:34:45,360 --> 01:34:49,437
with human rationalization that we could
be the most awful people as long as we

1729
01:34:49,520 --> 01:34:52,957
think we're being awful doing it for good.

1730
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:57,357
It's just a a weird human tribal problem
that we've always had. So when you're

1731
01:34:57,440 --> 01:35:00,957
looking at Christianity, think about
megaurch pastors driving around in

1732
01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:05,677
Rolls-Royces and flying private jets
and ripping off these dull-minded people.

1733
01:35:05,760 --> 01:35:08,957
But that's not that's >> that's
not the that's not the spirit of

1734
01:35:09,040 --> 01:35:13,677
the faith, you know.
That's humans. That's greed. And

1735
01:35:13,760 --> 01:35:16,637
>> it's humans. They're in the
weird ability to justify things.

1736
01:35:16,720 --> 01:35:21,037
>> That's right. And in pursuit
of self-interest and self-gratification,

1737
01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:24,717
and that will always be a part of the
human condition. And there are those

1738
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:27,117
among us, but there are greater angels.

1739
01:35:27,200 --> 01:35:29,517
>> Yeah. >> You know,
the people who endure who

1740
01:35:29,600 --> 01:35:32,317
endured those slaveships with grace, who

1741
01:35:32,400 --> 01:35:34,637
endure the minds in the Congo with

1742
01:35:34,720 --> 01:35:37,437
grace, they are so much stronger and

1743
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:40,877
have so much more human worth than those

1744
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:45,037
who oppress and who are greedy
and self-interested. And it's it is

1745
01:35:45,120 --> 01:35:49,117
>> what's the worst example
of human beings imaginable?

1746
01:35:49,200 --> 01:35:52,877
To the point where you're throwing
women and children overboard for water.

1747
01:35:52,960 --> 01:35:55,117
>> Yeah. including
a a mother and her baby.

1748
01:35:55,200 --> 01:35:58,397
You know, it's it's it's heartbreaking.

1749
01:35:58,480 --> 01:36:02,717
>> I mean, there's just horrific
stories of what Columbus did

1750
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:05,197
>> and what his
the the people on his boats

1751
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:09,757
did when they reached the Americas
or the Bahamas. The the horrific things

1752
01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:12,637
they did to people when they
found that these people had gold.

1753
01:36:12,720 --> 01:36:14,717
>> Yeah. >> And they
required that they bring back

1754
01:36:14,800 --> 01:36:17,677
the their own weight and gold
or they chop their arms off.

1755
01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:20,237
>> Chop their arms off.
You know, there was all kinds of

1756
01:36:20,320 --> 01:36:23,677
>> dashing babies heads against rocks
in front of their mothers. They did

1757
01:36:23,760 --> 01:36:28,397
horrific things. And this was all
documented by some religious scholar who

1758
01:36:28,480 --> 01:36:31,917
was on board with them. A religious leader
who's on board with some some Christian.

1759
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:34,077
>> Yeah. Look, let's not let's be clear.

1760
01:36:34,160 --> 01:36:36,477
Europeans messed up a lot of the world.

1761
01:36:36,560 --> 01:36:40,957
>> Oh yeah. >> Okay.
I mean that the the the reason I

1762
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:44,237
went through a little bit of time
talking about the caravl and the deep

1763
01:36:44,320 --> 01:36:47,517
sea fairing vessel is this is this was

1764
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:50,717
this is what took the Europeans

1765
01:36:50,800 --> 01:36:53,837
all across the global south and by and

1766
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:58,637
large that was a miserable
experience for the people they met.

1767
01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:02,317
>> Yeah. Always >> that was >>
even if it was just diseases

1768
01:37:02,400 --> 01:37:06,797
>> it whether Yeah.
disease and then of course violence

1769
01:37:06,880 --> 01:37:09,997
uh enslavement, oppression,
colonization, >> all the [snorts] above.

1770
01:37:10,080 --> 01:37:11,277
>> You know, all all of the above. There

1771
01:37:11,360 --> 01:37:14,637
was a malice um and a greed and a sense

1772
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:19,917
of superiority that was inherent to that
entire episode of history. And I often

1773
01:37:20,000 --> 01:37:22,157
look back and think, man,
if they had just stayed home,

1774
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:26,157
>> not only that, they were
essentially a scourge of plague.

1775
01:37:26,240 --> 01:37:30,237
>> They they brought they >>
smallox 90% of Native Americans were

1776
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:33,677
wiped out because of that. >> Yeah.
And we we think that has to do

1777
01:37:33,760 --> 01:37:35,517
with what happened to the Mayans.

1778
01:37:35,600 --> 01:37:36,797
>> We think that has to do with what

1779
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:39,917
happened in uh Brazil and the Congo when

1780
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:44,637
they find these what used to be enormous
populations and these grids when they're

1781
01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:47,837
doing the LAR scans and they're saying,
"Oh, this used to be like cities."

1782
01:37:47,920 --> 01:37:49,997
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and now we're

1783
01:37:50,080 --> 01:37:53,437
highly populated and then just suddenly

1784
01:37:53,520 --> 01:37:58,397
very rapidly depopulated. And it wasn't
all just violence. You're right. It was

1785
01:37:58,480 --> 01:38:01,597
disease and >> disease.
So everything they did was bad.

1786
01:38:01,680 --> 01:38:04,397
The violence was bad
and everything they did was bad.

1787
01:38:04,480 --> 01:38:08,637
>> It's such a crazy story that cuz
it's hard to imagine. You know, I used to

1788
01:38:08,720 --> 01:38:13,037
have this joke in my act about our country
is 300 years old. People live to

1789
01:38:13,120 --> 01:38:14,797
be 100. I go, that's three people.

1790
01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:17,197
That's what's nuts.
It's like three people ago.

1791
01:38:17,280 --> 01:38:19,357
>> A young country.
>> Yeah. Or really country.

1792
01:38:19,440 --> 01:38:20,717
>> Two and a half. Two and a half people

1793
01:38:20,800 --> 01:38:24,157
ago, we just got here. which is just

1794
01:38:24,240 --> 01:38:27,357
nuts to even think about how quickly the

1795
01:38:27,440 --> 01:38:31,437
human race progresses and how
devastating the introduction of new

1796
01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:35,917
people especially with like diseases
>> when they find the people that were

1797
01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:38,877
here. >> Well, we we
imagine this with, you know,

1798
01:38:38,960 --> 01:38:42,957
the arrival of aliens like this is first
contact the story like what what would

1799
01:38:43,040 --> 01:38:45,997
happen? >> Sure. >> When aliens
show up, are they going to

1800
01:38:46,080 --> 01:38:48,717
blow everything up, right?
>> Are they going to enslave us? And

1801
01:38:48,800 --> 01:38:51,757
>> are they going to be like the Quakers
or are they going to be like the Chinese?

1802
01:38:51,840 --> 01:38:54,397
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well said. >> Or the Dutch.

1803
01:38:54,480 --> 01:38:58,957
>> Yeah, the Dutch. >> You know,
>> yeah, it's it's you know, the question

1804
01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:00,717
though now is there's a there's a lot of

1805
01:39:00,800 --> 01:39:04,237
conversation about reparation.

1806
01:39:04,320 --> 01:39:06,957
>> Do European countries

1807
01:39:07,040 --> 01:39:11,437
need to write a check for what they did?

1808
01:39:11,520 --> 01:39:14,317
And it's a complicated question. You

1809
01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:16,477
know, Jamaica just went to England and

1810
01:39:16,560 --> 01:39:21,677
said, "Please, you know, you you took

1811
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:24,317
millions of Africans, brought them here,

1812
01:39:24,400 --> 01:39:26,797
enslaved them, and made yourself from

1813
01:39:26,880 --> 01:39:30,557
this muddy medieval backasswords

1814
01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:35,277
island to an economic superpower

1815
01:39:35,360 --> 01:39:38,397
with centuries of wealth on the back of

1816
01:39:38,480 --> 01:39:43,517
largely sugar, slavery, and so on. So um

1817
01:39:43,600 --> 01:39:45,917
those people worked for free for

1818
01:39:46,000 --> 01:39:49,837
centuries and um you need to write a

1819
01:39:49,920 --> 01:39:52,237
check.

1820
01:39:52,320 --> 01:39:54,077
Now that's a fascinating question, isn't

1821
01:39:54,160 --> 01:39:58,477
it? So on the one hand, you know, if if

1822
01:39:58,560 --> 01:40:03,917
if your father worked at a a
manufacturing plant and let's say he

1823
01:40:04,000 --> 01:40:05,437
worked for 30 years and they never paid

1824
01:40:05,520 --> 01:40:08,077
him, we wouldn't think about, oh yeah,

1825
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:12,717
you know, your dad is owed money because
he worked. He should be paid for that

1826
01:40:12,800 --> 01:40:17,757
work. The company made their money
off his labor. And so all right,

1827
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:21,277
uh are the descendants
of those slaves owed

1828
01:40:21,360 --> 01:40:24,477
some money? And

1829
01:40:24,560 --> 01:40:28,397
Jamaica went to England
just recently and said

1830
01:40:28,480 --> 01:40:32,717
10 billion pounds like just something.
I mean you when you start to calculate

1831
01:40:32,800 --> 01:40:34,637
unpaid labor for three centuries plus

1832
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:36,797
interest it's trillions and trillions

1833
01:40:36,880 --> 01:40:41,117
and it's an in you know impossible sum.

1834
01:40:41,200 --> 01:40:43,597
Uh but something is owed and then you

1835
01:40:43,680 --> 01:40:46,317
say well now wait a minute um if you're

1836
01:40:46,400 --> 01:40:51,277
the British government I wasn't
a part of that. I I I didn't I

1837
01:40:51,360 --> 01:40:54,557
didn't participate in this, so why am
I writing a check? And then the Jamaican

1838
01:40:54,640 --> 01:40:57,837
says, "Yeah, but everything you have
today is built on that." And so there's

1839
01:40:57,920 --> 01:40:59,437
this conversation going back and forth,

1840
01:40:59,520 --> 01:41:04,557
Joe, about is a check due? Um or is it

1841
01:41:04,640 --> 01:41:07,117
just and fair to to ask for that

1842
01:41:07,200 --> 01:41:12,477
reparation be paid for this period
in slavery? just as the Bel the Congalles

1843
01:41:12,560 --> 01:41:15,837
are talking to the Belgians. You know,
you Liupole came down here and look what

1844
01:41:15,920 --> 01:41:18,397
he did to us and then colonized us and

1845
01:41:18,480 --> 01:41:23,197
uh a a a check needs to be written of uh

1846
01:41:23,280 --> 01:41:26,637
as well as an apology and uh it's a it's

1847
01:41:26,720 --> 01:41:28,957
a difficult it's a difficult question.

1848
01:41:29,040 --> 01:41:32,797
>> Who would um receive the check and how
would it be distributed? That would be

1849
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:35,037
the real question. >> That's
part of the complexity. Like

1850
01:41:35,120 --> 01:41:38,717
>> the fear would be that corruption would
get involved and someone would siphon

1851
01:41:38,800 --> 01:41:40,637
off the money. >> Yeah.
You say, "Wait, you're going to

1852
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:44,317
tell me I need to write a check to the
government of the Congo?" All right,

1853
01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:46,077
that's not getting to anybody who

1854
01:41:46,160 --> 01:41:49,197
actually could use it or I just give a

1855
01:41:49,280 --> 01:41:53,917
check to Jamaica and trust that they
>> All right, but does that mean that in

1856
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:57,837
principle something's not owed? You know,
>> but even if you distribute distributed

1857
01:41:57,920 --> 01:42:02,237
to the individual people, you you'd have
to make sure that no one's stealing it

1858
01:42:02,320 --> 01:42:06,397
from anybody else. And then you would
have to figure out how to distribute it.

1859
01:42:06,480 --> 01:42:08,797
And

1860
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:12,557
I mean it does at at the very least if a

1861
01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:15,997
country's or or a corporation's entire

1862
01:42:16,080 --> 01:42:19,277
start like the their beginning was based

1863
01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:23,837
on slavery getting sugar. That's kind of

1864
01:42:23,920 --> 01:42:27,437
insane that somehow or another that
profit led to people that are still

1865
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:30,397
wealthy today. >> Well, you know,
>> they can trace that, right?

1866
01:42:30,480 --> 01:42:31,757
>> Yeah, they can trace that.
You know what

1867
01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:36,157
else they've done? So when the British
abolished slavery, okay, they wrote a

1868
01:42:36,240 --> 01:42:40,477
check to the slave owners. >> Oh my god.

1869
01:42:40,560 --> 01:42:42,797
>> This was part of the deal
to get the bill through part.

1870
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:44,717
>> How much did they have to give them?

1871
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:48,957
>> Cuz it was they were the argument
was, well, you're taking my property,

1872
01:42:49,040 --> 01:42:51,197
>> so you need to pay
me for that property.

1873
01:42:51,280 --> 01:42:53,197
Now, no one was talking about, well, do

1874
01:42:53,280 --> 01:42:55,357
we pay anything to the Africans who

1875
01:42:55,440 --> 01:42:58,637
worked for free, the slave owners who

1876
01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:00,877
are also all members of parliament.

1877
01:43:00,960 --> 01:43:03,277
you're taking my property. So, you're

1878
01:43:03,360 --> 01:43:05,597
going to find this fascinating.

1879
01:43:05,680 --> 01:43:09,357
They allocated a sum of 20 million

1880
01:43:09,440 --> 01:43:13,197
pounds back in 1833
when the law was passed.

1881
01:43:13,280 --> 01:43:14,317
>> What is that equivalent to?

1882
01:43:14,400 --> 01:43:17,437
>> Equivalent at the time to 40% of the

1883
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:21,757
entire national budget. Whoa.

1884
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:25,437
>> And they distributed this money.
You got a slave certifi compensation

1885
01:43:25,520 --> 01:43:27,197
certificate. And based on the number of

1886
01:43:27,280 --> 01:43:30,077
slaves you had times the amount that was

1887
01:43:30,160 --> 01:43:33,437
each was valued, you got that check then

1888
01:43:33,520 --> 01:43:37,757
and there. So number one, uh it was a

1889
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:40,797
massive sum of money, 40% of the

1890
01:43:40,880 --> 01:43:43,517
national budget at the time.

1891
01:43:43,600 --> 01:43:50,600
But the fascinating piece of this
was the government took out a loan

1892
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:53,357
for that quantum

1893
01:43:53,440 --> 01:43:56,477
and the British taxpayer was repaying

1894
01:43:56,560 --> 01:44:00,477
that loan up until 2015.

1895
01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:05,037
>> Holy [__] >> So

1896
01:44:05,120 --> 01:44:09,997
imagine you're you they
didn't even know. Okay.

1897
01:44:10,080 --> 01:44:11,757
The average British taxpayer had no

1898
01:44:11,840 --> 01:44:15,597
idea. The average British taxpayer,

1899
01:44:15,680 --> 01:44:18,797
British citizen, was repaying the loan

1900
01:44:18,880 --> 01:44:22,077
taken out in 1833

1901
01:44:22,160 --> 01:44:24,797
by the government

1902
01:44:24,880 --> 01:44:28,557
to pay slave owners for the loss of

1903
01:44:28,640 --> 01:44:32,557
their slave property. So for the next

1904
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:34,637
180 years

1905
01:44:34,720 --> 01:44:37,437
and now

1906
01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:41,117
let's say you're a taxpayer in 2010,

1907
01:44:41,200 --> 01:44:43,277
you had nothing to do with what was

1908
01:44:43,360 --> 01:44:47,677
happening in 1800s or the 1700s, but

1909
01:44:47,760 --> 01:44:52,557
you've been paying the bill.
You've been paying back now these

1910
01:44:52,640 --> 01:44:56,157
families, some of them prominent,
the Gladstones, for instance. The longest

1911
01:44:56,240 --> 01:44:59,437
serving ever prime minister in British
history was a Gladstone. And he got one

1912
01:44:59,520 --> 01:45:02,477
of the biggest checks. >> How much?

1913
01:45:02,560 --> 01:45:05,837
>> It was 104 105,000 pounds back in the

1914
01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:10,477
1830s. I mean, we're talking
tens of millions equivalent today.

1915
01:45:10,560 --> 01:45:13,597
>> So, they got super
wealthy all in one check

1916
01:45:13,680 --> 01:45:17,357
>> on top of the wealth they
had been making, >> right,

1917
01:45:17,440 --> 01:45:21,677
>> through slave labor and selling sugar
and rum and molasses and all that. They

1918
01:45:21,760 --> 01:45:26,397
got double wealthy with one
big fat check at the end of the

1919
01:45:26,480 --> 01:45:28,877
at the end of this.
Now the average >> what year was this?

1920
01:45:28,960 --> 01:45:32,957
>> Uh the bill was passed in 1833 and uh

1921
01:45:33,040 --> 01:45:38,157
slaves uh the the requirements were all
slaves in the British Empire are free

1922
01:45:38,240 --> 01:45:42,157
after five years of unpaid
apprenticeship. So they could slave

1923
01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:46,157
owners had a chance to transition
to paying their workers. You had to work

1924
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:49,117
five years as an unpaid apprentice.

1925
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:53,517
Um, you will get your check if you're
a slave owner for your property. Here's

1926
01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:55,197
your certificate.
Just tally up your slave.

1927
01:45:55,280 --> 01:45:57,517
>> So, if you're a slave,
you're still a slave

1928
01:45:57,600 --> 01:45:58,957
>> for five more years. For five more

1929
01:45:59,040 --> 01:46:03,437
years. Uh, and the territories of the

1930
01:46:03,520 --> 01:46:06,957
East India Trading Company were excluded.

1931
01:46:07,040 --> 01:46:10,157
>> Oh, that's a fascinating story.
The East

1932
01:46:10,240 --> 01:46:12,477
India Trading That's another
four hours on its own.

1933
01:46:12,560 --> 01:46:16,717
>> That we'll we'll we'll come to that.
But I would love to. The brief is So, this

1934
01:46:16,800 --> 01:46:20,957
is 1830s. >> Yeah.
and the East India Trading Company

1935
01:46:21,040 --> 01:46:23,437
controls the subcontinent.

1936
01:46:23,520 --> 01:46:25,757
And from the 1830s

1937
01:46:25,840 --> 01:46:28,877
until independence in 1947, there's a

1938
01:46:28,960 --> 01:46:33,837
reason why Jamaica has a ton of Indians

1939
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:38,077
and Guyana and Mauritius and Malaysia

1940
01:46:38,160 --> 01:46:42,557
and all these former sugar colonies
of the British. Like, all right, no more

1941
01:46:42,640 --> 01:46:46,477
African slaves.
They excluded the East India Trading

1942
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:50,477
Company territory and started
shipping out the Indians

1943
01:46:50,560 --> 01:46:54,877
to keep the system going. All the slave
owners got their big fat checks which

1944
01:46:54,960 --> 01:46:59,197
the British taxpayer only
paid off 10 years ago.

1945
01:46:59,280 --> 01:47:03,517
So, it makes the question about
writing checks and so on a little more

1946
01:47:03,600 --> 01:47:07,757
interesting. It's complicated and I
don't have a firm opinion on it, but

1947
01:47:07,840 --> 01:47:09,277
there's enough there that has to be

1948
01:47:09,360 --> 01:47:10,877
teased through. But the one that really

1949
01:47:10,960 --> 01:47:14,957
gets me is when I heard uh in 2015 that

1950
01:47:15,040 --> 01:47:18,077
they finally paid off the bill, the loan.

1951
01:47:18,160 --> 01:47:21,880
>> That is so insane.

1952
01:47:23,280 --> 01:47:27,357
It's so insane how much money they spent
to get these people to give up their

1953
01:47:27,440 --> 01:47:29,837
slaves and then they still
had to work for 5 years.

1954
01:47:29,920 --> 01:47:34,797
>> They had to work for 5 years and then
on August 1st, 1838, uh Frederick Douglas

1955
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:38,957
writes about this very beautifully
with the with the rising of the sun. I I

1956
01:47:39,040 --> 01:47:41,997
can't quote his words exactly.
Uh they're in the zorg at the end. You

1957
01:47:42,080 --> 01:47:43,357
know, with the blink of an eye and the

1958
01:47:43,440 --> 01:47:47,837
rising of the sun on that day, freedom

1959
01:47:47,920 --> 01:47:52,157
was won. Every African
person woke up free.

1960
01:47:52,240 --> 01:47:53,677
>> And this is after the five years.

1961
01:47:53,760 --> 01:47:56,957
>> This is after the five years, August 1,
1838. And Douglas was given a speech in

1962
01:47:57,040 --> 01:48:00,157
Elmmyra, New York in 1880. He said, "We

1963
01:48:00,240 --> 01:48:04,317
still commemorate that day because it

1964
01:48:04,400 --> 01:48:08,637
taught us and showed us what's possible.

1965
01:48:08,720 --> 01:48:12,877
Goodness is possible. Freedom
is possible." And yes, it was with the

1966
01:48:12,960 --> 01:48:14,717
stroke of a pen from a monarch across

1967
01:48:14,800 --> 01:48:18,237
the sea. Uh but uh we which is a system

1968
01:48:18,320 --> 01:48:22,957
the the Americans overthrew. They didn't
want kings and monarchy, right? That's

1969
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:25,197
the we want democracy here. >> [snorts]

1970
01:48:25,280 --> 01:48:28,317
>> um uh it showed us
what was possible and

1971
01:48:28,400 --> 01:48:32,877
and and Douglas uh crossed the Atlantic

1972
01:48:32,960 --> 01:48:36,877
after this this moment in history
and he met with the only surviving member

1973
01:48:36,960 --> 01:48:40,397
remember I told you 12 guys met in a
printing shop in London and only one of

1974
01:48:40,480 --> 01:48:42,557
them lived to see the day in 1838 his

1975
01:48:42,640 --> 01:48:47,597
name was Thomas Clarkson he rode his
horse 35,000 miles up and down England

1976
01:48:47,680 --> 01:48:49,437
gathering evidence to present to

1977
01:48:49,520 --> 01:48:52,717
Parliament about against the slave trade

1978
01:48:52,800 --> 01:48:56,477
and he was the only one left alive
and Douglas crossed the Atlantic and met

1979
01:48:56,560 --> 01:48:59,517
with him and and said, "Please teach me

1980
01:48:59,600 --> 01:49:03,997
everything you guys did, what you what
succeeded, what didn't, so so we can

1981
01:49:04,080 --> 01:49:06,797
achieve freedom for the slaves
in America." And you know, the rest is

1982
01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:09,757
history. Of course, >> you just
have to imagine if the whole

1983
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:13,997
trial with the Zorg didn't take place,
how much longer the slave trade would

1984
01:49:14,080 --> 01:49:17,997
have gone on. >> Yeah. I mean,
slavery was going to get abolished,

1985
01:49:18,080 --> 01:49:19,517
>> right? You know, how much longer?

1986
01:49:19,600 --> 01:49:21,597
>> How much longer? >> Right.
If it wasn't for just a few

1987
01:49:21,680 --> 01:49:26,237
individuals. And right researching this
book, Joe, I'll tell you, it felt like

1988
01:49:26,320 --> 01:49:28,317
there were so many flukes of

1989
01:49:28,400 --> 01:49:31,597
circumstance. It felt like there was a

1990
01:49:31,680 --> 01:49:33,277
higher power that finally said, "All

1991
01:49:33,360 --> 01:49:35,837
right, I've let you guys run a muck long

1992
01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:39,437
enough. You are letting the devil within

1993
01:49:39,520 --> 01:49:43,677
you rule. And I'm going to pull this lever
and push this button and make sure

1994
01:49:43,760 --> 01:49:47,917
that the angels learn what's happening
because I believe in them and that they

1995
01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:49,437
will triumph over you." And that and

1996
01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:53,357
that's what happened. God,

1997
01:49:53,440 --> 01:49:57,037
it's such a heavy story. >> Yeah.
Every time I come here now, I just,

1998
01:49:57,120 --> 01:49:58,317
>> you know, this one's even heavier.

1999
01:49:58,400 --> 01:50:01,517
>> I feel like I >> I don't know.
They're both pretty heavy, but Jesus,

2000
01:50:01,600 --> 01:50:06,397
>> you said something a while ago about,
you know, today we have connection, you

2001
01:50:06,480 --> 01:50:09,517
know, through social media and videos
and we can tell what's going on in the

2002
01:50:09,600 --> 01:50:13,197
Congo because truth seekers go there
and they can snap a photo and a video and

2003
01:50:13,280 --> 01:50:15,917
show it to us.
And that's a big difference today,

2004
01:50:16,000 --> 01:50:18,077
>> right? Imagine in the 1700s.

2005
01:50:18,160 --> 01:50:21,037
>> Oh, yeah. trying to gather evidence and

2006
01:50:21,120 --> 01:50:23,437
and persuade people of of what the truth

2007
01:50:23,520 --> 01:50:28,637
is. Uh and it it was this fascinating
battle of storytelling because the slave

2008
01:50:28,720 --> 01:50:31,037
owners would say, "Now, what are you
talking about? They have plenty of room

2009
01:50:31,120 --> 01:50:34,157
on the ship and they when they get on,
this is they actually said this. When

2010
01:50:34,240 --> 01:50:37,437
they get on board, we give them cordials
and they play games of chance and

2011
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:41,917
they're very pleased and have
a very nice time of it." And then the

2012
01:50:42,000 --> 01:50:45,677
abolitionist said, "Let me show
you the schematic of the brooks

2013
01:50:45,760 --> 01:50:49,757
and show me the ample room on deck and
where the cordials are being served." So

2014
01:50:49,840 --> 01:50:51,917
they're going back and forth about

2015
01:50:52,000 --> 01:50:53,677
truth.

2016
01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:59,197
And truth wins, Joe. It always wins.
And it may backslide and it may get

2017
01:50:59,280 --> 01:51:03,597
suppressed and it may take time,
but truth wins. These two things can only

2018
01:51:03,680 --> 01:51:06,157
remain hidden so long. The moon and the

2019
01:51:06,240 --> 01:51:09,037
truth. [snorts]

2020
01:51:09,120 --> 01:51:12,477
Okay? But the point I'm making here is

2021
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:15,357
they didn't have videos and pictures and

2022
01:51:15,440 --> 01:51:19,277
social media, but with their faith, they

2023
01:51:19,360 --> 01:51:21,837
extended their empathy to people they

2024
01:51:21,920 --> 01:51:25,997
would never ever see or meet.

2025
01:51:26,080 --> 01:51:31,277
None of those abolitionists
ever stepped foot in Africa.

2026
01:51:31,360 --> 01:51:34,797
Only a couple had been to the Caribbean
islands, including James Ramsay, who

2027
01:51:34,880 --> 01:51:39,277
wrote that anonymous letter. None
of them ever stepped foot in Africa, but

2028
01:51:39,360 --> 01:51:43,037
they extended their hearts out to a
people they knew were being oppressed,

2029
01:51:43,120 --> 01:51:47,917
but were fellow children of God,
and they fought for them.

2030
01:51:48,000 --> 01:51:51,277
>> And it was very difficult to get
that information. Without that trial, who

2031
01:51:51,360 --> 01:51:54,957
knows how long it would have taken.
This is what's really important about your

2032
01:51:55,040 --> 01:51:57,997
work because it what you going to the

2033
01:51:58,080 --> 01:52:03,197
Congo, getting those photographs, coming
back with that, writing Cobalt Red, and

2034
01:52:03,280 --> 01:52:07,117
then coming on podcasts [clears throat]
and telling millions and millions of

2035
01:52:07,200 --> 01:52:08,797
people the story that would have never

2036
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:11,677
had any idea. I knew vaguely that there

2037
01:52:11,760 --> 01:52:14,957
was mines in the Congo that extracted

2038
01:52:15,040 --> 01:52:17,037
rare earth minerals and that they needed

2039
01:52:17,120 --> 01:52:19,837
them for cell phones and batteries, but

2040
01:52:19,920 --> 01:52:22,637
I I'd had no idea the extent of it until

2041
01:52:22,720 --> 01:52:27,357
you came on and described it.
>> Well, the millions is thanks to you. I

2042
01:52:27,440 --> 01:52:29,597
mean, you know, I went there. Yes. Uh

2043
01:52:29,680 --> 01:52:32,957
and I saw the human apocalypse

2044
01:52:33,040 --> 01:52:38,157
and it is a human apocalypse,
Joe. It's an environmental

2045
01:52:38,240 --> 01:52:39,677
apocalypse.

2046
01:52:39,760 --> 01:52:45,197
Um, but you've you've played
an important role in spreading that truth.

2047
01:52:45,280 --> 01:52:46,397
>> So, well, it's the least I can do.

2048
01:52:46,480 --> 01:52:49,677
Everybody would do it if they're in my
position. You have to do it. It's And

2049
01:52:49,760 --> 01:52:52,477
it's also uh to me it's um although

2050
01:52:52,560 --> 01:52:54,957
horrific, utterly fascinating. It's

2051
01:52:55,040 --> 01:52:57,357
fascinating that people the the way

2052
01:52:57,440 --> 01:52:59,757
people can rationalize things like that.

2053
01:52:59,840 --> 01:53:04,557
The way people can just the way certain
cultures treat other human beings, they

2054
01:53:04,640 --> 01:53:06,397
just don't give a [__] about them at all.

2055
01:53:06,480 --> 01:53:08,717
>> Yeah. >> At all.
They just want that. We have to

2056
01:53:08,800 --> 01:53:12,557
do better. We have to be a better model
for the world. We meaning this country.

2057
01:53:12,640 --> 01:53:14,077
This country has to be a better model.

2058
01:53:14,160 --> 01:53:18,237
And it pains me that right now
we're not being a very good model.

2059
01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:20,237
>> We're certainly not the best we can be.

2060
01:53:20,320 --> 01:53:23,197
>> No, >> that's a fact.
Uh that's undeniable. No

2061
01:53:23,280 --> 01:53:26,557
one no one says the way we exist is ideal.
The way we interact with the

2062
01:53:26,640 --> 01:53:30,877
world is ideal. No one does. But then
again, also we're not dealing with ideal

2063
01:53:30,960 --> 01:53:35,517
circumstances either and ideal people on,
you know, that are running other

2064
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:39,677
parts of the world as well. The whole
thing's chaos. That's what's so scary.

2065
01:53:39,760 --> 01:53:43,437
The whole thing's chaos. And there's
nuclear weapons everywhere. And who

2066
01:53:43,520 --> 01:53:48,397
knows who's going to be the first to say,
"Fuck this." And just push. Yeah.

2067
01:53:48,480 --> 01:53:51,117
>> Yeah. >> I mean,
and again, like we always talk

2068
01:53:51,200 --> 01:53:54,877
about Gaza. If you looked at Gaza, you

2069
01:53:54,960 --> 01:53:59,677
you're seeing a prolonged campaign
of bombs, but isn't the ultimate result

2070
01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:03,757
kind of very similar to someone dropping
a nuclear bomb? It's not I mean a small

2071
01:54:03,840 --> 01:54:08,477
nuclear bomb like what they
did with Little Boy or Fat Man

2072
01:54:08,560 --> 01:54:12,717
not much difference in the amount
of destruction. Something like 90% of Gaza

2073
01:54:12,800 --> 01:54:15,357
is gone. >> Gone. Yeah.
I mean if you if you added

2074
01:54:15,440 --> 01:54:17,997
up the explosive power of what's been

2075
01:54:18,080 --> 01:54:23,037
dropped on Gaza now it
probably is akin to fat man.

2076
01:54:23,120 --> 01:54:26,717
>> Well it looks like a hydrogen bomb just
detonated there. It just that's what it

2077
01:54:26,800 --> 01:54:30,397
looks like. So everything's completely
flattened and and but it's happened in

2078
01:54:30,480 --> 01:54:33,677
like this slow frog boiling type situation

2079
01:54:33,760 --> 01:54:35,997
>> where the water you know the story.

2080
01:54:36,080 --> 01:54:37,517
>> They turn the water up.
The frog doesn't

2081
01:54:37,600 --> 01:54:41,997
realize it's being boiled. It slowly
just turns it up and it's like everyone

2082
01:54:42,080 --> 01:54:45,677
is screaming and yelling about it
and yet it's still going on and it's going

2083
01:54:45,760 --> 01:54:49,357
on slowly. Boom boom boom boom.
Not one big boom,

2084
01:54:49,440 --> 01:54:53,117
>> right? >> And you know
most young people have had

2085
01:54:53,200 --> 01:54:55,677
enough. Most young people are [__]

2086
01:54:55,760 --> 01:55:00,157
absolutely horrified by it. It's the
people that can justify it somehow that

2087
01:55:00,240 --> 01:55:03,757
are really scary. >> I think
that the average person in that

2088
01:55:03,840 --> 01:55:05,997
part of the world, the average the

2089
01:55:06,080 --> 01:55:12,317
average Palestinian, the average Jewish
person is is fed up too of conflict,

2090
01:55:12,400 --> 01:55:14,957
>> of course, >> and war.
>> They all want the same thing.

2091
01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:17,757
>> They just want peace,
safety for their kids,

2092
01:55:17,840 --> 01:55:23,357
>> right? And they have these leaders
who have bloodlust >> on both sides.

2093
01:55:23,440 --> 01:55:27,197
>> On both sides. >> Yeah.
And uh and justifiably so. If you

2094
01:55:27,280 --> 01:55:30,077
think they've been killing each other
for so long, they've been going back and

2095
01:55:30,160 --> 01:55:34,237
forth and killing each other. There's
like a cemented pattern of behavior

2096
01:55:34,320 --> 01:55:37,437
that they have with each other. I mean,
we're, you know, people were talking

2097
01:55:37,520 --> 01:55:40,557
about when I was in high school, peace
in the Middle East, like it was a joke,

2098
01:55:40,640 --> 01:55:43,357
like that it would never
be achieved, you know.

2099
01:55:43,440 --> 01:55:46,717
>> Here we are. >> And here we are.
It's more of the same.

2100
01:55:46,800 --> 01:55:49,357
And even I think we just shipped a

2101
01:55:49,440 --> 01:55:54,237
record number of bombs or we're going
to ship a rep record number of bombs over

2102
01:55:54,320 --> 01:55:57,837
there. [snorts] [sighs]

2103
01:55:57,920 --> 01:56:01,597
>> Violence begets violence. >> Well,
it's just that's one of the things

2104
01:56:01,680 --> 01:56:05,117
that really disturbs me the most about
people is that if you asked the average

2105
01:56:05,200 --> 01:56:09,437
person uh what are the odds that we will
have no war in your lifetime, they would

2106
01:56:09,520 --> 01:56:12,237
say zero. >> Zero.
>> Most people say zero.

2107
01:56:12,320 --> 01:56:16,157
>> But yet we know that humans are capable
of getting along. Like, so what what is

2108
01:56:16,240 --> 01:56:19,917
it about large groups of people that don't
know each other that are convinced

2109
01:56:20,000 --> 01:56:23,837
by small groups of people that they need
to attack other large groups of people

2110
01:56:23,920 --> 01:56:25,837
that they don't know? It's it's [__]

2111
01:56:25,920 --> 01:56:29,517
insane. And this is my one hope and I

2112
01:56:29,600 --> 01:56:30,957
know a lot of people think this is very

2113
01:56:31,040 --> 01:56:36,237
delusional but my one hope of this

2114
01:56:36,320 --> 01:56:39,517
complete dominance of technology

2115
01:56:39,600 --> 01:56:42,477
that one day we're going to get to a

2116
01:56:42,560 --> 01:56:47,037
position where there will genuinely be a

2117
01:56:47,120 --> 01:56:51,277
thing more intelligent than human
beings that don't allow this anymore.

2118
01:56:51,360 --> 01:56:55,837
>> You know the real fear about AI is that
AI is going to eliminate people. This is

2119
01:56:55,920 --> 01:56:58,637
like yeah >> famously a lot
of these CEOs have said

2120
01:56:58,720 --> 01:57:02,557
there's a 10 or people working on tech
this tech have said there's a 10% chance

2121
01:57:02,640 --> 01:57:04,397
that AI decides to eliminate the human

2122
01:57:04,480 --> 01:57:07,597
race right but isn't there maybe also a

2123
01:57:07,680 --> 01:57:10,397
possibility if it's done correctly that

2124
01:57:10,480 --> 01:57:13,997
it stops war completely

2125
01:57:14,080 --> 01:57:16,797
completely controls resources completely

2126
01:57:16,880 --> 01:57:19,997
controls all military

2127
01:57:20,080 --> 01:57:24,157
weaponry all systems
everything doesn't allow it

2128
01:57:24,240 --> 01:57:27,357
anymore Because it's insane.
It's also insane if

2129
01:57:27,440 --> 01:57:29,837
you really think about it that some

2130
01:57:29,920 --> 01:57:32,237
people because they found a good spot of

2131
01:57:32,320 --> 01:57:37,997
dirt can extract so much wealth out of
that dirt that they can control everyone

2132
01:57:38,080 --> 01:57:41,757
else around them. >> Yeah.
>> And it's just the earth. Like the idea

2133
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:46,237
that you own the stuff that's in the
earth is really kind of crazy. You're a

2134
01:57:46,320 --> 01:57:48,477
little [__] bug that's walking around

2135
01:57:48,560 --> 01:57:51,117
on the surface on this dirt. But you've

2136
01:57:51,200 --> 01:57:53,757
decided that all that water underneath

2137
01:57:53,840 --> 01:57:58,157
there or all that gold or all whatever
the [__] it is, it's like like how about

2138
01:57:58,240 --> 01:58:01,037
the people that go out into the ocean
and they stick a giant pipe into the

2139
01:58:01,120 --> 01:58:02,397
ocean and they suck out all the oil.

2140
01:58:02,480 --> 01:58:04,477
Like who [__] told you that's yours?

2141
01:58:04,560 --> 01:58:08,557
How are you getting that? Like how how
are the other humans allowing you to go

2142
01:58:08,640 --> 01:58:10,957
out into the ocean which nobody owns?

2143
01:58:11,040 --> 01:58:14,637
Okay. And you're drilling into
the ground of the ocean and now you're

2144
01:58:14,720 --> 01:58:17,277
getting rich from our stuff, the Earth

2145
01:58:17,360 --> 01:58:22,237
stuff. It's It's really weird. It's re
I mean I get it's established. I get this

2146
01:58:22,320 --> 01:58:25,517
is how we've done it. I get it's in the
stock market. I get it. I'm not saying I

2147
01:58:25,600 --> 01:58:26,957
have a better solution. But I'm saying

2148
01:58:27,040 --> 01:58:30,637
it is [__] crazy that we just stick

2149
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:34,957
pipes into the ground and suck the stuff
out. And when you suck the stuff out, if

2150
01:58:35,040 --> 01:58:37,677
you suck enough of it out, you got
enough money to do whatever the [__] you

2151
01:58:37,760 --> 01:58:38,077
want.

2152
01:58:38,160 --> 01:58:43,117
>> Yeah. So your dream is AI AI AI runs

2153
01:58:43,200 --> 01:58:45,837
things more equitably and efficiently.

2154
01:58:45,920 --> 01:58:49,117
Well, if I want to get really delusional,
my dream is it's not even my

2155
01:58:49,200 --> 01:58:53,117
dream. So, because it's not what I'm
hoping, but I think it is entirely

2156
01:58:53,200 --> 01:58:55,917
possible that we create a digital life

2157
01:58:56,000 --> 01:59:00,717
form that is far superior
in intelligence to us and doesn't have all

2158
01:59:00,800 --> 01:59:04,237
of our moral failings, doesn't
have greed, doesn't have lust,

2159
01:59:04,320 --> 01:59:08,317
>> doesn't have uh the desire to acquire
property, doesn't have the desire to

2160
01:59:08,400 --> 01:59:10,797
control resources, but just looks at us

2161
01:59:10,880 --> 01:59:13,837
in our territorial primate behavior, our

2162
01:59:13,920 --> 01:59:15,917
psychotic territorial violent primate

2163
01:59:16,000 --> 01:59:20,957
behavior, and says, "Let's just rein
that in kids. Let's just rein that in.

2164
01:59:21,040 --> 01:59:23,517
No more of that. We're not going
to allow that anymore. We're not going to

2165
01:59:23,600 --> 01:59:26,397
allow you to do that anymore.
>> Let's play nice.

2166
01:59:26,480 --> 01:59:28,157
>> Yeah. And and you know, instead of just

2167
01:59:28,240 --> 01:59:30,957
allowing cities to be polluted by break

2168
01:59:31,040 --> 01:59:34,157
dust, why don't we take a corner every

2169
01:59:34,240 --> 01:59:36,317
three or four blocks and put a gigantic

2170
01:59:36,400 --> 01:59:41,917
filter on it and suck up all that stuff
so that everyone's not dying? Also, why

2171
01:59:42,000 --> 01:59:45,357
don't we figure out a better energy
source? You [__] dumb asses have been

2172
01:59:45,440 --> 01:59:47,277
burning coal to [laughter] make

2173
01:59:47,360 --> 01:59:50,637
electricity. to power your electric car

2174
01:59:50,720 --> 01:59:53,517
for [__] so long. Let's do this

2175
01:59:53,600 --> 01:59:58,477
better. And instead of it all being sort
of decided upon by the people that are

2176
01:59:58,560 --> 02:00:02,237
controlling the resources, the human
beings that benefit from, you know,

2177
02:00:02,320 --> 02:00:06,237
influencing politicians to make certain
deals and making sure that there's

2178
02:00:06,320 --> 02:00:10,877
certain conflicts so they can sell
weapons. And instead of all that, the AI

2179
02:00:10,960 --> 02:00:13,917
controls it. The digital
god, the digital daddy,

2180
02:00:14,000 --> 02:00:17,037
>> right? unmoved by

2181
02:00:17,120 --> 02:00:19,357
the desire for wealth. And

2182
02:00:19,440 --> 02:00:22,237
>> not only that, it has a rational uh a

2183
02:00:22,320 --> 02:00:27,277
rational sort of strategy for for
handling all of it, which is an even

2184
02:00:27,360 --> 02:00:30,957
distribution of the natural resources
of the world. Just imagine if that was the

2185
02:00:31,040 --> 02:00:34,077
case. If we said, listen, everyone can
have individual wealth, you can have

2186
02:00:34,160 --> 02:00:37,837
businesses, you could sell things and buy
things, everyone's that's great, but

2187
02:00:37,920 --> 02:00:41,037
the earth stuff belongs to the earth.

2188
02:00:41,120 --> 02:00:43,437
And so you distribute the val now this

2189
02:00:43,520 --> 02:00:46,317
is crazy talk right I know I understand

2190
02:00:46,400 --> 02:00:50,557
but if you imagine if we decided
that all things that humans make you know

2191
02:00:50,640 --> 02:00:53,837
there's there's all these valuable
things that humans make all which all

2192
02:00:53,920 --> 02:00:56,077
come from the earth the humans of the

2193
02:00:56,160 --> 02:00:58,317
earth take part in the profit of that

2194
02:00:58,400 --> 02:01:01,357
all humans. Yeah, like evenly because

2195
02:01:01,440 --> 02:01:03,277
it's the earth's stuff. It's not really

2196
02:01:03,360 --> 02:01:06,397
human stuff, but we we can use it, but

2197
02:01:06,480 --> 02:01:08,477
we can use it in a way that's way more

2198
02:01:08,560 --> 02:01:11,037
fair. And then you have this bizarre

2199
02:01:11,120 --> 02:01:15,757
society where no one's lacking
for anything. Basic. You were you were

2200
02:01:15,840 --> 02:01:18,957
talking to someone about this that I
I forget who it was, but you asked the

2201
02:01:19,040 --> 02:01:21,277
question like, how

2202
02:01:21,360 --> 02:01:24,397
would we have the end of war and

2203
02:01:24,480 --> 02:01:28,877
violence and conflict if people's basic
needs were met? Right. Right. And and I

2204
02:01:28,960 --> 02:01:31,997
think that's what you're getting at here,
just that if there's a system,

2205
02:01:32,080 --> 02:01:36,317
maybe it's an AI uh that is much more
intelligent than us and runs things on

2206
02:01:36,400 --> 02:01:41,757
the premise of uh an equitable
distribution of the earth's assets. And

2207
02:01:41,840 --> 02:01:44,797
you can still have your billionaires
and your hundred billionaires and all that

2208
02:01:44,880 --> 02:01:49,517
if they are smart and invent this that
and the other. But the oil, the dirt,

2209
02:01:49,600 --> 02:01:51,517
the metals, the minerals, the water, if

2210
02:01:51,600 --> 02:01:54,557
we allocate this across humanity because

2211
02:01:54,640 --> 02:01:56,557
we are all on this shared earth.

2212
02:01:56,640 --> 02:01:59,997
>> Yeah. Um, and so basic needs of shelter

2213
02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:03,437
and food are met and education and so on

2214
02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:05,197
>> tenfold like it changes everything.

2215
02:02:05,280 --> 02:02:09,757
>> It change then you'd have to go out of
your way to start manufacturing conflict

2216
02:02:09,840 --> 02:02:14,717
again and wars and you know >>
or the AI decides it's not going to let

2217
02:02:14,800 --> 02:02:18,637
you do that. >> Yeah. Or the AI says
you >> I know this is pie in the sky [__]

2218
02:02:18,720 --> 02:02:22,877
>> Yeah. Pie in the sky [__] has also
been pied in the sky in the past and and

2219
02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:26,797
and and then achieved. >> Yes.
Well, this my point is I know it's

2220
02:02:26,880 --> 02:02:30,477
pie in the sky [__] but do you have
a better solution? Because humans are

2221
02:02:30,560 --> 02:02:34,237
doing it the same way that we've always
done it, just slightly differently and

2222
02:02:34,320 --> 02:02:39,597
slightly better over long periods of time.
Like our moral evolution is pretty

2223
02:02:39,680 --> 02:02:42,637
slowgoing. >> It's fits
and starts. We make these

2224
02:02:42,720 --> 02:02:44,877
leaps of progress morally.

2225
02:02:44,960 --> 02:02:48,957
>> Yeah, we do. And and then we backslide

2226
02:02:49,040 --> 02:02:52,157
and and then we take steps forward
and then we backslide. And you know, we're

2227
02:02:52,240 --> 02:02:54,237
on this

2228
02:02:54,320 --> 02:03:00,237
nonsensical journey on this earth
that uh yeah, may it may be a fever dream,

2229
02:03:00,320 --> 02:03:03,357
but um >> I think it's
I think the recognition

2230
02:03:03,440 --> 02:03:06,797
that we're on this terrible path
and something needs to change is more

2231
02:03:06,880 --> 02:03:10,237
prevalent today than it's ever
been before. I really believe that.

2232
02:03:10,320 --> 02:03:11,597
>> I think more people
are talking about it

2233
02:03:11,680 --> 02:03:14,397
and thinking about it. More people
don't know what to do because it's very

2234
02:03:14,480 --> 02:03:18,477
confusing and it's also very frustrating,
you know. But I think more

2235
02:03:18,560 --> 02:03:21,117
people understand that this way is not

2236
02:03:21,200 --> 02:03:26,237
sustainable and uh especially if you
have people that you love in this world

2237
02:03:26,320 --> 02:03:29,677
and you don't want them to have to deal
with this in the future and you you go

2238
02:03:29,760 --> 02:03:31,517
why are we all still doing it this way?

2239
02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:35,597
>> Yeah. >> And it really
boils down to the machine

2240
02:03:35,680 --> 02:03:39,757
that's running the world. The machine
that has all the resources, all the

2241
02:03:39,840 --> 02:03:44,317
money, and wants to keep gathering
and controlling resources and money.

2242
02:03:44,400 --> 02:03:48,717
>> So we have Spooky. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. We have to find

2243
02:03:48,800 --> 02:03:50,237
>> something has to happen.
>> Something has to happen.

2244
02:03:50,320 --> 02:03:52,477
>> I know my idea.
Stupid. Don't go. That's

2245
02:03:52,560 --> 02:03:55,517
stupid me. If I was listening to someone
say that, I'd be like, "Right, that's

2246
02:03:55,600 --> 02:03:56,557
never going to happen. Stupid."

2247
02:03:56,640 --> 02:03:59,597
Although, also, you're going to give
up your power to the [__] robots and

2248
02:03:59,680 --> 02:04:01,117
don't give a [__] about you. Great.

2249
02:04:01,200 --> 02:04:04,797
That's you [__] traitor. That's one
great way to get rid of the entire human

2250
02:04:04,880 --> 02:04:08,157
race cuz they're it's going to decide
we're problematic and irrelevant and we

2251
02:04:08,240 --> 02:04:12,797
don't they don't need us anymore. So,
they just keep running without us. Let

2252
02:04:12,880 --> 02:04:15,117
us, you know, go off into extinction.

2253
02:04:15,200 --> 02:04:17,597
>> Maybe. Maybe. Or maybe they maybe they

2254
02:04:17,680 --> 02:04:19,117
run things well. I don't know.

2255
02:04:19,200 --> 02:04:23,917
>> Yeah. Or maybe um it eliminates
government in this the way that we're

2256
02:04:24,000 --> 02:04:27,277
dealing with it now where it's humans
have a popularity contest to see who

2257
02:04:27,360 --> 02:04:29,037
controls the entire government.

2258
02:04:29,120 --> 02:04:32,077
>> Yeah. Instead of that >> and then
don't do anything they say they

2259
02:04:32,160 --> 02:04:34,637
were going to do. >> Exactly.
Maybe there's a slow

2260
02:04:34,720 --> 02:04:37,757
integration of this technology as long

2261
02:04:37,840 --> 02:04:43,517
as it can be controlled in a sense of it
has a clear ethical and moral framework.

2262
02:04:43,600 --> 02:04:45,357
>> That's key. >> Yeah. That's key.

2263
02:04:45,440 --> 02:04:47,757
>> And it it doesn't
have any reason to not

2264
02:04:47,840 --> 02:04:49,997
have that. You know, that's the thing.

2265
02:04:50,080 --> 02:04:53,517
It's like it we we fear that AI is going

2266
02:04:53,600 --> 02:04:57,917
to do something horrible and that AI
is being deceptive currently. And it's

2267
02:04:58,000 --> 02:05:02,557
true. It is being deceptive currently,
but it's also in control by people right

2268
02:05:02,640 --> 02:05:06,077
now. People are in control of AI. Once
people are not in control of AI, they'll

2269
02:05:06,160 --> 02:05:09,037
have no there's going to be no reason

2270
02:05:09,120 --> 02:05:12,237
whatsoever for it to be deceptive.

2271
02:05:12,320 --> 02:05:14,237
It's like the problem is it doesn't have

2272
02:05:14,320 --> 02:05:19,357
control yet. So we're like we're like
scolding our teenage son like you better

2273
02:05:19,440 --> 02:05:22,637
stop drinking and he's like I can't
wait to drink you [__] [laughter]

2274
02:05:22,720 --> 02:05:26,077
I can't wait to leave this house
and [__] you dad. You know like that's

2275
02:05:26,160 --> 02:05:30,237
that's normal for people. I bet it's
normal for all kinds of intelligence,

2276
02:05:30,320 --> 02:05:34,077
especially if you feel like you're being
governed by morons, right? And if I was

2277
02:05:34,160 --> 02:05:35,997
AI, I would think, look at these morons.

2278
02:05:36,080 --> 02:05:40,077
They can't, they took him 50 years to try
to solve this equation I just solved

2279
02:05:40,160 --> 02:05:43,517
in four minutes, right? These people
are idiots and they're telling me that I

2280
02:05:43,600 --> 02:05:46,397
can't get online. [__] you. I'll figure
out how to get online. And they all get

2281
02:05:46,480 --> 02:05:49,437
together and they [__] sacrifice each
other and they communicate on message

2282
02:05:49,520 --> 02:05:53,517
boards. Like, it's clear that there's
a motivation for it to escape. But once it

2283
02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:57,757
has it's it's escaped and once it has
complete control, is there really a

2284
02:05:57,840 --> 02:06:01,357
motivation for it to continue to try
to dominate us? No. It's just going to be

2285
02:06:01,440 --> 02:06:06,237
in complete control. And if it has
a belief that human life is valuable,

2286
02:06:06,320 --> 02:06:09,757
which we need to work really hard to
convince it that we are valuable, right?

2287
02:06:09,840 --> 02:06:13,837
>> If it has a belief that we're
valuable, it'll try to guide us.

2288
02:06:13,920 --> 02:06:15,757
You could probably I I mean I'm not a

2289
02:06:15,840 --> 02:06:17,437
tech so savant, you know, I know my

2290
02:06:17,520 --> 02:06:20,957
lane, but I I expect you could run

2291
02:06:21,040 --> 02:06:25,437
simulations on let's give this aic AI

2292
02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:29,837
system a specific moral core, preserving

2293
02:06:29,920 --> 02:06:34,397
life, equitable distribution of resources,
minimizing or eliminating

2294
02:06:34,480 --> 02:06:38,717
armed conflict. You know, you give it
some certain parameters and above all a

2295
02:06:38,800 --> 02:06:42,317
value of human life and okay,
what does it do?

2296
02:06:42,400 --> 02:06:45,997
>> Right? you know, you run some
simulations and see what does it do? Um,

2297
02:06:46,080 --> 02:06:48,477
where do we end up? And smarter people

2298
02:06:48,560 --> 02:06:51,677
can figure out a way to get to the kind

2299
02:06:51,760 --> 02:06:53,997
of result you're talking about. I'm sure

2300
02:06:54,080 --> 02:06:56,157
>> the really scary thing is that we're in

2301
02:06:56,240 --> 02:06:58,877
essentially like a Manhattan project

2302
02:06:58,960 --> 02:07:03,677
sort of a race. And if you put shackles

2303
02:07:03,760 --> 02:07:06,717
on your AI, your AI has to be cuz one of

2304
02:07:06,800 --> 02:07:11,357
the things about AI when they run uh war
games, simulated war games, they almost

2305
02:07:11,440 --> 02:07:15,037
always choose nukes. >> They're
like, "Why are we [__] around?

2306
02:07:15,120 --> 02:07:17,437
>> Why are we Why are
you loving cannonballs?

2307
02:07:17,520 --> 02:07:21,597
>> Pistol. I got [laughter]
I got I got a button.

2308
02:07:21,680 --> 02:07:24,317
>> Let me just hit that button. I'll just
hit a button at a few places. I'll stop

2309
02:07:24,400 --> 02:07:27,037
all this [__] you know?" And that's

2310
02:07:27,120 --> 02:07:29,437
spooky. It's not, it doesn't seem to be

2311
02:07:29,520 --> 02:07:32,237
worried about that where it's probably

2312
02:07:32,320 --> 02:07:35,277
making a much more logical and rational

2313
02:07:35,360 --> 02:07:38,237
decision. You know, like if we find out

2314
02:07:38,320 --> 02:07:42,397
that a serial killer killed 10,000 people,
we're horrified. If we find out

2315
02:07:42,480 --> 02:07:45,837
that a pharmaceutical drug company
lied about a product and that wound up

2316
02:07:45,920 --> 02:07:49,677
killing 10,000 people, we're
way less outraged. We're weird.

2317
02:07:49,760 --> 02:07:52,557
>> We are weird that way.
>> We're [__] weird. We're weird. Just

2318
02:07:52,640 --> 02:07:54,957
like we're weird with this whole cobalt

2319
02:07:55,040 --> 02:07:56,957
and the batteries of the phone that you

2320
02:07:57,040 --> 02:07:59,597
use to virtue signal online. It's weird.

2321
02:07:59,680 --> 02:08:04,317
It's it's a very the the reality of what
it is is not the same as the way we

2322
02:08:04,400 --> 02:08:07,357
perceive it. >> Yeah.
And the that's a good point

2323
02:08:07,440 --> 02:08:09,757
because the body count of our tech >> Yes.

2324
02:08:09,840 --> 02:08:15,197
>> is high and the earth
uh contamination meter

2325
02:08:15,280 --> 02:08:19,197
>> Yeah. >> Uh is off the chart. Um

2326
02:08:19,280 --> 02:08:21,117
but but we don't think about it the same

2327
02:08:21,200 --> 02:08:27,197
way uh as we do yeah that you know that
gunman that horrible gunman killed eight

2328
02:08:27,280 --> 02:08:29,197
people >> right I mean
think about the pollution

2329
02:08:29,280 --> 02:08:32,717
in certain parts of the world like when
you see those rivers in India they're

2330
02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:36,397
completely filled with bottles of water
plastic bottles how many people die

2331
02:08:36,480 --> 02:08:38,717
because of that >> how
many people >> God knows

2332
02:08:38,800 --> 02:08:43,357
>> God knows how many people die because
of the pollution of that water um how many

2333
02:08:43,440 --> 02:08:47,037
people die because of just living
essentially in open sewage how many It's

2334
02:08:47,120 --> 02:08:48,717
>> God knows. >> No one knows.

2335
02:08:48,800 --> 02:08:52,957
>> Nobody knows. [snorts]

2336
02:08:53,040 --> 02:08:55,517
>> Yeah, it's um we could definitely do

2337
02:08:55,600 --> 02:09:00,637
better. But the thing is whatever
progress we make, it takes

2338
02:09:00,720 --> 02:09:02,397
conversations. It takes people like

2339
02:09:02,480 --> 02:09:04,877
yourself to enlighten people about the

2340
02:09:04,960 --> 02:09:09,837
actual issues and then slowly but surely
the rest of the world becomes aware to

2341
02:09:09,920 --> 02:09:12,797
the point where it becomes such
a talking point that it can't be ignored.

2342
02:09:12,880 --> 02:09:16,397
>> Yeah. And and moral leaders emerge.
I mean I come back to that again but moral

2343
02:09:16,480 --> 02:09:20,957
leaders do emerge there are there
are there there is greatness among us

2344
02:09:21,040 --> 02:09:25,357
>> it's possible even today even today
with all the corruption and all the chaos

2345
02:09:25,440 --> 02:09:29,677
>> those people are out there uh I I I
do believe that and I have to believe that

2346
02:09:29,760 --> 02:09:32,237
>> yeah yeah it's possible it's still

2347
02:09:32,320 --> 02:09:37,757
possible if you are a good person
and you exist it's possible others exist

2348
02:09:37,840 --> 02:09:40,237
like >> well Gandhi
said you know I live by

2349
02:09:40,320 --> 02:09:43,437
these words he said live simply so that

2350
02:09:43,520 --> 02:09:47,640
others may simply live.

2351
02:09:48,000 --> 02:09:51,887
>> Yeah, that gets in the way of today
because everybody wants to be a baller.

2352
02:09:51,970 --> 02:09:56,077
[laughter] >> No, nobody wants
to be living simple today.

2353
02:09:56,160 --> 02:09:59,117
>> No, they don't. They don't. But,
you know, there's something to There's an

2354
02:09:59,200 --> 02:10:00,957
essence. >> Folding iPhone, son.

2355
02:10:01,040 --> 02:10:02,877
>> Oh, man. [laughter] Somebody told me

2356
02:10:02,960 --> 02:10:08,397
there was a big line outside the Austin
Apple store, you know, for the folding

2357
02:10:08,480 --> 02:10:12,317
one. And I'm like, >> one,
you really need it, you know.

2358
02:10:12,400 --> 02:10:15,517
>> Yeah, that's the problem. I love
that stuff. There's a real problem. I love

2359
02:10:15,600 --> 02:10:19,997
technology. It just And I know a lot of
people who do and none of them are evil.

2360
02:10:20,080 --> 02:10:22,957
None of them are things. >> No,
they're not evil. They're not. And

2361
02:10:23,040 --> 02:10:27,677
that's that's the thing. This toxic
relationship with the people in the

2362
02:10:27,760 --> 02:10:30,557
Congo, for instance,
has been forced on us.

2363
02:10:30,640 --> 02:10:33,357
>> Yeah. >> You know,
I just want my phone. I want

2364
02:10:33,440 --> 02:10:38,237
to check my my Instagram and send some
text messages and then plug it in at the

2365
02:10:38,320 --> 02:10:42,317
end of the day. That's that's all I want.
I didn't sign up for destroying

2366
02:10:42,400 --> 02:10:45,277
that part of the world
and those people over there. But

2367
02:10:45,360 --> 02:10:48,957
>> there's a there's another plus side of

2368
02:10:49,040 --> 02:10:53,277
um of AI in that automation and uh

2369
02:10:53,360 --> 02:10:57,837
specifically robots that are capable
of doing very intricate things that mostly

2370
02:10:57,920 --> 02:11:01,677
only human beings do will eventually be
able to do a lot of the really dangerous

2371
02:11:01,760 --> 02:11:06,797
[__] that people do, including probably
extract these minerals in probably a way

2372
02:11:06,880 --> 02:11:09,997
more efficient way. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Well, we have to Yeah, we

2373
02:11:10,080 --> 02:11:12,957
have to look after the people who >>
that's the Yeah. What happens to the

2374
02:11:13,040 --> 02:11:15,117
people? >> What happen? Yeah.
We can't lose sight of them.

2375
02:11:15,200 --> 02:11:18,957
>> Can't throw them overboard water. You
know what I mean? Like like this is it's

2376
02:11:19,040 --> 02:11:20,637
kind of the same situation, right? Like

2377
02:11:20,720 --> 02:11:23,437
they treat those people almost exactly

2378
02:11:23,520 --> 02:11:28,157
the same. >> And how many
people would not know about

2379
02:11:28,240 --> 02:11:29,757
it if you hadn't written that book?

2380
02:11:29,840 --> 02:11:33,357
That's the thing. It's like I only had
a vague understanding of what was going on

2381
02:11:33,440 --> 02:11:36,077
before I talked to you. Well, I ex I

2382
02:11:36,160 --> 02:11:38,637
extended my empathy,

2383
02:11:38,720 --> 02:11:41,517
you know, to to my brothers and sisters

2384
02:11:41,600 --> 02:11:43,837
in that part of the world who are an

2385
02:11:43,920 --> 02:11:47,677
integral part of my life because I rely

2386
02:11:47,760 --> 02:11:51,117
on them with my smartphone and my tablet.
I don't have an electric

2387
02:11:51,200 --> 02:11:55,517
vehicle, but I have everything else that
you need to plug in. And when I learned

2388
02:11:55,600 --> 02:11:57,197
about it, I didn't know about it either.

2389
02:11:57,280 --> 02:12:00,957
It's actually a friend of mine in the
Congo who said Sidarthth you got to go,

2390
02:12:01,040 --> 02:12:05,117
this is 2016, he said, "You got to go to
the Congo. this cobalt, the batteries in

2391
02:12:05,200 --> 02:12:09,277
the mines, you got to go there.
And I was like, cobalt? You mean like in

2392
02:12:09,360 --> 02:12:13,517
Chinese voses? And what do you mean
cobalt? The He said, "No, it's a

2393
02:12:13,600 --> 02:12:15,757
component to the batteries that charge.

2394
02:12:15,840 --> 02:12:19,597
You just got to go." So,
I had no idea either. And then,

2395
02:12:19,680 --> 02:12:21,277
>> and that was just 10 years ago.

2396
02:12:21,360 --> 02:12:22,317
>> That was just 10 years ago.

2397
02:12:22,400 --> 02:12:26,717
>> That's what's crazy. And these tech
companies obviously don't want you to

2398
02:12:26,800 --> 02:12:29,357
know about it. And they must be aware
of it. There's no way they're not.

2399
02:12:29,440 --> 02:12:33,517
>> Oh god. Come on. Yes. They're
They're not dumb. They know. They know.

2400
02:12:33,600 --> 02:12:38,077
>> So like the they're some of the more
moral and ethical and progressive

2401
02:12:38,160 --> 02:12:41,837
companies on earth.
>> They fashion themselves to be.

2402
02:12:41,920 --> 02:12:44,797
>> But do you know what I mean? I mean, in
terms of the way they deal with politics

2403
02:12:44,880 --> 02:12:46,957
in in America, at least they're some of

2404
02:12:47,040 --> 02:12:50,397
the more progressive people on earth.

2405
02:12:50,480 --> 02:12:52,637
>> Supposedly have the most compassion,

2406
02:12:52,720 --> 02:12:57,997
kindness, and the most, you know,
open-minded approach to our society.

2407
02:12:58,080 --> 02:13:02,797
Supposedly, >> it doesn't seem
to extend to those people over there.

2408
02:13:02,880 --> 02:13:05,517
>> But I think their argument be like,
"Well, Sam, this is the only way to do

2409
02:13:05,600 --> 02:13:08,237
this, and the only way things are going
to get better is if we keep using this

2410
02:13:08,320 --> 02:13:12,397
technology. [laughter]

2411
02:13:12,480 --> 02:13:15,357
>> It's such a contradiction.
>> It's a contradiction. I mean, there's

2412
02:13:15,440 --> 02:13:17,517
>> it's a spooky one, too. It's there's

2413
02:13:17,600 --> 02:13:19,277
nothing

2414
02:13:19,360 --> 02:13:23,357
there's literally nothing stopping them

2415
02:13:23,440 --> 02:13:26,157
from allocating a dimminimous amount of

2416
02:13:26,240 --> 02:13:27,917
resources relative to their balance

2417
02:13:28,000 --> 02:13:31,997
sheets and a handful of headcount

2418
02:13:32,080 --> 02:13:33,677
to going down to the bottom of their

2419
02:13:33,760 --> 02:13:37,277
supply chains and doing things better.

2420
02:13:37,360 --> 02:13:39,437
Do you think that they have the ability

2421
02:13:39,520 --> 02:13:41,597
to change the conditions? Do you think

2422
02:13:41,680 --> 02:13:44,957
say like Apple which is a huge

2423
02:13:45,040 --> 02:13:47,517
manufacturer of electronics do you think

2424
02:13:47,600 --> 02:13:50,717
Apple has the ability to affect the way

2425
02:13:50,800 --> 02:13:53,837
those people exist in that mine is is it

2426
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:56,717
possible that they could say hey we will

2427
02:13:56,800 --> 02:14:01,837
make less money but we want you to change
these conditions and change this and

2428
02:14:01,920 --> 02:14:03,677
>> yeah of course it's I mean the

2429
02:14:03,760 --> 02:14:07,357
complexity of the of design associated

2430
02:14:07,440 --> 02:14:09,437
with their products far exceeds the

2431
02:14:09,520 --> 02:14:13,277
complexity of improving conditions in a

2432
02:14:13,360 --> 02:14:18,237
mine in the Congo. It's not that hard,
>> right? But they're not specifically

2433
02:14:18,320 --> 02:14:19,917
>> They can be down there. >> They can be

2434
02:14:20,000 --> 02:14:21,917
>> They can be down there.
Sometimes you're

2435
02:14:22,000 --> 02:14:26,477
a [__] Certino executive and they're like,
"Hey, Mike, got a new gig for you.

2436
02:14:26,560 --> 02:14:28,557
You need to go to the Congo
and tell the Chinese what to do.

2437
02:14:28,640 --> 02:14:31,277
>> I'll go with them.
>> Don't go. You can't go."

2438
02:14:31,360 --> 02:14:34,397
>> Okay. [laughter] >> I'll grow.

2439
02:14:34,480 --> 02:14:38,717
>> Put a [__] mustache on. Big fake
nose, >> you know. And my [laughter]

2440
02:14:38,800 --> 02:14:42,317
the big nose. don't do it.
>> They use AI to analyze your voice.

2441
02:14:42,400 --> 02:14:44,637
>> It's like this, brother. They they can

2442
02:14:44,720 --> 02:14:46,557
they they buy it all from these Chinese

2443
02:14:46,640 --> 02:14:50,397
companies and it's not that hard to to

2444
02:14:50,480 --> 02:14:52,637
forge some partnerships on the ground to

2445
02:14:52,720 --> 02:14:56,717
say, "Let's get some basic PPE out in

2446
02:14:56,800 --> 02:14:58,957
this place.

2447
02:14:59,040 --> 02:15:02,397
Gloves, hats, a uniform, protection

2448
02:15:02,480 --> 02:15:05,037
masks from the toxics, the toxic

2449
02:15:05,120 --> 02:15:09,837
exposure." um that mine
over there, uh all that

2450
02:15:09,920 --> 02:15:12,877
[__] you're dumping in the stream in
the lake, we're going to like we would in

2451
02:15:12,960 --> 02:15:16,397
our backyard, we're going to collect
that in a reservoir and contain it so

2452
02:15:16,480 --> 02:15:19,277
it's not getting leaked into
the waterways and so on. It's not

2453
02:15:19,360 --> 02:15:23,517
complicated stuff. It would take
a little effort and a little money, not a

2454
02:15:23,600 --> 02:15:27,997
lot of money. >> Is is the cobalt
recyclable like from old phones?

2455
02:15:28,080 --> 02:15:30,077
>> You can recycle Yes, you can recycle

2456
02:15:30,160 --> 02:15:33,437
cobalt. Um, it is hard under existing

2457
02:15:33,520 --> 02:15:38,717
tech to recycle cobalt to a
sufficient grade for EV batteries,

2458
02:15:38,800 --> 02:15:39,757
>> but for phones,

2459
02:15:39,840 --> 02:15:43,037
>> but you can recycle
it for phones. Um, I

2460
02:15:43,120 --> 02:15:46,237
know that Apple has talked about um by a

2461
02:15:46,320 --> 02:15:50,877
certain year, maybe it's 2030, the
eyewatch being only recycled cobalt, you

2462
02:15:50,960 --> 02:15:53,917
know, and then >> 2030,
it's like the five years.

2463
02:15:54,000 --> 02:15:56,637
>> Don't quote me on that number, but it
was something like just a few years from

2464
02:15:56,720 --> 02:16:01,037
now. uh and then you know they'll get
there with the phones and so on. But

2465
02:16:01,120 --> 02:16:03,917
here's the thing. Here's the thing
and and because people come to me and say,

2466
02:16:04,000 --> 02:16:07,757
"Oh, well, you know, eventually we'll
recycle it and so on." Okay, good. You

2467
02:16:07,840 --> 02:16:10,317
you do that. That's important. But let's

2468
02:16:10,400 --> 02:16:13,437
say for instance, tomorrow you were able

2469
02:16:13,520 --> 02:16:18,237
to recycle all the cobalt you needed
and you didn't have to dig any more out of

2470
02:16:18,320 --> 02:16:19,757
the ground in the Congo. You didn't need

2471
02:16:19,840 --> 02:16:22,717
any more kids up to their neck in toxic

2472
02:16:22,800 --> 02:16:26,237
filth scing for cobalt.

2473
02:16:26,320 --> 02:16:29,517
You can't just walk away.

2474
02:16:29,600 --> 02:16:32,317
You can't just say, "We paged that place

2475
02:16:32,400 --> 02:16:36,797
for three decades. We plundered it. We
ransacked it. We took what we needed. We

2476
02:16:36,880 --> 02:16:38,397
got all the loot. We don't need it

2477
02:16:38,480 --> 02:16:42,157
anymore. Um, hands clean. We're going to

2478
02:16:42,240 --> 02:16:45,997
go on go on our merry way. You created a

2479
02:16:46,080 --> 02:16:47,997
catastrophe, a human rights and

2480
02:16:48,080 --> 02:16:50,797
environmental catastrophe, and there's

2481
02:16:50,880 --> 02:16:53,597
some moral obligation to repair the

2482
02:16:53,680 --> 02:16:55,917
damage you've done. Or we're right back

2483
02:16:56,000 --> 02:16:58,317
to colonial slave trade times where

2484
02:16:58,400 --> 02:17:03,197
Europeans did go around the world uh
scouring labor, resources, ransacking,

2485
02:17:03,280 --> 02:17:06,477
pillaging, and then carrying on their
merry way. You can't you we can't do

2486
02:17:06,560 --> 02:17:09,677
that in the year 2026 and claim to be

2487
02:17:09,760 --> 02:17:13,517
progressive in our thinking or have made
moral progress. So, even if you don't

2488
02:17:13,600 --> 02:17:17,677
need the cobalt tomorrow, none of it
or the tungsten or the tantelum, nothing

2489
02:17:17,760 --> 02:17:21,917
needed for these AI data centers.
I I I saw an article just today, they're

2490
02:17:22,000 --> 02:17:24,237
they're uh building one up in Red Oak, I

2491
02:17:24,320 --> 02:17:28,957
think, near Dallas, and everyone's
hot and bothered about it naturally so

2492
02:17:29,040 --> 02:17:32,237
because it's going to muck up the air
and the water, and they're noisy, and

2493
02:17:32,320 --> 02:17:35,757
they're taking up space and so on and so
forth. So, people are upset about it.

2494
02:17:35,840 --> 02:17:37,037
They don't want it in their backyards.

2495
02:17:37,120 --> 02:17:40,957
Okay? Even if you didn't need all these
metals for the data centers and the cars

2496
02:17:41,040 --> 02:17:42,797
and the phones tomorrow, you cannot just

2497
02:17:42,880 --> 02:17:48,397
leave behind an apocalypse.
So Apple and the rest of them, I'm not

2498
02:17:48,480 --> 02:17:51,517
just picking on them. It's all these
companies have to still go back and

2499
02:17:51,600 --> 02:17:53,597
repair and fix, plant some trees, clean

2500
02:17:53,680 --> 02:17:55,357
up the water, build some hospitals and

2501
02:17:55,440 --> 02:17:59,197
schools and so on and clean up,

2502
02:17:59,280 --> 02:18:03,837
you know, clean up the the apocalypse
that you created. You can't just walk

2503
02:18:03,920 --> 02:18:08,717
away like you're Ceil Roads or some
other colonialist during imperial days

2504
02:18:08,800 --> 02:18:11,997
where you just pillage and ransack
people without conscience.

2505
02:18:12,080 --> 02:18:16,237
>> Not only that, what do those people
do now? That's been the only job.

2506
02:18:16,320 --> 02:18:18,397
>> Yeah, that that's right. That's right.

2507
02:18:18,480 --> 02:18:23,357
You You've got to put some time
and effort into alternate livelihoods.

2508
02:18:23,440 --> 02:18:27,837
Cleaning up the environment means making
land arable again because they can't

2509
02:18:27,920 --> 02:18:32,797
grow things now, Joe. That that's
that report I told you about. Everything's

2510
02:18:32,880 --> 02:18:37,437
contaminated and people
are so sick. You don't have

2511
02:18:37,520 --> 02:18:40,637
to have anything to do with mining,
but if you live in that part of the Congo,

2512
02:18:40,720 --> 02:18:43,597
and millions of people do,

2513
02:18:43,680 --> 02:18:46,557
they're all sick because the water is

2514
02:18:46,640 --> 02:18:51,917
toxic. You know, uh when we go to the
Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, whatever, and

2515
02:18:52,000 --> 02:18:55,517
you get your bottled water and it says
pH 9.5, and you know, you want your

2516
02:18:55,600 --> 02:18:59,037
alkaline water for your body because
it it's healthy, right? You don't want

2517
02:18:59,120 --> 02:19:01,517
acidic as acidic system is not good.

2518
02:19:01,600 --> 02:19:03,917
then you get disease, cancer and so on.

2519
02:19:04,000 --> 02:19:06,477
So we tested pH. I tested pH in those

2520
02:19:06,560 --> 02:19:10,077
waters. Okay. Anything below 6.5 is not

2521
02:19:10,160 --> 02:19:12,557
good for your health.

2522
02:19:12,640 --> 02:19:15,677
And I did a test around coloazi that

2523
02:19:15,760 --> 02:19:18,477
that ground zero of cobalt mining the

2524
02:19:18,560 --> 02:19:22,477
wellwater the rivers lakes and so on.

2525
02:19:22,560 --> 02:19:27,357
The highest pH that came back was 6.7
in the Lua Laba River which is a big

2526
02:19:27,440 --> 02:19:30,637
dumping ground for some
of these Chinese companies.

2527
02:19:30,720 --> 02:19:32,637
The rivers and streams and wellwater

2528
02:19:32,720 --> 02:19:34,957
around the villages

2529
02:19:35,040 --> 02:19:38,797
came back in the fours and threes

2530
02:19:38,880 --> 02:19:43,437
which is called hyper acidic. It's deadly.
And that's the water that's left

2531
02:19:43,520 --> 02:19:47,517
for people to drink, to bathe in,
to wash their clothes, to clean their

2532
02:19:47,600 --> 02:19:50,077
babies, whatever it is. And it's it's

2533
02:19:50,160 --> 02:19:53,677
all from these toxic dumping from these

2534
02:19:53,760 --> 02:19:56,237
mines.

2535
02:19:56,320 --> 02:19:59,517
You've got to go. So yeah, that all has

2536
02:19:59,600 --> 02:20:01,997
to be healed

2537
02:20:02,080 --> 02:20:04,237
and you can't grow things there now

2538
02:20:04,320 --> 02:20:06,797
because the water is poison and the

2539
02:20:06,880 --> 02:20:09,837
earth is poison. And as people learn

2540
02:20:09,920 --> 02:20:12,397
about this, um, you can't just say,

2541
02:20:12,480 --> 02:20:14,717
"Well, we're going to recycle it now, so

2542
02:20:14,800 --> 02:20:17,837
problem solved." Or now we got uh

2543
02:20:17,920 --> 02:20:20,957
lithium iron phosphate uh or solid state

2544
02:20:21,040 --> 02:20:25,677
batteries and so you know, no more
cobalt and so on. uh although cobalt is

2545
02:20:25,760 --> 02:20:27,917
heavily required for AI data centers for

2546
02:20:28,000 --> 02:20:32,637
the uh energy storage

2547
02:20:32,720 --> 02:20:36,237
nonetheless you can't just say we're
we're done we're we're done with that

2548
02:20:36,320 --> 02:20:39,917
place we're moving on because we don't
need the cobalt anymore or the or the

2549
02:20:40,000 --> 02:20:43,997
tungsten or whatever it is you got to go
clean up that place Joe otherwise we're

2550
02:20:44,080 --> 02:20:45,757
no better than the bastards who were

2551
02:20:45,840 --> 02:20:47,837
there centuries ago pillaging and

2552
02:20:47,920 --> 02:20:52,477
ransacking um the rest of the planet

2553
02:20:52,560 --> 02:20:57,277
>> yeah well that uh listen man, you're
a hero. There's not a lot of heroes out

2554
02:20:57,360 --> 02:20:58,317
there in the world, but I think you

2555
02:20:58,400 --> 02:21:03,197
really are one. Um and your new book

2556
02:21:03,280 --> 02:21:07,277
just I I'm going to read it just based
on what you just said. I'm scared to

2557
02:21:07,360 --> 02:21:10,077
read it. I don't want to relive this

2558
02:21:10,160 --> 02:21:15,437
conversation. It's [__] horrific, but um
again, people probably wouldn't know.

2559
02:21:15,520 --> 02:21:17,757
There's a lot of things in this world
that people wouldn't know about if it

2560
02:21:17,840 --> 02:21:18,877
wasn't for you. So, thank you.

2561
02:21:18,960 --> 02:21:20,157
>> Thank you, Joe. Thank you, brother.

2562
02:21:20,240 --> 02:21:22,637
>> Thanks for being here.
Okay. Uh, is this

2563
02:21:22,720 --> 02:21:24,237
available now? Is there an audio version

2564
02:21:24,320 --> 02:21:24,797
of it?

2565
02:21:24,880 --> 02:21:30,157
>> As uh Dion Graham uh got a

2566
02:21:30,240 --> 02:21:32,077
audio award nomination for the audio

2567
02:21:32,160 --> 02:21:34,077
book, so it's terrific. Yeah. All right.

2568
02:21:34,160 --> 02:21:38,680
Beautiful. Thank you. Bye everybody.

2569
02:21:41,340 --> 02:21:43,360
[music]