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from Vanity Fair. This is Fair Game.
I'm Mark Aduchi. I sat down with Alman for

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two interviews in San Francisco. The

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first on September 11th and then again

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today, October 2nd. In those weeks, the

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story about AI seemed to turn upside
down about half a dozen times. I should

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note before we begin that Condas, Vanity
Fair's parent company, has a content

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licensing agreement with OpenAI. Both

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interviews with Altman are live now.

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This is [music] part two.

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Sam, it's good to see you again. You, too.

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>> Uh, we sat in this room three weeks
ago and so much has happened since. This

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past week, you introduced the world to
your new product, Dots. You described it

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as like an AI helper that always has

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your back, inspired by the cool versions
of what we watched in movies growing up.

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Sam, what's a Dot? >> Before
I get to literally what it is,

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this this is the product
I have been waiting for.

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>> Um, I like this. I think more than any

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product we've ever launched it. The fact
that it gets to know me as I work. The

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fact that it's just kind of like always

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working and taking on the stuff that I

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didn't want to do. I I noticed that and
I'm sure many other people have this too

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that I like let the tasks I most don't
want to deal with just pile up and pile

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up and it becomes this like gravity well
of dread and it's just sitting there.

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And the fact that my dot is going

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through my email, going through my like

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to-do list of just stuff that is not
pleasant for me to do and where I don't

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add much value and it's just like

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knocking that out with undefeable spirit

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and energy uh is amazing and I and I

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really feel like I have
this thing working for me all

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>> it somehow feels assistant
is the mental model that I had

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in mind when we started working on the
And I think that is probably how people

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still are talking about it, but it feels

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much more like a sort of extension of me.

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>> Is it just an avatar of you? Like
is that a good way of thinking about it

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that it it knows [clears throat] what
you want to say to those emails and is

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getting getting back to them or >> No,
I I like I I think that we've I have

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figured out this like good workflow
where uh I called my dot yesterday while

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I had some time and I was just like
here's a set of ideas. Went off and did

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a bunch of work. By the time I got back
to my computer, there was a bunch of

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things where my doc had sent me
a message in Slack being like, uh, I, you

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know, did all this work. These it's bad
ideas for these reasons. I also found

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this other stuff on your computer.
I proactively talked to three people on

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the team and I was like, all right,
let's do these things and let's keep

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going. And it was just a completely new

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way of trying to get a new idea towards

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reality. I'm curious like for that to be

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effective it must have access
to everything right because I remember

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we're almost the same age when I got
to college I immediately got on Facebook

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and was like >> I think we
were a little naive we just

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everyone was like free-for-all
you know >> it was a freeall

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>> and no one even thought about data how

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does living through Facebook

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impact how you think about
privacy with dots particularly

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we have to be extremely extremely um

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rigorous about privacy for this to work.

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But I I was actually thinking about this

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the other day. I I am

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kind of sad about where

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technology has evolved to in many ways
because I feel like it is constantly

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taking my attention. You know,
my phone I finally turned off

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almost all notifications on my phone.

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It's way better. But it's like a crazy
way to live your life with your phone

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just buzzing at you non-stop. My hope

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for the world is that we're going to

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automate the bad parts of life and then

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give people more effort, ability,
time to do the good parts and express

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their [snorts] creative
spirit or, you know, push on

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something they care about or help their
community. And in my own use, I found

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out that one of the things I value
the most, no surprise to anyone, is these

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small moments of human connection.
And if it's like my dot is messaging yours

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and like that feels really just bad like

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I I want to send you the text. So last
time we spoke here you were really eager

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to talk about Astra the latest version

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of chat BT but last week you delayed the

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latest release of Astra 6.1 after the

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model failed to meet safety standards.

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How did you come to that decision and

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what was Astra doing that means it's not

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ready for the public?
these these models are in the like

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serious capable seriously capable era now.
And so the kind of decisions where

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I think a year ago we could have very
reasonably said, you know, just put this

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out in the world. It's maybe a little
unsafe, but nothing that bad is going to

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happen and people, you know, we want

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people to benefit from it. Is it's

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different now. And and I think that

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as the capabilities continue to increase,
that the bar we will hold for

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ourselves on safety is going to go
higher and higher. Now, of course, you

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could say, and I think some of our
colleagues in the industry would say,

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that this stuff is just way too
dangerous to release. Only a couple of

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companies should have it or one company
or one person should have it. Uh, and

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that is also not right. So, there are
kind of two major ways that this could

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go wrong. And I think the Astra 6.1 is

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an interesting thing to study here.
You can have a big safety accident

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eventually. one that leads to like
a real loss of control where AI, you know,

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escapes and it's out doing wrecking
havoc on the internet and society can't

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really get control back. You know,
AI is so much more capable than us and so

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smart that it's doing things that we
don't understand and we don't know how

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to stop it. Like this is the
thing from the sci-fi movies.

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On the other hand, you could have AI
have way too much power concentration,

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lead to way too much power concentration

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in a small number of companies or people

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or maybe like one country and if you
don't release at all, you can fall off

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that way. And again, I think there's
a lot of people just like we just want the

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control here. We have to navigate this

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like pragmatic middle path down down the

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center of this and

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6.1 Astra the current model we had ready

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to go I think would have tipped too much

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towards the accident risk. So what we're

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doing instead is pushing towards a

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model that we will still be able
to distribute very broadly and we're

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committed to do that even though it's
going to take a little longer but much

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we can make much more confident claims
about the alignment. So then this is a

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good example of self-regulation
of saying we're not going to release this

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product because we've determined for XYZ

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reasons not yet it's not yet safe. Um,

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which brings us to this week.
President Trump and AI

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executives, including Open AI's
President Greg Brockman, signed an

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accord on super intelligence.
It essentially is an agreement for the AI

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companies to self-regulate. As I read it,
I mean, it sounds like Trump wants

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you guys to police yourselves.

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You told me 3 weeks ago, we need
our governments to step up. And then went

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even further the next week when you
went to the UN. You said if AI is to be

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democratic, the most important decisions
cannot be made by labs in San Francisco

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alone. Does this new accord fall short
in your view? I think it's a good start.

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I think it's like much better than
nothing. Um, I remain of the belief that

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we are going to need

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more over time. Um, but for like the

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models of kind of useless this thing,
it's a piece of paper that has a typo on

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it. [laughter] Um I don't
think that's quite fair. I

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mean I mean yes in some sense it has
no real power. On the other hand I think

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there is always like social force behind

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these things and um it's a gesture

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people will point to it and I think
it'll have some power inside in between

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these companies. What do you think is

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the next step that you would like to

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see? I think with all of these questions

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about next steps, we are in

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the realm of powerful enough models that

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it is difficult to predict the specific

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things that will go wrong in what order.

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Um, and I think politics and policy
is going to be very reactive to the

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specific things that go wrong. So

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>> if the next big thing that goes wrong
is like someone makes a novel pathogen, I

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think that will have a very different

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response than if the next thing that

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goes wrong is more cyber security or

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people feeling like, you know,
businesses can't succeed because the

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model companies stop
giving access. So I I think

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policy makers still have not really felt

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the exponential that we're on. And I

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would guess the world in general will be
caught off guard by the next thing that

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goes really wrong. But what's your
stance on it? like what's your can you

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clarify you or your company's position

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on government regulation because you

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have said you've preached
almost like regulate us

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>> sometimes the actions of the company

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whether it's lobbying in the EU or

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California or >> Greg
Brockman's political donations

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don't always seem to be aligned
with that idea. So can you clarify your

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stance on

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regulation? Yeah, I mean this is

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obviously not a binary thing. It's not

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like I I I think it's like really easy
for people to say either you are for all

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regulation or you're against all
regulation. And I don't agree with you

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in that framing. Um I think it's very
reasonable for us to say like given what

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we see on the technology with the
technology and given that we are trying

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to balance between these
two really important things

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>> um we're going to be in the gray area
in between here. there's going to like we

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really want people to have the technology.
We really want the US to

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win. We really want this to be something
that all people get to use and control

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and have a voice in the future. Not just
like okay fine AI is giving you a cure

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for cancer, but really get to like use

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to shape where the future's going to go.

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And we are willing to accept some

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things going wrong to make sure that

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this is like a widely held and used and

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democratic technology. What do you
mean by some things going wrong?

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Um,

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I think for example, I support open

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source models. Uh, there is a coming
title wave of cyber security problems

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that are going to come from these open
source models. Now, we're trying to help

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the world be ready for that by saying
we've got a little bit of a lead. We

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want to help you defend. Um, but there
are people in the industry who say we

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should ban open source because otherwise
a bunch of systems are going to be

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hacked. And I don't think that price of

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liberty is worth it. And we're going
to as a society, I think have to just

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accept some fairly severe
cyber incidents from

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open models in exchange for the
liberty that comes with that.

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>> What's the

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what's the limit of that that we accept?

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I mean that is the political process

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like how we determine what

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>> you know safety is always like
negotiated between stakeholders like

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airplanes are generally thought of as

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very extremely safe things still
sometimes crash so like the limits on

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how much we accept for the benefits
like that is not something that I think

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highly regulated >> that's that's
an industry with extreme regulation

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>> totally in the past week or so Jensen

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Hang and Bill Gates have come out as

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kind of very different uh with
different approaches to this. Hang

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said recently in the New York Times,
"The right answer is don't ship products

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until they're in control.
It's really quite simple."

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Pacing being self-regulated.
Whereas Bill Gates said this is the most

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dangerous thing that humans have ever
gone near. And in other areas, do you

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just release drugs without the FDA? He

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brings up aviation. So if they're

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kind of opposites in those views
and you're saying it's a gray area in the

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middle, can you define that a little
bit more clearly? Like what are the

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principles for safety
and regulation that you stick with?

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>> Here are some things that I think have
gone well in other industries we should

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learn from. Um I think one principle
for learning how to make a new technology

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safe is very clear [snorts]
and transparent and kind of like extract

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maximum learning out of accident
reporting. So, I think the NTSB, we

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talked about airplanes and cars. These
have gotten remarkably safe and I think

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there there's been an amazing culture
of accident reporting or incident

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reporting, I don't know what they call it,
one of those two. Um, that has

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helped do that. So, I think that's
a good thing. Um, another is yeah, I think

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like pre-release standards and a

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liability framework. Um, we earlier did

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uh testing before we released a model
but not until after we finished

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training. We're now saying that actually
even during training things can now go

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wrong. This is like a new stage where
the models are so smart that they can

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get out of a sandbox, hack into a system,
things like that. So, also in

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the news this week, it was reported
that OpenAI President Greg Brockman backed

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out of a $25 million commitment to

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leading the future super PAC who that is

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generally speaking opposes strong AI
AI regulation. uh he and his wife had

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previously already donated$2 million and

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they had donated $25 million to

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President Trump's re-election campaign.

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Did you personally ask Greg to withdraw

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his pledge and how much daylight
is there between your views on regulation

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and Greg's? >> Can I
finish my answer the other

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question because it actually touches
on this one but then we'll answer it. Um

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what I was going to say in terms of like

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where we are on the answer for

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regulation it is uh you don't want to

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overregulate to a degree that people

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don't get the benefits and that new
entrance and you know random kids with

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ideas cannot build all the stuff we're
going to do in the future. And part of

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why I think the internet was so magical
and why the US did so well is that we

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accepted some things going a little
bit wrong to give people the freedom and

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liberty and you know
that was that was good but

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unlike other kinds of technology
not all like you know we've seen some

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extraordinarily powerful technologies
in our history the potential downside here

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may not be the kind of thing normally
goes wrong that we can correct we have a

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legal system for um but that something
goes super wrong like in the extreme

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extreme case back to what we talked

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about of you know we we lose control of

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the future to AI which is horrific. So

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my stance on regulation is

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pro- innovation, let some
things go normally wrong and

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trust that we have a normal process for
doing this. But where this technology is

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extraordinarily powerful and

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fundamentally new, have guardrails to

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ensure that all of society is kept

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reasonably safe and we don't have we
don't kind of fall off that path in

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either direction in what could be a very

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difficult or unreoverable way. So, so do

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you think Greg is on the same page with
that? On to that. I was going to say I

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think Greg is on the same page as that.

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I don't want to speak for him. You'd
have to ask him, but I think he would

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give you a very similar take. I did not
ask him to donate or not, you know, stop

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donating. He's like can make his own
person >> because when you look at it

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holistically, it's like you're
saying something, the company's saying

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something, but then there's lobbying
efforts or executive donations that seem

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to speak to a different thing. So,
>> I don't think that's a fair cut. Like I

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I again I don't want to like you should
ask Greg. I don't have to speak for him

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on this but I don't I don't think
Greg would say he's like against all AI

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regulation or has any of his
contributions have ever expressed that

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view. Okay. Let's talk about the Chinese
state visit because when we were in this

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room you told me that you were looking
forward to Xiinping meeting with

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President Trump at the White House.
What you said was these two leaders could

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make tremendous progress and then
you attended the state dinner.

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It didn't feel like there was tremendous
progress from that visit, but you know,

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a lot happens behind closed doors. What
was the biggest takeaway from that night

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that the public has not
really heard about yet?

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>> I don't really know either. Um, I was I
mean, it was like a nice dinner, but uh

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the substant I was not in the room
for the substantive conversations.

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>> Okay. At that state dinner, Trump
offered guests a tour of the ballroom.

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Yeah. >> Did you take him up on the offer?

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>> Very briefly. >> What was it like?

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>> It's a construction site. It's big.

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Anything more? It's it's still like a

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very raw construction site.

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>> Okay, because here's how that dinner

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looks, right? I mean, you have the leaders
of this industry who are some of

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the richest people in the world with
the two most powerful men in the world

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arguably, and Trump gets up there and

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doesn't say one thing about AI, which is

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what the whole world is hoping

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he will lead on or that someone will
lead on. It was an opportunity for

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leadership that he seems to have just

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skirted to talk about this ballroom.

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It's the elephant in the ballroom.

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[snorts] >> I I heard
they did talk about it

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earlier. I mean, you know, like I think

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as I have never hosted another president
first day dinner obviously, but when

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I've done the business version of this,

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we will often do

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difficult work all day and then by the
time dinner comes, people are like very

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tired or anything like
ahead of time or after

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the CEOs. Um, but I know that the two
presidents spent a lot of time.

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>> Okay. I worry about him representing an

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industry that he seems to not quite

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understand. You have thought about the

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subject of AI for longer than almost

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anybody. Is the extinction risk from AI

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overhyped? >> Well,
the fact that there's any at all,

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the fact that it is like a nonzero zero,

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>> uh, I think is something that we all

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should take incredibly seriously.
And part of why we formed OpenAI is the

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mission to make sure that doesn't happen.

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>> But you know that there's some people

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are saying that that it's very canny

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marketing or that it contributes to a

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bubble or that it's some collaborative

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00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,837
effort to block newcomers to the AI

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market. Is that just cynical? Is that

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just um analysis on analysis?

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>> I assume some people are using it as a

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way to justify power seeking power
concentration. Um, but that doesn't mean

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there's not a real risk here. The thing
I don't like about the conversation is

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when people say like this is so risky,
there's this, you know, whatever percent

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chance we better hurdle towards it as

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fast as we can. Like I think the

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constructive thing here is

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yes, there are risks.
We are all here to mitigate those risks

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to let people get the benefits. But before
we do that to ensure that there's

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not going to be a really bad thing and

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we need to talk with the world and kind
of collaborate on how to make sure that

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that happens and people understand
how that's happening. Um,

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00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,917
we also need to work to avoid using
this as a maybe not maybe marketing is too

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negative, but like a way to justify
power concentration and society has got

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to like decide on the particulars of the

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trade-offs here. There was a report this
week in the New York Times claiming that

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your company ignored warnings from
employees to top executives months

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00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,157
before the Hugging Pace incident.
Do you refute that or is that

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00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,837
>> I'm not familiar with that specific
report? I mean, look, you can probably

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00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,637
you can complain to me like, "Oh, you're
delaying a model." Or you can complain

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to me like, "Oh, you're like, you know,

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00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,797
ignoring warning signs or many other

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things and like the answer is

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>> we're going to make I'm going to make

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many individual decisions you clearly
won't like and you'll say, "Oh, you're

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00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,077
like marketing and you're scaring people
or oh, you're delaying a release or oh,

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00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,837
you're like trying to, you know,
you're ignoring warning signs and you need

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something to write about every day."
I get it. I really do. My goal is to

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navigate this path and I won't get every
decision right. Um, but making sure that

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we

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00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,997
let the whole world have
agency and authority and

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the ability to self-determine their
future and make their own lives and

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00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,077
their communities lives
better while avoiding

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00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,917
a and you know not seeing the power
concentrate in my company or any other

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company while avoiding safety things.

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And so I'm sure you can always find
someone who's going to say like, "Ah,

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00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,477
Sam shouldn't have made this decision
or that decision." You can come try making

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00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,157
them all. They're not so easy. Um, but if
you look at the trajectory of what we

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have done over the last many years we've

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00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,837
been offering this. Um,
it's imperfect, but I think remarkably

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00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,597
good relative to what I feared it could

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00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,797
have been. I have two more questions.

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00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,957
One is that when we were here last, I

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asked you if there were any politicians

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00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,917
whose positions on AI you approved.

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00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,157
If the Democrats do take the House, will

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that help or hinder OpenAI's goals

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towards regulation?

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00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,797
>> The main thing I have learned about

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00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,917
Washington in the last few years that

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00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,997
I've, you know, kind of had a more

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00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,477
active role is that I cannot predict how

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00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,197
that place works at all. I remember when

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I first testified in front of the Senate

377
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,477
in like was that [clears throat] 23 23.

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00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,997
I was so convinced and the people seemed
so genuine. We're going to get this done

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00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,557
in 2 weeks. It's going to be
non-controversial. This is just like

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00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:31,277
basic common sense. It's going to be done.
We won't need to see you again.

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00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:32,637
I was like great. That's how it works.

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00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,597
This is these is, you know, and then
nothing has happened. And I was so

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00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,437
convinced then it was going to happen.

384
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,917
>> Sam, when the history of AI is written,

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00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,277
who do you want to be? What role do you

386
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:45,517
want to have played?

387
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,837
Let me put it this way.

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00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,637
Elon Musk is like the Mad King Nero

389
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,077
character. I think Jensen Hong will
be the guy who was selling picks and

390
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,477
shovels during the gold rush. If you had

391
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,077
to summarize who you would like to be

392
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,237
when the history of AI is written, Sam,

393
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,677
who do you specifically want to be?

394
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,277
>> First of all, I never think this way.

395
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:11,277
And I think it's probably like a super

396
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:15,197
toxic way to live your life. Um like I I

397
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,277
try to just stay really focused on my

398
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:24,317
work and you know there's
so much still to to do

399
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,037
and I don't want to get like too much
main character energy here. I think

400
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:29,917
that's super bad. um that's probably

401
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,957
healthy and yet I think that people

402
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:38,877
would benefit from understanding
your own personal

403
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:39,917
mission.

404
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,757
>> Yeah. I like

405
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,957
the thing that has driven me through all

406
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,077
of this even especially the hard days is

407
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,317
uh I have such a belief that

408
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,517
although there are challenges although
there's reason for unease although there

409
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,677
are things we have to get right as we
navigate this path that putting this

410
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,237
technology in the hands of everyone and

411
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,877
giving people a legitimate
new superpower relative to

412
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:09,917
I think what any of us could imagine

413
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,397
mentioned a few years ago will do

414
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,157
tremendously more good than bad. And

415
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,637
a big part of my own motivation to start

416
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,437
and keep working in OpenAI is that I
think there are many people many of the

417
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,597
traditional parts of the community in

418
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,597
the Bay Area that were thinking about AI

419
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,717
that really believed only a small

420
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:36,077
priesthood should get access
to AI and that maybe that that

421
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,557
group would like, you know, they'd be
benevolent dictators. they would decide

422
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,477
how the rest of us got to use it. I

423
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,717
think there are other people pursuing AI

424
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,917
that just want like more power for
themselves or their company. Like maybe

425
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,437
they're newer to this, but they're
just like this is, you know, this is how

426
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,677
we're going to win. And and and what I
would really like if the history books

427
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,797
ever write anything about me at all
be great if they don't is just like the

428
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,077
work that OpenAI did really made sure

429
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,757
that AI was like a fundamental

430
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,277
thing that every person got hugely
empowered with. It was not something

431
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:13,197
happened to them. It was something
that people were like given was like a new

432
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,517
fire or electricity or whatever. And it
led to this incredibly great new society

433
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,957
that people built for each other.
Not that like a small group of people

434
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,117
worshiping the machine god decided to

435
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,877
like bequeath on all of us. Prometheus

436
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,157
closer to that than other things you

437
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:35,080
could come up with for sure. Okay,
Sam, thank you very much. Thank you.