WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.629 Well this week's guest spent almost 20 years turning the Premier League into 00:00:03.712 --> 00:00:04.557 a global commercial 00:00:04.640 --> 00:00:08.983 powerhouse. We were lucky enough to get Richard Scudamore's thoughts on Manchester 00:00:09.066 --> 00:00:09.577 City but of 00:00:09.660 --> 00:00:15.370 course in true news tradition it was minutes before the Manchester City charges 00:00:15.453 --> 00:00:20.734 dropped. So we haven't got his thoughts on that but we do have his thoughts on fans, 00:00:20.817 --> 00:00:22.077 investment in the game 00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:26.617 and of course the independent regulator. Welcome to High Performance Business 00:00:26.701 --> 00:00:27.797 in proud partnership 00:00:27.880 --> 00:00:32.339 with IFS. Thank you so much. You and I have chatted quite a lot in the past, 00:00:32.422 --> 00:00:36.506 but never with a brew. We never had a chance to sit down and do this. 00:00:36.590 --> 00:00:38.620 I want to start with the obvious, 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:43.307 the Premier League. What do you think your legacy is from that job? 00:00:43.390 --> 00:00:44.957 It's lovely to see you, 00:00:45.040 --> 00:00:48.563 nice to talk to you, but the word legacy always like sends me off into a bit of 00:00:48.647 --> 00:00:52.137 a hair on the back of the neck. Don't really like it, you know, 00:00:52.220 --> 00:00:55.057 because legacy is a bit too much ego in that for 00:00:55.140 --> 00:01:00.762 me really just the whole concept but what you do when you're in any job and it was 00:01:00.846 --> 00:01:01.737 a job it was a 00:01:01.820 --> 00:01:05.490 job of work and people you know for whatever else it might be it was a job 00:01:05.573 --> 00:01:06.657 of work do you leave it 00:01:06.740 --> 00:01:10.085 in a better shape than you than when you arrived and that's all you can do right 00:01:10.169 --> 00:01:10.857 that's all you can 00:01:10.940 --> 00:01:15.744 do and it has gone on to greater things bigger better brighter greater things 00:01:15.828 --> 00:01:16.697 since I've left 00:01:16.780 --> 00:01:20.352 and that's really the thing you're proudest of in many in many ways people 00:01:20.436 --> 00:01:21.637 talk about numbers so much 00:01:21.720 --> 00:01:26.718 and I know when you came in and where you left for example broadcasting rights when 00:01:26.802 --> 00:01:27.637 you left it was 00:01:27.720 --> 00:01:31.802 worth over five billion that package isn't it people talk about numbers that they 00:01:31.886 --> 00:01:32.317 talk about 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:36.467 revenue yes of course they do that's the sort of the big headline isn't it you know 00:01:36.550 --> 00:01:37.117 the tv rights 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:42.679 were worth x and now they're worth y but nothing nothing happens without the sports 00:01:42.762 --> 00:01:43.617 does it and so 00:01:43.700 --> 00:01:48.613 the most I think the thing that still amazes me and I watch a lot of football 00:01:48.697 --> 00:01:49.717 still is how good 00:01:49.800 --> 00:01:54.684 it looks you know from and in 1992 something happened these 20 clubs got 00:01:54.767 --> 00:01:55.857 together with the 00:01:55.940 --> 00:02:01.630 benefit of some extra cash from sky they produced a quality of football that 00:02:01.713 --> 00:02:03.377 the likes of which we'd 00:02:03.460 --> 00:02:06.813 never seen before we'd seen football before it was nothing new the leagues 00:02:06.896 --> 00:02:07.417 really didn't 00:02:07.500 --> 00:02:10.647 reorganize there was you know same top division and there was three divisions 00:02:10.731 --> 00:02:11.277 below promotion 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:15.865 relegation 11 v 11 everything was much the same you know referees made bad decisions 00:02:15.948 --> 00:02:16.357 then they 00:02:16.440 --> 00:02:21.742 make bad decisions now. And so nothing's really changed other than it does look 00:02:21.826 --> 00:02:22.780 very exciting. 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:28.476 When you came in did you have an inkling or did you absolutely know financially we 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:33.147 would be where we are now No not at all What I knew was this I come from 00:02:33.231 --> 00:02:36.150 the newspaper business That was my background 00:02:36.730 --> 00:02:41.705 And I knew about content and I knew both journalistically good content people would 00:02:41.788 --> 00:02:43.190 be prepared to pay for. 00:02:43.690 --> 00:02:47.031 And I also knew that audiences were created in those newspapers 00:02:47.114 --> 00:02:50.727 and advertising, if you like, would be attached to those newspapers. 00:02:50.810 --> 00:02:53.767 And there was a commercial model that I understood how it worked. 00:02:53.850 --> 00:02:57.010 When I came into the Premier League, I was at the EFL before, 00:02:57.710 --> 00:03:01.390 and I remember my presentation I gave to the EFL board, 00:03:01.990 --> 00:03:04.340 you could, quite frankly, you could give today. 00:03:04.990 --> 00:03:08.667 It was literally, I can remember it to this day, 00:03:08.750 --> 00:03:12.910 and Trevor Birch, the EFL chief exec, and I've discussed it relatively recently. 00:03:13.330 --> 00:03:14.847 And so nothing much has changed. 00:03:14.930 --> 00:03:16.087 The Premier League is the Premier League. 00:03:16.170 --> 00:03:18.210 The EFL has its huge merits as well. 00:03:18.370 --> 00:03:21.427 Get over the divorce. They've gone off to do this. 00:03:21.510 --> 00:03:22.307 They haven't gone anywhere. 00:03:22.390 --> 00:03:26.671 they haven't gone anywhere physically yeah they may have gone somewhere commercially 00:03:26.754 --> 00:03:27.087 but they 00:03:27.170 --> 00:03:32.326 haven't gone anywhere physically and so i did i did think that proper content 00:03:32.409 --> 00:03:33.347 and the way sky 00:03:33.430 --> 00:03:37.455 were promoting it and presenting it and the way pvc were doing match of the day 00:03:37.538 --> 00:03:38.287 highlights which 00:03:38.370 --> 00:03:42.247 was the great promoter of the live rights on the sunday this there's a lovely little 00:03:42.330 --> 00:03:42.907 ecosystem here 00:03:42.990 --> 00:03:48.429 i just thought it could be very good you said at the time that your sort of job 00:03:48.512 --> 00:03:51.290 was keeping everyone equally dissatisfied. 00:03:52.070 --> 00:03:55.107 Do you think that's still true to this day? 00:03:55.190 --> 00:03:58.127 Do you think it's actually getting even harder to keep everyone happy? 00:03:58.210 --> 00:03:59.610 You don't keep anyone happy. 00:04:00.190 --> 00:04:04.470 This is football. Your listeners are not that daft, right? 00:04:04.610 --> 00:04:06.867 They're not happy. There's no fan that's happy. 00:04:06.950 --> 00:04:08.900 There's hardly any fans that are happy. 00:04:09.430 --> 00:04:12.370 There are fans that go through short period of happiness, 00:04:12.890 --> 00:04:14.847 and the deep joy of winning away from home 00:04:14.930 --> 00:04:18.767 on a Tuesday night in the northwest of England still never leaves you, right? 00:04:18.850 --> 00:04:20.810 But that's a temporary thing. 00:04:21.030 --> 00:04:24.790 What you can't do if you are running a league, you are there. 00:04:24.910 --> 00:04:28.630 You are basically the prime pillar of independence. 00:04:29.310 --> 00:04:34.442 And your job is to try and come up with initiatives and things that are broadly 00:04:34.525 --> 00:04:38.750 acceptable to everyone, probably precisely acceptable to no one. 00:04:38.990 --> 00:04:41.875 So if you handed the job over to an individual club, 00:04:41.958 --> 00:04:43.987 they would all have a different view. 00:04:44.070 --> 00:04:49.308 often depending on where they naturally or not naturally sit in the league table 00:04:49.392 --> 00:04:50.107 those facing 00:04:50.190 --> 00:04:53.699 relegation have a view those threatened with getting into those relegation places 00:04:53.782 --> 00:04:54.187 have a view 00:04:54.270 --> 00:04:58.838 those that are qualifying for europe on a regular basis have a view and those 00:04:58.921 --> 00:05:03.973 that are aspiring to qualify for Europe on a regular basis have a view So you do need 00:05:04.056 --> 00:05:06.027 somebody with a it not an entirely 00:05:06.110 --> 00:05:10.663 independent view in a sense, but it is, your job is to take all those views, 00:05:10.746 --> 00:05:12.210 put them into the mixer, 00:05:12.750 --> 00:05:17.563 put them into the blender really and come back with something that is palatable 00:05:17.646 --> 00:05:18.480 to everyone, 00:05:18.770 --> 00:05:22.244 but not precisely what any one of them would have done had they been left 00:05:22.328 --> 00:05:22.927 to themselves. 00:05:23.010 --> 00:05:29.144 So what then is your biggest takeaway from what you learn from dealing with club 00:05:29.228 --> 00:05:31.870 owners on a sort of regular basis? 00:05:32.190 --> 00:05:36.190 Hard work, communication, because you have to convince them you're neutral. 00:05:37.050 --> 00:05:40.755 You know, at my I remember at my leaving event, you know, 00:05:40.838 --> 00:05:44.543 one of the one of the bigger clubs saying that, you know, 00:05:44.626 --> 00:05:47.467 I was always a softie for the smaller clubs. 00:05:47.550 --> 00:05:50.895 And somebody from the smaller clubs stood up and said that they always knew I was 00:05:50.978 --> 00:05:52.207 in the pocket of the big clubs. 00:05:52.290 --> 00:05:54.467 So that actually was good, right? 00:05:54.550 --> 00:05:56.347 I'm happy with that. You're like the BBC. 00:05:56.430 --> 00:05:58.730 I'm happy with that. I'm just happy with that. 00:05:59.190 --> 00:06:02.767 And both things can be true at the same time, if you know what I mean, 00:06:02.850 --> 00:06:04.467 because you have to have a relationship with all of them. 00:06:04.550 --> 00:06:06.447 When you sort of look at the Premier League now, 00:06:06.530 --> 00:06:08.727 because you've been out of it now for some time, 00:06:08.810 --> 00:06:12.507 are you able to sort of stand back and go, I wouldn't have done it like that? 00:06:12.590 --> 00:06:15.027 I don't ever look at it as though I was in the job. 00:06:15.110 --> 00:06:18.547 I never have. Because that doesn't suit me and my mental health. 00:06:18.630 --> 00:06:21.187 It doesn't suit, I'm sure, my successors, right? 00:06:21.270 --> 00:06:24.050 But you just don't get into that. 00:06:24.550 --> 00:06:28.047 The last thing you want to be is old Uncle Fester in the corner going, 00:06:28.130 --> 00:06:30.180 I wouldn't have done it like that, right? 00:06:30.270 --> 00:06:32.120 Because everything's a new challenge. 00:06:32.210 --> 00:06:33.927 Well, yeah, I'll do that again later. 00:06:34.010 --> 00:06:37.270 But the reality is, you know, I was very lucky in two senses. 00:06:37.430 --> 00:06:38.927 I got out at a time that suited me. 00:06:39.010 --> 00:06:42.790 I was nearly 60. I'd done it for almost 20 years. 00:06:42.890 --> 00:06:45.250 And it's a good old ride like that. 00:06:45.630 --> 00:06:47.710 But I never saw anything coming. 00:06:47.810 --> 00:06:50.427 But the thing I never particularly saw, neither did anybody else, was COVID. 00:06:50.510 --> 00:06:54.980 The people who came after me faced much bigger challenges than I ever faced 00:06:55.063 --> 00:06:59.290 because I was able from the entire time I was there to start in August, 00:06:59.373 --> 00:07:00.830 end in May, 380 matches. 00:07:01.490 --> 00:07:04.062 You know, all the games played, all the games, you know, 00:07:04.146 --> 00:07:06.196 the league tables were the league tables. 00:07:06.290 --> 00:07:09.090 And it was just much easier. Let's speak about Man City. 00:07:09.390 --> 00:07:12.771 This is a huge, huge thing that the Premier League are having to grapple 00:07:12.855 --> 00:07:14.305 with one of its hugest teams. 00:07:17.690 --> 00:07:19.970 ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. 00:07:20.510 --> 00:07:21.860 Here's a show we recommend. 00:07:24.960 --> 00:07:29.026 We host the show Ease, where we sit down with thought leaders, experts, 00:07:29.109 --> 00:07:33.200 and creatives and ask them all the questions we've been curious about. 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:38.196 We talk about everything from people and culture to the science behind why we think 00:07:38.280 --> 00:07:39.560 and feel the way we do. 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:43.669 We don't take things too seriously and know it's okay to not know all 00:07:43.753 --> 00:07:44.586 the answers. 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:48.357 We hope you enjoy these conversations as much as we enjoy having them. 00:07:48.440 --> 00:07:51.618 You can listen anywhere you get your podcasts or watch our conversations 00:07:51.702 --> 00:07:52.117 on YouTube. 00:07:52.200 --> 00:07:56.200 Come learn with us and hopefully we can find some ease along the way. 00:07:56.500 --> 00:08:01.240 Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. 00:08:01.820 --> 00:08:03.040 Acast.com. 00:08:07.640 --> 00:08:10.140 This not falling on your doorstep. 00:08:10.280 --> 00:08:11.897 Well, it started when I was there. 00:08:11.980 --> 00:08:14.400 Of course it was going for that long. 00:08:14.580 --> 00:08:16.837 It started when I was there. Yeah, but I'm not. 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:19.437 Look, you have your own challenges to face, don't you? 00:08:19.520 --> 00:08:23.397 we had you know we had Ashley Cole being tapped up we had all sorts of things 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:24.477 there's always things 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:27.526 going on we had Tevez Mascherano we had all sorts of things going on I forgot 00:08:27.609 --> 00:08:28.397 about Tevez Mascherano 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:32.605 no you didn't no you didn't I'm glad I remembered you you know wherever you are 00:08:32.688 --> 00:08:33.617 you know but I also 00:08:33.700 --> 00:08:36.650 you know I had much more I had also existential things when I was there we had 00:08:36.733 --> 00:08:37.117 the European 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:40.799 Commission wanting to you know stop television rights being sold collectively 00:08:40.883 --> 00:08:41.517 fought that for 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:45.666 five years and so you know these jobs I know people think these must be the best 00:08:45.749 --> 00:08:46.237 jobs in the 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:48.886 world because you know you just meet footballers and you know you just go 00:08:48.969 --> 00:08:49.757 to matches and there are 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:54.722 just now right now you know the the whether it was me or now richard masters 00:08:54.805 --> 00:08:55.637 there's always 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:59.381 challenges and i'm i don't i don't sit thinking oh god i'm glad that wasn't me i 00:08:59.464 --> 00:09:00.177 you know you just 00:09:00.260 --> 00:09:04.575 because it's not it's not what you think can you believe it's been going this long 00:09:04.658 --> 00:09:04.897 though 00:09:04.980 --> 00:09:08.587 no i can't believe it neither can anybody but then neither can richard masters 00:09:08.670 --> 00:09:09.297 either you know 00:09:09.380 --> 00:09:13.874 so so he's as frustrated believe you me he is as frustrated as anybody and at some 00:09:13.958 --> 00:09:14.377 point and 00:09:14.460 --> 00:09:19.310 And that's why, in fairness to him, he does his faithful pre-season media a few 00:09:19.393 --> 00:09:22.677 weeks back. He says, I can't say anything because I don't know anything. 00:09:22.760 --> 00:09:24.740 And when I do, everybody will know. 00:09:24.880 --> 00:09:26.957 And that is genuinely how it is. 00:09:27.040 --> 00:09:28.017 He's as frustrated as anyone. 00:09:28.100 --> 00:09:32.020 We've just had another record-breaking summer transfer. 00:09:32.160 --> 00:09:34.517 Then we're looking at, what, three and a half billion. 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:38.600 Is there anything about the spending now that worries you? 00:09:39.160 --> 00:09:40.660 Do you think it's sustainable? 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:44.037 Clearly, it's a product of, yeah, like all things. 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:47.568 Like how much mortgage can somebody have is a product of how much they earn 00:09:47.651 --> 00:09:50.251 and what the interest rates are and everything else. 00:09:50.460 --> 00:09:54.929 And so the transfer fees are a product of what income they think is – 00:09:55.012 --> 00:09:59.927 what income they have, what they guarantee to have and what they think is – 00:10:00.010 --> 00:10:04.455 they might have in the future. And the great bit about the way the Premier League 00:10:04.538 --> 00:10:08.479 is set up, everything is pretty much rolling three years in advance. So, 00:10:08.563 --> 00:10:10.883 you know, they know what they're... I mean, 00:10:10.967 --> 00:10:15.467 it's very easy to predict revenues in the Premier League because of the way the TV 00:10:15.550 --> 00:10:18.877 deals are done. Very little default. There's been hardly any. 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:21.952 And then you know what your season ticket revenues are. 00:10:22.035 --> 00:10:25.976 It's a pretty easy model to write the revenue. It's a very... therefore, 00:10:26.060 --> 00:10:26.867 it's very easy... 00:10:26.950 --> 00:10:32.839 to work out what you can spend. And there are all sorts of people out there because 00:10:32.923 --> 00:10:37.157 of those two factors, particularly the certainty of revenue, 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:40.827 that are prepared to advance you or use that money. 00:10:40.910 --> 00:10:46.152 So I say worry is not the word, right? But of course, what you have to do, 00:10:46.235 --> 00:10:51.477 all sport has to keep to the fundamentals of being able to ultimately pay, 00:10:51.560 --> 00:10:55.950 you know, pay the obligations that you've put the club under. 00:10:56.950 --> 00:11:01.323 touchwood touchwood the primary clubs have been able to do that but even uefa 00:11:01.407 --> 00:11:06.012 recently have come out with a report that says you know they're they're concerned 00:11:06.095 --> 00:11:10.121 they're concerned that some clubs are reliant on how much they're going 00:11:10.204 --> 00:11:14.578 to eventually sell these players for in the future and that kind of brings us 00:11:14.661 --> 00:11:19.439 on to financial fair play as well because it's all been changed this year um firstly 00:11:19.523 --> 00:11:24.910 do you see why UEFA are worried? Can you understand why they're sort of noting 00:11:24.994 --> 00:11:30.350 a word of caution? This notion of financial fair play started in UEFA and... 00:11:30.580 --> 00:11:34.070 It's very hard to know what the true motivation was. Was it? 00:11:34.153 --> 00:11:38.560 I still don't know the answer to this question. Was it genuine motivation? 00:11:39.130 --> 00:11:44.368 a concern for the sustainability and the longevity of clubs? Or was it, 00:11:44.451 --> 00:11:49.914 and there's a lot of pressure on this, another European scheme egged on by 00:11:49.997 --> 00:11:53.136 the jealous to peg the Premier League back? 00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:59.282 Because that is still real today. And it was as real when financial fair play came 00:11:59.365 --> 00:12:00.198 in, 00:12:01.010 --> 00:12:05.050 it was fundamentally UEFA wanted nobody to be able to spend money 00:12:05.350 --> 00:12:09.034 more than their revenue. That was it. And around our table, 00:12:09.117 --> 00:12:13.631 the Manchester United and the Arsenal's were all for it because they had 00:12:13.714 --> 00:12:17.526 the biggest revenues. And so UEFA have always been out there. 00:12:17.609 --> 00:12:21.357 And I think they would dearly have loved from the beginning, 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:25.954 here's your income, here's what you can spend. No loss, no owner equity, 00:12:26.038 --> 00:12:27.570 no injection of capital. 00:12:35.350 --> 00:12:40.049 latterly you know sovereign wealth fund please dump all your cash into our club so 00:12:40.132 --> 00:12:44.248 that we can you know we can take on the rest it's always been the nature 00:12:44.332 --> 00:12:48.739 of european football so look uefa have a great role to play because of course 00:12:48.823 --> 00:12:53.405 they've got that fun there's fantastic competitions and so they're they're right 00:12:53.488 --> 00:12:58.187 to express their opinion but i don't see it quite in the same concerning uh way um 00:12:58.271 --> 00:13:02.470 not in the same way okay so obviously we've got these new financial fair 00:13:05.350 --> 00:13:09.070 go over them again because they're, you know, complicated. Um, 00:13:09.190 --> 00:13:16.070 I think broadly they were brought in in an attempt to level the playing field. 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:19.613 We can argue that on another day. I think we might. Yeah, 00:13:19.696 --> 00:13:22.000 a lot of critics think it has changed. 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:25.103 sort of shorn up the position of the bigger clubs? 00:13:25.187 --> 00:13:29.480 Where do you stand on it? Well, the one thing that's hard to defend... 00:13:30.040 --> 00:13:34.180 and therefore I think needs looking at, is... 00:13:34.570 --> 00:13:37.570 The absolute unfettered, uncapped 00:13:38.920 --> 00:13:42.760 amount of money spent on player wages and costs. 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:46.240 And therefore, if you like, Fair Play, which was UEFA's, 00:13:46.323 --> 00:13:49.979 not the Premier League's, the Premier League has obviously PSR, 00:13:50.062 --> 00:13:54.964 which was a different calculation, because we insisted on there being some allowance 00:13:55.047 --> 00:13:58.584 quite a lot, really, when I was there. And it's the same now. 00:13:58.668 --> 00:14:02.798 There was an allowance for clubs to be able to spend and inject capital 00:14:02.881 --> 00:14:07.012 and inject equity to get them closer to those that had higher revenues. 00:14:07.095 --> 00:14:11.047 Otherwise, you just lock the table in, wouldn't you, from one to 20, 00:14:11.130 --> 00:14:12.080 you may as well. 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:14.000 I think... 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:19.455 So I don't have a problem with the idea that is there a way of at least putting 00:14:19.538 --> 00:14:24.145 some dampener on that wage bill that the clubs run. And that's a very – 00:14:24.228 --> 00:14:29.364 that's a different part of the economics than transfer fees and everything else 00:14:29.447 --> 00:14:33.129 because that money goes circulating round as you've seen. 00:14:33.212 --> 00:14:38.479 So the relationship between costs of a playing squad in terms of its salary costs 00:14:38.563 --> 00:14:42.460 and its own costs and its agents' fees and everything else, 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.529 I don't think there's any real problem with putting some limit. 00:14:47.612 --> 00:14:51.448 It's not a hard cap as such because it's related as a percentage of income. 00:14:51.531 --> 00:14:53.747 I don't think there's any problem with that. 00:14:53.830 --> 00:14:57.770 But people add it all up and make it one and the same problem. Transfer fees, 00:14:57.854 --> 00:15:01.846 to me, is very different because those transfer fees are going somewhere else. 00:15:01.929 --> 00:15:05.974 When you pay those transfer fees, I mean, there was more. The interesting stat, 00:15:06.057 --> 00:15:10.259 I haven't got the precise number, but it was the highest ever recirculation within 00:15:10.342 --> 00:15:12.380 the Premier League this summer as well, 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:18.501 within the league, which is again, and down into the championship and down into 00:15:18.585 --> 00:15:21.467 the EFL. So I think it's a different thing. I'm not... 00:15:21.550 --> 00:15:24.873 I look from a distance. I'm not intimately involved. 00:15:24.956 --> 00:15:30.310 I don't look at every club's details. But I think some sort of cap to stop the wage 00:15:30.393 --> 00:15:34.698 bill going right through the roof uncapped, I think is a good idea. 00:15:34.782 --> 00:15:39.545 And the squad cost ratios get you there. That's really interesting because 00:15:39.629 --> 00:15:43.690 obviously they have a wage cap in leagues such as MLS. Mm-hmm. 00:15:43.990 --> 00:15:47.443 But would that not be an immediate sort of restriction of trade? 00:15:47.526 --> 00:15:51.863 The Premier League's become huge. How do you then attract the big players if you 00:15:51.947 --> 00:15:55.234 are saying to them, actually, you can't earn Harling's level? 00:15:55.317 --> 00:15:58.494 Sound like a union leader. In another life, maybe, Richard. 00:15:58.577 --> 00:16:02.196 Can you imagine Natalie Perks, union leader? She could do it. Yeah, 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:05.125 I know you could. Oh, no doubt you could do it. Look, 00:16:05.208 --> 00:16:08.550 is it a restraint of trade? We're talking about the aggregate. 00:16:08.634 --> 00:16:12.170 We're not talking about, it's not an individual wage cap, is it? 00:16:13.990 --> 00:16:18.647 300, 400 million. Are you really saying that that stops a club from signing any 00:16:18.730 --> 00:16:23.147 player, really? I mean, it's really the way you divide your deck, isn't it? 00:16:23.230 --> 00:16:27.010 Yeah. Maybe I'm sort of thinking more. If you are, let's say... 00:16:27.250 --> 00:16:31.554 Manchester City and you want to attract the absolute best players which of course 00:16:31.638 --> 00:16:35.780 they do if you've only and I'm using uh rabbit you know rabbit ears here um if 00:16:35.863 --> 00:16:40.276 you've only got 400 million you've got to then go right we want Haaland we want xyz 00:16:40.359 --> 00:16:44.393 and how much we're going to pay them it's that's a jigsaw that's a of course 00:16:44.476 --> 00:16:48.672 but then they've got too many players anyway haven't they all I'm saying is all 00:16:48.756 --> 00:16:50.110 I'm saying is there is no 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:54.175 There is no real reason why if you really wanted a particular player, 00:16:54.259 --> 00:16:57.822 you couldn't find room for them in your squad. And it's still, 00:16:57.905 --> 00:17:02.528 I go back to something I said earlier, there's still only 11 on the field at any 00:17:02.611 --> 00:17:07.116 one time. So if what you're saying is, can they just hoard and have, you know, 00:17:07.199 --> 00:17:09.107 25 of the world's top 30 players? 00:17:09.190 --> 00:17:12.265 No, they can't. But then is that wrong, really? You know, 00:17:12.348 --> 00:17:15.091 I don't see where there's... It's absolutely wrong. 00:17:15.174 --> 00:17:19.635 There is nothing under the current rules that stops a club that's got a good plan, 00:17:19.718 --> 00:17:23.735 a good recruitment plan. And remember, people talk about player, you know, 00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:27.614 player recruitment. It's not recruitment anymore. It's player trading. 00:17:27.698 --> 00:17:31.881 You know, you are... There's a dynamism to your squad these days that is, OK, 00:17:31.964 --> 00:17:36.092 you know, this is our squad. This is what we've got. This is what we'd like. 00:17:36.176 --> 00:17:40.673 Who are we exiting now? to up the quality of our squad. And so that's how it works. 00:17:40.756 --> 00:17:42.908 And so I don't see it's really a restraint. 00:17:42.991 --> 00:17:46.702 I never thought I would sit here and hear you effectively argue, sort of, 00:17:46.785 --> 00:17:50.392 it sounds like what you're doing, for a wage cap in the Premier League. 00:17:50.475 --> 00:17:54.082 If it gets to a level where it is completely ludicrous, like, you know, 00:17:54.165 --> 00:17:58.135 the strength of the Premier League and the way it divides its central revenue, 00:17:58.219 --> 00:18:00.994 where the, you know, I don't know what the numbers are, 00:18:01.077 --> 00:18:05.203 but the top clubs probably now from the central distribution are probably getting 00:18:05.287 --> 00:18:06.690 somewhere near 200 million. 00:18:07.690 --> 00:18:11.999 smallest club. People talk about this, they get 100 million when they go down. 00:18:12.083 --> 00:18:16.223 No, they don't. No, they do. They get 100, 110 million for being in, right? 00:18:16.306 --> 00:18:18.390 They will get about 110, 120 million. 00:18:18.610 --> 00:18:24.547 And that... The point of that, that ratio, that 1.82 to 1, whatever the ratio is, 00:18:24.631 --> 00:18:25.697 top to bottom... 00:18:25.780 --> 00:18:29.826 Guess what it does? It allows the bottom teams to put a squad out that gives them 00:18:29.909 --> 00:18:31.540 a chance of taking points off... 00:18:31.630 --> 00:18:35.710 the top teams and that's what everybody wants the biggest jaw i've had 00:18:36.010 --> 00:18:39.269 since I left, is looking at the league table with all the bees up there. 00:18:39.353 --> 00:18:42.473 You know, the Bournemouth, the Brighton's, the Brentford's, you know, 00:18:42.556 --> 00:18:44.608 because when you look at the league table now, 00:18:44.692 --> 00:18:47.537 when you look at the league table last year, the way it ended. 00:18:47.620 --> 00:18:51.647 There's names up there. You think, how can they be there? And are you... 00:18:51.730 --> 00:18:55.142 also saying this with another B cap on, because of course, 00:18:55.226 --> 00:18:58.879 with Bristol City, you're on the board of directors, you know, 00:18:58.962 --> 00:19:02.676 you want to eventually become a Premier League side, I presume, 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:06.617 and coming up into a world where they're Maybe aren't. 00:19:06.700 --> 00:19:10.006 you know, unfettered wages, which are just going out of control, 00:19:10.089 --> 00:19:13.819 maybe a world where they are a bit more control. That would benefit you, 00:19:13.903 --> 00:19:17.844 wouldn't it? I don't know. I don't sit around that table necessarily looking 00:19:17.928 --> 00:19:21.552 at things through, you know, through through the through the same lens 00:19:21.635 --> 00:19:25.660 as everybody, even in the championship. You know, I'm talking about I think. 00:19:25.810 --> 00:19:29.087 I don't want to make a bigger issue than there must be a number, 00:19:29.170 --> 00:19:33.182 a very big number, beyond which you don't need for a wage bill to put together 00:19:33.265 --> 00:19:37.014 a fantastic Premier League team. And of course, the other aspect of this, 00:19:37.097 --> 00:19:41.319 we mustn't forget, it's not just putting together a brilliant Premier League team. 00:19:41.402 --> 00:19:45.204 It's putting together a Premier League team that then goes on and competes 00:19:45.288 --> 00:19:49.247 and does well in Europe. And that's the difference between the Premier League 00:19:49.330 --> 00:19:51.819 and many other sports, between many other things, 00:19:51.902 --> 00:19:55.210 because the Premier League isn't necessarily the end to itself. 00:19:55.810 --> 00:19:59.937 You're building a system that allows the biggest club. 00:20:00.020 --> 00:20:04.121 to go on and succeed in Europe. And that's part of the model, always has been. 00:20:04.204 --> 00:20:06.374 So you've got nearly three I's, don't you? 00:20:06.457 --> 00:20:09.002 You've got one eye on what's good for the league. 00:20:09.086 --> 00:20:12.221 You've got one eye on what's good for the whole of football, 00:20:12.304 --> 00:20:16.405 because it's still part of an ecosystem. And you've got one eye on what's good 00:20:16.488 --> 00:20:20.536 for the clubs that then go on into Europe. And you have to, that's the trick. 00:20:20.619 --> 00:20:21.957 Let's talk a bit about... 00:20:22.040 --> 00:20:26.234 Who regulates football? Because you were always very clear. 00:20:26.317 --> 00:20:30.584 You believed self-regulation is the best form of regulation. 00:20:30.668 --> 00:20:34.220 Do you still believe that now? Self-regulation... 00:20:34.340 --> 00:20:38.840 The way you said it even sounds like it's some sort of way you just do it yourself. 00:20:38.923 --> 00:20:41.960 But let's go first of all, number one, law of the land. 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:45.413 So everybody has to abide by the laws of the land. 00:20:45.497 --> 00:20:48.568 And there's lots of things around finance, around money, 00:20:48.651 --> 00:20:52.820 around accounts and accounting. You know, the law of the land comes first. 00:20:52.910 --> 00:20:55.719 And then up until most of the time I was there, 00:20:55.802 --> 00:21:00.150 the law of Europe and the ECJ and everything else came first and second. 00:21:00.233 --> 00:21:03.042 Right. So and so that's not quite the same now. 00:21:03.125 --> 00:21:07.781 And then you have the FIFA statutes and what they they decreed had to happen. 00:21:07.864 --> 00:21:12.581 Then you have the FA statutes. And so the league themselves really was a trade 00:21:12.664 --> 00:21:17.565 association rule book between how the 20 were going to behave towards each other. 00:21:17.648 --> 00:21:18.447 And therefore, 00:21:18.530 --> 00:21:22.375 I always believe, and I believe to this day, there is enough regulation. 00:21:22.458 --> 00:21:26.521 We know where you stand on an independent football regulator. They are here. 00:21:26.604 --> 00:21:30.122 We're going to hear of their state of the game report fairly soon. 00:21:30.205 --> 00:21:34.595 I guess for a lot of people, it was the fans' point of view and how fans felt like 00:21:34.679 --> 00:21:37.650 they were being maybe priced out of their football club. 00:21:37.734 --> 00:21:41.251 Or it was sort of getting out of control. We saw teams going bust, 00:21:41.334 --> 00:21:45.016 all these kind of things, which is why it was essentially brought in. 00:21:45.099 --> 00:21:46.190 Do you think it's... 00:21:46.940 --> 00:21:49.760 more something that should regulate 00:21:49.970 --> 00:21:54.863 championship and below and therefore not the premier league do you think they they 00:21:54.946 --> 00:21:59.840 more or less no i wouldn't no no no but even in your question you know clubs going 00:21:59.923 --> 00:22:04.513 we've seen clubs going bust you know they don't very few do and very few have 00:22:04.596 --> 00:22:09.489 finances are a problem though in football the truth is clubs do not go bust what's 00:22:09.572 --> 00:22:14.405 the definition of professional football you either you pay to play and people pay 00:22:14.488 --> 00:22:18.190 to watch there's no other definition really and so since 1888 00:22:19.970 --> 00:22:24.760 play by local business owners or factories or whatever and people have come in 00:22:24.844 --> 00:22:29.697 and paid a little bit of money to watch and so what's happened it's amazing how 00:22:29.780 --> 00:22:34.820 many people have been found to keep those clubs alive right and on occasion though 00:22:34.904 --> 00:22:39.444 they get to a point where through mismanagement bad management or bad luck 00:22:39.527 --> 00:22:44.318 you know a ball can hit a post and you know in this game and come back out and 00:22:44.401 --> 00:22:49.150 a ball hits a post goes in your life is different right life is different so 00:22:49.970 --> 00:22:52.518 So, management and mismanagement to luck and bad luck, 00:22:52.601 --> 00:22:56.075 because it's a massive part of football, because it's a low-scoring game. 00:22:56.159 --> 00:22:59.145 0-0 is very similar to 0-1. It's very similar to 1-0, isn't it? 00:22:59.229 --> 00:23:02.849 And what a difference your life makes. You're either in the Champions League 00:23:02.932 --> 00:23:06.016 or not. You're either relegated, promoted, Premier League or not. 00:23:06.100 --> 00:23:08.209 You're either in business or not in business. 00:23:08.293 --> 00:23:11.817 That's kind of why we love it as well. Exactly. And so that gets to my... 00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:12.733 By point. 00:23:15.350 --> 00:23:20.350 Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show we recommend. 00:23:20.570 --> 00:23:24.508 Hey guys, it's Nylea Devorah and Justice Price. We host the show Ease, 00:23:24.591 --> 00:23:27.265 where we sit down with thought leaders, experts, 00:23:27.349 --> 00:23:31.370 and creatives and ask them all the questions we've been curious about. 00:23:31.580 --> 00:23:36.424 We talk about everything from people and culture to the science behind why we think 00:23:36.507 --> 00:23:40.995 and feel the way we do. We don't take things too seriously and know it's okay 00:23:41.078 --> 00:23:42.740 to not know all the answers. 00:23:42.950 --> 00:23:46.222 We hope you enjoy these conversations as much as we enjoy having them. 00:23:46.305 --> 00:23:49.672 You can listen anywhere you get your podcasts or watch our conversations 00:23:49.756 --> 00:23:53.123 on YouTube. Come learn with us and hopefully we can find some ease along 00:23:53.207 --> 00:23:53.997 the way. 00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:59.220 Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. 00:24:01.850 --> 00:24:03.850 . 00:24:03.950 --> 00:24:05.037 Thank you. 00:24:05.120 --> 00:24:09.610 Ever since time began, it's been a speculative business and people take 00:24:09.693 --> 00:24:13.733 risks. And I do understand, listen, I'm sitting here complacent, 00:24:13.816 --> 00:24:18.435 because the only club that really, really matters to me has been owned by 00:24:18.518 --> 00:24:21.913 a billionaire for the last 26 years. It's quite handy. 00:24:21.997 --> 00:24:27.002 Who has put a shed load of money in and kept us in business for those 26 years. 00:24:27.086 --> 00:24:32.413 And there's not a single Bristol City fan who wakes up in the morning worrying about 00:24:32.496 --> 00:24:34.300 the existence of their club. 00:24:34.760 --> 00:24:38.054 You know, they worry about other things and they're never satisfied. 00:24:38.137 --> 00:24:41.182 They'd like to see us in the Premier League and all that stuff. 00:24:41.266 --> 00:24:43.963 I get all that, but there's really no fundamental worry. 00:24:44.047 --> 00:24:47.191 That is the game, though. The game is you find the money you can, 00:24:47.275 --> 00:24:50.320 you put those resources against it, and some people take risks, 00:24:50.403 --> 00:24:53.598 just like Peter Risdale back in the 2000s with Leeds, took a risk, 00:24:53.681 --> 00:24:55.331 got them to the Champions League. 00:24:55.880 --> 00:25:00.499 you know, stick or twist, if you'd have asked the 36,500 Leeds fans at Ellen Road 00:25:00.582 --> 00:25:04.794 that night to stick or twist, you know the answer to that question. Twist, 00:25:04.878 --> 00:25:08.045 back at the farm, come on, you know, and it jeopardises, 00:25:08.128 --> 00:25:10.160 ultimately it jeopardises the club. 00:25:11.900 --> 00:25:16.161 What is the job of the regulator beyond that? If the idea that the leagues, 00:25:16.245 --> 00:25:20.448 both the Premier League when I was there, the Premier League now, the EFL, 00:25:20.532 --> 00:25:22.997 under the guidance of Trevor and Rick Parry, 00:25:23.081 --> 00:25:27.458 they are every day concerned in the sustainability and the viability of those 00:25:27.541 --> 00:25:32.060 clubs. It's the most important thing. It's a bit like when you get on a plane. 00:25:32.420 --> 00:25:35.922 I know we all sort of dismiss it. When the pilot says, you know, 00:25:36.006 --> 00:25:39.956 your safety is our number one priority, everybody goes, oh, yeah, right, 00:25:40.040 --> 00:25:44.382 come on, get on, get on with the food or get on with them, get the Wi-Fi going. 00:25:44.466 --> 00:25:46.848 But you just wash it over you. But actually, 00:25:46.931 --> 00:25:49.340 when you actually logically think about it. 00:25:49.610 --> 00:25:53.005 That is their number one priority. And when you run a league, 00:25:53.088 --> 00:25:57.225 your number one priority is the sustainability and the continued existence 00:25:57.308 --> 00:26:01.273 of football clubs. So nobody's going to do anything to jeopardise them. 00:26:01.356 --> 00:26:06.006 I guess that a lot of people as fans will feel like the independent regulator's job 00:26:06.089 --> 00:26:09.256 is to protect them. And we've seen a lot of fans protest, 00:26:09.339 --> 00:26:12.107 certainly about ticket prices. You said, you know, 00:26:12.190 --> 00:26:16.410 a fan comes along and pays a little bit to watch a football match. I don't 00:26:16.580 --> 00:26:19.857 think they're paying a little bit to watch football now. 00:26:19.940 --> 00:26:24.417 And maybe that's a role that, you know, does a football club have to do more 00:26:24.500 --> 00:26:29.157 for its fans? What bit? There's not an intimate understanding of what currently 00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:32.960 exists within the rules, right? So what is it about their club 00:26:33.590 --> 00:26:37.830 that they really, really want protecting because ground location is protected 00:26:37.913 --> 00:26:41.086 by rule. You know, club assets, club badges and, you know, 00:26:41.169 --> 00:26:44.454 is protected by rule. What the regulator is not going to do, 00:26:44.538 --> 00:26:48.946 it's not like Ofcom or Ofgen or Ofort. They're not going to come in and regulate 00:26:49.029 --> 00:26:52.876 the prices of what it costs to go to a Premier League football game or 00:26:52.959 --> 00:26:57.142 a championship game. It's just not within the remit. It's just so, you know, 00:26:57.226 --> 00:26:58.910 the things that really matter. 00:26:59.450 --> 00:27:02.054 to fans, right, are pretty heavily regulated. 00:27:02.137 --> 00:27:05.278 The things that irritate fans, and I get it, you know, 00:27:05.361 --> 00:27:08.502 displacement of football matches, why can't, you know, 00:27:08.585 --> 00:27:12.980 the timing of kickoffs and the notice of kickoff times and all those things 00:27:13.064 --> 00:27:17.638 and ticket pricing per se, you know, I'm afraid the regulator is not going to, 00:27:17.721 --> 00:27:21.698 you know, I don't want to set expectations too high for David Cogan, 00:27:21.781 --> 00:27:25.101 who I know well, but, you know, you've got to be careful. 00:27:25.185 --> 00:27:28.170 This isn't going to be the panacea for everything. 00:27:29.450 --> 00:27:33.344 in dreamland from a football environment, it's not going to be. 00:27:33.427 --> 00:27:38.583 The main objective of the regulator is to ensure sustainability of a football club. 00:27:38.666 --> 00:27:41.570 Let me put you a different scenario. Let's say 00:27:42.170 --> 00:27:44.570 the regulator came along and said... 00:27:44.810 --> 00:27:45.477 Thank you. 00:27:45.560 --> 00:27:50.380 Right, all 92 of you that currently exist, we're going to guarantee sustainability. 00:27:52.520 --> 00:27:57.100 But... Not a single one of you is allowed to invest a penny to improve your team. 00:28:04.580 --> 00:28:08.649 And I can put my fan hat on here. They take sustainability as a given. 00:28:08.732 --> 00:28:13.216 My club will always exist. What I really want my club to do is to improve its 00:28:13.299 --> 00:28:17.368 position, wherever you are in the league. And so that's why it's hard, 00:28:17.452 --> 00:28:20.037 because fandom have an unrealistic... I mean, 00:28:20.121 --> 00:28:24.190 they don't really want sustainability. We could put rules in tomorrow. 00:28:24.273 --> 00:28:28.935 The leagues could have put rules in 10, 20 years ago to say there is no way that 00:28:29.018 --> 00:28:32.909 this club can ever, you know, ever be put at risk. But in so doing, 00:28:32.992 --> 00:28:34.060 you'd have to say, 00:28:34.580 --> 00:28:38.323 take no speculation, you can make no investment because what the fans really 00:28:38.406 --> 00:28:39.087 want is the 00:28:39.170 --> 00:28:43.338 really want is their club to be a little bit higher up the league than they were. 00:28:43.422 --> 00:28:47.380 Or in Europe next season. And whilst that exists, whilst that tension exists, 00:28:47.463 --> 00:28:51.610 that's ultimately the tension. And there is a tension, isn't there? Yeah, yeah. 00:28:52.760 --> 00:28:57.780 uh An owner comes in, say you're a private equity firm and you're buying up a Premier 00:28:57.863 --> 00:29:02.489 League club. Commercialisation of football means that you can see there's an amount 00:29:02.573 --> 00:29:07.142 of money that you could start to make more than what the club currently is making. 00:29:07.225 --> 00:29:10.320 And I guess that's where the tension comes in with fans. 00:29:10.403 --> 00:29:13.070 English football generally, every single fan... 00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:15.220 is attending a subsidized event. 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:20.986 subsidised by an owner often, right? I mean, that's the truth of it. 00:29:21.069 --> 00:29:23.060 If that sounds a bit harsh... 00:29:23.180 --> 00:29:28.577 All of us that go to Bristol City every week are having a subsidised event. 00:29:28.661 --> 00:29:34.424 It's a nicer stadium and it's a bigger wage bill and it's a bigger squad than we 00:29:34.507 --> 00:29:40.197 are prepared to pay from our pockets. So we've established you're not a big fan 00:29:40.280 --> 00:29:45.458 of an independent regulator. Is that fair? No, in fairness, in fairness, 00:29:45.542 --> 00:29:49.780 if it focuses minds and gets people thinking about things. 00:29:53.180 --> 00:29:56.880 I've read the brief I read everything I just still don't know quite what it's 00:29:56.963 --> 00:29:59.917 there to do because people or even now are obsessing about it 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:05.101 backstop powers to try and arrange some foursome settlement between the two 00:30:05.184 --> 00:30:09.110 leagues. But English football needs to do that for itself. 00:30:09.194 --> 00:30:14.571 There was that huge moment in 2021 where the six big teams wanted to break away 00:30:14.654 --> 00:30:18.940 and join the European Super League. Take us back to that time. 00:30:19.350 --> 00:30:22.784 I was on record for the weeks and months before when it was brewing of telling 00:30:22.868 --> 00:30:25.490 people, whoever rang me and said, what do you think? I said, 00:30:25.573 --> 00:30:29.143 it's never going to happen. Can't happen. And they go, well, why can't it happen? 00:30:29.226 --> 00:30:32.390 I said, well, first of all, I mean, these clubs would have to leave the, 00:30:32.473 --> 00:30:34.960 the English clubs would have to leave the Premier League. 00:30:35.044 --> 00:30:37.982 Then they'd have to leave the Champions League. And then, you know, 00:30:38.065 --> 00:30:41.184 they wouldn't be, then there'd be sanctions, you know, across the game. 00:30:41.267 --> 00:30:44.566 The rule book, there's nothing within the rules that allows them to go. So, 00:30:44.649 --> 00:30:47.599 and that's, I said, on a sort of a legal basis, in my view. 00:30:49.350 --> 00:30:53.594 find out i said that'll stop it in its tracks and they'll be well yeah but it's 00:30:53.678 --> 00:30:57.758 already somebody was saying you know people were saying to me oh yes but you 00:30:57.841 --> 00:31:02.414 know jp morgan have already done this this and this i said jp morgan can do what they 00:31:02.497 --> 00:31:06.742 want i'm telling you they haven't met they haven't met a fan base you know head 00:31:06.825 --> 00:31:11.069 on this this plan hasn't even met its first level of resistance yet i said so i 00:31:11.153 --> 00:31:15.590 don't think and so you you couch this as you know under self-regulation the super 00:31:19.350 --> 00:31:20.670 You know, despite... 00:31:20.760 --> 00:31:24.225 I spoke to all the clubs and I told them, it can't happen. Don't do it. 00:31:24.309 --> 00:31:27.124 It can't happen. Bad for your reputation. It can't happen. 00:31:27.208 --> 00:31:30.073 But they persisted because they didn't want to be left out. 00:31:30.157 --> 00:31:33.072 They thought if everybody else in Europe was going to do it, 00:31:33.156 --> 00:31:35.722 they needed to be part of it. It's not a real reason, 00:31:35.805 --> 00:31:38.721 but it's kind of a reason. But it was never going to happen. 00:31:38.804 --> 00:31:42.219 Was that the best sort of example of fan power, where fans really did? 00:31:42.303 --> 00:31:46.168 Because within 48 hours, that was dead in the water once the fans got involved. 00:31:46.251 --> 00:31:49.617 It was dead because the Premier League, the institutions, government, 00:31:49.700 --> 00:31:53.437 Boris Johnson, It was just like it was never going to happen. 00:31:53.520 --> 00:31:58.177 It was just never going to happen. It couldn't happen because it was a complete 00:31:58.260 --> 00:32:02.698 rip-up of what... really, domestic league football is all about. 00:32:02.781 --> 00:32:06.999 You can talk about football all day, every day. The unit, 00:32:07.082 --> 00:32:11.610 the real unit of football is a club, and the real cake is... 00:32:12.120 --> 00:32:17.394 is domestic league football and everything else is icing and cherries whether that's 00:32:17.477 --> 00:32:22.049 you know european competition or the cherry of the maybe the you know the 00:32:22.133 --> 00:32:27.279 the fa cup or the cherry of the club world championship who knows but but the cake 00:32:27.362 --> 00:32:32.190 has always been domestic football and that's never going to be ripped up when 00:32:32.273 --> 00:32:37.100 you were there you had a strong opinion about janny and fantino i did yeah uh 00:32:37.184 --> 00:32:40.500 the club world cup was a particular tension point um 00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:45.148 What did you make of what happened after the World Cup with his plan to try 00:32:45.231 --> 00:32:47.760 and sell it off? What did you think of that? 00:32:48.360 --> 00:32:53.079 I was first very offended by the red card rescinding for... Flo Balogun, yeah. 00:32:53.162 --> 00:32:57.573 The idea that, you know, Donald Trump, if he did or he didn't, who knows, 00:32:57.657 --> 00:33:01.760 and Infantino suddenly think it's a good idea to rescind a red card. 00:33:01.843 --> 00:33:05.577 It's just that, to me, was more shocking than what came after. 00:33:05.660 --> 00:33:08.655 Because what came after is just another, you know, 00:33:08.739 --> 00:33:11.611 it's another idea that gets run up the flagpole. 00:33:11.694 --> 00:33:14.196 It's probably got no chance of succeeding. 00:33:14.280 --> 00:33:18.220 But I thought the red card goes right to the heart of the sport. 00:33:18.360 --> 00:33:22.529 Well, the sport. What is the sport? The sport is, you play by the sport, 00:33:22.612 --> 00:33:27.135 those are the rules of the game. The FA and UEFA have been pretty clear on how 00:33:27.219 --> 00:33:30.974 they feel about Infantino. Do you think football deserves better? 00:33:31.057 --> 00:33:34.104 Do you think it needs a different person at the helm? 00:33:34.187 --> 00:33:38.711 So I never in my 20 years walked around thinking or walked into a club where I 00:33:38.794 --> 00:33:43.494 thought they're being nice to me because they think I'm going to leave some money 00:33:43.578 --> 00:33:45.877 behind because I had no influence on it. 00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:49.884 the only influence i had was outside was putting the money into the top of 00:33:49.967 --> 00:33:54.379 the hopper and then of course i had some influence in them the way we set the rules 00:33:54.462 --> 00:33:58.874 as to how it was divided but it was it was not a specific club it was just you know 00:33:58.957 --> 00:34:02.719 the whole the whole the whole way the rules set it compare and contrast 00:34:02.802 --> 00:34:07.243 that with fifa Just the idea that somebody can go on a campaign trail and say, 00:34:07.327 --> 00:34:10.394 if you vote for me, I'll give you all three million. 00:34:10.477 --> 00:34:15.180 That's how he got the job in 2016. Or the way he gets red carpeted when he goes 00:34:15.263 --> 00:34:19.299 places because, hey, you know, be nice if you could leave. You know, 00:34:19.382 --> 00:34:23.843 as the private jet leaves, it'd be nice if you could drop a bag of a couple 00:34:23.926 --> 00:34:28.629 of minutes out the back door. The way FIFA don't have any real precision around 00:34:28.712 --> 00:34:30.590 the way the money's handed out. 00:34:33.510 --> 00:34:38.038 spend in the presidency and i think it makes for that's the bit that i would 00:34:38.121 --> 00:34:42.709 change the most is an agreed all the national associations however many there 00:34:42.793 --> 00:34:47.381 are now 213 of them sitting around in it you know having a proper go rules as 00:34:47.464 --> 00:34:51.992 to how the money gets divided then of course when you've got rules about how 00:34:52.075 --> 00:34:56.664 the money's divided there's less of an issue about you know you're then freer 00:34:56.747 --> 00:35:01.578 to go and you know commercialize and do things at the top because at least people 00:35:01.661 --> 00:35:02.495 can see where 00:35:03.510 --> 00:35:06.607 it's going. When you were at the Premier League, you... 00:35:06.690 --> 00:35:10.933 were quite vocal about wanting that 39th it was called the 39th game abroad 00:35:11.016 --> 00:35:15.663 and it's worked really well in places like nfl often come over and have games here 00:35:15.746 --> 00:35:20.077 where do you stand on it now do you still feel it's something they should do 00:35:20.160 --> 00:35:24.584 It was an idea, you've got to remember when it was, it was 2007-2008, 00:35:24.667 --> 00:35:29.417 and there was some doubt as to whether media rights would continue to grow 00:35:29.501 --> 00:35:33.075 and whether international rights would continue to grow, 00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:37.387 absent of actually going and visiting, right? As it turns out now, 00:35:37.470 --> 00:35:40.522 there was no need to go play those games abroad. 00:35:40.605 --> 00:35:45.160 The revenues now internationally for the Premier League are larger than 00:35:45.243 --> 00:35:46.680 the domestic revenues, 00:35:50.160 --> 00:35:54.290 but that's partly to do with the commitment of broadcasters and 00:35:54.373 --> 00:35:58.905 the commitment to broadcasters not just the volume but the quality of 00:35:58.988 --> 00:36:04.322 the broadcast and the advent of 4k high definition television and so you know you 00:36:04.405 --> 00:36:09.873 can now quite easily sit at home on a very nice large screen 4k tv and get a pretty 00:36:09.956 --> 00:36:14.889 decent experience in the way the broadcasters but you know the way nbc have 00:36:14.972 --> 00:36:15.806 gone 00:36:20.160 --> 00:36:24.738 australia you go to asia you go to all these places hong kong singapore it looks 00:36:24.821 --> 00:36:29.341 fantastic and therefore the premier league has continued over the last 20 years 00:36:29.424 --> 00:36:34.293 to look fantastic on television and that's a combination of better quality production 00:36:34.377 --> 00:36:39.129 better quality of tv sets um and just so so the need to feel like you know in order 00:36:39.213 --> 00:36:43.091 to you know continue to grow internationally was i'm not so sure you 00:36:43.175 --> 00:36:48.590 need to go and play the games there anymore Another thing about fans is 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:52.783 their thoughts on VAR. Now, you are obviously a fan of a club that doesn't 00:36:52.866 --> 00:36:57.269 have to deal with it. How much nicer is it to watch championship football when you're 00:36:57.353 --> 00:37:00.700 not having to look at VAR or worry about VAR? Well, I never look. 00:37:00.784 --> 00:37:04.870 If I go to a Premier League game, I don't sit there with the same absolute avid 00:37:04.954 --> 00:37:07.932 interest when the goal goes, when the ball goes in. Right. 00:37:08.015 --> 00:37:12.155 So I don't get you know, I'm not leaping out of my seat at a Premier League game 00:37:12.238 --> 00:37:13.980 like I am at a championship game. 00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:23.457 used to do you know i've always done look straight at the linesman if there's no 00:37:23.540 --> 00:37:28.038 flag you're going for it we're still going for it we're losing hats and you know 00:37:28.121 --> 00:37:32.160 we're hugging our neighbors and i'm looking down because my kids all sit 00:37:32.243 --> 00:37:36.912 in season tickets a few rows about 12 rows over a block and we're like yeah but you 00:37:36.996 --> 00:37:41.664 know so it is great um so uh that's still fantastic you just look at the linesman's 00:37:41.748 --> 00:37:46.500 flag sorry assistant referees flag see how old i am yes assistant referees flag and 00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:53.686 But, you know, that's not to say I'm not, you know, you can't be a fan of VAR, 00:37:53.770 --> 00:37:58.558 can you? VAR was, you know, VAR was a response to the pressure of clubs wanting 00:37:58.641 --> 00:38:02.504 to get decisions more right. Or writer, I don't know what it is, 00:38:02.587 --> 00:38:05.156 more right, probably. And that's, you know, 00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:08.300 and the pressure of media and the pressure of fans. 00:38:08.384 --> 00:38:11.075 Everybody wanted to get more decisions right. 00:38:11.158 --> 00:38:13.387 And it does get more decisions right. 00:38:13.470 --> 00:38:16.914 The problem is those that become arguable are even more emotive. 00:38:16.997 --> 00:38:21.157 But there's no doubt they have made more right decisions as a result of that. 00:38:21.240 --> 00:38:25.400 And this is the thing. I guess it's taken some of the joy away in the Premier 00:38:25.483 --> 00:38:29.643 League, I think. Don't know. I don't know. I'm not a fan of a Premier League. 00:38:29.727 --> 00:38:34.272 You do know because you just said that you don't celebrate a goal yet in the Premier 00:38:34.356 --> 00:38:38.406 League. No, I don't ever celebrate a goal when I'm watching because I'm not 00:38:38.489 --> 00:38:41.630 supporting any of the teams. You know what you just said. 00:38:43.470 --> 00:38:46.865 25 years, privileged enough to be invited to Premier League games, 00:38:46.948 --> 00:38:51.134 and I sit there and I spot as a neutral. I've never been to a Premier League game 00:38:51.218 --> 00:38:54.138 wanting one side to win more than another. Really? Never. 00:38:54.222 --> 00:38:58.355 I'm hoping that to change next year or the year after when Ashton Gate hosts its 00:38:58.438 --> 00:39:02.307 first Premier League game. If you watch an absolute screamer go top bins in 00:39:02.391 --> 00:39:04.521 the Premier League and you want to go, oh, 00:39:04.604 --> 00:39:07.262 turn to your friend next to you and go, what a goal. 00:39:07.345 --> 00:39:10.371 I just want the referees to come out of the game all right. 00:39:10.455 --> 00:39:12.510 Because when you're there as a neutral, 00:39:13.470 --> 00:39:17.251 thought if if a ceo of the premier league when i was there if you can't if 00:39:17.334 --> 00:39:20.906 the institutions can't support the referees who can right because it's 00:39:20.989 --> 00:39:25.136 the toughest job and believe you me a game without one is not a game at all right 00:39:25.219 --> 00:39:29.261 and they've got a tough job and i always used every game i was at i just wanted 00:39:29.344 --> 00:39:33.438 the referees to come out okay you were a qualified referee i was back in the day 00:39:33.522 --> 00:39:37.720 back in the day back in the day yeah back in the day when you could would you have 00:39:37.803 --> 00:39:38.637 wanted var i 00:39:43.470 --> 00:39:46.875 I don't know what it's like to run out at Anfield or Old Trafford and take 00:39:46.959 --> 00:39:50.128 the pressure of that. It's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure. 00:39:50.211 --> 00:39:54.041 The refs talk about that pressure. Look, all I know is the referees wanted the help 00:39:54.124 --> 00:39:56.870 because they too want to get it right. They wanted the help. 00:39:56.953 --> 00:39:59.927 In my time at the Premier League, the clubs generally were huge. 00:40:00.010 --> 00:40:05.188 supportive and some of the people that you might not necessarily think were you know 00:40:05.272 --> 00:40:10.137 particularly warm and cuddly and would would be very supportive of referees one 00:40:10.220 --> 00:40:15.148 final thing um one thing that the prime minister has talked about is um drinking 00:40:15.231 --> 00:40:19.846 yeah at football matches um i think it's discriminatory of of football fans 00:40:19.929 --> 00:40:23.750 that they can't drink in view of the pitch now it's worked in 00:40:24.460 --> 00:40:28.405 in trials in women's football in some stadiums, different products. 00:40:28.489 --> 00:40:33.216 You're looking at me like I'm mental for asking you this question. It's current. 00:40:33.299 --> 00:40:36.643 I know what you're asking. Yeah. What do you think? Well, 00:40:36.726 --> 00:40:41.213 I don't think it was helpful that Andy Burnham used the word discriminatory. 00:40:41.296 --> 00:40:45.603 In the early 80s, Margaret Thatcher didn't want any fans to be, you know, 00:40:45.686 --> 00:40:49.331 way fans at matches. The Hooghulism was shocking. And in 1986, 00:40:49.414 --> 00:40:52.240 not a single match was broadcast on television. 00:40:54.460 --> 00:40:58.286 programme and people have to remember these were different times. 00:40:58.370 --> 00:41:02.417 40 years ago. So all that Mr Burnham needed to say and I think is is 00:41:02.500 --> 00:41:06.550 Maybe it's time for the people whose job it is to keep these grounds safe and 00:41:06.633 --> 00:41:10.737 to keep the consumer product as good as it is now to sit around and let's have 00:41:10.820 --> 00:41:14.279 a discussion about it. I guess the police need to be involved with 00:41:14.363 --> 00:41:17.071 this conversation, don't they? Of course. Safe what? 00:41:17.154 --> 00:41:20.160 Police and safety officers, people who run clubs, right? 00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:24.084 But the trouble is you can't prove an unknown, can you? You know, 00:41:24.167 --> 00:41:26.782 it's very hard, very hard, all these things. You know, 00:41:26.865 --> 00:41:30.079 what if we did this, what if we did that? But it comes down to me, 00:41:30.163 --> 00:41:32.278 to the consumer experience. All I would say, 00:41:32.361 --> 00:41:36.424 I've been privileged and lucky enough to be invited to go to Twickenham quite a lot 00:41:36.508 --> 00:41:39.722 over the last 20 years. And that's become quite, that is not good. 00:41:39.805 --> 00:41:43.668 Are you telling me that you've never snuck a cider into a coffee cup and sat in 00:41:43.752 --> 00:41:46.002 the director's box? No, but I would say this. 00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:55.781 every match does slip a little brandy into a hot chocolate at halftime she is someone 00:41:55.864 --> 00:42:00.666 that would be my friend she's everybody's friend she's marvelous Richard thank you I 00:42:00.750 --> 00:42:05.494 actually could talk to you for days um I know you don't want that but I could thank 00:42:05.577 --> 00:42:10.031 you so much for coming on hopefully you can come on again uh now when it comes 00:42:10.114 --> 00:42:14.800 to you as fans we don't want you sitting on the sidelines we are bringing fans off 00:42:14.883 --> 00:42:19.420 the bench which is a short segment at the end of every show where we bring you 00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:25.451 the show. We want the stories that you normally tell your mates after match day 00:42:25.535 --> 00:42:28.781 or race day, the great calls, the questionable decisions, 00:42:28.864 --> 00:42:31.351 and the stories that you'll never live down, 00:42:31.434 --> 00:42:35.381 the moments that made you fall in love with sport in the first place. 00:42:35.465 --> 00:42:38.594 You can DM us at highperformance.business on Instagram. 00:42:38.677 --> 00:42:40.727 And I've got one this week where I'm 00:42:40.810 --> 00:42:46.454 I was at a football club teaching some wonderful academy scholars how to deal 00:42:46.537 --> 00:42:52.187 with us, the media. And well, let's just say it made me feel incredibly old. 00:42:52.270 --> 00:42:56.893 One of them at the end asked me about the time I interviewed Kylian Mbappe. 00:42:56.976 --> 00:42:59.110 Right. And he said to me, quote... 00:42:59.200 --> 00:43:02.830 is he faster than the cars? Does that mean anything to you? No. 00:43:02.913 --> 00:43:07.427 You're looking as confused as I did. Yeah. And so I said, I'm sorry, what now? 00:43:07.511 --> 00:43:10.340 And he said, is he faster than the cars? And it, 00:43:10.510 --> 00:43:14.442 I genuinely had no idea what he meant. I am chronically online. 00:43:14.525 --> 00:43:18.139 I would count myself as someone that's often on Instagram. 00:43:18.222 --> 00:43:23.301 I had literally no idea. It's a meme. It's a Martin Brundle thing that Mbappe got 00:43:23.385 --> 00:43:28.273 asked at a Grand Prix. I had no idea. And I felt like this small and this old, 00:43:28.356 --> 00:43:32.416 like I had some Twinset and Pearls. I was the oldest person ever. 00:43:32.499 --> 00:43:35.284 There was you thinking you had cred. Exactly. 00:43:35.367 --> 00:43:38.490 I walked in there feeling all right about myself. 00:43:40.510 --> 00:43:43.901 so that's my story for the week yeah that's not the worst thing that could 00:43:43.985 --> 00:43:47.658 happen to you no it's not no there's been far worse in 25 years in football yeah 00:43:47.741 --> 00:43:49.241 we'll leave it there all right 00:43:55.450 --> 00:43:56.283 you