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Well this week's guest spent almost 20
years turning the Premier League into

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a global commercial

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powerhouse. We were lucky enough to get
Richard Scudamore's thoughts on Manchester

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City but of

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course in true news tradition it was
minutes before the Manchester City charges

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dropped. So we haven't got his thoughts on
that but we do have his thoughts on fans,

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investment in the game

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and of course the independent regulator.
Welcome to High Performance Business

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in proud partnership

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with IFS. Thank you so much. You and I
have chatted quite a lot in the past,

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but never with a brew. We never had
a chance to sit down and do this.

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I want to start with the obvious,

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the Premier League. What do you
think your legacy is from that job?

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It's lovely to see you,

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nice to talk to you, but the word legacy
always like sends me off into a bit of

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a hair on the back of the neck.
Don't really like it, you know,

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because legacy is a bit
too much ego in that for

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me really just the whole concept but what
you do when you're in any job and it was

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a job it was a

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job of work and people you know
for whatever else it might be it was a job

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of work do you leave it

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in a better shape than you than when you
arrived and that's all you can do right

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that's all you can

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do and it has gone on to greater things
bigger better brighter greater things

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since I've left

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and that's really the thing you're
proudest of in many in many ways people

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talk about numbers so much

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and I know when you came in and where you
left for example broadcasting rights when

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you left it was

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worth over five billion that package isn't
it people talk about numbers that they

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talk about

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revenue yes of course they do that's the
sort of the big headline isn't it you know

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the tv rights

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were worth x and now they're worth y but
nothing nothing happens without the sports

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does it and so

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the most I think the thing that still
amazes me and I watch a lot of football

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still is how good

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it looks you know from and in 1992
something happened these 20 clubs got

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together with the

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benefit of some extra cash from sky
they produced a quality of football that

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the likes of which we'd

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never seen before we'd seen football
before it was nothing new the leagues

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really didn't

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reorganize there was you know same top
division and there was three divisions

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below promotion

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relegation 11 v 11 everything was much the
same you know referees made bad decisions

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then they

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make bad decisions now. And so nothing's
really changed other than it does look

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very exciting.

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When you came in did you have an inkling
or did you absolutely know financially we

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would be where we are now No not
at all What I knew was this I come from

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the newspaper business
That was my background

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And I knew about content and I knew both
journalistically good content people would

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be prepared to pay for.

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And I also knew that audiences
were created in those newspapers

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and advertising, if you like,
would be attached to those newspapers.

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And there was a commercial model
that I understood how it worked.

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When I came into the Premier
League, I was at the EFL before,

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and I remember my presentation
I gave to the EFL board,

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you could, quite frankly,
you could give today.

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It was literally, I can
remember it to this day,

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and Trevor Birch, the EFL chief exec,
and I've discussed it relatively recently.

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And so nothing much has changed.

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The Premier League is the Premier League.

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The EFL has its huge merits as well.

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Get over the divorce.
They've gone off to do this.

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They haven't gone anywhere.

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they haven't gone anywhere physically yeah
they may have gone somewhere commercially

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but they

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haven't gone anywhere physically and so
i did i did think that proper content

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and the way sky

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were promoting it and presenting it and
the way pvc were doing match of the day

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highlights which

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was the great promoter of the live rights
on the sunday this there's a lovely little

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ecosystem here

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i just thought it could be very good you
said at the time that your sort of job

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was keeping everyone equally dissatisfied.

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Do you think that's
still true to this day?

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Do you think it's actually getting
even harder to keep everyone happy?

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You don't keep anyone happy.

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This is football.
Your listeners are not that daft, right?

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They're not happy.
There's no fan that's happy.

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There's hardly any fans that are happy.

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There are fans that go through
short period of happiness,

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and the deep joy of winning away from home

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on a Tuesday night in the northwest
of England still never leaves you, right?

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But that's a temporary thing.

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What you can't do if you are
running a league, you are there.

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You are basically the prime
pillar of independence.

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And your job is to try and come up with
initiatives and things that are broadly

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acceptable to everyone, probably
precisely acceptable to no one.

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So if you handed the job
over to an individual club,

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they would all have a different view.

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often depending on where they naturally
or not naturally sit in the league table

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those facing

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relegation have a view those threatened
with getting into those relegation places

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have a view

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those that are qualifying for europe
on a regular basis have a view and those

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that are aspiring to qualify for Europe on
a regular basis have a view So you do need

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somebody with a it not an entirely

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independent view in a sense, but it is,
your job is to take all those views,

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put them into the mixer,

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put them into the blender really and come
back with something that is palatable

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to everyone,

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but not precisely what any one of them
would have done had they been left

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to themselves.

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So what then is your biggest takeaway
from what you learn from dealing with club

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owners on a sort of regular basis?

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Hard work, communication, because you
have to convince them you're neutral.

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You know, at my I remember
at my leaving event, you know,

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one of the one of the bigger
clubs saying that, you know,

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I was always a softie
for the smaller clubs.

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And somebody from the smaller clubs stood
up and said that they always knew I was

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in the pocket of the big clubs.

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So that actually was good, right?

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I'm happy with that. You're like the BBC.

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I'm happy with that.
I'm just happy with that.

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And both things can be true at the
same time, if you know what I mean,

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because you have to have
a relationship with all of them.

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When you sort of look
at the Premier League now,

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because you've been out
of it now for some time,

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are you able to sort of stand back and go,
I wouldn't have done it like that?

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I don't ever look at it
as though I was in the job.

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I never have. Because that doesn't
suit me and my mental health.

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It doesn't suit, I'm sure,
my successors, right?

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But you just don't get into that.

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The last thing you want to be is old
Uncle Fester in the corner going,

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I wouldn't have done it like that, right?

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Because everything's a new challenge.

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Well, yeah, I'll do that again later.

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But the reality is, you know,
I was very lucky in two senses.

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I got out at a time that suited me.

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I was nearly 60.
I'd done it for almost 20 years.

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And it's a good old ride like that.

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But I never saw anything coming.

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But the thing I never particularly saw,
neither did anybody else, was COVID.

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The people who came after me faced
much bigger challenges than I ever faced

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because I was able from the entire
time I was there to start in August,

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end in May, 380 matches.

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You know, all the games played,
all the games, you know,

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the league tables were the league tables.

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And it was just much easier.
Let's speak about Man City.

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This is a huge, huge thing that the
Premier League are having to grapple

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with one of its hugest teams.

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This not falling on your doorstep.

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Well, it started when I was there.

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Of course it was going for that long.

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It started when I was there.
Yeah, but I'm not.

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Look, you have your own
challenges to face, don't you?

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we had you know we had Ashley Cole being
tapped up we had all sorts of things

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there's always things

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going on we had Tevez Mascherano we had
all sorts of things going on I forgot

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about Tevez Mascherano

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no you didn't no you didn't I'm glad I
remembered you you know wherever you are

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you know but I also

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you know I had much more I had also
existential things when I was there we had

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the European

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Commission wanting to you know stop
television rights being sold collectively

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fought that for

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five years and so you know these jobs I
know people think these must be the best

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jobs in the

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world because you know you just meet
footballers and you know you just go

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to matches and there are

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just now right now you know the the
whether it was me or now richard masters

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there's always

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challenges and i'm i don't i don't sit
thinking oh god i'm glad that wasn't me i

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you know you just

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because it's not it's not what you think
can you believe it's been going this long

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though

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no i can't believe it neither can anybody
but then neither can richard masters

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either you know

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so so he's as frustrated believe you me
he is as frustrated as anybody and at some

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point and

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And that's why, in fairness to him, he
does his faithful pre-season media a few

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weeks back. He says, I can't say
anything because I don't know anything.

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And when I do, everybody will know.

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And that is genuinely how it is.

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He's as frustrated as anyone.

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We've just had another
record-breaking summer transfer.

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Then we're looking at, what,
three and a half billion.

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Is there anything about
the spending now that worries you?

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Do you think it's sustainable?

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Clearly, it's a product of,
yeah, like all things.

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Like how much mortgage can somebody
have is a product of how much they earn

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and what the interest rates
are and everything else.

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And so the transfer fees are a product
of what income they think is –

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what income they have, what they
guarantee to have and what they think is –

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they might have in the future. And the
great bit about the way the Premier League

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is set up, everything is pretty much
rolling three years in advance. So,

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you know, they know
what they're... I mean,

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it's very easy to predict revenues in the
Premier League because of the way the TV

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deals are done. Very little default.
There's been hardly any.

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And then you know what your
season ticket revenues are.

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It's a pretty easy model to write
the revenue. It's a very... therefore,

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it's very easy...

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to work out what you can spend. And there
are all sorts of people out there because

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of those two factors,
particularly the certainty of revenue,

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that are prepared to advance
you or use that money.

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So I say worry is not the word, right?
But of course, what you have to do,

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all sport has to keep to the fundamentals
of being able to ultimately pay,

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you know, pay the obligations
that you've put the club under.

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touchwood touchwood the primary clubs
have been able to do that but even uefa

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recently have come out with a report that
says you know they're they're concerned

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they're concerned that some clubs
are reliant on how much they're going

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to eventually sell these players for
in the future and that kind of brings us

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on to financial fair play as well because
it's all been changed this year um firstly

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do you see why UEFA are worried? Can
you understand why they're sort of noting

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a word of caution? This notion of
financial fair play started in UEFA and...

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It's very hard to know what
the true motivation was. Was it?

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I still don't know the answer to this
question. Was it genuine motivation?

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a concern for the sustainability
and the longevity of clubs? Or was it,

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and there's a lot of pressure on this,
another European scheme egged on by

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the jealous to peg
the Premier League back?

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Because that is still real today. And it
was as real when financial fair play came

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in,

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it was fundamentally UEFA wanted
nobody to be able to spend money

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more than their revenue.
That was it. And around our table,

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00:12:09,117 --> 00:12:13,631
the Manchester United and the Arsenal's
were all for it because they had

233
00:12:13,714 --> 00:12:17,526
the biggest revenues.
And so UEFA have always been out there.

234
00:12:17,609 --> 00:12:21,357
And I think they would dearly
have loved from the beginning,

235
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,954
here's your income, here's what you
can spend. No loss, no owner equity,

236
00:12:26,038 --> 00:12:27,570
no injection of capital.

237
00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:40,049
latterly you know sovereign wealth fund
please dump all your cash into our club so

238
00:12:40,132 --> 00:12:44,248
that we can you know we can take
on the rest it's always been the nature

239
00:12:44,332 --> 00:12:48,739
of european football so look uefa have
a great role to play because of course

240
00:12:48,823 --> 00:12:53,405
they've got that fun there's fantastic
competitions and so they're they're right

241
00:12:53,488 --> 00:12:58,187
to express their opinion but i don't see
it quite in the same concerning uh way um

242
00:12:58,271 --> 00:13:02,470
not in the same way okay so obviously
we've got these new financial fair

243
00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:09,070
go over them again because they're,
you know, complicated. Um,

244
00:13:09,190 --> 00:13:16,070
I think broadly they were brought in in
an attempt to level the playing field.

245
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,613
We can argue that on another day.
I think we might. Yeah,

246
00:13:19,696 --> 00:13:22,000
a lot of critics think it has changed.

247
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,103
sort of shorn up the position
of the bigger clubs?

248
00:13:25,187 --> 00:13:29,480
Where do you stand on it? Well,
the one thing that's hard to defend...

249
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,180
and therefore I think
needs looking at, is...

250
00:13:34,570 --> 00:13:37,570
The absolute unfettered, uncapped

251
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,760
amount of money spent
on player wages and costs.

252
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,240
And therefore, if you like,
Fair Play, which was UEFA's,

253
00:13:46,323 --> 00:13:49,979
not the Premier League's,
the Premier League has obviously PSR,

254
00:13:50,062 --> 00:13:54,964
which was a different calculation, because
we insisted on there being some allowance

255
00:13:55,047 --> 00:13:58,584
quite a lot, really, when I was there.
And it's the same now.

256
00:13:58,668 --> 00:14:02,798
There was an allowance for clubs
to be able to spend and inject capital

257
00:14:02,881 --> 00:14:07,012
and inject equity to get them closer
to those that had higher revenues.

258
00:14:07,095 --> 00:14:11,047
Otherwise, you just lock the table in,
wouldn't you, from one to 20,

259
00:14:11,130 --> 00:14:12,080
you may as well.

260
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,000
I think...

261
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:19,455
So I don't have a problem with the idea
that is there a way of at least putting

262
00:14:19,538 --> 00:14:24,145
some dampener on that wage bill
that the clubs run. And that's a very –

263
00:14:24,228 --> 00:14:29,364
that's a different part of the economics
than transfer fees and everything else

264
00:14:29,447 --> 00:14:33,129
because that money goes
circulating round as you've seen.

265
00:14:33,212 --> 00:14:38,479
So the relationship between costs of a
playing squad in terms of its salary costs

266
00:14:38,563 --> 00:14:42,460
and its own costs and its
agents' fees and everything else,

267
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,529
I don't think there's any real
problem with putting some limit.

268
00:14:47,612 --> 00:14:51,448
It's not a hard cap as such because
it's related as a percentage of income.

269
00:14:51,531 --> 00:14:53,747
I don't think there's
any problem with that.

270
00:14:53,830 --> 00:14:57,770
But people add it all up and make it
one and the same problem. Transfer fees,

271
00:14:57,854 --> 00:15:01,846
to me, is very different because those
transfer fees are going somewhere else.

272
00:15:01,929 --> 00:15:05,974
When you pay those transfer fees, I mean,
there was more. The interesting stat,

273
00:15:06,057 --> 00:15:10,259
I haven't got the precise number, but it
was the highest ever recirculation within

274
00:15:10,342 --> 00:15:12,380
the Premier League this summer as well,

275
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,501
within the league, which is again, and
down into the championship and down into

276
00:15:18,585 --> 00:15:21,467
the EFL. So I think it's
a different thing. I'm not...

277
00:15:21,550 --> 00:15:24,873
I look from a distance.
I'm not intimately involved.

278
00:15:24,956 --> 00:15:30,310
I don't look at every club's details. But
I think some sort of cap to stop the wage

279
00:15:30,393 --> 00:15:34,698
bill going right through the roof
uncapped, I think is a good idea.

280
00:15:34,782 --> 00:15:39,545
And the squad cost ratios get you there.
That's really interesting because

281
00:15:39,629 --> 00:15:43,690
obviously they have a wage cap
in leagues such as MLS. Mm-hmm.

282
00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:47,443
But would that not be an immediate
sort of restriction of trade?

283
00:15:47,526 --> 00:15:51,863
The Premier League's become huge. How do
you then attract the big players if you

284
00:15:51,947 --> 00:15:55,234
are saying to them, actually,
you can't earn Harling's level?

285
00:15:55,317 --> 00:15:58,494
Sound like a union leader.
In another life, maybe, Richard.

286
00:15:58,577 --> 00:16:02,196
Can you imagine Natalie Perks,
union leader? She could do it. Yeah,

287
00:16:02,279 --> 00:16:05,125
I know you could. Oh,
no doubt you could do it. Look,

288
00:16:05,208 --> 00:16:08,550
is it a restraint of trade?
We're talking about the aggregate.

289
00:16:08,634 --> 00:16:12,170
We're not talking about,
it's not an individual wage cap, is it?

290
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:18,647
300, 400 million. Are you really saying
that that stops a club from signing any

291
00:16:18,730 --> 00:16:23,147
player, really? I mean, it's really
the way you divide your deck, isn't it?

292
00:16:23,230 --> 00:16:27,010
Yeah. Maybe I'm sort of thinking more.
If you are, let's say...

293
00:16:27,250 --> 00:16:31,554
Manchester City and you want to attract
the absolute best players which of course

294
00:16:31,638 --> 00:16:35,780
they do if you've only and I'm using uh
rabbit you know rabbit ears here um if

295
00:16:35,863 --> 00:16:40,276
you've only got 400 million you've got to
then go right we want Haaland we want xyz

296
00:16:40,359 --> 00:16:44,393
and how much we're going to pay them
it's that's a jigsaw that's a of course

297
00:16:44,476 --> 00:16:48,672
but then they've got too many players
anyway haven't they all I'm saying is all

298
00:16:48,756 --> 00:16:50,110
I'm saying is there is no

299
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,175
There is no real reason why if you
really wanted a particular player,

300
00:16:54,259 --> 00:16:57,822
you couldn't find room for them
in your squad. And it's still,

301
00:16:57,905 --> 00:17:02,528
I go back to something I said earlier,
there's still only 11 on the field at any

302
00:17:02,611 --> 00:17:07,116
one time. So if what you're saying is,
can they just hoard and have, you know,

303
00:17:07,199 --> 00:17:09,107
25 of the world's top 30 players?

304
00:17:09,190 --> 00:17:12,265
No, they can't. But then
is that wrong, really? You know,

305
00:17:12,348 --> 00:17:15,091
I don't see where there's...
It's absolutely wrong.

306
00:17:15,174 --> 00:17:19,635
There is nothing under the current rules
that stops a club that's got a good plan,

307
00:17:19,718 --> 00:17:23,735
a good recruitment plan. And remember,
people talk about player, you know,

308
00:17:23,819 --> 00:17:27,614
player recruitment. It's not
recruitment anymore. It's player trading.

309
00:17:27,698 --> 00:17:31,881
You know, you are... There's a dynamism
to your squad these days that is, OK,

310
00:17:31,964 --> 00:17:36,092
you know, this is our squad. This is what
we've got. This is what we'd like.

311
00:17:36,176 --> 00:17:40,673
Who are we exiting now? to up the quality
of our squad. And so that's how it works.

312
00:17:40,756 --> 00:17:42,908
And so I don't see
it's really a restraint.

313
00:17:42,991 --> 00:17:46,702
I never thought I would sit here
and hear you effectively argue, sort of,

314
00:17:46,785 --> 00:17:50,392
it sounds like what you're doing,
for a wage cap in the Premier League.

315
00:17:50,475 --> 00:17:54,082
If it gets to a level where it
is completely ludicrous, like, you know,

316
00:17:54,165 --> 00:17:58,135
the strength of the Premier League and
the way it divides its central revenue,

317
00:17:58,219 --> 00:18:00,994
where the, you know,
I don't know what the numbers are,

318
00:18:01,077 --> 00:18:05,203
but the top clubs probably now from the
central distribution are probably getting

319
00:18:05,287 --> 00:18:06,690
somewhere near 200 million.

320
00:18:07,690 --> 00:18:11,999
smallest club. People talk about this,
they get 100 million when they go down.

321
00:18:12,083 --> 00:18:16,223
No, they don't. No, they do. They get
100, 110 million for being in, right?

322
00:18:16,306 --> 00:18:18,390
They will get about 110, 120 million.

323
00:18:18,610 --> 00:18:24,547
And that... The point of that, that ratio,
that 1.82 to 1, whatever the ratio is,

324
00:18:24,631 --> 00:18:25,697
top to bottom...

325
00:18:25,780 --> 00:18:29,826
Guess what it does? It allows the bottom
teams to put a squad out that gives them

326
00:18:29,909 --> 00:18:31,540
a chance of taking points off...

327
00:18:31,630 --> 00:18:35,710
the top teams and that's what
everybody wants the biggest jaw i've had

328
00:18:36,010 --> 00:18:39,269
since I left, is looking at the league
table with all the bees up there.

329
00:18:39,353 --> 00:18:42,473
You know, the Bournemouth,
the Brighton's, the Brentford's, you know,

330
00:18:42,556 --> 00:18:44,608
because when you look
at the league table now,

331
00:18:44,692 --> 00:18:47,537
when you look at the league
table last year, the way it ended.

332
00:18:47,620 --> 00:18:51,647
There's names up there. You think,
how can they be there? And are you...

333
00:18:51,730 --> 00:18:55,142
also saying this with another
B cap on, because of course,

334
00:18:55,226 --> 00:18:58,879
with Bristol City, you're
on the board of directors, you know,

335
00:18:58,962 --> 00:19:02,676
you want to eventually become
a Premier League side, I presume,

336
00:19:02,759 --> 00:19:06,617
and coming up into a world
where they're Maybe aren't.

337
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:10,006
you know, unfettered wages,
which are just going out of control,

338
00:19:10,089 --> 00:19:13,819
maybe a world where they are a bit
more control. That would benefit you,

339
00:19:13,903 --> 00:19:17,844
wouldn't it? I don't know. I don't sit
around that table necessarily looking

340
00:19:17,928 --> 00:19:21,552
at things through, you know,
through through the through the same lens

341
00:19:21,635 --> 00:19:25,660
as everybody, even in the championship.
You know, I'm talking about I think.

342
00:19:25,810 --> 00:19:29,087
I don't want to make a bigger
issue than there must be a number,

343
00:19:29,170 --> 00:19:33,182
a very big number, beyond which you
don't need for a wage bill to put together

344
00:19:33,265 --> 00:19:37,014
a fantastic Premier League team.
And of course, the other aspect of this,

345
00:19:37,097 --> 00:19:41,319
we mustn't forget, it's not just putting
together a brilliant Premier League team.

346
00:19:41,402 --> 00:19:45,204
It's putting together a Premier League
team that then goes on and competes

347
00:19:45,288 --> 00:19:49,247
and does well in Europe. And that's
the difference between the Premier League

348
00:19:49,330 --> 00:19:51,819
and many other sports,
between many other things,

349
00:19:51,902 --> 00:19:55,210
because the Premier League isn't
necessarily the end to itself.

350
00:19:55,810 --> 00:19:59,937
You're building a system
that allows the biggest club.

351
00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:04,121
to go on and succeed in Europe. And that's
part of the model, always has been.

352
00:20:04,204 --> 00:20:06,374
So you've got nearly three I's, don't you?

353
00:20:06,457 --> 00:20:09,002
You've got one eye on what's
good for the league.

354
00:20:09,086 --> 00:20:12,221
You've got one eye on what's
good for the whole of football,

355
00:20:12,304 --> 00:20:16,405
because it's still part of an ecosystem.
And you've got one eye on what's good

356
00:20:16,488 --> 00:20:20,536
for the clubs that then go on into Europe.
And you have to, that's the trick.

357
00:20:20,619 --> 00:20:21,957
Let's talk a bit about...

358
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,234
Who regulates football?
Because you were always very clear.

359
00:20:26,317 --> 00:20:30,584
You believed self-regulation
is the best form of regulation.

360
00:20:30,668 --> 00:20:34,220
Do you still believe that now?
Self-regulation...

361
00:20:34,340 --> 00:20:38,840
The way you said it even sounds like it's
some sort of way you just do it yourself.

362
00:20:38,923 --> 00:20:41,960
But let's go first of all,
number one, law of the land.

363
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,413
So everybody has to abide
by the laws of the land.

364
00:20:45,497 --> 00:20:48,568
And there's lots of things
around finance, around money,

365
00:20:48,651 --> 00:20:52,820
around accounts and accounting.
You know, the law of the land comes first.

366
00:20:52,910 --> 00:20:55,719
And then up until most
of the time I was there,

367
00:20:55,802 --> 00:21:00,150
the law of Europe and the ECJ
and everything else came first and second.

368
00:21:00,233 --> 00:21:03,042
Right. So and so that's
not quite the same now.

369
00:21:03,125 --> 00:21:07,781
And then you have the FIFA statutes
and what they they decreed had to happen.

370
00:21:07,864 --> 00:21:12,581
Then you have the FA statutes. And so
the league themselves really was a trade

371
00:21:12,664 --> 00:21:17,565
association rule book between how the 20
were going to behave towards each other.

372
00:21:17,648 --> 00:21:18,447
And therefore,

373
00:21:18,530 --> 00:21:22,375
I always believe, and I believe
to this day, there is enough regulation.

374
00:21:22,458 --> 00:21:26,521
We know where you stand on an independent
football regulator. They are here.

375
00:21:26,604 --> 00:21:30,122
We're going to hear of their state
of the game report fairly soon.

376
00:21:30,205 --> 00:21:34,595
I guess for a lot of people, it was the
fans' point of view and how fans felt like

377
00:21:34,679 --> 00:21:37,650
they were being maybe priced
out of their football club.

378
00:21:37,734 --> 00:21:41,251
Or it was sort of getting out of control.
We saw teams going bust,

379
00:21:41,334 --> 00:21:45,016
all these kind of things, which
is why it was essentially brought in.

380
00:21:45,099 --> 00:21:46,190
Do you think it's...

381
00:21:46,940 --> 00:21:49,760
more something that should regulate

382
00:21:49,970 --> 00:21:54,863
championship and below and therefore not
the premier league do you think they they

383
00:21:54,946 --> 00:21:59,840
more or less no i wouldn't no no no but
even in your question you know clubs going

384
00:21:59,923 --> 00:22:04,513
we've seen clubs going bust you know
they don't very few do and very few have

385
00:22:04,596 --> 00:22:09,489
finances are a problem though in football
the truth is clubs do not go bust what's

386
00:22:09,572 --> 00:22:14,405
the definition of professional football
you either you pay to play and people pay

387
00:22:14,488 --> 00:22:18,190
to watch there's no other
definition really and so since 1888

388
00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:24,760
play by local business owners or factories
or whatever and people have come in

389
00:22:24,844 --> 00:22:29,697
and paid a little bit of money to watch
and so what's happened it's amazing how

390
00:22:29,780 --> 00:22:34,820
many people have been found to keep those
clubs alive right and on occasion though

391
00:22:34,904 --> 00:22:39,444
they get to a point where through
mismanagement bad management or bad luck

392
00:22:39,527 --> 00:22:44,318
you know a ball can hit a post and you
know in this game and come back out and

393
00:22:44,401 --> 00:22:49,150
a ball hits a post goes in your life
is different right life is different so

394
00:22:49,970 --> 00:22:52,518
So, management and mismanagement
to luck and bad luck,

395
00:22:52,601 --> 00:22:56,075
because it's a massive part of football,
because it's a low-scoring game.

396
00:22:56,159 --> 00:22:59,145
0-0 is very similar to 0-1.
It's very similar to 1-0, isn't it?

397
00:22:59,229 --> 00:23:02,849
And what a difference your life makes.
You're either in the Champions League

398
00:23:02,932 --> 00:23:06,016
or not. You're either relegated,
promoted, Premier League or not.

399
00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:08,209
You're either in business
or not in business.

400
00:23:08,293 --> 00:23:11,817
That's kind of why we love it as well.
Exactly. And so that gets to my...

401
00:23:11,900 --> 00:23:12,733
By point.

402
00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:20,350
Acast powers the world's best podcasts.
Here's a show we recommend.

403
00:23:20,570 --> 00:23:24,508
Hey guys, it's Nylea Devorah
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404
00:23:24,591 --> 00:23:27,265
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405
00:23:27,349 --> 00:23:31,370
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406
00:23:31,580 --> 00:23:36,424
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407
00:23:36,507 --> 00:23:40,995
and feel the way we do. We don't take
things too seriously and know it's okay

408
00:23:41,078 --> 00:23:42,740
to not know all the answers.

409
00:23:42,950 --> 00:23:46,222
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410
00:23:46,305 --> 00:23:49,672
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411
00:23:49,756 --> 00:23:53,123
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412
00:23:53,207 --> 00:23:53,997
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413
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:59,220
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414
00:24:01,850 --> 00:24:03,850
.

415
00:24:03,950 --> 00:24:05,037
Thank you.

416
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:09,610
Ever since time began, it's been
a speculative business and people take

417
00:24:09,693 --> 00:24:13,733
risks. And I do understand,
listen, I'm sitting here complacent,

418
00:24:13,816 --> 00:24:18,435
because the only club that really,
really matters to me has been owned by

419
00:24:18,518 --> 00:24:21,913
a billionaire for the last
26 years. It's quite handy.

420
00:24:21,997 --> 00:24:27,002
Who has put a shed load of money in and
kept us in business for those 26 years.

421
00:24:27,086 --> 00:24:32,413
And there's not a single Bristol City fan
who wakes up in the morning worrying about

422
00:24:32,496 --> 00:24:34,300
the existence of their club.

423
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,054
You know, they worry about other
things and they're never satisfied.

424
00:24:38,137 --> 00:24:41,182
They'd like to see us in the Premier
League and all that stuff.

425
00:24:41,266 --> 00:24:43,963
I get all that, but there's
really no fundamental worry.

426
00:24:44,047 --> 00:24:47,191
That is the game, though.
The game is you find the money you can,

427
00:24:47,275 --> 00:24:50,320
you put those resources against
it, and some people take risks,

428
00:24:50,403 --> 00:24:53,598
just like Peter Risdale back
in the 2000s with Leeds, took a risk,

429
00:24:53,681 --> 00:24:55,331
got them to the Champions League.

430
00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,499
you know, stick or twist, if you'd have
asked the 36,500 Leeds fans at Ellen Road

431
00:25:00,582 --> 00:25:04,794
that night to stick or twist, you know
the answer to that question. Twist,

432
00:25:04,878 --> 00:25:08,045
back at the farm, come on,
you know, and it jeopardises,

433
00:25:08,128 --> 00:25:10,160
ultimately it jeopardises the club.

434
00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:16,161
What is the job of the regulator beyond
that? If the idea that the leagues,

435
00:25:16,245 --> 00:25:20,448
both the Premier League when I was there,
the Premier League now, the EFL,

436
00:25:20,532 --> 00:25:22,997
under the guidance
of Trevor and Rick Parry,

437
00:25:23,081 --> 00:25:27,458
they are every day concerned in the
sustainability and the viability of those

438
00:25:27,541 --> 00:25:32,060
clubs. It's the most important thing.
It's a bit like when you get on a plane.

439
00:25:32,420 --> 00:25:35,922
I know we all sort of dismiss it.
When the pilot says, you know,

440
00:25:36,006 --> 00:25:39,956
your safety is our number one priority,
everybody goes, oh, yeah, right,

441
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,382
come on, get on, get on with the food
or get on with them, get the Wi-Fi going.

442
00:25:44,466 --> 00:25:46,848
But you just wash it
over you. But actually,

443
00:25:46,931 --> 00:25:49,340
when you actually
logically think about it.

444
00:25:49,610 --> 00:25:53,005
That is their number one priority.
And when you run a league,

445
00:25:53,088 --> 00:25:57,225
your number one priority is the
sustainability and the continued existence

446
00:25:57,308 --> 00:26:01,273
of football clubs. So nobody's going
to do anything to jeopardise them.

447
00:26:01,356 --> 00:26:06,006
I guess that a lot of people as fans will
feel like the independent regulator's job

448
00:26:06,089 --> 00:26:09,256
is to protect them.
And we've seen a lot of fans protest,

449
00:26:09,339 --> 00:26:12,107
certainly about ticket prices.
You said, you know,

450
00:26:12,190 --> 00:26:16,410
a fan comes along and pays a little
bit to watch a football match. I don't

451
00:26:16,580 --> 00:26:19,857
think they're paying a little
bit to watch football now.

452
00:26:19,940 --> 00:26:24,417
And maybe that's a role that, you know,
does a football club have to do more

453
00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:29,157
for its fans? What bit? There's not an
intimate understanding of what currently

454
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,960
exists within the rules, right?
So what is it about their club

455
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:37,830
that they really, really want protecting
because ground location is protected

456
00:26:37,913 --> 00:26:41,086
by rule. You know, club assets,
club badges and, you know,

457
00:26:41,169 --> 00:26:44,454
is protected by rule.
What the regulator is not going to do,

458
00:26:44,538 --> 00:26:48,946
it's not like Ofcom or Ofgen or Ofort.
They're not going to come in and regulate

459
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:52,876
the prices of what it costs to go
to a Premier League football game or

460
00:26:52,959 --> 00:26:57,142
a championship game. It's just not
within the remit. It's just so, you know,

461
00:26:57,226 --> 00:26:58,910
the things that really matter.

462
00:26:59,450 --> 00:27:02,054
to fans, right,
are pretty heavily regulated.

463
00:27:02,137 --> 00:27:05,278
The things that irritate fans,
and I get it, you know,

464
00:27:05,361 --> 00:27:08,502
displacement of football
matches, why can't, you know,

465
00:27:08,585 --> 00:27:12,980
the timing of kickoffs and the notice
of kickoff times and all those things

466
00:27:13,064 --> 00:27:17,638
and ticket pricing per se, you know,
I'm afraid the regulator is not going to,

467
00:27:17,721 --> 00:27:21,698
you know, I don't want to set
expectations too high for David Cogan,

468
00:27:21,781 --> 00:27:25,101
who I know well, but, you know,
you've got to be careful.

469
00:27:25,185 --> 00:27:28,170
This isn't going to be
the panacea for everything.

470
00:27:29,450 --> 00:27:33,344
in dreamland from a football
environment, it's not going to be.

471
00:27:33,427 --> 00:27:38,583
The main objective of the regulator is to
ensure sustainability of a football club.

472
00:27:38,666 --> 00:27:41,570
Let me put you a different
scenario. Let's say

473
00:27:42,170 --> 00:27:44,570
the regulator came along and said...

474
00:27:44,810 --> 00:27:45,477
Thank you.

475
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,380
Right, all 92 of you that currently exist,
we're going to guarantee sustainability.

476
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:57,100
But... Not a single one of you is allowed
to invest a penny to improve your team.

477
00:28:04,580 --> 00:28:08,649
And I can put my fan hat on here.
They take sustainability as a given.

478
00:28:08,732 --> 00:28:13,216
My club will always exist. What I really
want my club to do is to improve its

479
00:28:13,299 --> 00:28:17,368
position, wherever you are in the league.
And so that's why it's hard,

480
00:28:17,452 --> 00:28:20,037
because fandom have
an unrealistic... I mean,

481
00:28:20,121 --> 00:28:24,190
they don't really want sustainability.
We could put rules in tomorrow.

482
00:28:24,273 --> 00:28:28,935
The leagues could have put rules in 10,
20 years ago to say there is no way that

483
00:28:29,018 --> 00:28:32,909
this club can ever, you know,
ever be put at risk. But in so doing,

484
00:28:32,992 --> 00:28:34,060
you'd have to say,

485
00:28:34,580 --> 00:28:38,323
take no speculation, you can make no
investment because what the fans really

486
00:28:38,406 --> 00:28:39,087
want is the

487
00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:43,338
really want is their club to be a little
bit higher up the league than they were.

488
00:28:43,422 --> 00:28:47,380
Or in Europe next season. And whilst
that exists, whilst that tension exists,

489
00:28:47,463 --> 00:28:51,610
that's ultimately the tension. And there
is a tension, isn't there? Yeah, yeah.

490
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,780
uh An owner comes in, say you're a private
equity firm and you're buying up a Premier

491
00:28:57,863 --> 00:29:02,489
League club. Commercialisation of football
means that you can see there's an amount

492
00:29:02,573 --> 00:29:07,142
of money that you could start to make more
than what the club currently is making.

493
00:29:07,225 --> 00:29:10,320
And I guess that's where
the tension comes in with fans.

494
00:29:10,403 --> 00:29:13,070
English football generally,
every single fan...

495
00:29:13,460 --> 00:29:15,220
is attending a subsidized event.

496
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,986
subsidised by an owner often, right?
I mean, that's the truth of it.

497
00:29:21,069 --> 00:29:23,060
If that sounds a bit harsh...

498
00:29:23,180 --> 00:29:28,577
All of us that go to Bristol City every
week are having a subsidised event.

499
00:29:28,661 --> 00:29:34,424
It's a nicer stadium and it's a bigger
wage bill and it's a bigger squad than we

500
00:29:34,507 --> 00:29:40,197
are prepared to pay from our pockets.
So we've established you're not a big fan

501
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:45,458
of an independent regulator. Is that fair?
No, in fairness, in fairness,

502
00:29:45,542 --> 00:29:49,780
if it focuses minds and gets
people thinking about things.

503
00:29:53,180 --> 00:29:56,880
I've read the brief I read everything
I just still don't know quite what it's

504
00:29:56,963 --> 00:29:59,917
there to do because people
or even now are obsessing about it

505
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,101
backstop powers to try and arrange
some foursome settlement between the two

506
00:30:05,184 --> 00:30:09,110
leagues. But English football
needs to do that for itself.

507
00:30:09,194 --> 00:30:14,571
There was that huge moment in 2021 where
the six big teams wanted to break away

508
00:30:14,654 --> 00:30:18,940
and join the European Super League.
Take us back to that time.

509
00:30:19,350 --> 00:30:22,784
I was on record for the weeks and months
before when it was brewing of telling

510
00:30:22,868 --> 00:30:25,490
people, whoever rang me and said,
what do you think? I said,

511
00:30:25,573 --> 00:30:29,143
it's never going to happen. Can't happen.
And they go, well, why can't it happen?

512
00:30:29,226 --> 00:30:32,390
I said, well, first of all, I mean,
these clubs would have to leave the,

513
00:30:32,473 --> 00:30:34,960
the English clubs would have
to leave the Premier League.

514
00:30:35,044 --> 00:30:37,982
Then they'd have to leave the Champions
League. And then, you know,

515
00:30:38,065 --> 00:30:41,184
they wouldn't be, then there'd be
sanctions, you know, across the game.

516
00:30:41,267 --> 00:30:44,566
The rule book, there's nothing within
the rules that allows them to go. So,

517
00:30:44,649 --> 00:30:47,599
and that's, I said, on a sort
of a legal basis, in my view.

518
00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:53,594
find out i said that'll stop it in its
tracks and they'll be well yeah but it's

519
00:30:53,678 --> 00:30:57,758
already somebody was saying you know
people were saying to me oh yes but you

520
00:30:57,841 --> 00:31:02,414
know jp morgan have already done this this
and this i said jp morgan can do what they

521
00:31:02,497 --> 00:31:06,742
want i'm telling you they haven't met
they haven't met a fan base you know head

522
00:31:06,825 --> 00:31:11,069
on this this plan hasn't even met its
first level of resistance yet i said so i

523
00:31:11,153 --> 00:31:15,590
don't think and so you you couch this as
you know under self-regulation the super

524
00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:20,670
You know, despite...

525
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,225
I spoke to all the clubs and I told
them, it can't happen. Don't do it.

526
00:31:24,309 --> 00:31:27,124
It can't happen.
Bad for your reputation. It can't happen.

527
00:31:27,208 --> 00:31:30,073
But they persisted because
they didn't want to be left out.

528
00:31:30,157 --> 00:31:33,072
They thought if everybody else
in Europe was going to do it,

529
00:31:33,156 --> 00:31:35,722
they needed to be part of it.
It's not a real reason,

530
00:31:35,805 --> 00:31:38,721
but it's kind of a reason.
But it was never going to happen.

531
00:31:38,804 --> 00:31:42,219
Was that the best sort of example
of fan power, where fans really did?

532
00:31:42,303 --> 00:31:46,168
Because within 48 hours, that was dead
in the water once the fans got involved.

533
00:31:46,251 --> 00:31:49,617
It was dead because the Premier League,
the institutions, government,

534
00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:53,437
Boris Johnson, It was just like
it was never going to happen.

535
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:58,177
It was just never going to happen. It
couldn't happen because it was a complete

536
00:31:58,260 --> 00:32:02,698
rip-up of what... really,
domestic league football is all about.

537
00:32:02,781 --> 00:32:06,999
You can talk about football
all day, every day. The unit,

538
00:32:07,082 --> 00:32:11,610
the real unit of football is a club,
and the real cake is...

539
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:17,394
is domestic league football and everything
else is icing and cherries whether that's

540
00:32:17,477 --> 00:32:22,049
you know european competition or the
cherry of the maybe the you know the

541
00:32:22,133 --> 00:32:27,279
the fa cup or the cherry of the club world
championship who knows but but the cake

542
00:32:27,362 --> 00:32:32,190
has always been domestic football and
that's never going to be ripped up when

543
00:32:32,273 --> 00:32:37,100
you were there you had a strong opinion
about janny and fantino i did yeah uh

544
00:32:37,184 --> 00:32:40,500
the club world cup was a
particular tension point um

545
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,148
What did you make of what happened
after the World Cup with his plan to try

546
00:32:45,231 --> 00:32:47,760
and sell it off?
What did you think of that?

547
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:53,079
I was first very offended by the red
card rescinding for... Flo Balogun, yeah.

548
00:32:53,162 --> 00:32:57,573
The idea that, you know, Donald Trump,
if he did or he didn't, who knows,

549
00:32:57,657 --> 00:33:01,760
and Infantino suddenly think it's
a good idea to rescind a red card.

550
00:33:01,843 --> 00:33:05,577
It's just that, to me, was more
shocking than what came after.

551
00:33:05,660 --> 00:33:08,655
Because what came after
is just another, you know,

552
00:33:08,739 --> 00:33:11,611
it's another idea that gets
run up the flagpole.

553
00:33:11,694 --> 00:33:14,196
It's probably got no chance of succeeding.

554
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,220
But I thought the red card goes
right to the heart of the sport.

555
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,529
Well, the sport. What is the sport?
The sport is, you play by the sport,

556
00:33:22,612 --> 00:33:27,135
those are the rules of the game. The FA
and UEFA have been pretty clear on how

557
00:33:27,219 --> 00:33:30,974
they feel about Infantino.
Do you think football deserves better?

558
00:33:31,057 --> 00:33:34,104
Do you think it needs
a different person at the helm?

559
00:33:34,187 --> 00:33:38,711
So I never in my 20 years walked around
thinking or walked into a club where I

560
00:33:38,794 --> 00:33:43,494
thought they're being nice to me because
they think I'm going to leave some money

561
00:33:43,578 --> 00:33:45,877
behind because I had no influence on it.

562
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,884
the only influence i had was outside
was putting the money into the top of

563
00:33:49,967 --> 00:33:54,379
the hopper and then of course i had some
influence in them the way we set the rules

564
00:33:54,462 --> 00:33:58,874
as to how it was divided but it was it was
not a specific club it was just you know

565
00:33:58,957 --> 00:34:02,719
the whole the whole the whole way
the rules set it compare and contrast

566
00:34:02,802 --> 00:34:07,243
that with fifa Just the idea that somebody
can go on a campaign trail and say,

567
00:34:07,327 --> 00:34:10,394
if you vote for me,
I'll give you all three million.

568
00:34:10,477 --> 00:34:15,180
That's how he got the job in 2016. Or
the way he gets red carpeted when he goes

569
00:34:15,263 --> 00:34:19,299
places because, hey, you know,
be nice if you could leave. You know,

570
00:34:19,382 --> 00:34:23,843
as the private jet leaves, it'd be
nice if you could drop a bag of a couple

571
00:34:23,926 --> 00:34:28,629
of minutes out the back door. The way
FIFA don't have any real precision around

572
00:34:28,712 --> 00:34:30,590
the way the money's handed out.

573
00:34:33,510 --> 00:34:38,038
spend in the presidency and i think it
makes for that's the bit that i would

574
00:34:38,121 --> 00:34:42,709
change the most is an agreed all the
national associations however many there

575
00:34:42,793 --> 00:34:47,381
are now 213 of them sitting around in it
you know having a proper go rules as

576
00:34:47,464 --> 00:34:51,992
to how the money gets divided then
of course when you've got rules about how

577
00:34:52,075 --> 00:34:56,664
the money's divided there's less of an
issue about you know you're then freer

578
00:34:56,747 --> 00:35:01,578
to go and you know commercialize and do
things at the top because at least people

579
00:35:01,661 --> 00:35:02,495
can see where

580
00:35:03,510 --> 00:35:06,607
it's going. When you were
at the Premier League, you...

581
00:35:06,690 --> 00:35:10,933
were quite vocal about wanting that 39th
it was called the 39th game abroad

582
00:35:11,016 --> 00:35:15,663
and it's worked really well in places like
nfl often come over and have games here

583
00:35:15,746 --> 00:35:20,077
where do you stand on it now do you
still feel it's something they should do

584
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,584
It was an idea, you've got to remember
when it was, it was 2007-2008,

585
00:35:24,667 --> 00:35:29,417
and there was some doubt as to whether
media rights would continue to grow

586
00:35:29,501 --> 00:35:33,075
and whether international
rights would continue to grow,

587
00:35:33,159 --> 00:35:37,387
absent of actually going and visiting,
right? As it turns out now,

588
00:35:37,470 --> 00:35:40,522
there was no need to go
play those games abroad.

589
00:35:40,605 --> 00:35:45,160
The revenues now internationally
for the Premier League are larger than

590
00:35:45,243 --> 00:35:46,680
the domestic revenues,

591
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,290
but that's partly to do with the
commitment of broadcasters and

592
00:35:54,373 --> 00:35:58,905
the commitment to broadcasters not
just the volume but the quality of

593
00:35:58,988 --> 00:36:04,322
the broadcast and the advent of 4k high
definition television and so you know you

594
00:36:04,405 --> 00:36:09,873
can now quite easily sit at home on a very
nice large screen 4k tv and get a pretty

595
00:36:09,956 --> 00:36:14,889
decent experience in the way the
broadcasters but you know the way nbc have

596
00:36:14,972 --> 00:36:15,806
gone

597
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,738
australia you go to asia you go to all
these places hong kong singapore it looks

598
00:36:24,821 --> 00:36:29,341
fantastic and therefore the premier league
has continued over the last 20 years

599
00:36:29,424 --> 00:36:34,293
to look fantastic on television and that's
a combination of better quality production

600
00:36:34,377 --> 00:36:39,129
better quality of tv sets um and just so
so the need to feel like you know in order

601
00:36:39,213 --> 00:36:43,091
to you know continue to grow
internationally was i'm not so sure you

602
00:36:43,175 --> 00:36:48,590
need to go and play the games there
anymore Another thing about fans is

603
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,783
their thoughts on VAR. Now, you are
obviously a fan of a club that doesn't

604
00:36:52,866 --> 00:36:57,269
have to deal with it. How much nicer is it
to watch championship football when you're

605
00:36:57,353 --> 00:37:00,700
not having to look at VAR or worry
about VAR? Well, I never look.

606
00:37:00,784 --> 00:37:04,870
If I go to a Premier League game, I don't
sit there with the same absolute avid

607
00:37:04,954 --> 00:37:07,932
interest when the goal goes,
when the ball goes in. Right.

608
00:37:08,015 --> 00:37:12,155
So I don't get you know, I'm not leaping
out of my seat at a Premier League game

609
00:37:12,238 --> 00:37:13,980
like I am at a championship game.

610
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,457
used to do you know i've always done look
straight at the linesman if there's no

611
00:37:23,540 --> 00:37:28,038
flag you're going for it we're still going
for it we're losing hats and you know

612
00:37:28,121 --> 00:37:32,160
we're hugging our neighbors and i'm
looking down because my kids all sit

613
00:37:32,243 --> 00:37:36,912
in season tickets a few rows about 12 rows
over a block and we're like yeah but you

614
00:37:36,996 --> 00:37:41,664
know so it is great um so uh that's still
fantastic you just look at the linesman's

615
00:37:41,748 --> 00:37:46,500
flag sorry assistant referees flag see how
old i am yes assistant referees flag and

616
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,686
But, you know, that's not to say I'm not,
you know, you can't be a fan of VAR,

617
00:37:53,770 --> 00:37:58,558
can you? VAR was, you know, VAR was a
response to the pressure of clubs wanting

618
00:37:58,641 --> 00:38:02,504
to get decisions more right.
Or writer, I don't know what it is,

619
00:38:02,587 --> 00:38:05,156
more right, probably.
And that's, you know,

620
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,300
and the pressure of media
and the pressure of fans.

621
00:38:08,384 --> 00:38:11,075
Everybody wanted to get
more decisions right.

622
00:38:11,158 --> 00:38:13,387
And it does get more decisions right.

623
00:38:13,470 --> 00:38:16,914
The problem is those that become
arguable are even more emotive.

624
00:38:16,997 --> 00:38:21,157
But there's no doubt they have made
more right decisions as a result of that.

625
00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:25,400
And this is the thing. I guess it's
taken some of the joy away in the Premier

626
00:38:25,483 --> 00:38:29,643
League, I think. Don't know. I don't know.
I'm not a fan of a Premier League.

627
00:38:29,727 --> 00:38:34,272
You do know because you just said that you
don't celebrate a goal yet in the Premier

628
00:38:34,356 --> 00:38:38,406
League. No, I don't ever celebrate
a goal when I'm watching because I'm not

629
00:38:38,489 --> 00:38:41,630
supporting any of the teams.
You know what you just said.

630
00:38:43,470 --> 00:38:46,865
25 years, privileged enough to be
invited to Premier League games,

631
00:38:46,948 --> 00:38:51,134
and I sit there and I spot as a neutral.
I've never been to a Premier League game

632
00:38:51,218 --> 00:38:54,138
wanting one side to win more
than another. Really? Never.

633
00:38:54,222 --> 00:38:58,355
I'm hoping that to change next year or
the year after when Ashton Gate hosts its

634
00:38:58,438 --> 00:39:02,307
first Premier League game. If you watch
an absolute screamer go top bins in

635
00:39:02,391 --> 00:39:04,521
the Premier League and you want to go, oh,

636
00:39:04,604 --> 00:39:07,262
turn to your friend next
to you and go, what a goal.

637
00:39:07,345 --> 00:39:10,371
I just want the referees to come
out of the game all right.

638
00:39:10,455 --> 00:39:12,510
Because when you're there as a neutral,

639
00:39:13,470 --> 00:39:17,251
thought if if a ceo of the premier
league when i was there if you can't if

640
00:39:17,334 --> 00:39:20,906
the institutions can't support
the referees who can right because it's

641
00:39:20,989 --> 00:39:25,136
the toughest job and believe you me a game
without one is not a game at all right

642
00:39:25,219 --> 00:39:29,261
and they've got a tough job and i always
used every game i was at i just wanted

643
00:39:29,344 --> 00:39:33,438
the referees to come out okay you were
a qualified referee i was back in the day

644
00:39:33,522 --> 00:39:37,720
back in the day back in the day yeah back
in the day when you could would you have

645
00:39:37,803 --> 00:39:38,637
wanted var i

646
00:39:43,470 --> 00:39:46,875
I don't know what it's like to run
out at Anfield or Old Trafford and take

647
00:39:46,959 --> 00:39:50,128
the pressure of that. It's a lot
of pressure. It's a lot of pressure.

648
00:39:50,211 --> 00:39:54,041
The refs talk about that pressure. Look,
all I know is the referees wanted the help

649
00:39:54,124 --> 00:39:56,870
because they too want to get
it right. They wanted the help.

650
00:39:56,953 --> 00:39:59,927
In my time at the Premier League,
the clubs generally were huge.

651
00:40:00,010 --> 00:40:05,188
supportive and some of the people that you
might not necessarily think were you know

652
00:40:05,272 --> 00:40:10,137
particularly warm and cuddly and would
would be very supportive of referees one

653
00:40:10,220 --> 00:40:15,148
final thing um one thing that the prime
minister has talked about is um drinking

654
00:40:15,231 --> 00:40:19,846
yeah at football matches um i think
it's discriminatory of of football fans

655
00:40:19,929 --> 00:40:23,750
that they can't drink in view
of the pitch now it's worked in

656
00:40:24,460 --> 00:40:28,405
in trials in women's football
in some stadiums, different products.

657
00:40:28,489 --> 00:40:33,216
You're looking at me like I'm mental for
asking you this question. It's current.

658
00:40:33,299 --> 00:40:36,643
I know what you're asking.
Yeah. What do you think? Well,

659
00:40:36,726 --> 00:40:41,213
I don't think it was helpful that Andy
Burnham used the word discriminatory.

660
00:40:41,296 --> 00:40:45,603
In the early 80s, Margaret Thatcher
didn't want any fans to be, you know,

661
00:40:45,686 --> 00:40:49,331
way fans at matches.
The Hooghulism was shocking. And in 1986,

662
00:40:49,414 --> 00:40:52,240
not a single match
was broadcast on television.

663
00:40:54,460 --> 00:40:58,286
programme and people have to remember
these were different times.

664
00:40:58,370 --> 00:41:02,417
40 years ago. So all that Mr Burnham
needed to say and I think is is

665
00:41:02,500 --> 00:41:06,550
Maybe it's time for the people whose
job it is to keep these grounds safe and

666
00:41:06,633 --> 00:41:10,737
to keep the consumer product as good
as it is now to sit around and let's have

667
00:41:10,820 --> 00:41:14,279
a discussion about it. I guess
the police need to be involved with

668
00:41:14,363 --> 00:41:17,071
this conversation, don't they?
Of course. Safe what?

669
00:41:17,154 --> 00:41:20,160
Police and safety officers,
people who run clubs, right?

670
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,084
But the trouble is you can't prove
an unknown, can you? You know,

671
00:41:24,167 --> 00:41:26,782
it's very hard, very hard,
all these things. You know,

672
00:41:26,865 --> 00:41:30,079
what if we did this, what if we
did that? But it comes down to me,

673
00:41:30,163 --> 00:41:32,278
to the consumer experience.
All I would say,

674
00:41:32,361 --> 00:41:36,424
I've been privileged and lucky enough to
be invited to go to Twickenham quite a lot

675
00:41:36,508 --> 00:41:39,722
over the last 20 years.
And that's become quite, that is not good.

676
00:41:39,805 --> 00:41:43,668
Are you telling me that you've never
snuck a cider into a coffee cup and sat in

677
00:41:43,752 --> 00:41:46,002
the director's box?
No, but I would say this.

678
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,781
every match does slip a little brandy into
a hot chocolate at halftime she is someone

679
00:41:55,864 --> 00:42:00,666
that would be my friend she's everybody's
friend she's marvelous Richard thank you I

680
00:42:00,750 --> 00:42:05,494
actually could talk to you for days um I
know you don't want that but I could thank

681
00:42:05,577 --> 00:42:10,031
you so much for coming on hopefully you
can come on again uh now when it comes

682
00:42:10,114 --> 00:42:14,800
to you as fans we don't want you sitting
on the sidelines we are bringing fans off

683
00:42:14,883 --> 00:42:19,420
the bench which is a short segment at
the end of every show where we bring you

684
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,451
the show. We want the stories that you
normally tell your mates after match day

685
00:42:25,535 --> 00:42:28,781
or race day, the great calls,
the questionable decisions,

686
00:42:28,864 --> 00:42:31,351
and the stories that
you'll never live down,

687
00:42:31,434 --> 00:42:35,381
the moments that made you fall
in love with sport in the first place.

688
00:42:35,465 --> 00:42:38,594
You can DM us
at highperformance.business on Instagram.

689
00:42:38,677 --> 00:42:40,727
And I've got one this week where I'm

690
00:42:40,810 --> 00:42:46,454
I was at a football club teaching some
wonderful academy scholars how to deal

691
00:42:46,537 --> 00:42:52,187
with us, the media. And well, let's
just say it made me feel incredibly old.

692
00:42:52,270 --> 00:42:56,893
One of them at the end asked me about
the time I interviewed Kylian Mbappe.

693
00:42:56,976 --> 00:42:59,110
Right. And he said to me, quote...

694
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,830
is he faster than the cars?
Does that mean anything to you? No.

695
00:43:02,913 --> 00:43:07,427
You're looking as confused as I did.
Yeah. And so I said, I'm sorry, what now?

696
00:43:07,511 --> 00:43:10,340
And he said, is he faster
than the cars? And it,

697
00:43:10,510 --> 00:43:14,442
I genuinely had no idea what he
meant. I am chronically online.

698
00:43:14,525 --> 00:43:18,139
I would count myself as someone
that's often on Instagram.

699
00:43:18,222 --> 00:43:23,301
I had literally no idea. It's a meme. It's
a Martin Brundle thing that Mbappe got

700
00:43:23,385 --> 00:43:28,273
asked at a Grand Prix. I had no idea.
And I felt like this small and this old,

701
00:43:28,356 --> 00:43:32,416
like I had some Twinset and Pearls.
I was the oldest person ever.

702
00:43:32,499 --> 00:43:35,284
There was you thinking
you had cred. Exactly.

703
00:43:35,367 --> 00:43:38,490
I walked in there feeling
all right about myself.

704
00:43:40,510 --> 00:43:43,901
so that's my story for the week yeah
that's not the worst thing that could

705
00:43:43,985 --> 00:43:47,658
happen to you no it's not no there's been
far worse in 25 years in football yeah

706
00:43:47,741 --> 00:43:49,241
we'll leave it there all right

707
00:43:55,450 --> 00:43:56,283
you