WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.575 Hello and welcome to DEI Advisors. My name is Lam Elliott on behalf of DEI Advisors, 00:00:05.658 --> 00:00:10.357 which is an Arizona nonprofit dedicated to empowering personal success. 00:00:10.441 --> 00:00:14.938 And today I'm delighted to have Heather Turner as our guest advisor. 00:00:15.021 --> 00:00:19.451 And Heather is the CEO and co-founder of Tamarack Capital Partners, 00:00:19.534 --> 00:00:25.176 which is a privately held hospitality real estate investment firm that currently owns 00:00:25.260 --> 00:00:29.840 and manages 11 full service hotels and resorts. So welcome, Heather. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.860 Thank you. Thank you, Lynn. Thanks so much for inviting me to join you. Absolutely. 00:00:34.943 --> 00:00:38.957 I've been really looking forward to this interview for a while now. 00:00:39.041 --> 00:00:43.972 So happy to be here today. Now, I know you have a very interesting career journey. 00:00:44.055 --> 00:00:47.702 When I looked at it, I realized you started working in Kyoto. 00:00:47.786 --> 00:00:52.534 You've worked at Disney twice. You've worked at private equity firms before you 00:00:52.617 --> 00:00:53.840 co-founded Tamarack. 00:01:00.540 --> 00:01:05.157 role. But could you share with us some of the inflection points in your career 00:01:05.241 --> 00:01:09.580 and what were their particular factors that contributed to your success? 00:01:10.620 --> 00:01:15.691 Sure. My first job out of college was with the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs 00:01:15.775 --> 00:01:17.700 in Kyoto, Japan. And I think... 00:01:17.880 --> 00:01:22.686 One of the great things about that was it was incredibly scary to go do and set me 00:01:22.769 --> 00:01:26.860 up to feel like just about any other challenge is much more achievable 00:01:26.943 --> 00:01:30.139 and reasonable than taking a job in a foreign language. 00:01:30.222 --> 00:01:34.849 When I was decent at Japanese, but I wasn't at a place where I should have been 00:01:34.933 --> 00:01:37.533 negotiating government contracts in Japanese. 00:01:37.616 --> 00:01:42.422 And that's what a big part of my job was. And so I think starting out that way set 00:01:42.505 --> 00:01:46.500 me up to feel like, oh, you can do that. You can run with anything. 00:01:47.880 --> 00:01:51.993 applying for a job that you're not qualified for is something that men are 00:01:52.076 --> 00:01:56.302 much more likely to do than women. But I think having applied for and gotten 00:01:56.385 --> 00:02:00.838 that as my very first job, that's a little bit of part of my approach to things. 00:02:00.922 --> 00:02:03.360 Don't wait until you feel 100% confident in 00:02:03.450 --> 00:02:05.941 that you can do the job, kind of jump in and give it a try. 00:02:06.025 --> 00:02:09.476 And if someone will give you a shot, then I think that's a really positive thing. 00:02:09.559 --> 00:02:12.705 After that, I went to work for the Walt Disney Company for the first time, 00:02:12.788 --> 00:02:14.977 as you mentioned, and then off to business school. 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:19.503 and back to Disney. And similarly, when I got into hotel real estate investing, 00:02:19.587 --> 00:02:24.145 it was with a firm called Merritt's Wolf. And when I was being interviewed there, 00:02:24.228 --> 00:02:26.497 one of the founders said, you were good. 00:02:26.580 --> 00:02:29.896 negotiator because that's what we do a lot of. And I was like, oh, 00:02:29.979 --> 00:02:32.728 I don't think so. And he said, why not? And I was like, 00:02:32.812 --> 00:02:36.900 because I really only negotiate for the Walt Disney Company and we have something 00:02:36.983 --> 00:02:38.917 nobody else has. So our leverage is... 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:41.931 out of balance. And that makes my job really easy. 00:02:42.015 --> 00:02:46.875 So if I had a fair playing field, I'm not sure how good I would be. So once again, 00:02:46.958 --> 00:02:51.420 I knew I didn't necessarily have all the skills I needed for that job, but 00:02:51.510 --> 00:02:55.935 applied for and was given the opportunity and haven't really looked back. 00:02:56.019 --> 00:03:00.506 So I've been doing hotel real estate investing for the last 22 years or so 00:03:00.589 --> 00:03:05.344 and really enjoying it. That's fantastic. And I love what you talked about, 00:03:05.427 --> 00:03:10.211 which was that you jumped into something even when you didn't know if you could do 00:03:10.294 --> 00:03:12.941 it. And so I love your approach to challenges, 00:03:13.025 --> 00:03:15.434 which is what I wanted to talk about next. 00:03:15.517 --> 00:03:19.945 How do you approach challenges when you come upon them? What's your mindset? 00:03:20.028 --> 00:03:23.447 What what do you do first? How do you think about it? Yeah, 00:03:23.530 --> 00:03:28.160 I think we've had lots of challenges in the hotel space in the last few years. 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:38.280 I think about who else in my organization, in the – 00:03:38.790 --> 00:03:44.439 kind of in the deal at large can be of value in overcoming the challenge. 00:03:44.522 --> 00:03:46.250 And so how do we all – 00:03:46.650 --> 00:03:49.580 put our heads together and figure something out together. 00:03:49.664 --> 00:03:52.730 And I think that kind of teamwork approach, whether it is, 00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:57.631 tapping into a resource at one of the brands or at one of our capital partners. 00:03:57.714 --> 00:04:01.714 We have the benefit of being surrounded by a lot of very intelligent, 00:04:01.797 --> 00:04:04.495 professional people who are pretty exceptional. 00:04:04.578 --> 00:04:09.406 And so we have the opportunity, I think, to punch a little bit above our own weight 00:04:09.489 --> 00:04:10.087 in terms of 00:04:10.170 --> 00:04:14.530 pulling together groupthink and coming out with good outcomes by doing so. 00:04:15.480 --> 00:04:19.670 That's great. Thank you. Thank you for that. Along those lines, taking risks, 00:04:19.753 --> 00:04:22.889 you don't get to where you are today without taking risks. 00:04:22.972 --> 00:04:27.384 And you've talked about some of them. Can you share a little bit about an example 00:04:27.468 --> 00:04:31.935 of success in taking a risk and how you prepare yourself mentally to take a chance 00:04:32.019 --> 00:04:32.797 on something? 00:04:32.880 --> 00:04:37.473 Sure. Let me think of some. I don't want to talk about just a personal story 00:04:37.556 --> 00:04:40.940 and one that's a little bit more business oriented. Um, 00:04:41.070 --> 00:04:46.630 When I was a senior in college, my roommate and I decided to go skydiving. 00:04:46.980 --> 00:04:51.033 And I think it was, I think we were actually probably invited by some other 00:04:51.116 --> 00:04:55.113 people. But the two of us said, we're about to go apply for our first job, 00:04:55.197 --> 00:04:56.520 so why don't we do this? 00:04:56.640 --> 00:05:01.275 to reset our sense of risk. I was fortunate I didn't face a lot of adversity 00:05:01.359 --> 00:05:06.180 growing up, and so this was something that I felt like was a way for me to say, 00:05:06.263 --> 00:05:10.154 okay, even in a really risky circumstance, I'm going to be fine. 00:05:10.237 --> 00:05:13.506 And so right before job interviews, we went skydiving, 00:05:13.590 --> 00:05:18.060 which was a ton of fun and I think also helps put things in perspective. 00:05:18.150 --> 00:05:22.272 Right. You're jumping out of a moving aircraft with the L's and a parachute 00:05:22.355 --> 00:05:25.748 on your back and landing it fine. And if you think about that, 00:05:25.831 --> 00:05:28.410 you're about to jump into a new risk. I think. 00:05:28.500 --> 00:05:32.120 That kind of mindset is helpful. Yeah, I've had someone describe that kind 00:05:32.203 --> 00:05:36.023 of thing as level two fun. It's the thing that's fun when you look back on it, 00:05:36.106 --> 00:05:39.776 not while you're doing it in the moment. That's a great way to describe it, 00:05:39.859 --> 00:05:45.445 level two fun. And I think in terms of taking risks professionally, you know, 00:05:45.529 --> 00:05:51.132 striking out on our own and starting Tamarai Capital Partners certainly felt 00:05:51.215 --> 00:05:56.052 like a big risk at the time. I think we had no idea the pandemic was coming, 00:05:56.136 --> 00:05:58.610 so we didn't know how big of a risk it was. 00:05:58.693 --> 00:06:02.833 But it was the type of thing that I spent a lot of time thinking about. 00:06:02.917 --> 00:06:07.140 It was probably a year or so of planning and preparation and probably – 00:06:07.350 --> 00:06:10.412 six to nine months of negotiating my exit with my prior firm, 00:06:10.496 --> 00:06:12.610 because we did it in a very friendly way. 00:06:13.020 --> 00:06:16.347 And one of the ways that we try to mitigate risk in our company, 00:06:16.430 --> 00:06:20.503 we raise capital on a deal-by-deal basis. So we're what most people would call 00:06:20.586 --> 00:06:24.393 an operating partner. And we come in with a small portion of the capital, 00:06:24.476 --> 00:06:28.336 and we're looking for somebody else to put in the majority of the capital. 00:06:28.419 --> 00:06:31.586 And in exchange, we'll do the vast majority of the hard work. 00:06:31.670 --> 00:06:35.956 And I think our biggest risk in spinning out of an old firm and starting a new one 00:06:36.039 --> 00:06:40.005 was, how do you do that and not alienate your capital partners who have kind 00:06:40.088 --> 00:06:42.060 of gotten you to where you are today? 00:06:42.510 --> 00:06:45.896 And what we did want to do was leave those folks behind, say, 00:06:45.979 --> 00:06:47.970 we're going to go start a new firm. 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:52.211 and you're going to be left with whoever's left at the old firm while we take off 00:06:52.294 --> 00:06:55.805 on our new adventure. So good luck on those deals that you did with us for 00:06:55.889 --> 00:06:59.254 the last five or ten years. So we were able to structure something that 00:06:59.337 --> 00:06:59.857 was really – 00:06:59.940 --> 00:07:04.536 I think fairly unique in the industry and quite productive for both sides in which 00:07:04.620 --> 00:07:09.387 we brought along all of our responsibility for the deals that we've done for the last 00:07:09.471 --> 00:07:14.124 five or 10 years that we still own. So we kept those capital partners best interest 00:07:14.207 --> 00:07:18.461 at heart and made sure that we were continuing to asset manage and portfolio 00:07:18.545 --> 00:07:22.117 manage and execute on the dispositions of those deals properly. 00:07:22.200 --> 00:07:27.198 while looking at new deals under our new banner and our first three deals that we 00:07:27.282 --> 00:07:32.406 did at Samarack were with repeat capital partners that we had done work with before 00:07:32.489 --> 00:07:35.497 at Dinak, and we tried it. Thank you. 00:07:35.580 --> 00:07:39.852 I love that you, the way you looked at it and the way you set up your company, 00:07:39.936 --> 00:07:44.431 you're always looking for the win-win and you were able to not only preserve those 00:07:44.515 --> 00:07:46.860 old relationships, but carry them forward. 00:07:47.370 --> 00:07:52.599 into your new company. And it flows right into the next thing I wanted to talk 00:07:52.682 --> 00:07:55.732 about, which is about developing your network. 00:07:55.815 --> 00:08:00.226 And we actually met negotiating across the table from one another. 00:08:00.310 --> 00:08:04.585 And I definitely found you to be always looking for the win-win, 00:08:04.668 --> 00:08:09.489 always really calm, always really thoughtful about your approach and how 00:08:09.572 --> 00:08:13.590 to find a way forward for both parties. And I know in terms 00:08:17.370 --> 00:08:23.227 uncomfortable. How have you developed your network in a way that works for you 00:08:23.310 --> 00:08:27.270 and suits your personality? Yeah, I don't play golf. 00:08:27.420 --> 00:08:31.808 So I don't do some of the more traditional real estate networking events, 00:08:31.892 --> 00:08:37.015 and I recognize that. But I do really like some of the smaller forum-type things like 00:08:37.098 --> 00:08:40.261 the AHLA Roundtable Hotel Asset Managers Association. 00:08:40.345 --> 00:08:45.000 I was very involved in that organization for many years, less so now, but... 00:08:45.090 --> 00:08:49.970 ULI, those types of groups where you can get to know people when you're not in 00:08:50.054 --> 00:08:52.751 the middle So that when you are in the middle of the deal, 00:08:52.835 --> 00:08:56.018 you have a little bit of foundation to work with them on. I actually find, 00:08:56.102 --> 00:08:59.287 and this kind of goes to, we're spending a lot of time analyzing things. 00:08:59.370 --> 00:09:02.917 whether large conferences and conventions and things like that are going to 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:07.782 come back and be quite as robust as they always used to be. And personally, 00:09:07.866 --> 00:09:12.457 I find them to be very effective. So NYU and Alice and those types of things. 00:09:12.540 --> 00:09:16.917 I find those to be great uses of time because you get the opportunity to see 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:21.319 lots of people in a short period of time. But frankly, it's not always fun. 00:09:21.402 --> 00:09:25.957 Like networking is not always fabulous. I went to an industry dinner one time. 00:09:26.040 --> 00:09:29.467 And I walked in a room of 200 or 300 people, and there were three women there. 00:09:29.550 --> 00:09:34.616 And that was really uncomfortable, but I felt like I've got to stay because if I 00:09:34.699 --> 00:09:38.110 don't stay, nobody's going to invite the next person. 00:09:38.310 --> 00:09:41.756 a dozen or so women, and it's not going to help if I turn around and leave 00:09:41.839 --> 00:09:44.379 the building when I see that kind of thing. Thankfully, 00:09:44.462 --> 00:09:47.861 I found a handful of people who were fun, and we sat down and had a chat. 00:09:47.944 --> 00:09:50.102 And I find if you make it a little bit smaller, 00:09:50.185 --> 00:09:52.035 if you're not trying to be out there, 00:09:52.470 --> 00:09:56.884 meeting everybody every five minutes or trying to boil the whole ocean in terms 00:09:56.967 --> 00:09:59.927 of building your network. Break it down to a little. 00:10:00.010 --> 00:10:04.619 of a smaller group and you'll I think, generate more meaningful relationships, 00:10:04.702 --> 00:10:09.010 and hopefully those relationships then beget more business and, you know, 00:10:09.100 --> 00:10:11.088 That's the whole purpose of the networking. 00:10:11.171 --> 00:10:14.074 It's fun to meet people that you enjoy and create friendships, 00:10:14.158 --> 00:10:15.977 and it's also really productive to... 00:10:16.060 --> 00:10:19.500 meet people who can be a part of your business going forward. 00:10:20.830 --> 00:10:26.680 Now, I think that's really smart to to look at it on a smaller basis to say, 00:10:26.763 --> 00:10:30.500 OK, I'm Not boiling ocean, like you said, try and look at it, 00:10:30.583 --> 00:10:34.683 find a small group and then develop relationships from that from there. 00:10:34.766 --> 00:10:37.276 I think that is really a great way to start. 00:10:37.359 --> 00:10:41.931 But I also think the way that you handle yourself throughout the business piece 00:10:42.014 --> 00:10:46.939 of it, having worked on a deal with you. I think that just speaks volumes and how you 00:10:47.022 --> 00:10:51.240 treat people and how you handle yourself. And I think that provides a lot 00:10:51.324 --> 00:10:54.800 of credibility and that people want to work with you again. 00:10:57.460 --> 00:11:00.828 about this topic that I think is important for people who might be starting out 00:11:00.912 --> 00:11:03.462 earlier in their career and looking for how they... 00:11:03.670 --> 00:11:08.527 get started on the networking. If there's an organization or an association 00:11:08.610 --> 00:11:10.850 that speaks to you or your role in 00:11:10.990 --> 00:11:15.930 business, try to volunteer to be more than just a member of it. So, 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:20.094 volunteer to organize one of the events, volunteer to be an officer in 00:11:20.178 --> 00:11:23.507 the organization, or do whatever you can because I think – 00:11:23.590 --> 00:11:27.352 Once you start to give a little extra rather than just being an attendee, 00:11:27.436 --> 00:11:31.650 you tend to get a lot more out of it and make more meaningful relationships out. 00:11:32.680 --> 00:11:35.936 Yeah, that's a really thoughtful way to approach it. I love that. 00:11:36.019 --> 00:11:38.710 The more you put into it is you'll get more out of it. 00:11:38.793 --> 00:11:41.433 And I think that's reflective of a lot of situations. 00:11:41.516 --> 00:11:44.258 But I think it's a great way to think about networking, 00:11:44.341 --> 00:11:48.040 especially if you're new into a city or you're new to a group of people. 00:11:48.340 --> 00:11:49.173 Yeah. 00:11:51.010 --> 00:11:56.923 Let's talk a little bit about overcoming self-doubt because sometimes we're our own 00:11:57.006 --> 00:12:02.558 biggest critics. How do you handle that noise in your head if you get negative 00:12:02.641 --> 00:12:06.470 thoughts? How do you push that down and move forward? 00:12:07.930 --> 00:12:12.840 That's an interesting question because I think that to some extent self-doubt is 00:12:12.923 --> 00:12:16.959 a good thing, right? You need to be somewhat measured. There are – 00:12:17.042 --> 00:12:21.515 we all know those people are out there, and they're often wrong but never 00:12:21.598 --> 00:12:25.487 in doubt. And I think some of those folks run headstrong into – 00:12:25.570 --> 00:12:31.162 mistakes and so a little bit of self-doubt is a very positive thing and trying 00:12:31.245 --> 00:12:34.810 to find that balance i think is really the key um 00:12:35.950 --> 00:12:39.087 I think one thing that when I was applying to business school, 00:12:39.171 --> 00:12:41.321 I had gone to public schools my whole life, 00:12:41.404 --> 00:12:45.269 and I felt like everybody else applying had been at boarding school and prep 00:12:45.352 --> 00:12:47.762 school and the Ivy League before they got there. 00:12:47.845 --> 00:12:50.775 And so I found that to be a period of a lot of self-doubt, 00:12:50.858 --> 00:12:54.878 walking into that classroom for the first time in a well-known business school. 00:12:54.962 --> 00:12:58.390 And I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm never going to be able to keep up. 00:12:58.570 --> 00:13:03.813 um But it works out. Sometimes you have to try a little harder and sometimes you have 00:13:03.896 --> 00:13:07.751 to put in a little bit more work and people might have had a different path 00:13:07.834 --> 00:13:11.057 than you. But certainly, I think it goes back in some ways to. 00:13:11.140 --> 00:13:14.266 Being willing to take a chance on yourself and giving it a try. 00:13:14.349 --> 00:13:17.100 I do think having some self-doubt is a positive thing. 00:13:17.830 --> 00:13:19.730 If it gets to the point where 00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:24.600 is incapacitating and it makes you unable to make decisions and make choices 00:13:24.684 --> 00:13:27.978 and move forward, then that would be a big challenge. 00:13:28.062 --> 00:13:32.695 And I think the self-doubt definitely comes around in times like we've had 00:13:32.778 --> 00:13:35.200 for the last few years where we think, 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:40.277 I thought we'd see a huge exodus of capital from the hotel space because there 00:13:40.361 --> 00:13:44.567 had always been this theoretical risk that revenue would go to zero. 00:13:44.650 --> 00:13:48.940 And that theory was proven out in many hotels. It's funny. And they. 00:13:49.030 --> 00:13:53.186 that creates a lot of doubt. But then when you look at it in a bigger picture of 00:13:53.270 --> 00:13:57.214 the dynamics of what was going on with return and yield and the fact that at 00:13:57.297 --> 00:14:00.530 that time we were in a very low interest rate environment and 00:14:00.640 --> 00:14:03.959 There was not much yield from other types of asset classes. 00:14:04.042 --> 00:14:08.514 We actually saw a pretty big inflow of capital into the hotel space immediately 00:14:08.598 --> 00:14:13.012 after things started opening back up. And that also helps because sometimes in 00:14:13.096 --> 00:14:15.460 our business, we tend to get very myopic. 00:14:15.550 --> 00:14:19.270 And we might get really down into the details of whether it's an individual deal 00:14:19.354 --> 00:14:23.776 or an individual contract. challenge and taking a step back and saying, OK, 00:14:23.859 --> 00:14:28.256 if I think about it more from a global flow of capital perspective, 00:14:28.339 --> 00:14:29.777 how appealing is this? 00:14:29.860 --> 00:14:34.771 relative to other opportunities. Instead of looking at it just from a whole sugar, 00:14:34.854 --> 00:14:39.764 this thing just went to zero. Yeah. And I think it was definitely a period of time 00:14:39.848 --> 00:14:44.819 that a lot of hospitality leaders leaned on one another because none of us had been 00:14:44.903 --> 00:14:47.864 through that experience of revenues going to zero. 00:14:47.948 --> 00:14:52.127 And one of the great things about the industry is that although we are 00:14:52.211 --> 00:14:56.900 competitive, I think it is an industry where people can also be collaborative 00:14:59.860 --> 00:15:02.579 I had a lot of very interesting conversations. 00:15:02.663 --> 00:15:06.418 I remember because I was working from home, as many of us were. 00:15:06.501 --> 00:15:11.536 So I'm in my home office and I was talking to people who had one hotel and two chief 00:15:11.619 --> 00:15:15.640 investment officers of the biggest REITs and everybody in between. 00:15:15.820 --> 00:15:19.132 Everybody just commiserating and checking in and how are you handling this? 00:15:19.216 --> 00:15:22.709 And what do you think about that? And it was that part of it felt good and felt 00:15:22.793 --> 00:15:23.626 positive. 00:15:23.980 --> 00:15:27.926 Yeah, I think leaning on each other really helped in that moment of time when we all 00:15:28.010 --> 00:15:30.960 had self-doubt of what was going to happen in the industry. 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:36.618 I wanted to talk a little bit about a common generalization, 00:15:36.702 --> 00:15:42.672 which is that women don't do a good job of advocating for ourselves. 00:15:42.755 --> 00:15:49.260 And that impacts women's ability to get promotions and to advance in areas 00:15:49.343 --> 00:15:51.480 that they would like to. 00:15:51.610 --> 00:15:56.913 Can you share perhaps a story about a time when you succeeded in advocating 00:15:56.996 --> 00:15:57.930 for yourself? 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.500 how you approached it, what steps you took. 00:16:01.870 --> 00:16:06.770 Sure. A long time ago, and I was very early in hotel investing. 00:16:07.660 --> 00:16:10.067 There was a situation where I... 00:16:10.150 --> 00:16:15.378 Came into a deal a little bit late, so I didn't have any built-in promote in 00:16:15.461 --> 00:16:16.294 the deal. 00:16:16.570 --> 00:16:21.587 But I worked on it from like the day after it was acquired to the day we sold it many 00:16:21.670 --> 00:16:24.730 years later and lots of ups and downs. And I think. 00:16:25.150 --> 00:16:29.418 Humbly, lots of value added in that time. And when we were looking to sell it, 00:16:29.502 --> 00:16:32.570 I basically went to the head of my firm and I said, I'm 00:16:34.090 --> 00:16:38.888 I know it doesn't say so in the contract, but I really think the right thing to do 00:16:38.971 --> 00:16:41.650 here is to give me some piece of the promote. 00:16:42.280 --> 00:16:47.145 And that did not go well. My conversation did not go well initially. 00:16:47.229 --> 00:16:50.940 And I was very disappointed. And I went back again. 00:16:51.220 --> 00:16:55.820 And I said, no, I really disagree with your conclusion. I think that's... 00:16:55.930 --> 00:17:00.741 wrong and I didn't threaten to quit because frankly I didn't have a plan and I 00:17:00.825 --> 00:17:03.879 didn't want to quit. I didn't want to quit my job. 00:17:03.962 --> 00:17:07.790 So I didn't have that big club in terms of leverage, but, um, 00:17:08.560 --> 00:17:12.242 I went back after the initial conversation was really hard and I was quite hurt 00:17:12.326 --> 00:17:14.769 by it. And I said, I just I really disagree with you. 00:17:14.852 --> 00:17:17.902 And I think that's wrong. And I would like you to reconsider. 00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:22.427 And. I'm happy to talk to 00:17:22.510 --> 00:17:27.830 Capital Partners, I'm happy to bring anybody to the table to share with you. 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:33.614 My value add what I did across this just in case maybe you're one step too far 00:17:33.698 --> 00:17:36.763 removed to really see how this all went down. 00:17:36.846 --> 00:17:40.261 Maybe I haven't made my case very well for myself, 00:17:40.344 --> 00:17:44.249 but I will bring you others who will support my argument. 00:17:44.333 --> 00:17:50.140 And I ended up doing that. All right, let me see what they have to say. And it was. 00:17:50.500 --> 00:17:55.019 I remember it probably took me a week to make the phone call to ask somebody 00:17:55.102 --> 00:17:59.560 to call my boss to ask him on my behalf because I was so uncomfortable with 00:17:59.644 --> 00:18:04.404 that ask. But I just could not sleep at night thinking that deal was going to go 00:18:04.488 --> 00:18:09.491 down and it was going to be of no benefit to me personally at all and everybody else 00:18:09.574 --> 00:18:14.275 was going to have this very nice outcome. So it was an uncomfortable situation, 00:18:14.358 --> 00:18:18.960 but I think the thing that I learned from it was going back the second time. 00:18:19.090 --> 00:18:25.230 felt better than taking the no the first time and letting it roll that way. 00:18:26.350 --> 00:18:29.065 That's so interesting. I think a lot of people, 00:18:29.148 --> 00:18:33.970 once they got the courage to go up and ask the first time if the answer was no... 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:39.249 They probably would not have thought to go back or go back and sit and think about 00:18:39.332 --> 00:18:43.845 what more can I bring to the table to bolster my position that I should be 00:18:43.928 --> 00:18:48.751 compensated additionally. So I love that you did that and that you went back in 00:18:48.834 --> 00:18:53.719 and that you came up with a plan of how to support further support your position 00:18:53.802 --> 00:18:57.280 that you deserved a piece of that deal when it was sold. 00:18:57.820 --> 00:18:58.653 Yep. 00:19:02.070 --> 00:19:08.236 One of the challenges that women leaders tend to face is this perception that you 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:13.328 can't be both competent and kind. For example, if you're too nice, 00:19:13.412 --> 00:19:19.424 you're not strong enough to be a leader. If you're a bit too strong as a woman, 00:19:19.507 --> 00:19:21.590 you can come off as strong. 00:19:22.540 --> 00:19:27.092 as not being friendly enough to be successful in developing networks. 00:19:27.175 --> 00:19:30.988 And so there is this idea of an assertiveness double bind. 00:19:31.072 --> 00:19:36.027 You need to be just assertive enough, but not too much. And as I mentioned, 00:19:36.110 --> 00:19:39.200 we've negotiated on deals together. How do you 00:19:39.340 --> 00:19:41.553 find that balance. How do you walk that tightrope? 00:19:41.637 --> 00:19:43.687 Because you do a really good job with it. 00:19:44.500 --> 00:19:48.196 That's nice of you to say. I've had people tell me that I'm very diplomatic. 00:19:48.280 --> 00:19:51.980 And when I hear that, I think maybe I'm on the too nice end of that scale. 00:19:52.390 --> 00:19:56.810 You're very firm, Heather. I can tell you that. You're not too nice. 00:20:00.020 --> 00:20:05.880 So I'm not sure that I have any secret sauce, to be honest with you on this. 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.409 I know that it is something that a lot of people struggle with, 00:20:09.492 --> 00:20:13.760 particularly a lot of women, because of that kind of stereotype, if you will. 00:20:15.800 --> 00:20:18.358 I'm not a particularly emotional person about work, 00:20:18.442 --> 00:20:22.399 quite emotional about my family and my daughter and my husband and those types 00:20:22.482 --> 00:20:25.417 of things. But I don't get really emotional about work. 00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:29.976 I get disappointed or excited or happy, but I'm not one to jump on a phone 00:20:30.060 --> 00:20:33.857 and scream and yell at people or cry or those types of things. 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:38.506 So I think naturally my range when it comes to work things is somewhere in 00:20:38.589 --> 00:20:39.357 the middle. 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:46.031 And hopefully that has helped me to not be perceived as too much of a wimp or far too 00:20:46.115 --> 00:20:46.897 assertive. 00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:52.977 But I do worry a little bit when I hear that diplomacy word that I'm leaning too 00:20:53.060 --> 00:20:53.357 soft. 00:20:53.440 --> 00:21:00.097 so maybe what happens is I hear that and I push a little harder to try make sure I 00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:00.837 don't get 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:05.620 pigeonholed down at the soft end of the spectrum yeah there is always that balance 00:21:05.703 --> 00:21:06.437 am I being too 00:21:06.520 --> 00:21:11.522 nice am I being too much and I think you do such a good job and I love the idea 00:21:11.606 --> 00:21:12.617 actually of being 00:21:12.700 --> 00:21:17.711 diplomatic and thinking about it in that way and I also love the way you often 00:21:17.794 --> 00:21:19.017 approach things with 00:21:19.100 --> 00:21:25.156 a win-win point of view and always very willing to listen to the other person's 00:21:25.239 --> 00:21:26.477 point of view and 00:21:26.560 --> 00:21:30.458 take that on in a really thoughtful way. Thank you. I appreciate that. 00:21:30.541 --> 00:21:31.937 One of my favorite stories 00:21:32.020 --> 00:21:35.015 when you mentioned win-win, I thought of, we owned a hotel that was on the ground 00:21:35.098 --> 00:21:39.493 lease with the city and we had a right under the lease to buy it out. 00:21:39.577 --> 00:21:43.097 And there was a prescribed approach to how that 00:21:43.180 --> 00:21:46.922 would be valued, right? So we go through that valuation process. 00:21:47.006 --> 00:21:48.477 We had our appraiser, they 00:21:48.560 --> 00:21:51.064 had theirs, and we had to get a third because they didn't agree. 00:21:51.148 --> 00:21:52.197 And the number came out very 00:21:52.280 --> 00:21:56.391 favorable to us in the end. So we had our attorneys draw out the documents. 00:21:56.474 --> 00:21:57.677 We sent it to the city, 00:21:57.760 --> 00:22:01.877 and I got a call from the mayor's office, and they said, she's not going to sign it. 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:04.023 I was like, what are you talking about? She's not going to sign it. 00:22:04.107 --> 00:22:05.017 I was like, okay, can I talk to 00:22:05.100 --> 00:22:07.657 her? And they're like, you can't talk to her unless you come in person in two 00:22:07.740 --> 00:22:08.417 weeks. So I was like, 00:22:08.500 --> 00:22:12.417 okay, I'll come in person in two weeks. So I go, and she says, 00:22:12.500 --> 00:22:14.417 there was a blank lot that sold 00:22:14.500 --> 00:22:19.886 nearby for X. So there's no way I can sell you this land for what the Supreme Court 00:22:19.969 --> 00:22:20.677 came back at 00:22:20.760 --> 00:22:25.435 because it political suicide I cannot have that in the press And I was like do you 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:30.136 disagree with the methodology Because the issue was our land was valued as if you 00:22:30.219 --> 00:22:34.547 built a high hotel on it So what the residual land value which is completely 00:22:34.630 --> 00:22:38.147 different than you have a blank slate piece of land over here 00:22:38.230 --> 00:22:41.547 And she said, yeah, but I can't explain that in a newspaper article. 00:22:41.630 --> 00:22:45.147 I'm like, okay, I get that. So I was like, oh, so we go away and we think about it. 00:22:45.230 --> 00:22:48.241 And this was one where we called in our capital partners, 00:22:48.324 --> 00:22:50.467 and we all had a big brainstorm about it. 00:22:50.550 --> 00:22:54.087 And that particular property was also attached to a convention center that 00:22:54.170 --> 00:22:57.870 the city owned, but the property that we owned managed for them for a fee. 00:22:58.410 --> 00:22:59.807 So we came up with this idea. 00:22:59.890 --> 00:23:03.479 We went back to them and said, hey, we can pay you a lot more for the land so 00:23:03.562 --> 00:23:05.562 that your headline number works for you. 00:23:06.210 --> 00:23:11.157 If you pay us a lot more for the annual service of managing the convention center, 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:16.270 because that's going to go into our P&L, and we're going to cap that when we exit. 00:23:16.550 --> 00:23:18.587 So we're going to make back what we pay you. 00:23:18.670 --> 00:23:21.252 I didn't tell it that whole part, but we're going to make, 00:23:21.336 --> 00:23:24.653 I'll tell you guys, we're going to make back what they pay us times a nice 00:23:24.736 --> 00:23:27.990 multiple. That was how we found a win-win in that situation. 00:23:28.170 --> 00:23:32.103 So the hotel ended up getting a much nicer fee stream on a long-term basis for 00:23:32.187 --> 00:23:36.670 the city. And in exchange, we could afford to pay the city more for the ground. 00:23:36.870 --> 00:23:40.228 And we got what we really wanted was to have a fee simple hotel, 00:23:40.312 --> 00:23:42.567 which is obviously great for the cap rate. 00:23:42.650 --> 00:23:44.087 It's your cap rate significantly. 00:23:44.170 --> 00:23:48.947 and a little bit better fee stream on the side that we could cap at that lower rate 00:23:49.030 --> 00:23:51.490 and made the whole thing make economic sense. 00:23:51.630 --> 00:23:54.230 And she was happy with it. We rewrote the agreement. 00:23:54.350 --> 00:23:56.590 She signed it and off we went. 00:23:57.450 --> 00:24:01.667 There are so many good things in that one story that you just shared 00:24:01.750 --> 00:24:07.370 in terms of being persistent, asking to speak with her, going in to meet with her, 00:24:07.850 --> 00:24:12.307 hearing her side of the story, and then bringing in other people to brainstorm 00:24:12.390 --> 00:24:18.355 and get ideas to find the win-win and looking at how they perceive value 00:24:18.438 --> 00:24:20.287 and ways that you could 00:24:20.370 --> 00:24:25.271 create value in a way that you could both come away with a great result for what you 00:24:25.355 --> 00:24:29.790 needed. So many great lessons in that one story. So thank you for sharing that. 00:24:31.610 --> 00:24:36.447 I wanted to spend a little bit of time on leadership. One of the things I've noticed 00:24:36.530 --> 00:24:40.130 is that women tend to have a bit of a different style than men. 00:24:40.470 --> 00:24:45.087 And a couple things that you did when you set up Tamarack, 00:24:45.170 --> 00:24:46.870 I thought were really interesting. 00:24:47.370 --> 00:24:49.687 One of them was that you invited the team members 00:24:49.770 --> 00:24:52.370 who were working with you to join as partners. 00:24:53.350 --> 00:24:58.313 And another thing I heard you speak about is trying to ensure that you more junior 00:24:58.396 --> 00:25:03.112 people who are doing a lot of hard work They usually the ones that are burning 00:25:03.196 --> 00:25:08.035 the midnight oil when a deal has to get done You really intentional about making 00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:10.497 sure that they appropriately compensated 00:25:10.580 --> 00:25:14.838 I just find this really highly collaborative, 00:25:14.922 --> 00:25:19.277 team-oriented focus is a strength that I see a 00:25:19.360 --> 00:25:24.761 lot in women leaders. What character or leadership style do you look for on 00:25:24.844 --> 00:25:26.077 your team for your 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:32.782 leaders in your company? Yeah, I think one of the things that drove me to co-found 00:25:32.866 --> 00:25:33.437 Tamarack 00:25:33.520 --> 00:25:39.221 was the idea that it was going to be hard to keep a team of highly motivated, 00:25:39.304 --> 00:25:39.897 excellent 00:25:39.980 --> 00:25:44.047 professionals together for an extended period of time unless we could figure out 00:25:44.130 --> 00:25:44.877 a structure that 00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:49.652 worked for them financially. And so that was one of the motivating factors, 00:25:49.736 --> 00:25:51.117 honestly, was how do we 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:55.125 keep the team together and keep people motivated and excited? 00:25:55.209 --> 00:25:57.557 Because that's hard to do over a long 00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:03.356 period of time. And I think it may be a female quality. I'm not entirely sure, 00:26:03.439 --> 00:26:04.397 but I can tell 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:10.020 you I was very uncomfortable with the idea of naming the company Turner Capital 00:26:10.103 --> 00:26:12.057 or HCT Capital or something like that. 00:26:12.140 --> 00:26:16.857 And I look around and honestly, most of my, or many of my colleagues and friends 00:26:16.940 --> 00:26:20.400 who are men have companies that they name after themselves. 00:26:20.740 --> 00:26:23.177 And I don't know, I couldn't do it. 00:26:23.260 --> 00:26:29.700 And I think that is somewhat of a symptom of a leadership style, if you will, 00:26:29.820 --> 00:26:33.657 in that I am much more comfortable in a team environment 00:26:33.740 --> 00:26:36.840 than I am in a pyramid type shape. 00:26:37.060 --> 00:26:38.880 We have a very flat organization. 00:26:39.300 --> 00:26:40.637 We all talk with each other 00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:44.177 all the time. It's not, you don't have to go up any particular channel 00:26:44.260 --> 00:26:45.120 of communication. 00:26:45.600 --> 00:26:50.660 In a lot of ways, I learned the opposite lesson when I was at Disney because it 00:26:50.743 --> 00:26:54.200 was such a huge organization. And if you got a certain title, 00:26:54.284 --> 00:26:57.277 you got a different type of stationery. And if you got 00:26:57.360 --> 00:27:00.480 the next title, you got a different chair in your office. 00:27:00.563 --> 00:27:02.897 Like it was really so big and so structured 00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:06.261 that it's laughable now, but it was true. And people were like, 00:27:06.345 --> 00:27:10.297 and you knew this was a way, it was like a little bit of subliminal messaging. 00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:14.377 This was also before email was as prevalent as it is now. 00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:17.077 If you got a memo from somebody, 00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:20.137 you knew what their title was based on their stationery. 00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:23.117 You didn't even have to try to dig or figure it out. 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:24.577 How senior is this person? 00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:29.221 As soon as the memo came into your we have paper inboxes and as soon as your memo 00:27:29.304 --> 00:27:33.751 came into the inbox you knew what their stationery was It was very hierarchical 00:27:33.834 --> 00:27:37.077 and very strict in that way And I recall when I first went 00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:40.777 to Merritt's Wolf, the first time I was doing hotel 00:27:40.860 --> 00:27:44.997 private equity, I said to the assistant in the office, I was like, so who 00:27:45.080 --> 00:27:47.390 does this? And she's like, I think you do. I was like, 00:27:47.473 --> 00:27:48.897 do I make a presentation to anyone 00:27:48.980 --> 00:27:52.857 to do this? She's like, I think you just decide. I was like, okay, good. Let me 00:27:52.940 --> 00:27:55.420 work on that. And so from that time forward, I was like, 00:27:55.504 --> 00:27:57.204 this is so interesting. Everybody, 00:27:57.460 --> 00:28:00.519 every level of the organization can just make decisions and move forward. 00:28:00.602 --> 00:28:01.337 And I think that is 00:28:01.420 --> 00:28:05.375 a leadership style that I appreciate much more than a hierarchical one. 00:28:05.458 --> 00:28:06.797 And I think giving people 00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:12.036 the opportunity to make sure that they get a lot of exposure to what we really do 00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:12.877 as opposed to 00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:17.990 just their silos is important in helping people develop as holistic real estate 00:28:18.074 --> 00:28:18.897 investors. And 00:28:18.980 --> 00:28:23.680 And I think it's good for our company, and I think it's good for their careers, too. 00:28:24.360 --> 00:28:26.777 Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, I love that story. 00:28:26.860 --> 00:28:30.180 And I love the story about Disney and how hierarchical it was. 00:28:30.460 --> 00:28:34.980 And I don't know if that was a sign of the times back then or if that was just 00:28:35.064 --> 00:28:36.480 the size of the company. 00:28:36.840 --> 00:28:40.928 I remember there was a moment in my career where I worked at a company where I 00:28:41.011 --> 00:28:45.152 was told that the men in the company would come in and count your ceiling tiles 00:28:45.236 --> 00:28:46.757 to see how important you were. 00:28:46.840 --> 00:28:48.897 And if you had more ceiling tiles than them. 00:28:48.980 --> 00:28:52.564 And that blew my mind. I didn't know that everything was a competition at 00:28:52.647 --> 00:28:57.240 that point. But I learned pretty fast. But it was a very different world in time. 00:28:57.940 --> 00:29:02.020 Yeah, that's funny. I guess they could tell the square footage of your office. 00:29:02.820 --> 00:29:05.980 That's right. Every time you got a promotion. 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:11.900 Exactly. Let's continue a little bit with inclusive cultures, 00:29:12.140 --> 00:29:17.956 because a topic that we've discussed is the importance of creating inclusive 00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:21.497 culture. so that diverse people can thrive. 00:29:21.580 --> 00:29:23.677 And diversity can be so many different things, right? 00:29:23.760 --> 00:29:25.860 It doesn't have to just be race or gender. 00:29:26.100 --> 00:29:28.600 It could be diversity of thought, background. 00:29:29.140 --> 00:29:31.990 There's lots of different ways that teams can be diverse. 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:38.640 And similar to how you've pushed your career in a really intentional way, 00:29:38.800 --> 00:29:43.604 you're also very intentional about giving women and underrepresented groups 00:29:43.688 --> 00:29:44.517 opportunities, 00:29:44.600 --> 00:29:49.257 all things being equal, that you're going to give them the opportunity. 00:29:49.340 --> 00:29:54.217 And you do things such as hosting a dinner before the Alice Conference for Women. 00:29:54.300 --> 00:29:58.200 What are some of the key things that you think that leaders or even managers 00:29:58.283 --> 00:30:02.200 of teams can do to create a more inclusive workplace. Yeah. 00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:08.707 Um, I do try to, if we are considering whether it's 00:30:08.790 --> 00:30:12.412 designers or lawyers or bankers or whatever it is, all things being equal, 00:30:12.496 --> 00:30:15.667 if there's a more diverse candidate and a less diverse candidate, 00:30:15.751 --> 00:30:19.573 I would rather do business with the more diverse candidate because I honestly, 00:30:19.657 --> 00:30:21.810 I think sometimes people, I think sometimes 00:30:22.320 --> 00:30:26.332 They try harder. They work harder. And if they're as qualified and as good as 00:30:26.415 --> 00:30:29.340 the less diverse candidate, I would like to be able to. 00:30:29.580 --> 00:30:32.325 saying that we help promote women, people of color, 00:30:32.408 --> 00:30:36.873 and that type of thing in our organization and do it with our dollars because when 00:30:36.956 --> 00:30:41.143 we're spending the kind of money that we spend on legal counsel, for example, 00:30:41.227 --> 00:30:43.473 we want to do it in a very thoughtful way. 00:30:43.556 --> 00:30:46.079 One place where I think we fall down, honestly, 00:30:46.162 --> 00:30:48.817 when I look across our portfolio is we don't have 00:30:48.900 --> 00:30:54.420 many women or diverse people as general managers of our hotels. 00:30:54.540 --> 00:30:56.240 And I actually think that the... 00:30:56.430 --> 00:31:01.119 The brands and the third-party managers actually do a pretty good job of promoting 00:31:01.202 --> 00:31:05.484 diverse people through their ranks, certainly better than on the investment 00:31:05.567 --> 00:31:08.918 side. In the private equity world and the investment world, 00:31:09.001 --> 00:31:13.225 there are very few women or people of color making the ultimate investment 00:31:13.308 --> 00:31:14.770 decisions. But, 00:31:15.270 --> 00:31:19.291 Somehow in our firm, we have it backwards. I'm not sure how that happens. 00:31:19.374 --> 00:31:23.114 We've got women on the investment side. And then at the hotel level, 00:31:23.198 --> 00:31:25.869 we have a little bit less diverse representation. 00:31:25.953 --> 00:31:30.536 So it's something that caught my eye. The last time we had a slate of GM candidates 00:31:30.620 --> 00:31:35.230 be presented to us by a brand. And I was like, I have a choice of three white men. 00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:38.071 Why do I have, why can't I get more choices? 00:31:38.154 --> 00:31:40.763 And it's hard when you're not the employer, 00:31:40.846 --> 00:31:44.080 but it is a question that I like to ask and push for. 00:31:44.163 --> 00:31:47.585 And on the investment side, I think it's very important. 00:31:47.669 --> 00:31:52.405 And whenever I meet particularly young women in their early in their careers, 00:31:52.489 --> 00:31:56.587 I try to encourage them stay in the investment lane. I think that. 00:31:56.670 --> 00:31:58.747 Asset management is a phenomenal business, 00:31:58.830 --> 00:32:02.430 and that's where I started and then moved over to the investment side. 00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:05.249 But if you are already on the investment side, 00:32:05.332 --> 00:32:08.200 don't step out because you think you're going to. 00:32:08.340 --> 00:32:12.808 peek out early or hit some kind of wall, stay in that space that might be a little 00:32:12.891 --> 00:32:15.500 bit harder, a little bit less well-represented. 00:32:16.140 --> 00:32:19.110 As long as you can, as long as you're comfortable, 00:32:19.194 --> 00:32:21.757 because I think it is important for people. 00:32:21.840 --> 00:32:25.899 women who are early in their career to feel like they have an opportunity to stay 00:32:25.982 --> 00:32:30.468 in that space where they have a chance to make the real investment decisions, 00:32:30.551 --> 00:32:33.769 which goes back to risk-taking that we were talking about earlier. 00:32:33.853 --> 00:32:36.421 It goes back to a lot of things that we talked about. 00:32:36.504 --> 00:32:38.672 You've got to be willing to stand up and say, 00:32:38.755 --> 00:32:42.824 I believe in this enough that we're going to invest X millions of dollars to do it. 00:32:42.907 --> 00:32:46.375 And I really hope we see a lot more women on that side of the business. 00:32:46.459 --> 00:32:49.560 And in the meantime, we'll work on the other side at our firm. 00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:54.415 I agree. I'd love to see more women. There were very few when I came up on 00:32:54.498 --> 00:32:55.498 the investment side, 00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:02.472 attorneys. The deal that we worked on together had a lot of women on it on 00:33:02.555 --> 00:33:04.380 the deal side, but also I think 00:33:04.800 --> 00:33:07.445 All the attorneys were women on that particular deal. 00:33:07.528 --> 00:33:11.440 And it was the one that I've done that was just very unique for that reason. 00:33:12.270 --> 00:33:15.465 It was one where you get on the phone and you can't, you know, 00:33:15.548 --> 00:33:19.694 a lot of times you can tell who's speaking because there's only one woman across 00:33:19.778 --> 00:33:22.179 the table. But before everybody did it on Zoom, 00:33:22.263 --> 00:33:25.034 where your name lights up or where your face is there, 00:33:25.118 --> 00:33:28.290 it was just a regular conference call. I wonder who that is. 00:33:30.250 --> 00:33:33.715 It's true. You had to really learn everybody's voices when it was all women 00:33:33.798 --> 00:33:34.698 on the phone call. 00:33:35.040 --> 00:33:40.582 One of our favorite questions at DEI Advisors is what advice would you give 00:33:40.665 --> 00:33:42.240 to your younger self? 00:33:42.360 --> 00:33:49.360 What advice do I give to my younger self? I would probably say keep trying new 00:33:49.683 --> 00:33:50.347 things. 00:33:50.430 --> 00:33:56.274 Don't be afraid to try new things. Because I think some of my more interesting turns 00:33:56.357 --> 00:34:01.778 in my career and in my life has been when I try really challenging new unusual 00:34:01.861 --> 00:34:05.941 things. And when I have stayed put or studied for too long, 00:34:06.025 --> 00:34:10.810 it starts to get a little dull and it starts to get a little bit less 00:34:10.894 --> 00:34:11.727 productive. 00:34:12.570 --> 00:34:15.037 When you get into too big of a comfort zone, 00:34:15.121 --> 00:34:19.095 it's not necessarily a good thing. So sometimes I hear people say, oh, 00:34:19.178 --> 00:34:22.830 I've been doing the same job for 30 years. And I think, oh, no. 00:34:23.010 --> 00:34:28.461 It can't be good for anybody. So I would advise my younger self, 00:34:28.545 --> 00:34:32.350 keep trying new things and try more of them. 00:34:33.810 --> 00:34:38.232 I think jumping out of a plane was maybe a good way to set that goal for your career. 00:34:38.316 --> 00:34:41.466 Heather, I could actually talk to you for a really long time. 00:34:41.549 --> 00:34:45.071 I always learn something when I talk with you and I really enjoy it. 00:34:45.154 --> 00:34:49.312 But we're coming to the end of our time. Could you share with our audience maybe 00:34:49.395 --> 00:34:53.552 one final piece of advice, keeping in mind that DEI Advisors' mission is focused 00:34:53.636 --> 00:34:57.369 around empowering personal success? What advice would you offer to women 00:34:57.452 --> 00:35:01.110 and underrepresented groups who are looking to advance their careers? 00:35:02.130 --> 00:35:08.051 I think one of my favorite pieces of advice is take as many negotiations 00:35:08.135 --> 00:35:10.470 classes as you can, because. 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:13.783 You are going to be, no matter what you do in this industry, 00:35:13.867 --> 00:35:17.770 you are going to be negotiating, whether it's for yourself or a sales contract 00:35:17.853 --> 00:35:22.447 for your hotel. or an acquisition contract, or... 00:35:22.530 --> 00:35:27.526 Buying out a piece of land from a city, trying to think about ways that you can 00:35:27.610 --> 00:35:32.413 become a better negotiator will help you in your personal career when you're 00:35:32.496 --> 00:35:37.364 negotiating your cut of the deal or your salary or your how many tiles are in 00:35:37.447 --> 00:35:41.929 your office. And will certainly help you to navigate the world of hotel 00:35:42.012 --> 00:35:45.870 transactions or hotel operations because they are important. 00:35:46.230 --> 00:35:50.466 negotiations happening constantly. And I think that's one of the things that we 00:35:50.550 --> 00:35:53.802 could all tune up a little bit. And while you're negotiating, 00:35:53.885 --> 00:35:57.330 try to do it in a way that you don't cut off any relationships. 00:35:57.870 --> 00:36:04.027 Don't go in for the... Don't go for the kill because you might win that one win. 00:36:04.110 --> 00:36:08.025 slice of the negotiation, but you will not set yourself up for future business 00:36:08.109 --> 00:36:11.716 with the person across the table if you don't do it in a productive way. 00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:15.920 And so learn to negotiate well and learn to negotiate well for all parties who are 00:36:16.004 --> 00:36:16.837 at the table. 00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:19.464 I love that. And to focus on the long game, 00:36:19.547 --> 00:36:22.310 because while you might become a really great negotiator, 00:36:22.393 --> 00:36:24.843 the long game is relationships and relationships. 00:36:25.140 --> 00:36:28.117 And people keep turning up in your career. So... 00:36:28.200 --> 00:36:32.296 again and again. So really wonderful advice. Thank you so much, Heather. 00:36:32.380 --> 00:36:37.140 I really appreciate your taking the time and sharing your wisdom with our viewers. 00:36:38.370 --> 00:36:39.203 Thank you, Ann. 00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:41.040 Yeah. 00:36:41.190 --> 00:36:45.985 And for our audience, if you've enjoyed this conversation with Heather Turner, 00:36:46.068 --> 00:36:49.737 I hope you will go to our website, which is DEIadvisors.org, 00:36:49.821 --> 00:36:52.510 for other interviews with industry leaders. 00:36:53.220 --> 00:36:54.570 Thank you. Thanks, Heather. 00:36:55.500 --> 00:36:56.333 Thank you.