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Hello and welcome to DEI Advisors. My name
is Lam Elliott on behalf of DEI Advisors,

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which is an Arizona nonprofit dedicated
to empowering personal success.

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And today I'm delighted to have
Heather Turner as our guest advisor.

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And Heather is the CEO and co-founder
of Tamarack Capital Partners,

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which is a privately held hospitality real
estate investment firm that currently owns

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and manages 11 full service hotels
and resorts. So welcome, Heather.

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Thank you. Thank you, Lynn. Thanks so much
for inviting me to join you. Absolutely.

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I've been really looking forward
to this interview for a while now.

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So happy to be here today. Now, I know you
have a very interesting career journey.

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When I looked at it, I realized
you started working in Kyoto.

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You've worked at Disney twice. You've
worked at private equity firms before you

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co-founded Tamarack.

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role. But could you share with us some
of the inflection points in your career

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and what were their particular factors
that contributed to your success?

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Sure. My first job out of college was with
the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs

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in Kyoto, Japan. And I think...

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One of the great things about that was it
was incredibly scary to go do and set me

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up to feel like just about any other
challenge is much more achievable

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and reasonable than taking
a job in a foreign language.

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When I was decent at Japanese, but I
wasn't at a place where I should have been

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negotiating government
contracts in Japanese.

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And that's what a big part of my job was.
And so I think starting out that way set

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me up to feel like, oh, you can do that.
You can run with anything.

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applying for a job that you're not
qualified for is something that men are

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much more likely to do than women.
But I think having applied for and gotten

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that as my very first job, that's a little
bit of part of my approach to things.

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Don't wait until you
feel 100% confident in

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that you can do the job,
kind of jump in and give it a try.

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And if someone will give you a shot, then
I think that's a really positive thing.

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After that, I went to work for the Walt
Disney Company for the first time,

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as you mentioned,
and then off to business school.

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and back to Disney. And similarly, when
I got into hotel real estate investing,

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it was with a firm called Merritt's Wolf.
And when I was being interviewed there,

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one of the founders said, you were good.

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negotiator because that's what we
do a lot of. And I was like, oh,

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I don't think so. And he said,
why not? And I was like,

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because I really only negotiate for the
Walt Disney Company and we have something

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nobody else has. So our leverage is...

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out of balance.
And that makes my job really easy.

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So if I had a fair playing field, I'm not
sure how good I would be. So once again,

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I knew I didn't necessarily have all
the skills I needed for that job, but

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applied for and was given the opportunity
and haven't really looked back.

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So I've been doing hotel real estate
investing for the last 22 years or so

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and really enjoying it. That's fantastic.
And I love what you talked about,

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which was that you jumped into something
even when you didn't know if you could do

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it. And so I love your
approach to challenges,

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which is what I wanted to talk about next.

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How do you approach challenges when
you come upon them? What's your mindset?

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What what do you do first?
How do you think about it? Yeah,

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I think we've had lots of challenges
in the hotel space in the last few years.

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I think about who else
in my organization, in the –

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kind of in the deal at large can be
of value in overcoming the challenge.

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And so how do we all –

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put our heads together
and figure something out together.

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And I think that kind of teamwork
approach, whether it is,

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tapping into a resource at one of the
brands or at one of our capital partners.

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We have the benefit of being
surrounded by a lot of very intelligent,

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professional people who
are pretty exceptional.

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And so we have the opportunity, I think,
to punch a little bit above our own weight

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in terms of

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pulling together groupthink and coming
out with good outcomes by doing so.

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That's great. Thank you. Thank you
for that. Along those lines, taking risks,

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you don't get to where you
are today without taking risks.

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And you've talked about some of them. Can
you share a little bit about an example

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of success in taking a risk and how you
prepare yourself mentally to take a chance

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on something?

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Sure. Let me think of some. I don't
want to talk about just a personal story

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and one that's a little bit
more business oriented. Um,

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When I was a senior in college,
my roommate and I decided to go skydiving.

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And I think it was, I think we were
actually probably invited by some other

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people. But the two of us said,
we're about to go apply for our first job,

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so why don't we do this?

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to reset our sense of risk. I was
fortunate I didn't face a lot of adversity

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growing up, and so this was something
that I felt like was a way for me to say,

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okay, even in a really risky
circumstance, I'm going to be fine.

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And so right before job
interviews, we went skydiving,

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which was a ton of fun and I think
also helps put things in perspective.

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Right. You're jumping out of a moving
aircraft with the L's and a parachute

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on your back and landing it fine.
And if you think about that,

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you're about to jump
into a new risk. I think.

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That kind of mindset is helpful.
Yeah, I've had someone describe that kind

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of thing as level two fun. It's the thing
that's fun when you look back on it,

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not while you're doing it in the moment.
That's a great way to describe it,

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level two fun. And I think in terms
of taking risks professionally, you know,

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striking out on our own and starting
Tamarai Capital Partners certainly felt

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like a big risk at the time. I think
we had no idea the pandemic was coming,

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so we didn't know how
big of a risk it was.

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But it was the type of thing that I
spent a lot of time thinking about.

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It was probably a year or so of planning
and preparation and probably –

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six to nine months of negotiating
my exit with my prior firm,

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because we did it in a very friendly way.

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And one of the ways that we try
to mitigate risk in our company,

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we raise capital on a deal-by-deal basis.
So we're what most people would call

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an operating partner. And we come
in with a small portion of the capital,

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and we're looking for somebody else
to put in the majority of the capital.

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And in exchange, we'll do
the vast majority of the hard work.

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And I think our biggest risk in spinning
out of an old firm and starting a new one

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was, how do you do that and not alienate
your capital partners who have kind

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of gotten you to where you are today?

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And what we did want to do
was leave those folks behind, say,

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we're going to go start a new firm.

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and you're going to be left with whoever's
left at the old firm while we take off

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on our new adventure. So good luck
on those deals that you did with us for

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the last five or ten years. So we
were able to structure something that

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was really –

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I think fairly unique in the industry and
quite productive for both sides in which

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we brought along all of our responsibility
for the deals that we've done for the last

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five or 10 years that we still own. So we
kept those capital partners best interest

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at heart and made sure that we were
continuing to asset manage and portfolio

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manage and execute on the dispositions
of those deals properly.

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while looking at new deals under our new
banner and our first three deals that we

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did at Samarack were with repeat capital
partners that we had done work with before

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at Dinak, and we tried it. Thank you.

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I love that you, the way you looked
at it and the way you set up your company,

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you're always looking for the win-win and
you were able to not only preserve those

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old relationships, but carry them forward.

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into your new company. And it flows
right into the next thing I wanted to talk

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about, which is about
developing your network.

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And we actually met negotiating
across the table from one another.

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And I definitely found you to be
always looking for the win-win,

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always really calm, always really
thoughtful about your approach and how

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to find a way forward for both
parties. And I know in terms

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uncomfortable. How have you developed
your network in a way that works for you

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and suits your personality?
Yeah, I don't play golf.

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So I don't do some of the more
traditional real estate networking events,

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and I recognize that. But I do really like
some of the smaller forum-type things like

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the AHLA Roundtable Hotel
Asset Managers Association.

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I was very involved in that organization
for many years, less so now, but...

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ULI, those types of groups where you
can get to know people when you're not in

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the middle So that when you
are in the middle of the deal,

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you have a little bit of foundation
to work with them on. I actually find,

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and this kind of goes to, we're
spending a lot of time analyzing things.

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whether large conferences and conventions
and things like that are going to

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come back and be quite as robust as they
always used to be. And personally,

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I find them to be very effective. So
NYU and Alice and those types of things.

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I find those to be great uses of time
because you get the opportunity to see

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lots of people in a short period of time.
But frankly, it's not always fun.

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Like networking is not always fabulous.
I went to an industry dinner one time.

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And I walked in a room of 200 or 300
people, and there were three women there.

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And that was really uncomfortable, but I
felt like I've got to stay because if I

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don't stay, nobody's going
to invite the next person.

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a dozen or so women, and it's not
going to help if I turn around and leave

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the building when I see
that kind of thing. Thankfully,

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I found a handful of people who were
fun, and we sat down and had a chat.

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And I find if you make
it a little bit smaller,

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if you're not trying to be out there,

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meeting everybody every five minutes
or trying to boil the whole ocean in terms

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of building your network.
Break it down to a little.

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of a smaller group and you'll I think,
generate more meaningful relationships,

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and hopefully those relationships
then beget more business and, you know,

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That's the whole purpose
of the networking.

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It's fun to meet people that you
enjoy and create friendships,

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and it's also really productive to...

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meet people who can be a part
of your business going forward.

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Now, I think that's really smart to to
look at it on a smaller basis to say,

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OK, I'm Not boiling ocean,
like you said, try and look at it,

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find a small group and then develop
relationships from that from there.

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I think that is really
a great way to start.

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But I also think the way that you handle
yourself throughout the business piece

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of it, having worked on a deal with you. I
think that just speaks volumes and how you

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treat people and how you handle yourself.
And I think that provides a lot

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of credibility and that people
want to work with you again.

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about this topic that I think is important
for people who might be starting out

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earlier in their career
and looking for how they...

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get started on the networking. If
there's an organization or an association

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that speaks to you or your role in

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business, try to volunteer to be
more than just a member of it. So,

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volunteer to organize one of the events,
volunteer to be an officer in

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the organization, or do whatever
you can because I think –

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Once you start to give a little extra
rather than just being an attendee,

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you tend to get a lot more out of it and
make more meaningful relationships out.

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Yeah, that's a really thoughtful
way to approach it. I love that.

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The more you put into it
is you'll get more out of it.

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And I think that's reflective
of a lot of situations.

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But I think it's a great way
to think about networking,

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especially if you're new into a city
or you're new to a group of people.

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Yeah.

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Let's talk a little bit about overcoming
self-doubt because sometimes we're our own

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biggest critics. How do you handle that
noise in your head if you get negative

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thoughts? How do you push
that down and move forward?

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That's an interesting question because
I think that to some extent self-doubt is

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a good thing, right? You need
to be somewhat measured. There are –

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we all know those people are out there,
and they're often wrong but never

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in doubt. And I think some
of those folks run headstrong into –

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mistakes and so a little bit of self-doubt
is a very positive thing and trying

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to find that balance i
think is really the key um

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I think one thing that when I
was applying to business school,

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I had gone to public
schools my whole life,

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and I felt like everybody else applying
had been at boarding school and prep

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school and the Ivy League
before they got there.

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And so I found that to be
a period of a lot of self-doubt,

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walking into that classroom for the first
time in a well-known business school.

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And I thought, oh, my gosh,
I'm never going to be able to keep up.

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um But it works out. Sometimes you have to
try a little harder and sometimes you have

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to put in a little bit more work
and people might have had a different path

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than you. But certainly,
I think it goes back in some ways to.

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Being willing to take a chance
on yourself and giving it a try.

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I do think having some
self-doubt is a positive thing.

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If it gets to the point where

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is incapacitating and it makes you
unable to make decisions and make choices

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and move forward,
then that would be a big challenge.

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And I think the self-doubt definitely
comes around in times like we've had

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for the last few years where we think,

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I thought we'd see a huge exodus of
capital from the hotel space because there

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had always been this theoretical
risk that revenue would go to zero.

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And that theory was proven out
in many hotels. It's funny. And they.

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that creates a lot of doubt. But then
when you look at it in a bigger picture of

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the dynamics of what was going on with
return and yield and the fact that at

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that time we were in a very low
interest rate environment and

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There was not much yield from
other types of asset classes.

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We actually saw a pretty big inflow of
capital into the hotel space immediately

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after things started opening back up.
And that also helps because sometimes in

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our business, we tend to get very myopic.

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And we might get really down into the
details of whether it's an individual deal

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or an individual contract. challenge
and taking a step back and saying, OK,

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if I think about it more from a
global flow of capital perspective,

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how appealing is this?

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relative to other opportunities. Instead
of looking at it just from a whole sugar,

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this thing just went to zero. Yeah. And I
think it was definitely a period of time

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that a lot of hospitality leaders leaned
on one another because none of us had been

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through that experience
of revenues going to zero.

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And one of the great things about
the industry is that although we are

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competitive, I think it is an industry
where people can also be collaborative

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I had a lot of very
interesting conversations.

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I remember because I was working
from home, as many of us were.

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So I'm in my home office and I was talking
to people who had one hotel and two chief

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investment officers of the biggest
REITs and everybody in between.

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Everybody just commiserating and checking
in and how are you handling this?

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And what do you think about that? And it
was that part of it felt good and felt

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positive.

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Yeah, I think leaning on each other really
helped in that moment of time when we all

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had self-doubt of what was going
to happen in the industry.

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I wanted to talk a little bit
about a common generalization,

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which is that women don't do a good
job of advocating for ourselves.

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And that impacts women's ability to get
promotions and to advance in areas

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00:15:49,343 --> 00:15:51,480
that they would like to.

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Can you share perhaps a story about
a time when you succeeded in advocating

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00:15:56,996 --> 00:15:57,930
for yourself?

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00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,500
how you approached it,
what steps you took.

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Sure. A long time ago, and I
was very early in hotel investing.

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There was a situation where I...

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Came into a deal a little bit late,
so I didn't have any built-in promote in

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00:16:15,461 --> 00:16:16,294
the deal.

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But I worked on it from like the day after
it was acquired to the day we sold it many

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00:16:21,670 --> 00:16:24,730
years later and lots of ups
and downs. And I think.

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Humbly, lots of value added in that time.
And when we were looking to sell it,

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I basically went to the head
of my firm and I said, I'm

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I know it doesn't say so in the contract,
but I really think the right thing to do

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here is to give me some
piece of the promote.

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00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:47,145
And that did not go well.
My conversation did not go well initially.

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And I was very disappointed.
And I went back again.

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And I said, no, I really disagree
with your conclusion. I think that's...

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wrong and I didn't threaten to quit
because frankly I didn't have a plan and I

254
00:17:00,825 --> 00:17:03,879
didn't want to quit.
I didn't want to quit my job.

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00:17:03,962 --> 00:17:07,790
So I didn't have that big club
in terms of leverage, but, um,

256
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I went back after the initial conversation
was really hard and I was quite hurt

257
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by it. And I said, I just
I really disagree with you.

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And I think that's wrong.
And I would like you to reconsider.

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00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,427
And. I'm happy to talk to

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00:17:22,510 --> 00:17:27,830
Capital Partners, I'm happy to bring
anybody to the table to share with you.

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00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:33,614
My value add what I did across this just
in case maybe you're one step too far

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00:17:33,698 --> 00:17:36,763
removed to really see
how this all went down.

263
00:17:36,846 --> 00:17:40,261
Maybe I haven't made
my case very well for myself,

264
00:17:40,344 --> 00:17:44,249
but I will bring you others
who will support my argument.

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00:17:44,333 --> 00:17:50,140
And I ended up doing that. All right, let
me see what they have to say. And it was.

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I remember it probably took me a week
to make the phone call to ask somebody

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00:17:55,102 --> 00:17:59,560
to call my boss to ask him on my behalf
because I was so uncomfortable with

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that ask. But I just could not sleep at
night thinking that deal was going to go

269
00:18:04,488 --> 00:18:09,491
down and it was going to be of no benefit
to me personally at all and everybody else

270
00:18:09,574 --> 00:18:14,275
was going to have this very nice outcome.
So it was an uncomfortable situation,

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but I think the thing that I learned
from it was going back the second time.

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felt better than taking the no the first
time and letting it roll that way.

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00:18:26,350 --> 00:18:29,065
That's so interesting.
I think a lot of people,

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once they got the courage to go up and ask
the first time if the answer was no...

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They probably would not have thought to go
back or go back and sit and think about

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00:18:39,332 --> 00:18:43,845
what more can I bring to the table
to bolster my position that I should be

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00:18:43,928 --> 00:18:48,751
compensated additionally. So I love that
you did that and that you went back in

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00:18:48,834 --> 00:18:53,719
and that you came up with a plan of how
to support further support your position

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that you deserved a piece
of that deal when it was sold.

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00:18:57,820 --> 00:18:58,653
Yep.

281
00:19:02,070 --> 00:19:08,236
One of the challenges that women leaders
tend to face is this perception that you

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00:19:08,319 --> 00:19:13,328
can't be both competent and kind.
For example, if you're too nice,

283
00:19:13,412 --> 00:19:19,424
you're not strong enough to be a leader.
If you're a bit too strong as a woman,

284
00:19:19,507 --> 00:19:21,590
you can come off as strong.

285
00:19:22,540 --> 00:19:27,092
as not being friendly enough to be
successful in developing networks.

286
00:19:27,175 --> 00:19:30,988
And so there is this idea
of an assertiveness double bind.

287
00:19:31,072 --> 00:19:36,027
You need to be just assertive enough,
but not too much. And as I mentioned,

288
00:19:36,110 --> 00:19:39,200
we've negotiated on deals
together. How do you

289
00:19:39,340 --> 00:19:41,553
find that balance.
How do you walk that tightrope?

290
00:19:41,637 --> 00:19:43,687
Because you do a really good job with it.

291
00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:48,196
That's nice of you to say. I've had
people tell me that I'm very diplomatic.

292
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,980
And when I hear that, I think maybe
I'm on the too nice end of that scale.

293
00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:56,810
You're very firm, Heather.
I can tell you that. You're not too nice.

294
00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:05,880
So I'm not sure that I have any secret
sauce, to be honest with you on this.

295
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,409
I know that it is something
that a lot of people struggle with,

296
00:20:09,492 --> 00:20:13,760
particularly a lot of women, because
of that kind of stereotype, if you will.

297
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,358
I'm not a particularly
emotional person about work,

298
00:20:18,442 --> 00:20:22,399
quite emotional about my family and my
daughter and my husband and those types

299
00:20:22,482 --> 00:20:25,417
of things. But I don't get
really emotional about work.

300
00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:29,976
I get disappointed or excited or happy,
but I'm not one to jump on a phone

301
00:20:30,060 --> 00:20:33,857
and scream and yell at people
or cry or those types of things.

302
00:20:33,940 --> 00:20:38,506
So I think naturally my range when it
comes to work things is somewhere in

303
00:20:38,589 --> 00:20:39,357
the middle.

304
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:46,031
And hopefully that has helped me to not be
perceived as too much of a wimp or far too

305
00:20:46,115 --> 00:20:46,897
assertive.

306
00:20:46,980 --> 00:20:52,977
But I do worry a little bit when I hear
that diplomacy word that I'm leaning too

307
00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:53,357
soft.

308
00:20:53,440 --> 00:21:00,097
so maybe what happens is I hear that and I
push a little harder to try make sure I

309
00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:00,837
don't get

310
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:05,620
pigeonholed down at the soft end of the
spectrum yeah there is always that balance

311
00:21:05,703 --> 00:21:06,437
am I being too

312
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:11,522
nice am I being too much and I think you
do such a good job and I love the idea

313
00:21:11,606 --> 00:21:12,617
actually of being

314
00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:17,711
diplomatic and thinking about it in that
way and I also love the way you often

315
00:21:17,794 --> 00:21:19,017
approach things with

316
00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:25,156
a win-win point of view and always very
willing to listen to the other person's

317
00:21:25,239 --> 00:21:26,477
point of view and

318
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,458
take that on in a really thoughtful way.
Thank you. I appreciate that.

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00:21:30,541 --> 00:21:31,937
One of my favorite stories

320
00:21:32,020 --> 00:21:35,015
when you mentioned win-win, I thought of,
we owned a hotel that was on the ground

321
00:21:35,098 --> 00:21:39,493
lease with the city and we had
a right under the lease to buy it out.

322
00:21:39,577 --> 00:21:43,097
And there was a prescribed
approach to how that

323
00:21:43,180 --> 00:21:46,922
would be valued, right?
So we go through that valuation process.

324
00:21:47,006 --> 00:21:48,477
We had our appraiser, they

325
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,064
had theirs, and we had to get
a third because they didn't agree.

326
00:21:51,148 --> 00:21:52,197
And the number came out very

327
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,391
favorable to us in the end. So we had
our attorneys draw out the documents.

328
00:21:56,474 --> 00:21:57,677
We sent it to the city,

329
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,877
and I got a call from the mayor's office,
and they said, she's not going to sign it.

330
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,023
I was like, what are you talking about?
She's not going to sign it.

331
00:22:04,107 --> 00:22:05,017
I was like, okay, can I talk to

332
00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:07,657
her? And they're like, you can't talk
to her unless you come in person in two

333
00:22:07,740 --> 00:22:08,417
weeks. So I was like,

334
00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:12,417
okay, I'll come in person in two weeks.
So I go, and she says,

335
00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:14,417
there was a blank lot that sold

336
00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:19,886
nearby for X. So there's no way I can sell
you this land for what the Supreme Court

337
00:22:19,969 --> 00:22:20,677
came back at

338
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,435
because it political suicide I cannot have
that in the press And I was like do you

339
00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:30,136
disagree with the methodology Because the
issue was our land was valued as if you

340
00:22:30,219 --> 00:22:34,547
built a high hotel on it So what the
residual land value which is completely

341
00:22:34,630 --> 00:22:38,147
different than you have a blank
slate piece of land over here

342
00:22:38,230 --> 00:22:41,547
And she said, yeah, but I can't
explain that in a newspaper article.

343
00:22:41,630 --> 00:22:45,147
I'm like, okay, I get that. So I was like,
oh, so we go away and we think about it.

344
00:22:45,230 --> 00:22:48,241
And this was one where we
called in our capital partners,

345
00:22:48,324 --> 00:22:50,467
and we all had a big brainstorm about it.

346
00:22:50,550 --> 00:22:54,087
And that particular property was also
attached to a convention center that

347
00:22:54,170 --> 00:22:57,870
the city owned, but the property
that we owned managed for them for a fee.

348
00:22:58,410 --> 00:22:59,807
So we came up with this idea.

349
00:22:59,890 --> 00:23:03,479
We went back to them and said, hey,
we can pay you a lot more for the land so

350
00:23:03,562 --> 00:23:05,562
that your headline number works for you.

351
00:23:06,210 --> 00:23:11,157
If you pay us a lot more for the annual
service of managing the convention center,

352
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:16,270
because that's going to go into our P&L,
and we're going to cap that when we exit.

353
00:23:16,550 --> 00:23:18,587
So we're going to make
back what we pay you.

354
00:23:18,670 --> 00:23:21,252
I didn't tell it that whole part,
but we're going to make,

355
00:23:21,336 --> 00:23:24,653
I'll tell you guys, we're going to make
back what they pay us times a nice

356
00:23:24,736 --> 00:23:27,990
multiple. That was how we found
a win-win in that situation.

357
00:23:28,170 --> 00:23:32,103
So the hotel ended up getting a much
nicer fee stream on a long-term basis for

358
00:23:32,187 --> 00:23:36,670
the city. And in exchange, we could afford
to pay the city more for the ground.

359
00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:40,228
And we got what we really wanted
was to have a fee simple hotel,

360
00:23:40,312 --> 00:23:42,567
which is obviously great for the cap rate.

361
00:23:42,650 --> 00:23:44,087
It's your cap rate significantly.

362
00:23:44,170 --> 00:23:48,947
and a little bit better fee stream on the
side that we could cap at that lower rate

363
00:23:49,030 --> 00:23:51,490
and made the whole thing
make economic sense.

364
00:23:51,630 --> 00:23:54,230
And she was happy with it.
We rewrote the agreement.

365
00:23:54,350 --> 00:23:56,590
She signed it and off we went.

366
00:23:57,450 --> 00:24:01,667
There are so many good things
in that one story that you just shared

367
00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:07,370
in terms of being persistent, asking to
speak with her, going in to meet with her,

368
00:24:07,850 --> 00:24:12,307
hearing her side of the story, and then
bringing in other people to brainstorm

369
00:24:12,390 --> 00:24:18,355
and get ideas to find the win-win
and looking at how they perceive value

370
00:24:18,438 --> 00:24:20,287
and ways that you could

371
00:24:20,370 --> 00:24:25,271
create value in a way that you could both
come away with a great result for what you

372
00:24:25,355 --> 00:24:29,790
needed. So many great lessons in that one
story. So thank you for sharing that.

373
00:24:31,610 --> 00:24:36,447
I wanted to spend a little bit of time on
leadership. One of the things I've noticed

374
00:24:36,530 --> 00:24:40,130
is that women tend to have a bit
of a different style than men.

375
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:45,087
And a couple things that you
did when you set up Tamarack,

376
00:24:45,170 --> 00:24:46,870
I thought were really interesting.

377
00:24:47,370 --> 00:24:49,687
One of them was that you
invited the team members

378
00:24:49,770 --> 00:24:52,370
who were working with you
to join as partners.

379
00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:58,313
And another thing I heard you speak about
is trying to ensure that you more junior

380
00:24:58,396 --> 00:25:03,112
people who are doing a lot of hard work
They usually the ones that are burning

381
00:25:03,196 --> 00:25:08,035
the midnight oil when a deal has to get
done You really intentional about making

382
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,497
sure that they appropriately compensated

383
00:25:10,580 --> 00:25:14,838
I just find this really
highly collaborative,

384
00:25:14,922 --> 00:25:19,277
team-oriented focus
is a strength that I see a

385
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:24,761
lot in women leaders. What character
or leadership style do you look for on

386
00:25:24,844 --> 00:25:26,077
your team for your

387
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:32,782
leaders in your company? Yeah, I think one
of the things that drove me to co-found

388
00:25:32,866 --> 00:25:33,437
Tamarack

389
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:39,221
was the idea that it was going to be
hard to keep a team of highly motivated,

390
00:25:39,304 --> 00:25:39,897
excellent

391
00:25:39,980 --> 00:25:44,047
professionals together for an extended
period of time unless we could figure out

392
00:25:44,130 --> 00:25:44,877
a structure that

393
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,652
worked for them financially. And so
that was one of the motivating factors,

394
00:25:49,736 --> 00:25:51,117
honestly, was how do we

395
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,125
keep the team together and keep
people motivated and excited?

396
00:25:55,209 --> 00:25:57,557
Because that's hard to do over a long

397
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:03,356
period of time. And I think it may be
a female quality. I'm not entirely sure,

398
00:26:03,439 --> 00:26:04,397
but I can tell

399
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:10,020
you I was very uncomfortable with the idea
of naming the company Turner Capital

400
00:26:10,103 --> 00:26:12,057
or HCT Capital or something like that.

401
00:26:12,140 --> 00:26:16,857
And I look around and honestly, most of
my, or many of my colleagues and friends

402
00:26:16,940 --> 00:26:20,400
who are men have companies
that they name after themselves.

403
00:26:20,740 --> 00:26:23,177
And I don't know, I couldn't do it.

404
00:26:23,260 --> 00:26:29,700
And I think that is somewhat of a symptom
of a leadership style, if you will,

405
00:26:29,820 --> 00:26:33,657
in that I am much more
comfortable in a team environment

406
00:26:33,740 --> 00:26:36,840
than I am in a pyramid type shape.

407
00:26:37,060 --> 00:26:38,880
We have a very flat organization.

408
00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:40,637
We all talk with each other

409
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,177
all the time. It's not, you don't
have to go up any particular channel

410
00:26:44,260 --> 00:26:45,120
of communication.

411
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,660
In a lot of ways, I learned the opposite
lesson when I was at Disney because it

412
00:26:50,743 --> 00:26:54,200
was such a huge organization.
And if you got a certain title,

413
00:26:54,284 --> 00:26:57,277
you got a different type
of stationery. And if you got

414
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,480
the next title, you got
a different chair in your office.

415
00:27:00,563 --> 00:27:02,897
Like it was really so
big and so structured

416
00:27:02,980 --> 00:27:06,261
that it's laughable now, but it
was true. And people were like,

417
00:27:06,345 --> 00:27:10,297
and you knew this was a way, it was like
a little bit of subliminal messaging.

418
00:27:10,380 --> 00:27:14,377
This was also before email
was as prevalent as it is now.

419
00:27:14,460 --> 00:27:17,077
If you got a memo from somebody,

420
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,137
you knew what their title
was based on their stationery.

421
00:27:20,220 --> 00:27:23,117
You didn't even have to try
to dig or figure it out.

422
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:24,577
How senior is this person?

423
00:27:24,660 --> 00:27:29,221
As soon as the memo came into your we have
paper inboxes and as soon as your memo

424
00:27:29,304 --> 00:27:33,751
came into the inbox you knew what their
stationery was It was very hierarchical

425
00:27:33,834 --> 00:27:37,077
and very strict in that way
And I recall when I first went

426
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,777
to Merritt's Wolf,
the first time I was doing hotel

427
00:27:40,860 --> 00:27:44,997
private equity, I said to the assistant
in the office, I was like, so who

428
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,390
does this? And she's like,
I think you do. I was like,

429
00:27:47,473 --> 00:27:48,897
do I make a presentation to anyone

430
00:27:48,980 --> 00:27:52,857
to do this? She's like, I think you just
decide. I was like, okay, good. Let me

431
00:27:52,940 --> 00:27:55,420
work on that.
And so from that time forward, I was like,

432
00:27:55,504 --> 00:27:57,204
this is so interesting. Everybody,

433
00:27:57,460 --> 00:28:00,519
every level of the organization can
just make decisions and move forward.

434
00:28:00,602 --> 00:28:01,337
And I think that is

435
00:28:01,420 --> 00:28:05,375
a leadership style that I appreciate
much more than a hierarchical one.

436
00:28:05,458 --> 00:28:06,797
And I think giving people

437
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:12,036
the opportunity to make sure that they
get a lot of exposure to what we really do

438
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:12,877
as opposed to

439
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,990
just their silos is important in helping
people develop as holistic real estate

440
00:28:18,074 --> 00:28:18,897
investors. And

441
00:28:18,980 --> 00:28:23,680
And I think it's good for our company, and
I think it's good for their careers, too.

442
00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:26,777
Yeah, that's incredible.
Yeah, I love that story.

443
00:28:26,860 --> 00:28:30,180
And I love the story about Disney
and how hierarchical it was.

444
00:28:30,460 --> 00:28:34,980
And I don't know if that was a sign
of the times back then or if that was just

445
00:28:35,064 --> 00:28:36,480
the size of the company.

446
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,928
I remember there was a moment in my career
where I worked at a company where I

447
00:28:41,011 --> 00:28:45,152
was told that the men in the company
would come in and count your ceiling tiles

448
00:28:45,236 --> 00:28:46,757
to see how important you were.

449
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,897
And if you had more
ceiling tiles than them.

450
00:28:48,980 --> 00:28:52,564
And that blew my mind. I didn't know
that everything was a competition at

451
00:28:52,647 --> 00:28:57,240
that point. But I learned pretty fast.
But it was a very different world in time.

452
00:28:57,940 --> 00:29:02,020
Yeah, that's funny. I guess they could
tell the square footage of your office.

453
00:29:02,820 --> 00:29:05,980
That's right.
Every time you got a promotion.

454
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,900
Exactly. Let's continue a little
bit with inclusive cultures,

455
00:29:12,140 --> 00:29:17,956
because a topic that we've discussed
is the importance of creating inclusive

456
00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:21,497
culture. so that diverse
people can thrive.

457
00:29:21,580 --> 00:29:23,677
And diversity can be so
many different things, right?

458
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,860
It doesn't have to just be race or gender.

459
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:28,600
It could be diversity
of thought, background.

460
00:29:29,140 --> 00:29:31,990
There's lots of different
ways that teams can be diverse.

461
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:38,640
And similar to how you've pushed
your career in a really intentional way,

462
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,604
you're also very intentional about
giving women and underrepresented groups

463
00:29:43,688 --> 00:29:44,517
opportunities,

464
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,257
all things being equal, that you're
going to give them the opportunity.

465
00:29:49,340 --> 00:29:54,217
And you do things such as hosting a dinner
before the Alice Conference for Women.

466
00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:58,200
What are some of the key things that you
think that leaders or even managers

467
00:29:58,283 --> 00:30:02,200
of teams can do to create
a more inclusive workplace. Yeah.

468
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,707
Um, I do try to, if we are
considering whether it's

469
00:30:08,790 --> 00:30:12,412
designers or lawyers or bankers
or whatever it is, all things being equal,

470
00:30:12,496 --> 00:30:15,667
if there's a more diverse candidate
and a less diverse candidate,

471
00:30:15,751 --> 00:30:19,573
I would rather do business with the more
diverse candidate because I honestly,

472
00:30:19,657 --> 00:30:21,810
I think sometimes people,
I think sometimes

473
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,332
They try harder. They work harder.
And if they're as qualified and as good as

474
00:30:26,415 --> 00:30:29,340
the less diverse candidate,
I would like to be able to.

475
00:30:29,580 --> 00:30:32,325
saying that we help promote
women, people of color,

476
00:30:32,408 --> 00:30:36,873
and that type of thing in our organization
and do it with our dollars because when

477
00:30:36,956 --> 00:30:41,143
we're spending the kind of money that we
spend on legal counsel, for example,

478
00:30:41,227 --> 00:30:43,473
we want to do it in a very thoughtful way.

479
00:30:43,556 --> 00:30:46,079
One place where I think
we fall down, honestly,

480
00:30:46,162 --> 00:30:48,817
when I look across
our portfolio is we don't have

481
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:54,420
many women or diverse people
as general managers of our hotels.

482
00:30:54,540 --> 00:30:56,240
And I actually think that the...

483
00:30:56,430 --> 00:31:01,119
The brands and the third-party managers
actually do a pretty good job of promoting

484
00:31:01,202 --> 00:31:05,484
diverse people through their ranks,
certainly better than on the investment

485
00:31:05,567 --> 00:31:08,918
side. In the private equity
world and the investment world,

486
00:31:09,001 --> 00:31:13,225
there are very few women or people
of color making the ultimate investment

487
00:31:13,308 --> 00:31:14,770
decisions. But,

488
00:31:15,270 --> 00:31:19,291
Somehow in our firm, we have it backwards.
I'm not sure how that happens.

489
00:31:19,374 --> 00:31:23,114
We've got women on the investment side.
And then at the hotel level,

490
00:31:23,198 --> 00:31:25,869
we have a little bit less
diverse representation.

491
00:31:25,953 --> 00:31:30,536
So it's something that caught my eye. The
last time we had a slate of GM candidates

492
00:31:30,620 --> 00:31:35,230
be presented to us by a brand. And I was
like, I have a choice of three white men.

493
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,071
Why do I have,
why can't I get more choices?

494
00:31:38,154 --> 00:31:40,763
And it's hard when
you're not the employer,

495
00:31:40,846 --> 00:31:44,080
but it is a question that I
like to ask and push for.

496
00:31:44,163 --> 00:31:47,585
And on the investment side,
I think it's very important.

497
00:31:47,669 --> 00:31:52,405
And whenever I meet particularly young
women in their early in their careers,

498
00:31:52,489 --> 00:31:56,587
I try to encourage them stay
in the investment lane. I think that.

499
00:31:56,670 --> 00:31:58,747
Asset management is a phenomenal business,

500
00:31:58,830 --> 00:32:02,430
and that's where I started and then
moved over to the investment side.

501
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,249
But if you are already
on the investment side,

502
00:32:05,332 --> 00:32:08,200
don't step out because
you think you're going to.

503
00:32:08,340 --> 00:32:12,808
peek out early or hit some kind of wall,
stay in that space that might be a little

504
00:32:12,891 --> 00:32:15,500
bit harder, a little bit
less well-represented.

505
00:32:16,140 --> 00:32:19,110
As long as you can,
as long as you're comfortable,

506
00:32:19,194 --> 00:32:21,757
because I think it
is important for people.

507
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,899
women who are early in their career to
feel like they have an opportunity to stay

508
00:32:25,982 --> 00:32:30,468
in that space where they have a chance
to make the real investment decisions,

509
00:32:30,551 --> 00:32:33,769
which goes back to risk-taking
that we were talking about earlier.

510
00:32:33,853 --> 00:32:36,421
It goes back to a lot
of things that we talked about.

511
00:32:36,504 --> 00:32:38,672
You've got to be willing
to stand up and say,

512
00:32:38,755 --> 00:32:42,824
I believe in this enough that we're going
to invest X millions of dollars to do it.

513
00:32:42,907 --> 00:32:46,375
And I really hope we see a lot more
women on that side of the business.

514
00:32:46,459 --> 00:32:49,560
And in the meantime, we'll work
on the other side at our firm.

515
00:32:50,940 --> 00:32:54,415
I agree. I'd love to see more women.
There were very few when I came up on

516
00:32:54,498 --> 00:32:55,498
the investment side,

517
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,472
attorneys. The deal that we worked
on together had a lot of women on it on

518
00:33:02,555 --> 00:33:04,380
the deal side, but also I think

519
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,445
All the attorneys were women
on that particular deal.

520
00:33:07,528 --> 00:33:11,440
And it was the one that I've done
that was just very unique for that reason.

521
00:33:12,270 --> 00:33:15,465
It was one where you get on the
phone and you can't, you know,

522
00:33:15,548 --> 00:33:19,694
a lot of times you can tell who's speaking
because there's only one woman across

523
00:33:19,778 --> 00:33:22,179
the table. But before
everybody did it on Zoom,

524
00:33:22,263 --> 00:33:25,034
where your name lights up
or where your face is there,

525
00:33:25,118 --> 00:33:28,290
it was just a regular conference call.
I wonder who that is.

526
00:33:30,250 --> 00:33:33,715
It's true. You had to really learn
everybody's voices when it was all women

527
00:33:33,798 --> 00:33:34,698
on the phone call.

528
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:40,582
One of our favorite questions at DEI
Advisors is what advice would you give

529
00:33:40,665 --> 00:33:42,240
to your younger self?

530
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:49,360
What advice do I give to my younger self?
I would probably say keep trying new

531
00:33:49,683 --> 00:33:50,347
things.

532
00:33:50,430 --> 00:33:56,274
Don't be afraid to try new things. Because
I think some of my more interesting turns

533
00:33:56,357 --> 00:34:01,778
in my career and in my life has been
when I try really challenging new unusual

534
00:34:01,861 --> 00:34:05,941
things. And when I have stayed
put or studied for too long,

535
00:34:06,025 --> 00:34:10,810
it starts to get a little dull
and it starts to get a little bit less

536
00:34:10,894 --> 00:34:11,727
productive.

537
00:34:12,570 --> 00:34:15,037
When you get into too
big of a comfort zone,

538
00:34:15,121 --> 00:34:19,095
it's not necessarily a good thing.
So sometimes I hear people say, oh,

539
00:34:19,178 --> 00:34:22,830
I've been doing the same job
for 30 years. And I think, oh, no.

540
00:34:23,010 --> 00:34:28,461
It can't be good for anybody.
So I would advise my younger self,

541
00:34:28,545 --> 00:34:32,350
keep trying new things
and try more of them.

542
00:34:33,810 --> 00:34:38,232
I think jumping out of a plane was maybe a
good way to set that goal for your career.

543
00:34:38,316 --> 00:34:41,466
Heather, I could actually talk
to you for a really long time.

544
00:34:41,549 --> 00:34:45,071
I always learn something when I
talk with you and I really enjoy it.

545
00:34:45,154 --> 00:34:49,312
But we're coming to the end of our time.
Could you share with our audience maybe

546
00:34:49,395 --> 00:34:53,552
one final piece of advice, keeping in mind
that DEI Advisors' mission is focused

547
00:34:53,636 --> 00:34:57,369
around empowering personal success?
What advice would you offer to women

548
00:34:57,452 --> 00:35:01,110
and underrepresented groups who are
looking to advance their careers?

549
00:35:02,130 --> 00:35:08,051
I think one of my favorite pieces
of advice is take as many negotiations

550
00:35:08,135 --> 00:35:10,470
classes as you can, because.

551
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,783
You are going to be, no matter
what you do in this industry,

552
00:35:13,867 --> 00:35:17,770
you are going to be negotiating, whether
it's for yourself or a sales contract

553
00:35:17,853 --> 00:35:22,447
for your hotel.
or an acquisition contract, or...

554
00:35:22,530 --> 00:35:27,526
Buying out a piece of land from a city,
trying to think about ways that you can

555
00:35:27,610 --> 00:35:32,413
become a better negotiator will help
you in your personal career when you're

556
00:35:32,496 --> 00:35:37,364
negotiating your cut of the deal or
your salary or your how many tiles are in

557
00:35:37,447 --> 00:35:41,929
your office. And will certainly help
you to navigate the world of hotel

558
00:35:42,012 --> 00:35:45,870
transactions or hotel operations
because they are important.

559
00:35:46,230 --> 00:35:50,466
negotiations happening constantly. And I
think that's one of the things that we

560
00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:53,802
could all tune up a little bit.
And while you're negotiating,

561
00:35:53,885 --> 00:35:57,330
try to do it in a way that you
don't cut off any relationships.

562
00:35:57,870 --> 00:36:04,027
Don't go in for the... Don't go for the
kill because you might win that one win.

563
00:36:04,110 --> 00:36:08,025
slice of the negotiation, but you will
not set yourself up for future business

564
00:36:08,109 --> 00:36:11,716
with the person across the table if
you don't do it in a productive way.

565
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,920
And so learn to negotiate well and learn
to negotiate well for all parties who are

566
00:36:16,004 --> 00:36:16,837
at the table.

567
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,464
I love that.
And to focus on the long game,

568
00:36:19,547 --> 00:36:22,310
because while you might become
a really great negotiator,

569
00:36:22,393 --> 00:36:24,843
the long game is relationships
and relationships.

570
00:36:25,140 --> 00:36:28,117
And people keep turning
up in your career. So...

571
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,296
again and again. So really wonderful
advice. Thank you so much, Heather.

572
00:36:32,380 --> 00:36:37,140
I really appreciate your taking the time
and sharing your wisdom with our viewers.

573
00:36:38,370 --> 00:36:39,203
Thank you, Ann.

574
00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:41,040
Yeah.

575
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:45,985
And for our audience, if you've enjoyed
this conversation with Heather Turner,

576
00:36:46,068 --> 00:36:49,737
I hope you will go to our website,
which is DEIadvisors.org,

577
00:36:49,821 --> 00:36:52,510
for other interviews
with industry leaders.

578
00:36:53,220 --> 00:36:54,570
Thank you. Thanks, Heather.

579
00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:56,333
Thank you.