WEBVTT 00:00:01.550 --> 00:00:05.865 The collective of humanity can't change at the collective level. 00:00:05.948 --> 00:00:10.690 It has to be individual souls that then affect the collective change. 00:00:12.990 --> 00:00:15.690 Welcome to Point of Relation with Thomas Hubel, 00:00:15.773 --> 00:00:20.250 a podcast that illuminates the path to collective healing at the intersection 00:00:20.334 --> 00:00:23.650 of science and mysticism. This is the Point of Relation. 00:00:30.030 --> 00:00:30.863 you 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:35.490 Michael Mead, DHL, is a renowned storyteller, author, 00:00:35.573 --> 00:00:39.406 and scholar of mythology, anthropology, and psychology. 00:00:39.489 --> 00:00:43.891 He combines hypnotic storytelling, street-savvy perceptiveness, 00:00:43.974 --> 00:00:48.946 and spellbinding interpretations of ancient myths with a deep knowledge 00:00:49.029 --> 00:00:50.880 of cross-cultural rituals. 00:01:01.800 --> 00:01:03.000 diverse peoples. 00:01:04.950 --> 00:01:10.118 Welcome, Michael. I'm so happy to have you here again with us and your wisdom. 00:01:10.201 --> 00:01:12.490 Great to be back with you, Thomas. 00:01:13.020 --> 00:01:14.400 Mm-hmm. 00:01:14.850 --> 00:01:19.955 I remember our last conversation for our Collective Trauma Summit, 00:01:20.039 --> 00:01:22.777 and I still remember some of the... 00:01:22.860 --> 00:01:27.245 Some of the points we touched on, which are partly similar to what I think it 00:01:27.328 --> 00:01:30.520 would be great to cover this seminar, partly different. 00:01:30.870 --> 00:01:33.190 So how do we go through this time? 00:01:33.510 --> 00:01:38.620 on the planet and this time in our societies we all know that there is a lot 00:01:38.703 --> 00:01:43.813 of uncertainty there are a lot of change processes happening and what what's 00:01:43.897 --> 00:01:49.348 the courage that we need and so we maybe we'll start with your life as an example 00:01:49.432 --> 00:01:54.747 and then we look a bit at the overarching picture and what what you see we need 00:01:54.830 --> 00:01:59.750 to learn in order to be prepared to go through this time in a better way 00:02:02.940 --> 00:02:08.698 Let's start with You, like your soul and you seem to be on your path. 00:02:08.782 --> 00:02:14.958 You did most probably many things in your life that your soul's calling for and you 00:02:15.041 --> 00:02:21.142 embody those. And so maybe you can share a little bit about your own path and also 00:02:21.225 --> 00:02:23.887 about the courage that it needed to. 00:02:23.970 --> 00:02:28.197 maybe in your life at certain times to make decisions that weren't so easy, 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.703 but helped you to unfold your soul's potential in this world. 00:02:31.786 --> 00:02:33.970 Whatever comes up when I ask you this. 00:02:35.700 --> 00:02:40.840 Well, it's a good question. And of course, Courage comes from la cour, the heart. 00:02:41.610 --> 00:02:48.451 So it's really about paths of the heart. And can we find the path our heart would 00:02:48.534 --> 00:02:54.862 have us taken away? And part of what happens to me every time war occurs on 00:02:54.945 --> 00:03:00.333 a big scale is I have my own PTSD. Because when I was young, 19, 00:03:00.416 --> 00:03:03.750 I got drafted to go to the Vietnam War. 00:03:04.170 --> 00:03:09.652 And and I didn't believe in that war. And but I was 19 and I wasn't sure. 00:03:09.735 --> 00:03:15.847 And my family expected me to go. Everyone in my neighborhood thought I should go. 00:03:15.930 --> 00:03:21.259 But I didn't feel that I could. So I sent a letter back to the draft board saying, 00:03:21.342 --> 00:03:25.170 you know, this is not a declared war. It's not a wise war. 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.724 It's it's a damaging war. It makes no sense. And so I'm not going to come. 00:03:29.807 --> 00:03:32.160 But if you have another war, let me know. 00:03:32.430 --> 00:03:36.444 And I thought I was being very courteous. And well, the next thing, 00:03:36.527 --> 00:03:41.458 the people are knocking on the door and saying you either go now down to the draft 00:03:41.541 --> 00:03:43.070 center or you go to jail. 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:48.584 So I went to the draft center and and and so there's there's a question of courage 00:03:48.667 --> 00:03:52.259 there. Can I take this stand and keep this stand? You know, 00:03:52.342 --> 00:03:55.560 even though everyone around me doesn't agree with me, 00:03:55.643 --> 00:03:59.234 something is my soul and my soul is saying I can't do this. 00:03:59.318 --> 00:04:01.560 This would be a loss of soul for me. 00:04:02.040 --> 00:04:06.945 So they offer me to be a I forget what they call it, but a non, you know, 00:04:07.028 --> 00:04:10.567 non combatant person. I'm against it. I'm a you know, 00:04:10.650 --> 00:04:15.160 and I can sign this thing and they'll let me do it. But I read it. 00:04:15.420 --> 00:04:18.984 And I can't agree with it. It says that I've never been violent. 00:04:19.068 --> 00:04:22.917 I grew up in a rough neighborhood. People know that I can be violent. 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:26.622 If my family gets attacked, I will be violent. I can't sign that. 00:04:26.705 --> 00:04:30.725 And there's a bunch of other stuff in there I can't sign. So I said, no, 00:04:30.809 --> 00:04:33.575 I can't be a conscientious objector in your terms. 00:04:33.658 --> 00:04:37.420 My conscience is objecting, but not the way you want me to say it. 00:04:37.890 --> 00:04:42.997 So now I'm deeper into it. Anyway, because the story goes on and on. 00:04:43.080 --> 00:04:46.147 And I'm trying to hold my ground and then I actually don't hold it. 00:04:46.230 --> 00:04:51.304 because they're back to the idea it's jail or go into the army. 00:04:51.388 --> 00:04:54.937 And I talked to my uncles and my father and, 00:04:55.020 --> 00:04:59.876 My mother really disappoints me. I tell her what I feel, and she says, 00:04:59.959 --> 00:05:01.300 our sons always go. 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:06.752 And I said, wow, that's not even specific. You're not even looking at me. 00:05:06.835 --> 00:05:08.280 So I wind up going in. 00:05:08.610 --> 00:05:12.438 And I go through basic training. I go through jungle training. 00:05:12.521 --> 00:05:17.422 And all of the time I'm thinking, God, it's not just that I won't kill someone, 00:05:17.505 --> 00:05:21.396 that I might die. It's that I might kill someone for no reason. 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:24.551 And that feels to me like a fate worse than death. 00:05:24.634 --> 00:05:28.230 And I'm still trying to figure it out when they have a... 00:05:28.320 --> 00:05:32.989 They bring the whole company together and they're given a kind of a teaching on what 00:05:33.072 --> 00:05:36.666 it's going to be like when you go into the jungle and everything. 00:05:36.749 --> 00:05:41.078 And the officer who's giving it says, and so if there's a hill and you're told 00:05:41.162 --> 00:05:44.160 to take that hill, you do that. Soldier, you do that. 00:05:44.670 --> 00:05:47.950 And I just raised my hand. I said, I might not do that. 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.900 You know, if you tell me to go somewhere simply to die, I won't do it. 00:05:52.380 --> 00:05:53.840 And they go ballistic. 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:58.164 They just, you know, how can you do that in front of everybody? 00:05:58.247 --> 00:06:00.400 And so now I'm in jail. I'm in jail. 00:06:00.930 --> 00:06:05.730 And then in the military prison, I was a bad prisoner. 00:06:05.940 --> 00:06:08.551 Because now I realize I cannot follow these orders. 00:06:08.634 --> 00:06:12.672 It goes against my heart and my soul. This is now settled. It's a little late, 00:06:12.755 --> 00:06:16.792 but it's settled. And so then I'm a bad prisoner because I won't follow orders 00:06:16.876 --> 00:06:19.200 now. So they put me in solitary confinement. 00:06:19.710 --> 00:06:23.630 And so I am in solitary confinement for months. 00:06:24.270 --> 00:06:28.803 And in the course of that, I realized this is this is it. This is complete. 00:06:28.886 --> 00:06:33.810 Take a stance or don't take a stance. So I stop eating. I go on a hunger strike. 00:06:34.110 --> 00:06:41.110 And I went into that military situation about 155 pounds. I came out 87 pounds. 00:06:42.810 --> 00:06:44.270 I was skin and mold. 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.890 But I got out. They actually was Robert Kennedy, 00:06:47.973 --> 00:06:51.111 who was at the time the state senator from New York. 00:06:51.194 --> 00:06:54.703 Someone got his attention and he called in there and said, 00:06:54.787 --> 00:06:59.411 if you don't release him in 48 hours, I'm coming down to get him out myself. 00:06:59.494 --> 00:07:04.087 So he got me out of there. I never knew what happened or how that occurred. 00:07:04.170 --> 00:07:10.345 but The courage part was for me is I had to take that stance and I had to keep 00:07:10.428 --> 00:07:15.046 that stance. And I almost died several times from the starvation part of it. 00:07:15.130 --> 00:07:19.562 And that almost didn't matter. Once I connected to my heart in that sense 00:07:19.646 --> 00:07:24.449 of courage from the heart, that was it. I was committed totally and completely. 00:07:24.533 --> 00:07:27.295 And so I come out of there a different person. 00:07:27.379 --> 00:07:31.688 I came out of there understanding something about courage and something 00:07:31.771 --> 00:07:33.070 about life and death. 00:07:35.850 --> 00:07:39.260 If. And I'll say one more thing about it having to do with paths. 00:07:40.110 --> 00:07:44.457 So I had always been interested in mythology since I was like 13 years old. 00:07:44.541 --> 00:07:47.942 And in there, I'm in solitary. I have no writing equipment. 00:07:48.026 --> 00:07:52.196 I have no books, nothing, just me, concrete floor, metal bars and so on. 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:55.410 And so, you know, you can go a little crazy in there. 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:00.000 What happens is I start having visitors. 00:08:00.300 --> 00:08:03.732 And they're not actual visitors. No one else can see them. 00:08:03.815 --> 00:08:08.459 But they're characters from myth like Odysseus and all the coming like to help 00:08:08.542 --> 00:08:10.360 me out and to give me courage. 00:08:10.620 --> 00:08:13.364 And so then I remember the day I had to say, 00:08:13.447 --> 00:08:16.512 I'm either losing my mind or I'm finding my mind. 00:08:16.596 --> 00:08:20.625 And I realized this is my mind. This is my path. This is my way. 00:08:20.708 --> 00:08:25.958 So I come out of there knowing that I was deeply connected with myth and that I had 00:08:26.041 --> 00:08:27.840 to realize that my own mind. 00:08:27.930 --> 00:08:32.737 Something in me was intense and could not be rejected, dismissed, 00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:38.831 neglected or repressed. And of course, I come out of there with all kinds of PTSD 00:08:38.914 --> 00:08:44.030 and I didn't fit into the culture and I was a lost soul for a while. 00:08:44.490 --> 00:08:47.580 But that... But I think I found courage. 00:08:47.970 --> 00:08:51.760 And I had the idea of... I won't fight in that war. 00:08:52.260 --> 00:08:57.072 But I didn't have the courage to take the stand until I found myself in really fully 00:08:57.155 --> 00:08:57.989 in there. 00:08:58.320 --> 00:08:59.107 Amen. 00:08:59.190 --> 00:09:04.075 And so I've been on in a sense, I've been on the path of mythology ever since on it, 00:09:04.158 --> 00:09:08.155 then off it, you know, raising children, having to do something else, 00:09:08.239 --> 00:09:12.591 all that kind of stuff. But I found something about my own heart and my own 00:09:12.674 --> 00:09:18.726 soul. Wow, that sounds really powerful. I didn't know that. It's really powerful, 00:09:18.809 --> 00:09:24.741 Michael. And also that you took a stance for peace and that what you couldn't do 00:09:24.825 --> 00:09:30.456 ethically, this is very powerful. Also, that you just didn't sign a document 00:09:30.539 --> 00:09:35.494 that says, listen, I'm not violent, I never was, and it's not true. 00:09:35.577 --> 00:09:40.757 Because that would have been the easy way out, but you didn't do that. 00:09:40.841 --> 00:09:42.570 That's really powerful. 00:09:43.590 --> 00:09:47.638 Yeah, they used to wake me up when I was, you know, fasting for a long time. 00:09:47.721 --> 00:09:50.845 They used to force feed me, too. That's what kept me alive. 00:09:50.929 --> 00:09:54.161 But they would wake me up in the middle of the night and say, 00:09:54.245 --> 00:09:55.930 we can't find your vital signs. 00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:01.150 do you really want to die for this? And I said, no, I don't want to die. 00:10:01.540 --> 00:10:04.475 I just won't live the way you're telling me I have to live. 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:05.940 It's not me wanting to die. 00:10:06.460 --> 00:10:12.140 Something in me cannot live that way. And they just couldn't understand it, 00:10:12.223 --> 00:10:17.826 you know. Yeah, it sounds also like something bigger in you appeared there 00:10:17.909 --> 00:10:23.807 and pulled you through this time. So that's amazing. That's remarkable. And so… 00:10:23.890 --> 00:10:26.530 If you look at this phase of your life, 00:10:26.830 --> 00:10:31.755 And then you see like a fast forward of the trajectory of your life. 00:10:31.838 --> 00:10:36.910 How do you feel this kind of book? It sounds to me like an initiation, 00:10:36.994 --> 00:10:40.750 like how this initiative or initiatory phase works. 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:44.267 affected the rest of your life 00:10:44.350 --> 00:10:48.516 If you look a bit at what, how does this, how did this affect everything that came 00:10:48.599 --> 00:10:49.432 after? 00:10:50.260 --> 00:10:54.197 Well, part of it was I knew there was this thing in myself that... 00:10:54.280 --> 00:10:58.360 cannot be simply questioned. If I start to feel 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:00.960 I connected it to a sense of authenticity. 00:11:01.990 --> 00:11:08.760 Um, And... And coming with... Inner authenticity comes a sense of authority. 00:11:09.820 --> 00:11:12.034 Not, you know, I was against the authorities, 00:11:12.117 --> 00:11:15.199 but there was a lot of authority in me. As people used to say, 00:11:15.282 --> 00:11:19.334 you defeated the whole army. You didn't go to the war, but you defeated the army. 00:11:19.417 --> 00:11:22.480 And in a way I did, they didn't want to let me out of there. 00:11:22.990 --> 00:11:24.840 because they were afraid the other... 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:29.490 And draftees would go, oh, I'm going to do that, too. But in the meantime, 00:11:29.574 --> 00:11:33.941 I had found something out about the depth of the soul and and the courage in 00:11:34.025 --> 00:11:36.811 the heart and something about an inner authority. 00:11:36.894 --> 00:11:41.145 Because I'll tell you another strange thing. So I'm in this solitary cell. 00:11:41.228 --> 00:11:45.010 Not only have I stopped eating food, I've thrown out the mattress, 00:11:45.093 --> 00:11:47.260 the blankets and all of the clothing. 00:11:47.590 --> 00:11:51.962 Because... I tried to argue with them and say, "You don't realize I'm already gone. 00:11:52.045 --> 00:11:52.879 I'm not here." 00:11:53.350 --> 00:11:58.540 This is over for me. I'm gone. You're just kind of technically holding me back. 00:11:58.624 --> 00:12:02.612 And I, you know, this is a very intense thing. And so anyway, 00:12:02.695 --> 00:12:06.083 I'm sitting in the cell now naked. I'm 20 years old. 00:12:06.167 --> 00:12:08.770 And what happened is the officers were. 00:12:08.920 --> 00:12:11.140 would come in one at a time. 00:12:11.500 --> 00:12:16.115 At night, off duty, they would come to the cell and they would all enter the same way 00:12:16.199 --> 00:12:18.658 and say, soldier, you stand up when I come in. 00:12:18.741 --> 00:12:21.698 I was just sitting there like naked in the cell saying, 00:12:21.782 --> 00:12:23.387 I don't think I'm standing up. 00:12:23.470 --> 00:12:27.418 I mean, I don't even I don't think you have a real authority here in this little 00:12:27.501 --> 00:12:31.247 cell. So they give that up. And then what would they do? They would confess. 00:12:31.330 --> 00:12:32.590 I was hearing confession. 00:12:33.280 --> 00:12:34.577 Every night. 00:12:34.660 --> 00:12:39.155 They knew like this is the one person they could tell the truth to in inside of 00:12:39.238 --> 00:12:39.887 the army. 00:12:39.970 --> 00:12:44.379 And they're confessing, I beat my wife, I drink to get over all the anxiety. 00:12:44.462 --> 00:12:47.950 They're all confessing to me right up to the general point. 00:12:48.040 --> 00:12:50.747 in that area. And so 00:12:50.830 --> 00:12:54.487 This is a whole other part of me that I realized because I was raised Catholic, 00:12:54.571 --> 00:12:58.086 so I understand the confession thing, but I never thought I would be hearing 00:12:58.169 --> 00:12:59.002 confession. 00:12:59.470 --> 00:13:02.650 And so how does that play out later? So, yeah. 00:13:03.070 --> 00:13:07.210 You know, not that many years later, I start working with severely at risk youth. 00:13:07.570 --> 00:13:11.230 gang kids and homeless kids, because I relate to them. 00:13:11.560 --> 00:13:15.680 And and what I wound up doing with them was hearing confession. 00:13:16.330 --> 00:13:20.177 It would be the same kind of thing once they realized that. 00:13:20.260 --> 00:13:22.540 It's like if you find a good therapist. 00:13:22.900 --> 00:13:27.704 The good therapist is good because their self is present and it allows yourself 00:13:27.787 --> 00:13:31.478 to be present. And I wound up like doing that with gang kids. 00:13:31.561 --> 00:13:35.994 And then I and then I started working in prisons. Oh, that's interesting. 00:13:36.077 --> 00:13:40.386 So being so far out of the culture, the way I was in the solitary cell. 00:13:40.469 --> 00:13:42.820 And when I came back, I didn't fit in. 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.907 I wasn't a veteran of the war per se. 00:13:46.990 --> 00:13:50.466 You know, I was also kind of crazy and had PTSD. 00:13:50.549 --> 00:13:54.850 So I understood living on the margins and so on. And so... 00:13:55.330 --> 00:13:57.950 I didn't realize until just now I'm saying it. 00:13:58.270 --> 00:14:04.432 That whether it's people in prison or refugees that I've worked with or kids 00:14:04.515 --> 00:14:09.773 at risk, they all everyone needs to confess. And I've heard many, 00:14:09.856 --> 00:14:14.539 many confessions. And so something shifts inside a person. 00:14:14.622 --> 00:14:18.812 And I don't I consider myself a recovering Catholic, 00:14:18.895 --> 00:14:23.250 but I never thought I would be giving like blessings. 00:14:28.270 --> 00:14:30.304 Not because I think I'm special or something, 00:14:30.388 --> 00:14:32.388 but because the person needs it so much. 00:14:32.890 --> 00:14:37.010 that if you're the one there, then give them the blessing. 00:14:37.330 --> 00:14:42.646 And one of the problems in the modern world is most people are not blessed 00:14:42.730 --> 00:14:47.715 for who they are. Young people are told you have to make something of yourself. 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:52.398 I tell young people you already are something and that something is unique. 00:14:52.481 --> 00:14:57.268 And we need to make that conscious and bring it present because that will show 00:14:57.352 --> 00:15:03.668 you where to go in life. So anyway, I just learned that in talking with you, 00:15:03.752 --> 00:15:10.228 that I actually part of this heart life death experience was realizing I had 00:15:10.311 --> 00:15:15.490 to hear confessions. I actually had to bless those generals. 00:15:16.030 --> 00:15:19.374 And those colonels, it was kind of crazy. But I, you know, 00:15:19.458 --> 00:15:22.329 they were holding me in there, wouldn't let me go. 00:15:22.412 --> 00:15:26.490 But they were also coming in asking for kind of forgiveness in a way. 00:15:26.590 --> 00:15:29.878 And I was at the point I notice I'm doing this in my hands. 00:15:29.961 --> 00:15:34.450 I was like in this in this almost like Jesus position or something where I would 00:15:34.533 --> 00:15:39.021 have to say, OK, you know, you're forgiven for beating your wife. But, you know, 00:15:39.104 --> 00:15:41.707 the problem isn't simply that you did beat her. 00:15:41.790 --> 00:15:45.821 The problem is you're going to do it again. So you can be forgiven. But, 00:15:45.904 --> 00:15:50.335 you know, you have to do something about what in you is causing you to take out 00:15:50.419 --> 00:15:51.137 your life. 00:15:51.220 --> 00:15:56.252 whatever inner violence conflict on you. You know, I was a psychologist too, 00:15:56.336 --> 00:15:59.887 all of a sudden. Anyway, that was life-changing. Yeah, 00:15:59.971 --> 00:16:05.474 that's really amazing. I mean, it's such a strong life story that you're telling us 00:16:05.558 --> 00:16:06.437 here in the... 00:16:06.520 --> 00:16:10.773 First of all, I want to say, like, it feels to me like as if, like, 00:16:10.857 --> 00:16:15.886 through this intensity of this experience, of course, it was also traumatizing. 00:16:15.970 --> 00:16:20.870 But it also has for me feels like it has an initiatory quality for your life. 00:16:20.953 --> 00:16:25.983 And it has a reason why people came to you into this cell and and kind of spoke 00:16:26.067 --> 00:16:28.787 to you about their life. Um, 00:16:28.870 --> 00:16:33.910 And so I don't, yeah, so this is really powerful and interesting. And, um, 00:16:34.270 --> 00:16:36.730 And also the... 00:16:36.820 --> 00:16:42.464 that something in you also became a remedy through that process for other people 00:16:42.547 --> 00:16:46.616 that you worked with in prisons and refugees, as you said, 00:16:46.699 --> 00:16:50.911 and youth at risk. So that something grew in you as a power. 00:16:50.994 --> 00:16:56.495 And I think also that the whole, like, initiatory process plus the trauma kind 00:16:56.578 --> 00:17:00.289 of recovery creates, like, an active substance. Like, 00:17:00.372 --> 00:17:05.872 we become a remedy through our own path. And that's also a bit what our course 00:17:05.956 --> 00:17:06.737 is about. 00:17:06.820 --> 00:17:13.008 how can we turn even the things that are hard in our life into like a remedy also 00:17:13.092 --> 00:17:19.125 for us and for others. And so I'm curious just because of like now that I heard 00:17:19.209 --> 00:17:23.080 your story so much deeper, like I'm curious about, 00:17:23.320 --> 00:17:29.580 the visitations. So if myth was so... 00:17:30.550 --> 00:17:34.649 like so much connect or is so much connected to your soul as it, 00:17:34.732 --> 00:17:39.500 as your life turns out anyway, later also, but like, How... 00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:46.260 How did that help you or support you in this situation when you were so... 00:17:46.690 --> 00:17:52.670 deep in your prison cell and also in the fasting, when you had that, like... 00:17:52.780 --> 00:17:58.100 Can you share a little bit how that helped you in this moment? Like how did that... 00:17:59.110 --> 00:18:00.910 show up in you and help you 00:18:02.830 --> 00:18:07.806 I first found myth on my 13th birthday when my aunt intended to give me a history 00:18:07.889 --> 00:18:12.615 book, but it was a mythology book. And she saw that when I tore the cover up, 00:18:12.698 --> 00:18:17.570 it was wrong and she wanted to take it back and we're fighting over this book. 00:18:17.980 --> 00:18:21.840 And something in me knew I had to have this book. It was the right, 00:18:21.924 --> 00:18:24.430 wrong book. It was a gift. I had to take it. 00:18:24.514 --> 00:18:27.280 It was like a life changing moment right there. 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:31.977 And when I read most of that book that night and when I was reading it, 00:18:32.060 --> 00:18:35.215 I realized, oh, this is the story that we're living. 00:18:35.298 --> 00:18:39.635 Like I was stunned by the idea of the sisters of fate and that everyone 00:18:39.718 --> 00:18:44.740 that comes into the world, you know, they give you your thread of fate and destiny 00:18:44.824 --> 00:18:49.161 and then they make it specific for you. And then there's a limit to it. 00:18:49.244 --> 00:18:53.768 And I thought, that's everybody I know. And everybody has a thread of fate 00:18:53.852 --> 00:18:56.840 and people don't know it. I was stunned by that. 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.240 And I was in a little neighborhood gang at the time. 00:19:00.370 --> 00:19:04.012 And then I'm reading about, you know, Jason and the Golden Fleece, 00:19:04.096 --> 00:19:06.722 and they're all going to find the Golden Fleece, 00:19:06.805 --> 00:19:11.238 which is not golden like treasure. The Golden Fleece was the symbol for justice. 00:19:11.321 --> 00:19:13.778 And I'm realizing, oh, even our gang, really, 00:19:13.861 --> 00:19:18.068 we're looking for something bigger than ourselves. We don't know what it is. 00:19:18.151 --> 00:19:22.527 So I used to tell, like, my friends, you know, we're Jason and the Golden. And, 00:19:22.611 --> 00:19:24.530 you know, that didn't work. Right. 00:19:30.370 --> 00:19:33.510 and Opening and I could not share it with anybody. 00:19:33.593 --> 00:19:36.790 I could not find anyone to share it with. Not teachers, 00:19:36.873 --> 00:19:39.772 certainly not my parents, not my aunts and uncles. 00:19:39.855 --> 00:19:44.721 So it was weird because I had this thing. So but you mentioned the rite of passage. 00:19:44.805 --> 00:19:49.492 So I get out of that whole thing. And now I'm like 21 years old and I don't fit. 00:19:49.576 --> 00:19:54.442 I'm exactly like a battle veteran in that I can't get back into the society because 00:19:54.525 --> 00:19:57.030 I have felt and experienced another level. 00:19:57.160 --> 00:19:58.580 of both life and death. 00:19:59.220 --> 00:19:59.937 Some of you are about 00:20:00.020 --> 00:20:05.187 better. And so what am I going to do? And I didn't even know what psychology was 00:20:05.270 --> 00:20:10.473 and no one in my family would ever go to therapy because that meant you were crazy. 00:20:10.556 --> 00:20:11.817 And of course, yeah, 00:20:11.900 --> 00:20:16.077 they're all crazy, but we're not going to share it with anyone. Anyway, 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:17.337 so I started studying 00:20:17.420 --> 00:20:22.155 rites of passage because I remembered something I had read that said that in 00:20:22.239 --> 00:20:23.380 a rite of passage, 00:20:23.580 --> 00:20:27.957 you separate and then you kind of die and then you come back as another person. 00:20:28.040 --> 00:20:33.780 And since I had almost died several times, so I began to study rites of passage. 00:20:34.320 --> 00:20:36.540 And and that really helped me. 00:20:36.700 --> 00:20:42.308 That helped me understand that I was in an unfinished rite of passage and why that's 00:20:42.391 --> 00:20:47.940 important now. I think we are collectively humanity in a rite of passage. 00:20:48.620 --> 00:20:51.560 And we've already separated from the world that we had. 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:55.740 And there's many, many places around the world that can testify immediately. 00:20:56.620 --> 00:20:59.020 And in a rite of passage, there's no going back. 00:20:59.760 --> 00:21:01.257 And that was part of my problem. 00:21:01.340 --> 00:21:03.957 I couldn't go back. My family didn't understand who I was. 00:21:04.040 --> 00:21:08.040 I couldn't live in the neighborhood because they misunderstood who I was. 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:12.860 And I couldn't go back. So I had to go forward in some other way. 00:21:13.760 --> 00:21:15.780 So I think we're in that now. 00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:20.179 We're in the middle phase of a rite of passage where we've already lost the world 00:21:20.262 --> 00:21:23.357 we thought we had, but we haven't found the next world yet. 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:28.181 and in rites of passage they call that liminal we're in the liminal space betwixt 00:21:28.265 --> 00:21:28.837 and between 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:35.920 now that also turns out to be the exact space of creativity the the artist the you 00:21:36.422 --> 00:21:37.437 know whoever 00:21:37.520 --> 00:21:42.113 is making something if it's a genuine creative process in the middle of it 00:21:42.196 --> 00:21:43.377 the doubts will come 00:21:43.460 --> 00:21:48.296 the uncertainty the model doesn't work all kinds of things will happen and then 00:21:48.379 --> 00:21:54.302 this the psyche is the liminal space, which is the space of upset, uncertainty, 00:21:54.386 --> 00:21:57.397 serious doubt, confusion and conflict. 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:02.358 But it's also the space where the images come in and the ideas come in 00:22:02.441 --> 00:22:04.000 and inspiration comes. 00:22:04.800 --> 00:22:10.610 And and so so we are I think we're in that now collectively and that what's trying 00:22:10.693 --> 00:22:17.287 to happen is a transformation of humanity, because as we stand mostly now, 00:22:17.370 --> 00:22:19.077 generally speaking, 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:26.160 we have lost the deepest values the most deepest qualities of being humane to each 00:22:26.491 --> 00:22:33.491 other And it going to continue for a while because the the forces and powers that be 00:22:34.001 --> 00:22:40.087 are seeing it all as literal wartime conflict as if that can solve it 00:22:40.170 --> 00:22:45.325 when all evidence is that just causes it to deepen and continue so and it's in 00:22:45.408 --> 00:22:46.467 the midst of this 00:22:46.550 --> 00:22:51.696 tearing apart of the world and this shattering of uh institutions which can't 00:22:51.780 --> 00:22:52.987 keep up with what's 00:22:53.070 --> 00:23:00.070 going on and this kind of deep disturbance to the soul of humanity that we have 00:23:00.419 --> 00:23:00.987 to find 00:23:01.070 --> 00:23:07.602 the threads of imagination and the threads of healing and whatever we need to do 00:23:07.686 --> 00:23:08.347 to remake 00:23:08.430 --> 00:23:15.232 humanity based on the deepest values of the soul rather than on the collective 00:23:15.316 --> 00:23:17.510 values of nationalities and so on. 00:23:17.970 --> 00:23:22.310 That's how it seems to me. And we are now all in that space, like it or not. 00:23:23.070 --> 00:23:25.670 And from a mythological point of view, it can't end. 00:23:26.150 --> 00:23:29.290 In mythological terms, the world ends and it begins again. 00:23:29.430 --> 00:23:30.680 It's happened many times. 00:23:31.350 --> 00:23:36.130 Myth is about, I mean, the premier moments in myth are beginning and end. 00:23:36.710 --> 00:23:38.660 And so mythically, the world continues. 00:23:38.890 --> 00:23:45.890 I think the issue is how long we spend in the liminal betwixt and between conflict 00:23:47.607 --> 00:23:50.967 condition. That's the issue. There's a way out. 00:23:51.050 --> 00:23:56.452 Humanity has gone through this before. Not exactly the same because we have nature 00:23:56.535 --> 00:23:59.010 unraveling while culture is rattling. 00:23:59.910 --> 00:24:04.763 You know, that's unusual. But. I think what I learned in that prison cell, 00:24:04.846 --> 00:24:10.366 in a way, was there something deeper than what I call me that knows me better than I 00:24:10.450 --> 00:24:13.230 know myself. and it knows why I'm here. 00:24:14.090 --> 00:24:21.090 For myself, I'm actually closer to being carrying medicine for other people as well 00:24:21.470 --> 00:24:23.310 or helping them find their medicine. 00:24:23.450 --> 00:24:25.950 Maybe that's what I'm trying to do to some degree. 00:24:26.170 --> 00:24:31.107 But I think you hit on something because I come out of that situation 00:24:31.190 --> 00:24:34.290 totally in liminal space. 00:24:34.770 --> 00:24:38.687 I was literally between and I knew I couldn't go back. 00:24:38.770 --> 00:24:42.193 I had to leave New York where I had grown up and everything because I couldn't find 00:24:42.277 --> 00:24:42.447 myself 00:24:42.530 --> 00:24:46.810 there because it was a deeper version of myself that I was trying to find. 00:24:47.310 --> 00:24:50.610 And now I feel like that seems to be what we're all going through. 00:24:51.450 --> 00:24:53.027 Wow, that's so beautiful, Michael. 00:24:53.110 --> 00:24:53.943 So many things. 00:24:55.070 --> 00:24:59.992 So many things I wanted to capture and underline But I want to underline two 00:25:00.076 --> 00:25:05.393 things Like I think that exactly on the one hand what you just said is exactly why 00:25:05.477 --> 00:25:10.662 we came here together to have this course exactly for this phase of this liminal 00:25:10.746 --> 00:25:15.866 collective phase that we are in So that beautiful And you framed it in your own 00:25:15.949 --> 00:25:18.237 way And I completely agree with this 00:25:18.320 --> 00:25:24.360 And I'm so happy you're expressing this so eloquently in your own way. 00:25:25.180 --> 00:25:31.189 And I loved when you said, like, I met something in the prison that knows me 00:25:31.272 --> 00:25:35.117 deeper than I know myself, like a deeper knowing. 00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:41.897 and I think this is a very powerful that's a very powerful 00:25:41.980 --> 00:25:46.877 statement also to make like that there is a deeper creative force 00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:51.617 or whatever however we call it or a deeper soul or whatever it is in our language 00:25:51.700 --> 00:25:57.137 like that is deeper than this time the movement of the time 00:25:57.220 --> 00:26:02.617 and I think that's a very powerful thing to say 00:26:02.700 --> 00:26:04.337 and you're not only saying it 00:26:04.420 --> 00:26:06.577 You're transmitting it through your own experience. 00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:09.761 And also it's great for all of us to feel, wow, 00:26:09.844 --> 00:26:14.842 there is something deeper than how to make up the architecture of the time, 00:26:14.926 --> 00:26:17.500 the structures of this time look like. 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.700 Yeah. It's very powerful. 00:26:21.580 --> 00:26:27.851 In this, and I love also what you said about the one world is gone, 00:26:27.935 --> 00:26:33.637 the other one didn't arrive, and we're in this liminal space. 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:40.720 So if we stay there for a moment, what did you learn over the course of your life? 00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:48.480 What are the qualities we develop, we have to develop, we might develop, whatever, in 00:26:50.840 --> 00:26:55.380 these liminal spaces that are supportive? 00:26:55.520 --> 00:26:57.680 Is there at all something we can develop? 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.857 Because maybe it's just about being in this time. 00:27:00.940 --> 00:27:04.325 So maybe you share with us a little bit, like, 00:27:04.409 --> 00:27:09.981 what and what do myths say about the development that happens in this space 00:27:10.064 --> 00:27:11.120 of creativity? 00:27:12.020 --> 00:27:18.000 So the first thing I think of is Carl Jung's idea of the deep self. 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.400 Some people call it the soul. In mythology, it would be soul. 00:27:22.540 --> 00:27:24.777 In psychology, it tends to be self. 00:27:24.860 --> 00:27:31.312 And so the majority of people near as I can tell do not know they have a deeper 00:27:31.395 --> 00:27:35.200 self that knows who they are and why they here 00:27:35.420 --> 00:27:39.920 In mythological terms, each soul that comes into the world is unique, 00:27:40.003 --> 00:27:44.503 but it has its gifts and its own medicine, inner medicine and wisdom, 00:27:44.587 --> 00:27:48.600 if we want to call it that. And each soul is aimed at something meaningful. 00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:50.977 That whole idea has been lost. 00:27:51.060 --> 00:27:56.257 people now think of the blank soul the tabula rasa the soul entered the world 00:27:56.340 --> 00:27:57.217 blank and then 00:27:57.300 --> 00:28:01.222 your family writes on you and the neighborhood writes on you and you become 00:28:01.305 --> 00:28:02.077 the sum total of 00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:06.781 things that have affected you from the outside but the idea of the deep soul 00:28:06.864 --> 00:28:07.957 or the deep self is 00:28:08.040 --> 00:28:13.986 it's already there inside deep characteristics that are essentially noble 00:28:14.069 --> 00:28:19.596 in everybody I mean, that's that's how I have to think about it, because, you know, 00:28:19.679 --> 00:28:24.760 otherwise I'm judging people better or worse without knowing their deep soul. 00:28:25.600 --> 00:28:30.660 So so there's that. And you got that idea of the deep self during World War Two. 00:28:31.280 --> 00:28:35.257 He looked at World War Two, which was a tearing apart of the world at that time. 00:28:35.340 --> 00:28:39.397 And he said, what can happen here that changes this? 00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:41.377 Because he saw the horror of what was happening. 00:28:41.460 --> 00:28:47.800 and he had been studying Asian mythology when he got the idea of the deep self, 00:28:48.040 --> 00:28:51.420 which is really profoundly present in Asian mythology. 00:28:52.120 --> 00:28:55.240 And so he kind of brought that to the Western world in a way. 00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:58.160 It's a really powerful image for me. 00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:02.837 So in the midst of the liminal betwixt and between, 00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:04.897 when it feels like everything could be torn apart, 00:29:04.980 --> 00:29:08.320 fall apart, all could come to an end, that's at a certain level. 00:29:08.500 --> 00:29:10.857 And below that is the deep self. 00:29:10.940 --> 00:29:16.395 And the deep self is bringing all the gifts of the psyche uniquely arranged 00:29:16.478 --> 00:29:17.660 for each person. 00:29:18.360 --> 00:29:24.546 But the deep self also, because it's an archetypal deep sense of self, 00:29:24.630 --> 00:29:28.660 is connected to both the past and the future. 00:29:29.520 --> 00:29:34.410 So from the deep self, if you can stand the liminal enough to get in touch 00:29:34.493 --> 00:29:38.577 with the deep self, something happens that is really profound. 00:29:38.660 --> 00:29:44.120 And to me, you can see it from misunderstanding of the word prophecy. 00:29:45.340 --> 00:29:48.400 Most people think prophecy means predicting the future. 00:29:49.040 --> 00:29:50.590 That's not what the word means. 00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:57.598 Prophecy means to be standing so deep in the river of time that ideas from the past 00:29:57.681 --> 00:29:59.917 that have been lost can't be. 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:05.518 flow to you and images of the future that have not yet been seen can also flow 00:30:05.601 --> 00:30:10.760 to you. And an awakening can occur in the depth of the self in the center 00:30:10.843 --> 00:30:15.571 that brings the ancient past and the mostly unseen future together. 00:30:15.654 --> 00:30:19.460 And that's a capacity of each person's self and soul. 00:30:20.310 --> 00:30:24.367 So that's. one way or two look at it, because... 00:30:24.450 --> 00:30:27.070 To me... We've lost something. 00:30:27.630 --> 00:30:29.167 We've lost. 00:30:29.250 --> 00:30:33.319 We've lost a soul connection. You can't go about wanting to kill other people unless 00:30:33.402 --> 00:30:34.502 you've lost your soul. 00:30:35.070 --> 00:30:39.000 You know, a person in touch with their own self and soul cannot do that. 00:30:39.083 --> 00:30:41.954 They might have to do it under great, great pressure, 00:30:42.037 --> 00:30:44.351 but they're not willingly going to do that. 00:30:44.434 --> 00:30:47.890 And so we've lost something of this deep self and soul. But... 00:30:48.060 --> 00:30:50.400 in a sense, is trying to come back. 00:30:50.850 --> 00:30:54.760 And just as when an individual has a crisis in their life, 00:30:54.844 --> 00:30:59.925 it's in that crisis that they become a bigger soul or else become a smaller 00:31:00.008 --> 00:31:00.841 person. 00:31:01.050 --> 00:31:06.456 And humanity is now in that crisis. We're either going to awaken to a greater sense 00:31:06.539 --> 00:31:09.763 of soul and self, which is going to bring courage, 00:31:09.846 --> 00:31:12.637 an unusual kind of courage and imagination. 00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.981 Or we're going to stay stuck because we didn't manage. 00:31:16.064 --> 00:31:19.780 And then people's lives might get smaller and smaller until. 00:31:20.310 --> 00:31:23.470 another critical moment occurs. I'm not sure about that. 00:31:23.610 --> 00:31:28.941 But I love the idea that we're in prophetic times if we understand prophecy 00:31:29.024 --> 00:31:34.499 as ancient things trying to catch up to us and unseen things trying to reveal 00:31:34.583 --> 00:31:35.810 themselves to us. 00:31:36.120 --> 00:31:42.437 Wow, that's very beautiful. So what I hear you say is also that this is a time where 00:31:42.521 --> 00:31:47.560 it's not about – how much we can hold on to what we know about the world, 00:31:47.644 --> 00:31:52.118 but it's a time where that allows us because we are less identified, 00:31:52.201 --> 00:31:55.670 maybe with all the structures that are falling apart, 00:31:55.754 --> 00:31:58.770 even if that's a painful process to re-enact, 00:31:59.370 --> 00:32:06.370 to become a member again of a deeper soul stream that then infuses fresh information 00:32:07.357 --> 00:32:10.210 from ancient and future times. 00:32:10.830 --> 00:32:16.120 Yeah, because Jung also had the idea of he gave it different names, 00:32:16.203 --> 00:32:19.649 but I think he was a prophet in his own way, 00:32:19.732 --> 00:32:25.503 in the sense that he was bringing ancient knowledge and wisdom to bear in 00:32:25.587 --> 00:32:28.872 the present moment. And so in his own way, 00:32:28.955 --> 00:32:34.890 he would refer to the soul as being this timeless agent of humanity. Yeah. 00:32:35.340 --> 00:32:38.694 that goes all the way back to the beginning. 00:32:38.778 --> 00:32:42.840 And then the idea is that in terms of remembering... 00:32:43.170 --> 00:32:46.267 When you take the idea of the archetypal... 00:32:46.350 --> 00:32:47.550 level of soul. 00:32:48.690 --> 00:32:51.210 Memory goes all the way down and all the way back. 00:32:51.450 --> 00:32:54.490 And if we can allow it, 00:32:54.600 --> 00:32:59.921 In the precise time when the institutions cannot deal with the rapidity of change 00:33:00.004 --> 00:33:02.917 and the dramatic extremes that are going on. 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:09.073 At that exact moment, that's when the deep memory or the deep well of memory can come 00:33:09.156 --> 00:33:15.194 up through people. And and I don't mean to be Pollyanna about it. You know, 00:33:15.277 --> 00:33:21.144 I've we're going to suffer for a while and the agony of being alive right now 00:33:21.227 --> 00:33:24.550 is genuine. But there's also evidence that. 00:33:24.660 --> 00:33:27.260 groups have gone through this before. 00:33:27.900 --> 00:33:31.260 In India, they call it fording the river of time. 00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:34.640 that you come to a place where you have to cross the river. 00:33:35.340 --> 00:33:40.406 And why cross the river? Because on the other side is all the things that we lost, 00:33:40.489 --> 00:33:43.671 the great imagination, the courage that people lack, 00:33:43.755 --> 00:33:47.879 the images and the stories and the wisdom that is not. It's nearby, 00:33:47.962 --> 00:33:50.516 but we have to cross a river to get to it. 00:33:50.600 --> 00:33:55.101 And then some spiritual groups take on take a hold of that. And they say, 00:33:55.184 --> 00:33:58.554 once you get those things, you don't come back. But no, 00:33:58.638 --> 00:34:02.280 there's another way to see it. I call it Bodhisattva time. 00:34:02.610 --> 00:34:04.530 Because the Bodhisattva in that 00:34:04.770 --> 00:34:09.739 In terms of that spiritual tradition is the one who becomes enlightened and aware 00:34:09.823 --> 00:34:14.231 and more knowledgeable and more centered and grounded and then goes, oh, 00:34:14.314 --> 00:34:18.930 I better go back and help everybody else because they they need this, too. 00:34:19.110 --> 00:34:22.961 And so sometimes I think we're in Bodhisattva time. 00:34:23.044 --> 00:34:26.130 Whatever we can learn, we have to not... 00:34:26.520 --> 00:34:31.117 take for ourselves, we actually have to find a way to distribute it like medicine. 00:34:31.200 --> 00:34:34.100 Yeah, I love this deep well-duty. 00:34:34.200 --> 00:34:38.993 and how we deepen, how we deepen this, like how we touch this, 00:34:39.076 --> 00:34:43.397 this groundwater that is, seems like out of reach. What, 00:34:43.481 --> 00:34:47.020 what do you feel like if, if you said before, 00:34:47.430 --> 00:34:50.510 will be lost touch with the soul. 00:34:51.270 --> 00:34:56.110 Mm. How does one lose touch with something that's so intimate? 00:34:56.940 --> 00:35:01.434 Well, by denying and repressing and suppressing it. 00:35:01.517 --> 00:35:07.620 So I'm using soul as the old term for the connective tissue of life. 00:35:08.010 --> 00:35:13.540 Spirit is a wonderful thing, and spirit wants to ascend. 00:35:14.340 --> 00:35:18.667 And also get to the place of oneness. Usually we call it spirit nut. 00:35:18.750 --> 00:35:22.740 Plural spirit. Well, soul is going down. It wants to go down. 00:35:22.824 --> 00:35:26.213 So is spirits connected to air and fire and goes up. 00:35:26.296 --> 00:35:30.153 So is connected to water and earth and it wants to go down. 00:35:30.236 --> 00:35:35.495 So we've lost our downness. Humans who are children of the earth, by definition, 00:35:35.578 --> 00:35:40.837 have been trying to destroy the earth or exploit it to the point of destruction. 00:35:40.921 --> 00:35:43.776 And that has to change. As a matter of fact, 00:35:43.859 --> 00:35:46.530 from a point of view of earth awareness, 00:35:48.750 --> 00:35:52.900 them you know, bombing things to shreds. 00:35:53.100 --> 00:35:58.049 cannot be an answer. It's actually destructive, not just to people, 00:35:58.133 --> 00:36:02.940 of course, but also to the earth. It's as if we have to learn... 00:36:03.060 --> 00:36:05.340 the idea of going down. 00:36:05.520 --> 00:36:09.880 There's an old saying, when you find yourself in a descent, dive. 00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:16.196 We are in a big descent. I mean, so many things are saying we are descending. 00:36:16.279 --> 00:36:18.320 So the point then is to dive. 00:36:19.590 --> 00:36:23.779 And I know that people can't trust that if they don't know they're diving towards 00:36:23.863 --> 00:36:24.457 something. 00:36:24.540 --> 00:36:29.302 So there's really something essential about the meaning and the value of 00:36:29.385 --> 00:36:32.936 the individual soul. And maybe that's what I'm saying. 00:36:33.019 --> 00:36:35.980 We've lost the value of the individual soul. 00:36:36.660 --> 00:36:42.400 How else can people be so destructive and so dead on opposed to each other? 00:36:43.260 --> 00:36:48.880 As soon as we realize each person has a soul and each soul is unique. 00:36:49.260 --> 00:36:55.537 philosophically, ethically, that puts us on a different ground. And so 00:36:55.620 --> 00:36:58.718 That, I think, has been forgotten because of mass culture. 00:36:58.801 --> 00:37:01.625 Mass culture says we are each part of a voting group, 00:37:01.708 --> 00:37:05.135 we're part of a purchasing group, we're part of an ethnic group, 00:37:05.218 --> 00:37:10.894 all that kind of thing. The Most important thing has always been the individual soul, 00:37:10.977 --> 00:37:13.603 because it's the individual soul that awakens. 00:37:13.686 --> 00:37:16.842 It's the individual soul that takes a meaningful stand. 00:37:16.925 --> 00:37:20.552 We think of all the people, heroines and heroes, the real ones, 00:37:20.635 --> 00:37:24.637 Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela. Everybody can name who they are. 00:37:24.720 --> 00:37:28.248 They were individual souls that took a stand. And in doing that, 00:37:28.331 --> 00:37:32.142 they didn't just find the center and the grounding of their own life. 00:37:32.225 --> 00:37:34.200 They affected everyone around them. 00:37:35.100 --> 00:37:39.860 So the collective of humanity can't change at the collective level. 00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:44.920 It has to be individual souls that then affect the collective change. 00:37:45.630 --> 00:37:50.656 And then to go back to Jung, who's borrowing from mythology, really, 00:37:50.739 --> 00:37:54.217 each individual soul is as deep as deep can be. 00:37:54.300 --> 00:37:57.060 The word memory comes from nemesene. 00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:59.340 The goddess of memory. 00:37:59.640 --> 00:38:04.862 And she's also the mother of the muses. So if we go into the deep memory well, 00:38:04.945 --> 00:38:08.807 we not only find things that have been lost and forgotten, 00:38:08.890 --> 00:38:14.112 we find our individual connection to the muses who are the inspiration for all 00:38:14.196 --> 00:38:15.420 kinds of creation. 00:38:16.200 --> 00:38:19.501 And so just to put a mythological touch on it, 00:38:19.584 --> 00:38:24.660 we are in the end times with regard to the world that's already gone. 00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:29.642 And we're in the beginning times in terms of what's trying to happen. 00:38:29.726 --> 00:38:33.218 But I think what's trying to happen is coming from deep, 00:38:33.301 --> 00:38:35.600 deep down rather than high, high up. 00:38:36.090 --> 00:38:40.987 And so The individual person becomes the potential agent of the individual. 00:38:41.070 --> 00:38:46.110 of recreation by becoming more aware of their own life. 00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:49.200 And to go back to the idea of the paths... 00:38:49.710 --> 00:38:53.099 In terms of depth psychology, but also mythology, 00:38:53.182 --> 00:38:57.150 each person is already called to a kind of path in life. 00:38:58.140 --> 00:39:01.528 And it's different than a career. A career might get you through. 00:39:01.611 --> 00:39:03.480 A path will get you to be yourself. 00:39:04.470 --> 00:39:08.850 And when a person has response to a genuine calling and they find a path, 00:39:09.090 --> 00:39:14.557 You can tolerate much greater tension and much greater conflict than, of course, 00:39:14.640 --> 00:39:17.730 tension becomes creative tension. 00:39:18.150 --> 00:39:22.703 And they say that the way you judge the maturity of a person is based upon how 00:39:22.786 --> 00:39:24.510 much tension they can handle. 00:39:24.690 --> 00:39:30.490 Because the more tension we can handle, the more we are available to inspiration, 00:39:31.110 --> 00:39:36.000 from above or And also creative energies coming from below. 00:39:36.270 --> 00:39:40.730 So I think when I guess when I said we lost soul, we lost the. 00:39:41.160 --> 00:39:44.400 Understanding of the importance of the individual soul. 00:39:44.700 --> 00:39:49.454 Because that soul individually carries unique gifts and unique medicines 00:39:49.538 --> 00:39:54.560 and capacities that the world needs. Not that anyone's going to be the hero. 00:39:54.644 --> 00:39:57.600 I like the hero myth, but I'm not a big fan. 00:39:58.170 --> 00:39:59.927 I'm a fan of the genius myth, which... 00:40:00.010 --> 00:40:03.070 Says that everyone has their own inner genius. 00:40:03.730 --> 00:40:08.628 And that when that genius awakens, they realize not just that they have capacities 00:40:08.711 --> 00:40:12.333 and gifts that should be given, but also they have a calling, 00:40:12.416 --> 00:40:15.552 which is what opens the path and the paths of genius. 00:40:15.636 --> 00:40:20.070 If enough people all gets on the paths of genius, we don't have to agree. 00:40:20.650 --> 00:40:24.652 Because everybody's going to be doing what they're called to do. 00:40:24.735 --> 00:40:28.674 And if we agree at least that the soul is noble and meaningful, 00:40:28.757 --> 00:40:31.802 then mostly noble, meaningful things will happen. 00:40:31.885 --> 00:40:34.630 And then that changes the world from below. 00:40:35.620 --> 00:40:37.510 Up. Mm-hmm. 00:40:37.660 --> 00:40:44.343 Wow, this is beautiful. First of all, again, so eloquently put. And also, 00:40:44.426 --> 00:40:46.997 I love... I love this depth. 00:40:47.080 --> 00:40:51.780 And this well from which we create something new. I love this, 00:40:51.863 --> 00:40:56.486 like how you mentioned that when we really find our vocation, 00:40:56.570 --> 00:41:02.504 like you found your vocation, but your vocation is not separate from the rest. 00:41:02.587 --> 00:41:06.516 Your vocation is inclusive of the rest of the world. 00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:12.540 Because as soul is the connective tissue, when you touch your soul, you're... 00:41:12.640 --> 00:41:17.560 And you are with everything. So it's not that I do my thing and then maybe it will 00:41:17.643 --> 00:41:21.831 support the world. Like if I'm really connected and it's not my thing, 00:41:21.915 --> 00:41:26.652 it's like it's the expression of my soul, but it's not separate, like my thing. 00:41:26.735 --> 00:41:29.641 And so, and that's beautiful when you said, okay, 00:41:29.725 --> 00:41:34.240 that's the connective tissue is the soul. And this feels really beautiful. 00:41:35.020 --> 00:41:37.520 Is there anything we can... 00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:45.255 practice participate in a certain way in such a phase that makes a positive 00:41:45.339 --> 00:41:46.280 difference? 00:41:47.170 --> 00:41:49.330 Are there any skills to develop... 00:41:49.510 --> 00:41:53.010 Everyone enters the world gifted and ate. 00:41:53.200 --> 00:41:56.680 Specific arrangement of gifts, talents, capacities. 00:41:57.070 --> 00:41:58.250 And a specific aim. 00:41:59.170 --> 00:42:03.966 It doesn't mean that a person can have a multiple complicated path through life. 00:42:04.049 --> 00:42:06.588 It just means that it's aimed at something. 00:42:06.671 --> 00:42:09.050 I wrote a book called Fate and Destiny. 00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:12.692 And I was trying to say fate is all that restricts us. 00:42:12.776 --> 00:42:17.756 Destiny is everything that calls us to live beyond all respect restrictions we've 00:42:17.839 --> 00:42:22.444 been given. And we're all in the path of fate and destiny being pulled back 00:42:22.527 --> 00:42:27.382 and forth and held in that tension. So if we can take on the idea that everyone 00:42:27.466 --> 00:42:30.945 is unique and uniquely gifted, it doesn't mean, you know, 00:42:31.029 --> 00:42:34.759 the word genius doesn't mean high IQ or even specific talent. 00:42:34.842 --> 00:42:37.757 The word means the spirit that's already there. 00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:41.163 That's the original meaning of the word genius. 00:42:41.246 --> 00:42:45.439 So the spirit that's already there in a person is a gifted, 00:42:45.522 --> 00:42:51.165 an arrangement of gifts and capacities. And finding that doesn't make life less 00:42:51.248 --> 00:42:56.600 tragic or less troublesome. It just means we're going somewhere while we're 00:42:56.684 --> 00:42:59.862 experiencing the tragedies and the suffering. 00:42:59.945 --> 00:43:04.863 And then this idea of being gifted is connected with the notion that, 00:43:04.946 --> 00:43:07.700 like you were saying, it's not for me. 00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:11.540 by me. The gifts aren't mine, they're intended to be given. 00:43:11.950 --> 00:43:16.078 And then the big surprise happens. The more the person gives their gifts, 00:43:16.162 --> 00:43:17.950 the more the gifts are present. 00:43:18.070 --> 00:43:21.907 You can't drain it because it's the spirit that's already there. 00:43:21.991 --> 00:43:26.747 You can't drain it. It's all a matter of learning how to keep giving it in more 00:43:26.830 --> 00:43:27.810 meaningful ways. 00:43:28.690 --> 00:43:31.999 But to me, calling, which is really important, you know, 00:43:32.082 --> 00:43:37.086 you can choose a career. And as there's an old story about the man who sees a ladder 00:43:37.170 --> 00:43:41.023 against the wall and he starts climbing that ladder rung by rung, 00:43:41.107 --> 00:43:43.590 gets all the way to the top and realizes. 00:43:44.020 --> 00:43:46.060 It's leaning against the wrong wall. 00:43:46.720 --> 00:43:50.527 How many people have had that? So what the calling is, 00:43:50.610 --> 00:43:54.140 the calling is calling to the genius in a person. 00:43:54.670 --> 00:43:58.245 So the calling is specific also. And the calling can come at any time. 00:43:58.328 --> 00:44:01.798 And in a sense, that's what I learned in that prison cell. You know, 00:44:01.882 --> 00:44:05.195 it's the last thing I wanted was to be locked up and locked down. 00:44:05.278 --> 00:44:09.250 And maybe the last thing anyone would want. And then here comes the calling. 00:44:09.850 --> 00:44:14.239 Then I spend the next 20 years trying to live with that calling, 00:44:14.322 --> 00:44:18.641 kind of understand what it means. And as it becomes more clear, 00:44:18.724 --> 00:44:21.030 then the path becomes more clear. 00:44:21.670 --> 00:44:26.830 And there's an old idea in India of finding the path with heart. 00:44:28.180 --> 00:44:33.317 So the first thing is some sense of who I am and what I bring to the world. 00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:38.142 And the next thing is finding or hearing the call and then taking having 00:44:38.225 --> 00:44:42.967 the courage to take the risk. When I started telling stories and talking 00:44:43.050 --> 00:44:48.977 mythology. I didn't know anyone else doing that. I mean, James... 00:44:49.060 --> 00:44:50.000 Joseph Campbell. 00:44:50.740 --> 00:44:54.224 who I eventually worked with, was the only one anyone knew doing that, 00:44:54.308 --> 00:44:55.480 but he was an academic. 00:44:55.690 --> 00:45:00.676 I'm not an academic. I'm doing it in the streets. I'm doing it in prisons. 00:45:00.759 --> 00:45:05.883 You know, I'm following a call that without any evidence of where it's going 00:45:05.966 --> 00:45:10.570 or how you negotiate it. And then it's tossed to take its own shape. 00:45:11.080 --> 00:45:16.806 And so. It seems to me there's an old idea when everything's falling apart, 00:45:16.889 --> 00:45:21.508 there's an acceleration of calling. And you mentioned it earlier when the when 00:45:21.591 --> 00:45:25.630 the institutions are not working and the frameworks are shattering. 00:45:26.470 --> 00:45:28.450 The call of spirit gets through more. 00:45:29.020 --> 00:45:34.980 It's more available. And when there's no way to see a sensible life path. 00:45:35.890 --> 00:45:42.070 there's more reason to take a meaningful life path. And so so that can happen. But. 00:45:42.700 --> 00:45:47.334 The other thing I've found is that everyone has a natural inclination towards 00:45:47.417 --> 00:45:48.520 certain practices. 00:45:49.900 --> 00:45:54.567 No one can go the path on their own. We need to connect to other souls. 00:45:54.651 --> 00:45:57.257 The idea of having friends of the soul. 00:45:57.340 --> 00:46:02.612 It's not like meeting many friends like on Facebook and modern stuff like that. 00:46:02.695 --> 00:46:05.000 It's having a few soulful friends. 00:46:05.530 --> 00:46:09.722 who know who we are and still like us. I'm joking, but you know what I mean? 00:46:09.806 --> 00:46:13.661 We know each other's weaknesses and we love each other for who we are. 00:46:13.744 --> 00:46:16.586 That's really important, having friends of the soul. 00:46:16.670 --> 00:46:19.118 And then the other thing is having practices. 00:46:19.201 --> 00:46:21.762 And because the gifts of a person are specific, 00:46:21.846 --> 00:46:25.390 the inclination towards practices can tend to be that way, too. 00:46:25.780 --> 00:46:31.274 And so I really encourage people to find practices because we can be knocked off 00:46:31.357 --> 00:46:35.627 the path and knocked out of our sense of cohesion by practice. 00:46:35.710 --> 00:46:40.355 by all the things that are happening day after day, and it's going to continue. 00:46:40.439 --> 00:46:43.588 And so, you know, there's two great paths of practice, 00:46:43.671 --> 00:46:47.598 the meditative contemplative path and the creative expressive path. 00:46:47.682 --> 00:46:50.471 That's the way they divided it in ancient India. 00:46:50.555 --> 00:46:54.602 And some people are called to go into deep meditation and reflection, 00:46:54.685 --> 00:46:59.091 and they find their self that way. And other people are called to go and be 00:46:59.174 --> 00:47:01.030 creative, make music, make art, 00:47:05.710 --> 00:47:10.355 practice. And then some people go back and forth. And that's okay, too. 00:47:10.439 --> 00:47:13.000 There's no rules. The idea... Thank you. 00:47:13.090 --> 00:47:16.570 Sometimes you just ask people, "What do you love?" 00:47:17.230 --> 00:47:20.729 And if a person can answer that, well, that could be part of the path and 00:47:20.812 --> 00:47:22.562 that could be part of the practice. 00:47:23.110 --> 00:47:27.800 And so some of us love music and need music. And then you have to figure out, 00:47:27.884 --> 00:47:32.264 am I just a listener or am I going to make it? And then in making music, 00:47:32.347 --> 00:47:36.975 you're not trying to win the contest. You're trying to find the voice coming 00:47:37.059 --> 00:47:41.811 through you. And so practices become really important because the world around 00:47:41.894 --> 00:47:46.210 this is not going to settle. And a practice can become a refuge. 00:47:46.930 --> 00:47:49.969 a dwelling place. It doesn't have to be silent and quiet, 00:47:50.053 --> 00:47:51.917 although for some people that's it. 00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:53.380 It can be very creative. 00:47:54.100 --> 00:47:58.578 And in the midst of a world full of destruction, destruction, 00:47:58.661 --> 00:48:02.400 being creative is its own kind of rite of passage. 00:48:03.100 --> 00:48:09.873 Yeah, beautiful. Beautiful. And you said something that also caught my attention. 00:48:09.956 --> 00:48:11.480 You said in a way, 00:48:12.130 --> 00:48:18.846 Like maturity we see in the way how much tension we can kind of stay related to 00:48:18.929 --> 00:48:24.268 or handle. And I want you to maybe speak a bit more about that. 00:48:24.351 --> 00:48:28.310 How does this reflect maturity? How does it... 00:48:28.720 --> 00:48:33.116 teach us that that if we have tension or discomfort in our life, 00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:35.890 it's not necessarily a good or a bad thing. 00:48:36.520 --> 00:48:42.004 It's part of the path and our relationship to it and how we handle it also shows 00:48:42.087 --> 00:48:46.826 something about... the maturity of our path in the world. And yeah, 00:48:46.909 --> 00:48:52.298 so maybe you can speak a bit about this because I think that's also a very 00:48:52.381 --> 00:48:56.300 important aspect of how to be in this time right now. 00:48:56.830 --> 00:49:01.282 That's part of the liminal condition is extraordinary tension. Well, 00:49:01.365 --> 00:49:04.483 the first thing that comes to mind is I'm a kid. 00:49:04.567 --> 00:49:09.485 I'm at home in the house in New York City when I'm growing up and my mother 00:49:09.569 --> 00:49:12.770 and father are having a really intense argument. 00:49:13.330 --> 00:49:17.354 A little unusual for my father to be so outspoken and argumentative, 00:49:17.437 --> 00:49:22.186 not so unusual with my mother. But I wake up and I go into the kitchen and there 00:49:22.269 --> 00:49:26.172 they are having the standoff. And I don't know which one to go to. 00:49:26.256 --> 00:49:30.763 I'm like getting really scared. And then I finally decide I'm going to go to 00:49:30.846 --> 00:49:31.679 my mother. 00:49:32.140 --> 00:49:35.667 Um, Later in life, I wouldn't necessarily go that way. 00:49:35.750 --> 00:49:38.702 I think my father was on the greater danger. But anyway, 00:49:38.785 --> 00:49:42.200 I had to go to one or the other. I could not stand the tension. 00:49:43.060 --> 00:49:44.060 as a child. 00:49:44.440 --> 00:49:51.160 And so then when we get to looking like or acting like adults, Um, 00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:55.455 we should have the capacity to withstand that tension greater because, 00:49:55.539 --> 00:49:59.937 you know, everyone near as I can tell everyone is an abandoned child, uh, 00:50:00.020 --> 00:50:04.873 Everyone has early life traumatic experiences that seem to be part of 00:50:04.956 --> 00:50:05.697 the deal. 00:50:05.780 --> 00:50:11.511 So but also part of the deal is realizing later I am no longer a child. Yes, 00:50:11.594 --> 00:50:16.713 I can feel overwhelmed by the tension of this, whatever it might be, 00:50:16.796 --> 00:50:19.737 a battle or even just creative tension. 00:50:19.820 --> 00:50:24.671 But I don't have to be overwhelmed. I actually can recall living through things 00:50:24.755 --> 00:50:29.356 and things that I've learned. And so that's what I'm calling more maturity, 00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:33.500 not more responsibility in that kind of a Protestant ethical way. 00:50:33.830 --> 00:50:39.147 but a greater capacity to remain present when the circumstances become challenging. 00:50:39.230 --> 00:50:42.250 And then really realizing I'm not a child. 00:50:42.334 --> 00:50:45.723 I don't have to simply choose one or the other. 00:50:45.806 --> 00:50:48.910 And that creates the creative opportunity. 00:50:49.610 --> 00:50:55.610 Um, creativity is the only outcome of a conflict that is satisfying to the soul. 00:50:56.540 --> 00:51:00.369 Whether it's the inner conflicts we have or the outer conflicts we have, 00:51:00.452 --> 00:51:02.300 the issue is not winner and loser. 00:51:02.930 --> 00:51:04.330 you know, that we 00:51:04.940 --> 00:51:08.389 I worked with William Stafford, the American poet before he died. 00:51:08.472 --> 00:51:10.700 He was a great, great person, great poet. 00:51:10.970 --> 00:51:13.570 And he wrote a book called Every War Has Two Losers. 00:51:14.390 --> 00:51:18.290 And I think a new book could be written. Every war now has many, many losers. 00:51:18.980 --> 00:51:24.941 Um, and so, um, Lots, very often, even in situation of war, 00:51:25.024 --> 00:51:27.840 people can't hold attention any longer. 00:51:28.130 --> 00:51:32.550 And so then the only thing is to win or lose. But, 00:51:32.660 --> 00:51:36.420 Creative tension is there to create. 00:51:37.130 --> 00:51:38.230 A third thing. 00:51:39.020 --> 00:51:43.479 Like I live in America and we have two political parties and one is supposed 00:51:43.562 --> 00:51:46.886 to be Republican. The other is supposed to be Democratic. 00:51:46.969 --> 00:51:49.240 And the Republican is the upper class. 00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:52.107 They're supposed to be 00:51:52.190 --> 00:51:57.082 holding upper class elite ideas, but also principles. The other side, 00:51:57.165 --> 00:52:02.994 the Democrat is we the people. And they're supposed to be insisting that everybody 00:52:03.077 --> 00:52:06.250 has a place and everybody deserves a chance. 00:52:06.950 --> 00:52:11.707 And if those two sides were legitimate, if each side held to what its ethics are 00:52:11.790 --> 00:52:15.095 supposed to be, the answer wouldn't be winner and loser. 00:52:15.179 --> 00:52:19.815 The answer would be a third thing that neither side thought of until they held 00:52:19.898 --> 00:52:21.350 the tension long enough. 00:52:21.860 --> 00:52:25.782 And so that's my understanding of creative tension. And naturally, 00:52:25.866 --> 00:52:27.140 it happens inside us. 00:52:27.530 --> 00:52:32.810 I remember at the point where I was married and I had four children. 00:52:33.230 --> 00:52:37.630 And and yet I have also found that I'm a storyteller and a student of myth. 00:52:37.714 --> 00:52:41.755 And and I tried to make a living as a storyteller and it didn't work. 00:52:41.838 --> 00:52:46.179 You know, like the house is falling down and finally the family is saying, 00:52:46.262 --> 00:52:49.527 you know, it's entertaining, but it's not entertaining. 00:52:49.610 --> 00:52:53.223 providing what we need. So I had to go get a real job. 00:52:53.307 --> 00:52:58.974 And I made a deal with myself that I would do five years of work in the world that I 00:52:59.057 --> 00:53:04.519 don't want to do in order to put a roof on the house and get the kids who are now 00:53:04.603 --> 00:53:08.353 growing everything that they need. And after five years, 00:53:08.436 --> 00:53:10.490 I'm going back to the calling. 00:53:11.240 --> 00:53:15.900 And it kind of worked. But in the meantime, what happened was, 00:53:16.160 --> 00:53:21.900 Because I was tuned into this calling, which involved like inspiration from 00:53:21.984 --> 00:53:26.580 the muses, I started getting awakened at four o'clock in the morning, roughly, 00:53:26.663 --> 00:53:30.919 with deliveries from the muses saying, we can't get you later in the day because 00:53:31.002 --> 00:53:34.986 you've got the dumb job. We can't get you at night because you're so tired. 00:53:35.069 --> 00:53:38.999 So we're waking you up at four o'clock, which in ancient India they called 00:53:39.082 --> 00:53:43.971 the hour of God. And so and the first book I wrote, that's what it was. 00:53:44.054 --> 00:53:49.400 I would wake up at four o'clock and there would be a voice speaking paragraphs. 00:53:49.520 --> 00:53:54.095 And each night I would have a choice. Am I getting up to write them down or am I 00:53:54.178 --> 00:53:57.996 falling back to sleep? And sometimes I was so tired I had to sleep. 00:53:58.080 --> 00:54:02.189 But I also remember the attention. I'm literally getting deliveries from 00:54:02.272 --> 00:54:05.799 the muses and I hear my mother's voice saying, well, you know, 00:54:05.882 --> 00:54:08.943 you need eight hours of sleep. And I realized, oh, no, 00:54:09.027 --> 00:54:12.262 I better get up right now because that's not what I need. 00:54:12.346 --> 00:54:16.480 I need this vital source of creative energy coming from outside myself. 00:54:16.940 --> 00:54:23.220 And so in my own little version of trying to do this, I get deliveries. 00:54:23.780 --> 00:54:28.243 I call them deliveries and often four o'clock, 430 in the morning. 00:54:28.327 --> 00:54:30.600 But as I've paid attention to it. 00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:32.840 It can happen at any time, day or night. 00:54:33.620 --> 00:54:39.048 And I'm just saying that in order to illustrate the idea of a practice and 00:54:39.132 --> 00:54:42.260 a calling, opening a path that gets wider. 00:54:42.620 --> 00:54:48.460 And gives us the chance and the opportunity to become vessels. 00:54:48.650 --> 00:54:52.396 of energy that's trying to come into the world. You can call it spirit, 00:54:52.479 --> 00:54:56.427 you can call it creativity, call it soul. We can put a lot of names on it. 00:54:56.510 --> 00:54:59.804 But those energies that are the most creative, 00:54:59.887 --> 00:55:05.530 most medicinal and most soulful energies can only enter into the world through 00:55:05.614 --> 00:55:08.110 the people living at a given time. 00:55:08.540 --> 00:55:14.116 Mm-hmm. We are each potential agents of healing and recreation, 00:55:14.200 --> 00:55:18.761 and we each can find our own way to open the channel, 00:55:18.844 --> 00:55:24.194 to use a contemporary word, and then realize how this happens. 00:55:24.277 --> 00:55:28.740 I'll say one more thing. So when I tell stories. 00:55:29.030 --> 00:55:34.580 I've never rehearsed a story. And the story is never told the same way twice. 00:55:35.180 --> 00:55:40.030 And when I was starting out doing that, I would get criticized by the Folklore 00:55:40.114 --> 00:55:43.193 Society or somebody saying, you're not doing this. 00:55:43.276 --> 00:55:45.976 You're not doing the original version. Well, 00:55:46.059 --> 00:55:50.340 I know there is no original version, but also they just said version, 00:55:50.424 --> 00:55:53.250 implying that there was more than one version. 00:55:53.333 --> 00:55:57.867 So I had to claim this ground, which means that when I'm telling a story, 00:55:57.950 --> 00:56:00.860 it is trying to live through me in the moment. 00:56:05.180 --> 00:56:07.880 That story, I'm giving life to the story. 00:56:08.330 --> 00:56:11.865 which is giving life to me and the audience can feel it too. 00:56:11.949 --> 00:56:16.050 And so I'm just using that as an illustration, whatever the path is. 00:56:16.790 --> 00:56:20.630 The path can be almost anything, but when a person... 00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:26.665 allows themselves to be present to it, then knowledge becomes available that 00:56:26.748 --> 00:56:32.884 was otherwise unknown and capacities, including having more courage in the heart 00:56:32.968 --> 00:56:39.327 because I'm standing on ground. That means something and goes deeper than anything. 00:56:39.410 --> 00:56:40.610 on my feet. 00:56:41.210 --> 00:56:46.803 wow that's so beautiful lovely lovely lovely i like i love this what you said 00:56:46.887 --> 00:56:47.720 about the 00:56:48.350 --> 00:56:52.627 that the story comes through you because you are living in a body and the, 00:56:52.710 --> 00:56:57.164 and the information can come through you and live you and make you more alive 00:56:57.247 --> 00:57:01.819 at the same time and make it alive in you. This is a beautiful way to share it. 00:57:01.902 --> 00:57:06.061 And it also means it's true because I think in many mystical traditions, 00:57:06.144 --> 00:57:08.889 exactly what you said, the spirit comes through, 00:57:08.972 --> 00:57:13.603 but the people that are incarnated that are in a body that are living right now, 00:57:13.686 --> 00:57:14.570 this is needed. 00:57:18.350 --> 00:57:24.943 matter, like to the manifestation. And you put this beautifully. That's lovely. 00:57:25.027 --> 00:57:31.789 And I want to underline one thing that I think is such an important skill to have 00:57:31.872 --> 00:57:34.830 or to develop more and more is that 00:57:35.240 --> 00:57:40.860 as long as I can host tension of a conflict or the attention in myself, 00:57:41.510 --> 00:57:43.970 I do not externalize it as other. 00:57:45.020 --> 00:57:47.950 And in the moment I externalize it as other, 00:57:48.033 --> 00:57:53.017 I become part of the polarization of our world and I become part of a camp 00:57:53.101 --> 00:57:56.647 that then needs another camp to oppose its own voice. 00:57:56.730 --> 00:58:02.125 And I think this is such a powerful thing you just said about that this capacity 00:58:02.209 --> 00:58:06.660 to host attention and then allow it to become a creative process. 00:58:15.020 --> 00:58:17.680 and it's beautifully said. So thank you for this. 00:58:18.710 --> 00:58:21.934 Michael, I'm really enjoying this conversation. 00:58:22.018 --> 00:58:27.424 I'm enjoying the music of your words and the flow of how it flows through you. 00:58:27.507 --> 00:58:33.194 It's really beautiful. Is there anything else that is not specific to any question 00:58:33.278 --> 00:58:37.377 that you think it's great for us to hear before we wrap up? 00:58:37.460 --> 00:58:44.070 EQ Um... the somewhat famous Zen poet. 00:58:44.330 --> 00:58:50.783 who was also called the criminal poet because he broke so many rules, 00:58:50.866 --> 00:58:57.866 making him my favorite Zen poet. But he has a poem in which he says at the end, 00:58:58.640 --> 00:59:02.280 You can't help but be... who you are and where. 00:59:03.650 --> 00:59:06.930 And the first time I heard that, that hit me as real truth. 00:59:07.040 --> 00:59:10.317 And so we're talking about 00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:15.029 Calling, giftedness, courage in the heart, paths of heart. 00:59:15.112 --> 00:59:18.200 But we all have to start where we are. 00:59:18.290 --> 00:59:23.337 And when I read that, I realized, oh, there's permission in that and there's 00:59:23.420 --> 00:59:24.770 forgiveness in that. 00:59:25.910 --> 00:59:32.726 So we have to give ourselves to permission to be who we are in a limited condition 00:59:32.810 --> 00:59:39.121 in the given moment. And I think we have to forgive ourselves for who we are 00:59:39.204 --> 00:59:45.431 and where we are. Only then can we actually find the footprints of the path 00:59:45.515 --> 00:59:47.450 with heart. So because. 00:59:47.720 --> 00:59:53.461 It's such a hard time because the pressure in the world comes down on each individual 00:59:53.544 --> 00:59:58.737 in ways that are really unusual and it pushes everybody into their early life 00:59:58.820 --> 00:59:59.960 trauma. So, 01:00:00.720 --> 01:00:07.189 And people get caught there. We also have to have ideas. And this one works for me. 01:00:07.273 --> 01:00:12.220 You can't help but be who you are and where. And that's the. 01:00:12.870 --> 01:00:18.150 Starting place for the initiate. That's the starting place for the awakening soul. 01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:24.280 And so I try to say that to myself frequently because, you know. 01:00:24.750 --> 01:00:29.568 Anyway. Permission and forgiveness are necessary for finding the path. 01:00:29.651 --> 01:00:32.680 And that's one phrase that helps me keep finding it. 01:00:33.120 --> 01:00:36.960 I love it. I think this is a great way to... 01:00:37.110 --> 01:00:41.232 And on that note, and thank you so much, Michael. This is great. 01:00:41.316 --> 01:00:46.292 I really enjoyed this. It's so resonant. It's so deep. And so thank you very, 01:00:46.376 --> 01:00:51.352 very much. And I'm sure everybody's going to enjoy your wisdom and your flow. 01:00:51.436 --> 01:00:52.290 So thank you. 01:00:52.680 --> 01:00:57.703 Well, thank you for inviting me. And it is a conversation and I feel your presence 01:00:57.786 --> 01:01:01.460 and that allowed me to be more free. So thank you for that. 01:01:01.950 --> 01:01:03.510 Hmm. Thank you. 01:01:05.610 --> 01:01:09.355 Thanks for listening to Point of Relation with Thomas Hubel. 01:01:09.438 --> 01:01:14.077 Stay connected and get updates about new episodes by visiting our website, 01:01:14.160 --> 01:01:18.798 pointofrelationpodcast.com, and by subscribing to the Thomas Hubel YouTube 01:01:18.882 --> 01:01:23.520 channel. 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