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The collective of humanity can't
change at the collective level.

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It has to be individual souls that
then affect the collective change.

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Welcome to Point of Relation
with Thomas Hubel,

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a podcast that illuminates the path
to collective healing at the intersection

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of science and mysticism.
This is the Point of Relation.

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you

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Michael Mead, DHL,
is a renowned storyteller, author,

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and scholar of mythology,
anthropology, and psychology.

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He combines hypnotic storytelling,
street-savvy perceptiveness,

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and spellbinding interpretations
of ancient myths with a deep knowledge

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of cross-cultural rituals.

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diverse peoples.

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Welcome, Michael. I'm so happy to have
you here again with us and your wisdom.

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Great to be back with you, Thomas.

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Mm-hmm.

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I remember our last conversation
for our Collective Trauma Summit,

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and I still remember some of the...

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Some of the points we touched on, which
are partly similar to what I think it

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would be great to cover
this seminar, partly different.

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So how do we go through this time?

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on the planet and this time in our
societies we all know that there is a lot

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of uncertainty there are a lot of change
processes happening and what what's

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the courage that we need and so we maybe
we'll start with your life as an example

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and then we look a bit at the overarching
picture and what what you see we need

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to learn in order to be prepared
to go through this time in a better way

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Let's start with You, like your soul
and you seem to be on your path.

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You did most probably many things in your
life that your soul's calling for and you

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embody those. And so maybe you can share
a little bit about your own path and also

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about the courage that it needed to.

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maybe in your life at certain times
to make decisions that weren't so easy,

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but helped you to unfold your
soul's potential in this world.

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Whatever comes up when I ask you this.

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Well, it's a good question. And of course,
Courage comes from la cour, the heart.

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So it's really about paths of the heart.
And can we find the path our heart would

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have us taken away? And part of what
happens to me every time war occurs on

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a big scale is I have my own PTSD.
Because when I was young, 19,

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I got drafted to go to the Vietnam War.

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And and I didn't believe in that war.
And but I was 19 and I wasn't sure.

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And my family expected me to go. Everyone
in my neighborhood thought I should go.

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But I didn't feel that I could. So I sent
a letter back to the draft board saying,

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you know, this is not a declared war.
It's not a wise war.

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It's it's a damaging war. It makes no
sense. And so I'm not going to come.

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But if you have another war, let me know.

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And I thought I was being very courteous.
And well, the next thing,

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the people are knocking on the door and
saying you either go now down to the draft

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center or you go to jail.

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So I went to the draft center and and and
so there's there's a question of courage

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there. Can I take this stand
and keep this stand? You know,

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even though everyone around
me doesn't agree with me,

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something is my soul and my soul
is saying I can't do this.

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This would be a loss of soul for me.

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So they offer me to be a I forget
what they call it, but a non, you know,

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non combatant person.
I'm against it. I'm a you know,

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and I can sign this thing and they'll
let me do it. But I read it.

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And I can't agree with it.
It says that I've never been violent.

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I grew up in a rough neighborhood.
People know that I can be violent.

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If my family gets attacked,
I will be violent. I can't sign that.

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And there's a bunch of other stuff
in there I can't sign. So I said, no,

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I can't be a conscientious
objector in your terms.

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My conscience is objecting,
but not the way you want me to say it.

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So now I'm deeper into it. Anyway,
because the story goes on and on.

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And I'm trying to hold my ground
and then I actually don't hold it.

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because they're back to the idea
it's jail or go into the army.

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And I talked to my uncles
and my father and,

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My mother really disappoints me.
I tell her what I feel, and she says,

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our sons always go.

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And I said, wow, that's not even specific.
You're not even looking at me.

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So I wind up going in.

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And I go through basic training.
I go through jungle training.

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And all of the time I'm thinking, God,
it's not just that I won't kill someone,

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that I might die. It's that I
might kill someone for no reason.

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And that feels to me like
a fate worse than death.

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And I'm still trying to figure
it out when they have a...

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They bring the whole company together and
they're given a kind of a teaching on what

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it's going to be like when you
go into the jungle and everything.

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And the officer who's giving it says,
and so if there's a hill and you're told

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to take that hill, you do that.
Soldier, you do that.

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And I just raised my hand.
I said, I might not do that.

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You know, if you tell me to go
somewhere simply to die, I won't do it.

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And they go ballistic.

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They just, you know, how can you
do that in front of everybody?

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And so now I'm in jail. I'm in jail.

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And then in the military prison,
I was a bad prisoner.

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Because now I realize I
cannot follow these orders.

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It goes against my heart and my soul.
This is now settled. It's a little late,

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but it's settled. And so then I'm a bad
prisoner because I won't follow orders

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now. So they put me
in solitary confinement.

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And so I am in solitary
confinement for months.

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And in the course of that, I realized
this is this is it. This is complete.

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Take a stance or don't take a stance.
So I stop eating. I go on a hunger strike.

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And I went into that military situation
about 155 pounds. I came out 87 pounds.

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I was skin and mold.

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But I got out.
They actually was Robert Kennedy,

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who was at the time the state
senator from New York.

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Someone got his attention
and he called in there and said,

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if you don't release him in 48 hours,
I'm coming down to get him out myself.

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So he got me out of there. I never
knew what happened or how that occurred.

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but The courage part was for me is I
had to take that stance and I had to keep

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that stance. And I almost died several
times from the starvation part of it.

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And that almost didn't matter.
Once I connected to my heart in that sense

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of courage from the heart, that was it.
I was committed totally and completely.

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And so I come out of there
a different person.

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I came out of there understanding
something about courage and something

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about life and death.

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If. And I'll say one more thing
about it having to do with paths.

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So I had always been interested in
mythology since I was like 13 years old.

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And in there, I'm in solitary.
I have no writing equipment.

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I have no books, nothing, just me,
concrete floor, metal bars and so on.

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And so, you know, you can
go a little crazy in there.

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What happens is I start having visitors.

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And they're not actual visitors.
No one else can see them.

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But they're characters from myth like
Odysseus and all the coming like to help

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me out and to give me courage.

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And so then I remember
the day I had to say,

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I'm either losing my mind
or I'm finding my mind.

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And I realized this is my mind.
This is my path. This is my way.

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So I come out of there knowing that I was
deeply connected with myth and that I had

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to realize that my own mind.

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Something in me was intense
and could not be rejected, dismissed,

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neglected or repressed. And of course,
I come out of there with all kinds of PTSD

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and I didn't fit into the culture
and I was a lost soul for a while.

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But that... But I think I found courage.

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And I had the idea of...
I won't fight in that war.

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But I didn't have the courage to take the
stand until I found myself in really fully

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in there.

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Amen.

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And so I've been on in a sense, I've been
on the path of mythology ever since on it,

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then off it, you know, raising children,
having to do something else,

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all that kind of stuff. But I found
something about my own heart and my own

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soul. Wow, that sounds really powerful.
I didn't know that. It's really powerful,

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Michael. And also that you took a stance
for peace and that what you couldn't do

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ethically, this is very powerful.
Also, that you just didn't sign a document

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that says, listen, I'm not violent,
I never was, and it's not true.

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Because that would have been the easy
way out, but you didn't do that.

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That's really powerful.

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Yeah, they used to wake me up when I was,
you know, fasting for a long time.

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They used to force feed me, too.
That's what kept me alive.

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But they would wake me up
in the middle of the night and say,

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we can't find your vital signs.

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do you really want to die for this?
And I said, no, I don't want to die.

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I just won't live the way
you're telling me I have to live.

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It's not me wanting to die.

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Something in me cannot live that way.
And they just couldn't understand it,

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you know. Yeah, it sounds also like
something bigger in you appeared there

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and pulled you through this time. So
that's amazing. That's remarkable. And so…

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If you look at this phase of your life,

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And then you see like a fast forward
of the trajectory of your life.

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How do you feel this kind of book?
It sounds to me like an initiation,

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like how this initiative
or initiatory phase works.

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affected the rest of your life

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If you look a bit at what, how does this,
how did this affect everything that came

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after?

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Well, part of it was I knew there
was this thing in myself that...

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cannot be simply questioned.
If I start to feel

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I connected it to a sense of authenticity.

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Um, And... And coming with... Inner
authenticity comes a sense of authority.

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Not, you know,
I was against the authorities,

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but there was a lot of authority in me.
As people used to say,

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you defeated the whole army. You didn't
go to the war, but you defeated the army.

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And in a way I did, they didn't
want to let me out of there.

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because they were afraid the other...

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And draftees would go, oh, I'm going
to do that, too. But in the meantime,

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I had found something out about the depth
of the soul and and the courage in

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the heart and something
about an inner authority.

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Because I'll tell you another strange
thing. So I'm in this solitary cell.

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Not only have I stopped eating food,
I've thrown out the mattress,

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the blankets and all of the clothing.

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Because... I tried to argue with them and
say, "You don't realize I'm already gone.

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I'm not here."

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This is over for me. I'm gone. You're
just kind of technically holding me back.

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And I, you know, this is a very
intense thing. And so anyway,

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I'm sitting in the cell now naked.
I'm 20 years old.

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And what happened is the officers were.

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would come in one at a time.

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At night, off duty, they would come to the
cell and they would all enter the same way

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and say, soldier,
you stand up when I come in.

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I was just sitting there
like naked in the cell saying,

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I don't think I'm standing up.

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I mean, I don't even I don't think you
have a real authority here in this little

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cell. So they give that up. And then
what would they do? They would confess.

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I was hearing confession.

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Every night.

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They knew like this is the one person
they could tell the truth to in inside of

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the army.

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And they're confessing, I beat my wife,
I drink to get over all the anxiety.

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They're all confessing to me
right up to the general point.

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in that area. And so

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This is a whole other part of me that I
realized because I was raised Catholic,

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so I understand the confession thing,
but I never thought I would be hearing

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confession.

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And so how does that play
out later? So, yeah.

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You know, not that many years later, I
start working with severely at risk youth.

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gang kids and homeless kids,
because I relate to them.

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And and what I wound up doing
with them was hearing confession.

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It would be the same kind
of thing once they realized that.

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It's like if you find a good therapist.

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The good therapist is good because their
self is present and it allows yourself

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to be present. And I wound up
like doing that with gang kids.

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And then I and then I started working
in prisons. Oh, that's interesting.

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So being so far out of the culture,
the way I was in the solitary cell.

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And when I came back, I didn't fit in.

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I wasn't a veteran of the war per se.

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You know, I was also kind
of crazy and had PTSD.

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So I understood living on the
margins and so on. And so...

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I didn't realize until
just now I'm saying it.

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That whether it's people in prison
or refugees that I've worked with or kids

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at risk, they all everyone needs
to confess. And I've heard many,

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many confessions.
And so something shifts inside a person.

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And I don't I consider
myself a recovering Catholic,

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but I never thought I would
be giving like blessings.

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Not because I think I'm
special or something,

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but because the person needs it so much.

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that if you're the one there,
then give them the blessing.

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And one of the problems in the modern
world is most people are not blessed

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for who they are. Young people are told
you have to make something of yourself.

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I tell young people you already are
something and that something is unique.

217
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And we need to make that conscious and
bring it present because that will show

218
00:14:57,352 --> 00:15:03,668
you where to go in life. So anyway,
I just learned that in talking with you,

219
00:15:03,752 --> 00:15:10,228
that I actually part of this heart life
death experience was realizing I had

220
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to hear confessions.
I actually had to bless those generals.

221
00:15:16,030 --> 00:15:19,374
And those colonels, it was kind
of crazy. But I, you know,

222
00:15:19,458 --> 00:15:22,329
they were holding me in there,
wouldn't let me go.

223
00:15:22,412 --> 00:15:26,490
But they were also coming in asking
for kind of forgiveness in a way.

224
00:15:26,590 --> 00:15:29,878
And I was at the point I notice
I'm doing this in my hands.

225
00:15:29,961 --> 00:15:34,450
I was like in this in this almost like
Jesus position or something where I would

226
00:15:34,533 --> 00:15:39,021
have to say, OK, you know, you're forgiven
for beating your wife. But, you know,

227
00:15:39,104 --> 00:15:41,707
the problem isn't simply
that you did beat her.

228
00:15:41,790 --> 00:15:45,821
The problem is you're going to do it
again. So you can be forgiven. But,

229
00:15:45,904 --> 00:15:50,335
you know, you have to do something about
what in you is causing you to take out

230
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your life.

231
00:15:51,220 --> 00:15:56,252
whatever inner violence conflict on you.
You know, I was a psychologist too,

232
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all of a sudden. Anyway,
that was life-changing. Yeah,

233
00:15:59,971 --> 00:16:05,474
that's really amazing. I mean, it's such
a strong life story that you're telling us

234
00:16:05,558 --> 00:16:06,437
here in the...

235
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,773
First of all, I want to say, like,
it feels to me like as if, like,

236
00:16:10,857 --> 00:16:15,886
through this intensity of this experience,
of course, it was also traumatizing.

237
00:16:15,970 --> 00:16:20,870
But it also has for me feels like it
has an initiatory quality for your life.

238
00:16:20,953 --> 00:16:25,983
And it has a reason why people came to you
into this cell and and kind of spoke

239
00:16:26,067 --> 00:16:28,787
to you about their life. Um,

240
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:33,910
And so I don't, yeah, so this is really
powerful and interesting. And, um,

241
00:16:34,270 --> 00:16:36,730
And also the...

242
00:16:36,820 --> 00:16:42,464
that something in you also became a remedy
through that process for other people

243
00:16:42,547 --> 00:16:46,616
that you worked with in prisons
and refugees, as you said,

244
00:16:46,699 --> 00:16:50,911
and youth at risk.
So that something grew in you as a power.

245
00:16:50,994 --> 00:16:56,495
And I think also that the whole, like,
initiatory process plus the trauma kind

246
00:16:56,578 --> 00:17:00,289
of recovery creates, like,
an active substance. Like,

247
00:17:00,372 --> 00:17:05,872
we become a remedy through our own path.
And that's also a bit what our course

248
00:17:05,956 --> 00:17:06,737
is about.

249
00:17:06,820 --> 00:17:13,008
how can we turn even the things that are
hard in our life into like a remedy also

250
00:17:13,092 --> 00:17:19,125
for us and for others. And so I'm curious
just because of like now that I heard

251
00:17:19,209 --> 00:17:23,080
your story so much deeper,
like I'm curious about,

252
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:29,580
the visitations. So if myth was so...

253
00:17:30,550 --> 00:17:34,649
like so much connect or is so
much connected to your soul as it,

254
00:17:34,732 --> 00:17:39,500
as your life turns out anyway,
later also, but like, How...

255
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:46,260
How did that help you or support you
in this situation when you were so...

256
00:17:46,690 --> 00:17:52,670
deep in your prison cell and also
in the fasting, when you had that, like...

257
00:17:52,780 --> 00:17:58,100
Can you share a little bit how that helped
you in this moment? Like how did that...

258
00:17:59,110 --> 00:18:00,910
show up in you and help you

259
00:18:02,830 --> 00:18:07,806
I first found myth on my 13th birthday
when my aunt intended to give me a history

260
00:18:07,889 --> 00:18:12,615
book, but it was a mythology book.
And she saw that when I tore the cover up,

261
00:18:12,698 --> 00:18:17,570
it was wrong and she wanted to take it
back and we're fighting over this book.

262
00:18:17,980 --> 00:18:21,840
And something in me knew I had
to have this book. It was the right,

263
00:18:21,924 --> 00:18:24,430
wrong book. It was a gift.
I had to take it.

264
00:18:24,514 --> 00:18:27,280
It was like a life
changing moment right there.

265
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,977
And when I read most of that book
that night and when I was reading it,

266
00:18:32,060 --> 00:18:35,215
I realized, oh,
this is the story that we're living.

267
00:18:35,298 --> 00:18:39,635
Like I was stunned by the idea
of the sisters of fate and that everyone

268
00:18:39,718 --> 00:18:44,740
that comes into the world, you know, they
give you your thread of fate and destiny

269
00:18:44,824 --> 00:18:49,161
and then they make it specific for you.
And then there's a limit to it.

270
00:18:49,244 --> 00:18:53,768
And I thought, that's everybody I know.
And everybody has a thread of fate

271
00:18:53,852 --> 00:18:56,840
and people don't know it.
I was stunned by that.

272
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,240
And I was in a little
neighborhood gang at the time.

273
00:19:00,370 --> 00:19:04,012
And then I'm reading about,
you know, Jason and the Golden Fleece,

274
00:19:04,096 --> 00:19:06,722
and they're all going
to find the Golden Fleece,

275
00:19:06,805 --> 00:19:11,238
which is not golden like treasure. The
Golden Fleece was the symbol for justice.

276
00:19:11,321 --> 00:19:13,778
And I'm realizing, oh,
even our gang, really,

277
00:19:13,861 --> 00:19:18,068
we're looking for something bigger than
ourselves. We don't know what it is.

278
00:19:18,151 --> 00:19:22,527
So I used to tell, like, my friends,
you know, we're Jason and the Golden. And,

279
00:19:22,611 --> 00:19:24,530
you know, that didn't work. Right.

280
00:19:30,370 --> 00:19:33,510
and Opening and I could
not share it with anybody.

281
00:19:33,593 --> 00:19:36,790
I could not find anyone
to share it with. Not teachers,

282
00:19:36,873 --> 00:19:39,772
certainly not my parents,
not my aunts and uncles.

283
00:19:39,855 --> 00:19:44,721
So it was weird because I had this thing.
So but you mentioned the rite of passage.

284
00:19:44,805 --> 00:19:49,492
So I get out of that whole thing. And now
I'm like 21 years old and I don't fit.

285
00:19:49,576 --> 00:19:54,442
I'm exactly like a battle veteran in that
I can't get back into the society because

286
00:19:54,525 --> 00:19:57,030
I have felt and experienced another level.

287
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:58,580
of both life and death.

288
00:19:59,220 --> 00:19:59,937
Some of you are about

289
00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:05,187
better. And so what am I going to do?
And I didn't even know what psychology was

290
00:20:05,270 --> 00:20:10,473
and no one in my family would ever go to
therapy because that meant you were crazy.

291
00:20:10,556 --> 00:20:11,817
And of course, yeah,

292
00:20:11,900 --> 00:20:16,077
they're all crazy, but we're not
going to share it with anyone. Anyway,

293
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:17,337
so I started studying

294
00:20:17,420 --> 00:20:22,155
rites of passage because I remembered
something I had read that said that in

295
00:20:22,239 --> 00:20:23,380
a rite of passage,

296
00:20:23,580 --> 00:20:27,957
you separate and then you kind of die
and then you come back as another person.

297
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:33,780
And since I had almost died several times,
so I began to study rites of passage.

298
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,540
And and that really helped me.

299
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:42,308
That helped me understand that I was in an
unfinished rite of passage and why that's

300
00:20:42,391 --> 00:20:47,940
important now. I think we are collectively
humanity in a rite of passage.

301
00:20:48,620 --> 00:20:51,560
And we've already separated
from the world that we had.

302
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,740
And there's many, many places around
the world that can testify immediately.

303
00:20:56,620 --> 00:20:59,020
And in a rite of passage,
there's no going back.

304
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,257
And that was part of my problem.

305
00:21:01,340 --> 00:21:03,957
I couldn't go back.
My family didn't understand who I was.

306
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,040
I couldn't live in the neighborhood
because they misunderstood who I was.

307
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,860
And I couldn't go back. So I had
to go forward in some other way.

308
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,780
So I think we're in that now.

309
00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:20,179
We're in the middle phase of a rite of
passage where we've already lost the world

310
00:21:20,262 --> 00:21:23,357
we thought we had, but we
haven't found the next world yet.

311
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:28,181
and in rites of passage they call that
liminal we're in the liminal space betwixt

312
00:21:28,265 --> 00:21:28,837
and between

313
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:35,920
now that also turns out to be the exact
space of creativity the the artist the you

314
00:21:36,422 --> 00:21:37,437
know whoever

315
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,113
is making something if it's a genuine
creative process in the middle of it

316
00:21:42,196 --> 00:21:43,377
the doubts will come

317
00:21:43,460 --> 00:21:48,296
the uncertainty the model doesn't work
all kinds of things will happen and then

318
00:21:48,379 --> 00:21:54,302
this the psyche is the liminal space,
which is the space of upset, uncertainty,

319
00:21:54,386 --> 00:21:57,397
serious doubt, confusion and conflict.

320
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,358
But it's also the space where
the images come in and the ideas come in

321
00:22:02,441 --> 00:22:04,000
and inspiration comes.

322
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:10,610
And and so so we are I think we're in that
now collectively and that what's trying

323
00:22:10,693 --> 00:22:17,287
to happen is a transformation of humanity,
because as we stand mostly now,

324
00:22:17,370 --> 00:22:19,077
generally speaking,

325
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:26,160
we have lost the deepest values the most
deepest qualities of being humane to each

326
00:22:26,491 --> 00:22:33,491
other And it going to continue for a while
because the the forces and powers that be

327
00:22:34,001 --> 00:22:40,087
are seeing it all as literal wartime
conflict as if that can solve it

328
00:22:40,170 --> 00:22:45,325
when all evidence is that just causes
it to deepen and continue so and it's in

329
00:22:45,408 --> 00:22:46,467
the midst of this

330
00:22:46,550 --> 00:22:51,696
tearing apart of the world and this
shattering of uh institutions which can't

331
00:22:51,780 --> 00:22:52,987
keep up with what's

332
00:22:53,070 --> 00:23:00,070
going on and this kind of deep disturbance
to the soul of humanity that we have

333
00:23:00,419 --> 00:23:00,987
to find

334
00:23:01,070 --> 00:23:07,602
the threads of imagination and the threads
of healing and whatever we need to do

335
00:23:07,686 --> 00:23:08,347
to remake

336
00:23:08,430 --> 00:23:15,232
humanity based on the deepest values
of the soul rather than on the collective

337
00:23:15,316 --> 00:23:17,510
values of nationalities and so on.

338
00:23:17,970 --> 00:23:22,310
That's how it seems to me. And we are
now all in that space, like it or not.

339
00:23:23,070 --> 00:23:25,670
And from a mythological
point of view, it can't end.

340
00:23:26,150 --> 00:23:29,290
In mythological terms,
the world ends and it begins again.

341
00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:30,680
It's happened many times.

342
00:23:31,350 --> 00:23:36,130
Myth is about, I mean, the premier
moments in myth are beginning and end.

343
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:38,660
And so mythically, the world continues.

344
00:23:38,890 --> 00:23:45,890
I think the issue is how long we spend in
the liminal betwixt and between conflict

345
00:23:47,607 --> 00:23:50,967
condition. That's the issue.
There's a way out.

346
00:23:51,050 --> 00:23:56,452
Humanity has gone through this before. Not
exactly the same because we have nature

347
00:23:56,535 --> 00:23:59,010
unraveling while culture is rattling.

348
00:23:59,910 --> 00:24:04,763
You know, that's unusual. But. I think
what I learned in that prison cell,

349
00:24:04,846 --> 00:24:10,366
in a way, was there something deeper than
what I call me that knows me better than I

350
00:24:10,450 --> 00:24:13,230
know myself. and it knows why I'm here.

351
00:24:14,090 --> 00:24:21,090
For myself, I'm actually closer to being
carrying medicine for other people as well

352
00:24:21,470 --> 00:24:23,310
or helping them find their medicine.

353
00:24:23,450 --> 00:24:25,950
Maybe that's what I'm
trying to do to some degree.

354
00:24:26,170 --> 00:24:31,107
But I think you hit on something
because I come out of that situation

355
00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:34,290
totally in liminal space.

356
00:24:34,770 --> 00:24:38,687
I was literally between
and I knew I couldn't go back.

357
00:24:38,770 --> 00:24:42,193
I had to leave New York where I had grown
up and everything because I couldn't find

358
00:24:42,277 --> 00:24:42,447
myself

359
00:24:42,530 --> 00:24:46,810
there because it was a deeper version
of myself that I was trying to find.

360
00:24:47,310 --> 00:24:50,610
And now I feel like that seems
to be what we're all going through.

361
00:24:51,450 --> 00:24:53,027
Wow, that's so beautiful, Michael.

362
00:24:53,110 --> 00:24:53,943
So many things.

363
00:24:55,070 --> 00:24:59,992
So many things I wanted to capture
and underline But I want to underline two

364
00:25:00,076 --> 00:25:05,393
things Like I think that exactly on the
one hand what you just said is exactly why

365
00:25:05,477 --> 00:25:10,662
we came here together to have this course
exactly for this phase of this liminal

366
00:25:10,746 --> 00:25:15,866
collective phase that we are in So that
beautiful And you framed it in your own

367
00:25:15,949 --> 00:25:18,237
way And I completely agree with this

368
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:24,360
And I'm so happy you're expressing
this so eloquently in your own way.

369
00:25:25,180 --> 00:25:31,189
And I loved when you said, like, I met
something in the prison that knows me

370
00:25:31,272 --> 00:25:35,117
deeper than I know myself,
like a deeper knowing.

371
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:41,897
and I think this is a very
powerful that's a very powerful

372
00:25:41,980 --> 00:25:46,877
statement also to make like that
there is a deeper creative force

373
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,617
or whatever however we call it or a deeper
soul or whatever it is in our language

374
00:25:51,700 --> 00:25:57,137
like that is deeper than this
time the movement of the time

375
00:25:57,220 --> 00:26:02,617
and I think that's a very
powerful thing to say

376
00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:04,337
and you're not only saying it

377
00:26:04,420 --> 00:26:06,577
You're transmitting it
through your own experience.

378
00:26:06,660 --> 00:26:09,761
And also it's great
for all of us to feel, wow,

379
00:26:09,844 --> 00:26:14,842
there is something deeper than how
to make up the architecture of the time,

380
00:26:14,926 --> 00:26:17,500
the structures of this time look like.

381
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,700
Yeah. It's very powerful.

382
00:26:21,580 --> 00:26:27,851
In this, and I love also what you
said about the one world is gone,

383
00:26:27,935 --> 00:26:33,637
the other one didn't arrive,
and we're in this liminal space.

384
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:40,720
So if we stay there for a moment, what did
you learn over the course of your life?

385
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:48,480
What are the qualities we develop, we have
to develop, we might develop, whatever, in

386
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,380
these liminal spaces that are supportive?

387
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,680
Is there at all something we can develop?

388
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,857
Because maybe it's just
about being in this time.

389
00:27:00,940 --> 00:27:04,325
So maybe you share
with us a little bit, like,

390
00:27:04,409 --> 00:27:09,981
what and what do myths say about
the development that happens in this space

391
00:27:10,064 --> 00:27:11,120
of creativity?

392
00:27:12,020 --> 00:27:18,000
So the first thing I think of is
Carl Jung's idea of the deep self.

393
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,400
Some people call it the soul.
In mythology, it would be soul.

394
00:27:22,540 --> 00:27:24,777
In psychology, it tends to be self.

395
00:27:24,860 --> 00:27:31,312
And so the majority of people near as I
can tell do not know they have a deeper

396
00:27:31,395 --> 00:27:35,200
self that knows who they
are and why they here

397
00:27:35,420 --> 00:27:39,920
In mythological terms, each soul
that comes into the world is unique,

398
00:27:40,003 --> 00:27:44,503
but it has its gifts and its own
medicine, inner medicine and wisdom,

399
00:27:44,587 --> 00:27:48,600
if we want to call it that. And each
soul is aimed at something meaningful.

400
00:27:49,380 --> 00:27:50,977
That whole idea has been lost.

401
00:27:51,060 --> 00:27:56,257
people now think of the blank soul
the tabula rasa the soul entered the world

402
00:27:56,340 --> 00:27:57,217
blank and then

403
00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:01,222
your family writes on you and the
neighborhood writes on you and you become

404
00:28:01,305 --> 00:28:02,077
the sum total of

405
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,781
things that have affected you from the
outside but the idea of the deep soul

406
00:28:06,864 --> 00:28:07,957
or the deep self is

407
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:13,986
it's already there inside deep
characteristics that are essentially noble

408
00:28:14,069 --> 00:28:19,596
in everybody I mean, that's that's how I
have to think about it, because, you know,

409
00:28:19,679 --> 00:28:24,760
otherwise I'm judging people better
or worse without knowing their deep soul.

410
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,660
So so there's that. And you got that idea
of the deep self during World War Two.

411
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,257
He looked at World War Two, which was a
tearing apart of the world at that time.

412
00:28:35,340 --> 00:28:39,397
And he said, what can happen
here that changes this?

413
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,377
Because he saw the horror
of what was happening.

414
00:28:41,460 --> 00:28:47,800
and he had been studying Asian mythology
when he got the idea of the deep self,

415
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,420
which is really profoundly
present in Asian mythology.

416
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,240
And so he kind of brought that
to the Western world in a way.

417
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,160
It's a really powerful image for me.

418
00:28:58,940 --> 00:29:02,837
So in the midst of the liminal
betwixt and between,

419
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,897
when it feels like everything
could be torn apart,

420
00:29:04,980 --> 00:29:08,320
fall apart, all could come to an end,
that's at a certain level.

421
00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:10,857
And below that is the deep self.

422
00:29:10,940 --> 00:29:16,395
And the deep self is bringing all
the gifts of the psyche uniquely arranged

423
00:29:16,478 --> 00:29:17,660
for each person.

424
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:24,546
But the deep self also, because it's
an archetypal deep sense of self,

425
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:28,660
is connected to both
the past and the future.

426
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:34,410
So from the deep self, if you can
stand the liminal enough to get in touch

427
00:29:34,493 --> 00:29:38,577
with the deep self, something
happens that is really profound.

428
00:29:38,660 --> 00:29:44,120
And to me, you can see it from
misunderstanding of the word prophecy.

429
00:29:45,340 --> 00:29:48,400
Most people think prophecy
means predicting the future.

430
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:50,590
That's not what the word means.

431
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:57,598
Prophecy means to be standing so deep in
the river of time that ideas from the past

432
00:29:57,681 --> 00:29:59,917
that have been lost can't be.

433
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,518
flow to you and images of the future
that have not yet been seen can also flow

434
00:30:05,601 --> 00:30:10,760
to you. And an awakening can occur
in the depth of the self in the center

435
00:30:10,843 --> 00:30:15,571
that brings the ancient past
and the mostly unseen future together.

436
00:30:15,654 --> 00:30:19,460
And that's a capacity of each
person's self and soul.

437
00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:24,367
So that's. one way or two
look at it, because...

438
00:30:24,450 --> 00:30:27,070
To me... We've lost something.

439
00:30:27,630 --> 00:30:29,167
We've lost.

440
00:30:29,250 --> 00:30:33,319
We've lost a soul connection. You can't go
about wanting to kill other people unless

441
00:30:33,402 --> 00:30:34,502
you've lost your soul.

442
00:30:35,070 --> 00:30:39,000
You know, a person in touch with
their own self and soul cannot do that.

443
00:30:39,083 --> 00:30:41,954
They might have to do it
under great, great pressure,

444
00:30:42,037 --> 00:30:44,351
but they're not willingly
going to do that.

445
00:30:44,434 --> 00:30:47,890
And so we've lost something
of this deep self and soul. But...

446
00:30:48,060 --> 00:30:50,400
in a sense, is trying to come back.

447
00:30:50,850 --> 00:30:54,760
And just as when an individual
has a crisis in their life,

448
00:30:54,844 --> 00:30:59,925
it's in that crisis that they become
a bigger soul or else become a smaller

449
00:31:00,008 --> 00:31:00,841
person.

450
00:31:01,050 --> 00:31:06,456
And humanity is now in that crisis. We're
either going to awaken to a greater sense

451
00:31:06,539 --> 00:31:09,763
of soul and self, which
is going to bring courage,

452
00:31:09,846 --> 00:31:12,637
an unusual kind
of courage and imagination.

453
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,981
Or we're going to stay stuck
because we didn't manage.

454
00:31:16,064 --> 00:31:19,780
And then people's lives might
get smaller and smaller until.

455
00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:23,470
another critical moment occurs.
I'm not sure about that.

456
00:31:23,610 --> 00:31:28,941
But I love the idea that we're in
prophetic times if we understand prophecy

457
00:31:29,024 --> 00:31:34,499
as ancient things trying to catch up
to us and unseen things trying to reveal

458
00:31:34,583 --> 00:31:35,810
themselves to us.

459
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:42,437
Wow, that's very beautiful. So what I hear
you say is also that this is a time where

460
00:31:42,521 --> 00:31:47,560
it's not about – how much we can hold
on to what we know about the world,

461
00:31:47,644 --> 00:31:52,118
but it's a time where that allows
us because we are less identified,

462
00:31:52,201 --> 00:31:55,670
maybe with all the structures
that are falling apart,

463
00:31:55,754 --> 00:31:58,770
even if that's a painful
process to re-enact,

464
00:31:59,370 --> 00:32:06,370
to become a member again of a deeper soul
stream that then infuses fresh information

465
00:32:07,357 --> 00:32:10,210
from ancient and future times.

466
00:32:10,830 --> 00:32:16,120
Yeah, because Jung also had the idea
of he gave it different names,

467
00:32:16,203 --> 00:32:19,649
but I think he was a
prophet in his own way,

468
00:32:19,732 --> 00:32:25,503
in the sense that he was bringing
ancient knowledge and wisdom to bear in

469
00:32:25,587 --> 00:32:28,872
the present moment. And so in his own way,

470
00:32:28,955 --> 00:32:34,890
he would refer to the soul as being
this timeless agent of humanity. Yeah.

471
00:32:35,340 --> 00:32:38,694
that goes all the way
back to the beginning.

472
00:32:38,778 --> 00:32:42,840
And then the idea is that
in terms of remembering...

473
00:32:43,170 --> 00:32:46,267
When you take the idea
of the archetypal...

474
00:32:46,350 --> 00:32:47,550
level of soul.

475
00:32:48,690 --> 00:32:51,210
Memory goes all the way
down and all the way back.

476
00:32:51,450 --> 00:32:54,490
And if we can allow it,

477
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,921
In the precise time when the institutions
cannot deal with the rapidity of change

478
00:33:00,004 --> 00:33:02,917
and the dramatic extremes
that are going on.

479
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:09,073
At that exact moment, that's when the deep
memory or the deep well of memory can come

480
00:33:09,156 --> 00:33:15,194
up through people. And and I don't
mean to be Pollyanna about it. You know,

481
00:33:15,277 --> 00:33:21,144
I've we're going to suffer for a while
and the agony of being alive right now

482
00:33:21,227 --> 00:33:24,550
is genuine.
But there's also evidence that.

483
00:33:24,660 --> 00:33:27,260
groups have gone through this before.

484
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:31,260
In India, they call it
fording the river of time.

485
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:34,640
that you come to a place where
you have to cross the river.

486
00:33:35,340 --> 00:33:40,406
And why cross the river? Because on the
other side is all the things that we lost,

487
00:33:40,489 --> 00:33:43,671
the great imagination,
the courage that people lack,

488
00:33:43,755 --> 00:33:47,879
the images and the stories and the
wisdom that is not. It's nearby,

489
00:33:47,962 --> 00:33:50,516
but we have to cross a river to get to it.

490
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,101
And then some spiritual groups take
on take a hold of that. And they say,

491
00:33:55,184 --> 00:33:58,554
once you get those things,
you don't come back. But no,

492
00:33:58,638 --> 00:34:02,280
there's another way to see it.
I call it Bodhisattva time.

493
00:34:02,610 --> 00:34:04,530
Because the Bodhisattva in that

494
00:34:04,770 --> 00:34:09,739
In terms of that spiritual tradition is
the one who becomes enlightened and aware

495
00:34:09,823 --> 00:34:14,231
and more knowledgeable and more
centered and grounded and then goes, oh,

496
00:34:14,314 --> 00:34:18,930
I better go back and help everybody
else because they they need this, too.

497
00:34:19,110 --> 00:34:22,961
And so sometimes I think
we're in Bodhisattva time.

498
00:34:23,044 --> 00:34:26,130
Whatever we can learn, we have to not...

499
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:31,117
take for ourselves, we actually have to
find a way to distribute it like medicine.

500
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,100
Yeah, I love this deep well-duty.

501
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,993
and how we deepen, how we deepen
this, like how we touch this,

502
00:34:39,076 --> 00:34:43,397
this groundwater that is,
seems like out of reach. What,

503
00:34:43,481 --> 00:34:47,020
what do you feel like if,
if you said before,

504
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:50,510
will be lost touch with the soul.

505
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:56,110
Mm. How does one lose touch
with something that's so intimate?

506
00:34:56,940 --> 00:35:01,434
Well, by denying and repressing
and suppressing it.

507
00:35:01,517 --> 00:35:07,620
So I'm using soul as the old term
for the connective tissue of life.

508
00:35:08,010 --> 00:35:13,540
Spirit is a wonderful thing,
and spirit wants to ascend.

509
00:35:14,340 --> 00:35:18,667
And also get to the place of oneness.
Usually we call it spirit nut.

510
00:35:18,750 --> 00:35:22,740
Plural spirit. Well, soul is going down.
It wants to go down.

511
00:35:22,824 --> 00:35:26,213
So is spirits connected
to air and fire and goes up.

512
00:35:26,296 --> 00:35:30,153
So is connected to water
and earth and it wants to go down.

513
00:35:30,236 --> 00:35:35,495
So we've lost our downness. Humans who
are children of the earth, by definition,

514
00:35:35,578 --> 00:35:40,837
have been trying to destroy the earth
or exploit it to the point of destruction.

515
00:35:40,921 --> 00:35:43,776
And that has to change.
As a matter of fact,

516
00:35:43,859 --> 00:35:46,530
from a point of view of earth awareness,

517
00:35:48,750 --> 00:35:52,900
them you know, bombing things to shreds.

518
00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:58,049
cannot be an answer. It's actually
destructive, not just to people,

519
00:35:58,133 --> 00:36:02,940
of course, but also to the earth.
It's as if we have to learn...

520
00:36:03,060 --> 00:36:05,340
the idea of going down.

521
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,880
There's an old saying, when you
find yourself in a descent, dive.

522
00:36:10,860 --> 00:36:16,196
We are in a big descent. I mean, so
many things are saying we are descending.

523
00:36:16,279 --> 00:36:18,320
So the point then is to dive.

524
00:36:19,590 --> 00:36:23,779
And I know that people can't trust that if
they don't know they're diving towards

525
00:36:23,863 --> 00:36:24,457
something.

526
00:36:24,540 --> 00:36:29,302
So there's really something essential
about the meaning and the value of

527
00:36:29,385 --> 00:36:32,936
the individual soul.
And maybe that's what I'm saying.

528
00:36:33,019 --> 00:36:35,980
We've lost the value
of the individual soul.

529
00:36:36,660 --> 00:36:42,400
How else can people be so destructive
and so dead on opposed to each other?

530
00:36:43,260 --> 00:36:48,880
As soon as we realize each person
has a soul and each soul is unique.

531
00:36:49,260 --> 00:36:55,537
philosophically, ethically,
that puts us on a different ground. And so

532
00:36:55,620 --> 00:36:58,718
That, I think, has been
forgotten because of mass culture.

533
00:36:58,801 --> 00:37:01,625
Mass culture says we are
each part of a voting group,

534
00:37:01,708 --> 00:37:05,135
we're part of a purchasing group,
we're part of an ethnic group,

535
00:37:05,218 --> 00:37:10,894
all that kind of thing. The Most important
thing has always been the individual soul,

536
00:37:10,977 --> 00:37:13,603
because it's the individual
soul that awakens.

537
00:37:13,686 --> 00:37:16,842
It's the individual soul
that takes a meaningful stand.

538
00:37:16,925 --> 00:37:20,552
We think of all the people,
heroines and heroes, the real ones,

539
00:37:20,635 --> 00:37:24,637
Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela.
Everybody can name who they are.

540
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:28,248
They were individual souls that
took a stand. And in doing that,

541
00:37:28,331 --> 00:37:32,142
they didn't just find the center
and the grounding of their own life.

542
00:37:32,225 --> 00:37:34,200
They affected everyone around them.

543
00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:39,860
So the collective of humanity can't
change at the collective level.

544
00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:44,920
It has to be individual souls that
then affect the collective change.

545
00:37:45,630 --> 00:37:50,656
And then to go back to Jung,
who's borrowing from mythology, really,

546
00:37:50,739 --> 00:37:54,217
each individual soul
is as deep as deep can be.

547
00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:57,060
The word memory comes from nemesene.

548
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,340
The goddess of memory.

549
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,862
And she's also the mother of the muses.
So if we go into the deep memory well,

550
00:38:04,945 --> 00:38:08,807
we not only find things that
have been lost and forgotten,

551
00:38:08,890 --> 00:38:14,112
we find our individual connection to
the muses who are the inspiration for all

552
00:38:14,196 --> 00:38:15,420
kinds of creation.

553
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,501
And so just to put
a mythological touch on it,

554
00:38:19,584 --> 00:38:24,660
we are in the end times with regard
to the world that's already gone.

555
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,642
And we're in the beginning times
in terms of what's trying to happen.

556
00:38:29,726 --> 00:38:33,218
But I think what's trying
to happen is coming from deep,

557
00:38:33,301 --> 00:38:35,600
deep down rather than high, high up.

558
00:38:36,090 --> 00:38:40,987
And so The individual person becomes
the potential agent of the individual.

559
00:38:41,070 --> 00:38:46,110
of recreation by becoming
more aware of their own life.

560
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,200
And to go back to the idea of the paths...

561
00:38:49,710 --> 00:38:53,099
In terms of depth psychology,
but also mythology,

562
00:38:53,182 --> 00:38:57,150
each person is already called
to a kind of path in life.

563
00:38:58,140 --> 00:39:01,528
And it's different than a career.
A career might get you through.

564
00:39:01,611 --> 00:39:03,480
A path will get you to be yourself.

565
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:08,850
And when a person has response to a
genuine calling and they find a path,

566
00:39:09,090 --> 00:39:14,557
You can tolerate much greater tension
and much greater conflict than, of course,

567
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,730
tension becomes creative tension.

568
00:39:18,150 --> 00:39:22,703
And they say that the way you judge
the maturity of a person is based upon how

569
00:39:22,786 --> 00:39:24,510
much tension they can handle.

570
00:39:24,690 --> 00:39:30,490
Because the more tension we can handle,
the more we are available to inspiration,

571
00:39:31,110 --> 00:39:36,000
from above or And also creative
energies coming from below.

572
00:39:36,270 --> 00:39:40,730
So I think when I guess when I
said we lost soul, we lost the.

573
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,400
Understanding of the importance
of the individual soul.

574
00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:49,454
Because that soul individually carries
unique gifts and unique medicines

575
00:39:49,538 --> 00:39:54,560
and capacities that the world needs.
Not that anyone's going to be the hero.

576
00:39:54,644 --> 00:39:57,600
I like the hero myth,
but I'm not a big fan.

577
00:39:58,170 --> 00:39:59,927
I'm a fan of the genius myth, which...

578
00:40:00,010 --> 00:40:03,070
Says that everyone has
their own inner genius.

579
00:40:03,730 --> 00:40:08,628
And that when that genius awakens, they
realize not just that they have capacities

580
00:40:08,711 --> 00:40:12,333
and gifts that should be given,
but also they have a calling,

581
00:40:12,416 --> 00:40:15,552
which is what opens the path
and the paths of genius.

582
00:40:15,636 --> 00:40:20,070
If enough people all gets on the paths
of genius, we don't have to agree.

583
00:40:20,650 --> 00:40:24,652
Because everybody's going to be
doing what they're called to do.

584
00:40:24,735 --> 00:40:28,674
And if we agree at least that
the soul is noble and meaningful,

585
00:40:28,757 --> 00:40:31,802
then mostly noble,
meaningful things will happen.

586
00:40:31,885 --> 00:40:34,630
And then that changes
the world from below.

587
00:40:35,620 --> 00:40:37,510
Up. Mm-hmm.

588
00:40:37,660 --> 00:40:44,343
Wow, this is beautiful. First of all,
again, so eloquently put. And also,

589
00:40:44,426 --> 00:40:46,997
I love... I love this depth.

590
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,780
And this well from which we
create something new. I love this,

591
00:40:51,863 --> 00:40:56,486
like how you mentioned that when
we really find our vocation,

592
00:40:56,570 --> 00:41:02,504
like you found your vocation, but your
vocation is not separate from the rest.

593
00:41:02,587 --> 00:41:06,516
Your vocation is inclusive
of the rest of the world.

594
00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:12,540
Because as soul is the connective tissue,
when you touch your soul, you're...

595
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,560
And you are with everything. So it's not
that I do my thing and then maybe it will

596
00:41:17,643 --> 00:41:21,831
support the world. Like if I'm really
connected and it's not my thing,

597
00:41:21,915 --> 00:41:26,652
it's like it's the expression of my soul,
but it's not separate, like my thing.

598
00:41:26,735 --> 00:41:29,641
And so, and that's beautiful
when you said, okay,

599
00:41:29,725 --> 00:41:34,240
that's the connective tissue is the soul.
And this feels really beautiful.

600
00:41:35,020 --> 00:41:37,520
Is there anything we can...

601
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:45,255
practice participate in a certain way
in such a phase that makes a positive

602
00:41:45,339 --> 00:41:46,280
difference?

603
00:41:47,170 --> 00:41:49,330
Are there any skills to develop...

604
00:41:49,510 --> 00:41:53,010
Everyone enters the world gifted and ate.

605
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,680
Specific arrangement of gifts,
talents, capacities.

606
00:41:57,070 --> 00:41:58,250
And a specific aim.

607
00:41:59,170 --> 00:42:03,966
It doesn't mean that a person can have
a multiple complicated path through life.

608
00:42:04,049 --> 00:42:06,588
It just means that it's
aimed at something.

609
00:42:06,671 --> 00:42:09,050
I wrote a book called Fate and Destiny.

610
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,692
And I was trying to say fate
is all that restricts us.

611
00:42:12,776 --> 00:42:17,756
Destiny is everything that calls us to
live beyond all respect restrictions we've

612
00:42:17,839 --> 00:42:22,444
been given. And we're all in the path
of fate and destiny being pulled back

613
00:42:22,527 --> 00:42:27,382
and forth and held in that tension. So
if we can take on the idea that everyone

614
00:42:27,466 --> 00:42:30,945
is unique and uniquely gifted,
it doesn't mean, you know,

615
00:42:31,029 --> 00:42:34,759
the word genius doesn't mean
high IQ or even specific talent.

616
00:42:34,842 --> 00:42:37,757
The word means the spirit
that's already there.

617
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,163
That's the original
meaning of the word genius.

618
00:42:41,246 --> 00:42:45,439
So the spirit that's already
there in a person is a gifted,

619
00:42:45,522 --> 00:42:51,165
an arrangement of gifts and capacities.
And finding that doesn't make life less

620
00:42:51,248 --> 00:42:56,600
tragic or less troublesome. It just
means we're going somewhere while we're

621
00:42:56,684 --> 00:42:59,862
experiencing the tragedies
and the suffering.

622
00:42:59,945 --> 00:43:04,863
And then this idea of being gifted
is connected with the notion that,

623
00:43:04,946 --> 00:43:07,700
like you were saying, it's not for me.

624
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,540
by me. The gifts aren't mine,
they're intended to be given.

625
00:43:11,950 --> 00:43:16,078
And then the big surprise happens.
The more the person gives their gifts,

626
00:43:16,162 --> 00:43:17,950
the more the gifts are present.

627
00:43:18,070 --> 00:43:21,907
You can't drain it because it's
the spirit that's already there.

628
00:43:21,991 --> 00:43:26,747
You can't drain it. It's all a matter
of learning how to keep giving it in more

629
00:43:26,830 --> 00:43:27,810
meaningful ways.

630
00:43:28,690 --> 00:43:31,999
But to me, calling, which
is really important, you know,

631
00:43:32,082 --> 00:43:37,086
you can choose a career. And as there's an
old story about the man who sees a ladder

632
00:43:37,170 --> 00:43:41,023
against the wall and he starts
climbing that ladder rung by rung,

633
00:43:41,107 --> 00:43:43,590
gets all the way to the top and realizes.

634
00:43:44,020 --> 00:43:46,060
It's leaning against the wrong wall.

635
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:50,527
How many people have had that?
So what the calling is,

636
00:43:50,610 --> 00:43:54,140
the calling is calling
to the genius in a person.

637
00:43:54,670 --> 00:43:58,245
So the calling is specific also.
And the calling can come at any time.

638
00:43:58,328 --> 00:44:01,798
And in a sense, that's what I
learned in that prison cell. You know,

639
00:44:01,882 --> 00:44:05,195
it's the last thing I wanted
was to be locked up and locked down.

640
00:44:05,278 --> 00:44:09,250
And maybe the last thing anyone would
want. And then here comes the calling.

641
00:44:09,850 --> 00:44:14,239
Then I spend the next 20 years
trying to live with that calling,

642
00:44:14,322 --> 00:44:18,641
kind of understand what it means.
And as it becomes more clear,

643
00:44:18,724 --> 00:44:21,030
then the path becomes more clear.

644
00:44:21,670 --> 00:44:26,830
And there's an old idea in India
of finding the path with heart.

645
00:44:28,180 --> 00:44:33,317
So the first thing is some sense of who
I am and what I bring to the world.

646
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:38,142
And the next thing is finding or hearing
the call and then taking having

647
00:44:38,225 --> 00:44:42,967
the courage to take the risk.
When I started telling stories and talking

648
00:44:43,050 --> 00:44:48,977
mythology. I didn't know anyone
else doing that. I mean, James...

649
00:44:49,060 --> 00:44:50,000
Joseph Campbell.

650
00:44:50,740 --> 00:44:54,224
who I eventually worked with,
was the only one anyone knew doing that,

651
00:44:54,308 --> 00:44:55,480
but he was an academic.

652
00:44:55,690 --> 00:45:00,676
I'm not an academic. I'm doing it
in the streets. I'm doing it in prisons.

653
00:45:00,759 --> 00:45:05,883
You know, I'm following a call that
without any evidence of where it's going

654
00:45:05,966 --> 00:45:10,570
or how you negotiate it. And then
it's tossed to take its own shape.

655
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:16,806
And so. It seems to me there's an old
idea when everything's falling apart,

656
00:45:16,889 --> 00:45:21,508
there's an acceleration of calling.
And you mentioned it earlier when the when

657
00:45:21,591 --> 00:45:25,630
the institutions are not working
and the frameworks are shattering.

658
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:28,450
The call of spirit gets through more.

659
00:45:29,020 --> 00:45:34,980
It's more available. And when there's
no way to see a sensible life path.

660
00:45:35,890 --> 00:45:42,070
there's more reason to take a meaningful
life path. And so so that can happen. But.

661
00:45:42,700 --> 00:45:47,334
The other thing I've found is that
everyone has a natural inclination towards

662
00:45:47,417 --> 00:45:48,520
certain practices.

663
00:45:49,900 --> 00:45:54,567
No one can go the path on their own.
We need to connect to other souls.

664
00:45:54,651 --> 00:45:57,257
The idea of having friends of the soul.

665
00:45:57,340 --> 00:46:02,612
It's not like meeting many friends like
on Facebook and modern stuff like that.

666
00:46:02,695 --> 00:46:05,000
It's having a few soulful friends.

667
00:46:05,530 --> 00:46:09,722
who know who we are and still like us.
I'm joking, but you know what I mean?

668
00:46:09,806 --> 00:46:13,661
We know each other's weaknesses
and we love each other for who we are.

669
00:46:13,744 --> 00:46:16,586
That's really important,
having friends of the soul.

670
00:46:16,670 --> 00:46:19,118
And then the other thing
is having practices.

671
00:46:19,201 --> 00:46:21,762
And because the gifts
of a person are specific,

672
00:46:21,846 --> 00:46:25,390
the inclination towards practices
can tend to be that way, too.

673
00:46:25,780 --> 00:46:31,274
And so I really encourage people to find
practices because we can be knocked off

674
00:46:31,357 --> 00:46:35,627
the path and knocked out of our
sense of cohesion by practice.

675
00:46:35,710 --> 00:46:40,355
by all the things that are happening day
after day, and it's going to continue.

676
00:46:40,439 --> 00:46:43,588
And so, you know, there's
two great paths of practice,

677
00:46:43,671 --> 00:46:47,598
the meditative contemplative path
and the creative expressive path.

678
00:46:47,682 --> 00:46:50,471
That's the way they
divided it in ancient India.

679
00:46:50,555 --> 00:46:54,602
And some people are called to go
into deep meditation and reflection,

680
00:46:54,685 --> 00:46:59,091
and they find their self that way.
And other people are called to go and be

681
00:46:59,174 --> 00:47:01,030
creative, make music, make art,

682
00:47:05,710 --> 00:47:10,355
practice. And then some people go
back and forth. And that's okay, too.

683
00:47:10,439 --> 00:47:13,000
There's no rules. The idea... Thank you.

684
00:47:13,090 --> 00:47:16,570
Sometimes you just ask people,
"What do you love?"

685
00:47:17,230 --> 00:47:20,729
And if a person can answer that, well,
that could be part of the path and

686
00:47:20,812 --> 00:47:22,562
that could be part of the practice.

687
00:47:23,110 --> 00:47:27,800
And so some of us love music and need
music. And then you have to figure out,

688
00:47:27,884 --> 00:47:32,264
am I just a listener or am I going
to make it? And then in making music,

689
00:47:32,347 --> 00:47:36,975
you're not trying to win the contest.
You're trying to find the voice coming

690
00:47:37,059 --> 00:47:41,811
through you. And so practices become
really important because the world around

691
00:47:41,894 --> 00:47:46,210
this is not going to settle.
And a practice can become a refuge.

692
00:47:46,930 --> 00:47:49,969
a dwelling place. It doesn't
have to be silent and quiet,

693
00:47:50,053 --> 00:47:51,917
although for some people that's it.

694
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,380
It can be very creative.

695
00:47:54,100 --> 00:47:58,578
And in the midst of a world
full of destruction, destruction,

696
00:47:58,661 --> 00:48:02,400
being creative is its own
kind of rite of passage.

697
00:48:03,100 --> 00:48:09,873
Yeah, beautiful. Beautiful. And you said
something that also caught my attention.

698
00:48:09,956 --> 00:48:11,480
You said in a way,

699
00:48:12,130 --> 00:48:18,846
Like maturity we see in the way how much
tension we can kind of stay related to

700
00:48:18,929 --> 00:48:24,268
or handle. And I want you to maybe
speak a bit more about that.

701
00:48:24,351 --> 00:48:28,310
How does this reflect
maturity? How does it...

702
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:33,116
teach us that that if we have
tension or discomfort in our life,

703
00:48:33,199 --> 00:48:35,890
it's not necessarily
a good or a bad thing.

704
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:42,004
It's part of the path and our relationship
to it and how we handle it also shows

705
00:48:42,087 --> 00:48:46,826
something about... the maturity
of our path in the world. And yeah,

706
00:48:46,909 --> 00:48:52,298
so maybe you can speak a bit about
this because I think that's also a very

707
00:48:52,381 --> 00:48:56,300
important aspect of how
to be in this time right now.

708
00:48:56,830 --> 00:49:01,282
That's part of the liminal condition
is extraordinary tension. Well,

709
00:49:01,365 --> 00:49:04,483
the first thing that comes
to mind is I'm a kid.

710
00:49:04,567 --> 00:49:09,485
I'm at home in the house in New York
City when I'm growing up and my mother

711
00:49:09,569 --> 00:49:12,770
and father are having
a really intense argument.

712
00:49:13,330 --> 00:49:17,354
A little unusual for my father
to be so outspoken and argumentative,

713
00:49:17,437 --> 00:49:22,186
not so unusual with my mother. But I wake
up and I go into the kitchen and there

714
00:49:22,269 --> 00:49:26,172
they are having the standoff.
And I don't know which one to go to.

715
00:49:26,256 --> 00:49:30,763
I'm like getting really scared. And then
I finally decide I'm going to go to

716
00:49:30,846 --> 00:49:31,679
my mother.

717
00:49:32,140 --> 00:49:35,667
Um, Later in life,
I wouldn't necessarily go that way.

718
00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:38,702
I think my father was on the
greater danger. But anyway,

719
00:49:38,785 --> 00:49:42,200
I had to go to one or the other.
I could not stand the tension.

720
00:49:43,060 --> 00:49:44,060
as a child.

721
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:51,160
And so then when we get to looking
like or acting like adults, Um,

722
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:55,455
we should have the capacity to withstand
that tension greater because,

723
00:49:55,539 --> 00:49:59,937
you know, everyone near as I can tell
everyone is an abandoned child, uh,

724
00:50:00,020 --> 00:50:04,873
Everyone has early life traumatic
experiences that seem to be part of

725
00:50:04,956 --> 00:50:05,697
the deal.

726
00:50:05,780 --> 00:50:11,511
So but also part of the deal is realizing
later I am no longer a child. Yes,

727
00:50:11,594 --> 00:50:16,713
I can feel overwhelmed by the tension
of this, whatever it might be,

728
00:50:16,796 --> 00:50:19,737
a battle or even just creative tension.

729
00:50:19,820 --> 00:50:24,671
But I don't have to be overwhelmed. I
actually can recall living through things

730
00:50:24,755 --> 00:50:29,356
and things that I've learned. And so
that's what I'm calling more maturity,

731
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,500
not more responsibility in that
kind of a Protestant ethical way.

732
00:50:33,830 --> 00:50:39,147
but a greater capacity to remain present
when the circumstances become challenging.

733
00:50:39,230 --> 00:50:42,250
And then really realizing I'm not a child.

734
00:50:42,334 --> 00:50:45,723
I don't have to simply
choose one or the other.

735
00:50:45,806 --> 00:50:48,910
And that creates the creative opportunity.

736
00:50:49,610 --> 00:50:55,610
Um, creativity is the only outcome of a
conflict that is satisfying to the soul.

737
00:50:56,540 --> 00:51:00,369
Whether it's the inner conflicts we
have or the outer conflicts we have,

738
00:51:00,452 --> 00:51:02,300
the issue is not winner and loser.

739
00:51:02,930 --> 00:51:04,330
you know, that we

740
00:51:04,940 --> 00:51:08,389
I worked with William Stafford,
the American poet before he died.

741
00:51:08,472 --> 00:51:10,700
He was a great, great person, great poet.

742
00:51:10,970 --> 00:51:13,570
And he wrote a book called
Every War Has Two Losers.

743
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:18,290
And I think a new book could be written.
Every war now has many, many losers.

744
00:51:18,980 --> 00:51:24,941
Um, and so, um, Lots, very often,
even in situation of war,

745
00:51:25,024 --> 00:51:27,840
people can't hold attention any longer.

746
00:51:28,130 --> 00:51:32,550
And so then the only thing
is to win or lose. But,

747
00:51:32,660 --> 00:51:36,420
Creative tension is there to create.

748
00:51:37,130 --> 00:51:38,230
A third thing.

749
00:51:39,020 --> 00:51:43,479
Like I live in America and we have two
political parties and one is supposed

750
00:51:43,562 --> 00:51:46,886
to be Republican. The other
is supposed to be Democratic.

751
00:51:46,969 --> 00:51:49,240
And the Republican is the upper class.

752
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,107
They're supposed to be

753
00:51:52,190 --> 00:51:57,082
holding upper class elite ideas,
but also principles. The other side,

754
00:51:57,165 --> 00:52:02,994
the Democrat is we the people. And they're
supposed to be insisting that everybody

755
00:52:03,077 --> 00:52:06,250
has a place and everybody
deserves a chance.

756
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:11,707
And if those two sides were legitimate,
if each side held to what its ethics are

757
00:52:11,790 --> 00:52:15,095
supposed to be, the answer
wouldn't be winner and loser.

758
00:52:15,179 --> 00:52:19,815
The answer would be a third thing that
neither side thought of until they held

759
00:52:19,898 --> 00:52:21,350
the tension long enough.

760
00:52:21,860 --> 00:52:25,782
And so that's my understanding
of creative tension. And naturally,

761
00:52:25,866 --> 00:52:27,140
it happens inside us.

762
00:52:27,530 --> 00:52:32,810
I remember at the point where I
was married and I had four children.

763
00:52:33,230 --> 00:52:37,630
And and yet I have also found that I'm
a storyteller and a student of myth.

764
00:52:37,714 --> 00:52:41,755
And and I tried to make a living
as a storyteller and it didn't work.

765
00:52:41,838 --> 00:52:46,179
You know, like the house is falling
down and finally the family is saying,

766
00:52:46,262 --> 00:52:49,527
you know, it's entertaining,
but it's not entertaining.

767
00:52:49,610 --> 00:52:53,223
providing what we need.
So I had to go get a real job.

768
00:52:53,307 --> 00:52:58,974
And I made a deal with myself that I would
do five years of work in the world that I

769
00:52:59,057 --> 00:53:04,519
don't want to do in order to put a roof
on the house and get the kids who are now

770
00:53:04,603 --> 00:53:08,353
growing everything that they need.
And after five years,

771
00:53:08,436 --> 00:53:10,490
I'm going back to the calling.

772
00:53:11,240 --> 00:53:15,900
And it kind of worked.
But in the meantime, what happened was,

773
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:21,900
Because I was tuned into this calling,
which involved like inspiration from

774
00:53:21,984 --> 00:53:26,580
the muses, I started getting awakened
at four o'clock in the morning, roughly,

775
00:53:26,663 --> 00:53:30,919
with deliveries from the muses saying,
we can't get you later in the day because

776
00:53:31,002 --> 00:53:34,986
you've got the dumb job. We can't get
you at night because you're so tired.

777
00:53:35,069 --> 00:53:38,999
So we're waking you up at four o'clock,
which in ancient India they called

778
00:53:39,082 --> 00:53:43,971
the hour of God. And so and the first
book I wrote, that's what it was.

779
00:53:44,054 --> 00:53:49,400
I would wake up at four o'clock and there
would be a voice speaking paragraphs.

780
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:54,095
And each night I would have a choice.
Am I getting up to write them down or am I

781
00:53:54,178 --> 00:53:57,996
falling back to sleep? And sometimes
I was so tired I had to sleep.

782
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,189
But I also remember the attention.
I'm literally getting deliveries from

783
00:54:02,272 --> 00:54:05,799
the muses and I hear my mother's
voice saying, well, you know,

784
00:54:05,882 --> 00:54:08,943
you need eight hours of sleep.
And I realized, oh, no,

785
00:54:09,027 --> 00:54:12,262
I better get up right now
because that's not what I need.

786
00:54:12,346 --> 00:54:16,480
I need this vital source of creative
energy coming from outside myself.

787
00:54:16,940 --> 00:54:23,220
And so in my own little version
of trying to do this, I get deliveries.

788
00:54:23,780 --> 00:54:28,243
I call them deliveries and often
four o'clock, 430 in the morning.

789
00:54:28,327 --> 00:54:30,600
But as I've paid attention to it.

790
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,840
It can happen at any time, day or night.

791
00:54:33,620 --> 00:54:39,048
And I'm just saying that in order
to illustrate the idea of a practice and

792
00:54:39,132 --> 00:54:42,260
a calling, opening a path that gets wider.

793
00:54:42,620 --> 00:54:48,460
And gives us the chance and the
opportunity to become vessels.

794
00:54:48,650 --> 00:54:52,396
of energy that's trying to come into
the world. You can call it spirit,

795
00:54:52,479 --> 00:54:56,427
you can call it creativity, call it soul.
We can put a lot of names on it.

796
00:54:56,510 --> 00:54:59,804
But those energies
that are the most creative,

797
00:54:59,887 --> 00:55:05,530
most medicinal and most soulful energies
can only enter into the world through

798
00:55:05,614 --> 00:55:08,110
the people living at a given time.

799
00:55:08,540 --> 00:55:14,116
Mm-hmm. We are each potential
agents of healing and recreation,

800
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,761
and we each can find our own
way to open the channel,

801
00:55:18,844 --> 00:55:24,194
to use a contemporary word,
and then realize how this happens.

802
00:55:24,277 --> 00:55:28,740
I'll say one more thing.
So when I tell stories.

803
00:55:29,030 --> 00:55:34,580
I've never rehearsed a story. And the
story is never told the same way twice.

804
00:55:35,180 --> 00:55:40,030
And when I was starting out doing that,
I would get criticized by the Folklore

805
00:55:40,114 --> 00:55:43,193
Society or somebody saying,
you're not doing this.

806
00:55:43,276 --> 00:55:45,976
You're not doing
the original version. Well,

807
00:55:46,059 --> 00:55:50,340
I know there is no original version,
but also they just said version,

808
00:55:50,424 --> 00:55:53,250
implying that there
was more than one version.

809
00:55:53,333 --> 00:55:57,867
So I had to claim this ground, which
means that when I'm telling a story,

810
00:55:57,950 --> 00:56:00,860
it is trying to live
through me in the moment.

811
00:56:05,180 --> 00:56:07,880
That story, I'm giving life to the story.

812
00:56:08,330 --> 00:56:11,865
which is giving life to me
and the audience can feel it too.

813
00:56:11,949 --> 00:56:16,050
And so I'm just using that as an
illustration, whatever the path is.

814
00:56:16,790 --> 00:56:20,630
The path can be almost anything,
but when a person...

815
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:26,665
allows themselves to be present to it,
then knowledge becomes available that

816
00:56:26,748 --> 00:56:32,884
was otherwise unknown and capacities,
including having more courage in the heart

817
00:56:32,968 --> 00:56:39,327
because I'm standing on ground. That means
something and goes deeper than anything.

818
00:56:39,410 --> 00:56:40,610
on my feet.

819
00:56:41,210 --> 00:56:46,803
wow that's so beautiful lovely lovely
lovely i like i love this what you said

820
00:56:46,887 --> 00:56:47,720
about the

821
00:56:48,350 --> 00:56:52,627
that the story comes through you
because you are living in a body and the,

822
00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:57,164
and the information can come through
you and live you and make you more alive

823
00:56:57,247 --> 00:57:01,819
at the same time and make it alive in you.
This is a beautiful way to share it.

824
00:57:01,902 --> 00:57:06,061
And it also means it's true because
I think in many mystical traditions,

825
00:57:06,144 --> 00:57:08,889
exactly what you said,
the spirit comes through,

826
00:57:08,972 --> 00:57:13,603
but the people that are incarnated that
are in a body that are living right now,

827
00:57:13,686 --> 00:57:14,570
this is needed.

828
00:57:18,350 --> 00:57:24,943
matter, like to the manifestation. And you
put this beautifully. That's lovely.

829
00:57:25,027 --> 00:57:31,789
And I want to underline one thing that I
think is such an important skill to have

830
00:57:31,872 --> 00:57:34,830
or to develop more and more is that

831
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:40,860
as long as I can host tension of a
conflict or the attention in myself,

832
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:43,970
I do not externalize it as other.

833
00:57:45,020 --> 00:57:47,950
And in the moment I
externalize it as other,

834
00:57:48,033 --> 00:57:53,017
I become part of the polarization
of our world and I become part of a camp

835
00:57:53,101 --> 00:57:56,647
that then needs another
camp to oppose its own voice.

836
00:57:56,730 --> 00:58:02,125
And I think this is such a powerful thing
you just said about that this capacity

837
00:58:02,209 --> 00:58:06,660
to host attention and then allow
it to become a creative process.

838
00:58:15,020 --> 00:58:17,680
and it's beautifully said.
So thank you for this.

839
00:58:18,710 --> 00:58:21,934
Michael, I'm really
enjoying this conversation.

840
00:58:22,018 --> 00:58:27,424
I'm enjoying the music of your words
and the flow of how it flows through you.

841
00:58:27,507 --> 00:58:33,194
It's really beautiful. Is there anything
else that is not specific to any question

842
00:58:33,278 --> 00:58:37,377
that you think it's great
for us to hear before we wrap up?

843
00:58:37,460 --> 00:58:44,070
EQ Um... the somewhat famous Zen poet.

844
00:58:44,330 --> 00:58:50,783
who was also called the criminal
poet because he broke so many rules,

845
00:58:50,866 --> 00:58:57,866
making him my favorite Zen poet. But he
has a poem in which he says at the end,

846
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:02,280
You can't help but be...
who you are and where.

847
00:59:03,650 --> 00:59:06,930
And the first time I heard that,
that hit me as real truth.

848
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,317
And so we're talking about

849
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:15,029
Calling, giftedness, courage
in the heart, paths of heart.

850
00:59:15,112 --> 00:59:18,200
But we all have to start where we are.

851
00:59:18,290 --> 00:59:23,337
And when I read that, I realized, oh,
there's permission in that and there's

852
00:59:23,420 --> 00:59:24,770
forgiveness in that.

853
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:32,726
So we have to give ourselves to permission
to be who we are in a limited condition

854
00:59:32,810 --> 00:59:39,121
in the given moment. And I think we
have to forgive ourselves for who we are

855
00:59:39,204 --> 00:59:45,431
and where we are. Only then can we
actually find the footprints of the path

856
00:59:45,515 --> 00:59:47,450
with heart. So because.

857
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:53,461
It's such a hard time because the pressure
in the world comes down on each individual

858
00:59:53,544 --> 00:59:58,737
in ways that are really unusual and it
pushes everybody into their early life

859
00:59:58,820 --> 00:59:59,960
trauma. So,

860
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:07,189
And people get caught there. We also have
to have ideas. And this one works for me.

861
01:00:07,273 --> 01:00:12,220
You can't help but be who you
are and where. And that's the.

862
01:00:12,870 --> 01:00:18,150
Starting place for the initiate. That's
the starting place for the awakening soul.

863
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:24,280
And so I try to say that to myself
frequently because, you know.

864
01:00:24,750 --> 01:00:29,568
Anyway. Permission and forgiveness
are necessary for finding the path.

865
01:00:29,651 --> 01:00:32,680
And that's one phrase
that helps me keep finding it.

866
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,960
I love it.
I think this is a great way to...

867
01:00:37,110 --> 01:00:41,232
And on that note, and thank you
so much, Michael. This is great.

868
01:00:41,316 --> 01:00:46,292
I really enjoyed this. It's so resonant.
It's so deep. And so thank you very,

869
01:00:46,376 --> 01:00:51,352
very much. And I'm sure everybody's
going to enjoy your wisdom and your flow.

870
01:00:51,436 --> 01:00:52,290
So thank you.

871
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:57,703
Well, thank you for inviting me. And it
is a conversation and I feel your presence

872
01:00:57,786 --> 01:01:01,460
and that allowed me to be more free.
So thank you for that.

873
01:01:01,950 --> 01:01:03,510
Hmm. Thank you.

874
01:01:05,610 --> 01:01:09,355
Thanks for listening to Point
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