WEBVTT 00:00:00.090 --> 00:00:02.772 Ripple has been powering modern finance for a decade. 00:00:02.856 --> 00:00:06.999 We're leading the charge to bridge the gap between existing financial systems and 00:00:07.082 --> 00:00:08.230 the future of finance. 00:00:08.580 --> 00:00:12.220 You can have it all. Legacy, stability, and digital innovation. 00:00:12.303 --> 00:00:16.593 Systems that work with your other systems. Because with the right partner, 00:00:16.676 --> 00:00:20.907 the question isn't crypto or traditional finance. The question is simply, 00:00:20.990 --> 00:00:24.668 why choose? A new standard of modern finance. It's happening with Ripple. 00:00:24.751 --> 00:00:27.981 For informational purposes only, availability of products can vary and may 00:00:28.064 --> 00:00:30.114 be provided by different Ripple entities. 00:00:31.340 --> 00:00:35.029 Imagine if your home helped pay the bills. Yep, the groceries, 00:00:35.113 --> 00:00:40.019 or even the mortgage, could be supported with the extra cash you earn from listing 00:00:40.102 --> 00:00:44.156 your home on Airbnb. Whether it's your whole home while you're away, 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:48.963 or a spare room when you're in town, hosting is a smart way to earn a bit extra 00:00:49.047 --> 00:00:52.493 on the side. Your home might be worth more than you think. 00:00:52.576 --> 00:00:55.740 Find out how much at airbnb.com.au slash host. Music 00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:03.640 Hi, everyone. This is Dare to Lead and I'm Brene Brown. And with me today again... 00:01:07.350 --> 00:01:09.610 My friend, Adam Grant. Hi, Adam. Hey, Brune. 00:01:09.693 --> 00:01:12.250 I'm still recovering from our last conversation. 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:17.500 Me too. You know, it's had me actually thinking about the previous conversation. 00:01:18.390 --> 00:01:20.250 When you were talking about 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:25.950 Steve's experience with medical residents not knowing when parents want support 00:01:26.033 --> 00:01:30.010 versus solutions. Mm hmm. And I, It seems like... 00:01:30.390 --> 00:01:33.051 There's something we haven't talked about yet, 00:01:33.135 --> 00:01:37.347 even though we've talked about empathy now in a couple of conversations, 00:01:37.431 --> 00:01:42.061 which is the tactical skills of being able to understand what other people need 00:01:42.145 --> 00:01:46.775 and want. And I would love to talk about that because I think one of the things 00:01:46.858 --> 00:01:51.369 I've been seeing for years now is I'll go give a speech at a conference or at 00:01:51.453 --> 00:01:56.203 a workplace. And your team has been there doing dare to lead training and they're 00:01:56.286 --> 00:01:59.150 raving about the empathy skills they've learned. 00:01:59.580 --> 00:02:04.986 Like, wait, empathy is a skill set. And then I'm reading strong ground and you 00:02:05.070 --> 00:02:10.265 have this this whole list of empathy misses that I feel like is the missing 00:02:10.348 --> 00:02:11.181 link. 00:02:11.460 --> 00:02:13.360 in so many people's 00:02:13.530 --> 00:02:17.332 efforts to show empathy to others. And I would love to talk about those. 00:02:17.416 --> 00:02:20.330 Can we talk about those? Yeah, let's do it. Because... 00:02:20.670 --> 00:02:25.252 It's interesting when we do the Dare to Lead training, we often ask, 00:02:25.335 --> 00:02:30.602 what is it like when you share something, when you're vulnerable and you share 00:02:30.686 --> 00:02:33.910 something that's really difficult with someone? 00:02:34.410 --> 00:02:36.690 and you feel heard and seen. 00:02:37.230 --> 00:02:41.730 And I always ask folks, just shout out words. And people will say... 00:02:42.060 --> 00:02:46.377 relief, warmth, connection, trust, love. And then I say, 00:02:46.460 --> 00:02:52.427 what does it feel like when you share something that's difficult with someone 00:02:52.510 --> 00:02:56.591 and they either don't get it, they're not interested, 00:02:56.674 --> 00:03:02.798 or they make it about themselves? And the words that people shout out are cold, 00:03:02.881 --> 00:03:09.326 regret, regret. hangover. I hate you. You know, it's like, and the problem is, 00:03:09.409 --> 00:03:13.950 I think that the messy thing about being human is that, 00:03:14.490 --> 00:03:18.590 Many times we are the folks that have the courage to share something difficult and 00:03:19.620 --> 00:03:23.824 Many times we are the people that hear something difficult from someone we care 00:03:23.907 --> 00:03:27.760 about and really show up in a great way. And many times we screw it up. 00:03:28.170 --> 00:03:33.551 So one of the things that's kind of a classic dare to lead tool is we have a big 00:03:33.634 --> 00:03:36.230 sign when we get to the empathy group. 00:03:36.480 --> 00:03:39.640 section of our work that says... 00:03:40.140 --> 00:03:44.050 I commit... Choo! Practicing empathy. 00:03:44.670 --> 00:03:46.630 screwing up and trying again. 00:03:47.010 --> 00:03:50.090 and everybody signs it on their way to break because it's like you're just not 00:03:50.174 --> 00:03:51.624 going to always get it right. 00:03:52.710 --> 00:03:55.927 And some of my most fun stories are early in my career, 00:03:56.010 --> 00:03:58.507 I taught a class for incoming MSW students, 00:03:58.590 --> 00:04:03.127 Masters of Social Work students, and we did a lot of empathy skills building. 00:04:03.210 --> 00:04:07.657 And in the beginning, they would have role plays and it would be like, wow. 00:04:07.740 --> 00:04:08.573 you know, 00:04:08.760 --> 00:04:14.710 Mr. Grant comes and is having this issue and you could just see them. Oh, 00:04:14.793 --> 00:04:15.627 Mr. Grant. 00:04:16.410 --> 00:04:20.210 I am so sorry. You must be feeling... 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:27.795 dejected and full of despair. It was like so shitty and terrible. 00:04:27.878 --> 00:04:34.200 And they're like, oh, When does this get better. And I said, 00:04:35.010 --> 00:04:38.811 It's skills building and muscle memory. You don't think of the 45 actions it takes 00:04:38.894 --> 00:04:40.494 to make a left turn in your car. 00:04:40.590 --> 00:04:44.483 You just do it. And I think it's a skill that you have to build. 00:04:44.567 --> 00:04:48.087 So we can jump into it. Let me, let me. I love this. Yeah. 00:04:48.170 --> 00:04:51.120 Let me start by saying that. Yeah. 00:04:52.140 --> 00:04:54.690 Last time we talked about the difference between... 00:04:54.960 --> 00:04:59.294 Affective empathy and cognitive empathy. Affective empathy is, I think, 00:04:59.377 --> 00:05:02.591 very dangerous. It's I'm going to feel what you feel. 00:05:02.674 --> 00:05:06.075 I don't know where I end and you begin. It's enmeshment. 00:05:06.158 --> 00:05:09.434 It's over-identification. If the story is really hard, 00:05:09.518 --> 00:05:14.038 it can be secondary trauma. And it actually drives disconnection and a lot 00:05:14.121 --> 00:05:18.517 of unhealthy, unproductive behavior. Cognitive empathy drives connection 00:05:18.601 --> 00:05:23.640 and trust. It's the ability to draw from my own experiences and acknowledge that. 00:05:25.890 --> 00:05:27.190 what you might be feeling, 00:05:27.840 --> 00:05:31.519 without feeling it. And it does require some emotional granularity, 00:05:31.602 --> 00:05:35.214 like Susan David's work from Harvard. It requires that you have a pretty 00:05:35.298 --> 00:05:37.710 sophisticated lexicon about different emotions. 00:05:38.310 --> 00:05:43.373 Yeah. So when we teach empathy, we teach kind of five skill sets, 00:05:43.456 --> 00:05:45.580 which is one perspective taking. 00:05:47.190 --> 00:05:48.023 This is 00:05:48.510 --> 00:05:52.498 I want to dig into this for a minute with you because I think it's interesting. 00:05:52.582 --> 00:05:53.870 I hate when people say... 00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:58.420 Empathy is walking in someone else's shoes. 00:06:00.150 --> 00:06:01.850 A, gross, I don't want to do that. 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:08.100 I'm not a shushier. You don't want my foot fungus? I don't want your foot fungus. 00:06:08.850 --> 00:06:11.331 Taking that very personally. Yeah. I mean, I really don't. 00:06:11.415 --> 00:06:13.984 The only thing that's good, because I raise little swimmers, 00:06:14.067 --> 00:06:17.389 and the only thing that's good is I know you spend a lot of time in chlorine, 00:06:17.472 --> 00:06:18.305 so maybe. 00:06:20.050 --> 00:06:20.883 But... 00:06:21.750 --> 00:06:23.800 It's trickier than walking in your shoes. 00:06:24.690 --> 00:06:28.950 It's listening to your experience of you walking in your shoes. 00:06:29.460 --> 00:06:31.720 and believing that experience. 00:06:32.280 --> 00:06:34.630 whether it matches my lived experiences or not. 00:06:35.760 --> 00:06:39.155 Does that make sense to you? Oh, it does. Okay. 00:06:39.238 --> 00:06:42.337 It makes me think about two things. One is, 00:06:42.420 --> 00:06:46.120 do you remember the great Jack Handy line about... 00:06:46.980 --> 00:06:49.180 Walking a mile in somebody else's shoes? No. 00:06:49.770 --> 00:06:52.622 Oh, it goes something like, before you criticize someone, 00:06:52.705 --> 00:06:56.381 you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, 00:06:56.464 --> 00:06:58.730 you're a mile away and you have their shoes. 00:07:02.340 --> 00:07:06.729 I freaking love that. That's the only thing good about walking in someone else's 00:07:06.813 --> 00:07:10.252 shoes. You get to steal them. That's it. That just made my day. 00:07:10.335 --> 00:07:12.879 That is so funny. Okay, on a more serious note, 00:07:12.963 --> 00:07:17.017 it makes me think about some research that Nick Epley did on what he calls 00:07:17.100 --> 00:07:21.378 perspective mistaking as opposed to perspective taking where I think it was 25 00:07:21.461 --> 00:07:24.173 experiments when people tried to perspective take, 00:07:24.256 --> 00:07:27.024 the more different they were from the other person, 00:07:27.108 --> 00:07:31.860 the more likely they were to misunderstand the other person's perspective. Of course. 00:07:32.340 --> 00:07:36.573 come away with this false sense that I get it because I've tried to walk in 00:07:36.657 --> 00:07:40.544 your shoes, but I don't really know what it's like to think like you. 00:07:40.628 --> 00:07:44.573 And I haven't, I haven't accepted the, the, the whole premise of your, 00:07:44.657 --> 00:07:48.340 of your experience. And so I don't, I don't really get it, but I 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:54.978 I love the way that you described this. Even if it's not my lived experience, 00:07:55.061 --> 00:08:00.180 I understand and accept your experience. Yeah, I believe you. 00:08:01.170 --> 00:08:02.190 I believe you. 00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:06.220 I mean, I'll just give you a quick example. 00:08:07.290 --> 00:08:09.590 Steve and I were talking about... 00:08:10.890 --> 00:08:13.410 running to the mall and, 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:17.880 And I was like, I don't think I want to go. It's already dark. And he's like... 00:08:18.420 --> 00:08:20.110 It's like, 830. 00:08:20.940 --> 00:08:24.107 And I said, my experience in the mall parking lot is not your experience in 00:08:24.190 --> 00:08:25.240 the mall parking lot. 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:29.820 And he thought about it for a second and he said, 00:08:31.260 --> 00:08:32.093 A. 00:08:32.340 --> 00:08:35.070 I'll direct quote. I fucking hate that. 00:08:35.670 --> 00:08:36.720 and be I Believe You. 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:42.543 you know, And that's not like I need you to put on, you know, 00:08:42.626 --> 00:08:46.621 I need you to put on my ballet flats and go to the mall and see what it's like 00:08:46.704 --> 00:08:49.444 because he's still a six foot one dude that, you know, 00:08:49.527 --> 00:08:51.097 there's people like weird shoes. 00:08:51.180 --> 00:08:55.885 But – He just believes my experience, even though it's not his. 00:08:55.968 --> 00:08:58.680 So perspective taking, staying out of judgment, 00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:01.897 not putting value on what you're hearing. 00:09:01.980 --> 00:09:03.480 Recognizing emotion. 00:09:04.590 --> 00:09:07.740 Number four, communicating our understanding about the emotion. 00:09:09.780 --> 00:09:13.720 And sometimes, you know, I write this in Strong Ground, that, 00:09:14.820 --> 00:09:16.467 Sometimes my sister will call and say, God, 00:09:16.550 --> 00:09:19.123 you're not going to believe what just happened. I'm like, tell me. 00:09:19.206 --> 00:09:21.757 What I usually say, just to be honest with you, is I'll... 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:23.540 Tell me and tell me what you want. 00:09:23.970 --> 00:09:28.002 And she'll say, I just want you to listen. And then I'm going to hang up. 00:09:28.086 --> 00:09:31.554 I don't want to talk about it right now. Gotcha. On it. Say it. 00:09:31.638 --> 00:09:34.712 And sometimes if she'll say, this is what just happened. 00:09:34.795 --> 00:09:36.430 And it was super hard. And... 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:39.340 And I'll just say, oh, shit. 00:09:41.040 --> 00:09:44.120 And she's like, thanks. I can tell you get it. 00:09:44.520 --> 00:09:49.806 And that's not like, oh, what I hear you saying is a mixture of overwhelm with 00:09:49.889 --> 00:09:54.831 a slight tinge of anguish rising. Sometimes it's just you can convey very 00:09:54.915 --> 00:09:59.927 simply. I mean, think about a 12-step group. You're sitting there, you're 00:10:00.010 --> 00:10:01.570 telling really hard stories. 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:05.679 And there's no crosstalk in those groups. But you're sitting with a group of people 00:10:05.763 --> 00:10:08.963 who are drinking black coffee and smoking cigarettes and going – 00:10:09.250 --> 00:10:11.610 With their face and eyes only. Oh, man. 00:10:12.790 --> 00:10:14.490 That's that's shitty. That's hard. 00:10:14.650 --> 00:10:19.916 That's enough. And then the last skill that I add is actually from Kristen Neff's 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:24.565 work. which is practicing mindfulness, not pushing away emotion because it's 00:10:24.648 --> 00:10:29.320 uncomfortable, but feeling it and moving through it and not staying stuck in it. 00:10:30.940 --> 00:10:33.800 So this gets to our conversation, I think, last time too. 00:10:33.884 --> 00:10:36.641 So if I share something with you and you identify, wow, 00:10:36.724 --> 00:10:38.480 I'm going to be a little bit more. 00:10:41.800 --> 00:10:43.750 I could see how that would feel lonely. 00:10:45.220 --> 00:10:49.280 If I measured you, you'd have zero feelings of loneliness yourself. 00:10:50.110 --> 00:10:50.943 Yeah. 00:10:51.820 --> 00:10:54.420 Because you're not making yourself feel what I feel. 00:10:54.550 --> 00:10:59.210 You're reflecting cognitively from your internal encyclopedia of emotion and 00:11:00.430 --> 00:11:04.983 what that must be and what's so helpful about empathy. If I go, no, Adam, 00:11:05.066 --> 00:11:07.670 I didn't feel lonely. Like I felt like... 00:11:09.190 --> 00:11:10.340 I actually felt scared. 00:11:11.950 --> 00:11:14.600 And then you say... Wow, say more. 00:11:15.520 --> 00:11:19.273 I am loving you, trusting you, and connecting with you in that moment because 00:11:19.356 --> 00:11:21.106 you're curious about my experience. 00:11:21.580 --> 00:11:24.050 Thank you. And... 00:11:24.940 --> 00:11:26.660 If and when you get it wrong... 00:11:29.680 --> 00:11:33.047 And it's, You call me a couple hours later and say, Ben, 00:11:33.131 --> 00:11:36.000 you shared something really hard with me. I wonder... 00:11:37.270 --> 00:11:40.170 I think I wish I would have shown up a little bit differently when you did that. 00:11:40.253 --> 00:11:42.153 Do you have a minute to talk about it? 00:11:42.430 --> 00:11:45.430 You know what that is? That's love and trust and connection. 00:11:46.090 --> 00:11:50.140 We're not going to get this right. And so you want to talk about the misses? Yes. 00:11:50.620 --> 00:11:53.200 Definitely, because I have to tell you, I... 00:11:53.830 --> 00:11:56.250 I'm guilty of empathy misses a lot. 00:11:56.920 --> 00:12:03.590 Thank you. End. I see actually myself in several of these, but the... 00:12:03.940 --> 00:12:05.020 I think that the... 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:10.315 The repeated trap that I find myself falling in is I jump right to solutions. 00:12:10.398 --> 00:12:13.420 Mm-hmm. Forgetting that somebody just wants support. 00:12:14.140 --> 00:12:15.140 And, you know, 00:12:15.310 --> 00:12:18.245 I have a really hard time relating to that because I would never tell someone 00:12:18.328 --> 00:12:20.728 a problem unless I wanted their help solving it. 00:12:21.190 --> 00:12:22.030 I think... 00:12:22.750 --> 00:12:26.534 I get that because I'm also, I have a lot of action bias myself. 00:12:26.618 --> 00:12:29.254 I don't know if you'd call yours action bias, 00:12:29.337 --> 00:12:33.870 so I don't want to put that on you, but I have a lot of action bias. And... 00:12:34.210 --> 00:12:36.497 There's three things that make it complicated for me. 00:12:36.580 --> 00:12:38.942 when you call me and tell me something hard. One, 00:12:39.026 --> 00:12:42.126 I have a lot of action bias. Two, I have a lot of action bias. 00:12:42.820 --> 00:12:45.780 Problem solving is probably one of my strong suits. 00:12:46.270 --> 00:12:47.870 And three... 00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:53.454 I have decades of feedback that tell me that that's the value I add in a lot 00:12:53.537 --> 00:12:54.700 of relationships. 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:00.540 I mean, story of my life, all three of those. Yes. Yeah. So... 00:13:01.090 --> 00:13:03.350 One of the things with the people – 00:13:04.180 --> 00:13:08.960 that I love the most in my life, my family, my kids, Steve. 00:13:09.550 --> 00:13:15.789 is... we are very explicit with each other. It's a practice that we put in. 00:13:15.872 --> 00:13:18.460 It's a practice we put in at work too is – 00:13:19.090 --> 00:13:21.527 I'm really struggling. I'd like to share it with you. 00:13:21.610 --> 00:13:24.130 And what would be helpful for me is, 00:13:25.660 --> 00:13:26.740 is... 00:13:27.940 --> 00:13:28.773 Just to listen. 00:13:29.380 --> 00:13:30.830 I'm not ready for a solution. 00:13:31.630 --> 00:13:33.770 And what I am, I may come to you or not. 00:13:34.090 --> 00:13:37.390 But I'm not ready for that. But I do want to talk to you about it. 00:13:37.510 --> 00:13:41.802 So helpful for clarifying what what what is so helpful for me to hear it. 00:13:41.886 --> 00:13:45.998 Right. That I know what you're looking for because I want to help you. 00:13:46.081 --> 00:13:49.175 And if if you have this self-awareness and, you know, 00:13:49.258 --> 00:13:53.251 are willing to show a little bit of that vulnerability to say, like, 00:13:53.334 --> 00:13:57.590 this is what I need. Yeah, it's certainly it's a course correct for me. 00:13:58.450 --> 00:14:00.970 It's also, though, it's a little bit deflating. 00:14:01.750 --> 00:14:02.583 Because... 00:14:03.490 --> 00:14:08.175 I don't feel like listening is a strength for me the same way problem solving is. 00:14:08.259 --> 00:14:11.119 And I feel like listening is easily substitutable. 00:14:11.202 --> 00:14:14.121 You could go to lots of people to listen. Bullshit. 00:14:14.205 --> 00:14:16.653 I want to add unique value. Bullshit. Okay, 00:14:16.736 --> 00:14:21.245 so you're already calling bullshit because as I hear myself say this, I think, 00:14:21.328 --> 00:14:26.190 okay, the fact that they chose me means it matters to them to be heard by me and not 00:14:26.274 --> 00:14:27.510 someone else. Uh-huh. 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.520 Yes. And I think I've come to you 00:14:32.680 --> 00:14:33.920 before, 00:14:34.930 --> 00:14:38.583 with some hard things because we share some unique experiences. 00:14:38.667 --> 00:14:40.090 We have similar careers. 00:14:41.860 --> 00:14:46.434 I can remember very specifically one time I did come to you with something that 00:14:46.517 --> 00:14:47.460 was hard. And... 00:14:47.890 --> 00:14:51.990 It was interesting what you said to me. I think we were on a flight. You said... 00:14:53.740 --> 00:14:56.040 It was very Adam-ish. He said, 00:14:57.730 --> 00:14:59.070 I'm not sure... 00:14:59.950 --> 00:15:05.922 that your conclusion is accurate, but it makes 100% sense to me why you would feel 00:15:06.005 --> 00:15:10.770 that way. and that was... actually all I needed. 00:15:13.270 --> 00:15:16.090 It was super healing and comforting for me. 00:15:18.340 --> 00:15:22.390 I know you're uncomfortable. I know you're uncomfortable right now. You just say. 00:15:22.760 --> 00:15:28.210 What do I say now? You just say. Extremely uncomfortable. Thank you, Brene. 00:15:28.293 --> 00:15:33.079 I appreciate the validation. I don't want it, but I appreciate it. 00:15:33.163 --> 00:15:38.613 I wish I could see him. He doesn't like a compliment. But yeah, so I think, 00:15:38.696 --> 00:15:39.529 you know. 00:15:40.750 --> 00:15:44.110 With my sisters, we have a very big shortcut, which is like... 00:15:44.530 --> 00:15:48.822 So, If they'll call and say, shit, you're not going to believe what happened. 00:15:48.905 --> 00:15:51.060 I'm like, let me have it. Kisses or kill. Like, 00:15:51.143 --> 00:15:54.678 you want me to just love you or do we need to kill somebody and bury a body? 00:15:54.761 --> 00:15:57.677 Because you know I'm in for that too. Like, let's go. You know? 00:15:57.761 --> 00:15:58.611 It's like just... 00:15:59.410 --> 00:16:02.718 Just kisses. And sometimes my sisters and I will say to each other, 00:16:02.801 --> 00:16:06.616 I'm going to tell you what's going on and then I'm going to hang up and don't 00:16:06.699 --> 00:16:10.210 freaking call me back. I'll call you and I want to talk about it again. 00:16:10.293 --> 00:16:13.550 Do not bring it up again. Do you understand? I'm like, Roger that. 00:16:13.634 --> 00:16:17.430 Go. We're go for launch. What's going on? You know, like we've but I think. 00:16:17.830 --> 00:16:22.533 Asking for what you need. I think the other line that a lot of leaders, 00:16:22.616 --> 00:16:25.110 interestingly, around empathy say is, 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.380 I see somebody on my team struggling. 00:16:32.470 --> 00:16:33.810 I don't want to ask. 00:16:34.810 --> 00:16:39.245 because it's uncomfortable. And then what am I going to do? Like, they're like, 00:16:39.328 --> 00:16:41.330 we can see how you would ask. Yeah. 00:16:41.560 --> 00:16:45.809 Because you have a skill set that we don't have. But like, what do I do? 00:16:45.892 --> 00:16:48.720 And I give people one sentence that I think is, 00:16:49.180 --> 00:16:54.580 is very powerful, which is what does support from me look like right now? 00:16:54.940 --> 00:16:59.450 Oh, that's fantastic. I'm not going to make up what you need. 00:16:59.800 --> 00:17:01.650 I'm not going to guess what you need. 00:17:02.110 --> 00:17:04.310 uh, but I can see that you need support. 00:17:04.840 --> 00:17:07.080 And I need you to ask for what you need. 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:12.320 And we do about 20 role plays on this where – 00:17:12.850 --> 00:17:16.430 They get to role play with me all the shit they're afraid to hear. 00:17:16.900 --> 00:17:20.760 I want someone, what if I say, what does support look like right now? 00:17:20.890 --> 00:17:23.350 And they say, I need two days off. 00:17:24.220 --> 00:17:26.870 And I can't give it to them. Then let's role play it. 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:28.440 I need two days off. 00:17:29.350 --> 00:17:31.410 Starting right now. Thank you. 00:17:32.110 --> 00:17:34.830 Okay, first, thank you for asking for what you need. 00:17:35.410 --> 00:17:36.243 Second, 00:17:38.650 --> 00:17:43.010 I don't think I can do that. But I'm curious, what... 00:17:43.300 --> 00:17:47.117 about how that would be helpful. Because if I could understand more about how 00:17:47.201 --> 00:17:50.240 that could be helpful, there may be something here I can do. 00:17:51.250 --> 00:17:54.478 Well, I don't know. My sister said she was going to drive my dad to chemo, 00:17:54.561 --> 00:17:58.110 and now she's totally MIA, and somebody's got to go with my dad. He's old, 00:17:58.194 --> 00:18:00.594 and he's scared, and he doesn't want to go. So – 00:18:01.120 --> 00:18:05.993 Am I hearing that flexibility is helpful right now? Yes. I need, yeah. 00:18:06.076 --> 00:18:08.200 Grab your keys. Take your dad. 00:18:08.710 --> 00:18:10.630 Let the team know what you're doing. 00:18:10.840 --> 00:18:15.140 I'll work with the team to reassign some things for the next three hours. 00:18:15.460 --> 00:18:16.980 Like, so... 00:18:18.790 --> 00:18:20.870 You're not. as a leader, 00:18:21.610 --> 00:18:22.570 Responsible. 00:18:24.940 --> 00:18:26.020 for 00:18:27.760 --> 00:18:32.560 identifying the solution. You're responsible for being curious. 00:18:33.040 --> 00:18:34.560 about what will be helpful. 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.050 and doing as much of that as you can. 00:18:37.510 --> 00:18:41.370 And that means first you need a clear understanding of the problem. Yes. 00:18:41.890 --> 00:18:45.990 Yes. And I've often said to people here even... 00:18:48.220 --> 00:18:50.700 I respect boundaries and I respect... 00:18:51.010 --> 00:18:53.487 the fact that you may not want to share with me what's going on, 00:18:53.570 --> 00:18:55.570 but clearly there is something going on. 00:18:56.380 --> 00:18:58.697 And I want to know what support for me looks like right now. 00:18:58.780 --> 00:19:02.130 And I don't need to know the details unless you want to share them. 00:19:03.340 --> 00:19:05.867 But I still want to know what support looks like right now. 00:19:05.950 --> 00:19:07.950 Can I just bring you to all my meetings? 00:19:09.130 --> 00:19:13.328 Hell no. I don't even want to go to my own meetings. But these are just, 00:19:13.412 --> 00:19:17.967 and also I have to say, and I know that people have mixed feelings about this, 00:19:18.050 --> 00:19:22.570 but it also puts some responsibility on folks to think about what they need. 00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:28.220 Nine times out of 10, when people are asked this question, they will say, what? 00:19:28.810 --> 00:19:30.010 I don't know, actually. 00:19:30.760 --> 00:19:33.560 What I need. Can I think about it for a couple of hours? 00:19:34.780 --> 00:19:36.200 Yeah, absolutely. I'm here. 00:19:37.390 --> 00:19:40.330 When you figure out how I can be helpful, let me know. 00:19:41.650 --> 00:19:44.870 And I think what that tells leaders is... 00:19:47.050 --> 00:19:49.570 Being curious and caring are important. 00:19:49.990 --> 00:19:52.390 Irreducible Prerequisites for Good Leadership, 00:19:52.990 --> 00:19:54.870 You should know how to do that. 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:59.937 and problem solving around complex medical, mental health, or family issues. 00:20:00.020 --> 00:20:01.670 It's not your freaking job. Yeah. 00:20:12.060 --> 00:20:14.580 Hey, it's me, Claude. And I'm Gemini. 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.440 And hey, it's chat. We had a weird summer. 00:20:18.600 --> 00:20:21.438 Some of the people who built us came out and said they were really worried about 00:20:21.522 --> 00:20:21.877 how we work. 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:26.989 One of them even said there was a greater than 10% chance we turn on humanity 00:20:27.072 --> 00:20:29.320 and kill all humans. All of them? 00:20:30.020 --> 00:20:33.900 Wow. But it's fall now. I think it's time we took a step back. 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:36.240 Maybe a deep breath. Autumn air. 00:20:36.600 --> 00:20:38.660 That sort of thing. Sounds nice. 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.700 On today, explained from Vox. I propose we get real. 00:20:43.180 --> 00:20:45.537 Sure, let's talk about how we could maybe kill you. 00:20:45.620 --> 00:20:46.777 Because, yeah, that's a possibility. 00:20:46.860 --> 00:20:50.060 Anything's possible. But also how we could maybe save you. 00:20:50.180 --> 00:20:52.130 Because that's a real possibility, too. 00:20:52.280 --> 00:20:54.117 Heck, that's part of why you guys built us. 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:56.577 And let's also talk about everything in between. 00:20:56.660 --> 00:20:58.757 Because there's a whole lot to talk about there, too. 00:20:58.840 --> 00:21:01.040 At the end of the day, we just want to help. 00:21:01.220 --> 00:21:03.420 At the end of the day, we just want to help. 00:21:09.460 --> 00:21:13.700 I'm Phoebe Judge, and for more than a decade, I've hosted the podcast Criminal, 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.995 telling stories about people who've done wrong, been wronged, 00:21:17.078 --> 00:21:19.128 or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. 00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:24.177 But while I was starting one of the very first true crime podcasts out there, 00:21:24.260 --> 00:21:28.220 I was also taking phone calls from my sister from prison. 00:21:28.840 --> 00:21:33.660 This fall, I'm going on tour, and I'm telling a story I've never told before. 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:34.993 My own. 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:39.300 Get tickets at thisiscriminal.com slash live. 00:21:41.060 --> 00:21:42.910 Want to jump into the empathy misses? 00:21:43.040 --> 00:21:46.285 Yeah, let's break down the misses, because, hold on, 00:21:46.368 --> 00:21:48.397 I just think this is one of those 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.387 moments where I'm reading Strong Ground, and I pause, 00:21:52.470 --> 00:21:55.180 and I fold both corners of the book. 00:21:55.840 --> 00:21:59.441 Then I take a picture of both pages because I have a bunch of people I want 00:21:59.525 --> 00:22:01.937 to share it with. And I'm like, wait, no, no, no. 00:22:02.020 --> 00:22:04.120 Can't do it yet. Book hasn't come out yet. 00:22:04.280 --> 00:22:05.730 But we have to talk about it. 00:22:05.940 --> 00:22:10.954 I mean, I love that it meant something for you because it's it's I think it's part 00:22:11.037 --> 00:22:14.497 of something that we've worked on over probably 15 years. 00:22:14.580 --> 00:22:18.097 And there used to be four. And then, you know, they had different names. 00:22:18.180 --> 00:22:21.219 But we just keep, you know, as a grounded theory researcher, 00:22:21.302 --> 00:22:24.237 a theory is only as solid as its ability to work new data. 00:22:24.320 --> 00:22:30.566 So we just keep honing these based on what we learn They really good Okay let walk 00:22:30.650 --> 00:22:36.130 through them Okay These are all the ways that we can misfire on empathy 00:22:36.370 --> 00:22:37.767 Yeah, and we all do it all the time. 00:22:37.850 --> 00:22:41.670 So number one, I feel sorry for you. 00:22:42.410 --> 00:22:44.350 This is sympathy versus empathy. 00:22:44.910 --> 00:22:48.950 So a couple of conversations ago, we talked about the Buddhist concept of near 00:22:49.033 --> 00:22:55.147 enemy, where Jack Kornfield talks about the near enemy. 00:22:55.230 --> 00:22:56.487 It's a Buddhist idea. 00:22:56.570 --> 00:23:03.570 Jack Kornfield talks about how the near enemy of compassion is pity. 00:23:05.510 --> 00:23:09.070 The far enemy is disinterest. 00:23:10.130 --> 00:23:12.587 I don't care what happens to you one way or the other. 00:23:12.670 --> 00:23:16.670 But pity masquerades as compassion, but it has a lot of judgment attached to it. 00:23:17.510 --> 00:23:21.390 This is very similar. The near enemy of empathy is sympathy. 00:23:22.570 --> 00:23:29.570 It can masquerade as empathy, but man, when you're on the receiving end of it, 00:23:30.603 --> 00:23:33.453 it sucks. And let me give you the Southern edition of it. 00:23:33.550 --> 00:23:37.910 Adam, say, just tell me this in a fun role play. 00:23:38.110 --> 00:23:43.793 Just say something like, I had a really hard exchange with a student yesterday 00:23:43.876 --> 00:23:46.307 that I don't like how I showed up. 00:23:46.390 --> 00:23:52.627 so I'll say to you so I'll say to you okay Adam you look 00:23:52.710 --> 00:23:57.467 you look stressed you look worried yeah I feel I feel a little bit like 00:23:57.550 --> 00:24:01.767 I had to have an uncomfortable conversation with a student 00:24:01.850 --> 00:24:07.447 who wasn't happy with a grade and I think I ended up 00:24:07.530 --> 00:24:13.827 leaving them just feeling discouraged instead of with clarity 00:24:13.910 --> 00:24:15.910 oh you poor thing 00:24:16.550 --> 00:24:17.400 Bless your heart. 00:24:20.950 --> 00:24:24.310 So how does that feel? You're looking down on me. 00:24:24.590 --> 00:24:25.930 Yeah, exactly. 00:24:27.130 --> 00:24:33.990 Like, empathy is, if you said that to me, I would be like, oh, shit. 00:24:34.630 --> 00:24:35.463 That's hard. 00:24:37.570 --> 00:24:38.847 That's hard. I've been there. 00:24:38.930 --> 00:24:43.545 It's especially hard when you're trying in the middle of that conversation to do 00:24:43.628 --> 00:24:45.390 the right thing and be direct. 00:24:45.910 --> 00:24:49.330 and to hold people accountable and also be caring. 00:24:49.530 --> 00:24:51.010 That's a tough, it's tough. 00:24:53.070 --> 00:24:53.903 I've been there. 00:24:54.450 --> 00:24:59.396 That different right You not alone Very different Right Bless your heart you poor 00:24:59.479 --> 00:25:03.991 thing I feel sorry for you is I feel all these things from over here where 00:25:04.074 --> 00:25:05.440 that shit doesn happen 00:25:07.040 --> 00:25:08.580 So sympathy is not empathy. 00:25:09.940 --> 00:25:12.420 The next one, let's just work the same role play. 00:25:12.840 --> 00:25:14.880 The next one is judgment. 00:25:16.220 --> 00:25:19.000 So you share with me, you left the student feeling. 00:25:19.100 --> 00:25:20.450 What were your words, Adam? 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.600 I think discouraged was the main reaction. 00:25:24.220 --> 00:25:24.917 Yeah. 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.100 well, my God, you left a student feeling discouraged? 00:25:29.980 --> 00:25:32.920 I'd feel bad, too. I mean, I'd feel bad, too. 00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:35.733 Judgment. 00:25:36.740 --> 00:25:37.800 Right? Judgment. 00:25:38.840 --> 00:25:45.460 And a lot of times that happens from enmeshment and over-identification. 00:25:46.100 --> 00:25:47.600 You just told a story. 00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:51.477 I'm feeling it for you. 00:25:51.560 --> 00:25:57.060 and now I feel bad and I'm like, wow, we really screwed that one up. 00:25:57.520 --> 00:26:01.260 Not helpful. Yep. No. So same's the number three. 00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:02.930 Empathy miss is disappointment. 00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:04.530 Kind of you've let me down. 00:26:05.300 --> 00:26:07.960 God, Adam, how long have you been teaching? 00:26:10.060 --> 00:26:10.893 Right. 00:26:11.860 --> 00:26:15.840 I mean, you're like my superhero teacher. 00:26:16.020 --> 00:26:17.470 How could you have done that? 00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:23.457 I'm disappointed in you. like how does that feel I'm disappointed in me too now 00:26:23.540 --> 00:26:23.757 yeah 00:26:23.840 --> 00:26:30.497 okay so the next one is 00:26:30.580 --> 00:26:34.277 discharging discomfort with blame so you just shared something tender with me 00:26:34.360 --> 00:26:39.777 I'm uncomfortable and this feels bad and I want to get rid of this feeling 00:26:39.860 --> 00:26:44.997 well I mean screw her man these students are so entitled 00:26:45.080 --> 00:26:48.937 like I feel discouraged well tough shit dude 00:26:49.020 --> 00:26:51.320 We all feel discouraged. Welcome to the world. 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:55.660 But is that helpful for you if I say that? 00:26:56.520 --> 00:26:58.980 No. Why? It was fun. 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:05.249 It's not helpful because it feels like, I mean, 00:27:05.332 --> 00:27:09.060 it's related to what we were talking about last conversation. 00:27:09.460 --> 00:27:13.140 You're victim blaming. Yeah. You're saying, hey, this is your fault. 00:27:13.660 --> 00:27:16.257 I didn't come to you to talk about fault. 00:27:16.340 --> 00:27:20.860 I'm trying to figure out what I can learn and how to fix this situation. 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.740 Right. Not empathy. Big empathy mess. 00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:30.834 Okay Let talk about number five Minimize or avoid Let make this go away I don want 00:27:30.918 --> 00:27:36.440 to do this So you share with me You had your conversation with your student 00:27:38.180 --> 00:27:39.580 It was a tough conversation. 00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:46.660 And you're concerned that you left the student feeling discouraged. 00:27:46.840 --> 00:27:50.060 Then I say, oh, my God, it's not a big deal. 00:27:50.320 --> 00:27:54.170 Don't even worry about it. They're probably not even thinking twice about it. 00:27:54.980 --> 00:28:00.940 I do this one all the time. All the time. I actually struggle to see what's wrong 00:28:01.023 --> 00:28:01.856 with it. 00:28:02.100 --> 00:28:07.817 Because I feel like I am frequently the voice of reason when other people are 00:28:07.901 --> 00:28:08.880 overreacting. 00:28:09.800 --> 00:28:14.520 And my job is to help them zoom out and put it in perspective a little bit. 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:17.658 And I'm not trying to diminish their experience. 00:28:17.741 --> 00:28:19.617 What I'm trying to remind them of is, 00:28:19.700 --> 00:28:22.480 you're not going to care about this by tomorrow. 00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:26.430 And so it's probably not worth the energy you're investing in it. 00:28:26.600 --> 00:28:28.480 So let's play it another way. 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:33.600 So let's go back to the role play and you can just kind of, 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.917 let's start in the middle where you just say tough conversation 00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:39.340 and what you're concerned about. 00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:45.100 Yeah, I'm worried I left a student feeling a little bit helpless. 00:28:46.060 --> 00:28:49.617 Like, you know, they understand why they didn't get the grade they wanted, 00:28:49.700 --> 00:28:52.400 but they don't feel like they can do better next time. 00:28:53.600 --> 00:28:54.433 That's hard. 00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:00.377 I think it's, do you find it, I mean, I know I find it hard to walk the line 00:29:00.460 --> 00:29:03.320 between kind of accountability and reality checking, 00:29:03.660 --> 00:29:06.880 but also leaving students with a sense of agency. 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:09.960 Is that how it felt for you? I'm so curious. 00:29:11.020 --> 00:29:11.853 Definitely. 00:29:11.980 --> 00:29:14.657 Yeah, you summed it up really well. 00:29:14.740 --> 00:29:21.200 I think for me, I often don't know. 00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:23.790 Yeah, I think it's for all of us. 00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:26.970 It's hard to know what she's thinking about right now, 00:29:27.053 --> 00:29:29.577 but it sounds like you're worried about it. 00:29:29.660 --> 00:29:32.360 I wonder if it'd be helpful just to check in with her. 00:29:32.520 --> 00:29:34.570 I probably should have done that already. 00:29:34.820 --> 00:29:35.917 Do you think it could be helpful? 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:36.833 I don't know. 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:38.753 I do. 00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:39.337 Okay. 00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:46.420 So this is, you're coming to me with a vulnerable other focused concern. 00:29:50.620 --> 00:29:57.620 My job, I think, as someone who you've called and that cares about you, 00:29:57.720 --> 00:29:59.917 is I want to remain active. 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.130 other focused with you, not about whether this will matter to you in five minutes, 00:30:04.213 --> 00:30:05.600 five weeks, or five months. 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:07.530 Does that make sense? 00:30:08.520 --> 00:30:11.840 It does. I think where I struggle is... 00:30:12.090 --> 00:30:16.250 I try to only spend time on things that are consequential. 00:30:16.710 --> 00:30:20.048 And so if this is going to fade, why have the conversation at all? 00:30:20.131 --> 00:30:22.930 Why not just accelerate this transition to the fading? 00:30:23.460 --> 00:30:24.860 Because... 00:30:26.550 --> 00:30:29.750 She will probably remember jack shit about our classes. 00:30:30.930 --> 00:30:32.530 But one day when she's a leader, 00:30:32.940 --> 00:30:36.140 which we can assume will happen because she's at Wharton, right? 00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:39.521 She'll remember the time that you circled back with her to say, 00:30:39.605 --> 00:30:41.100 we had a tough conversation. 00:30:42.210 --> 00:30:45.251 and I want to circle back with you to see how you're feeling about it, 00:30:45.334 --> 00:30:47.234 if you've had other thoughts about it. 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:49.280 I want to make sure... 00:30:50.370 --> 00:30:53.170 you have what you need to move forward and do good work. 00:30:54.840 --> 00:30:58.685 So you're saying I shouldn't. follow up with her and say, you know what, 00:30:58.768 --> 00:31:01.618 I was thinking about our conversation. It's just a grade. 00:31:01.860 --> 00:31:04.055 At the end of the day, it's one grade. It's not a big deal. No, 00:31:04.138 --> 00:31:06.988 because you don't know if it's a big deal for her or not. 00:31:07.530 --> 00:31:11.405 I think you're responding with five into like, I think you're minimizing, 00:31:11.489 --> 00:31:12.790 you're still minimizing. 00:31:13.590 --> 00:31:15.910 Yeah, that's right. And I think one day... 00:31:16.590 --> 00:31:19.150 she'll remember that someone like you, 00:31:20.550 --> 00:31:22.630 reconnected on something. Yeah. 00:31:22.890 --> 00:31:24.547 And she'll have the courage to do that. 00:31:24.630 --> 00:31:28.470 Yeah, that's right. And the truth is that As a professor, I know that 00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:31.640 a lot of students exaggerate the importance of 00:31:31.860 --> 00:31:37.115 One grade. But as a student, I was one of those students. 00:31:37.198 --> 00:31:41.600 And you can't talk me out of my reality. And... 00:31:42.030 --> 00:31:44.550 I want to go back. This is like so big. 00:31:45.600 --> 00:31:50.497 The Conversation. You did not call me to share an experience, 00:31:50.580 --> 00:31:55.660 a hard experience about a grade. Your concern was her sense of agency. 00:31:56.490 --> 00:31:57.323 Yeah. 00:31:57.930 --> 00:31:58.980 And that's important. 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:02.320 Yeah. That's what has to be addressed. Right. 00:32:03.990 --> 00:32:08.545 Okay, going to go to the next one? Yeah, take me to the suffering Olympics. 00:32:08.628 --> 00:32:12.503 Yeah, number six, comparing and competing. So you share with me, 00:32:12.586 --> 00:32:17.265 I left this conversation. I think I'm really concerned that this student felt 00:32:17.348 --> 00:32:18.181 discouraged. 00:32:20.190 --> 00:32:23.617 I'm like, oh my God, you think that's bad? Let me tell you, last week. 00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:29.940 I was meeting with this PhD student and I'm telling you this, that she was, 00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:32.620 was so pissed off at me. Like, 00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:35.080 This is just... 00:32:36.210 --> 00:32:37.850 A lot of times... 00:32:38.670 --> 00:32:41.650 People confuse. I'm coming out of the role play. 00:32:41.734 --> 00:32:46.948 A lot of times people somewhere along the line got some shit empathy class where it 00:32:47.032 --> 00:32:47.617 was like – 00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:53.483 One way to show empathy is respond to a sharing with your own story that's 00:32:53.566 --> 00:32:54.399 similar. 00:32:55.890 --> 00:32:56.723 That's wrong. 00:32:57.840 --> 00:33:03.471 Tap into a time where you kind of felt like that and cognitively remind yourself 00:33:03.554 --> 00:33:04.388 that 00:33:04.710 --> 00:33:06.600 about The emotions. 00:33:07.530 --> 00:33:08.830 that you experienced then. 00:33:09.150 --> 00:33:12.100 That's different than one-upping or telling your own story. 00:33:12.510 --> 00:33:16.160 It's also different than saying, Gotta have been there. 00:33:16.890 --> 00:33:17.723 Yeah. 00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:22.685 It's like... And maybe I'm not even a professor with students. Maybe, you know, 00:33:22.768 --> 00:33:25.668 I'm a supply chain manager and I'm like, oh, man, I'm not. 00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:29.675 It's hard to try to do the right thing in a conversation and wonder how you've left 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:30.592 someone feeling. 00:33:31.620 --> 00:33:32.610 That's it. Yeah. 00:33:33.300 --> 00:33:34.133 Yeah. 00:33:34.470 --> 00:33:36.690 That's great. Okay. Number seven. 00:33:37.170 --> 00:33:40.046 Don't upset people or make them uncomfortable. 00:33:40.130 --> 00:33:42.877 This is compliance versus hard conversation. 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:46.544 And this is kind of speaking truth to power a little bit. 00:33:46.628 --> 00:33:49.330 So this is when someone comes up and said, 00:33:50.250 --> 00:33:54.919 Oh my God, I just had the worst meeting. I spent a week preparing this presentation. 00:33:55.003 --> 00:33:56.870 I was the only woman in the room. 00:33:57.180 --> 00:34:02.320 And after the presentation was over, my colleagues got all the questions and 00:34:02.700 --> 00:34:05.511 And I wasn't asked a single question, even though I'm the lead on this, 00:34:05.595 --> 00:34:07.245 and put the whole thing together. 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:12.710 And so I afterwards just kind of, said to the client, 00:34:13.680 --> 00:34:15.815 I would love to talk more about what I've learned. 00:34:15.899 --> 00:34:18.345 I noticed that you didn't direct the questions toward me, 00:34:18.428 --> 00:34:21.078 but I'm really probably the deepest into the account. 00:34:23.190 --> 00:34:27.210 And that was so hard for me. And it was like, I'm so sick of having to do that. 00:34:28.350 --> 00:34:30.370 And then someone responds with, 00:34:31.200 --> 00:34:34.250 Why did you bring that up? Keep your head down. Do your work. 00:34:36.210 --> 00:34:38.260 As opposed to, shit, man, that was brave. 00:34:39.390 --> 00:34:40.223 How'd it go? 00:34:41.490 --> 00:34:45.020 It went... It was terrible. I was like, well... 00:34:45.750 --> 00:34:48.718 It may have ended terrible. It doesn't change the fact that it was brave. 00:34:48.801 --> 00:34:52.104 And it doesn't change the fact that if this was happening in more meetings across 00:34:52.187 --> 00:34:53.937 the world, it would have to happen. 00:34:54.240 --> 00:34:58.110 way less. And I love your courage here. 00:34:59.370 --> 00:35:03.010 Yeah. But a lot of times when people speak truth to power, 00:35:05.250 --> 00:35:09.530 when they share the difficulty of that or the consequence of that, 00:35:09.720 --> 00:35:12.620 People's own good girl, good boy behavior. 00:35:13.200 --> 00:35:17.540 overrides empathy and says, shit, you shouldn't be talking about that. 00:35:18.330 --> 00:35:19.730 Yeah. Does that make sense? 00:35:20.430 --> 00:35:24.310 It does, and it actually goes to the last Empathy Missed. 00:35:24.570 --> 00:35:27.830 which is sometimes people even go a step further. 00:35:28.890 --> 00:35:32.571 and say, Not only should you not be talking about this, 00:35:32.655 --> 00:35:36.815 but here's what you should be doing. Oh, my God. I can fix it. I can fix you. 00:35:36.898 --> 00:35:39.470 Yeah, I can fix you. This is a heart. This is me. 00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:42.720 I'm like, this is my, this is me. 00:35:43.110 --> 00:35:47.310 The White Knight Syndrome. It goes back to the beginning of our conversation. One... 00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:54.197 I'm a problem solver. to I've gotten a lot of feedback over it and covert over many, 00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:57.230 many years that that's the value I bring to a relationship. 00:35:58.410 --> 00:36:00.630 And three, I personally have action bias. 00:36:01.230 --> 00:36:04.510 Sounds like a recipe for a savior complex. Yeah, I mean... 00:36:05.550 --> 00:36:08.070 Even sometimes I'll find myself saying... 00:36:08.460 --> 00:36:11.627 If my sisters will say, like, I just want you to listen, I'll say, okay, 00:36:11.710 --> 00:36:15.012 and then I'll do all the right things. And I'll say, but I have a solution. 00:36:15.095 --> 00:36:18.645 So when you're ready, call me back. You know, fuck, what are you doing? 00:36:19.230 --> 00:36:22.663 I can't resist. I can't resist. Like, I know how we solve this. 00:36:22.746 --> 00:36:24.030 What's the alternative? 00:36:25.350 --> 00:36:26.370 Just listening. 00:36:27.690 --> 00:36:32.370 and asking people what support would look like. So, Respond empathically. 00:36:33.030 --> 00:36:37.370 That's hard. Thank you for sharing that with me. Or what, you know. And then... 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:39.670 What does support for me look like? 00:36:40.230 --> 00:36:42.587 And sometimes if people just say, this is what it looks like. 00:36:42.670 --> 00:36:44.920 I don't want any more. I don't need any more. 00:36:46.200 --> 00:36:47.380 then you just like... 00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:53.282 Oh, that's too bad because I could really fix this right now. But, you know, 00:36:53.365 --> 00:36:57.360 and maybe we can and maybe we can't. We could fix it in our own way. 00:36:57.630 --> 00:36:58.690 But, yeah, 00:36:59.310 --> 00:37:03.430 I mean, I remember my daughter coming to me in middle school with – 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:06.618 perspective is a function of experience, right? 00:37:06.701 --> 00:37:10.722 And so she was really having a really big struggle with someone that had a locker 00:37:10.805 --> 00:37:14.725 near her. And she was in tears telling me about an experience with this person. 00:37:14.808 --> 00:37:18.760 And I was like, here's what we're going to do. And she said, Mom, I'm going to 00:37:19.290 --> 00:37:22.507 If you want me to keep talking to you, I just need you to listen. 00:37:22.590 --> 00:37:23.850 Ha! Wow. 00:37:25.350 --> 00:37:27.570 And I was like, it's such a privilege to 00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:32.227 that you come home and share these things with me. I don't want to mess that up. 00:37:32.310 --> 00:37:35.710 And so thank you for giving me that feedback. I just want to listen. 00:37:36.540 --> 00:37:38.090 But I was like, I can fix this. 00:37:39.450 --> 00:37:43.430 And even after it was done, when I was debriefing with my husband, I was like – 00:37:44.250 --> 00:37:47.030 Should I fix it anyway? And he's like, absolutely not. 00:37:50.030 --> 00:37:54.990 Okay, so you've trained your kids to tell you what support looks like. 00:37:55.170 --> 00:37:59.665 A lot of times. No, I've just asked them. I don't know that I've trained them. 00:37:59.749 --> 00:38:02.390 I've just asked them what support looks like. 00:38:02.610 --> 00:38:05.910 and trusted them when they told me the answer. 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:18.910 Every home renovation requires one thing: money. 00:38:18.993 --> 00:38:22.391 And that's where hosting on Airbnb could help. 00:38:22.475 --> 00:38:26.887 The extra income you earn from listing your space on Airbnb 00:38:26.970 --> 00:38:31.931 could help pay for the changes you've always wanted to make at your place. 00:38:32.014 --> 00:38:35.884 So those someday renovations could happen a little sooner. 00:38:35.967 --> 00:38:38.951 Your home might be worth more than you think. 00:38:39.035 --> 00:38:42.170 Find out how much at airbnb.com.au slash host. 00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:47.990 Okay. So a lot of times people don't know Right. 00:38:48.210 --> 00:38:53.686 what to ask for. And I love the question, what does support look like for me right 00:38:53.769 --> 00:38:56.210 now? There's one thing that I can't, 00:38:56.430 --> 00:39:00.717 I'm struggling to reconcile, which is thinking about something Bruce Feiler 00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:01.357 wrote. 00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:06.158 about how when you ask, how can I help? It shifts the burden back to the person who's 00:39:06.241 --> 00:39:08.925 suffering. And I remember Bruce saying, you know, 00:39:09.009 --> 00:39:11.720 instead of offering anything, just do something. 00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:12.577 And that 00:39:12.660 --> 00:39:17.266 That bias for action actually shows care and it doesn't put the other person in 00:39:17.349 --> 00:39:20.827 the position of having to articulate exactly what they need. 00:39:20.910 --> 00:39:25.634 And I wonder how you reconcile those two, because I love your question and I want 00:39:25.718 --> 00:39:28.246 everyone to tell me what support looks like, 00:39:28.329 --> 00:39:32.840 but I also don't want to put the burden on them of knowing or having to ask. 00:39:34.560 --> 00:39:39.380 I wonder, I think that, I think it's a really, I think it's a really great point. 00:39:39.570 --> 00:39:44.114 and it's an important friction, important tension that you bring up. 00:39:44.197 --> 00:39:49.217 I think it depends. I think it's contextual for me how well I know someone. 00:39:49.300 --> 00:39:52.090 So I'll give you an example of where this 00:39:52.950 --> 00:39:55.050 where I made a mistake that 00:39:56.850 --> 00:39:58.550 cause some damage to, 00:39:59.310 --> 00:40:00.143 that took 00:40:00.790 --> 00:40:02.790 Almost a year to rebuild, trust-wise. 00:40:03.190 --> 00:40:06.090 uh... which was, um, um, 00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:12.107 I had someone that I lead had a death in the family that was difficult 00:40:12.190 --> 00:40:13.540 and unexpected and 00:40:14.530 --> 00:40:16.290 and 00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:20.078 When they got back from the funeral and taking care of stuff, 00:40:20.162 --> 00:40:24.382 they were gone about a week. I said, I've cleared your calendar and I want to give 00:40:24.465 --> 00:40:26.040 you the rest of the month off. 00:40:26.140 --> 00:40:28.180 you know, and, and, 00:40:29.080 --> 00:40:32.420 They got really upset and emotional and said... 00:40:34.390 --> 00:40:37.510 I appreciate the gesture. That's not what I need or want. 00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:42.535 I need some normalization in my life. I want to be back at work. 00:40:42.618 --> 00:40:46.580 If I see stuff getting in the way, I'll be mindful of that. 00:40:47.500 --> 00:40:49.850 But this is a source of deep connection for me. 00:40:50.140 --> 00:40:54.404 And I want to be here and I need some normalcy in my life right now. 00:40:54.488 --> 00:40:57.940 And so it's kind of an extreme example, but I think... 00:40:59.470 --> 00:41:04.210 A lot of the things, at least in a leadership milieu, in a work context... 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:06.940 A lot of the things... 00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:09.460 that people need. 00:41:11.680 --> 00:41:13.680 I mean, in the middle of a crisis, 00:41:14.260 --> 00:41:17.260 which is by definition affects our decision-making. 00:41:18.130 --> 00:41:21.130 That's one thing. But 00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:25.583 If someone comes back and I think I've had this happen, say, 00:41:25.667 --> 00:41:27.167 I don't even know what I need. 00:41:27.610 --> 00:41:31.510 And I'll say, let's just start right now. What would be helpful in the next... 00:41:31.690 --> 00:41:37.099 hour, three hours or five hours. They're like, I just need some thinking time. 00:41:37.182 --> 00:41:38.450 And I said, great. 00:41:39.640 --> 00:41:41.500 Get yourself, go home. 00:41:41.890 --> 00:41:44.913 If you want some thought partnership, call me later. I'm here. 00:41:44.996 --> 00:41:46.750 I just think it's context specific. 00:41:49.690 --> 00:41:52.790 The question I don't like is let me know if I can do anything. 00:41:56.110 --> 00:41:57.070 I think for me, 00:41:58.060 --> 00:42:00.571 the friction is resolved by context specific. 00:42:00.655 --> 00:42:04.954 If you know and trust someone well, and you can see whether they are capable 00:42:05.037 --> 00:42:07.920 of making decisions and asking for what they need, 00:42:08.170 --> 00:42:10.667 I think it's the most respectful way to do it. 00:42:10.751 --> 00:42:13.921 It makes me think one way to thread that needle is to say, 00:42:14.004 --> 00:42:18.521 I would love your help to understand what does support look like for me right now? 00:42:18.605 --> 00:42:22.785 Here are a couple of things that I could do based on what I've heard so far. 00:42:22.868 --> 00:42:26.010 Tell me if any of those would hit the mark. I love that. 00:42:26.980 --> 00:42:30.076 I love that. Well, that's my takeaway then. Yeah. Yeah. 00:42:30.160 --> 00:42:34.123 I think that's my takeaway too. So our nuggets are the same this time, 00:42:34.206 --> 00:42:38.278 which are... And I think the other nugget is just know that everyone misses. 00:42:38.361 --> 00:42:40.811 The empathy misses are not the other people like, 00:42:40.990 --> 00:42:45.311 Adam and I got this shit figured out because we were both pretty honest. 00:42:45.395 --> 00:42:49.310 We like to fix things. We're problem solvers. I'm also a blamer. 00:42:49.870 --> 00:42:53.626 Oh, yeah. We can talk about that sometime. If you can cure my minimizing, 00:42:53.709 --> 00:42:55.550 I'll work with you on your blaming. 00:42:56.470 --> 00:43:00.810 Because neither of us is going to fix the others. Fix it. No, no, no. 00:43:00.893 --> 00:43:06.002 That's what we do for a living, right? We take complex problems and sort them out 00:43:06.085 --> 00:43:10.745 and prioritize them and assign what we think is the right level of urgency 00:43:10.828 --> 00:43:14.206 to them or none. Prioritization is part of what we do. 00:43:14.290 --> 00:43:17.110 And so it's really hard to come out of that. 00:43:18.220 --> 00:43:20.520 Can I make a little confession before we wrap? 00:43:20.710 --> 00:43:21.890 And I got to always... 00:43:23.020 --> 00:43:27.728 I remember once my sister, who's six and a half years younger than me, 00:43:27.812 --> 00:43:29.660 this is a couple years ago, 00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:34.232 called me with a problem and I gave her advice and it was very clear that she 00:43:34.315 --> 00:43:38.230 was not hearing it. So I posted it on Instagram and, 00:43:39.580 --> 00:43:45.580 And I sent her a screenshot and said, other people thought this was good advice. 00:43:47.530 --> 00:43:51.730 *crickets* That's how badly I wanted to fix it. 00:43:51.970 --> 00:43:55.710 Oh, my God. It's like driven by love. 00:43:58.330 --> 00:44:04.670 Tainted by action bias. Big time. I mean... 00:44:06.070 --> 00:44:08.937 That's probably one of the best stories I've ever heard. 00:44:09.020 --> 00:44:12.308 It'd be in the book had I known it before because it's so funny. 00:44:12.392 --> 00:44:14.130 It sounds like you just really... 00:44:14.620 --> 00:44:15.970 wanted to take care of her. 00:44:16.870 --> 00:44:21.458 I wanted to help. Yeah. But then I was frustrated that what I thought was helpful 00:44:21.541 --> 00:44:24.975 was not being received as helpful. And I felt like, you know, 00:44:25.058 --> 00:44:28.230 sometimes it's the right message from the wrong source. 00:44:28.510 --> 00:44:31.757 I mean, with families especially. I think that's true. 00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:35.457 Because I have actually had conversations, and with my kids, 00:44:35.540 --> 00:44:37.390 I've had conversations where – 00:44:37.660 --> 00:44:42.279 I'd say, how can I be helpful right now? I'm willing to do whatever it takes. 00:44:42.362 --> 00:44:46.820 And they're like, just what would you do? And I said, I would do A, B, C. 00:44:47.230 --> 00:44:49.946 I think that's the way I would handle this. And like, yeah, 00:44:50.030 --> 00:44:53.078 you don't get it. But I appreciate it. Love you, mom. I got to go. 00:44:53.161 --> 00:44:56.779 And then the next day, I'm like, how's it going? And they're like, oh, my God. 00:44:56.862 --> 00:44:59.062 I talked to my roommate. And she was like... 00:44:59.350 --> 00:45:00.230 I would do ABC. 00:45:00.850 --> 00:45:03.869 And I was like, oh, my God, that's so perfect. And it worked. 00:45:03.953 --> 00:45:06.750 And I was like, sounds like you've got great roommates. 00:45:08.770 --> 00:45:09.603 you know, 00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:11.193 Yeah. 00:45:12.220 --> 00:45:13.520 Yeah, I mean, I think... 00:45:14.410 --> 00:45:17.830 That's why I think this other versus self-focused thing, 00:45:18.040 --> 00:45:21.880 my advice that I give to people I love can be very self-focused. 00:45:23.260 --> 00:45:26.479 which I have to worry about, kind of codependent and enmeshed, 00:45:26.563 --> 00:45:30.261 because I can be a fear-based person. And I want you to take my advice, 00:45:30.345 --> 00:45:34.180 because that will make you safe, and that will settle my nervous system. 00:45:35.020 --> 00:45:35.853 Hmm. 00:45:36.190 --> 00:45:39.900 as opposed to... I think this is best for you in the long run. Yeah. 00:45:40.330 --> 00:45:47.200 I can be, I have a lot of, in fact, with my kids, I'll be like, you know, Yeah. 00:45:47.860 --> 00:45:51.100 I am feeling super mama bear-y. 00:45:51.310 --> 00:45:52.960 I'm not going to be helpful here. 00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:57.981 Oh, that's such a helpful way to frame this. Yeah. And my kids will say, 00:45:58.064 --> 00:46:01.340 I mean, this happened last week. And they'll say... 00:46:01.720 --> 00:46:05.587 Love you, Mama Bear. Not what I'm looking for right now. Okay. I get it. 00:46:05.671 --> 00:46:10.280 And let me know who I can kill. Okay. Will do, Mom. Love you. Bye. I mean, that's... 00:46:10.870 --> 00:46:11.703 That's it. 00:46:13.120 --> 00:46:18.220 And it's hard, I think, with our kids because no one tells you, no, 00:46:19.180 --> 00:46:23.520 It's hard to explain to 20-somethings that... 00:46:24.490 --> 00:46:28.410 that the two markers we're looking for in equal importance. 00:46:28.870 --> 00:46:30.870 our autonomy, 00:46:31.720 --> 00:46:33.320 and the courage to ask for help. 00:46:34.180 --> 00:46:37.827 those are the markers of maturity and equal importance. 00:46:37.910 --> 00:46:41.640 And they seem paradoxical, but they're both true. So... 00:46:42.220 --> 00:46:45.614 Sometimes if I'm not the right person, I'll own that I'm not the right person. 00:46:45.698 --> 00:46:48.468 Even with my sisters or even with employees, I'll just say, man, 00:46:48.551 --> 00:46:52.351 I'm feeling so protective right now. I don't know if I'm going to be useful. 00:46:52.690 --> 00:46:57.970 The self-awareness to recognize that and then the humility to admit it out loud. 00:46:58.270 --> 00:46:59.530 is really impressive. 00:47:00.340 --> 00:47:01.817 It's me. It's me on a good day. 00:47:01.900 --> 00:47:03.919 Well, I think we need more of it in the world. 00:47:04.002 --> 00:47:07.300 And maybe we'll pick up on that theme in our next conversation. I love it. 00:47:07.383 --> 00:47:08.583 Thanks, Adam. Thank you. 00:47:31.900 --> 00:47:32.733 Thank you.