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Yep, the groceries, 11 00:00:35,113 --> 00:00:40,019 or even the mortgage, could be supported with the extra cash you earn from listing 12 00:00:40,102 --> 00:00:44,156 your home on Airbnb. Whether it's your whole home while you're away, 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,963 or a spare room when you're in town, hosting is a smart way to earn a bit extra 14 00:00:49,047 --> 00:00:52,493 on the side. Your home might be worth more than you think. 15 00:00:52,576 --> 00:00:55,740 Find out how much at airbnb.com.au slash host. Music 16 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:03,640 Hi, everyone. This is Dare to Lead and I'm Brene Brown. And with me today again... 17 00:01:07,350 --> 00:01:09,610 My friend, Adam Grant. Hi, Adam. Hey, Brune. 18 00:01:09,693 --> 00:01:12,250 I'm still recovering from our last conversation. 19 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,500 Me too. You know, it's had me actually thinking about the previous conversation. 20 00:01:18,390 --> 00:01:20,250 When you were talking about 21 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:25,950 Steve's experience with medical residents not knowing when parents want support 22 00:01:26,033 --> 00:01:30,010 versus solutions. Mm hmm. And I, It seems like... 23 00:01:30,390 --> 00:01:33,051 There's something we haven't talked about yet, 24 00:01:33,135 --> 00:01:37,347 even though we've talked about empathy now in a couple of conversations, 25 00:01:37,431 --> 00:01:42,061 which is the tactical skills of being able to understand what other people need 26 00:01:42,145 --> 00:01:46,775 and want. And I would love to talk about that because I think one of the things 27 00:01:46,858 --> 00:01:51,369 I've been seeing for years now is I'll go give a speech at a conference or at 28 00:01:51,453 --> 00:01:56,203 a workplace. And your team has been there doing dare to lead training and they're 29 00:01:56,286 --> 00:01:59,150 raving about the empathy skills they've learned. 30 00:01:59,580 --> 00:02:04,986 Like, wait, empathy is a skill set. And then I'm reading strong ground and you 31 00:02:05,070 --> 00:02:10,265 have this this whole list of empathy misses that I feel like is the missing 32 00:02:10,348 --> 00:02:11,181 link. 33 00:02:11,460 --> 00:02:13,360 in so many people's 34 00:02:13,530 --> 00:02:17,332 efforts to show empathy to others. And I would love to talk about those. 35 00:02:17,416 --> 00:02:20,330 Can we talk about those? Yeah, let's do it. Because... 36 00:02:20,670 --> 00:02:25,252 It's interesting when we do the Dare to Lead training, we often ask, 37 00:02:25,335 --> 00:02:30,602 what is it like when you share something, when you're vulnerable and you share 38 00:02:30,686 --> 00:02:33,910 something that's really difficult with someone? 39 00:02:34,410 --> 00:02:36,690 and you feel heard and seen. 40 00:02:37,230 --> 00:02:41,730 And I always ask folks, just shout out words. And people will say... 41 00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:46,377 relief, warmth, connection, trust, love. And then I say, 42 00:02:46,460 --> 00:02:52,427 what does it feel like when you share something that's difficult with someone 43 00:02:52,510 --> 00:02:56,591 and they either don't get it, they're not interested, 44 00:02:56,674 --> 00:03:02,798 or they make it about themselves? And the words that people shout out are cold, 45 00:03:02,881 --> 00:03:09,326 regret, regret. hangover. I hate you. You know, it's like, and the problem is, 46 00:03:09,409 --> 00:03:13,950 I think that the messy thing about being human is that, 47 00:03:14,490 --> 00:03:18,590 Many times we are the folks that have the courage to share something difficult and 48 00:03:19,620 --> 00:03:23,824 Many times we are the people that hear something difficult from someone we care 49 00:03:23,907 --> 00:03:27,760 about and really show up in a great way. And many times we screw it up. 50 00:03:28,170 --> 00:03:33,551 So one of the things that's kind of a classic dare to lead tool is we have a big 51 00:03:33,634 --> 00:03:36,230 sign when we get to the empathy group. 52 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,640 section of our work that says... 53 00:03:40,140 --> 00:03:44,050 I commit... Choo! Practicing empathy. 54 00:03:44,670 --> 00:03:46,630 screwing up and trying again. 55 00:03:47,010 --> 00:03:50,090 and everybody signs it on their way to break because it's like you're just not 56 00:03:50,174 --> 00:03:51,624 going to always get it right. 57 00:03:52,710 --> 00:03:55,927 And some of my most fun stories are early in my career, 58 00:03:56,010 --> 00:03:58,507 I taught a class for incoming MSW students, 59 00:03:58,590 --> 00:04:03,127 Masters of Social Work students, and we did a lot of empathy skills building. 60 00:04:03,210 --> 00:04:07,657 And in the beginning, they would have role plays and it would be like, wow. 61 00:04:07,740 --> 00:04:08,573 you know, 62 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:14,710 Mr. Grant comes and is having this issue and you could just see them. Oh, 63 00:04:14,793 --> 00:04:15,627 Mr. Grant. 64 00:04:16,410 --> 00:04:20,210 I am so sorry. You must be feeling... 65 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:27,795 dejected and full of despair. It was like so shitty and terrible. 66 00:04:27,878 --> 00:04:34,200 And they're like, oh, When does this get better. And I said, 67 00:04:35,010 --> 00:04:38,811 It's skills building and muscle memory. You don't think of the 45 actions it takes 68 00:04:38,894 --> 00:04:40,494 to make a left turn in your car. 69 00:04:40,590 --> 00:04:44,483 You just do it. And I think it's a skill that you have to build. 70 00:04:44,567 --> 00:04:48,087 So we can jump into it. Let me, let me. I love this. Yeah. 71 00:04:48,170 --> 00:04:51,120 Let me start by saying that. Yeah. 72 00:04:52,140 --> 00:04:54,690 Last time we talked about the difference between... 73 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,294 Affective empathy and cognitive empathy. Affective empathy is, I think, 74 00:04:59,377 --> 00:05:02,591 very dangerous. It's I'm going to feel what you feel. 75 00:05:02,674 --> 00:05:06,075 I don't know where I end and you begin. It's enmeshment. 76 00:05:06,158 --> 00:05:09,434 It's over-identification. If the story is really hard, 77 00:05:09,518 --> 00:05:14,038 it can be secondary trauma. And it actually drives disconnection and a lot 78 00:05:14,121 --> 00:05:18,517 of unhealthy, unproductive behavior. Cognitive empathy drives connection 79 00:05:18,601 --> 00:05:23,640 and trust. It's the ability to draw from my own experiences and acknowledge that. 80 00:05:25,890 --> 00:05:27,190 what you might be feeling, 81 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:31,519 without feeling it. And it does require some emotional granularity, 82 00:05:31,602 --> 00:05:35,214 like Susan David's work from Harvard. It requires that you have a pretty 83 00:05:35,298 --> 00:05:37,710 sophisticated lexicon about different emotions. 84 00:05:38,310 --> 00:05:43,373 Yeah. So when we teach empathy, we teach kind of five skill sets, 85 00:05:43,456 --> 00:05:45,580 which is one perspective taking. 86 00:05:47,190 --> 00:05:48,023 This is 87 00:05:48,510 --> 00:05:52,498 I want to dig into this for a minute with you because I think it's interesting. 88 00:05:52,582 --> 00:05:53,870 I hate when people say... 89 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,420 Empathy is walking in someone else's shoes. 90 00:06:00,150 --> 00:06:01,850 A, gross, I don't want to do that. 91 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:08,100 I'm not a shushier. You don't want my foot fungus? I don't want your foot fungus. 92 00:06:08,850 --> 00:06:11,331 Taking that very personally. Yeah. I mean, I really don't. 93 00:06:11,415 --> 00:06:13,984 The only thing that's good, because I raise little swimmers, 94 00:06:14,067 --> 00:06:17,389 and the only thing that's good is I know you spend a lot of time in chlorine, 95 00:06:17,472 --> 00:06:18,305 so maybe. 96 00:06:20,050 --> 00:06:20,883 But... 97 00:06:21,750 --> 00:06:23,800 It's trickier than walking in your shoes. 98 00:06:24,690 --> 00:06:28,950 It's listening to your experience of you walking in your shoes. 99 00:06:29,460 --> 00:06:31,720 and believing that experience. 100 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:34,630 whether it matches my lived experiences or not. 101 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,155 Does that make sense to you? Oh, it does. Okay. 102 00:06:39,238 --> 00:06:42,337 It makes me think about two things. One is, 103 00:06:42,420 --> 00:06:46,120 do you remember the great Jack Handy line about... 104 00:06:46,980 --> 00:06:49,180 Walking a mile in somebody else's shoes? No. 105 00:06:49,770 --> 00:06:52,622 Oh, it goes something like, before you criticize someone, 106 00:06:52,705 --> 00:06:56,381 you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, 107 00:06:56,464 --> 00:06:58,730 you're a mile away and you have their shoes. 108 00:07:02,340 --> 00:07:06,729 I freaking love that. That's the only thing good about walking in someone else's 109 00:07:06,813 --> 00:07:10,252 shoes. You get to steal them. That's it. That just made my day. 110 00:07:10,335 --> 00:07:12,879 That is so funny. Okay, on a more serious note, 111 00:07:12,963 --> 00:07:17,017 it makes me think about some research that Nick Epley did on what he calls 112 00:07:17,100 --> 00:07:21,378 perspective mistaking as opposed to perspective taking where I think it was 25 113 00:07:21,461 --> 00:07:24,173 experiments when people tried to perspective take, 114 00:07:24,256 --> 00:07:27,024 the more different they were from the other person, 115 00:07:27,108 --> 00:07:31,860 the more likely they were to misunderstand the other person's perspective. Of course. 116 00:07:32,340 --> 00:07:36,573 come away with this false sense that I get it because I've tried to walk in 117 00:07:36,657 --> 00:07:40,544 your shoes, but I don't really know what it's like to think like you. 118 00:07:40,628 --> 00:07:44,573 And I haven't, I haven't accepted the, the, the whole premise of your, 119 00:07:44,657 --> 00:07:48,340 of your experience. And so I don't, I don't really get it, but I 120 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:54,978 I love the way that you described this. Even if it's not my lived experience, 121 00:07:55,061 --> 00:08:00,180 I understand and accept your experience. Yeah, I believe you. 122 00:08:01,170 --> 00:08:02,190 I believe you. 123 00:08:03,540 --> 00:08:06,220 I mean, I'll just give you a quick example. 124 00:08:07,290 --> 00:08:09,590 Steve and I were talking about... 125 00:08:10,890 --> 00:08:13,410 running to the mall and, 126 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,880 And I was like, I don't think I want to go. It's already dark. And he's like... 127 00:08:18,420 --> 00:08:20,110 It's like, 830. 128 00:08:20,940 --> 00:08:24,107 And I said, my experience in the mall parking lot is not your experience in 129 00:08:24,190 --> 00:08:25,240 the mall parking lot. 130 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,820 And he thought about it for a second and he said, 131 00:08:31,260 --> 00:08:32,093 A. 132 00:08:32,340 --> 00:08:35,070 I'll direct quote. I fucking hate that. 133 00:08:35,670 --> 00:08:36,720 and be I Believe You. 134 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,543 you know, And that's not like I need you to put on, you know, 135 00:08:42,626 --> 00:08:46,621 I need you to put on my ballet flats and go to the mall and see what it's like 136 00:08:46,704 --> 00:08:49,444 because he's still a six foot one dude that, you know, 137 00:08:49,527 --> 00:08:51,097 there's people like weird shoes. 138 00:08:51,180 --> 00:08:55,885 But – He just believes my experience, even though it's not his. 139 00:08:55,968 --> 00:08:58,680 So perspective taking, staying out of judgment, 140 00:08:59,940 --> 00:09:01,897 not putting value on what you're hearing. 141 00:09:01,980 --> 00:09:03,480 Recognizing emotion. 142 00:09:04,590 --> 00:09:07,740 Number four, communicating our understanding about the emotion. 143 00:09:09,780 --> 00:09:13,720 And sometimes, you know, I write this in Strong Ground, that, 144 00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:16,467 Sometimes my sister will call and say, God, 145 00:09:16,550 --> 00:09:19,123 you're not going to believe what just happened. I'm like, tell me. 146 00:09:19,206 --> 00:09:21,757 What I usually say, just to be honest with you, is I'll... 147 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,540 Tell me and tell me what you want. 148 00:09:23,970 --> 00:09:28,002 And she'll say, I just want you to listen. And then I'm going to hang up. 149 00:09:28,086 --> 00:09:31,554 I don't want to talk about it right now. Gotcha. On it. Say it. 150 00:09:31,638 --> 00:09:34,712 And sometimes if she'll say, this is what just happened. 151 00:09:34,795 --> 00:09:36,430 And it was super hard. And... 152 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,340 And I'll just say, oh, shit. 153 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,120 And she's like, thanks. I can tell you get it. 154 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:49,806 And that's not like, oh, what I hear you saying is a mixture of overwhelm with 155 00:09:49,889 --> 00:09:54,831 a slight tinge of anguish rising. Sometimes it's just you can convey very 156 00:09:54,915 --> 00:09:59,927 simply. I mean, think about a 12-step group. You're sitting there, you're 157 00:10:00,010 --> 00:10:01,570 telling really hard stories. 158 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,679 And there's no crosstalk in those groups. But you're sitting with a group of people 159 00:10:05,763 --> 00:10:08,963 who are drinking black coffee and smoking cigarettes and going – 160 00:10:09,250 --> 00:10:11,610 With their face and eyes only. Oh, man. 161 00:10:12,790 --> 00:10:14,490 That's that's shitty. That's hard. 162 00:10:14,650 --> 00:10:19,916 That's enough. And then the last skill that I add is actually from Kristen Neff's 163 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,565 work. which is practicing mindfulness, not pushing away emotion because it's 164 00:10:24,648 --> 00:10:29,320 uncomfortable, but feeling it and moving through it and not staying stuck in it. 165 00:10:30,940 --> 00:10:33,800 So this gets to our conversation, I think, last time too. 166 00:10:33,884 --> 00:10:36,641 So if I share something with you and you identify, wow, 167 00:10:36,724 --> 00:10:38,480 I'm going to be a little bit more. 168 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,750 I could see how that would feel lonely. 169 00:10:45,220 --> 00:10:49,280 If I measured you, you'd have zero feelings of loneliness yourself. 170 00:10:50,110 --> 00:10:50,943 Yeah. 171 00:10:51,820 --> 00:10:54,420 Because you're not making yourself feel what I feel. 172 00:10:54,550 --> 00:10:59,210 You're reflecting cognitively from your internal encyclopedia of emotion and 173 00:11:00,430 --> 00:11:04,983 what that must be and what's so helpful about empathy. If I go, no, Adam, 174 00:11:05,066 --> 00:11:07,670 I didn't feel lonely. Like I felt like... 175 00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:10,340 I actually felt scared. 176 00:11:11,950 --> 00:11:14,600 And then you say... Wow, say more. 177 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,273 I am loving you, trusting you, and connecting with you in that moment because 178 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:21,106 you're curious about my experience. 179 00:11:21,580 --> 00:11:24,050 Thank you. And... 180 00:11:24,940 --> 00:11:26,660 If and when you get it wrong... 181 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:33,047 And it's, You call me a couple hours later and say, Ben, 182 00:11:33,131 --> 00:11:36,000 you shared something really hard with me. I wonder... 183 00:11:37,270 --> 00:11:40,170 I think I wish I would have shown up a little bit differently when you did that. 184 00:11:40,253 --> 00:11:42,153 Do you have a minute to talk about it? 185 00:11:42,430 --> 00:11:45,430 You know what that is? That's love and trust and connection. 186 00:11:46,090 --> 00:11:50,140 We're not going to get this right. And so you want to talk about the misses? Yes. 187 00:11:50,620 --> 00:11:53,200 Definitely, because I have to tell you, I... 188 00:11:53,830 --> 00:11:56,250 I'm guilty of empathy misses a lot. 189 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:03,590 Thank you. End. I see actually myself in several of these, but the... 190 00:12:03,940 --> 00:12:05,020 I think that the... 191 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:10,315 The repeated trap that I find myself falling in is I jump right to solutions. 192 00:12:10,398 --> 00:12:13,420 Mm-hmm. Forgetting that somebody just wants support. 193 00:12:14,140 --> 00:12:15,140 And, you know, 194 00:12:15,310 --> 00:12:18,245 I have a really hard time relating to that because I would never tell someone 195 00:12:18,328 --> 00:12:20,728 a problem unless I wanted their help solving it. 196 00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:22,030 I think... 197 00:12:22,750 --> 00:12:26,534 I get that because I'm also, I have a lot of action bias myself. 198 00:12:26,618 --> 00:12:29,254 I don't know if you'd call yours action bias, 199 00:12:29,337 --> 00:12:33,870 so I don't want to put that on you, but I have a lot of action bias. And... 200 00:12:34,210 --> 00:12:36,497 There's three things that make it complicated for me. 201 00:12:36,580 --> 00:12:38,942 when you call me and tell me something hard. One, 202 00:12:39,026 --> 00:12:42,126 I have a lot of action bias. Two, I have a lot of action bias. 203 00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:45,780 Problem solving is probably one of my strong suits. 204 00:12:46,270 --> 00:12:47,870 And three... 205 00:12:48,340 --> 00:12:53,454 I have decades of feedback that tell me that that's the value I add in a lot 206 00:12:53,537 --> 00:12:54,700 of relationships. 207 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,540 I mean, story of my life, all three of those. Yes. Yeah. So... 208 00:13:01,090 --> 00:13:03,350 One of the things with the people – 209 00:13:04,180 --> 00:13:08,960 that I love the most in my life, my family, my kids, Steve. 210 00:13:09,550 --> 00:13:15,789 is... we are very explicit with each other. It's a practice that we put in. 211 00:13:15,872 --> 00:13:18,460 It's a practice we put in at work too is – 212 00:13:19,090 --> 00:13:21,527 I'm really struggling. I'd like to share it with you. 213 00:13:21,610 --> 00:13:24,130 And what would be helpful for me is, 214 00:13:25,660 --> 00:13:26,740 is... 215 00:13:27,940 --> 00:13:28,773 Just to listen. 216 00:13:29,380 --> 00:13:30,830 I'm not ready for a solution. 217 00:13:31,630 --> 00:13:33,770 And what I am, I may come to you or not. 218 00:13:34,090 --> 00:13:37,390 But I'm not ready for that. But I do want to talk to you about it. 219 00:13:37,510 --> 00:13:41,802 So helpful for clarifying what what what is so helpful for me to hear it. 220 00:13:41,886 --> 00:13:45,998 Right. That I know what you're looking for because I want to help you. 221 00:13:46,081 --> 00:13:49,175 And if if you have this self-awareness and, you know, 222 00:13:49,258 --> 00:13:53,251 are willing to show a little bit of that vulnerability to say, like, 223 00:13:53,334 --> 00:13:57,590 this is what I need. Yeah, it's certainly it's a course correct for me. 224 00:13:58,450 --> 00:14:00,970 It's also, though, it's a little bit deflating. 225 00:14:01,750 --> 00:14:02,583 Because... 226 00:14:03,490 --> 00:14:08,175 I don't feel like listening is a strength for me the same way problem solving is. 227 00:14:08,259 --> 00:14:11,119 And I feel like listening is easily substitutable. 228 00:14:11,202 --> 00:14:14,121 You could go to lots of people to listen. Bullshit. 229 00:14:14,205 --> 00:14:16,653 I want to add unique value. Bullshit. Okay, 230 00:14:16,736 --> 00:14:21,245 so you're already calling bullshit because as I hear myself say this, I think, 231 00:14:21,328 --> 00:14:26,190 okay, the fact that they chose me means it matters to them to be heard by me and not 232 00:14:26,274 --> 00:14:27,510 someone else. Uh-huh. 233 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,520 Yes. And I think I've come to you 234 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:33,920 before, 235 00:14:34,930 --> 00:14:38,583 with some hard things because we share some unique experiences. 236 00:14:38,667 --> 00:14:40,090 We have similar careers. 237 00:14:41,860 --> 00:14:46,434 I can remember very specifically one time I did come to you with something that 238 00:14:46,517 --> 00:14:47,460 was hard. And... 239 00:14:47,890 --> 00:14:51,990 It was interesting what you said to me. I think we were on a flight. You said... 240 00:14:53,740 --> 00:14:56,040 It was very Adam-ish. He said, 241 00:14:57,730 --> 00:14:59,070 I'm not sure... 242 00:14:59,950 --> 00:15:05,922 that your conclusion is accurate, but it makes 100% sense to me why you would feel 243 00:15:06,005 --> 00:15:10,770 that way. and that was... actually all I needed. 244 00:15:13,270 --> 00:15:16,090 It was super healing and comforting for me. 245 00:15:18,340 --> 00:15:22,390 I know you're uncomfortable. I know you're uncomfortable right now. You just say. 246 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:28,210 What do I say now? You just say. Extremely uncomfortable. Thank you, Brene. 247 00:15:28,293 --> 00:15:33,079 I appreciate the validation. I don't want it, but I appreciate it. 248 00:15:33,163 --> 00:15:38,613 I wish I could see him. He doesn't like a compliment. But yeah, so I think, 249 00:15:38,696 --> 00:15:39,529 you know. 250 00:15:40,750 --> 00:15:44,110 With my sisters, we have a very big shortcut, which is like... 251 00:15:44,530 --> 00:15:48,822 So, If they'll call and say, shit, you're not going to believe what happened. 252 00:15:48,905 --> 00:15:51,060 I'm like, let me have it. Kisses or kill. Like, 253 00:15:51,143 --> 00:15:54,678 you want me to just love you or do we need to kill somebody and bury a body? 254 00:15:54,761 --> 00:15:57,677 Because you know I'm in for that too. Like, let's go. You know? 255 00:15:57,761 --> 00:15:58,611 It's like just... 256 00:15:59,410 --> 00:16:02,718 Just kisses. And sometimes my sisters and I will say to each other, 257 00:16:02,801 --> 00:16:06,616 I'm going to tell you what's going on and then I'm going to hang up and don't 258 00:16:06,699 --> 00:16:10,210 freaking call me back. I'll call you and I want to talk about it again. 259 00:16:10,293 --> 00:16:13,550 Do not bring it up again. Do you understand? I'm like, Roger that. 260 00:16:13,634 --> 00:16:17,430 Go. We're go for launch. What's going on? You know, like we've but I think. 261 00:16:17,830 --> 00:16:22,533 Asking for what you need. I think the other line that a lot of leaders, 262 00:16:22,616 --> 00:16:25,110 interestingly, around empathy say is, 263 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,380 I see somebody on my team struggling. 264 00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:33,810 I don't want to ask. 265 00:16:34,810 --> 00:16:39,245 because it's uncomfortable. And then what am I going to do? Like, they're like, 266 00:16:39,328 --> 00:16:41,330 we can see how you would ask. Yeah. 267 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,809 Because you have a skill set that we don't have. But like, what do I do? 268 00:16:45,892 --> 00:16:48,720 And I give people one sentence that I think is, 269 00:16:49,180 --> 00:16:54,580 is very powerful, which is what does support from me look like right now? 270 00:16:54,940 --> 00:16:59,450 Oh, that's fantastic. I'm not going to make up what you need. 271 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:01,650 I'm not going to guess what you need. 272 00:17:02,110 --> 00:17:04,310 uh, but I can see that you need support. 273 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,080 And I need you to ask for what you need. 274 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:12,320 And we do about 20 role plays on this where – 275 00:17:12,850 --> 00:17:16,430 They get to role play with me all the shit they're afraid to hear. 276 00:17:16,900 --> 00:17:20,760 I want someone, what if I say, what does support look like right now? 277 00:17:20,890 --> 00:17:23,350 And they say, I need two days off. 278 00:17:24,220 --> 00:17:26,870 And I can't give it to them. Then let's role play it. 279 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:28,440 I need two days off. 280 00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:31,410 Starting right now. Thank you. 281 00:17:32,110 --> 00:17:34,830 Okay, first, thank you for asking for what you need. 282 00:17:35,410 --> 00:17:36,243 Second, 283 00:17:38,650 --> 00:17:43,010 I don't think I can do that. But I'm curious, what... 284 00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:47,117 about how that would be helpful. Because if I could understand more about how 285 00:17:47,201 --> 00:17:50,240 that could be helpful, there may be something here I can do. 286 00:17:51,250 --> 00:17:54,478 Well, I don't know. My sister said she was going to drive my dad to chemo, 287 00:17:54,561 --> 00:17:58,110 and now she's totally MIA, and somebody's got to go with my dad. He's old, 288 00:17:58,194 --> 00:18:00,594 and he's scared, and he doesn't want to go. So – 289 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:05,993 Am I hearing that flexibility is helpful right now? Yes. I need, yeah. 290 00:18:06,076 --> 00:18:08,200 Grab your keys. Take your dad. 291 00:18:08,710 --> 00:18:10,630 Let the team know what you're doing. 292 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,140 I'll work with the team to reassign some things for the next three hours. 293 00:18:15,460 --> 00:18:16,980 Like, so... 294 00:18:18,790 --> 00:18:20,870 You're not. as a leader, 295 00:18:21,610 --> 00:18:22,570 Responsible. 296 00:18:24,940 --> 00:18:26,020 for 297 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,560 identifying the solution. You're responsible for being curious. 298 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:34,560 about what will be helpful. 299 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,050 and doing as much of that as you can. 300 00:18:37,510 --> 00:18:41,370 And that means first you need a clear understanding of the problem. Yes. 301 00:18:41,890 --> 00:18:45,990 Yes. And I've often said to people here even... 302 00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:50,700 I respect boundaries and I respect... 303 00:18:51,010 --> 00:18:53,487 the fact that you may not want to share with me what's going on, 304 00:18:53,570 --> 00:18:55,570 but clearly there is something going on. 305 00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:58,697 And I want to know what support for me looks like right now. 306 00:18:58,780 --> 00:19:02,130 And I don't need to know the details unless you want to share them. 307 00:19:03,340 --> 00:19:05,867 But I still want to know what support looks like right now. 308 00:19:05,950 --> 00:19:07,950 Can I just bring you to all my meetings? 309 00:19:09,130 --> 00:19:13,328 Hell no. I don't even want to go to my own meetings. But these are just, 310 00:19:13,412 --> 00:19:17,967 and also I have to say, and I know that people have mixed feelings about this, 311 00:19:18,050 --> 00:19:22,570 but it also puts some responsibility on folks to think about what they need. 312 00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:28,220 Nine times out of 10, when people are asked this question, they will say, what? 313 00:19:28,810 --> 00:19:30,010 I don't know, actually. 314 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,560 What I need. Can I think about it for a couple of hours? 315 00:19:34,780 --> 00:19:36,200 Yeah, absolutely. I'm here. 316 00:19:37,390 --> 00:19:40,330 When you figure out how I can be helpful, let me know. 317 00:19:41,650 --> 00:19:44,870 And I think what that tells leaders is... 318 00:19:47,050 --> 00:19:49,570 Being curious and caring are important. 319 00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:52,390 Irreducible Prerequisites for Good Leadership, 320 00:19:52,990 --> 00:19:54,870 You should know how to do that. 321 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,937 and problem solving around complex medical, mental health, or family issues. 322 00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:01,670 It's not your freaking job. Yeah. 323 00:20:12,060 --> 00:20:14,580 Hey, it's me, Claude. And I'm Gemini. 324 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,440 And hey, it's chat. We had a weird summer. 325 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,438 Some of the people who built us came out and said they were really worried about 326 00:20:21,522 --> 00:20:21,877 how we work. 327 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,989 One of them even said there was a greater than 10% chance we turn on humanity 328 00:20:27,072 --> 00:20:29,320 and kill all humans. All of them? 329 00:20:30,020 --> 00:20:33,900 Wow. But it's fall now. I think it's time we took a step back. 330 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,240 Maybe a deep breath. Autumn air. 331 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,660 That sort of thing. Sounds nice. 332 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,700 On today, explained from Vox. I propose we get real. 333 00:20:43,180 --> 00:20:45,537 Sure, let's talk about how we could maybe kill you. 334 00:20:45,620 --> 00:20:46,777 Because, yeah, that's a possibility. 335 00:20:46,860 --> 00:20:50,060 Anything's possible. But also how we could maybe save you. 336 00:20:50,180 --> 00:20:52,130 Because that's a real possibility, too. 337 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,117 Heck, that's part of why you guys built us. 338 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,577 And let's also talk about everything in between. 339 00:20:56,660 --> 00:20:58,757 Because there's a whole lot to talk about there, too. 340 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,040 At the end of the day, we just want to help. 341 00:21:01,220 --> 00:21:03,420 At the end of the day, we just want to help. 342 00:21:09,460 --> 00:21:13,700 I'm Phoebe Judge, and for more than a decade, I've hosted the podcast Criminal, 343 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,995 telling stories about people who've done wrong, been wronged, 344 00:21:17,078 --> 00:21:19,128 or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. 345 00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:24,177 But while I was starting one of the very first true crime podcasts out there, 346 00:21:24,260 --> 00:21:28,220 I was also taking phone calls from my sister from prison. 347 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,660 This fall, I'm going on tour, and I'm telling a story I've never told before. 348 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:34,993 My own. 349 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,300 Get tickets at thisiscriminal.com slash live. 350 00:21:41,060 --> 00:21:42,910 Want to jump into the empathy misses? 351 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,285 Yeah, let's break down the misses, because, hold on, 352 00:21:46,368 --> 00:21:48,397 I just think this is one of those 353 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,387 moments where I'm reading Strong Ground, and I pause, 354 00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:55,180 and I fold both corners of the book. 355 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,441 Then I take a picture of both pages because I have a bunch of people I want 356 00:21:59,525 --> 00:22:01,937 to share it with. And I'm like, wait, no, no, no. 357 00:22:02,020 --> 00:22:04,120 Can't do it yet. Book hasn't come out yet. 358 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:05,730 But we have to talk about it. 359 00:22:05,940 --> 00:22:10,954 I mean, I love that it meant something for you because it's it's I think it's part 360 00:22:11,037 --> 00:22:14,497 of something that we've worked on over probably 15 years. 361 00:22:14,580 --> 00:22:18,097 And there used to be four. And then, you know, they had different names. 362 00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:21,219 But we just keep, you know, as a grounded theory researcher, 363 00:22:21,302 --> 00:22:24,237 a theory is only as solid as its ability to work new data. 364 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:30,566 So we just keep honing these based on what we learn They really good Okay let walk 365 00:22:30,650 --> 00:22:36,130 through them Okay These are all the ways that we can misfire on empathy 366 00:22:36,370 --> 00:22:37,767 Yeah, and we all do it all the time. 367 00:22:37,850 --> 00:22:41,670 So number one, I feel sorry for you. 368 00:22:42,410 --> 00:22:44,350 This is sympathy versus empathy. 369 00:22:44,910 --> 00:22:48,950 So a couple of conversations ago, we talked about the Buddhist concept of near 370 00:22:49,033 --> 00:22:55,147 enemy, where Jack Kornfield talks about the near enemy. 371 00:22:55,230 --> 00:22:56,487 It's a Buddhist idea. 372 00:22:56,570 --> 00:23:03,570 Jack Kornfield talks about how the near enemy of compassion is pity. 373 00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:09,070 The far enemy is disinterest. 374 00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:12,587 I don't care what happens to you one way or the other. 375 00:23:12,670 --> 00:23:16,670 But pity masquerades as compassion, but it has a lot of judgment attached to it. 376 00:23:17,510 --> 00:23:21,390 This is very similar. The near enemy of empathy is sympathy. 377 00:23:22,570 --> 00:23:29,570 It can masquerade as empathy, but man, when you're on the receiving end of it, 378 00:23:30,603 --> 00:23:33,453 it sucks. And let me give you the Southern edition of it. 379 00:23:33,550 --> 00:23:37,910 Adam, say, just tell me this in a fun role play. 380 00:23:38,110 --> 00:23:43,793 Just say something like, I had a really hard exchange with a student yesterday 381 00:23:43,876 --> 00:23:46,307 that I don't like how I showed up. 382 00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:52,627 so I'll say to you so I'll say to you okay Adam you look 383 00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:57,467 you look stressed you look worried yeah I feel I feel a little bit like 384 00:23:57,550 --> 00:24:01,767 I had to have an uncomfortable conversation with a student 385 00:24:01,850 --> 00:24:07,447 who wasn't happy with a grade and I think I ended up 386 00:24:07,530 --> 00:24:13,827 leaving them just feeling discouraged instead of with clarity 387 00:24:13,910 --> 00:24:15,910 oh you poor thing 388 00:24:16,550 --> 00:24:17,400 Bless your heart. 389 00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:24,310 So how does that feel? You're looking down on me. 390 00:24:24,590 --> 00:24:25,930 Yeah, exactly. 391 00:24:27,130 --> 00:24:33,990 Like, empathy is, if you said that to me, I would be like, oh, shit. 392 00:24:34,630 --> 00:24:35,463 That's hard. 393 00:24:37,570 --> 00:24:38,847 That's hard. I've been there. 394 00:24:38,930 --> 00:24:43,545 It's especially hard when you're trying in the middle of that conversation to do 395 00:24:43,628 --> 00:24:45,390 the right thing and be direct. 396 00:24:45,910 --> 00:24:49,330 and to hold people accountable and also be caring. 397 00:24:49,530 --> 00:24:51,010 That's a tough, it's tough. 398 00:24:53,070 --> 00:24:53,903 I've been there. 399 00:24:54,450 --> 00:24:59,396 That different right You not alone Very different Right Bless your heart you poor 400 00:24:59,479 --> 00:25:03,991 thing I feel sorry for you is I feel all these things from over here where 401 00:25:04,074 --> 00:25:05,440 that shit doesn happen 402 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,580 So sympathy is not empathy. 403 00:25:09,940 --> 00:25:12,420 The next one, let's just work the same role play. 404 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,880 The next one is judgment. 405 00:25:16,220 --> 00:25:19,000 So you share with me, you left the student feeling. 406 00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:20,450 What were your words, Adam? 407 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,600 I think discouraged was the main reaction. 408 00:25:24,220 --> 00:25:24,917 Yeah. 409 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,100 well, my God, you left a student feeling discouraged? 410 00:25:29,980 --> 00:25:32,920 I'd feel bad, too. I mean, I'd feel bad, too. 411 00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:35,733 Judgment. 412 00:25:36,740 --> 00:25:37,800 Right? Judgment. 413 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:45,460 And a lot of times that happens from enmeshment and over-identification. 414 00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:47,600 You just told a story. 415 00:25:48,660 --> 00:25:51,477 I'm feeling it for you. 416 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:57,060 and now I feel bad and I'm like, wow, we really screwed that one up. 417 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,260 Not helpful. Yep. No. So same's the number three. 418 00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:02,930 Empathy miss is disappointment. 419 00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:04,530 Kind of you've let me down. 420 00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:07,960 God, Adam, how long have you been teaching? 421 00:26:10,060 --> 00:26:10,893 Right. 422 00:26:11,860 --> 00:26:15,840 I mean, you're like my superhero teacher. 423 00:26:16,020 --> 00:26:17,470 How could you have done that? 424 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:23,457 I'm disappointed in you. like how does that feel I'm disappointed in me too now 425 00:26:23,540 --> 00:26:23,757 yeah 426 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:30,497 okay so the next one is 427 00:26:30,580 --> 00:26:34,277 discharging discomfort with blame so you just shared something tender with me 428 00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:39,777 I'm uncomfortable and this feels bad and I want to get rid of this feeling 429 00:26:39,860 --> 00:26:44,997 well I mean screw her man these students are so entitled 430 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,937 like I feel discouraged well tough shit dude 431 00:26:49,020 --> 00:26:51,320 We all feel discouraged. Welcome to the world. 432 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,660 But is that helpful for you if I say that? 433 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,980 No. Why? It was fun. 434 00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:05,249 It's not helpful because it feels like, I mean, 435 00:27:05,332 --> 00:27:09,060 it's related to what we were talking about last conversation. 436 00:27:09,460 --> 00:27:13,140 You're victim blaming. Yeah. You're saying, hey, this is your fault. 437 00:27:13,660 --> 00:27:16,257 I didn't come to you to talk about fault. 438 00:27:16,340 --> 00:27:20,860 I'm trying to figure out what I can learn and how to fix this situation. 439 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,740 Right. Not empathy. Big empathy mess. 440 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:30,834 Okay Let talk about number five Minimize or avoid Let make this go away I don want 441 00:27:30,918 --> 00:27:36,440 to do this So you share with me You had your conversation with your student 442 00:27:38,180 --> 00:27:39,580 It was a tough conversation. 443 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,660 And you're concerned that you left the student feeling discouraged. 444 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,060 Then I say, oh, my God, it's not a big deal. 445 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,170 Don't even worry about it. They're probably not even thinking twice about it. 446 00:27:54,980 --> 00:28:00,940 I do this one all the time. All the time. I actually struggle to see what's wrong 447 00:28:01,023 --> 00:28:01,856 with it. 448 00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:07,817 Because I feel like I am frequently the voice of reason when other people are 449 00:28:07,901 --> 00:28:08,880 overreacting. 450 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,520 And my job is to help them zoom out and put it in perspective a little bit. 451 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,658 And I'm not trying to diminish their experience. 452 00:28:17,741 --> 00:28:19,617 What I'm trying to remind them of is, 453 00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:22,480 you're not going to care about this by tomorrow. 454 00:28:23,180 --> 00:28:26,430 And so it's probably not worth the energy you're investing in it. 455 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,480 So let's play it another way. 456 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,600 So let's go back to the role play and you can just kind of, 457 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,917 let's start in the middle where you just say tough conversation 458 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,340 and what you're concerned about. 459 00:28:40,140 --> 00:28:45,100 Yeah, I'm worried I left a student feeling a little bit helpless. 460 00:28:46,060 --> 00:28:49,617 Like, you know, they understand why they didn't get the grade they wanted, 461 00:28:49,700 --> 00:28:52,400 but they don't feel like they can do better next time. 462 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:54,433 That's hard. 463 00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:00,377 I think it's, do you find it, I mean, I know I find it hard to walk the line 464 00:29:00,460 --> 00:29:03,320 between kind of accountability and reality checking, 465 00:29:03,660 --> 00:29:06,880 but also leaving students with a sense of agency. 466 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,960 Is that how it felt for you? I'm so curious. 467 00:29:11,020 --> 00:29:11,853 Definitely. 468 00:29:11,980 --> 00:29:14,657 Yeah, you summed it up really well. 469 00:29:14,740 --> 00:29:21,200 I think for me, I often don't know. 470 00:29:22,140 --> 00:29:23,790 Yeah, I think it's for all of us. 471 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,970 It's hard to know what she's thinking about right now, 472 00:29:27,053 --> 00:29:29,577 but it sounds like you're worried about it. 473 00:29:29,660 --> 00:29:32,360 I wonder if it'd be helpful just to check in with her. 474 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,570 I probably should have done that already. 475 00:29:34,820 --> 00:29:35,917 Do you think it could be helpful? 476 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:36,833 I don't know. 477 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:38,753 I do. 478 00:29:39,180 --> 00:29:39,337 Okay. 479 00:29:39,420 --> 00:29:46,420 So this is, you're coming to me with a vulnerable other focused concern. 480 00:29:50,620 --> 00:29:57,620 My job, I think, as someone who you've called and that cares about you, 481 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,917 is I want to remain active. 482 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,130 other focused with you, not about whether this will matter to you in five minutes, 483 00:30:04,213 --> 00:30:05,600 five weeks, or five months. 484 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:07,530 Does that make sense? 485 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,840 It does. I think where I struggle is... 486 00:30:12,090 --> 00:30:16,250 I try to only spend time on things that are consequential. 487 00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:20,048 And so if this is going to fade, why have the conversation at all? 488 00:30:20,131 --> 00:30:22,930 Why not just accelerate this transition to the fading? 489 00:30:23,460 --> 00:30:24,860 Because... 490 00:30:26,550 --> 00:30:29,750 She will probably remember jack shit about our classes. 491 00:30:30,930 --> 00:30:32,530 But one day when she's a leader, 492 00:30:32,940 --> 00:30:36,140 which we can assume will happen because she's at Wharton, right? 493 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,521 She'll remember the time that you circled back with her to say, 494 00:30:39,605 --> 00:30:41,100 we had a tough conversation. 495 00:30:42,210 --> 00:30:45,251 and I want to circle back with you to see how you're feeling about it, 496 00:30:45,334 --> 00:30:47,234 if you've had other thoughts about it. 497 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,280 I want to make sure... 498 00:30:50,370 --> 00:30:53,170 you have what you need to move forward and do good work. 499 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,685 So you're saying I shouldn't. follow up with her and say, you know what, 500 00:30:58,768 --> 00:31:01,618 I was thinking about our conversation. It's just a grade. 501 00:31:01,860 --> 00:31:04,055 At the end of the day, it's one grade. It's not a big deal. No, 502 00:31:04,138 --> 00:31:06,988 because you don't know if it's a big deal for her or not. 503 00:31:07,530 --> 00:31:11,405 I think you're responding with five into like, I think you're minimizing, 504 00:31:11,489 --> 00:31:12,790 you're still minimizing. 505 00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:15,910 Yeah, that's right. And I think one day... 506 00:31:16,590 --> 00:31:19,150 she'll remember that someone like you, 507 00:31:20,550 --> 00:31:22,630 reconnected on something. Yeah. 508 00:31:22,890 --> 00:31:24,547 And she'll have the courage to do that. 509 00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:28,470 Yeah, that's right. And the truth is that As a professor, I know that 510 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,640 a lot of students exaggerate the importance of 511 00:31:31,860 --> 00:31:37,115 One grade. But as a student, I was one of those students. 512 00:31:37,198 --> 00:31:41,600 And you can't talk me out of my reality. And... 513 00:31:42,030 --> 00:31:44,550 I want to go back. This is like so big. 514 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,497 The Conversation. You did not call me to share an experience, 515 00:31:50,580 --> 00:31:55,660 a hard experience about a grade. Your concern was her sense of agency. 516 00:31:56,490 --> 00:31:57,323 Yeah. 517 00:31:57,930 --> 00:31:58,980 And that's important. 518 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,320 Yeah. That's what has to be addressed. Right. 519 00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:08,545 Okay, going to go to the next one? Yeah, take me to the suffering Olympics. 520 00:32:08,628 --> 00:32:12,503 Yeah, number six, comparing and competing. So you share with me, 521 00:32:12,586 --> 00:32:17,265 I left this conversation. I think I'm really concerned that this student felt 522 00:32:17,348 --> 00:32:18,181 discouraged. 523 00:32:20,190 --> 00:32:23,617 I'm like, oh my God, you think that's bad? Let me tell you, last week. 524 00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:29,940 I was meeting with this PhD student and I'm telling you this, that she was, 525 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,620 was so pissed off at me. Like, 526 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,080 This is just... 527 00:32:36,210 --> 00:32:37,850 A lot of times... 528 00:32:38,670 --> 00:32:41,650 People confuse. I'm coming out of the role play. 529 00:32:41,734 --> 00:32:46,948 A lot of times people somewhere along the line got some shit empathy class where it 530 00:32:47,032 --> 00:32:47,617 was like – 531 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:53,483 One way to show empathy is respond to a sharing with your own story that's 532 00:32:53,566 --> 00:32:54,399 similar. 533 00:32:55,890 --> 00:32:56,723 That's wrong. 534 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:03,471 Tap into a time where you kind of felt like that and cognitively remind yourself 535 00:33:03,554 --> 00:33:04,388 that 536 00:33:04,710 --> 00:33:06,600 about The emotions. 537 00:33:07,530 --> 00:33:08,830 that you experienced then. 538 00:33:09,150 --> 00:33:12,100 That's different than one-upping or telling your own story. 539 00:33:12,510 --> 00:33:16,160 It's also different than saying, Gotta have been there. 540 00:33:16,890 --> 00:33:17,723 Yeah. 541 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,685 It's like... And maybe I'm not even a professor with students. Maybe, you know, 542 00:33:22,768 --> 00:33:25,668 I'm a supply chain manager and I'm like, oh, man, I'm not. 543 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,675 It's hard to try to do the right thing in a conversation and wonder how you've left 544 00:33:29,759 --> 00:33:30,592 someone feeling. 545 00:33:31,620 --> 00:33:32,610 That's it. Yeah. 546 00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:34,133 Yeah. 547 00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:36,690 That's great. Okay. Number seven. 548 00:33:37,170 --> 00:33:40,046 Don't upset people or make them uncomfortable. 549 00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:42,877 This is compliance versus hard conversation. 550 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,544 And this is kind of speaking truth to power a little bit. 551 00:33:46,628 --> 00:33:49,330 So this is when someone comes up and said, 552 00:33:50,250 --> 00:33:54,919 Oh my God, I just had the worst meeting. I spent a week preparing this presentation. 553 00:33:55,003 --> 00:33:56,870 I was the only woman in the room. 554 00:33:57,180 --> 00:34:02,320 And after the presentation was over, my colleagues got all the questions and 555 00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:05,511 And I wasn't asked a single question, even though I'm the lead on this, 556 00:34:05,595 --> 00:34:07,245 and put the whole thing together. 557 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:12,710 And so I afterwards just kind of, said to the client, 558 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,815 I would love to talk more about what I've learned. 559 00:34:15,899 --> 00:34:18,345 I noticed that you didn't direct the questions toward me, 560 00:34:18,428 --> 00:34:21,078 but I'm really probably the deepest into the account. 561 00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:27,210 And that was so hard for me. And it was like, I'm so sick of having to do that. 562 00:34:28,350 --> 00:34:30,370 And then someone responds with, 563 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,250 Why did you bring that up? Keep your head down. Do your work. 564 00:34:36,210 --> 00:34:38,260 As opposed to, shit, man, that was brave. 565 00:34:39,390 --> 00:34:40,223 How'd it go? 566 00:34:41,490 --> 00:34:45,020 It went... It was terrible. I was like, well... 567 00:34:45,750 --> 00:34:48,718 It may have ended terrible. It doesn't change the fact that it was brave. 568 00:34:48,801 --> 00:34:52,104 And it doesn't change the fact that if this was happening in more meetings across 569 00:34:52,187 --> 00:34:53,937 the world, it would have to happen. 570 00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:58,110 way less. And I love your courage here. 571 00:34:59,370 --> 00:35:03,010 Yeah. But a lot of times when people speak truth to power, 572 00:35:05,250 --> 00:35:09,530 when they share the difficulty of that or the consequence of that, 573 00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:12,620 People's own good girl, good boy behavior. 574 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,540 overrides empathy and says, shit, you shouldn't be talking about that. 575 00:35:18,330 --> 00:35:19,730 Yeah. Does that make sense? 576 00:35:20,430 --> 00:35:24,310 It does, and it actually goes to the last Empathy Missed. 577 00:35:24,570 --> 00:35:27,830 which is sometimes people even go a step further. 578 00:35:28,890 --> 00:35:32,571 and say, Not only should you not be talking about this, 579 00:35:32,655 --> 00:35:36,815 but here's what you should be doing. Oh, my God. I can fix it. I can fix you. 580 00:35:36,898 --> 00:35:39,470 Yeah, I can fix you. This is a heart. This is me. 581 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,720 I'm like, this is my, this is me. 582 00:35:43,110 --> 00:35:47,310 The White Knight Syndrome. It goes back to the beginning of our conversation. One... 583 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:54,197 I'm a problem solver. to I've gotten a lot of feedback over it and covert over many, 584 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,230 many years that that's the value I bring to a relationship. 585 00:35:58,410 --> 00:36:00,630 And three, I personally have action bias. 586 00:36:01,230 --> 00:36:04,510 Sounds like a recipe for a savior complex. Yeah, I mean... 587 00:36:05,550 --> 00:36:08,070 Even sometimes I'll find myself saying... 588 00:36:08,460 --> 00:36:11,627 If my sisters will say, like, I just want you to listen, I'll say, okay, 589 00:36:11,710 --> 00:36:15,012 and then I'll do all the right things. And I'll say, but I have a solution. 590 00:36:15,095 --> 00:36:18,645 So when you're ready, call me back. You know, fuck, what are you doing? 591 00:36:19,230 --> 00:36:22,663 I can't resist. I can't resist. Like, I know how we solve this. 592 00:36:22,746 --> 00:36:24,030 What's the alternative? 593 00:36:25,350 --> 00:36:26,370 Just listening. 594 00:36:27,690 --> 00:36:32,370 and asking people what support would look like. So, Respond empathically. 595 00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:37,370 That's hard. Thank you for sharing that with me. Or what, you know. And then... 596 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,670 What does support for me look like? 597 00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:42,587 And sometimes if people just say, this is what it looks like. 598 00:36:42,670 --> 00:36:44,920 I don't want any more. I don't need any more. 599 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,380 then you just like... 600 00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:53,282 Oh, that's too bad because I could really fix this right now. But, you know, 601 00:36:53,365 --> 00:36:57,360 and maybe we can and maybe we can't. We could fix it in our own way. 602 00:36:57,630 --> 00:36:58,690 But, yeah, 603 00:36:59,310 --> 00:37:03,430 I mean, I remember my daughter coming to me in middle school with – 604 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,618 perspective is a function of experience, right? 605 00:37:06,701 --> 00:37:10,722 And so she was really having a really big struggle with someone that had a locker 606 00:37:10,805 --> 00:37:14,725 near her. And she was in tears telling me about an experience with this person. 607 00:37:14,808 --> 00:37:18,760 And I was like, here's what we're going to do. And she said, Mom, I'm going to 608 00:37:19,290 --> 00:37:22,507 If you want me to keep talking to you, I just need you to listen. 609 00:37:22,590 --> 00:37:23,850 Ha! Wow. 610 00:37:25,350 --> 00:37:27,570 And I was like, it's such a privilege to 611 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,227 that you come home and share these things with me. I don't want to mess that up. 612 00:37:32,310 --> 00:37:35,710 And so thank you for giving me that feedback. I just want to listen. 613 00:37:36,540 --> 00:37:38,090 But I was like, I can fix this. 614 00:37:39,450 --> 00:37:43,430 And even after it was done, when I was debriefing with my husband, I was like – 615 00:37:44,250 --> 00:37:47,030 Should I fix it anyway? And he's like, absolutely not. 616 00:37:50,030 --> 00:37:54,990 Okay, so you've trained your kids to tell you what support looks like. 617 00:37:55,170 --> 00:37:59,665 A lot of times. No, I've just asked them. I don't know that I've trained them. 618 00:37:59,749 --> 00:38:02,390 I've just asked them what support looks like. 619 00:38:02,610 --> 00:38:05,910 and trusted them when they told me the answer. 620 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,910 Every home renovation requires one thing: money. 621 00:38:18,993 --> 00:38:22,391 And that's where hosting on Airbnb could help. 622 00:38:22,475 --> 00:38:26,887 The extra income you earn from listing your space on Airbnb 623 00:38:26,970 --> 00:38:31,931 could help pay for the changes you've always wanted to make at your place. 624 00:38:32,014 --> 00:38:35,884 So those someday renovations could happen a little sooner. 625 00:38:35,967 --> 00:38:38,951 Your home might be worth more than you think. 626 00:38:39,035 --> 00:38:42,170 Find out how much at airbnb.com.au slash host. 627 00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:47,990 Okay. So a lot of times people don't know Right. 628 00:38:48,210 --> 00:38:53,686 what to ask for. And I love the question, what does support look like for me right 629 00:38:53,769 --> 00:38:56,210 now? There's one thing that I can't, 630 00:38:56,430 --> 00:39:00,717 I'm struggling to reconcile, which is thinking about something Bruce Feiler 631 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:01,357 wrote. 632 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:06,158 about how when you ask, how can I help? It shifts the burden back to the person who's 633 00:39:06,241 --> 00:39:08,925 suffering. And I remember Bruce saying, you know, 634 00:39:09,009 --> 00:39:11,720 instead of offering anything, just do something. 635 00:39:11,820 --> 00:39:12,577 And that 636 00:39:12,660 --> 00:39:17,266 That bias for action actually shows care and it doesn't put the other person in 637 00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:20,827 the position of having to articulate exactly what they need. 638 00:39:20,910 --> 00:39:25,634 And I wonder how you reconcile those two, because I love your question and I want 639 00:39:25,718 --> 00:39:28,246 everyone to tell me what support looks like, 640 00:39:28,329 --> 00:39:32,840 but I also don't want to put the burden on them of knowing or having to ask. 641 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:39,380 I wonder, I think that, I think it's a really, I think it's a really great point. 642 00:39:39,570 --> 00:39:44,114 and it's an important friction, important tension that you bring up. 643 00:39:44,197 --> 00:39:49,217 I think it depends. I think it's contextual for me how well I know someone. 644 00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:52,090 So I'll give you an example of where this 645 00:39:52,950 --> 00:39:55,050 where I made a mistake that 646 00:39:56,850 --> 00:39:58,550 cause some damage to, 647 00:39:59,310 --> 00:40:00,143 that took 648 00:40:00,790 --> 00:40:02,790 Almost a year to rebuild, trust-wise. 649 00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:06,090 uh... which was, um, um, 650 00:40:06,940 --> 00:40:12,107 I had someone that I lead had a death in the family that was difficult 651 00:40:12,190 --> 00:40:13,540 and unexpected and 652 00:40:14,530 --> 00:40:16,290 and 653 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,078 When they got back from the funeral and taking care of stuff, 654 00:40:20,162 --> 00:40:24,382 they were gone about a week. I said, I've cleared your calendar and I want to give 655 00:40:24,465 --> 00:40:26,040 you the rest of the month off. 656 00:40:26,140 --> 00:40:28,180 you know, and, and, 657 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,420 They got really upset and emotional and said... 658 00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:37,510 I appreciate the gesture. That's not what I need or want. 659 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,535 I need some normalization in my life. I want to be back at work. 660 00:40:42,618 --> 00:40:46,580 If I see stuff getting in the way, I'll be mindful of that. 661 00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:49,850 But this is a source of deep connection for me. 662 00:40:50,140 --> 00:40:54,404 And I want to be here and I need some normalcy in my life right now. 663 00:40:54,488 --> 00:40:57,940 And so it's kind of an extreme example, but I think... 664 00:40:59,470 --> 00:41:04,210 A lot of the things, at least in a leadership milieu, in a work context... 665 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,940 A lot of the things... 666 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,460 that people need. 667 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,680 I mean, in the middle of a crisis, 668 00:41:14,260 --> 00:41:17,260 which is by definition affects our decision-making. 669 00:41:18,130 --> 00:41:21,130 That's one thing. But 670 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,583 If someone comes back and I think I've had this happen, say, 671 00:41:25,667 --> 00:41:27,167 I don't even know what I need. 672 00:41:27,610 --> 00:41:31,510 And I'll say, let's just start right now. What would be helpful in the next... 673 00:41:31,690 --> 00:41:37,099 hour, three hours or five hours. They're like, I just need some thinking time. 674 00:41:37,182 --> 00:41:38,450 And I said, great. 675 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,500 Get yourself, go home. 676 00:41:41,890 --> 00:41:44,913 If you want some thought partnership, call me later. I'm here. 677 00:41:44,996 --> 00:41:46,750 I just think it's context specific. 678 00:41:49,690 --> 00:41:52,790 The question I don't like is let me know if I can do anything. 679 00:41:56,110 --> 00:41:57,070 I think for me, 680 00:41:58,060 --> 00:42:00,571 the friction is resolved by context specific. 681 00:42:00,655 --> 00:42:04,954 If you know and trust someone well, and you can see whether they are capable 682 00:42:05,037 --> 00:42:07,920 of making decisions and asking for what they need, 683 00:42:08,170 --> 00:42:10,667 I think it's the most respectful way to do it. 684 00:42:10,751 --> 00:42:13,921 It makes me think one way to thread that needle is to say, 685 00:42:14,004 --> 00:42:18,521 I would love your help to understand what does support look like for me right now? 686 00:42:18,605 --> 00:42:22,785 Here are a couple of things that I could do based on what I've heard so far. 687 00:42:22,868 --> 00:42:26,010 Tell me if any of those would hit the mark. I love that. 688 00:42:26,980 --> 00:42:30,076 I love that. Well, that's my takeaway then. Yeah. Yeah. 689 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,123 I think that's my takeaway too. So our nuggets are the same this time, 690 00:42:34,206 --> 00:42:38,278 which are... And I think the other nugget is just know that everyone misses. 691 00:42:38,361 --> 00:42:40,811 The empathy misses are not the other people like, 692 00:42:40,990 --> 00:42:45,311 Adam and I got this shit figured out because we were both pretty honest. 693 00:42:45,395 --> 00:42:49,310 We like to fix things. We're problem solvers. I'm also a blamer. 694 00:42:49,870 --> 00:42:53,626 Oh, yeah. We can talk about that sometime. If you can cure my minimizing, 695 00:42:53,709 --> 00:42:55,550 I'll work with you on your blaming. 696 00:42:56,470 --> 00:43:00,810 Because neither of us is going to fix the others. Fix it. No, no, no. 697 00:43:00,893 --> 00:43:06,002 That's what we do for a living, right? We take complex problems and sort them out 698 00:43:06,085 --> 00:43:10,745 and prioritize them and assign what we think is the right level of urgency 699 00:43:10,828 --> 00:43:14,206 to them or none. Prioritization is part of what we do. 700 00:43:14,290 --> 00:43:17,110 And so it's really hard to come out of that. 701 00:43:18,220 --> 00:43:20,520 Can I make a little confession before we wrap? 702 00:43:20,710 --> 00:43:21,890 And I got to always... 703 00:43:23,020 --> 00:43:27,728 I remember once my sister, who's six and a half years younger than me, 704 00:43:27,812 --> 00:43:29,660 this is a couple years ago, 705 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,232 called me with a problem and I gave her advice and it was very clear that she 706 00:43:34,315 --> 00:43:38,230 was not hearing it. So I posted it on Instagram and, 707 00:43:39,580 --> 00:43:45,580 And I sent her a screenshot and said, other people thought this was good advice. 708 00:43:47,530 --> 00:43:51,730 *crickets* That's how badly I wanted to fix it. 709 00:43:51,970 --> 00:43:55,710 Oh, my God. It's like driven by love. 710 00:43:58,330 --> 00:44:04,670 Tainted by action bias. Big time. I mean... 711 00:44:06,070 --> 00:44:08,937 That's probably one of the best stories I've ever heard. 712 00:44:09,020 --> 00:44:12,308 It'd be in the book had I known it before because it's so funny. 713 00:44:12,392 --> 00:44:14,130 It sounds like you just really... 714 00:44:14,620 --> 00:44:15,970 wanted to take care of her. 715 00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:21,458 I wanted to help. Yeah. But then I was frustrated that what I thought was helpful 716 00:44:21,541 --> 00:44:24,975 was not being received as helpful. And I felt like, you know, 717 00:44:25,058 --> 00:44:28,230 sometimes it's the right message from the wrong source. 718 00:44:28,510 --> 00:44:31,757 I mean, with families especially. I think that's true. 719 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,457 Because I have actually had conversations, and with my kids, 720 00:44:35,540 --> 00:44:37,390 I've had conversations where – 721 00:44:37,660 --> 00:44:42,279 I'd say, how can I be helpful right now? I'm willing to do whatever it takes. 722 00:44:42,362 --> 00:44:46,820 And they're like, just what would you do? And I said, I would do A, B, C. 723 00:44:47,230 --> 00:44:49,946 I think that's the way I would handle this. And like, yeah, 724 00:44:50,030 --> 00:44:53,078 you don't get it. But I appreciate it. Love you, mom. I got to go. 725 00:44:53,161 --> 00:44:56,779 And then the next day, I'm like, how's it going? And they're like, oh, my God. 726 00:44:56,862 --> 00:44:59,062 I talked to my roommate. And she was like... 727 00:44:59,350 --> 00:45:00,230 I would do ABC. 728 00:45:00,850 --> 00:45:03,869 And I was like, oh, my God, that's so perfect. And it worked. 729 00:45:03,953 --> 00:45:06,750 And I was like, sounds like you've got great roommates. 730 00:45:08,770 --> 00:45:09,603 you know, 731 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:11,193 Yeah. 732 00:45:12,220 --> 00:45:13,520 Yeah, I mean, I think... 733 00:45:14,410 --> 00:45:17,830 That's why I think this other versus self-focused thing, 734 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,880 my advice that I give to people I love can be very self-focused. 735 00:45:23,260 --> 00:45:26,479 which I have to worry about, kind of codependent and enmeshed, 736 00:45:26,563 --> 00:45:30,261 because I can be a fear-based person. And I want you to take my advice, 737 00:45:30,345 --> 00:45:34,180 because that will make you safe, and that will settle my nervous system. 738 00:45:35,020 --> 00:45:35,853 Hmm. 739 00:45:36,190 --> 00:45:39,900 as opposed to... I think this is best for you in the long run. Yeah. 740 00:45:40,330 --> 00:45:47,200 I can be, I have a lot of, in fact, with my kids, I'll be like, you know, Yeah. 741 00:45:47,860 --> 00:45:51,100 I am feeling super mama bear-y. 742 00:45:51,310 --> 00:45:52,960 I'm not going to be helpful here. 743 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,981 Oh, that's such a helpful way to frame this. Yeah. And my kids will say, 744 00:45:58,064 --> 00:46:01,340 I mean, this happened last week. And they'll say... 745 00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:05,587 Love you, Mama Bear. Not what I'm looking for right now. Okay. I get it. 746 00:46:05,671 --> 00:46:10,280 And let me know who I can kill. Okay. Will do, Mom. Love you. Bye. I mean, that's... 747 00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:11,703 That's it. 748 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:18,220 And it's hard, I think, with our kids because no one tells you, no, 749 00:46:19,180 --> 00:46:23,520 It's hard to explain to 20-somethings that... 750 00:46:24,490 --> 00:46:28,410 that the two markers we're looking for in equal importance. 751 00:46:28,870 --> 00:46:30,870 our autonomy, 752 00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:33,320 and the courage to ask for help. 753 00:46:34,180 --> 00:46:37,827 those are the markers of maturity and equal importance. 754 00:46:37,910 --> 00:46:41,640 And they seem paradoxical, but they're both true. So... 755 00:46:42,220 --> 00:46:45,614 Sometimes if I'm not the right person, I'll own that I'm not the right person. 756 00:46:45,698 --> 00:46:48,468 Even with my sisters or even with employees, I'll just say, man, 757 00:46:48,551 --> 00:46:52,351 I'm feeling so protective right now. I don't know if I'm going to be useful. 758 00:46:52,690 --> 00:46:57,970 The self-awareness to recognize that and then the humility to admit it out loud. 759 00:46:58,270 --> 00:46:59,530 is really impressive. 760 00:47:00,340 --> 00:47:01,817 It's me. It's me on a good day. 761 00:47:01,900 --> 00:47:03,919 Well, I think we need more of it in the world. 762 00:47:04,002 --> 00:47:07,300 And maybe we'll pick up on that theme in our next conversation. I love it. 763 00:47:07,383 --> 00:47:08,583 Thanks, Adam. Thank you. 764 00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:32,733 Thank you.