WEBVTT 00:00:01.200 --> 00:00:08.200 Oh, yeah. You know, this is what they play when the performance is about to start. 00:00:08.668 --> 00:00:11.400 Yes. You're calling people in. 00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:18.260 So a few months ago, I took a tour of the Kennedy Center with a tour guide there. 00:00:19.700 --> 00:00:22.859 Oh, can I get your name? Oh, Sandy Weiswasser. 00:00:22.942 --> 00:00:28.387 A volunteer named Sandy Weiswasser. Wow, I got to spell that out. W-E-I-S-W-E. 00:00:28.470 --> 00:00:34.830 She's 87 years old. She's a huge bundle of energy. And for the last 20 years, 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:39.227 She's given tours every single Monday. Are you an artist yourself? 00:00:39.310 --> 00:00:42.608 Am I an artist? No, I play the piano, though. You do? 00:00:42.691 --> 00:00:47.167 And I tell a lot about the arts. I mean, I love ballet and opera and... 00:00:47.250 --> 00:00:49.858 Before President Trump took over the Kennedy Center, 00:00:49.942 --> 00:00:51.650 Sandy's tours were always packed. 00:00:52.050 --> 00:00:57.090 you But then he took over, made a lot of changes, and people stopped coming. 00:00:59.250 --> 00:01:03.034 And so on the day that I was there, the center was empty, 00:01:03.118 --> 00:01:05.884 and I was the only person on Sandy's tour. 00:01:05.968 --> 00:01:09.209 So this foyer apparently is one of the largest... 00:01:09.293 --> 00:01:14.298 And as she walked me through the center... The largest gift is this marble, 00:01:14.382 --> 00:01:19.810 which comes from Carrara, Italy. Beautiful chandelier. It's done by Dale Chihui. 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:22.807 It was clear how proud she was of the place. 00:01:22.890 --> 00:01:25.320 I like the undulating quality of it. 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:31.040 And how much she reveres it. No bed seat in the place. No, it doesn't look like it. 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:39.375 But at some point in the tour, it occurred to me that she was speaking in the past 00:01:39.458 --> 00:01:43.720 tense. Well, that's the other thing when I give my tours now, do I give them? 00:01:43.890 --> 00:01:47.846 Present tense or past tense, it's very hard. 00:01:47.930 --> 00:01:51.510 What words to use for my verbs, anyway. 00:01:51.720 --> 00:01:56.064 And the tour she was giving was kind of a tour of wreckage. 00:01:56.147 --> 00:02:02.442 And what she was explaining and all of her memories started to sound a lot to me like 00:02:02.526 --> 00:02:08.371 a eulogy. So, I mean, all these little things about all the performers that are 00:02:08.454 --> 00:02:13.639 no longer here is very sad. And it also became clear that in Sandy's mind, 00:02:13.722 --> 00:02:18.710 there was one person responsible for all that had happened to the Kennedy Center. 00:02:19.140 --> 00:02:23.592 I mean, this place used to be really thriving and busy and crowded. 00:02:23.675 --> 00:02:27.060 Now it's very empty. And that was President Trump. 00:02:28.950 --> 00:02:32.750 From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. 00:02:38.830 --> 00:02:44.467 Today, the life and, for the time being, the death of the Kennedy Center. 00:02:44.550 --> 00:02:48.930 My colleague, Elizabeth Williamson, 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:54.720 brings us the story of how President Trump decided to take over and now shut down 00:02:55.110 --> 00:02:59.180 Washington's biggest, and most celebrated home for the arts. 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:06.960 It's Friday, September 25th. 00:03:07.170 --> 00:03:10.830 Thank you. 00:03:13.140 --> 00:03:18.067 Elizabeth. Welcome back to The Daily. Michael, it's great to join you. 00:03:18.150 --> 00:03:22.039 You have been watching the Kennedy Center shut down for months, 00:03:22.122 --> 00:03:25.567 first gradually and then abruptly, when it literally... 00:03:25.650 --> 00:03:30.330 closed its doors about 10 days ago. So we're coming to you for what 00:03:30.450 --> 00:03:36.320 feels a bit like a post-mortem here to understand why President Trump has closed 00:03:36.403 --> 00:03:38.710 this place down. And I think... 00:03:38.820 --> 00:03:43.027 any Good Postmortem has to begin with the question... 00:03:43.110 --> 00:03:47.237 of motivation. How do you think about his motivation here? 00:03:47.321 --> 00:03:52.319 I think you have to go back to President Trump's first term. Remember, 00:03:52.403 --> 00:03:56.458 this was a really brutal election with a surprise result. 00:03:56.541 --> 00:04:01.970 He comes into the White House. He had been Roundly rejected by people 00:04:02.190 --> 00:04:08.347 cultural elites in New York City, the epicenter of the nation's cultural life. 00:04:08.430 --> 00:04:09.790 And he comes into 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:14.105 Washington, where the center of the cultural life in the Capitol is 00:04:14.188 --> 00:04:18.480 the Kennedy Center. Right. And he's thinking, I'm the president now. 00:04:20.130 --> 00:04:25.340 Surely he'll be welcomed. more broadly by the culture once he's in the White House. 00:04:26.010 --> 00:04:29.050 But instead, that rejection really continued. 00:04:30.730 --> 00:04:36.358 And there was probably no better example in that first year than the annual Kennedy 00:04:36.441 --> 00:04:41.243 Center Honors, which is the Kennedy Center's biggest night of the year. 00:04:41.326 --> 00:04:44.010 And what form does that rejection take? 00:04:56.010 --> 00:05:00.356 at the Kennedy Center, or they were considering not coming. 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:06.737 Why did you decide not to do that? Because he's made me feel it's not my White House. 00:05:06.821 --> 00:05:12.743 The first to say this was Norman Lear, who created All in the Family and many of 00:05:12.826 --> 00:05:18.223 our most beloved sitcoms and television shows. But I've gotten over that. 00:05:18.307 --> 00:05:21.610 It is my White House. It oughtn't to be his. 00:05:26.010 --> 00:05:31.802 photographer said out now no I just can't I'm absolutely not going I am 86 now I 00:05:31.885 --> 00:05:37.603 have all these years I have done what anybody asked me to and this is the first 00:05:37.687 --> 00:05:40.110 time in my life I've ever said no 00:05:40.530 --> 00:05:45.010 Lionel Richie, who was also an honoree that year, said, well, you know, 00:05:45.093 --> 00:05:49.959 I'm going to just play it by ear. I can't decide if I'll go. I must tell you, 00:05:50.042 --> 00:05:53.770 I'm not really happy as to what's going on right now with. 00:05:54.870 --> 00:06:00.712 the controversies and the weekly... And I think that that was quite a realization 00:06:00.796 --> 00:06:06.858 for him. He had gotten to the absolute top of our hierarchy and still that rejection 00:06:06.941 --> 00:06:12.564 continued. So Trump's response to that was to say, okay, if you don't want me, 00:06:12.647 --> 00:06:18.197 I don't want you either. And he just was generally a no-show for the entirety 00:06:18.281 --> 00:06:24.340 of his four-year term. . So for the next four years, Trump... 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:29.764 Basically boycotts. the Kennedy Center and thoroughly writes it off. Yes. 00:06:29.847 --> 00:06:33.533 And so when he begins his second term in 2025, you know, 00:06:33.616 --> 00:06:39.254 this is now he's newly energized. He's got a different agenda when he comes in in his 00:06:39.337 --> 00:06:41.737 second term. As we well know, he is. 00:06:41.820 --> 00:06:48.157 Vowing to be people's retribution, but he's also remaking aspects of society, 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:53.743 including our cultural life. He comes in as an anti-woke president. 00:06:53.827 --> 00:06:59.580 He won on that. So barely in office for a month, 18 days to be exact. 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:03.100 He starts to launch a plan. To. 00:07:03.690 --> 00:07:05.450 Take over the Kennedy Center. 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:10.800 And take it over how, just like logistically, what – 00:07:11.070 --> 00:07:15.120 power does he have over it and how does he end up Taking it over. 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:20.464 So the president has the power to appoint board members to the Kennedy Center, 00:07:20.547 --> 00:07:24.967 and they basically oversee the running of the center itself. Typically, 00:07:25.050 --> 00:07:30.231 the board members serve six-year terms, so you had overlapping administration board 00:07:30.314 --> 00:07:33.973 members, appointees. Democrats, Republicans. Exactly. Yeah. 00:07:34.056 --> 00:07:38.940 And they work together, and that was the way the Kennedy Center was designed. 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:50.150 And then stacked the board with people who were loyal to himself, 00:07:50.234 --> 00:07:55.568 his chief of staff, Susie Wiles, the wife of the vice president, Usha Vance, 00:07:55.651 --> 00:08:00.344 Howard Lutnick's wife. And so they came in and took over the board. 00:08:00.427 --> 00:08:05.560 And then their first move was to vote to replace the chairman with Usha. 00:08:05.670 --> 00:08:10.009 Mr. Trump and the existing chairman, David Rubenstein, 00:08:10.092 --> 00:08:14.840 he had personally given $111 million to the Kennedy Center, 00:08:14.924 --> 00:08:17.790 its facilities and its programming. 00:08:18.420 --> 00:08:25.350 So immediately – the president replaces this mega philanthropist, 00:08:25.440 --> 00:08:31.320 to the Kennedy Center, with basically himself. Yes. And what does... 00:08:31.500 --> 00:08:36.800 Chairman of the Kennedy Center Trump, do with this newfound power? 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:42.101 It's a very exciting development. So President Trump convenes a call with his 00:08:42.184 --> 00:08:47.393 new handpicked board members, but he starts by bashing it as what he thinks it 00:08:47.476 --> 00:08:49.800 is. It got very wokey. 00:08:49.890 --> 00:08:55.447 a bastion of cultural elites. And some people were not happy with it. 00:08:55.530 --> 00:08:59.243 And some people refuse to go. And we're not going to have that. 00:08:59.327 --> 00:09:04.065 Doing programming that everyday Americans aren't interested in and might even be 00:09:04.148 --> 00:09:09.150 offended by. And he's going to change all that. I think we're going to make it hot. 00:09:09.270 --> 00:09:12.570 And we made the presidency hot, so this should be easy. 00:09:12.900 --> 00:09:14.880 and make the Kennedy Center hot again. 00:09:18.660 --> 00:09:25.220 I'm curious if there's any truth to what Trump is saying to this board. Is it? 00:09:25.350 --> 00:09:26.407 elitist 00:09:26.490 --> 00:09:33.142 does it have a left wing tilt so i think here is where you realize what a radical 00:09:33.225 --> 00:09:37.050 misconception the president was laboring under 00:09:37.260 --> 00:09:40.587 And partly due to the fact that for his entire first term, 00:09:40.670 --> 00:09:43.140 he didn't step foot in the Kennedy Center. 00:09:43.740 --> 00:09:49.954 So it has a symphony, it has an opera, but the vast majority of its programming 00:09:50.037 --> 00:09:54.740 is meant to be entertainment, entertainment, entertainment. 00:09:55.140 --> 00:09:59.927 popular works. I'll just... 00:10:00.010 --> 00:10:04.811 I'll go backstage. No, that's okay, that's okay. I know that song. 00:10:04.895 --> 00:10:09.400 That's about my favorite street. Oh, Big Bird! Big Bird! Elmo! 00:10:09.484 --> 00:10:12.370 So you're talking about performances... 00:10:12.700 --> 00:10:15.730 like Big Bird. and Sesame Street characters. 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:27.010 Aretha Franklin. Ladies and gentlemen, Garth Brooks. 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:37.600 Famous church chorale groups. 00:10:40.880 --> 00:10:44.472 The Washington Ballet had its children's recital there. 00:10:44.555 --> 00:10:47.546 It was their chance to dance on the big stage. 00:10:47.629 --> 00:10:52.624 Local little kids doing ballet. Yes. Entire classes of school children came. 00:10:52.707 --> 00:10:57.836 My own children's classes came. Kids could run down the hall, the grand foyer, 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:01.060 which is like two football fields long. Mm-hmm. 00:11:01.150 --> 00:11:05.458 It was a wide open place. My older son mentioned that the first time he ever saw 00:11:05.541 --> 00:11:07.873 Jaws was projected on the side of the reach, 00:11:07.956 --> 00:11:10.810 which is the Kennedy Center annex on a summer night. 00:11:14.150 --> 00:11:15.350 Shut off that engine. 00:11:17.970 --> 00:11:21.802 Pretty popular. Yeah, exactly. It was the kind of place meant to be open 00:11:21.885 --> 00:11:24.550 for everyone. You're going to need a bigger boat. 00:11:28.510 --> 00:11:30.437 Well, Elizabeth, even if the president's 00:11:30.520 --> 00:11:34.580 whole approach to the Kennedy Center is based on a radical misconception of it. 00:11:34.870 --> 00:11:37.910 How does this approach work? get put into practice. 00:11:38.050 --> 00:11:40.910 in that first few months of him running it. 00:11:41.470 --> 00:11:44.515 So to direct the center's day-to-day activities, 00:11:44.598 --> 00:11:49.532 he brings on Richard Grinnell, who is a partisan warrior, very combative guy. 00:11:49.616 --> 00:11:52.334 And his job is really to remake the center. 00:11:52.418 --> 00:11:55.267 So he starts berating people in the hallways, 00:11:55.350 --> 00:11:58.981 complaining about their activities vis-a-vis programming. 00:11:59.064 --> 00:12:03.217 He conducts mass firings. They started calling it Firing Fridays, 00:12:03.300 --> 00:12:08.365 where you get an email and you get 20 minutes to leave the building accompanied 00:12:08.448 --> 00:12:09.281 by security. 00:12:11.470 --> 00:12:16.685 the staff, one of the departments he targets is the fundraising department. 00:12:16.768 --> 00:12:22.195 He boasts that he reduced the numbers of people who were charged with bringing 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:24.610 money in the door from 93 to 17%. 00:12:24.760 --> 00:12:25.593 fundraisers. 00:12:25.900 --> 00:12:30.311 Wow, a pretty interesting decision for a nonprofit that relies, I assume, 00:12:30.394 --> 00:12:34.375 quite heavily on fundraising. Exactly. So as this purge continues, 00:12:34.458 --> 00:12:39.238 performers and artists who are scheduled to perform at the center start getting 00:12:39.322 --> 00:12:42.347 wind of this. And they're objecting and canceling. 00:12:42.430 --> 00:12:47.295 And he starts fighting with them, saying that the reason that they're leaving 00:12:47.378 --> 00:12:51.087 is because they are so woke and I'm trying to do, you know, 00:12:51.170 --> 00:12:53.979 a different thing here and it doesn't matter. 00:12:54.062 --> 00:12:57.128 But the end result was ticket sales are plunging. 00:12:57.211 --> 00:13:00.810 Audiences are plunging. Performances are being canceled. 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.800 Mm hmm. So at this point in our autopsy, Trump 00:13:05.980 --> 00:13:08.957 via Grinnell, is taking actions... 00:13:09.040 --> 00:13:14.207 that become offensive to these artists who are turning around and undertaking 00:13:14.290 --> 00:13:15.123 the kind of 00:13:15.670 --> 00:13:18.510 protests that would seem... 00:13:18.820 --> 00:13:24.200 to make Trump's point about elitism, even if originally Trump's 00:13:24.430 --> 00:13:27.364 approach to the center was inaccurate. Yeah. 00:13:27.447 --> 00:13:32.850 So while Grinnell is claiming that this exodus of artists was due to ideological 00:13:32.934 --> 00:13:38.131 reasons, at the same time, he starts to use ideology as a basis for extending 00:13:38.214 --> 00:13:42.452 invitations to others to come into the center. Hello, everyone. 00:13:42.535 --> 00:13:46.772 Good morning. Like CPAC staged a conference on ending Christian 00:13:46.855 --> 00:13:50.010 persecution. Beautiful, beautiful and historic 00:13:54.430 --> 00:13:58.184 the Kennedy Center, Richard Grinnell, for giving us the space. 00:13:58.267 --> 00:14:02.021 They received a deeply discounted rate for renting the center. 00:14:02.105 --> 00:14:05.426 CPAC being the Conservative Political Action Committee, 00:14:05.509 --> 00:14:09.470 not a group we associate with a performing arts center. Exactly. 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:13.547 This is the official bowl for the World Cup. 00:14:13.630 --> 00:14:17.056 And we are now going to do the draw. For free, 00:14:17.140 --> 00:14:22.931 FIFA came in for their draw that year, which was something that the president 00:14:23.014 --> 00:14:28.730 really liked and wanted. President Trump, up to you. Don't forget to mingle. 00:14:28.813 --> 00:14:32.170 I think I know what this is going to be now. 00:14:33.220 --> 00:14:38.561 it suddenly became the kind of place that would welcome him in the way that he 00:14:38.645 --> 00:14:42.347 expected to be welcomed in his first term. So while... 00:14:42.430 --> 00:14:47.866 Trump and Grinnell were complaining that the Kennedy Center had been captured 00:14:47.950 --> 00:14:53.816 by the political left. In fact, they were embarking on a project to sort of make it 00:14:53.899 --> 00:14:59.479 a political playground of the right. And I think the sort of apotheosis of this 00:14:59.562 --> 00:15:03.349 was the Kennedy Center honors. Not only did he attend, 00:15:03.433 --> 00:15:05.807 but he was a political playground. 00:15:05.890 --> 00:15:08.794 with all of his friends and his political supporters. 00:15:08.877 --> 00:15:13.134 - A very big hello and welcome to-- - He made himself the emcee of the event. 00:15:13.217 --> 00:15:14.570 - This is the first time 00:15:14.980 --> 00:15:20.853 that a president of the United States has ever hosted this phenomenal event. 00:15:20.936 --> 00:15:24.620 I don't know why I'm doing it. And as he was... 00:15:24.730 --> 00:15:28.220 you know, presenting the honors and speaking, 00:15:28.303 --> 00:15:32.032 he started to hint around at the idea that, hmm, 00:15:32.115 --> 00:15:37.352 maybe this place is so welcoming on the inside. Trump-Kennedy said, 00:15:37.435 --> 00:15:40.850 I mean, Kennedy said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 00:15:42.670 --> 00:15:45.110 Maybe my name should be on the outside. 00:15:48.760 --> 00:15:49.760 Thank you. 00:15:52.150 --> 00:15:58.367 And less than two weeks later, His handpicked board met and they voted vote. 00:15:58.450 --> 00:16:00.700 to put his name on the outside of the center. 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:06.354 They took the hint. They did. And his name went on the center one day later, 00:16:06.438 --> 00:16:09.720 and he got top billing over John F. Kennedy. 00:16:10.420 --> 00:16:13.757 And so then the center became renamed 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:18.977 The Donald J. Trump and, on the first line... 00:16:19.060 --> 00:16:25.660 The John F. Kennedy Memorial Center for the Performing Arts on the second line. 00:16:26.950 --> 00:16:30.710 So Trump basically... puts his name... 00:16:30.940 --> 00:16:33.080 atop the original name, 00:16:33.250 --> 00:16:35.387 And my recollection is it's basically the same thing. 00:16:35.470 --> 00:16:42.172 scale of font. Exactly. And it had this sense of being less a renaming and more 00:16:42.256 --> 00:16:47.380 of a giant edit. But it was the way they could do it In the swiftest way possible. 00:16:48.400 --> 00:16:51.640 Elizabeth, what was the reaction when... 00:16:52.150 --> 00:16:54.530 Everyone wakes up to this edit. 00:16:55.150 --> 00:16:56.910 to the John F. Kennedy 00:16:57.460 --> 00:17:04.097 Performing Arts Center's signage. The reaction was swift and it was profound. 00:17:04.180 --> 00:17:07.230 This was... Plain and simple, now his. 00:17:07.690 --> 00:17:10.490 And anyone who passed by could see that. 00:17:12.810 --> 00:17:15.617 And this renaming... 00:17:15.700 --> 00:17:21.499 really was the beginning of the end, because it triggered a legal battle 00:17:21.582 --> 00:17:26.564 that brought us to where we are today, with the center closed, 00:17:26.648 --> 00:17:28.200 maybe indefinitely. 00:17:34.570 --> 00:17:35.570 We'll be right back. 00:17:39.190 --> 00:17:43.611 So, Elizabeth, how does Trump's decision to put his name on the Kennedy Center 00:17:43.694 --> 00:17:46.870 become, as you say, the beginning of the end for Trump? 00:17:46.990 --> 00:17:49.190 The center, tell us about this legal battle. 00:17:49.570 --> 00:17:54.447 So on the Kennedy Center board, there are these so-called ex-officio members. 00:17:54.530 --> 00:17:59.858 They're members of Congress that could not be purged by the president when he remade 00:17:59.941 --> 00:18:04.427 the board. And one of them is Joyce Beatty, a congresswoman from Ohio. 00:18:04.510 --> 00:18:08.567 She filed suit after he renamed the center. 00:18:08.650 --> 00:18:13.621 And her argument was that legally, this renaming could only be done by Congress. 00:18:13.704 --> 00:18:15.410 And what's her logic there? 00:18:15.670 --> 00:18:19.981 Well, it's based in the center's origins. So back in the 1950s, 00:18:20.064 --> 00:18:25.561 when Dwight D. Eisenhower established what he wanted to be a globally recognized 00:18:25.645 --> 00:18:30.235 cultural center, it took an act of Congress to do that. So in 1958, 00:18:30.318 --> 00:18:35.676 Congress passed legislation establishing what was called the National Cultural 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.270 Center. And that was its official... 00:18:38.410 --> 00:18:41.200 The National... Cultural Center. 00:18:41.500 --> 00:18:44.484 Yes, exactly. And when Kennedy was elected, 00:18:44.567 --> 00:18:50.333 he and First Lady Jackie Kennedy were big champions of the arts and the performing 00:18:50.417 --> 00:18:54.899 arts in particular. So they worked with Eisenhower and his wife, 00:18:54.982 --> 00:19:00.177 Mamie Eisenhower, to build support and funds for the new National Cultural 00:19:00.261 --> 00:19:01.094 Center. 00:19:01.870 --> 00:19:06.611 After Kennedy was assassinated, Congress stepped in again and they renamed 00:19:06.695 --> 00:19:11.650 the National Cultural Center in Kennedy's honor as a living memorial to him. 00:19:12.430 --> 00:19:17.541 So Congresswoman Beatty's argument is basically that because Congress turned 00:19:17.624 --> 00:19:20.411 this into a memorial to President Kennedy, 00:19:20.494 --> 00:19:25.195 only an act of Congress can change the name back or to something else. 00:19:25.278 --> 00:19:30.053 Right. Not. the president and not even the Kennedy Center's board, only Congress. 00:19:30.137 --> 00:19:34.765 Got it. That's right. So what happens with a lawsuit? So pretty swiftly, 00:19:34.849 --> 00:19:39.909 a court rules that Beatty is right, that it would take an act of Congress to rename 00:19:39.992 --> 00:19:43.875 the building. And around the same time, the president, you know, 00:19:43.958 --> 00:19:47.779 hates this idea, of course, that his name would come off of it, 00:19:47.862 --> 00:19:52.510 that his name would come off the building. And so when word spread of that. 00:19:52.870 --> 00:19:56.907 Washington had a whole day knowing that this was going to happen, 00:19:56.991 --> 00:19:59.970 and this festival-like crowd gathered to watch. 00:20:01.460 --> 00:20:04.660 - So it was hundreds of people chanting, singing, you know, 00:20:04.743 --> 00:20:06.580 waiting for his name to come off. 00:20:06.800 --> 00:20:09.955 So finally, they rolled scaffolding into place, 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:15.620 and the crowd really went crazy, thinking, okay, this is finally going to happen. 00:20:16.700 --> 00:20:21.877 And the director of the center could look out and see that this was something 00:20:21.961 --> 00:20:26.060 that the president wasn't really going to want to see on TV. 00:20:27.830 --> 00:20:32.761 Then they started to unroll tarps that would obscure the entire operation 00:20:32.844 --> 00:20:37.362 of removing his name off the building. Hide it, basically. Exactly. 00:20:37.446 --> 00:20:41.346 So behind the tarps, they started to take the letters off. 00:20:41.429 --> 00:20:45.879 But they did this at 2.30, 3 o'clock in the morning. By that time, 00:20:45.962 --> 00:20:51.374 most of the crowd was gone. And so there was a relative handful of us that could 00:20:51.457 --> 00:20:56.731 kind of sneak and peer around the edge of the tarps where they met the wall of 00:20:56.814 --> 00:21:02.122 the center. That was really all you had a window into. And then beyond that, 00:21:02.206 --> 00:21:05.815 they left the tarps up, where they remain to this day, 00:21:05.898 --> 00:21:09.590 so you could never see that his name had been removed. 00:21:13.730 --> 00:21:18.567 But of course, his name was removed, even if the removal remains hidden by a tarp. 00:21:18.650 --> 00:21:21.987 And given everything you've laid out in our conversation, 00:21:22.070 --> 00:21:26.030 I have to imagine that this was a really painful moment for Trump. 00:21:26.270 --> 00:21:28.170 Because his entire life 00:21:28.580 --> 00:21:33.920 answer to this wounded relationship he had with the Kennedy Center was just 00:21:34.100 --> 00:21:38.093 to take it over and to make it more and more his own. 00:21:38.176 --> 00:21:40.560 And for a brief shining moment, 00:21:40.910 --> 00:21:45.882 He literally has his name on the outside. The takeover is total and complete. 00:21:45.965 --> 00:21:49.470 But now that... is being... taken from him. 00:21:49.760 --> 00:21:51.837 Yeah, and you could see that... 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:54.980 by the emergence of a different argument. 00:21:55.130 --> 00:22:01.166 vis-a-vis the Kennedy Center. And that was the president increasingly started to say 00:22:01.250 --> 00:22:07.213 that the center is in terrible disrepair. And this was really ironic because a year 00:22:07.296 --> 00:22:10.637 prior, he had gotten $527 million from the big, 00:22:10.721 --> 00:22:14.644 beautiful bill to do renovations of the Kennedy Center. 00:22:14.728 --> 00:22:20.545 And Congress appropriates money every year for maintenance of the Kennedy Center. 00:22:20.629 --> 00:22:21.462 So what was 00:22:25.130 --> 00:22:29.450 Center after Rick Grinnell departed was a guy whose specialty 00:22:29.570 --> 00:22:34.497 According to the president, he's a pro at construction. Why had this... 00:22:34.580 --> 00:22:40.014 center suddenly becomes so dangerous, as soon as this name came off the building, 00:22:40.097 --> 00:22:45.667 that it would have to be closed. So if I'm reading between the lines of what you're 00:22:45.751 --> 00:22:49.020 saying here, it seems like once the president... 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:53.660 has lost the battle to have his name on the outside of the building. 00:22:53.930 --> 00:23:00.110 He... begins to lose interest in the Kennedy Center functioning at all 00:23:00.530 --> 00:23:03.230 Either it's mine or it's closed. 00:23:03.890 --> 00:23:07.134 And then he starts to go further and say, well, 00:23:07.217 --> 00:23:12.585 maybe it doesn't need just to be closed. Maybe the center will be demolished. 00:23:12.669 --> 00:23:16.350 It will be ripped down on social media, in Facebook. 00:23:16.490 --> 00:23:20.550 comments to reporters, he starts to raise the idea that 00:23:20.780 --> 00:23:22.600 it would be torn down completely. 00:23:24.050 --> 00:23:28.332 All the presidents talk about the need for renovations and this rather drastic 00:23:28.415 --> 00:23:32.698 thought that perhaps the Kennedy Center should be demolished all seems to rest 00:23:32.781 --> 00:23:37.119 on the idea that the Kennedy Center is in a really sad, sorry, dangerous shape. 00:23:37.202 --> 00:23:38.550 Is that true? True. 00:23:39.380 --> 00:23:43.257 Well, I'm not an engineer, but I can say that... 00:23:43.340 --> 00:23:47.858 Over the last few months, I've probably made 25 trips to the Kennedy Center. 00:23:47.941 --> 00:23:52.300 I never saw anything that suggested a serious danger to people's safety. 00:23:54.230 --> 00:23:55.063 But... 00:23:55.160 --> 00:24:00.681 What happened earlier this month was that heavy storms in Washington brought down 00:24:00.765 --> 00:24:05.041 a five-foot chunk of plaster in the main foyer of the building. 00:24:05.124 --> 00:24:09.717 This is something that, you know, definitely needed to be repaired. 00:24:09.800 --> 00:24:15.088 But instead of just making that repair, they closed that enormous section of 00:24:15.172 --> 00:24:20.257 the building They found security camera footage of the plaster actually falling, 00:24:20.340 --> 00:24:25.509 spread that around on social media. They measured the shards of plaster as they lay 00:24:25.592 --> 00:24:30.128 on the carpet. They measured the size of what they called a debris field, 00:24:30.212 --> 00:24:32.300 like this was a plane crash. Hmm. 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:38.106 Nobody cleaned up the mess left by the falling plaster for two weeks. 00:24:38.189 --> 00:24:42.687 In the meantime, this chunk of plaster became a sort of 00:24:42.770 --> 00:24:45.810 politically tinged argument for 00:24:46.190 --> 00:24:50.456 Giving the president what he wants, a closure of the place, 00:24:50.539 --> 00:24:54.068 which is exactly what happened on September 15th. 00:24:54.151 --> 00:24:56.457 The Kennedy Center board closed. 00:24:56.540 --> 00:24:58.880 voted to close the building entirely. 00:24:59.630 --> 00:25:03.390 Elizabeth, what's the impact of the Kennedy Center on 00:25:03.830 --> 00:25:10.580 being totally closed now. 2,500 people have lost their jobs. 00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:16.434 There are no paid performances there any longer where there used to be many in 00:25:16.517 --> 00:25:17.350 a day. 00:25:17.780 --> 00:25:22.220 There are no tours. No one sees the exhibits, the art, anything. 00:25:23.420 --> 00:25:29.083 It's just the absolute antithesis of how Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy 00:25:29.166 --> 00:25:34.519 and Congress conceived it. John F. Kennedy Center for the Glory of Us. 00:25:34.602 --> 00:25:37.320 And that led to protests last week. 00:25:37.760 --> 00:25:42.386 by thousands of people. This place has a lot of personal memories for me, 00:25:42.470 --> 00:25:46.644 times that I went on my first date here, came here with my family, 00:25:46.728 --> 00:25:52.077 came here with my husband. Who came just to say Sure, this needs to reopen. 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:57.400 but also just to mourn all that had happened that had gotten it to that point. 00:25:57.650 --> 00:26:02.645 I played 18 hours Christmas music in the Grand Hall at Christmas time this last 00:26:02.729 --> 00:26:06.374 year. People who had a lot of memories in the place. Well, 00:26:06.457 --> 00:26:11.774 when my mom was alive, every Mother's Day we got her a ticket to the summer musical. 00:26:11.857 --> 00:26:14.750 And that was like an annual family tradition. 00:26:14.870 --> 00:26:18.812 and they wanted to share what it meant to them. I mean, 00:26:18.896 --> 00:26:21.750 it's a beloved art space for all of us. 00:26:21.890 --> 00:26:27.450 an affordable option for many people if you couldn't afford to buy tickets. 00:26:27.560 --> 00:26:32.568 It put the lie to the way the president had characterized the Kennedy Center, 00:26:32.651 --> 00:26:35.560 that it was a place that welcomed everybody. 00:26:35.660 --> 00:26:39.087 that really set out to bring people in. 00:26:39.170 --> 00:26:41.070 not to exclude them. 00:26:44.230 --> 00:26:48.420 And at one point during the protests, people lay tans. 00:26:48.860 --> 00:26:51.460 to form a human chain around the building. 00:26:53.800 --> 00:26:58.405 And it was like they were protecting something that was a living thing. 00:26:58.489 --> 00:27:00.800 And to them, it was a living thing. 00:27:01.310 --> 00:27:05.930 But now it was padlocked and closed and fenced off. 00:27:10.560 --> 00:27:15.800 The opera has moved elsewhere. They perform outside the Kennedy Center now. 00:27:16.100 --> 00:27:17.397 The Symphony 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:23.940 performs elsewhere. The performances that were there took years to book. 00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:28.551 You're saying firing up this particular machine, 00:27:28.634 --> 00:27:34.318 if it were to happen even tomorrow, would take a very, very long time. 00:27:34.401 --> 00:27:38.520 The arts just don't show up in a center like this. 00:27:38.930 --> 00:27:41.250 On a dime. Exactly. 00:27:42.560 --> 00:27:48.247 And now that Trump has so thoroughly politicized it and personalized it, 00:27:48.331 --> 00:27:53.540 made the Kennedy Center entirely about himself, all that is gone. 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:58.720 there's no guarantee even if it does return. 00:27:58.820 --> 00:28:01.380 that it could ever be the same as it was before. 00:28:06.710 --> 00:28:11.450 Thank you. Thank you. 00:28:11.750 --> 00:28:15.730 Thank you. Bye. 00:28:16.820 --> 00:28:17.653 Bye. 00:28:20.670 --> 00:28:25.330 Well, Elizabeth, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thank you, Michael. 00:28:26.930 --> 00:28:30.920 Bye. Thank you. 00:28:31.970 --> 00:28:36.030 We'll be right back. 00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:47.011 Here's what else you need to know today. Some MSNOW journalists are just now 00:28:47.095 --> 00:28:51.728 regaining access to the White House, happening as we have been speaking right 00:28:51.811 --> 00:28:55.157 now. On Thursday afternoon, reporters for CNN, Politico, 00:28:55.241 --> 00:29:00.057 and MSNOW were allowed to re-enter the White House grounds after a federal judge 00:29:00.140 --> 00:29:04.467 ruled hours earlier that the president's decision to ban them was likely 00:29:04.550 --> 00:29:09.122 unconstitutional. Laura, if you hear me, I want to get to you right away for 00:29:09.205 --> 00:29:11.900 the latest in what your experience has been. 00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:17.239 Yeah, I hear you, Peter. So I was just allowed back into the White House through 00:29:17.322 --> 00:29:22.800 the Northwest gate. Trump's compliance with the ruling brought to an end for now. 00:29:22.940 --> 00:29:26.727 a days-long standoff over press freedom. 00:29:26.810 --> 00:29:32.353 That standoff triggered a rare act of coordinated protest by major TV networks, 00:29:32.436 --> 00:29:37.623 which have refused to record and distribute video of the president as they 00:29:37.707 --> 00:29:38.540 usually do. 00:29:40.390 --> 00:29:45.431 And the average 30-year mortgage rate surpassed 7% this week, 00:29:45.514 --> 00:29:52.319 an ominous sign for a housing market in which prices are already historically high 00:29:52.402 --> 00:29:53.830 and out of reach. 00:29:56.810 --> 00:29:59.917 borrowing costs this steep. Potential buyers 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.300 increasingly unlikely to purchase a home. 00:30:07.580 --> 00:30:13.331 Today's episode was produced by Lexi Dio, Jack Dissidoro, and Eric Krupke. 00:30:13.415 --> 00:30:18.540 It was edited by Patricia Willans, with help from Michael Benoit. 00:30:18.930 --> 00:30:21.907 contains original music by Diane Wong. 00:30:21.990 --> 00:30:26.557 and music by Marion Lozano will read. Alicia Baitube, 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.220 and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. 00:30:30.690 --> 00:30:32.850 Our theme music is by Wonderly. 00:30:33.300 --> 00:30:35.780 Special thanks to Afim Shapiro. 00:30:38.260 --> 00:30:41.820 That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. 00:30:41.910 --> 00:30:43.430 See you on Sunday.