1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:08,200 Oh, yeah. You know, this is what they play when the performance is about to start. 2 00:00:08,668 --> 00:00:11,400 Yes. You're calling people in. 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,260 So a few months ago, I took a tour of the Kennedy Center with a tour guide there. 4 00:00:19,700 --> 00:00:22,859 Oh, can I get your name? Oh, Sandy Weiswasser. 5 00:00:22,942 --> 00:00:28,387 A volunteer named Sandy Weiswasser. Wow, I got to spell that out. W-E-I-S-W-E. 6 00:00:28,470 --> 00:00:34,830 She's 87 years old. She's a huge bundle of energy. And for the last 20 years, 7 00:00:35,100 --> 00:00:39,227 She's given tours every single Monday. Are you an artist yourself? 8 00:00:39,310 --> 00:00:42,608 Am I an artist? No, I play the piano, though. You do? 9 00:00:42,691 --> 00:00:47,167 And I tell a lot about the arts. I mean, I love ballet and opera and... 10 00:00:47,250 --> 00:00:49,858 Before President Trump took over the Kennedy Center, 11 00:00:49,942 --> 00:00:51,650 Sandy's tours were always packed. 12 00:00:52,050 --> 00:00:57,090 you But then he took over, made a lot of changes, and people stopped coming. 13 00:00:59,250 --> 00:01:03,034 And so on the day that I was there, the center was empty, 14 00:01:03,118 --> 00:01:05,884 and I was the only person on Sandy's tour. 15 00:01:05,968 --> 00:01:09,209 So this foyer apparently is one of the largest... 16 00:01:09,293 --> 00:01:14,298 And as she walked me through the center... The largest gift is this marble, 17 00:01:14,382 --> 00:01:19,810 which comes from Carrara, Italy. Beautiful chandelier. It's done by Dale Chihui. 18 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,807 It was clear how proud she was of the place. 19 00:01:22,890 --> 00:01:25,320 I like the undulating quality of it. 20 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:31,040 And how much she reveres it. No bed seat in the place. No, it doesn't look like it. 21 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,375 But at some point in the tour, it occurred to me that she was speaking in the past 22 00:01:39,458 --> 00:01:43,720 tense. Well, that's the other thing when I give my tours now, do I give them? 23 00:01:43,890 --> 00:01:47,846 Present tense or past tense, it's very hard. 24 00:01:47,930 --> 00:01:51,510 What words to use for my verbs, anyway. 25 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:56,064 And the tour she was giving was kind of a tour of wreckage. 26 00:01:56,147 --> 00:02:02,442 And what she was explaining and all of her memories started to sound a lot to me like 27 00:02:02,526 --> 00:02:08,371 a eulogy. So, I mean, all these little things about all the performers that are 28 00:02:08,454 --> 00:02:13,639 no longer here is very sad. And it also became clear that in Sandy's mind, 29 00:02:13,722 --> 00:02:18,710 there was one person responsible for all that had happened to the Kennedy Center. 30 00:02:19,140 --> 00:02:23,592 I mean, this place used to be really thriving and busy and crowded. 31 00:02:23,675 --> 00:02:27,060 Now it's very empty. And that was President Trump. 32 00:02:28,950 --> 00:02:32,750 From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. 33 00:02:38,830 --> 00:02:44,467 Today, the life and, for the time being, the death of the Kennedy Center. 34 00:02:44,550 --> 00:02:48,930 My colleague, Elizabeth Williamson, 35 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:54,720 brings us the story of how President Trump decided to take over and now shut down 36 00:02:55,110 --> 00:02:59,180 Washington's biggest, and most celebrated home for the arts. 37 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,960 It's Friday, September 25th. 38 00:03:07,170 --> 00:03:10,830 Thank you. 39 00:03:13,140 --> 00:03:18,067 Elizabeth. Welcome back to The Daily. Michael, it's great to join you. 40 00:03:18,150 --> 00:03:22,039 You have been watching the Kennedy Center shut down for months, 41 00:03:22,122 --> 00:03:25,567 first gradually and then abruptly, when it literally... 42 00:03:25,650 --> 00:03:30,330 closed its doors about 10 days ago. So we're coming to you for what 43 00:03:30,450 --> 00:03:36,320 feels a bit like a post-mortem here to understand why President Trump has closed 44 00:03:36,403 --> 00:03:38,710 this place down. And I think... 45 00:03:38,820 --> 00:03:43,027 any Good Postmortem has to begin with the question... 46 00:03:43,110 --> 00:03:47,237 of motivation. How do you think about his motivation here? 47 00:03:47,321 --> 00:03:52,319 I think you have to go back to President Trump's first term. Remember, 48 00:03:52,403 --> 00:03:56,458 this was a really brutal election with a surprise result. 49 00:03:56,541 --> 00:04:01,970 He comes into the White House. He had been Roundly rejected by people 50 00:04:02,190 --> 00:04:08,347 cultural elites in New York City, the epicenter of the nation's cultural life. 51 00:04:08,430 --> 00:04:09,790 And he comes into 52 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,105 Washington, where the center of the cultural life in the Capitol is 53 00:04:14,188 --> 00:04:18,480 the Kennedy Center. Right. And he's thinking, I'm the president now. 54 00:04:20,130 --> 00:04:25,340 Surely he'll be welcomed. more broadly by the culture once he's in the White House. 55 00:04:26,010 --> 00:04:29,050 But instead, that rejection really continued. 56 00:04:30,730 --> 00:04:36,358 And there was probably no better example in that first year than the annual Kennedy 57 00:04:36,441 --> 00:04:41,243 Center Honors, which is the Kennedy Center's biggest night of the year. 58 00:04:41,326 --> 00:04:44,010 And what form does that rejection take? 59 00:04:56,010 --> 00:05:00,356 at the Kennedy Center, or they were considering not coming. 60 00:05:00,439 --> 00:05:06,737 Why did you decide not to do that? Because he's made me feel it's not my White House. 61 00:05:06,821 --> 00:05:12,743 The first to say this was Norman Lear, who created All in the Family and many of 62 00:05:12,826 --> 00:05:18,223 our most beloved sitcoms and television shows. But I've gotten over that. 63 00:05:18,307 --> 00:05:21,610 It is my White House. It oughtn't to be his. 64 00:05:26,010 --> 00:05:31,802 photographer said out now no I just can't I'm absolutely not going I am 86 now I 65 00:05:31,885 --> 00:05:37,603 have all these years I have done what anybody asked me to and this is the first 66 00:05:37,687 --> 00:05:40,110 time in my life I've ever said no 67 00:05:40,530 --> 00:05:45,010 Lionel Richie, who was also an honoree that year, said, well, you know, 68 00:05:45,093 --> 00:05:49,959 I'm going to just play it by ear. I can't decide if I'll go. I must tell you, 69 00:05:50,042 --> 00:05:53,770 I'm not really happy as to what's going on right now with. 70 00:05:54,870 --> 00:06:00,712 the controversies and the weekly... And I think that that was quite a realization 71 00:06:00,796 --> 00:06:06,858 for him. He had gotten to the absolute top of our hierarchy and still that rejection 72 00:06:06,941 --> 00:06:12,564 continued. So Trump's response to that was to say, okay, if you don't want me, 73 00:06:12,647 --> 00:06:18,197 I don't want you either. And he just was generally a no-show for the entirety 74 00:06:18,281 --> 00:06:24,340 of his four-year term. . So for the next four years, Trump... 75 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,764 Basically boycotts. the Kennedy Center and thoroughly writes it off. Yes. 76 00:06:29,847 --> 00:06:33,533 And so when he begins his second term in 2025, you know, 77 00:06:33,616 --> 00:06:39,254 this is now he's newly energized. He's got a different agenda when he comes in in his 78 00:06:39,337 --> 00:06:41,737 second term. As we well know, he is. 79 00:06:41,820 --> 00:06:48,157 Vowing to be people's retribution, but he's also remaking aspects of society, 80 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:53,743 including our cultural life. He comes in as an anti-woke president. 81 00:06:53,827 --> 00:06:59,580 He won on that. So barely in office for a month, 18 days to be exact. 82 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,100 He starts to launch a plan. To. 83 00:07:03,690 --> 00:07:05,450 Take over the Kennedy Center. 84 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,800 And take it over how, just like logistically, what – 85 00:07:11,070 --> 00:07:15,120 power does he have over it and how does he end up Taking it over. 86 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,464 So the president has the power to appoint board members to the Kennedy Center, 87 00:07:20,547 --> 00:07:24,967 and they basically oversee the running of the center itself. Typically, 88 00:07:25,050 --> 00:07:30,231 the board members serve six-year terms, so you had overlapping administration board 89 00:07:30,314 --> 00:07:33,973 members, appointees. Democrats, Republicans. Exactly. Yeah. 90 00:07:34,056 --> 00:07:38,940 And they work together, and that was the way the Kennedy Center was designed. 91 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:50,150 And then stacked the board with people who were loyal to himself, 92 00:07:50,234 --> 00:07:55,568 his chief of staff, Susie Wiles, the wife of the vice president, Usha Vance, 93 00:07:55,651 --> 00:08:00,344 Howard Lutnick's wife. And so they came in and took over the board. 94 00:08:00,427 --> 00:08:05,560 And then their first move was to vote to replace the chairman with Usha. 95 00:08:05,670 --> 00:08:10,009 Mr. Trump and the existing chairman, David Rubenstein, 96 00:08:10,092 --> 00:08:14,840 he had personally given $111 million to the Kennedy Center, 97 00:08:14,924 --> 00:08:17,790 its facilities and its programming. 98 00:08:18,420 --> 00:08:25,350 So immediately – the president replaces this mega philanthropist, 99 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:31,320 to the Kennedy Center, with basically himself. Yes. And what does... 100 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:36,800 Chairman of the Kennedy Center Trump, do with this newfound power? 101 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:42,101 It's a very exciting development. So President Trump convenes a call with his 102 00:08:42,184 --> 00:08:47,393 new handpicked board members, but he starts by bashing it as what he thinks it 103 00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:49,800 is. It got very wokey. 104 00:08:49,890 --> 00:08:55,447 a bastion of cultural elites. And some people were not happy with it. 105 00:08:55,530 --> 00:08:59,243 And some people refuse to go. And we're not going to have that. 106 00:08:59,327 --> 00:09:04,065 Doing programming that everyday Americans aren't interested in and might even be 107 00:09:04,148 --> 00:09:09,150 offended by. And he's going to change all that. I think we're going to make it hot. 108 00:09:09,270 --> 00:09:12,570 And we made the presidency hot, so this should be easy. 109 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:14,880 and make the Kennedy Center hot again. 110 00:09:18,660 --> 00:09:25,220 I'm curious if there's any truth to what Trump is saying to this board. Is it? 111 00:09:25,350 --> 00:09:26,407 elitist 112 00:09:26,490 --> 00:09:33,142 does it have a left wing tilt so i think here is where you realize what a radical 113 00:09:33,225 --> 00:09:37,050 misconception the president was laboring under 114 00:09:37,260 --> 00:09:40,587 And partly due to the fact that for his entire first term, 115 00:09:40,670 --> 00:09:43,140 he didn't step foot in the Kennedy Center. 116 00:09:43,740 --> 00:09:49,954 So it has a symphony, it has an opera, but the vast majority of its programming 117 00:09:50,037 --> 00:09:54,740 is meant to be entertainment, entertainment, entertainment. 118 00:09:55,140 --> 00:09:59,927 popular works. I'll just... 119 00:10:00,010 --> 00:10:04,811 I'll go backstage. No, that's okay, that's okay. I know that song. 120 00:10:04,895 --> 00:10:09,400 That's about my favorite street. Oh, Big Bird! Big Bird! Elmo! 121 00:10:09,484 --> 00:10:12,370 So you're talking about performances... 122 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:15,730 like Big Bird. and Sesame Street characters. 123 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,010 Aretha Franklin. Ladies and gentlemen, Garth Brooks. 124 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,600 Famous church chorale groups. 125 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,472 The Washington Ballet had its children's recital there. 126 00:10:44,555 --> 00:10:47,546 It was their chance to dance on the big stage. 127 00:10:47,629 --> 00:10:52,624 Local little kids doing ballet. Yes. Entire classes of school children came. 128 00:10:52,707 --> 00:10:57,836 My own children's classes came. Kids could run down the hall, the grand foyer, 129 00:10:57,919 --> 00:11:01,060 which is like two football fields long. Mm-hmm. 130 00:11:01,150 --> 00:11:05,458 It was a wide open place. My older son mentioned that the first time he ever saw 131 00:11:05,541 --> 00:11:07,873 Jaws was projected on the side of the reach, 132 00:11:07,956 --> 00:11:10,810 which is the Kennedy Center annex on a summer night. 133 00:11:14,150 --> 00:11:15,350 Shut off that engine. 134 00:11:17,970 --> 00:11:21,802 Pretty popular. Yeah, exactly. It was the kind of place meant to be open 135 00:11:21,885 --> 00:11:24,550 for everyone. You're going to need a bigger boat. 136 00:11:28,510 --> 00:11:30,437 Well, Elizabeth, even if the president's 137 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,580 whole approach to the Kennedy Center is based on a radical misconception of it. 138 00:11:34,870 --> 00:11:37,910 How does this approach work? get put into practice. 139 00:11:38,050 --> 00:11:40,910 in that first few months of him running it. 140 00:11:41,470 --> 00:11:44,515 So to direct the center's day-to-day activities, 141 00:11:44,598 --> 00:11:49,532 he brings on Richard Grinnell, who is a partisan warrior, very combative guy. 142 00:11:49,616 --> 00:11:52,334 And his job is really to remake the center. 143 00:11:52,418 --> 00:11:55,267 So he starts berating people in the hallways, 144 00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:58,981 complaining about their activities vis-a-vis programming. 145 00:11:59,064 --> 00:12:03,217 He conducts mass firings. They started calling it Firing Fridays, 146 00:12:03,300 --> 00:12:08,365 where you get an email and you get 20 minutes to leave the building accompanied 147 00:12:08,448 --> 00:12:09,281 by security. 148 00:12:11,470 --> 00:12:16,685 the staff, one of the departments he targets is the fundraising department. 149 00:12:16,768 --> 00:12:22,195 He boasts that he reduced the numbers of people who were charged with bringing 150 00:12:22,279 --> 00:12:24,610 money in the door from 93 to 17%. 151 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:25,593 fundraisers. 152 00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:30,311 Wow, a pretty interesting decision for a nonprofit that relies, I assume, 153 00:12:30,394 --> 00:12:34,375 quite heavily on fundraising. Exactly. So as this purge continues, 154 00:12:34,458 --> 00:12:39,238 performers and artists who are scheduled to perform at the center start getting 155 00:12:39,322 --> 00:12:42,347 wind of this. And they're objecting and canceling. 156 00:12:42,430 --> 00:12:47,295 And he starts fighting with them, saying that the reason that they're leaving 157 00:12:47,378 --> 00:12:51,087 is because they are so woke and I'm trying to do, you know, 158 00:12:51,170 --> 00:12:53,979 a different thing here and it doesn't matter. 159 00:12:54,062 --> 00:12:57,128 But the end result was ticket sales are plunging. 160 00:12:57,211 --> 00:13:00,810 Audiences are plunging. Performances are being canceled. 161 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,800 Mm hmm. So at this point in our autopsy, Trump 162 00:13:05,980 --> 00:13:08,957 via Grinnell, is taking actions... 163 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:14,207 that become offensive to these artists who are turning around and undertaking 164 00:13:14,290 --> 00:13:15,123 the kind of 165 00:13:15,670 --> 00:13:18,510 protests that would seem... 166 00:13:18,820 --> 00:13:24,200 to make Trump's point about elitism, even if originally Trump's 167 00:13:24,430 --> 00:13:27,364 approach to the center was inaccurate. Yeah. 168 00:13:27,447 --> 00:13:32,850 So while Grinnell is claiming that this exodus of artists was due to ideological 169 00:13:32,934 --> 00:13:38,131 reasons, at the same time, he starts to use ideology as a basis for extending 170 00:13:38,214 --> 00:13:42,452 invitations to others to come into the center. Hello, everyone. 171 00:13:42,535 --> 00:13:46,772 Good morning. Like CPAC staged a conference on ending Christian 172 00:13:46,855 --> 00:13:50,010 persecution. Beautiful, beautiful and historic 173 00:13:54,430 --> 00:13:58,184 the Kennedy Center, Richard Grinnell, for giving us the space. 174 00:13:58,267 --> 00:14:02,021 They received a deeply discounted rate for renting the center. 175 00:14:02,105 --> 00:14:05,426 CPAC being the Conservative Political Action Committee, 176 00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:09,470 not a group we associate with a performing arts center. Exactly. 177 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,547 This is the official bowl for the World Cup. 178 00:14:13,630 --> 00:14:17,056 And we are now going to do the draw. For free, 179 00:14:17,140 --> 00:14:22,931 FIFA came in for their draw that year, which was something that the president 180 00:14:23,014 --> 00:14:28,730 really liked and wanted. President Trump, up to you. Don't forget to mingle. 181 00:14:28,813 --> 00:14:32,170 I think I know what this is going to be now. 182 00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:38,561 it suddenly became the kind of place that would welcome him in the way that he 183 00:14:38,645 --> 00:14:42,347 expected to be welcomed in his first term. So while... 184 00:14:42,430 --> 00:14:47,866 Trump and Grinnell were complaining that the Kennedy Center had been captured 185 00:14:47,950 --> 00:14:53,816 by the political left. In fact, they were embarking on a project to sort of make it 186 00:14:53,899 --> 00:14:59,479 a political playground of the right. And I think the sort of apotheosis of this 187 00:14:59,562 --> 00:15:03,349 was the Kennedy Center honors. Not only did he attend, 188 00:15:03,433 --> 00:15:05,807 but he was a political playground. 189 00:15:05,890 --> 00:15:08,794 with all of his friends and his political supporters. 190 00:15:08,877 --> 00:15:13,134 - A very big hello and welcome to-- - He made himself the emcee of the event. 191 00:15:13,217 --> 00:15:14,570 - This is the first time 192 00:15:14,980 --> 00:15:20,853 that a president of the United States has ever hosted this phenomenal event. 193 00:15:20,936 --> 00:15:24,620 I don't know why I'm doing it. And as he was... 194 00:15:24,730 --> 00:15:28,220 you know, presenting the honors and speaking, 195 00:15:28,303 --> 00:15:32,032 he started to hint around at the idea that, hmm, 196 00:15:32,115 --> 00:15:37,352 maybe this place is so welcoming on the inside. Trump-Kennedy said, 197 00:15:37,435 --> 00:15:40,850 I mean, Kennedy said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 198 00:15:42,670 --> 00:15:45,110 Maybe my name should be on the outside. 199 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:49,760 Thank you. 200 00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:58,367 And less than two weeks later, His handpicked board met and they voted vote. 201 00:15:58,450 --> 00:16:00,700 to put his name on the outside of the center. 202 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,354 They took the hint. They did. And his name went on the center one day later, 203 00:16:06,438 --> 00:16:09,720 and he got top billing over John F. Kennedy. 204 00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:13,757 And so then the center became renamed 205 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:18,977 The Donald J. Trump and, on the first line... 206 00:16:19,060 --> 00:16:25,660 The John F. Kennedy Memorial Center for the Performing Arts on the second line. 207 00:16:26,950 --> 00:16:30,710 So Trump basically... puts his name... 208 00:16:30,940 --> 00:16:33,080 atop the original name, 209 00:16:33,250 --> 00:16:35,387 And my recollection is it's basically the same thing. 210 00:16:35,470 --> 00:16:42,172 scale of font. Exactly. And it had this sense of being less a renaming and more 211 00:16:42,256 --> 00:16:47,380 of a giant edit. But it was the way they could do it In the swiftest way possible. 212 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,640 Elizabeth, what was the reaction when... 213 00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:54,530 Everyone wakes up to this edit. 214 00:16:55,150 --> 00:16:56,910 to the John F. Kennedy 215 00:16:57,460 --> 00:17:04,097 Performing Arts Center's signage. The reaction was swift and it was profound. 216 00:17:04,180 --> 00:17:07,230 This was... Plain and simple, now his. 217 00:17:07,690 --> 00:17:10,490 And anyone who passed by could see that. 218 00:17:12,810 --> 00:17:15,617 And this renaming... 219 00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:21,499 really was the beginning of the end, because it triggered a legal battle 220 00:17:21,582 --> 00:17:26,564 that brought us to where we are today, with the center closed, 221 00:17:26,648 --> 00:17:28,200 maybe indefinitely. 222 00:17:34,570 --> 00:17:35,570 We'll be right back. 223 00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:43,611 So, Elizabeth, how does Trump's decision to put his name on the Kennedy Center 224 00:17:43,694 --> 00:17:46,870 become, as you say, the beginning of the end for Trump? 225 00:17:46,990 --> 00:17:49,190 The center, tell us about this legal battle. 226 00:17:49,570 --> 00:17:54,447 So on the Kennedy Center board, there are these so-called ex-officio members. 227 00:17:54,530 --> 00:17:59,858 They're members of Congress that could not be purged by the president when he remade 228 00:17:59,941 --> 00:18:04,427 the board. And one of them is Joyce Beatty, a congresswoman from Ohio. 229 00:18:04,510 --> 00:18:08,567 She filed suit after he renamed the center. 230 00:18:08,650 --> 00:18:13,621 And her argument was that legally, this renaming could only be done by Congress. 231 00:18:13,704 --> 00:18:15,410 And what's her logic there? 232 00:18:15,670 --> 00:18:19,981 Well, it's based in the center's origins. So back in the 1950s, 233 00:18:20,064 --> 00:18:25,561 when Dwight D. Eisenhower established what he wanted to be a globally recognized 234 00:18:25,645 --> 00:18:30,235 cultural center, it took an act of Congress to do that. So in 1958, 235 00:18:30,318 --> 00:18:35,676 Congress passed legislation establishing what was called the National Cultural 236 00:18:35,759 --> 00:18:38,270 Center. And that was its official... 237 00:18:38,410 --> 00:18:41,200 The National... Cultural Center. 238 00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:44,484 Yes, exactly. And when Kennedy was elected, 239 00:18:44,567 --> 00:18:50,333 he and First Lady Jackie Kennedy were big champions of the arts and the performing 240 00:18:50,417 --> 00:18:54,899 arts in particular. So they worked with Eisenhower and his wife, 241 00:18:54,982 --> 00:19:00,177 Mamie Eisenhower, to build support and funds for the new National Cultural 242 00:19:00,261 --> 00:19:01,094 Center. 243 00:19:01,870 --> 00:19:06,611 After Kennedy was assassinated, Congress stepped in again and they renamed 244 00:19:06,695 --> 00:19:11,650 the National Cultural Center in Kennedy's honor as a living memorial to him. 245 00:19:12,430 --> 00:19:17,541 So Congresswoman Beatty's argument is basically that because Congress turned 246 00:19:17,624 --> 00:19:20,411 this into a memorial to President Kennedy, 247 00:19:20,494 --> 00:19:25,195 only an act of Congress can change the name back or to something else. 248 00:19:25,278 --> 00:19:30,053 Right. Not. the president and not even the Kennedy Center's board, only Congress. 249 00:19:30,137 --> 00:19:34,765 Got it. That's right. So what happens with a lawsuit? So pretty swiftly, 250 00:19:34,849 --> 00:19:39,909 a court rules that Beatty is right, that it would take an act of Congress to rename 251 00:19:39,992 --> 00:19:43,875 the building. And around the same time, the president, you know, 252 00:19:43,958 --> 00:19:47,779 hates this idea, of course, that his name would come off of it, 253 00:19:47,862 --> 00:19:52,510 that his name would come off the building. And so when word spread of that. 254 00:19:52,870 --> 00:19:56,907 Washington had a whole day knowing that this was going to happen, 255 00:19:56,991 --> 00:19:59,970 and this festival-like crowd gathered to watch. 256 00:20:01,460 --> 00:20:04,660 - So it was hundreds of people chanting, singing, you know, 257 00:20:04,743 --> 00:20:06,580 waiting for his name to come off. 258 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,955 So finally, they rolled scaffolding into place, 259 00:20:10,039 --> 00:20:15,620 and the crowd really went crazy, thinking, okay, this is finally going to happen. 260 00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:21,877 And the director of the center could look out and see that this was something 261 00:20:21,961 --> 00:20:26,060 that the president wasn't really going to want to see on TV. 262 00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:32,761 Then they started to unroll tarps that would obscure the entire operation 263 00:20:32,844 --> 00:20:37,362 of removing his name off the building. Hide it, basically. Exactly. 264 00:20:37,446 --> 00:20:41,346 So behind the tarps, they started to take the letters off. 265 00:20:41,429 --> 00:20:45,879 But they did this at 2.30, 3 o'clock in the morning. By that time, 266 00:20:45,962 --> 00:20:51,374 most of the crowd was gone. And so there was a relative handful of us that could 267 00:20:51,457 --> 00:20:56,731 kind of sneak and peer around the edge of the tarps where they met the wall of 268 00:20:56,814 --> 00:21:02,122 the center. That was really all you had a window into. And then beyond that, 269 00:21:02,206 --> 00:21:05,815 they left the tarps up, where they remain to this day, 270 00:21:05,898 --> 00:21:09,590 so you could never see that his name had been removed. 271 00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:18,567 But of course, his name was removed, even if the removal remains hidden by a tarp. 272 00:21:18,650 --> 00:21:21,987 And given everything you've laid out in our conversation, 273 00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:26,030 I have to imagine that this was a really painful moment for Trump. 274 00:21:26,270 --> 00:21:28,170 Because his entire life 275 00:21:28,580 --> 00:21:33,920 answer to this wounded relationship he had with the Kennedy Center was just 276 00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:38,093 to take it over and to make it more and more his own. 277 00:21:38,176 --> 00:21:40,560 And for a brief shining moment, 278 00:21:40,910 --> 00:21:45,882 He literally has his name on the outside. The takeover is total and complete. 279 00:21:45,965 --> 00:21:49,470 But now that... is being... taken from him. 280 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,837 Yeah, and you could see that... 281 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,980 by the emergence of a different argument. 282 00:21:55,130 --> 00:22:01,166 vis-a-vis the Kennedy Center. And that was the president increasingly started to say 283 00:22:01,250 --> 00:22:07,213 that the center is in terrible disrepair. And this was really ironic because a year 284 00:22:07,296 --> 00:22:10,637 prior, he had gotten $527 million from the big, 285 00:22:10,721 --> 00:22:14,644 beautiful bill to do renovations of the Kennedy Center. 286 00:22:14,728 --> 00:22:20,545 And Congress appropriates money every year for maintenance of the Kennedy Center. 287 00:22:20,629 --> 00:22:21,462 So what was 288 00:22:25,130 --> 00:22:29,450 Center after Rick Grinnell departed was a guy whose specialty 289 00:22:29,570 --> 00:22:34,497 According to the president, he's a pro at construction. Why had this... 290 00:22:34,580 --> 00:22:40,014 center suddenly becomes so dangerous, as soon as this name came off the building, 291 00:22:40,097 --> 00:22:45,667 that it would have to be closed. So if I'm reading between the lines of what you're 292 00:22:45,751 --> 00:22:49,020 saying here, it seems like once the president... 293 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,660 has lost the battle to have his name on the outside of the building. 294 00:22:53,930 --> 00:23:00,110 He... begins to lose interest in the Kennedy Center functioning at all 295 00:23:00,530 --> 00:23:03,230 Either it's mine or it's closed. 296 00:23:03,890 --> 00:23:07,134 And then he starts to go further and say, well, 297 00:23:07,217 --> 00:23:12,585 maybe it doesn't need just to be closed. Maybe the center will be demolished. 298 00:23:12,669 --> 00:23:16,350 It will be ripped down on social media, in Facebook. 299 00:23:16,490 --> 00:23:20,550 comments to reporters, he starts to raise the idea that 300 00:23:20,780 --> 00:23:22,600 it would be torn down completely. 301 00:23:24,050 --> 00:23:28,332 All the presidents talk about the need for renovations and this rather drastic 302 00:23:28,415 --> 00:23:32,698 thought that perhaps the Kennedy Center should be demolished all seems to rest 303 00:23:32,781 --> 00:23:37,119 on the idea that the Kennedy Center is in a really sad, sorry, dangerous shape. 304 00:23:37,202 --> 00:23:38,550 Is that true? True. 305 00:23:39,380 --> 00:23:43,257 Well, I'm not an engineer, but I can say that... 306 00:23:43,340 --> 00:23:47,858 Over the last few months, I've probably made 25 trips to the Kennedy Center. 307 00:23:47,941 --> 00:23:52,300 I never saw anything that suggested a serious danger to people's safety. 308 00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:55,063 But... 309 00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,681 What happened earlier this month was that heavy storms in Washington brought down 310 00:24:00,765 --> 00:24:05,041 a five-foot chunk of plaster in the main foyer of the building. 311 00:24:05,124 --> 00:24:09,717 This is something that, you know, definitely needed to be repaired. 312 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:15,088 But instead of just making that repair, they closed that enormous section of 313 00:24:15,172 --> 00:24:20,257 the building They found security camera footage of the plaster actually falling, 314 00:24:20,340 --> 00:24:25,509 spread that around on social media. They measured the shards of plaster as they lay 315 00:24:25,592 --> 00:24:30,128 on the carpet. They measured the size of what they called a debris field, 316 00:24:30,212 --> 00:24:32,300 like this was a plane crash. Hmm. 317 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:38,106 Nobody cleaned up the mess left by the falling plaster for two weeks. 318 00:24:38,189 --> 00:24:42,687 In the meantime, this chunk of plaster became a sort of 319 00:24:42,770 --> 00:24:45,810 politically tinged argument for 320 00:24:46,190 --> 00:24:50,456 Giving the president what he wants, a closure of the place, 321 00:24:50,539 --> 00:24:54,068 which is exactly what happened on September 15th. 322 00:24:54,151 --> 00:24:56,457 The Kennedy Center board closed. 323 00:24:56,540 --> 00:24:58,880 voted to close the building entirely. 324 00:24:59,630 --> 00:25:03,390 Elizabeth, what's the impact of the Kennedy Center on 325 00:25:03,830 --> 00:25:10,580 being totally closed now. 2,500 people have lost their jobs. 326 00:25:11,150 --> 00:25:16,434 There are no paid performances there any longer where there used to be many in 327 00:25:16,517 --> 00:25:17,350 a day. 328 00:25:17,780 --> 00:25:22,220 There are no tours. No one sees the exhibits, the art, anything. 329 00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:29,083 It's just the absolute antithesis of how Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy 330 00:25:29,166 --> 00:25:34,519 and Congress conceived it. John F. Kennedy Center for the Glory of Us. 331 00:25:34,602 --> 00:25:37,320 And that led to protests last week. 332 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,386 by thousands of people. This place has a lot of personal memories for me, 333 00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:46,644 times that I went on my first date here, came here with my family, 334 00:25:46,728 --> 00:25:52,077 came here with my husband. Who came just to say Sure, this needs to reopen. 335 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,400 but also just to mourn all that had happened that had gotten it to that point. 336 00:25:57,650 --> 00:26:02,645 I played 18 hours Christmas music in the Grand Hall at Christmas time this last 337 00:26:02,729 --> 00:26:06,374 year. People who had a lot of memories in the place. Well, 338 00:26:06,457 --> 00:26:11,774 when my mom was alive, every Mother's Day we got her a ticket to the summer musical. 339 00:26:11,857 --> 00:26:14,750 And that was like an annual family tradition. 340 00:26:14,870 --> 00:26:18,812 and they wanted to share what it meant to them. I mean, 341 00:26:18,896 --> 00:26:21,750 it's a beloved art space for all of us. 342 00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:27,450 an affordable option for many people if you couldn't afford to buy tickets. 343 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:32,568 It put the lie to the way the president had characterized the Kennedy Center, 344 00:26:32,651 --> 00:26:35,560 that it was a place that welcomed everybody. 345 00:26:35,660 --> 00:26:39,087 that really set out to bring people in. 346 00:26:39,170 --> 00:26:41,070 not to exclude them. 347 00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:48,420 And at one point during the protests, people lay tans. 348 00:26:48,860 --> 00:26:51,460 to form a human chain around the building. 349 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,405 And it was like they were protecting something that was a living thing. 350 00:26:58,489 --> 00:27:00,800 And to them, it was a living thing. 351 00:27:01,310 --> 00:27:05,930 But now it was padlocked and closed and fenced off. 352 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,800 The opera has moved elsewhere. They perform outside the Kennedy Center now. 353 00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:17,397 The Symphony 354 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:23,940 performs elsewhere. The performances that were there took years to book. 355 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,551 You're saying firing up this particular machine, 356 00:27:28,634 --> 00:27:34,318 if it were to happen even tomorrow, would take a very, very long time. 357 00:27:34,401 --> 00:27:38,520 The arts just don't show up in a center like this. 358 00:27:38,930 --> 00:27:41,250 On a dime. Exactly. 359 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:48,247 And now that Trump has so thoroughly politicized it and personalized it, 360 00:27:48,331 --> 00:27:53,540 made the Kennedy Center entirely about himself, all that is gone. 361 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,720 there's no guarantee even if it does return. 362 00:27:58,820 --> 00:28:01,380 that it could ever be the same as it was before. 363 00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:11,450 Thank you. Thank you. 364 00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:15,730 Thank you. Bye. 365 00:28:16,820 --> 00:28:17,653 Bye. 366 00:28:20,670 --> 00:28:25,330 Well, Elizabeth, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thank you, Michael. 367 00:28:26,930 --> 00:28:30,920 Bye. Thank you. 368 00:28:31,970 --> 00:28:36,030 We'll be right back. 369 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:47,011 Here's what else you need to know today. Some MSNOW journalists are just now 370 00:28:47,095 --> 00:28:51,728 regaining access to the White House, happening as we have been speaking right 371 00:28:51,811 --> 00:28:55,157 now. On Thursday afternoon, reporters for CNN, Politico, 372 00:28:55,241 --> 00:29:00,057 and MSNOW were allowed to re-enter the White House grounds after a federal judge 373 00:29:00,140 --> 00:29:04,467 ruled hours earlier that the president's decision to ban them was likely 374 00:29:04,550 --> 00:29:09,122 unconstitutional. Laura, if you hear me, I want to get to you right away for 375 00:29:09,205 --> 00:29:11,900 the latest in what your experience has been. 376 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:17,239 Yeah, I hear you, Peter. So I was just allowed back into the White House through 377 00:29:17,322 --> 00:29:22,800 the Northwest gate. Trump's compliance with the ruling brought to an end for now. 378 00:29:22,940 --> 00:29:26,727 a days-long standoff over press freedom. 379 00:29:26,810 --> 00:29:32,353 That standoff triggered a rare act of coordinated protest by major TV networks, 380 00:29:32,436 --> 00:29:37,623 which have refused to record and distribute video of the president as they 381 00:29:37,707 --> 00:29:38,540 usually do. 382 00:29:40,390 --> 00:29:45,431 And the average 30-year mortgage rate surpassed 7% this week, 383 00:29:45,514 --> 00:29:52,319 an ominous sign for a housing market in which prices are already historically high 384 00:29:52,402 --> 00:29:53,830 and out of reach. 385 00:29:56,810 --> 00:29:59,917 borrowing costs this steep. Potential buyers 386 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,300 increasingly unlikely to purchase a home. 387 00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:13,331 Today's episode was produced by Lexi Dio, Jack Dissidoro, and Eric Krupke. 388 00:30:13,415 --> 00:30:18,540 It was edited by Patricia Willans, with help from Michael Benoit. 389 00:30:18,930 --> 00:30:21,907 contains original music by Diane Wong. 390 00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:26,557 and music by Marion Lozano will read. Alicia Baitube, 391 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,220 and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. 392 00:30:30,690 --> 00:30:32,850 Our theme music is by Wonderly. 393 00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:35,780 Special thanks to Afim Shapiro. 394 00:30:38,260 --> 00:30:41,820 That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. 395 00:30:41,910 --> 00:30:43,430 See you on Sunday.