1
00:00:03,190 --> 00:00:07,140
He should have been removed from office
immediately when he threatened nuclear

2
00:00:07,223 --> 00:00:09,932
war, threatening the offensive
use of nuclear weapons,

3
00:00:10,015 --> 00:00:12,827
which is to say threatening
the destruction of humanity.

4
00:00:12,911 --> 00:00:15,930
I said to Trump, you know,
four days before the war started,

5
00:00:16,013 --> 00:00:19,807
if you do this, you know, the United
States will be kicked out of the Gulf.

6
00:00:19,891 --> 00:00:22,496
Your legacy will be destroyed
along with your party.

7
00:00:22,579 --> 00:00:25,185
I said this to Trump to his
face in the Oval Office,

8
00:00:25,268 --> 00:00:27,750
and he looked at me and said,
yes, you're right.

9
00:00:30,390 --> 00:00:33,630
way. So it doesn't matter.
That's exactly what he said.

10
00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:38,634
Hi, this is Steve Inskeep sharing a brand
new episode just released on our sister

11
00:00:38,717 --> 00:00:41,533
show Newsmakers.
In every episode of that show,

12
00:00:41,616 --> 00:00:46,283
we interview someone at the center
of this moment in the news or our culture.

13
00:00:46,366 --> 00:00:49,244
They talk about how things
look from the inside.

14
00:00:49,327 --> 00:00:52,575
For more interviews like
the one you're about to hear,

15
00:00:52,659 --> 00:00:55,290
make sure to follow
or subscribe on Spotify,

16
00:00:55,373 --> 00:01:00,040
YouTube or wherever you watch or listen.
You can also find us on the NPR app,

17
00:01:00,123 --> 00:01:00,956
of course.

18
00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:05,400
from NPR's Newsmakers.

19
00:01:07,900 --> 00:01:12,723
Tucker Carlson has commanded an audience
for decades as a cable TV pundit,

20
00:01:12,806 --> 00:01:15,773
as a Fox News star,
and then after his firing,

21
00:01:15,856 --> 00:01:20,811
as the head of an independent network
frequently broadcasting from this barn

22
00:01:20,895 --> 00:01:25,651
in Maine. In 2024, Carlson spoke
for President Trump's election. In 2026,

23
00:01:25,734 --> 00:01:29,695
he's turned against the president
over the Iran war and more.

24
00:01:29,779 --> 00:01:33,160
And that was the starting
point for our discussion.

25
00:01:34,110 --> 00:01:36,838
Tucker Carlson, thanks for welcoming
us here. This is amazing.

26
00:01:36,921 --> 00:01:39,513
I have a lot of questions.
Oh, my. I have a lot of answers.

27
00:01:39,596 --> 00:01:42,233
I want to talk about the economy.
I want to ask about faith.

28
00:01:42,316 --> 00:01:44,316
I want to ask about AI. I need to begin.

29
00:01:44,460 --> 00:01:47,337
with the news that you've made
in recent months, your break,

30
00:01:47,421 --> 00:01:49,771
if that's the right word,
with President Trump.

31
00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,827
I have a specific,
simple question about that.

32
00:01:52,910 --> 00:01:57,568
You have said that the president in
deciding to go to war with Iran was more

33
00:01:57,652 --> 00:02:01,437
a hostage than a decision maker,
a slave to foreign interests.

34
00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,700
And it was the single most foolish
thing a president has ever done.

35
00:02:06,150 --> 00:02:07,030
Given that...

36
00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,420
Should President Trump be impeached
for going to war with Iran? Well,

37
00:02:11,503 --> 00:02:15,660
let me just say, you know, it's it's
always a painful experience to hear

38
00:02:15,743 --> 00:02:19,546
your own quotes read back to you
because often they don't hold up.

39
00:02:19,629 --> 00:02:22,785
Many of mine haven't.
Many of mine haven't. Those have.

40
00:02:22,868 --> 00:02:25,965
That's every all three
of those observations are true.

41
00:02:26,048 --> 00:02:29,617
And I think they've been proved
true since I said them. Yeah.

42
00:02:29,700 --> 00:02:32,877
He was pushed by a foreign
country to do this.

43
00:02:32,961 --> 00:02:38,477
It is the most profoundly destructive
thing any any single decision a president

44
00:02:38,561 --> 00:02:44,077
has made in our history. I feel sorry
for him. I'm not angry at him personally.

45
00:02:44,161 --> 00:02:45,720
I don't think that he.

46
00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:52,105
had the latitude to make this decision
on his own. So, you know, I have pity.

47
00:02:52,188 --> 00:02:54,120
Should he be impeached? He,

48
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,279
I mean, he's not going to be he's not to
be removed for this because both parties

49
00:02:59,363 --> 00:03:01,280
agree with it.
And that's kind of the point.

50
00:03:01,363 --> 00:03:03,826
I think the Democratic
leadership probably is, you know,

51
00:03:03,909 --> 00:03:06,235
an elaborate critique of how
he's prosecuted the war.

52
00:03:06,319 --> 00:03:09,782
But Chuck Schumer was, of course, always
for a regime change war against Iran.

53
00:03:09,865 --> 00:03:12,015
So that is kind of the point.
Trump joined.

54
00:03:12,570 --> 00:03:14,836
the other side in the
unit party to do this.

55
00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,267
So he's not going to be punished for it.
They'll get him on corruption or whatever.

56
00:03:19,351 --> 00:03:22,791
That's a bit of an evasion, though,
respectfully, in saying, well,

57
00:03:22,874 --> 00:03:25,461
it's never going to happen.
Should he be punished?

58
00:03:25,544 --> 00:03:28,878
Should he be removed from office
if you believe, as you've said,

59
00:03:28,961 --> 00:03:31,150
that he effectively betrayed the country?

60
00:03:31,260 --> 00:03:32,990
Thank you. Thank you.

61
00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,258
He should be removed. He should have been
removed from office immediately when he

62
00:03:37,341 --> 00:03:41,062
threatened nuclear war, threatening
the offensive use of nuclear weapons,

63
00:03:41,146 --> 00:03:44,189
which is to say threatening
the destruction of humanity. OK,

64
00:03:44,272 --> 00:03:45,937
what about the war in Iran then?

65
00:03:46,020 --> 00:03:51,177
Thank you. So it's enough for me
to say he should be removed from office.

66
00:03:51,261 --> 00:03:55,717
He should have been removed from office by
his own cabinet secretaries the moment he

67
00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,933
threatened a nuclear attack. You're
talking now about the 25th Amendment where

68
00:04:00,016 --> 00:04:02,610
a majority of the cabinet.
That's correct. Yeah.

69
00:04:02,910 --> 00:04:05,753
He should have been bundled up
and taken out. That's a crime.

70
00:04:05,836 --> 00:04:09,542
There's no greater crime than that. You
think of all the people you know who go

71
00:04:09,626 --> 00:04:12,229
to jail for violating Farrah
or cheating on their taxes.

72
00:04:12,312 --> 00:04:15,312
Here you have a guy threatening
to eliminate the human race.

73
00:04:16,140 --> 00:04:20,582
And that's not considered a crime. It
tells you how deranged our moral scale has

74
00:04:20,666 --> 00:04:24,060
become. So he should be removed
from office for threatening.

75
00:04:24,780 --> 00:04:28,960
first use nuclear strike. Thomas Massey,
representative from Kentucky.

76
00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,056
As we're speaking, a few days ago,
I introduced a resolution to impeach

77
00:04:33,139 --> 00:04:36,860
the Secretary of Defense, or Secretary
of War, if you like, Pete Hegseth.

78
00:04:37,690 --> 00:04:40,145
The House seems to have adjourned
to get out of that for the moment.

79
00:04:40,229 --> 00:04:42,787
What do you make of that?
I mean, I – Again, we...

80
00:04:42,870 --> 00:04:47,201
were I disagree profoundly with
almost everything the secretary,

81
00:04:47,284 --> 00:04:51,680
and I'm going to call him the secretary of
defense because I don't acknowledge that

82
00:04:51,763 --> 00:04:54,300
a decent country would
have a secretary of war.

83
00:04:54,900 --> 00:04:58,929
The purpose of the military
is to defend the country. It's not to,

84
00:04:59,012 --> 00:05:03,913
you know, instigate wars of choice. So,
but I disagree with virtually everything

85
00:05:03,997 --> 00:05:08,649
the Secretary of Defense has said over
the past nine months. But once again,

86
00:05:08,732 --> 00:05:12,387
that's punishing a subordinate
for decisions made above him.

87
00:05:12,470 --> 00:05:15,751
And I think that the purpose
of leadership, of course,

88
00:05:15,835 --> 00:05:20,175
is to take, fundamentally, is to defend
the people you lead and to take

89
00:05:20,259 --> 00:05:23,000
responsibility for failures
when they occur.

90
00:05:24,900 --> 00:05:26,960
you

91
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,894
I want to come back to your
premise about the war in Iran,

92
00:05:33,977 --> 00:05:36,127
that Israel caused the president to

93
00:05:36,210 --> 00:05:41,010
To do this, if I may summarize. Not a
premise. It's an observation. Okay. Um...

94
00:05:41,490 --> 00:05:43,290
Is Israel still calling the shots?

95
00:05:43,830 --> 00:05:48,834
Shortly before this conversation,
the United States confirmed an arms sale

96
00:05:48,917 --> 00:05:53,165
to the Israelis, billions
of dollars worth of 2000 pound bombs.

97
00:05:53,248 --> 00:05:57,457
It's not an arms sale.
It's a gift of 40,000 2000 pound bombs.

98
00:05:57,540 --> 00:06:01,904
So the scale of that is hard
for the modern mind to comprehend.

99
00:06:01,988 --> 00:06:05,928
But that's six times
the destructive force of Little Boy,

100
00:06:06,012 --> 00:06:10,446
the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima
in August of 45. Six times.

101
00:06:10,530 --> 00:06:14,470
So it's kind of hard even
to understand how much that is.

102
00:06:14,554 --> 00:06:17,859
And the Israelis are not
buying this, of course.

103
00:06:17,942 --> 00:06:23,224
They were given the money appropriated
by Congress to the executive in order

104
00:06:23,308 --> 00:06:27,120
to purchase these.
So they are getting these for free.

105
00:06:27,510 --> 00:06:31,905
at a time when the U.S. military is so
short of munitions that we're constrained,

106
00:06:31,989 --> 00:06:35,389
completely constrained, because
we don't have enough munitions.

107
00:06:35,472 --> 00:06:37,766
So what does that tell you?
And by the way,

108
00:06:37,849 --> 00:06:42,024
the committees that approve this, which
would be the House and Senate Foreign

109
00:06:42,107 --> 00:06:45,452
Relations Committees,
the chairman and ranking member in both,

110
00:06:45,535 --> 00:06:49,327
so the four people making this decision
in the Congress are all four.

111
00:06:49,410 --> 00:06:55,210
recipients of huge amounts of Israeli
lobby money and the Republican chairman.

112
00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,017
Brian Mast of Florida served,
volunteered with the IDF,

113
00:06:58,100 --> 00:07:01,435
and then showed up in the House
of Representatives wearing an IDF uniform,

114
00:07:01,518 --> 00:07:04,768
a foreign military uniform.
That's the chairman of the committee.

115
00:07:04,950 --> 00:07:06,600
that signed off on this decision.

116
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:11,220
Where did this idea come from? It came
from the U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem, right?

117
00:07:11,310 --> 00:07:16,173
Who's the ambassador? Mike Huckabee,
completely an extremist and a committed

118
00:07:16,256 --> 00:07:19,557
Christian Zionist.
His deputy, who runs the embassy,

119
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,557
is the stepson of Mark Levin.
He's the stepson of Mark Levin.

120
00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,500
It's like you couldn't make this up.
None of this is an anti-Semitic.

121
00:07:27,660 --> 00:07:31,132
conspiracy theory.
There's nothing anti-Semitic about it.

122
00:07:31,216 --> 00:07:36,060
It is what you're seeing now revealed
is the control of what was supposed to be

123
00:07:36,144 --> 00:07:40,988
the most powerful country in the world
by a country of 9 million people with no

124
00:07:41,071 --> 00:07:44,419
resources. So it's a bewildering
thing to see out loud,

125
00:07:44,502 --> 00:07:48,723
and it is out in the open.
And there's an attempt to rewrite history,

126
00:07:48,806 --> 00:07:52,965
reality in real time and deny
that any of it's true, but it is true.

127
00:07:53,048 --> 00:07:55,980
Let me push back on a
couple of elements there.

128
00:07:57,660 --> 00:08:00,700
feeling that the parties
are on the same page. Yes.

129
00:08:00,783 --> 00:08:03,394
It seems to me that
regarding war with Iran,

130
00:08:03,478 --> 00:08:08,416
that is demonstrably not true. Obviously,
there are a lot of Democrats who support

131
00:08:08,499 --> 00:08:13,437
Israel and Israel's point of view. And yet
the last two Democratic presidents made

132
00:08:13,521 --> 00:08:18,398
a nuclear deal with Iran and then tried
to remake a nuclear deal with Iran rather

133
00:08:18,481 --> 00:08:21,337
than launching a regime
change war against Iran,

134
00:08:21,421 --> 00:08:24,360
which is a huge improvement
over what Trump did.

135
00:08:24,510 --> 00:08:27,354
I will say that. Okay.
As someone who opposed Obama,

136
00:08:27,438 --> 00:08:30,169
especially in his second
term, it took, I thought,

137
00:08:30,253 --> 00:08:33,885
courage and a huge amount of effort
to get that nuclear deal done,

138
00:08:33,968 --> 00:08:35,770
and he should get credit for it.

139
00:08:35,970 --> 00:08:40,890
And I would, and I'm giving it
to him. However, Um, Thank you.

140
00:08:41,370 --> 00:08:47,167
The last two administrations, Democratic
administrations, Biden and Obama,

141
00:08:47,251 --> 00:08:53,370
were committed to an anti-Iran policy,
which was expressed through sanctions.

142
00:08:54,850 --> 00:08:58,318
Very aggressive sanctions,
which didn't work in any sense.

143
00:08:58,401 --> 00:09:01,830
Except to get to the nuclear
deal ultimately, but go on.

144
00:09:02,430 --> 00:09:07,917
Yeah, I guess. But did it – I mean,
like, what did they achieve in the end,

145
00:09:08,001 --> 00:09:12,819
kind of? Like, I guess the point
is – Tenure agreement. Of course.

146
00:09:12,903 --> 00:09:16,830
But the orientation itself
is what got us to this war.

147
00:09:16,913 --> 00:09:19,810
And the orientation was this. Iran is –

148
00:09:20,430 --> 00:09:26,432
America's greatest enemy. Well, on the
basis of what are we saying that the whole

149
00:09:26,515 --> 00:09:29,370
the way we looked at it was, you know,

150
00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:32,690
was in reference to Iran's
relationship with Israel.

151
00:09:32,774 --> 00:09:35,324
Iran's hostile to Israel,
therefore it's our enemy.

152
00:09:35,550 --> 00:09:39,539
I just reject that. We should assess our
relationship with countries on the basis

153
00:09:39,622 --> 00:09:41,130
of their relationship with us.

154
00:09:41,610 --> 00:09:45,087
What is Iran? What if Iran is not
the enemy of the United States,

155
00:09:45,170 --> 00:09:49,688
which is a thing that the previous Supreme
Leader and the current one would say they

156
00:09:49,771 --> 00:09:53,796
are? What are they? Well, of course,
they're an enemy of the United States,

157
00:09:53,879 --> 00:09:56,070
but do they need to be? So what is Iran?

158
00:09:56,460 --> 00:10:00,647
Iran is a regional power. Why is Iran a
regional power? Not because as if it's...

159
00:10:00,730 --> 00:10:05,650
nuclear program or its drone or missile
arsenal, but because of its geography.

160
00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,663
Iran is the longest coastline along
the other side of the Persian Gulf. Yeah.

161
00:10:10,746 --> 00:10:14,375
And the longest coastline along
the now famous Strait of Hormuz.

162
00:10:14,458 --> 00:10:18,435
So Iran is a regional power.
It's always going to be a regional power.

163
00:10:18,518 --> 00:10:22,959
It's also the world's oldest civilization.
So you just have to deal with that.

164
00:10:23,042 --> 00:10:27,657
You can't the idea that you're going to
break up Iran and cause a permanent civil

165
00:10:27,740 --> 00:10:28,900
war there simply so.

166
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,406
Israel can have regional hegemony.
A, I don't think it's possible. B,

167
00:10:33,489 --> 00:10:37,152
I don't see how that serves
our interests. Clearly it doesn't.

168
00:10:37,235 --> 00:10:40,800
But I would say to your point
about the Democrats and Iran,

169
00:10:41,380 --> 00:10:43,480
and the Iran War, you're absolutely right.

170
00:10:43,870 --> 00:10:47,376
that... Previous presidents,
including Republican presidents,

171
00:10:47,459 --> 00:10:49,877
resisted pressure from Israel
to do what Trump did.

172
00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,064
So they get credit for that for sure.
But once the war broke out,

173
00:10:53,148 --> 00:10:56,154
the first thing I noticed
was the absence of anti-war protests.

174
00:10:56,237 --> 00:11:00,224
As someone who's been to an awful lot of
them as a lifelong resident of Washington,

175
00:11:00,307 --> 00:11:02,480
D.C., I've been to a lot
of anti-war protests,

176
00:11:02,563 --> 00:11:05,668
including immediately after we
rolled into Iraq in March of 2003,

177
00:11:05,751 --> 00:11:08,119
there were anti-war protests.
Six-figure protests,

178
00:11:08,203 --> 00:11:10,877
hundreds of thousands of people.
Sure. There's not one.

179
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,757
So right after this war began,
you had the no kings protest.

180
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,768
Yeah. And those were, you know,
anti-Trump or whatever. There was like,

181
00:11:17,851 --> 00:11:20,397
where do those protests
come from? Well, of course,

182
00:11:20,481 --> 00:11:24,760
they're organized by the Democratic Party
through its nonprofit proxies and donors.

183
00:11:25,270 --> 00:11:28,571
And they didn't choose to use those
protests to say anything really about

184
00:11:28,655 --> 00:11:30,843
the biggest thing that's
happened in my lifetime,

185
00:11:30,926 --> 00:11:33,671
which was the initiation of a
regime change war in Iran. Why?

186
00:11:33,755 --> 00:11:37,519
Because they're for it. That's why. Do you
think it's that they were more concerned

187
00:11:37,603 --> 00:11:40,579
about what they would describe
as the regime in the United States?

188
00:11:40,663 --> 00:11:42,587
Maybe they had other things on their mind.

189
00:11:42,670 --> 00:11:46,949
Well, but they're concerned about the
regime in the United States because they

190
00:11:47,032 --> 00:11:48,377
say it does crazy things.

191
00:11:48,460 --> 00:11:51,624
Well, the craziest thing it's ever done
is started a regime change war in Iran,

192
00:11:51,708 --> 00:11:53,158
but they didn't mention that.

193
00:11:53,980 --> 00:11:56,332
And they didn't mention it because
they're for it. And Chuck Schumer,

194
00:11:56,415 --> 00:11:58,037
who was the leader of the Senate.

195
00:11:58,120 --> 00:11:59,920
Democratic leader of the Senate.

196
00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:02,707
is talked about this for 30
years. Iran is the problem.

197
00:12:02,791 --> 00:12:05,887
Its leaders are terrorists.
We've got to do something about them.

198
00:12:05,970 --> 00:12:07,370
We need regime change there.

199
00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:13,697
We need to fund the opposition within
Iran to topple the government. I mean,

200
00:12:13,780 --> 00:12:15,500
it's of a piece with –

201
00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:18,615
Everything Marco Rubio believes. So
that's what I mean about the unit party.

202
00:12:18,698 --> 00:12:21,257
Of course, there are
differences between the parties.

203
00:12:21,340 --> 00:12:26,175
But on the questions that determine the
course of a nation that define history,

204
00:12:26,259 --> 00:12:29,787
which are economic policy,
what's your tax code look like,

205
00:12:29,870 --> 00:12:32,837
and your foreign policy,
who do you bomb and why,

206
00:12:32,921 --> 00:12:35,100
they're in almost strict alignment.

207
00:12:35,740 --> 00:12:39,936
So I have heard people say that usually
on the left-wing fringes for 30 years

208
00:12:40,019 --> 00:12:43,715
and always kind of dismiss them
as crazy, the Noam Chomsky critique.

209
00:12:43,799 --> 00:12:47,800
And there's a lot about Noam Chomsky
that's fake and I don't like, but –

210
00:12:47,890 --> 00:12:52,409
That critique is true, and I wasn't
able to see it because I was caught in

211
00:12:52,493 --> 00:12:53,550
the partisan lie.

212
00:12:54,220 --> 00:12:57,168
I was mesmerized by,
and I was part of, by the way,

213
00:12:57,251 --> 00:13:00,580
the machinery of this as a
cable news host for 29 years.

214
00:13:00,670 --> 00:13:02,410
I was part of

215
00:13:02,590 --> 00:13:09,018
This effectively a deception where
the parties disagree on an issue,

216
00:13:09,102 --> 00:13:12,017
trans rights, amnesty, amnesty.

217
00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:15,227
Which are, you know, they're real issues.
I'm not saying they have no meaning.

218
00:13:15,310 --> 00:13:17,203
You've talked about them
on camera and so forth.

219
00:13:17,286 --> 00:13:21,137
I've talked about them extensively. In
fact, I've talked about them way too much.

220
00:13:21,220 --> 00:13:25,720
And sort of missed the fact that,
I don't know, we still tax –

221
00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:28,260
Income at almost twice the rate of income.

222
00:13:28,690 --> 00:13:31,762
of investing at labor
at twice rate of capital.

223
00:13:31,845 --> 00:13:35,470
It's like the capital gains
tax versus the income tax.

224
00:13:36,430 --> 00:13:40,330
I mean, that's kind of the
biggest fact of our tax code.

225
00:13:41,230 --> 00:13:44,100
And I don't think I've ever
done a debate on that. Maybe one.

226
00:13:44,183 --> 00:13:46,375
I want to follow up
on something else you said.

227
00:13:46,458 --> 00:13:50,151
You said you're not being anti-Semitic
to criticize Israel in this way. Right.

228
00:13:50,234 --> 00:13:53,184
I want you to have an opportunity
to address this directly.

229
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:56,302
I think you understand.
I assume you understand.

230
00:13:56,385 --> 00:14:00,834
When you start talking about people
with dual loyalty and strange connections

231
00:14:00,917 --> 00:14:05,072
to Israel or also in the government
and a uniparty that is taking orders

232
00:14:05,155 --> 00:14:09,640
from outside. People who are
anti-Semitic are liable to hear...

233
00:14:09,820 --> 00:14:12,040
certain things in that.

234
00:14:12,220 --> 00:14:15,022
What do you make of that?
What do you make of the way that you...

235
00:14:15,105 --> 00:14:16,975
People who are anti-Semitic
are liable to...

236
00:14:17,059 --> 00:14:19,728
I don't really know anybody
who's anti-Semitic, for one thing.

237
00:14:19,811 --> 00:14:23,057
So I can't confirm that. You would
agree that there have been anti-Semites?

238
00:14:23,140 --> 00:14:25,640
Of course. Okay, go on,
go on. You know, people...

239
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:31,007
There's a lot of tribalism in this world.
True. And now more than ever. And I...

240
00:14:31,090 --> 00:14:36,610
And I detest it and I fear it
and worry about it a lot. Um, um,

241
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,390
But you're a thoughtful guy.
Do you ever wonder, wow,

242
00:14:39,473 --> 00:14:43,075
maybe that's me or maybe I'm having that
effect or giving that impression even if I

243
00:14:43,158 --> 00:14:43,992
don't mean it?

244
00:14:44,410 --> 00:14:49,515
I think that we haven't had this
conversation for 60 years because people

245
00:14:49,598 --> 00:14:55,201
are afraid of being called a bigot for
noticing something that has nothing to do

246
00:14:55,284 --> 00:14:56,350
with ethnicity.

247
00:14:58,250 --> 00:15:02,332
And I just refuse to participate in
that because the stakes are now too high.

248
00:15:02,415 --> 00:15:06,876
And so for decades, I, of course, noticed
the undue influence of Israel as expressed

249
00:15:06,959 --> 00:15:11,365
through its lobby in Washington, which I
was very familiar with since I lived there

250
00:15:11,449 --> 00:15:13,450
and knew people in the Israeli lobby.

251
00:15:14,410 --> 00:15:17,350
them for whatever it's
worth personally, but

252
00:15:17,650 --> 00:15:20,501
But I decided I'm not going to weigh in
on that because I have all kinds of other

253
00:15:20,584 --> 00:15:21,417
concerns.

254
00:15:23,860 --> 00:15:26,487
Of course, I'm not
anti-Semitic in any sense,

255
00:15:26,571 --> 00:15:30,584
but I don't want to be called
that and I don't want to upset people.

256
00:15:30,667 --> 00:15:34,559
And I sort of stuck with that up
until the push for war with Iran,

257
00:15:34,643 --> 00:15:39,040
at which point I thought this will
destroy the United States. This will –

258
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,578
results in the deaths
of millions of people.

259
00:15:41,661 --> 00:15:45,636
This is the worst thing I can imagine.
And so I don't really have a choice.

260
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,074
And by that point, I was in my mid fifties
and my children were grown and I didn't

261
00:15:50,157 --> 00:15:54,457
have a normal, I didn't have a job anymore
because I've been fired so many times.

262
00:15:54,540 --> 00:15:57,271
I worked for myself and I
thought I'm in this weird,

263
00:15:57,354 --> 00:16:01,384
almost unique position where there's
kind of no downside for me. I can take,

264
00:16:01,467 --> 00:16:04,660
I can take the lumps and I have.
So, but as to whether it's

265
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:14,120
of a secular foreign government.
I mean, it goes without saying that, no,

266
00:16:14,204 --> 00:16:18,520
in fact, that accusation is not
only baseless. It's crazy. Yeah.

267
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,770
And I almost don't want to dignify
it even by responding to it.

268
00:16:22,853 --> 00:16:28,162
But since you asked, let me just say that
the majority of American Jews when polled

269
00:16:28,245 --> 00:16:32,060
are not for Netanyahu.
So not that I need to appeal to that.

270
00:16:32,143 --> 00:16:36,477
I'm just going to appeal instead
to reason. But just factually true.

271
00:16:36,561 --> 00:16:38,120
And there's Netanyahu's.

272
00:16:38,980 --> 00:16:43,176
claim that which is specious
and totally dishonorable,

273
00:16:43,260 --> 00:16:47,209
is that when you criticize me,
you criticize global Jewry.

274
00:16:47,292 --> 00:16:51,887
You criticize all Jews. And it's
sort of not my job to defend Jews.

275
00:16:51,970 --> 00:16:56,755
All Jews as an Episcopalian.
I'm not even in. It's like not my fight.

276
00:16:56,839 --> 00:17:02,400
But I I feel somebody should stand up
and say that's an outrageous thing to say.

277
00:17:02,484 --> 00:17:07,551
Who gave Benjamin Netanyahu, who's
some sleazy day trader politician with

278
00:17:07,635 --> 00:17:12,491
a murderous history, whose government
has murdered to 20,000 children?

279
00:17:12,574 --> 00:17:17,090
What who gave that guy the right
to speak for an entire country?

280
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,649
Group, we could have a whole
discussion about this,

281
00:17:20,733 --> 00:17:23,817
but let me refocus for a moment
on the administration. Yeah.

282
00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:27,860
Do you include Vice President Vance
in your critique of the administration?

283
00:17:28,450 --> 00:17:32,414
Well, it depends what critique. You're
just talking about going to war. Well,

284
00:17:32,498 --> 00:17:35,253
I don't think the vice
president was for going to war.

285
00:17:35,336 --> 00:17:39,195
I think it's pretty obvious. I mean,
he'd spent his entire relatively short

286
00:17:39,279 --> 00:17:42,822
but well-publicized political career
arguing against a war like this.

287
00:17:42,906 --> 00:17:46,765
He was reported to be against, but
publicly he's done his job and supported

288
00:17:46,848 --> 00:17:48,973
the president. Yeah, I mean, I think the –

289
00:17:49,056 --> 00:17:52,547
let me just say point blank that I
not only know the vice president,

290
00:17:52,631 --> 00:17:54,808
but I've been pretty
good friends with him.

291
00:17:54,891 --> 00:17:58,150
I don't think I've ever been
friends with a politician before.

292
00:17:58,690 --> 00:18:01,804
Don't think I ever will be again,
but I am friends with J.D.

293
00:18:01,887 --> 00:18:05,054
Vance because I think he is a
genuinely decent person, smart,

294
00:18:05,138 --> 00:18:08,518
thoughtful, self-aware, loves his
family, has a wonderful family.

295
00:18:08,601 --> 00:18:12,834
So there's so much about him I like. I've
considered him a friend since before he

296
00:18:12,918 --> 00:18:17,833
went into politics. which puts me
in a little bit of an awkward position,

297
00:18:17,916 --> 00:18:22,709
but it also puts me in a position
of like some knowledge of what he thinks.

298
00:18:22,792 --> 00:18:27,455
But everyone who's paid attention
to him knows what he thought. And it's,

299
00:18:27,539 --> 00:18:30,511
you know, I don't almost
ever vote for anybody,

300
00:18:30,594 --> 00:18:33,130
but I voted for Donald Trump this time.

301
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,369
In part, heavily in part, because J.D.
Vance was his running mate.

302
00:18:37,452 --> 00:18:42,048
And J.D. Vance's views on foreign policy
are squarely in the center of where most

303
00:18:42,131 --> 00:18:42,965
Americans are.

304
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,998
Like, hey, let's not have another
insane, counterproductive, deadly,

305
00:18:48,081 --> 00:18:52,545
expensive Middle East war on behalf
of Israel. That was his position.

306
00:18:52,629 --> 00:18:55,660
And yet we did.
And so that happened without –

307
00:18:55,990 --> 00:19:00,238
His encouragement, he clearly sees his job
primarily as backstopping the president,

308
00:19:00,322 --> 00:19:03,839
supporting the president, displaying
public loyalty to the president.

309
00:19:03,923 --> 00:19:06,010
Most vice presidents have felt that way.

310
00:19:07,900 --> 00:19:10,697
But, you know, so I grieve
for the position that he's in.

311
00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:13,880
And I say that with deep affection
for him, which I still have.

312
00:19:13,963 --> 00:19:15,580
Have you urged him to speak out?

313
00:19:15,940 --> 00:19:21,420
I, you know, my friendship
with J.D. Vance has been used

314
00:19:21,610 --> 00:19:25,967
It's really since the moment
he was chosen to undermine him.

315
00:19:26,050 --> 00:19:30,185
This is an intro Republican Party struggle
that I assume most NPR viewers are not

316
00:19:30,268 --> 00:19:31,830
that familiar with, listeners.

317
00:19:33,230 --> 00:19:36,444
We could have a discussion about
the NPR audience, but please. No, no, no,

318
00:19:36,527 --> 00:19:39,830
I'm not attacking the NPR audience.
I'm just saying in case you don't follow

319
00:19:39,913 --> 00:19:43,613
Republican politics closely, you may
not know that the battle is between –

320
00:19:43,780 --> 00:19:48,294
The neoconservatives who, you know, define
the Bush administration, for example,

321
00:19:48,378 --> 00:19:52,662
got us into the Iraq war and people
who learned something from the Iraq war,

322
00:19:52,746 --> 00:19:57,203
often called the realists. And G.D. Vance
was was very much on the latter side,

323
00:19:57,286 --> 00:19:59,240
on the realist side. And that was.

324
00:19:59,380 --> 00:20:02,580
overwhelmingly important to me
that the Republican Party change.

325
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:08,672
from being a tool of a foreign country
to being an instrument of uplift for

326
00:20:08,755 --> 00:20:10,060
the United States.

327
00:20:11,570 --> 00:20:16,910
So it didn't happen. OK.
And I'm nothing has ever made me sadder.

328
00:20:19,070 --> 00:20:22,053
And it brings me no pleasure
to be vindicated in my predictions.

329
00:20:22,137 --> 00:20:26,137
And I said to Trump, you know, four days
before the war started, if you do this,

330
00:20:26,510 --> 00:20:28,797
The United States will
be kicked out of the Gulf.

331
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,191
The American empire
will begin to collapse.

332
00:20:32,275 --> 00:20:36,380
Your legacy will be destroyed
along with your party.

333
00:20:36,740 --> 00:20:39,888
And a lot of people are going to die.
But getting back to that question,

334
00:20:39,972 --> 00:20:42,922
have you urged the vice president
to speak out in some way?

335
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,367
I mean, I'm not going to...

336
00:20:47,450 --> 00:20:54,148
No one is listening to me, obviously. So I
would say I I would urge not simply that.

337
00:20:54,232 --> 00:20:59,558
Well, let me do it now. I would
urge not simply the vice president,

338
00:20:59,641 --> 00:21:06,259
but every member of the cabinet, everyone
who works for the president to march into

339
00:21:06,342 --> 00:21:07,230
his office.

340
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:14,430
and demand that he renounce his statements
calling for the use or threatening the use

341
00:21:14,686 --> 00:21:17,930
of nuclear weapons. And if he doesn't,

342
00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:21,250
Doesn't do that. They should quit.
That's what I think.

343
00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:24,059
If you're concerned
about foreign influence,

344
00:21:24,142 --> 00:21:29,389
which is what we're talking about, foreign
government influencing the United States,

345
00:21:29,472 --> 00:21:34,148
are you also concerned about foreign
influence on the United States through

346
00:21:34,232 --> 00:21:38,547
the president's business dealings
and his family's business dealings?

347
00:21:38,630 --> 00:21:42,130
Well, there's a lot of foreign money
sloshing around, that's for sure.

348
00:21:42,830 --> 00:21:49,508
Um, what's the effect? I mean, if the,
if Russian businessmen could pay the Trump

349
00:21:49,592 --> 00:21:52,797
family, um, And push Trump.

350
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,020
through those payments to end
the war in Ukraine, I would be for it.

351
00:21:58,850 --> 00:22:02,397
The main problem, as I sort
of explained a moment ago,

352
00:22:02,481 --> 00:22:06,902
with Israeli influence over the U.S.
government is that it leads to

353
00:22:06,985 --> 00:22:08,817
the destruction of – Thank you.

354
00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:10,560
the US and American interests.

355
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,957
So we have an overriding interest
in seeing a negotiated settlement to these

356
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:18,860
two wars. And if we don't,

357
00:22:19,010 --> 00:22:22,250
We will be destroyed. It's that simple.
So my orientation is always,

358
00:22:22,334 --> 00:22:24,792
you know, because I live
here and my kids live here.

359
00:22:24,875 --> 00:22:28,165
What's good for the United States?
We need to get the war in Ukraine.

360
00:22:28,248 --> 00:22:29,081
We need to stop.

361
00:22:29,390 --> 00:22:32,946
prosecuting a war against Russia,
which is what we're doing right now.

362
00:22:33,029 --> 00:22:36,949
But you focus on Israel. The president
and his family have business relations

363
00:22:37,032 --> 00:22:41,004
with people throughout the Middle East
in other countries affected by this war

364
00:22:41,088 --> 00:22:44,124
through the cryptocurrency enterprises.
Oh, extensive. Well,

365
00:22:44,207 --> 00:22:48,470
the Qataris gave Trump a plane. There you
go. Of course. And what did it get them?

366
00:22:48,890 --> 00:22:51,511
Got them nothing. The United
States did not defend Qatar.

367
00:22:51,594 --> 00:22:54,794
The United States moved THAAD
batteries from the Gulf to Israel.

368
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,270
And of course, Israel has
given us nothing, only taken.

369
00:22:58,670 --> 00:23:04,390
$350 billion total since 1951. So,

370
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,073
I mean, it was a bad bet.
You know, of course,

371
00:23:08,156 --> 00:23:11,971
if your point is it's corrupt
to take foreign money. Yeah, I agree.

372
00:23:12,054 --> 00:23:15,461
I've never taken a dollar
from any foreign government. Also,

373
00:23:15,545 --> 00:23:18,894
my question is whether that would
be a source of influence.

374
00:23:18,977 --> 00:23:23,723
They didn't get – well, it wasn't a source
of influence because when Iranian drones

375
00:23:23,806 --> 00:23:27,504
and missiles poured into the Gulf,
into Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Riyadh,

376
00:23:27,588 --> 00:23:31,020
American bases, all the way
in Jordan and then into Qatar –

377
00:23:31,250 --> 00:23:35,127
The United States didn't do anything
about it. In fact, last week,

378
00:23:35,210 --> 00:23:39,447
the Saudis were routed in Yemen,
thereby giving the Houthis control over

379
00:23:39,530 --> 00:23:42,627
the entrance to the Red Sea.
And Mohammed bin Salman,

380
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:47,127
the crown prince of Saudi, apparently
called Trump twice and said, help us.

381
00:23:47,210 --> 00:23:49,767
And he didn't.
So what did their investment?

382
00:23:49,850 --> 00:23:53,810
What are the billions they gave
Jared Kushner get them in the end?

383
00:23:54,170 --> 00:23:58,558
A middle finger. But let me ask one
counter question about the president's

384
00:23:58,641 --> 00:24:03,572
motives. Your idea is he was told to go to
war by someone and did it almost against

385
00:24:03,655 --> 00:24:06,532
his will. I'm thinking
it's called Occam's razor.

386
00:24:06,616 --> 00:24:11,570
The idea that the most likely explanation
for something is a simplest. Yeah. Yeah.

387
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:15,423
Would a simpler explanation be
the president has no idea about foreign

388
00:24:15,506 --> 00:24:18,350
affairs, doesn't listen
to people and made a mistake?

389
00:24:18,590 --> 00:24:21,886
Well, that's not likely in his
case because it's not true.

390
00:24:21,969 --> 00:24:24,974
And I'm not guessing about this.
I was there. I mean,

391
00:24:25,057 --> 00:24:28,470
I spoke to Trump at least 10
times in the month of February,

392
00:24:28,553 --> 00:24:32,548
probably more in the month of January.
I visited almost every single –

393
00:24:32,631 --> 00:24:37,093
except for Iran. I visited every country
now involved in this war in the month

394
00:24:37,176 --> 00:24:38,050
before the war.

395
00:24:48,590 --> 00:24:51,884
And of course, I heard from people
in the meeting why he was there.

396
00:24:51,968 --> 00:24:54,304
He was there to push
the war we're currently in.

397
00:24:54,387 --> 00:24:58,286
So I knew that Trump was under immense
pressure. And therefore, beginning then,

398
00:24:58,370 --> 00:25:01,587
I talked to him about it.
you know, for a full year.

399
00:25:01,670 --> 00:25:06,950
And he was not only aware
of the risks, he understood them.

400
00:25:08,420 --> 00:25:11,126
And he understood them
because they're so obvious,

401
00:25:11,210 --> 00:25:14,865
but they also are exactly the kind
of thing that Trump understands.

402
00:25:14,948 --> 00:25:17,180
Commodities prices, for example. Mm-hmm.

403
00:25:17,540 --> 00:25:19,365
which don't tell the whole
story about anything,

404
00:25:19,448 --> 00:25:21,147
but they are the basis really of...

405
00:25:21,230 --> 00:25:23,130
Any economy, the price of commodities.

406
00:25:24,050 --> 00:25:28,039
And Trump follows them closely.
And the commodity he follows most closely,

407
00:25:28,122 --> 00:25:32,331
of course, is energy, is oil and gas.
And he's really interested in the topic.

408
00:25:32,414 --> 00:25:35,907
He talks about it constantly.
And he understood that this entire,

409
00:25:35,991 --> 00:25:40,309
the pivotal oil and gas region in the
world could be shut down very quickly once

410
00:25:40,393 --> 00:25:43,886
this war began. He understood that.
We talked about it at length,

411
00:25:43,969 --> 00:25:45,510
and he didn't want to do it.

412
00:25:45,770 --> 00:25:51,438
He also talked about, beginning in 2003,
the foolishness of fighting a war across

413
00:25:51,521 --> 00:25:55,911
the world whose aims are unclear.
In other words, the Iraq War,

414
00:25:55,994 --> 00:25:59,970
which he was offended by instantly,
to his great credit.

415
00:26:00,650 --> 00:26:03,387
He knew that that's
the destruction of a president.

416
00:26:03,470 --> 00:26:07,770
I mean, he once said to me, when George W.
Bush took office, he had all these plans.

417
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,986
Among them, reforming Social Security,
charitable choice. I mean,

418
00:26:11,069 --> 00:26:12,919
you sort of go back to his inaugural.

419
00:26:13,820 --> 00:26:18,141
A war – a land war with Iraq was not
on the list, and yet, of course,

420
00:26:18,224 --> 00:26:23,502
it defined his presidency and will for all
time and destroyed his presidency and him

421
00:26:23,586 --> 00:26:25,240
as a man. Trump.

422
00:26:25,970 --> 00:26:27,290
meditated on that.

423
00:26:28,250 --> 00:26:32,804
For 20 years. And so the idea that Trump
didn't know the risks, and once again,

424
00:26:32,887 --> 00:26:35,068
I'm in an unusual position
because I talked to Trump.

425
00:26:35,151 --> 00:26:38,217
But you've quoted him as waving off
the risk by saying it'll all be fine.

426
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:41,030
Which could you want to know what he said?
Go tell you exactly what he said.

427
00:26:41,113 --> 00:26:43,647
I haven't said this, but I'm
just going to tell you. Sure.

428
00:26:43,730 --> 00:26:44,790
And this is a fact.

429
00:26:45,830 --> 00:26:48,271
And I could look at my calendar,
but it was in –

430
00:26:48,354 --> 00:26:51,846
I had flown back from Tel Aviv,
from Ben-Gurion Airport after seeing

431
00:26:51,929 --> 00:26:55,610
the ambassador, and two days later
I was in the Oval with Trump alone.

432
00:26:56,660 --> 00:26:59,713
And he was annoyed that I had given
Huckabee a hard time in this whole

433
00:26:59,796 --> 00:27:02,267
conversation about Huckabee.
And I said, here, you're US.

434
00:27:02,350 --> 00:27:04,497
As the son of an ambassador,
I know what the job is.

435
00:27:04,580 --> 00:27:05,640
entails,

436
00:27:06,050 --> 00:27:10,605
And your ambassador, your representative
to this nation just called for rearranging

437
00:27:10,688 --> 00:27:14,293
the Middle East and allowing Israel
to take parts of Saudi Arabia,

438
00:27:14,377 --> 00:27:17,199
Jordan and Syria like
this is a diplomatic incident.

439
00:27:17,283 --> 00:27:21,530
And so we had this whole conversation
about this. But then I said this war –

440
00:27:21,710 --> 00:27:26,028
is not about Iran's nuclear program,
which you told me in the world that you

441
00:27:26,112 --> 00:27:28,740
eliminated back in –
Last summer in June. Yeah.

442
00:27:29,660 --> 00:27:31,077
This war...

443
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,878
is being pushed by Israel with three aims.
One, its own regional hegemony,

444
00:27:35,961 --> 00:27:36,795
take Israel.

445
00:27:37,580 --> 00:27:42,178
Iran off the map. They don't have freedom
of movement as long as Iran is a regional

446
00:27:42,262 --> 00:27:43,095
power.

447
00:27:43,490 --> 00:27:44,570
Two...

448
00:27:45,380 --> 00:27:48,137
Diminishing the power of the GCC,
the six Gulf states,

449
00:27:48,221 --> 00:27:51,925
which are a rival to Israel and are
becoming this kind of Switzerland in

450
00:27:52,008 --> 00:27:55,292
the Middle East. And that's bad
for Israeli interest. And three,

451
00:27:55,375 --> 00:27:59,462
getting the U.S. out. of the Middle East
because we constrain their ambitions,

452
00:27:59,545 --> 00:28:01,752
getting our bases out,
destroying our bases.

453
00:28:01,835 --> 00:28:04,146
Israel wants our bases
out of the Middle East.

454
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:08,290
I said this to Trump to his face in the
Oval Office days before the war began.

455
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:14,780
And he looked at me and said, yes, you're
right. But in the end, we all die anyway.

456
00:28:15,380 --> 00:28:20,707
So it doesn't matter. That's exactly what
he said. In the end, we all die anyway.

457
00:28:20,790 --> 00:28:22,580
And I said to him, shocked,

458
00:28:23,060 --> 00:28:26,780
But what about our kids and our
grandkids and like our country?

459
00:28:27,380 --> 00:28:28,213
And he goes, ah.

460
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:34,130
What does that mean? I don't know.
That's a verbatim exchange.

461
00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:36,890
And I said, And I'm...

462
00:28:37,220 --> 00:28:41,319
And it was God watches I said that.
Okay. And I thought it was true then,

463
00:28:41,403 --> 00:28:43,580
and I think it's been proven true now.

464
00:28:44,030 --> 00:28:47,265
The goal was to get the U.S.
out, to diminish the GCC,

465
00:28:47,349 --> 00:28:52,305
and obviously to take Iran off the map and
sink it into permanent internal strife,

466
00:28:52,388 --> 00:28:55,890
into civil war. sectarian strife.

467
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,879
And he said it doesn't matter because
in the end we're all dead anyway.

468
00:28:59,963 --> 00:29:04,177
And I was shocked by that because it's
nihilism and that's the last thing any

469
00:29:04,260 --> 00:29:08,000
leader should display or any person
should display. It does matter.

470
00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:11,704
Who lives or dies does matter.
The future does matter. I believe it.

471
00:29:11,787 --> 00:29:15,756
I have four children. You believe him
to have agreed with your idea that Israel

472
00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:19,448
was pushing against American interests
specifically. Here's what I said,

473
00:29:19,532 --> 00:29:20,660
and this is the truth.

474
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,777
We don't consider anything in foreign
affairs ever from the perspective of other

475
00:29:25,861 --> 00:29:29,483
nations because we have been in this
position for so long that it doesn't

476
00:29:29,566 --> 00:29:32,376
matter. We're exceptional
and like people do what we say.

477
00:29:32,459 --> 00:29:35,117
But in order to understand
why people do what they do,

478
00:29:35,201 --> 00:29:37,807
you do have to look at things
from their perspective.

479
00:29:37,891 --> 00:29:41,259
So I was taking what I think is a
charitable position toward Israel.

480
00:29:41,342 --> 00:29:44,965
Actually, Israel has nuclear weapons.
Israel is a legitimate global power

481
00:29:45,048 --> 00:29:45,881
because of that.

482
00:29:46,820 --> 00:29:50,480
And so from Israel's perspective,
Israel wants to control its region.

483
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,674
Why wouldn't they? We've got the Monroe
Doctrine because we want to control ours.

484
00:29:54,757 --> 00:29:57,407
We had the Cuban Missile
Crisis for the same reason –

485
00:29:57,650 --> 00:29:59,917
Obviously, China is inflamed.

486
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,317
by American troops in Japan
for the same reason. Same with Taiwan.

487
00:30:03,401 --> 00:30:06,924
China wants control of the South
China Sea, wants control of the East.

488
00:30:07,007 --> 00:30:09,120
Why shouldn't it have that? Russia was...

489
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,695
provoked into war over
Ukraine for the same reason.

490
00:30:11,779 --> 00:30:14,284
Russia wants to control
Belarus for the same reason.

491
00:30:14,367 --> 00:30:18,017
Control is not the same as enslaved,
but you want control over your region.

492
00:30:18,100 --> 00:30:20,350
You don't want your enemies
at your doorstep.

493
00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:24,240
Every great power feels this way
and always has and always will.

494
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:28,930
This is what I said to Trump. And so
from Israel's perspective, what are –

495
00:30:29,070 --> 00:30:33,026
the barriers to regional control,
full regional control, like elbow room.

496
00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:37,011
We want to, you know, I don't get
hassled over southern Lebanon or Gaza.

497
00:30:37,094 --> 00:30:39,750
Who's hassling us? Well,
the GCC is hassling us.

498
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:42,750
Iran is hassling us and the
United States is hassling us.

499
00:30:43,170 --> 00:30:46,165
And I didn't present it as,
you know, Israel wants to kill people.

500
00:30:46,248 --> 00:30:48,450
I was just like, Israel
is a nuclear armed power.

501
00:30:48,533 --> 00:30:51,761
So of course they want control over
the Middle East. Why wouldn't they?

502
00:30:51,844 --> 00:30:53,347
And what's standing in the way?

503
00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:56,030
That's exactly what I said.
And I think that's true.

504
00:30:56,370 --> 00:31:00,150
And I just want the record
to reflect that I am –

505
00:31:00,270 --> 00:31:04,925
Giving Israel grace in this Israel
is the same motives that any power does,

506
00:31:05,009 --> 00:31:05,842
including us.

507
00:31:07,290 --> 00:31:10,731
Has your concern about the president
reached the point where you would advocate

508
00:31:10,815 --> 00:31:14,015
for people in this year's elections,
which are pretty important?

509
00:31:14,610 --> 00:31:15,710
to vote for Democrats.

510
00:31:16,110 --> 00:31:19,126
Who say they want to put a check
on the president. I mean, you know,

511
00:31:19,209 --> 00:31:21,909
you would like – I don't
want anyone to vote for this.

512
00:31:23,370 --> 00:31:27,879
You know, you have like Fox News
politics and unhappy rich girl politics.

513
00:31:27,962 --> 00:31:32,345
Those are your options. You know,
you've got one party that's like, oh,

514
00:31:32,428 --> 00:31:35,364
we need to ban Sharia
law and kill more Muslims.

515
00:31:35,448 --> 00:31:40,082
And you've got another party that's
just like the politics of Jackson Hole.

516
00:31:40,166 --> 00:31:44,234
You know what I mean? It's like
unhappy inherited money rich girl.

517
00:31:44,317 --> 00:31:48,345
Trans people. Ice is bad. Like,
how about we get an adult party here?

518
00:31:48,429 --> 00:31:51,547
When you have talked recently
about finding some third way.

519
00:31:51,630 --> 00:31:53,950
Is that a wish or a plan?

520
00:31:55,790 --> 00:31:59,751
Well, I don't think I could organize
your daughter's birthday party.

521
00:31:59,834 --> 00:32:02,902
I mean I'm just lacking
the skills required to mount.

522
00:32:02,986 --> 00:32:07,482
She prefers a small one. I think you can.
If it's the three of us at the Palm

523
00:32:07,565 --> 00:32:11,490
for dinner, I can do it. Got it,
got it. But anything beyond that.

524
00:32:11,790 --> 00:32:15,565
Out of my capacity.
I don't have the skills for that.

525
00:32:15,648 --> 00:32:20,887
My skills are rhetorical, I think.
My self-assessment is I think I can –

526
00:32:20,970 --> 00:32:24,510
understand big picture trends
and I think I can explain them

527
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,071
in a way that's understandable.
That's kind of it.

528
00:32:28,154 --> 00:32:31,838
So I wouldn't even attempt
to organize anything ever.

529
00:32:31,921 --> 00:32:36,671
What I can do is what I do do,
which is try to identify the problem,

530
00:32:36,754 --> 00:32:41,007
speak the truth out loud.
That's the beginning of all change,

531
00:32:41,090 --> 00:32:46,195
positive change. And the core problem
is that no matter who you vote for,

532
00:32:46,278 --> 00:32:47,700
you get John McCain.

533
00:32:48,030 --> 00:32:53,017
And most Americans don't want John McCain.
Nothing. It's John McCain personally,

534
00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:58,151
whom I knew very well and liked, but his
views are totally out of the mainstream,

535
00:32:58,234 --> 00:33:03,094
completely out of the mainstream. So we
just need a leadership that represents

536
00:33:03,177 --> 00:33:06,790
the majority of the population.
It's kind of that simple.

537
00:33:06,930 --> 00:33:09,920
in its priorities.
You got to vote this fall?

538
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,761
No. As I said, I almost never vote
just because of the weirdness of my job,

539
00:33:14,844 --> 00:33:17,536
not because I'm against
the democratic system.

540
00:33:17,619 --> 00:33:21,480
It's our only hope because after
that comes violence, of course.

541
00:33:21,870 --> 00:33:25,153
Your neighbors here in Maine have an
opportunity to decide control of the U.S.

542
00:33:25,237 --> 00:33:27,355
Senate. They've got a Senate
race that means a lot.

543
00:33:27,438 --> 00:33:30,117
What would you tell them to do
or think about or consider? Well,

544
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,250
they have less of a choice than they did.

545
00:33:32,490 --> 00:33:35,429
They had a choice between Susan
Collins and Graham Plattner.

546
00:33:35,513 --> 00:33:37,830
I'm not really on either
side, actually. Yeah.

547
00:33:38,100 --> 00:33:42,053
I know them both and kind of like
them both. I'll just say that,

548
00:33:42,136 --> 00:33:46,740
though I think it's illegal to like
Graham Platner, but I do as a person.

549
00:33:46,830 --> 00:33:50,593
But Graham Plattner was slightly different
from your conventional democratic offering

550
00:33:50,677 --> 00:33:54,037
in that his foreign policy views,
which he earned, were a lot of money.

551
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,075
by serving multiple tours
in Iraq and almost getting killed.

552
00:33:57,158 --> 00:34:01,024
He has a right to those views. His views
were out of the democratic mainstream

553
00:34:01,108 --> 00:34:04,500
and he was destroyed by the democratic
party in a fake sex scandal.

554
00:34:04,890 --> 00:34:07,720
So Graham Plattner should still be
the Democratic nominee. Of course.

555
00:34:07,803 --> 00:34:10,537
Graham Plattner was – by the way,
Graham Plattner was the choice –

556
00:34:10,620 --> 00:34:13,170
of voters. Remember them? In Maine.

557
00:34:13,410 --> 00:34:14,690
He won. He won.

558
00:34:15,390 --> 00:34:17,850
So, yeah, he was an overwhelming choice.

559
00:34:18,510 --> 00:34:22,154
But of course, they don't get to vote
for him in the fall because the Democratic

560
00:34:22,237 --> 00:34:24,344
Party, including
the Democratic Party of Maine,

561
00:34:24,427 --> 00:34:26,887
which is run by people who
weren't even from Maine –

562
00:34:26,970 --> 00:34:29,904
Rich girls, not from Maine.
Literally, rich girls, not from Maine.

563
00:34:29,987 --> 00:34:32,637
I hope everyone's offended
by that because it's true.

564
00:34:33,630 --> 00:34:37,730
Yeah, they took them out. It took him
out in a fake sex scandal. So my view,

565
00:34:37,814 --> 00:34:41,396
I'm not here to endorse Graham Plattner.
I'm not endorsing Graham Plattner.

566
00:34:41,479 --> 00:34:44,328
I'm not voting in, you know,
I'm not voting at all. However,

567
00:34:44,411 --> 00:34:47,561
I'm endorsing the idea that voters
ought to have a real choice.

568
00:34:48,180 --> 00:34:50,235
Not between two species
of the same flavor,

569
00:34:50,319 --> 00:34:52,623
but between flavors
that they choose themselves.

570
00:34:52,706 --> 00:34:56,104
Do you not care at all who controls
the Senate of the House next year?

571
00:34:56,188 --> 00:35:00,232
Of course I do. I just think there's less
of a difference than I thought there was.

572
00:35:00,316 --> 00:35:03,316
And for me, as someone who
is involved in partisan politics,

573
00:35:03,450 --> 00:35:07,163
arguing for 29 years, I can promise
you it's a bewildering realization,

574
00:35:07,246 --> 00:35:11,470
one I did not want to have, because what
does it say about how I spent my life?

575
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:14,469
What does it say about how
you spent your life? Well,

576
00:35:14,553 --> 00:35:17,257
a lot of it was wasted because
I was having fake debates.

577
00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:21,236
And I'm not exactly sure why I didn't
see that or allow myself to see it,

578
00:35:21,319 --> 00:35:23,500
maybe because I was at the center of it.

579
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:26,782
There's a famous quote,
which I'm going to mangle,

580
00:35:26,866 --> 00:35:28,756
so I'm not going to attempt it.
But basically,

581
00:35:28,839 --> 00:35:31,939
the idea is if you're paid not
to notice something, you don't.

582
00:35:32,190 --> 00:35:34,267
And I think that may have happened to me.

583
00:35:34,350 --> 00:35:38,328
And I'm ashamed to say that. I don't
actually know why I couldn't see some

584
00:35:38,411 --> 00:35:39,244
of this.

585
00:35:39,780 --> 00:35:42,460
But I couldn't, and...

586
00:35:42,690 --> 00:35:46,659
Now I can, and I'm shocked by it.
I'm absolutely shocked by it.

587
00:35:46,743 --> 00:35:51,291
Let me ask about another aspect
of this presidency that you've commented

588
00:35:51,375 --> 00:35:55,117
on recently. There's a Vanity
Fair article that quotes you.

589
00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:00,470
describing a meeting with the president
in which the Epstein files came up. Yeah.

590
00:36:00,553 --> 00:36:05,228
And you got from the president
an explanation of why he was so reluctant

591
00:36:05,311 --> 00:36:09,259
to release them. I remember
the conversation very, very well.

592
00:36:09,343 --> 00:36:13,885
So I knew a million people in that
world because of my age and my job.

593
00:36:13,969 --> 00:36:17,256
I knew a million people
who had eaten with Epstein.

594
00:36:17,339 --> 00:36:22,560
I knew people who knew Epstein very well.
I knew people who worked for Epstein.

595
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,010
world famous criminal
slash intel operative.

596
00:36:28,093 --> 00:36:32,217
He was also someone who circulated
in the world that I lived in.

597
00:36:32,301 --> 00:36:37,017
I never met Epstein, thank God,
but I knew a million people who knew him.

598
00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:41,685
So I knew a lot about the story and I
thought it was really interesting

599
00:36:41,768 --> 00:36:44,270
and dark. Thank you. So when it

600
00:36:44,970 --> 00:36:48,919
When this all came to a head last
summer, I think it was in July,

601
00:36:49,002 --> 00:36:53,633
and it became clear that Trump didn't
want to release the files that the DOJ

602
00:36:53,717 --> 00:36:55,950
was holding, I said to Trump, dude –

603
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:59,815
You know, what are you doing?
I don't think that this implicates you.

604
00:36:59,898 --> 00:37:03,697
I have never thought. And I don't think
to this day that there's some hidden sex

605
00:37:03,780 --> 00:37:06,560
crime that Trump committed.
For all my criticisms of Trump,

606
00:37:06,643 --> 00:37:10,199
I don't think he molested girls on Epstein
Island. I just don't think that.

607
00:37:10,282 --> 00:37:13,741
I mean, my view will change if evidence
emerges, but I didn't think that.

608
00:37:13,824 --> 00:37:17,768
I don't I didn't think it. I don't think
there's a deep secret in the Epstein files

609
00:37:17,852 --> 00:37:21,311
that we don't yet know. I do think
President Trump, I mean, specifically.

610
00:37:21,394 --> 00:37:22,544
No, go on. You tell me.

611
00:37:26,550 --> 00:37:28,496
sex related. I didn't think
that then. So I said, what,

612
00:37:28,579 --> 00:37:31,477
why don't you just release all
the fouls? You said you would.

613
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,087
And I don't think it's going to hurt you.

614
00:37:34,170 --> 00:37:40,008
Yes. And he said, oh, this is all a plot
to discredit me. It's like Russiagate,

615
00:37:40,091 --> 00:37:44,570
which was a plot to discredit
him and totally absurd, actually.

616
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,302
And I often said that on Fox and I
mean it. And it turned out to be true.

617
00:37:49,385 --> 00:37:52,199
It was absurd. So he said, well,
it's like that. And I said, no,

618
00:37:52,283 --> 00:37:53,583
it's not like that at all.

619
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,788
Like, you just release it.
Like, why do you care?

620
00:37:57,872 --> 00:38:02,440
And he was upset about it and,
like, paranoid about it. And, um...

621
00:38:02,610 --> 00:38:06,175
And of course, we saw what happened next,
which is he wound up taking credit

622
00:38:06,258 --> 00:38:08,458
for Epstein's crimes.
Why would you do that?

623
00:38:09,540 --> 00:38:14,645
Being blamed for Epstein's crimes. So he
was withholding the evidence because he

624
00:38:14,728 --> 00:38:19,225
thought it would be Used against him
politically. He thought the whole – look,

625
00:38:19,308 --> 00:38:23,306
I don't know what he actually thought.
I'll just tell you what he told me.

626
00:38:23,389 --> 00:38:27,441
He said, yes. Yes. He said to me,
the whole conversation will be twisted by

627
00:38:27,525 --> 00:38:31,688
the media to implicate me in what Epstein
did. I got nothing to do with this.

628
00:38:31,771 --> 00:38:35,879
I broke off with my friendship with him
many years ago after he hit on girls

629
00:38:35,962 --> 00:38:39,739
at the spa at Mar-a-Lago. That's
what he told me. The guy was a creep.

630
00:38:39,822 --> 00:38:42,910
I didn't like him. And I've
got nothing to do with this.

631
00:38:46,110 --> 00:38:48,410
to implicate me in Epstein
because I knew him.

632
00:38:56,730 --> 00:39:00,796
I want to move on to another question,
another aspect of the world,

633
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,070
and in this case, the president,
at least at the beginning. You said,

634
00:39:05,153 --> 00:39:06,830
I never believed... Trump.

635
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:08,700
was a Christian.

636
00:39:09,450 --> 00:39:12,615
He has in fact said, quote, I am
a Christian. Why do you think he's not?

637
00:39:12,699 --> 00:39:16,225
I think he said I'm not a Christian. He
also said I'm not going to heaven twice.

638
00:39:16,308 --> 00:39:19,058
I want to ask about that, too.
I don't know the answer.

639
00:39:20,790 --> 00:39:24,350
You know, I... Thank you. Thank you.

640
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:30,825
I don't ever want to make judgments
about other people's religious faith.

641
00:39:30,908 --> 00:39:36,674
I respect religious faith, all faiths.
Through the course of my life,

642
00:39:36,757 --> 00:39:39,300
reflexively defended religion.

643
00:39:39,810 --> 00:39:44,131
faithful Muslims, Orthodox Jews,
faithful Hindus, and faithful Christians.

644
00:39:44,214 --> 00:39:47,130
I just like people of faith.
I like people who...

645
00:39:47,340 --> 00:39:50,440
Bow down before a higher power
because I think it's essential.

646
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:54,382
As a prophylactic against hubris,
if nothing else. So humility is good.

647
00:39:54,465 --> 00:39:58,253
Go on. It's essential. And in leadership,
it's the indispensable humility

648
00:39:58,336 --> 00:39:59,927
and courage are the two things.

649
00:40:00,010 --> 00:40:03,326
You need much more than
intelligence. But anyway,

650
00:40:03,409 --> 00:40:06,670
so I feel uncomfortable
declaring intelligence.

651
00:40:07,300 --> 00:40:12,520
Trump's a Christian or not, but I
believe he has said I'm not a Christian.

652
00:40:12,603 --> 00:40:17,178
So you think he's not a Christian
because – I shouldn't say that.

653
00:40:17,262 --> 00:40:20,200
I mean as a pretty bad Christian myself –

654
00:40:20,590 --> 00:40:25,570
I it's really not my job. In fact, I'm
not allowed to run around judging other

655
00:40:25,653 --> 00:40:30,710
people's spiritual conditions. So if
First of all, I'm sorry for saying that.

656
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,180
And second, um...

657
00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:37,253
I said it on the basis of what I thought
was a real quote on a video that I saw.

658
00:40:37,336 --> 00:40:40,379
I was not there. Okay. Christian said it.
There may well be such a quote.

659
00:40:40,462 --> 00:40:41,312
We'll look it up.

660
00:40:42,570 --> 00:40:45,497
There's another aspect to this, though.
Let's talk about something that he said.

661
00:40:45,580 --> 00:40:48,340
You correctly noted –
Something the president said.

662
00:40:48,490 --> 00:40:51,123
In October 2025,
the president told reporters,

663
00:40:51,206 --> 00:40:53,450
I don't think I'm getting into heaven.

664
00:40:53,980 --> 00:40:56,027
He said it three times,
three different ways.

665
00:40:56,110 --> 00:40:59,472
As someone who knows him, who's
had long conversations with him,

666
00:40:59,555 --> 00:41:01,870
why do you think he
would not believe that?

667
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,981
He's getting it to heaven.
Because I think he feels that way.

668
00:41:06,064 --> 00:41:10,580
I think he feels that way. He fears that.
I will also say that Trump drops –

669
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,980
a lot of kind of self-aware
comments parenthetically,

670
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,900
You know, speaking to Trump is...

671
00:41:18,580 --> 00:41:24,857
an amazing experience. And it's so amusing
and interesting. And it's almost like,

672
00:41:24,940 --> 00:41:27,427
being hit with a wave
of warm water, you're kind of,

673
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:30,442
you lose orientation for a second.
There's just a lot, right?

674
00:41:30,525 --> 00:41:31,875
And part of it's by design.

675
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,511
to throw you off balance and to subdue
you with words, um, disconnect,

676
00:41:36,594 --> 00:41:40,034
control the room. If you're the one
a hundred percent, that's it.

677
00:41:40,118 --> 00:41:42,317
And I know you've had the experience. Um,

678
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,683
Um, so it's, you know, it's,
it's something that he does on purpose.

679
00:41:45,766 --> 00:41:49,445
It's a tactic, but it's also a tick.
It's something that just, he just does.

680
00:41:49,528 --> 00:41:52,365
Cause that's who he is.
And one of the things that he does,

681
00:41:52,449 --> 00:41:56,299
he throws these lines out that kind
of stick with you later. Did he say that?

682
00:41:57,460 --> 00:41:59,507
I mean, he once said
to me in conversation...

683
00:41:59,590 --> 00:42:01,390
He said, I'm really insecure.

684
00:42:01,870 --> 00:42:04,667
which I've always known,
of course, because I know him.

685
00:42:04,750 --> 00:42:07,630
And then he said it again,
because I'm really insecure.

686
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,084
And you sort of, is he joking?
Is he not? No, he's not joking.

687
00:42:12,167 --> 00:42:15,797
He tells the truth about how he
feels in the middle of this kind of,

688
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:22,880
roiling boobies of words and ideas
and grunts and inarticulately expressed.

689
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,564
uh concepts he'll sort of throw out this
thing that he's thinking about and um i

690
00:42:28,648 --> 00:42:33,532
felt that his public declaration on not
getting into heaven was was real i don't

691
00:42:33,615 --> 00:42:38,561
know that i've never asked him about it
but i think that's right i know that he's

692
00:42:38,645 --> 00:42:40,880
uncomfortable with the idea of death

693
00:42:42,190 --> 00:42:45,610
Very. And that's been
a good thing, by the way.

694
00:42:45,790 --> 00:42:49,057
Trump in his first term
didn't get us into, you know,

695
00:42:49,140 --> 00:42:53,355
by the standards of American presidents,
he was a restrained leader,

696
00:42:53,439 --> 00:42:54,437
very restrained.

697
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,037
Most restrained since Jimmy Carter, and I
love that about him. I love that then,

698
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,212
and I'm grateful for it. You think
that his genuine state of mind is,

699
00:43:01,295 --> 00:43:03,895
I think I've done some
terrible things in the world.

700
00:43:04,540 --> 00:43:08,129
Why ever I did them, I did them,
and I don't think I'm getting into heaven.

701
00:43:08,212 --> 00:43:10,262
Well, I mean, I've been around a lot of –

702
00:43:10,780 --> 00:43:14,917
as we all have at a certain age, but
around people who are on their way out,

703
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,526
you know, who can see death approaching.
And of course that these are the questions

704
00:43:19,609 --> 00:43:23,444
that they fixate on. It's not, how am
I going to make more money? You know,

705
00:43:23,527 --> 00:43:27,497
the temporal concerns tend to kind of fade
as you have a sight picture of eternity.

706
00:43:27,581 --> 00:43:31,481
Although he's been making a lot of money.
Well, he certainly has. Okay, go on.

707
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:32,720
which is disgusting.

708
00:43:33,490 --> 00:43:36,416
No president should ever make a dollar
as president. That should be completely,

709
00:43:36,499 --> 00:43:38,299
I don't know why that's not illegal.

710
00:43:39,570 --> 00:43:43,420
I hope it is. No member of Congress
should be using his office to make money.

711
00:43:45,010 --> 00:43:47,736
Anyway, but I do think people as they age,

712
00:43:47,819 --> 00:43:52,552
all of a sudden begin to think about
the questions that American society

713
00:43:52,635 --> 00:43:56,097
discourages people from asking
for most of our lives,

714
00:43:56,180 --> 00:44:01,277
which is like what happens after that's
natural. I think it's important. And,

715
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,034
I've known other people who feel
despondent as they approach the end

716
00:44:05,117 --> 00:44:09,040
because they don't have confidence
something better is coming for them.

717
00:44:09,490 --> 00:44:12,793
It's totally the most it's
the most understandable thing.

718
00:44:12,876 --> 00:44:17,450
But when he said to me, it doesn't
matter because in the end, we're all dead.

719
00:44:18,010 --> 00:44:25,010
that suggested to me someone who's
like made decisions about, um,

720
00:44:25,690 --> 00:44:29,444
What happens next? Like, I just
don't care at this point. Like,

721
00:44:29,527 --> 00:44:33,730
I'm just proceeding with the knowledge
that blackness awaits forever.

722
00:44:34,540 --> 00:44:38,480
Boy, that is not a healthy worldview, and
it's an unacceptable worldview for a man

723
00:44:38,563 --> 00:44:42,061
with decision-making power. I have
a question about your own faith. Yeah.

724
00:44:42,144 --> 00:44:45,642
You describe yourself as Episcopalian.
You grew up that way. You grew up.

725
00:44:45,726 --> 00:44:47,850
You were raised Episcopalian.
Has your faith—

726
00:44:47,933 --> 00:44:50,696
So you said that means anything.
Well, it means a certain—

727
00:44:50,779 --> 00:44:53,541
It's a cultural designation,
really. It's a cultural—okay,

728
00:44:53,624 --> 00:44:56,632
that's a fair point. Yeah,
but I'm a generational Episcopalian.

729
00:44:56,715 --> 00:45:00,715
There's religion, which is maybe different
from someone's faith. Yeah, for sure.

730
00:45:01,270 --> 00:45:05,323
Has your faith evolved or changed
in some way? Oh, so dramatically. Yes,

731
00:45:05,406 --> 00:45:06,670
so dramatically. Yeah.

732
00:45:07,510 --> 00:45:12,689
I mean, I wouldn't hold myself out as
a role model for anybody in any category

733
00:45:12,773 --> 00:45:13,606
ever.

734
00:45:14,020 --> 00:45:15,797
and particularly not

735
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,056
with my faith. I don't think I'm
an especially good person. In fact,

736
00:45:20,140 --> 00:45:24,880
if there's one thing, I had a long
conversation with one of my many daughters

737
00:45:24,963 --> 00:45:29,147
this morning on this exact topic,
that if there's one thing that...

738
00:45:29,230 --> 00:45:33,424
An attempt to follow Jesus inspires
and all people who sincerely do.

739
00:45:33,507 --> 00:45:38,350
It's like a deep knowledge of your own
inadequacy and crappiness as a person.

740
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,862
So, I mean, my personal view
is that if you decide, like,

741
00:45:41,945 --> 00:45:44,800
I'm going to really try to be
a good Christian and you –

742
00:45:45,010 --> 00:45:47,259
start to believe that you really,
really are a good Christian,

743
00:45:47,342 --> 00:45:48,442
you're doing it wrong.

744
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:51,677
Like humility is the ticket price.

745
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:57,225
repentance, um, Is the first step.
Is that the evolution for you,

746
00:45:57,308 --> 00:46:01,454
is realizing that in a deeper way
than maybe 10, 20, 30 years ago? Yeah,

747
00:46:01,538 --> 00:46:02,830
100%. Yeah, I mean I –

748
00:46:03,730 --> 00:46:06,502
It's been a process.
You know, I had to quit drinking.

749
00:46:06,585 --> 00:46:09,568
I'm no longer allowed to drink
for 24 years. So, you know,

750
00:46:09,651 --> 00:46:13,851
when you everyone else is drinking and you
realize you can't drink because you're

751
00:46:13,934 --> 00:46:15,150
just like a slobbering.

752
00:46:15,850 --> 00:46:18,797
pathetic and content and alcoholic.
Like that's a –

753
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,337
that's a constant reminder that
you're not like a perfect person.

754
00:46:22,420 --> 00:46:27,712
right? Okay. Which is nice, which is why
AA is so great and so much better than any

755
00:46:27,795 --> 00:46:30,557
church I've ever been
to because, you know,

756
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,927
You can't even talk until you
admit in public your first name,

757
00:46:36,010 --> 00:46:40,050
Not your last name. Like they detach
you from your family. So it's just you.

758
00:46:40,780 --> 00:46:43,692
Hi, I'm Tucker, and I'm an alcoholic.
Imagine saying something like that.

759
00:46:43,776 --> 00:46:45,926
It's so embarrassing.
An alcoholic? Really?

760
00:46:46,330 --> 00:46:49,676
like a spreading urine stain on Skid Row.
It's like embarrassing.

761
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,770
But you have to say that or you can't
talk. So there's something about that.

762
00:46:54,730 --> 00:46:58,973
And this is, of course, by design
and people who wrote the 12 steps were

763
00:46:59,057 --> 00:47:02,278
Christians, but it very much
identical to Christianity.

764
00:47:02,362 --> 00:47:06,365
Like you don't come before God
in prayer before admitting, you know,

765
00:47:06,448 --> 00:47:07,650
forgive us our sins.

766
00:47:08,290 --> 00:47:11,794
as we forgive those who sin
against us, I'm no better than you.

767
00:47:11,878 --> 00:47:15,010
That's like a basic Christian
precept. And I love that.

768
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:20,381
I love that. It's like it's the greatest.
I don't know of another faith that demands

769
00:47:20,465 --> 00:47:24,963
that. There are people who imagine
an impersonal God that created the world,

770
00:47:25,047 --> 00:47:29,726
but it's not talking to the individual.
And there are people who feel they have

771
00:47:29,810 --> 00:47:31,920
a personal relationship with Jesus.

772
00:47:32,500 --> 00:47:33,700
Where are you on that?

773
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:40,163
A serious question? If you're comfortable
answering, if you're uncomfortable.

774
00:47:40,247 --> 00:47:44,500
Of course. I mean, I have zero
interest in Watchmaker God.

775
00:47:44,620 --> 00:47:47,586
Like, okay, how's that
different from the Big Bang?

776
00:47:47,669 --> 00:47:51,712
The watchmaker who makes the thing.
Yes, sorry, sorry. Exactly. Yeah,

777
00:47:51,795 --> 00:47:56,076
how is that different from the Big Bang?
It's not in any way. No, no, no,

778
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,784
you don't. And by the way,
I feel like, this is self-flattery,

779
00:47:59,867 --> 00:48:01,840
but I feel like I'm kind of busy.

780
00:48:01,990 --> 00:48:06,450
We don't have time for any of this
stuff unless it's real, unless God...

781
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:11,188
is alive and showing his power every
day through other people and in nature.

782
00:48:11,271 --> 00:48:15,403
I mean, I don't I don't have time for it.
The conversation about artificial

783
00:48:15,486 --> 00:48:17,060
and artificial intelligence.

784
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:22,717
touches on God again and again. You hear
about people who think they're creating

785
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:23,387
a new God.

786
00:48:23,470 --> 00:48:27,483
The Sand God Silicon. Interesting.
You hear about people who think that

787
00:48:27,566 --> 00:48:30,021
by developing AI,
they'll get closer to God.

788
00:48:30,105 --> 00:48:33,598
They'll get closer to the knowledge
of how the universe works.

789
00:48:33,682 --> 00:48:36,137
What do you think about
that line of reason?

790
00:48:36,220 --> 00:48:38,470
You get closer to God through humility.

791
00:48:39,340 --> 00:48:44,224
You can't approach God before you
acknowledge you're not God. Okay.

792
00:48:44,308 --> 00:48:49,720
So anything that causes people
to embrace the lie that they are God-like,

793
00:48:50,290 --> 00:48:55,778
that they're not lumpy, furry, pathetic
primates stumbling around in the dark,

794
00:48:55,861 --> 00:48:57,767
gets them farther from God.

795
00:48:57,850 --> 00:49:02,239
Okay, so let's just start there. Okay.
And I think the three Abrahamic faiths

796
00:49:02,323 --> 00:49:06,137
acknowledge that. In fact,
that's core, certainly core to Judaism,

797
00:49:06,220 --> 00:49:09,037
whose core texts are also
the core Christian texts.

798
00:49:09,121 --> 00:49:12,590
So I've read them a lot.
And I think it's true in Islam, too.

799
00:49:12,850 --> 00:49:17,830
You bow down before God five times a day.
So I would just say, again...

800
00:49:18,820 --> 00:49:22,274
So you're not getting close to God
until you acknowledge you're not God.

801
00:49:22,357 --> 00:49:25,664
And my sense is that a lot of the
developers of AI mistake themselves

802
00:49:25,747 --> 00:49:28,584
for God. And I have interviewed
a lot of them. I know a lot of them.

803
00:49:28,668 --> 00:49:30,922
I've spent a few years on this topic,
both professionally.

804
00:49:31,005 --> 00:49:33,259
I've done a bunch of interviews on it.
But more than that,

805
00:49:33,342 --> 00:49:36,080
I've traveled to a number of different
countries and talked to a bunch

806
00:49:36,163 --> 00:49:39,384
of different people off camera because I'm
really interested in it. And of course,

807
00:49:39,467 --> 00:49:42,887
I don't understand it. But what I'm
struck by is how little they understand.

808
00:49:42,970 --> 00:49:45,947
about AI, the people who are
developing it. And I mean the biggest...

809
00:49:46,030 --> 00:49:48,506
companies. And I've talked to all
of them except the anthropic.

810
00:49:48,590 --> 00:49:50,741
Even some of the engineers
don't get why things happen.

811
00:49:50,825 --> 00:49:52,692
So they don't understand
two key things. I mean,

812
00:49:52,775 --> 00:49:56,023
I think they don't understand a lot. But
the two key things they don't understand,

813
00:49:56,107 --> 00:49:57,887
and they'll tell you if you ask them.

814
00:49:57,970 --> 00:49:59,937
One is how the large language models work.

815
00:50:00,020 --> 00:50:00,327
Thank you.

816
00:50:00,410 --> 00:50:04,076
They don't understand. So their large
language violence are based on one paper

817
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,310
that theorized if you do this, something
wild will happen. And the paper was right.

818
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:11,776
something wild did happen.
But if you ask any AI engineer, well,

819
00:50:11,860 --> 00:50:13,260
how exactly does that work?

820
00:50:14,510 --> 00:50:16,017
They can't tell you
because they don't know.

821
00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:19,080
The second thing they don't
know is the energy draw.

822
00:50:19,370 --> 00:50:23,663
They don't – nobody,
as of yesterday at least,

823
00:50:23,747 --> 00:50:30,747
understands exactly and can predict with
precision how much energy AI compute will

824
00:50:31,549 --> 00:50:35,010
consume. So, They can't
scale it out. Yeah.

825
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:38,056
And so those are big
unknowns, huge unknowns.

826
00:50:38,139 --> 00:50:42,087
Like on the basis of those two facts
alone, we don't know these two things.

827
00:50:42,171 --> 00:50:44,990
We need to slow down.
That's my view right there. You,

828
00:50:45,073 --> 00:50:49,290
for several years since leaving Fox News,
have made your living on the Internet.

829
00:50:49,374 --> 00:50:52,408
Yeah. And you're a thoughtful guy.
But not in pornography,

830
00:50:52,492 --> 00:50:56,547
like totally legitimate. That's good
to know. Good to know. Not the dark web,

831
00:50:56,631 --> 00:51:00,794
just the normal web. Thank you. Thank
you for confirming that. I appreciate it.

832
00:51:00,877 --> 00:51:02,060
I appreciate it. Yeah.

833
00:51:02,210 --> 00:51:06,282
You've made your living on the Internet,
and I'm sure you're very thoughtful

834
00:51:06,366 --> 00:51:10,001
and you understand the incentives,
the incentives to get more views,

835
00:51:10,084 --> 00:51:12,490
to get more clicks,
to build up the numbers.

836
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:18,657
the incentives seem to cause people
to tend toward more extreme...

837
00:51:18,740 --> 00:51:23,180
or divisive or wild statements.

838
00:51:23,930 --> 00:51:28,571
How do you guard against that danger
yourself as you talk in front of people

839
00:51:28,654 --> 00:51:32,517
all the time? And do you think
you've ever been affected by it?

840
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:38,181
Well, I've been in audience-incentivized
media like you, like my whole life.

841
00:51:38,265 --> 00:51:43,399
So cable news measures its audience
response way more precisely, yeah,

842
00:51:43,482 --> 00:51:45,417
and much more hangs on it.

843
00:51:45,500 --> 00:51:48,538
So I've definitely lived, it's not
just the internet that's like this.

844
00:51:48,622 --> 00:51:51,214
It's the New York Times,
it's the Washington Post, it's NPR,

845
00:51:51,298 --> 00:51:53,132
it's me. Circulation,
audience, absolutely.

846
00:51:53,215 --> 00:51:56,343
But there's something special about
the internet, that instant feedback,

847
00:51:56,426 --> 00:51:58,974
success or failure. I mean,
I'll give you an honest answer,

848
00:51:59,057 --> 00:52:01,695
which you won't believe,
but you can talk. I've got a couple,

849
00:52:01,778 --> 00:52:04,326
three people who work here
and you can ask them off camera.

850
00:52:04,409 --> 00:52:07,626
I'm not claiming to believe or disbelieve
anything. I don't pay attention.

851
00:52:07,709 --> 00:52:11,194
You don't pay attention? I was the only
anchor at Fox who was not on the ratings

852
00:52:11,277 --> 00:52:14,321
list. I never learned how
to read ratings in television.

853
00:52:14,404 --> 00:52:17,487
The ratings list was like an email
distribution. Internal email,

854
00:52:17,571 --> 00:52:20,902
like every day. I wasn't on Fox email,
so I don't do email. Honestly,

855
00:52:20,985 --> 00:52:24,266
when you were on Fox, you didn't
need to keep track of your ratings.

856
00:52:24,350 --> 00:52:28,373
Everybody knew they were very high. But my
ratings were up because I didn't pay any

857
00:52:28,457 --> 00:52:30,600
attention to them.
And when I started at Fox,

858
00:52:30,683 --> 00:52:33,866
which was the week Trump got
elected in 2016, I thought to myself,

859
00:52:33,949 --> 00:52:37,280
what do I want to do with this?
I've been in television for 20 years,

860
00:52:37,363 --> 00:52:41,513
and I had a lot of shows. And I thought,
now I'm in primetime at Fox. People watch.

861
00:52:41,930 --> 00:52:46,231
to achieve. And the number one thing I
wanted to achieve was get the neocons out

862
00:52:46,315 --> 00:52:50,988
of the Republican party. because they
did the Iraq war. And I was really mad.

863
00:52:51,072 --> 00:52:55,624
I remain mad about the Iraq war. And so
I systematically brought on Fox News

864
00:52:55,707 --> 00:53:00,160
contributors like Max Boot or John
Bolton, and I grilled them on my show.

865
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:07,114
And the audience hated it. They hated
it because a key plank of the Republican

866
00:53:07,198 --> 00:53:09,177
platform since George W.

867
00:53:09,260 --> 00:53:14,670
Bush was we're neocons like we're, we're
the world's policemen and we're doing

868
00:53:14,753 --> 00:53:15,880
this because we,

869
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,900
We're bringing freedom and they hate us
for our freedoms and all that nonsense.

870
00:53:19,983 --> 00:53:23,883
And so I went against our audience and
my producer's like, what are you doing?

871
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,440
And I thought it was right.
And by the way, I also thought –

872
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:32,205
It would work over time. Like people,
I always felt that people agreed with me

873
00:53:32,288 --> 00:53:36,700
secretly. Maybe I, maybe I'm more arrogant
than I think I am. Anyway, I did that.

874
00:53:37,430 --> 00:53:41,024
And it didn't help our ratings.
But ultimately, I think it did.

875
00:53:41,107 --> 00:53:45,635
But day-to-day ratings are a trap. You
wind up like Sean Hannity doing the same

876
00:53:45,718 --> 00:53:49,570
show every night because it worked
three years ago. Don't do that.

877
00:53:50,930 --> 00:53:52,671
Be more like, honestly,
like Rachel Maddow,

878
00:53:52,755 --> 00:53:56,151
who I don't agree with on a lot of stuff,
but Rachel Maddow would just do whatever

879
00:53:56,234 --> 00:53:58,697
she wanted to do. If Rachel
Maddow thought it was important,

880
00:53:58,780 --> 00:54:02,367
and I used to work with her, so I know
her, she'd be like, well, I don't care.

881
00:54:02,450 --> 00:54:03,670
I think it's important.

882
00:54:03,890 --> 00:54:07,225
And she got to be number one in her
area, liberal television, doing that.

883
00:54:07,309 --> 00:54:10,363
And I just think it works.
So I don't pay attention to the numbers.

884
00:54:10,446 --> 00:54:12,845
I don't even know what
the numbers are actually here.

885
00:54:12,928 --> 00:54:15,140
The only numbers I ever
see are the YouTube ones.

886
00:54:15,223 --> 00:54:17,323
I don't know what our podcast numbers are.

887
00:54:18,020 --> 00:54:22,977
Um, I do know because we had a company
meeting yesterday that a lot of

888
00:54:23,060 --> 00:54:27,740
the viewers who came with us when
I was fired from Fox have gone.

889
00:54:28,250 --> 00:54:31,574
That was the analysis of people
who work here. That's okay.

890
00:54:31,657 --> 00:54:33,390
What's the reason if you know?

891
00:54:33,830 --> 00:54:35,430
Or Trump.

892
00:54:35,630 --> 00:54:39,747
You know, they love Trump and Trump called
me low IQ and made fun of the fact that I

893
00:54:39,830 --> 00:54:42,147
didn't graduate from college.
And he's an idiot.

894
00:54:42,230 --> 00:54:44,630
He didn't graduate from he
didn't go to Wharton.

895
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:45,980
OK. Busted.

896
00:54:48,110 --> 00:54:53,210
And so they – that's okay.
That's all right. I mean I'm not –

897
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,411
we're doing fine. And actually,
I think our numbers are strong,

898
00:54:57,494 --> 00:55:00,254
but I would say the same
thing no matter what.

899
00:55:00,337 --> 00:55:03,860
The real threat is not audience
capture, at least for me.

900
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,940
And again, you don't have to believe me.

901
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:12,207
but it is true, the real threat is,
is that you become a monomaniac.

902
00:55:12,290 --> 00:55:16,590
that you get so mad about a topic
that you can't stop talking about it.

903
00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:19,460
And that's the threat to me.

904
00:55:19,730 --> 00:55:22,703
Like where you just become totally
fixated on this thing. Okay.

905
00:55:22,786 --> 00:55:26,535
And there are a lot of things going on.
Do you have moments where you think I'm

906
00:55:26,618 --> 00:55:28,718
heading in that direction?
A hundred percent.

907
00:55:28,801 --> 00:55:31,289
And so the key is don't pay
attention to the attacks.

908
00:55:31,372 --> 00:55:35,472
The way that people get captured by their
enemies is by fixating on their enemies.

909
00:55:36,590 --> 00:55:42,278
And I had an experience once in a very
bad car accident during the Iraq war with

910
00:55:42,362 --> 00:55:45,886
a guy who was driving.
I was in the backseat, man.

911
00:55:45,969 --> 00:55:48,297
We almost hit this building. Hmm.

912
00:55:48,380 --> 00:55:50,668
And someone fired on the car,
and we went into this dead spin.

913
00:55:50,752 --> 00:55:53,614
Someone fired on the car? Yeah, we were
driving through Nazarene, Iraq. Okay,

914
00:55:53,697 --> 00:55:55,897
go on. Okay, yeah, got it.
Here's the point.

915
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:58,578
He lost control of the vehicle
and we didn't hit the building.

916
00:55:58,661 --> 00:56:00,306
And I was like, that's
the craziest thing I've ever,

917
00:56:00,390 --> 00:56:02,007
how did you not hit that building?

918
00:56:02,090 --> 00:56:03,770
And he goes, don't look at it.

919
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,071
He was actually turned out he was a guy
called Bill Frost, wonderful guy,

920
00:56:07,154 --> 00:56:09,773
former a force recon Marine.
And he taught defensive driving.

921
00:56:09,857 --> 00:56:13,096
And he said the first rule of defensive
driving is if you don't want to hit

922
00:56:13,179 --> 00:56:14,579
something, don't look at it.

923
00:56:14,720 --> 00:56:18,045
And I thought that's the, that's
like the deepest life rule ever.

924
00:56:18,128 --> 00:56:20,823
If you don't want to hit
something, don't look at it.

925
00:56:20,907 --> 00:56:23,937
If you don't want to become
your enemies, don't look at it.

926
00:56:24,020 --> 00:56:27,587
Don't fixate on your enemies.
And that's so true in our business.

927
00:56:27,670 --> 00:56:32,304
Like if you spend your entire life reading
people's attacks on you and the internet,

928
00:56:32,387 --> 00:56:35,377
you're, And you're like,
they're haters. They're horrible.

929
00:56:35,460 --> 00:56:37,610
You become a hater
and you become horrible.

930
00:56:38,150 --> 00:56:40,817
by letting them in. And so,
again, you can ask anybody.

931
00:56:40,900 --> 00:56:43,967
It's one of the reasons that I
try to stay away from that crap.

932
00:56:44,050 --> 00:56:46,750
I don't read replies.
I'm not on the Internet all day.

933
00:56:47,300 --> 00:56:50,485
I don't, I never read anything
about myself. Why would you do that?

934
00:56:50,568 --> 00:56:54,168
Do you not know who you are? You want
strangers to tell you who you are?

935
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:56,883
I asked my wife and kids
or my business partners,

936
00:56:56,967 --> 00:56:59,907
my college roommate or my staff.
I mean, they know who I am.

937
00:56:59,990 --> 00:57:02,690
And I know who I am. Tucker Carlson,
it's been a real pleasure.

938
00:57:02,774 --> 00:57:06,057
Thank you so much for taking my time.
Thank you, Steve. Thank you.

939
00:57:06,140 --> 00:57:10,812
Just a reminder that new episodes
of Newsmakers drop whenever they're

940
00:57:10,896 --> 00:57:14,190
available. We share them
on Up First when we can,

941
00:57:14,273 --> 00:57:19,152
but the best way to stay caught up
is to follow or subscribe to the show

942
00:57:19,235 --> 00:57:22,805
on Spotify, YouTube,
or wherever you watch or listen.

943
00:57:22,888 --> 00:57:27,078
You can also find it in the NPR app.
And remember, Newsmakers,

944
00:57:27,162 --> 00:57:32,523
like Up First, relies on supporters who
value independent journalism and a free

945
00:57:32,606 --> 00:57:33,440
press.

946
00:57:36,140 --> 00:57:41,124
Get perks from the podcasts you trust.
Go to plus.npr.org. I'm Steve Inskeep.

947
00:57:41,207 --> 00:57:44,300
Thanks for listening
to Up First from NPR News.