WEBVTT 00:00:01.010 --> 00:00:05.310 From the New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily. 00:00:10.470 --> 00:00:14.087 More and more people are wearing technology. Fitness bands, 00:00:14.170 --> 00:00:18.289 smart rings, biometric shirts. These devices help track everything, 00:00:18.372 --> 00:00:22.052 from their heart rate to even the temperature of their skin. 00:00:22.135 --> 00:00:27.090 The latest frontier? Health tech for babies. And it's being supercharged by AI. 00:00:30.750 --> 00:00:35.115 tells us about her family's experience with all of this health tracking 00:00:35.198 --> 00:00:38.310 technology. And we discuss whether it's helping us, 00:00:38.393 --> 00:00:41.150 just adding to our anxieties, or maybe both. 00:00:45.530 --> 00:00:47.910 It's Wednesday, September 23rd. 00:00:55.020 --> 00:00:59.135 Okay, so Sapna, as you know, we are here today to talk about not just wearable 00:00:59.218 --> 00:01:03.064 technology, but all kinds of technology that helps you track health data. 00:01:03.148 --> 00:01:06.637 And I just want to lay my cards out on the table and say that I... 00:01:06.720 --> 00:01:09.580 don't use any of this stuff. I don't have an Apple Watch. 00:01:09.663 --> 00:01:13.763 I don't use an Oura ring. I'm very much of the mindset that I don't need to spend 00:01:13.846 --> 00:01:17.791 $300 on some kind of piece of jewelry that's going to tell me that if I drink, 00:01:17.874 --> 00:01:21.302 I won't sleep very well. So do you think by the end of this episode, 00:01:21.386 --> 00:01:24.711 I will realize the error of my ways or will I be more set in them? 00:01:24.794 --> 00:01:27.499 Great question. I don't know how you're going to feel, 00:01:27.583 --> 00:01:31.785 but I can tell you that I never thought I would be using a bunch of this technology 00:01:31.869 --> 00:01:36.000 or that my family would. And it all kind of crept into my life. How so? So I'm a 00:01:36.720 --> 00:01:39.904 And when my first kid was born about four years ago, 00:01:39.987 --> 00:01:44.490 I was looking for a baby monitor. And at that time, as I did my research, 00:01:44.574 --> 00:01:49.600 everyone kept recommending this monitor called the Nanit. The Nanit, okay. Okay. 00:01:49.770 --> 00:01:54.429 And tell us what the Nana does. So the Nana is a baby monitor that hooks up 00:01:54.512 --> 00:01:57.780 to your home Wi-Fi and lives as an app on your phone. 00:01:57.863 --> 00:02:02.711 It's kind of like the eye of Sauron. It's grabbing data from the video footage 00:02:02.795 --> 00:02:05.493 and logging. The webs for the eye of Sauron? 00:02:05.577 --> 00:02:09.603 Is that really what you want, watching your baby? Well, you know, 00:02:09.687 --> 00:02:13.334 you might not think so at first, but it was pretty amazing. 00:02:13.417 --> 00:02:17.590 So you open this app and the app is tracking the baby's movements. 00:02:19.770 --> 00:02:24.562 when they woke up, when they fell asleep, it can see when their eyes open and close. 00:02:24.645 --> 00:02:28.682 It's looking at all of these movements and sleep patterns of your baby, 00:02:28.765 --> 00:02:32.628 and then it's putting it into this digestible format for any parent. 00:02:32.712 --> 00:02:37.445 So my husband and I would open the app and we would look at the insights tab and we 00:02:37.528 --> 00:02:41.159 would see, okay, how many times did we visit our baby overnight? 00:02:41.243 --> 00:02:45.106 How many hours of sleep did she get? How many times did she wake up? 00:02:45.189 --> 00:02:46.930 And when she woke up, how long 00:02:49.770 --> 00:02:52.941 So from this app, you can check on your baby from anywhere, 00:02:53.025 --> 00:02:57.134 whether you're at home or at the grocery store or maybe even at your office. 00:02:57.217 --> 00:03:01.547 And one of the things that hooked us on this app was the video camera would make 00:03:01.630 --> 00:03:05.740 these cute montages of these moments of greeting our daughter in the morning 00:03:05.823 --> 00:03:08.663 and this look of joy on her face as we picked her up. 00:03:08.747 --> 00:03:12.194 And the Nanette is just one of many of these baby tech products. 00:03:12.277 --> 00:03:15.228 There's a really big rival of Nanette called the Owlet, 00:03:15.311 --> 00:03:18.290 and that tracks a baby's pulse through a sock. A sock. 00:03:19.770 --> 00:03:23.928 Oh, wow. There's a sensor in the sock. There's an app that tracks feedings 00:03:24.012 --> 00:03:26.565 and diaper changes. And with that information, 00:03:26.648 --> 00:03:30.921 markets an AI chatbot to parents who want to understand their baby's habits. 00:03:31.005 --> 00:03:35.278 There's monitors that send alerts to parents when their baby's face might be 00:03:35.361 --> 00:03:37.310 covered in the crib and on and on. 00:03:43.200 --> 00:03:46.851 And across the board, I would say these apps are feeding off parents anxiety, 00:03:46.934 --> 00:03:50.051 their questions, the sort of persistent. Is this normal? Yeah. No, 00:03:50.135 --> 00:03:53.834 this is so interesting just because I just had dinner with a couple of friends 00:03:53.917 --> 00:03:57.956 of mine and the husband was saying that he couldn't sleep with his newborn because he 00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:00.526 was so worried that the newborn would stop breathing. 00:04:00.609 --> 00:04:02.853 And he kept checking in the middle of the night. 00:04:02.937 --> 00:04:06.345 And the only thing that allowed him to sleep was it turned out he bought 00:04:06.428 --> 00:04:10.321 a nanette because he was like, OK, I can sleep because this thing will alert me if 00:04:10.405 --> 00:04:11.555 my kid stops breathing. 00:04:13.200 --> 00:04:16.953 because I'll get woken up if there's a problem. Yeah, definitely. 00:04:17.036 --> 00:04:21.674 And I think that's the running theme with all of these products is they tap into 00:04:21.757 --> 00:04:26.159 a new parent's desire for more sleep. Anyone with an infant knows that sleep 00:04:26.242 --> 00:04:29.877 is sort of this holy grail when you have an infant in the home. 00:04:29.960 --> 00:04:34.185 And there's a lot of other anxieties that they promised to sort of solve. 00:04:34.268 --> 00:04:38.670 And I noticed this really with my second child when we bought another Nanit, 00:04:38.753 --> 00:04:40.760 that it started incorporating more 00:04:43.200 --> 00:04:46.489 giving me feedback on what happened or monitoring them, 00:04:46.572 --> 00:04:50.658 but it was now giving me actual advice. I mean, including, you know, 00:04:50.741 --> 00:04:55.685 when they should sleep next or, you know, how we should interpret different things 00:04:55.769 --> 00:04:58.628 that they're doing in their crib. And of course, 00:04:58.711 --> 00:05:03.472 all of these products are trying to sell you the advice with a subscription fee 00:05:03.555 --> 00:05:08.254 a lot of the time. And it started raising these questions for me around, okay, 00:05:08.337 --> 00:05:11.280 when should we trust our own instincts versus if 00:05:11.370 --> 00:05:16.372 artificial intelligence when it comes to decision making around our kids' health? 00:05:16.455 --> 00:05:21.456 And on top of that, how should we think about AI when it comes to our own health? 00:05:21.540 --> 00:05:26.165 So as I was marketed all of these different forms of advice on how to watch 00:05:26.248 --> 00:05:31.187 over my child, I decided I wanted to know more about this company whose products 00:05:31.270 --> 00:05:35.790 stare at my kids all night. And it turns out it has way bigger ambitions 00:05:41.370 --> 00:05:43.693 at the Nana office in New York. Well, yeah, 00:05:43.776 --> 00:05:47.610 I loved learning more about what Nana's up to. And what did you learn? 00:05:47.694 --> 00:05:51.919 What did she tell you about the company? So Selena sees a lot of potential in 00:05:52.003 --> 00:05:56.452 the data that Nana is collecting and the insights that they can give parents over 00:05:56.536 --> 00:06:00.650 time. So 90% of a child's brain develops between the ages of zero and five. 00:06:00.733 --> 00:06:05.294 That's when their brain is most plastic. And yet kids are going to the pediatrician 00:06:05.378 --> 00:06:09.604 basically once a year for a checkup. 22 minutes is the average amount of time 00:06:09.687 --> 00:06:11.030 that that checkup lasts. 00:06:11.370 --> 00:06:14.721 And yet children are sort of developing every single day. Obviously, 00:06:14.804 --> 00:06:18.509 we both know this having two young kids. And so we have this infrastructure 00:06:18.592 --> 00:06:22.398 and opportunity to unlock this black box. That's the first five years of life 00:06:22.481 --> 00:06:23.390 that exists today. 00:06:23.610 --> 00:06:27.971 And the message that Nana is pushing is that there is a black box around 00:06:28.054 --> 00:06:31.612 this stage of a child growing as they develop motor skills, 00:06:31.696 --> 00:06:35.624 as they learn to talk, as they engage with the world around them. 00:06:35.707 --> 00:06:38.587 So why isn't there more information around this? 00:06:38.670 --> 00:06:42.352 And what they're saying is Nana can provide that information. 00:06:42.435 --> 00:06:46.611 We have the measurements every single day of what's happening. Right. 00:06:46.694 --> 00:06:47.990 So the power of that. 00:06:53.610 --> 00:06:58.432 a kid's overall health and development. And investors see that potential as well. 00:06:58.515 --> 00:07:01.459 Nanette just raised another $50 million last year, 00:07:01.543 --> 00:07:06.425 and its CEO says that with more data, the company can help parents ultimately make 00:07:06.508 --> 00:07:10.785 better decisions for their kids. People have questions every single day, 00:07:10.868 --> 00:07:14.902 multiple times a day. Is this normal? Should my child be doing this? 00:07:14.986 --> 00:07:19.565 How do I handle that? Her argument is, if you look at modern parenting today, 00:07:19.648 --> 00:07:22.010 people are Googling. They're turning to 00:07:23.610 --> 00:07:28.309 chat GPT. Sure. What she's saying and what Nana is saying is this device 00:07:28.392 --> 00:07:33.489 is collecting this personalized, really specific information about your child. 00:07:33.573 --> 00:07:38.869 And so Nana has this advantage in giving you advice or information or helping you 00:07:38.952 --> 00:07:43.319 track milestones that are very specific to your child. For example, 00:07:43.402 --> 00:07:48.450 if you are trying to see, you know, what is it normal for a child to walk or 00:07:53.610 --> 00:07:57.789 between the age of this and this, your child should be expected to walk, 00:07:57.872 --> 00:08:01.281 very general. Right. If you're going to Claude or wherever, 00:08:01.365 --> 00:08:03.945 that's the information that they have, right? 00:08:04.029 --> 00:08:06.668 It's like the range of normal is this to this. 00:08:06.752 --> 00:08:11.345 We have all the information that's been captured every single day that can help 00:08:11.428 --> 00:08:16.140 you understand what's right for your child and also what's right for your family, 00:08:16.223 --> 00:08:21.112 right? So is there something Nana could do by looking at my baby in the crib to tell 00:08:21.196 --> 00:08:24.367 me that like crawling maybe... 00:08:24.450 --> 00:08:28.798 I don't know, around the corner or like talking maybe around the corner for her 00:08:28.881 --> 00:08:29.714 specifically. 00:08:31.020 --> 00:08:33.480 Yeah, that's on the horizon for us. Really? Yeah. 00:08:33.630 --> 00:08:38.862 And I think there is a real conviction from the company in that this kind 00:08:38.945 --> 00:08:43.595 of information will help parents sleep better, have less anxiety, 00:08:43.678 --> 00:08:48.837 give them this extra resource that is almost a disadvantage to not have. 00:08:48.920 --> 00:08:54.443 And she even imagines that parents will keep nanets in their kids' bedroom to 00:08:54.527 --> 00:08:55.910 the age of 10. Wow. 00:09:03.630 --> 00:09:08.027 really starting to wear Apple Watches and things like that until around age 10, 00:09:08.111 --> 00:09:10.636 for the most part, sometimes a little younger. 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:15.030 So we really think of that 0 to 10 as Nana's kind of the place that we lift. 00:09:15.870 --> 00:09:20.490 Okay, keeping cameras in a child's bedroom until they're 10 years old... 00:09:20.910 --> 00:09:23.003 Maybe some kids are totally fine with this, 00:09:23.086 --> 00:09:26.850 but I can also imagine some kids really not liking that and not liking being 00:09:26.933 --> 00:09:29.970 surveilled. Maybe that's not healthy for them. I don't know. 00:09:30.780 --> 00:09:34.476 Yeah, I mean, it doesn't really happen so much today. So total experiment. 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:38.612 I could see a lot of kids really not being okay with this. But on the other hand, 00:09:38.696 --> 00:09:42.800 you know, the CEO of Nanit is saying, we are going to keep this device in my kid's 00:09:42.883 --> 00:09:46.528 room for longer. Her own kid. Her own kids. And so let's see how it goes. 00:09:46.611 --> 00:09:50.664 Okay, but what about like privacy issues, like irrespective of how the kid feels? 00:09:50.748 --> 00:09:54.801 Like what is Nanit saying that it's doing with all that data that it's collecting 00:09:54.884 --> 00:09:56.997 by having a camera in the kid's room? Yeah, 00:09:57.080 --> 00:09:59.927 so this is a really big point because obviously parents, 00:10:00.010 --> 00:10:02.687 are really careful about what they... 00:10:02.770 --> 00:10:08.190 put around their children. Understandably. Understandably. And so Nanit says that it 00:10:08.290 --> 00:10:11.958 does not sell the data to anyone else. It doesn't target ads against it. 00:10:12.041 --> 00:10:16.386 Not yet. Not yet. They say that they won't and that the subscription fee that they're 00:10:16.470 --> 00:10:19.460 charging customers is proof that the customer and the baby, 00:10:19.543 --> 00:10:23.784 that is not the product. They're charging that money so they can offer all of these 00:10:23.868 --> 00:10:27.900 insights and information to the user. What's that phrase they say in technology 00:10:27.983 --> 00:10:32.224 that when the product is free, you are the product and when it costs something like 00:10:32.308 --> 00:10:34.569 a subscription, then you are not the product. 00:10:34.652 --> 00:10:37.830 So that sort of makes sense to me and what I understand about 00:10:38.290 --> 00:10:41.357 data. Yeah, that's right. And that's what the company would say here. 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:44.750 Safna, after you did this interview with the CEO, obviously, 00:10:44.833 --> 00:10:49.444 as a mother of two children, did that help you weigh the cost-benefit analysis just 00:10:49.527 --> 00:10:52.724 about whether you should have this in your own home? Yeah, 00:10:52.807 --> 00:10:56.626 it did help me see some of the benefits and look at how they're using 00:10:56.709 --> 00:11:00.472 this information, how it could help me in the future. But, you know, 00:11:00.555 --> 00:11:04.430 some people in my own life have also pointed out some of the drawbacks 00:11:04.514 --> 00:11:08.559 and disadvantages of using this sort of technology, namely my own mother, 00:11:08.642 --> 00:11:09.660 Mother Maheshwari. 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:16.590 What were her objections? Many. When you install the app on my phone, 00:11:16.673 --> 00:11:22.657 I was shocked. You know, I am just like horrified, but I guess I have to accept. 00:11:22.740 --> 00:11:28.193 I have to take the parents' instruction. So the first time my mom watched 00:11:28.276 --> 00:11:32.819 my daughter overnight, I installed the Nana app on her phone. 00:11:32.903 --> 00:11:38.735 It started sending me messages. Your baby was tended, you know, that time ago, 00:11:38.818 --> 00:11:39.880 the baby moved 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:46.466 this is too much. It was stressing me. Now I'm looking at the monitor and thinking, 00:11:46.550 --> 00:11:50.037 God, I have to watch this thing. I don't think I liked it. 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:53.237 I don't know how you guys put up with that. Because 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:56.960 She was shocked by the constant flow of information. 00:11:57.043 --> 00:12:02.760 She didn't understand why she was getting these push notifications from this app. 00:12:02.843 --> 00:12:06.698 One day I put it on my phone and my phone battery died. 00:12:06.781 --> 00:12:11.495 I didn't realize the whole night was on and maybe it was in charge. 00:12:11.578 --> 00:12:17.020 In the morning, I woke up and I said, oh, my God, what has happened to baby? 00:12:17.860 --> 00:12:23.294 And I woke up and I was like charged into her room. I said, "Oh my God, 00:12:23.377 --> 00:12:25.817 the baby must be crying." Thank you. 00:12:25.900 --> 00:12:30.900 You know, she was asleep. I probably would have heard without that monitor. 00:12:32.520 --> 00:12:36.940 And it was such a shift from how she used to put my two siblings and me to sleep. 00:12:41.950 --> 00:12:45.005 So besides it being jarring and maybe overly stimulating, 00:12:45.088 --> 00:12:49.519 did your mom have like specific objections to the information that she was getting 00:12:49.602 --> 00:12:52.410 or the instructions that you were giving her about? 00:12:52.690 --> 00:12:57.539 this technology and how to use it? So my mom's of the camp that this kind 00:12:57.623 --> 00:13:02.404 of information gave us a sense that we could and should control a baby's 00:13:02.488 --> 00:13:07.472 environment to really optimize the sleep. What does that mean a little bit, 00:13:07.555 --> 00:13:09.650 optimize the sleep? Yeah, so... 00:13:09.760 --> 00:13:13.491 Nana actually studies the optimal temperature that a baby can sleep at. 00:13:13.574 --> 00:13:16.338 It's one of the studies they're conducting right now. 00:13:16.421 --> 00:13:18.970 What is the optimal temperature for a baby? Well, 00:13:19.054 --> 00:13:21.334 they believe it's between 68 and 72 degrees, 00:13:21.417 --> 00:13:25.500 but they're finding out for sure. Okay. But it's also kind of lore in the... 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:30.439 the parenting world. I think you would probably find a lot of different sources 00:13:30.522 --> 00:13:34.863 that tell you that the temperature has to be between 68 and 72 degrees. 00:13:34.946 --> 00:13:38.041 And to my mom, this is a completely crazy behavior. 00:13:38.124 --> 00:13:42.589 Who does sleep at the room temperature? That's it is shocking. 68 degree? 00:13:42.672 --> 00:13:47.200 Oh my God. You must be kidding. Baby can sleep in any kind of temperature. 00:13:47.283 --> 00:13:48.280 Even I have seen 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:57.780 At least 100 degree, you know. Easy. 00:13:58.390 --> 00:14:03.725 Our baby slept just fine. So I think your mind has been conditioned by these 00:14:03.808 --> 00:14:06.227 monitors. what the temperature should be. 00:14:06.310 --> 00:14:10.510 So this is where, you know, this technology is teaching you. 00:14:10.990 --> 00:14:14.297 There are certain things that should be in certain ways, 00:14:14.380 --> 00:14:18.959 but I don't believe in that. She really believes that babies can sleep in all 00:14:19.042 --> 00:14:23.439 kinds of environments and that you're bringing a baby into your lifestyle. 00:14:23.522 --> 00:14:26.670 They will adjust, and that is just how parenting is. 00:14:27.010 --> 00:14:31.802 And my mom thinks this kind of information feeds this unhealthy obsession among 00:14:31.885 --> 00:14:36.492 modern day working parents. Now, oh, my God, bath routine, seven o'clock or, 00:14:36.575 --> 00:14:41.121 you know, and then you are on such a schedule. And I feel my wife feel, oh, 00:14:41.204 --> 00:14:46.119 my God, I have to do all these things. Then you have to put them in a sack or put 00:14:46.203 --> 00:14:48.835 them in there. You don't want to touch them. 00:14:48.918 --> 00:14:51.510 Once you drop them in the crib, that's it. 00:14:51.850 --> 00:14:55.489 It's all tied to these really strict schedules for our kids. 00:14:55.573 --> 00:14:58.778 And she's of the view that you can't optimize a baby. 00:14:58.861 --> 00:15:03.866 You can't optimize a little human being as much as adults maybe trying to optimize 00:15:03.949 --> 00:15:08.230 every facet of our diets and exercise and this and that. It's a baby. 00:15:08.530 --> 00:15:12.190 Babies are not robots. You still need to go with the, you know, 00:15:12.400 --> 00:15:18.340 your instinct, baby's cue, and a bit relaxed about the whole thing. 00:15:18.490 --> 00:15:23.108 I think she just sees all of this as an unnecessary layer for what is perhaps 00:15:23.192 --> 00:15:27.710 the most universal of human experiences. Raising a child. Raising a child. 00:15:28.570 --> 00:15:32.001 Stephanie, you mentioned work and the idea that this technology helps working 00:15:32.084 --> 00:15:33.857 parents. And I do want to point out that 00:15:33.940 --> 00:15:37.302 I don't know how old your mother is, but there are a lot more women in 00:15:37.385 --> 00:15:40.285 the workforce now than a generation ago. And we know that, 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:44.929 Parenting disproportionately falls to women very often as opposed to men. 00:15:45.013 --> 00:15:48.496 But I do wonder, maybe in a little pushback to your mother, 00:15:48.579 --> 00:15:53.089 whether this technology is helping to balance out what is a gender imbalance 00:15:53.173 --> 00:15:57.683 in parenting by allowing, for example, both parents to sleep better at night 00:15:57.767 --> 00:15:59.580 instead of perhaps just being. 00:15:59.710 --> 00:16:00.543 The dad. 00:16:00.700 --> 00:16:05.447 Right. And I think this is something that came up a lot in my reporting around 00:16:05.531 --> 00:16:09.845 this story is this technology really appeals to a lot of folks because, 00:16:09.928 --> 00:16:13.870 you know, they may not have a great maternity or paternity leave. 00:16:13.954 --> 00:16:18.515 And they often have two working parents who have certain schedules. And so, 00:16:18.599 --> 00:16:23.532 you know, of course, there's going to be this desire to get the child to sleep at 00:16:23.615 --> 00:16:28.610 a certain time to have a schedule so that you can make that puzzle of life in 2026 00:16:28.694 --> 00:16:30.180 in America work for you. 00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:35.488 And I mean, it's true. My mom didn't work when she had us and she didn't have 00:16:35.571 --> 00:16:39.600 to adhere to this sort of work schedule while raising three kids. 00:16:39.683 --> 00:16:44.029 But her bigger concern is, you know, is our generation leaning so much 00:16:44.112 --> 00:16:48.887 on technology that we're replacing some of our human abilities, some of the. 00:16:48.970 --> 00:16:54.245 things that make us people. And I heard this concern echoed from a pediatrician I 00:16:54.328 --> 00:16:57.089 spoke with as well. And she said, you know, 00:16:57.173 --> 00:17:01.058 instead of tuning into what your baby is trying to tell you, 00:17:01.142 --> 00:17:06.483 observing them yourself, learning their little cues for when they're tired or when 00:17:06.566 --> 00:17:11.245 they need something from you, are we relying ultimately too much on apps 00:17:11.329 --> 00:17:15.430 and technology and chatbots? And where does that go from here? 00:17:16.930 --> 00:17:20.288 And of course, you know, we've been talking about babies, 00:17:20.371 --> 00:17:24.031 but this type of data collection, sleep scoring, optimization, 00:17:24.115 --> 00:17:28.620 these are all things that have been happening with adults for some time now, 00:17:28.703 --> 00:17:33.389 and it's only set to expand. With all of the advances we're now seeing with AI, 00:17:33.473 --> 00:17:38.280 we are in this new era of being encouraged to rely on this technology for some of 00:17:38.363 --> 00:17:42.710 the most personal decisions we can make about our health and our bodies. 00:17:42.940 --> 00:17:44.900 Thank you. Thank you. 00:17:49.060 --> 00:17:50.060 Thank you. 00:17:53.260 --> 00:17:54.260 Thank you. 00:17:57.790 --> 00:17:58.790 We'll be right back. 00:18:02.320 --> 00:18:06.127 Okay, Sepna, so far we've only been talking about tracking and analyzing data 00:18:06.210 --> 00:18:10.067 for babies, but obviously a lot of adults like to track their own data, right? 00:18:10.151 --> 00:18:14.261 Like wearables are a huge market. Lots of people listening to this podcast probably 00:18:14.344 --> 00:18:18.454 use one or know somebody who does. So help me understand how big of a market it is. 00:18:18.537 --> 00:18:21.720 Like, I wonder if you have a way of quantifying it in some way. 00:18:21.970 --> 00:18:25.737 Well, let me tell you, basically half of Americans have one of these things 00:18:25.821 --> 00:18:29.486 that are tracking our health in some sort of way. God, half of Americans. 00:18:29.569 --> 00:18:32.926 That's right. Do you remember the Fitbit? I do remember the Fitbit. 00:18:33.009 --> 00:18:36.366 That was the thing that told you to take 10,000 steps a day, right? 00:18:36.449 --> 00:18:40.165 That's right. People suddenly bought Fitbits and now everybody was talking 00:18:40.248 --> 00:18:44.427 about their steps. Yes. So that has given way to a different world where now people 00:18:44.510 --> 00:18:47.559 are wearing smartwatches, but they're also wearing the Whoop. 00:18:47.642 --> 00:18:51.390 They're wearing the Aura. They're wearing all of these different devices. 00:18:51.970 --> 00:18:55.694 And they're way more sophisticated than just counting your steps. 00:18:55.778 --> 00:19:00.381 And it's interesting. I mean, Aura and Whoop are companies that could go public, 00:19:00.464 --> 00:19:05.009 that have been valued in the many billions of dollars. More broadly, wearables. 00:19:05.092 --> 00:19:09.227 And this market is approaching $100 billion, according to some analysts. 00:19:09.310 --> 00:19:13.503 And more and more people are using them to not just track their activity, 00:19:13.586 --> 00:19:16.783 but to get this AI-fueled advice on what they should do. 00:19:16.867 --> 00:19:19.210 Can you just give me an example of that? 00:19:21.970 --> 00:19:26.644 a Whoop or an Oura Ring that are more complicated or sophisticated that people 00:19:26.727 --> 00:19:30.548 might actually want? Yeah. So, I mean, it's tracking your sleep. 00:19:30.631 --> 00:19:35.610 And actually, funnily enough, it gives you a sleep score the same as Nana gives you 00:19:35.693 --> 00:19:40.489 for your baby. It can give you really detailed feedback on your exercise habits. 00:19:40.573 --> 00:19:45.330 And Whoop in particular offers something called a recovery score for its users 00:19:51.970 --> 00:19:55.897 based on a bunch of metrics. Stress, if you're feeling sick, 00:19:55.980 --> 00:19:59.937 how poorly you ate or how well you ate, how hard you worked, 00:20:00.020 --> 00:20:05.508 And then they shoot out this number that's supposed to tell you how ready your body 00:20:05.591 --> 00:20:10.407 is to take on the day. And just to be clear, these are consumer products, 00:20:10.491 --> 00:20:15.240 not medical devices. So this is a sort of label that Whoop came up with, 00:20:15.323 --> 00:20:18.973 but its users love it. Okay, but like, how does this actually help you? 00:20:19.056 --> 00:20:22.827 Because I can imagine that the advice this thing is giving you is probably advice... 00:20:22.910 --> 00:20:27.111 you kind of knew already? Like, what is it doing that common sense and the internet 00:20:27.194 --> 00:20:31.070 weren't already doing? Oh, Rachel, this is the Luddites perspective. 00:20:33.050 --> 00:20:36.958 Okay, so I mean, to be fair, I don't own one of these devices. 00:20:37.041 --> 00:20:40.240 I wear an Apple Watch. I use it more for the timer. 00:20:40.324 --> 00:20:45.197 I use it kind of to keep a loose eye on whether I exercise or moved or if I'm 00:20:45.280 --> 00:20:48.544 traveling. Oh, wow, like look how many steps I made. 00:20:48.627 --> 00:20:51.634 But my husband recently started wearing a whoop. 00:20:51.717 --> 00:20:56.783 And so I've gotten kind of a closer look at these devices and how they can alter 00:20:56.866 --> 00:20:57.700 a person's 00:20:58.790 --> 00:21:02.896 a You know, doctors have been telling him to do this or that for years. 00:21:02.979 --> 00:21:06.993 But now that whoop tells him he actually listens. Yes, he does. Oh, my God. 00:21:07.076 --> 00:21:10.215 Wait. So what's that dynamic? Why is he listening to whoop? 00:21:10.299 --> 00:21:14.312 What is it telling him? So I wanted to talk to my husband for this episode, 00:21:14.396 --> 00:21:18.190 but he refused. So I did the next best thing and I decided to interview 00:21:18.274 --> 00:21:22.342 the friend who got him into the whoop. You are kind of whoop patient zero in 00:21:22.425 --> 00:21:23.259 our household. 00:21:24.290 --> 00:21:29.578 That is flattering, I guess you could say. Okay, tell us about the friend. 00:21:29.661 --> 00:21:33.570 So our friend Kevin Huang is a trader for a hedge fund. 00:21:33.653 --> 00:21:38.143 And so probably more than most people, he's obsessed with data. 00:21:38.226 --> 00:21:42.716 It felt like something that would jive with my own personality, 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:45.630 kind of gamifying your health in a way. 00:21:45.860 --> 00:21:49.847 Last fall, he got a WHOOP after a bunch of his friends were talking up all of these 00:21:49.931 --> 00:21:51.531 metrics that the WHOOP collects. 00:21:59.210 --> 00:22:03.092 oh, well, how old are you and how old does your whoop think you are? 00:22:03.175 --> 00:22:07.757 And one of the things that got him hooked right away on this thing was something 00:22:07.840 --> 00:22:10.556 called the whoop age. Okay, what is a whoop age? 00:22:10.639 --> 00:22:14.870 So it's this number that is such a good marketing gimmick for this device. 00:22:14.954 --> 00:22:19.185 And it's based on a bunch of things. It's based on your sleep performance. 00:22:19.269 --> 00:22:23.850 Performance is such an absurd word to use, but it is a common word now for this. 00:22:23.934 --> 00:22:28.573 It's based on your resting heart rate, the amount of activity you engage in every 00:22:28.657 --> 00:22:33.818 day. and Kevin, who is 37 at the time, did not score so hot. What did he score? 00:22:33.902 --> 00:22:35.550 How old was his whoop age? 00:22:35.930 --> 00:22:40.420 My first whoop age was actually 44, which was a bit of a shocking number. 00:22:40.503 --> 00:22:43.365 He said he was 44. Oh no, that's so much older. 00:22:43.448 --> 00:22:48.001 I don't think it's fair to put someone in a whole different decade without 00:22:48.084 --> 00:22:53.200 their permission. No, how did he respond? It was a wake-up call for him and he made 00:22:53.284 --> 00:22:56.771 some pretty big lifestyle changes as a result. Like what? 00:22:56.855 --> 00:23:00.029 And so I started waking up regularly at about 5 a.m. 00:23:00.113 --> 00:23:04.257 on work days to go to the gym to do 45 minutes of cardio every day. 00:23:04.340 --> 00:23:08.796 He started waking up an hour earlier than usual to exercise before work. 00:23:08.879 --> 00:23:12.516 Kind of seeing on a day-to-day basis what your recovery is, 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:17.434 what your sleep score is. It's kind of like a daily report card of your health 00:23:17.517 --> 00:23:21.154 and well-being. And, you know, very motivating in that way. 00:23:21.237 --> 00:23:25.945 He was really focused on his sleep and recovery. And he's watching his diet. 00:23:26.029 --> 00:23:28.846 So if I eat clean and healthy, then, you know, 00:23:28.929 --> 00:23:31.640 the recovery score usually is a lot better. 00:23:34.340 --> 00:23:38.000 and a lot of high-sodium food, the recovery score will be lower. 00:23:38.510 --> 00:23:41.875 And what is his whoop age? Well, about a year later, 00:23:41.958 --> 00:23:46.981 his whoop age is now 35. Congratulations, Kevin. You're back in your 30s. So, 00:23:47.065 --> 00:23:51.057 okay, so if he went from a 44-year-old whoop age to 35 years, 00:23:51.140 --> 00:23:55.656 That's pretty impressive. If we are to believe that the whoop age actually means 00:23:55.739 --> 00:23:59.566 something. Right. Which is a significant caveat here. But, you know, 00:23:59.649 --> 00:24:04.337 he does feel healthier and he's doing this in part for his kids to be a more active 00:24:04.421 --> 00:24:07.155 dad and to hopefully live longer eventually, too, 00:24:07.238 --> 00:24:10.400 because of these significant lifestyle changes he made. 00:24:10.760 --> 00:24:14.637 That is so interesting because I'm going to bet that like your husband, 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:19.266 he probably knew that those changes would be good for himself before he had a whoop 00:24:19.349 --> 00:24:23.839 and a whoop age. And yet it took the whoop and the whoop age to actually influence 00:24:23.923 --> 00:24:28.078 his behavior. Yeah, that's right. And I think that's similar to some of what 00:24:28.161 --> 00:24:32.261 the NANET CEO was pushing around the company and the sort of specificity of 00:24:32.344 --> 00:24:36.360 the data that they offer and the recommendations tailored to your child. 00:24:40.760 --> 00:24:46.086 that the advice then that he got from this app and from this product felt really 00:24:46.170 --> 00:24:51.563 meaningful because it was tailored to his activities and all the information he'd 00:24:51.647 --> 00:24:55.282 been sort of feeding the device over a couple of weeks. 00:24:55.366 --> 00:25:00.640 And I think that's the difference in why this advice might feel more powerful. 00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:03.507 That actually makes a lot of sense when you think about the fact that, like, 00:25:03.590 --> 00:25:05.970 Just as an example, people pay personal trainers, right? 00:25:06.053 --> 00:25:09.137 And it's not necessarily because they don't know what the exercises are, 00:25:09.220 --> 00:25:12.216 or that they need somebody to like make sure their posture is correct, 00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:15.427 they don't hurt themselves. A lot of times it's just if you pay somebody, 00:25:15.510 --> 00:25:18.989 you will actually show up to the gym. So it sort of sounds like there's something 00:25:19.073 --> 00:25:22.068 about getting tailored specific information that makes you think like, 00:25:22.152 --> 00:25:24.927 oh, I really got to do something as opposed to just hearing like, 00:25:25.011 --> 00:25:27.261 people should eat more fruits and vegetables. 00:25:27.560 --> 00:25:31.598 Yeah, I think that's right. And it was seeing Kevin change his habits and talk 00:25:31.681 --> 00:25:35.613 about the whoop and his whoop age that convinced my husband to join the sort 00:25:35.697 --> 00:25:39.576 of the cult around this product. You're kind of answering my question here. 00:25:39.659 --> 00:25:42.165 How do you feel about him joining the cult? Like, 00:25:42.248 --> 00:25:45.494 does he talk about it incessantly, his own whoop age now? Well, 00:25:45.577 --> 00:25:49.245 I think the weirdest thing is that whoop has really entered the chat of 00:25:49.328 --> 00:25:51.940 our relationship. If we are going out with friends, 00:25:52.023 --> 00:25:55.880 let's say we have a great evening, maybe we've had a couple of cocktails. 00:25:57.560 --> 00:26:01.433 sort of lamenting, oh, man, like drinking is never a good idea. 00:26:01.517 --> 00:26:06.332 Look at my numbers. Kind of similarly, if you have a decadent meal or if sleep 00:26:06.415 --> 00:26:11.168 didn't go great one night, I'm then left looking at his whoop recovery score. 00:26:11.251 --> 00:26:16.129 He's opening the app and showing me. And it kind of gives me anxiety. I'm like, 00:26:16.213 --> 00:26:21.279 oh, my God, his score is not very good. Now you're worrying about his whoop score. 00:26:21.363 --> 00:26:24.440 It sounds like such a bummer. It sounds like such 00:26:27.560 --> 00:26:31.395 hey, oh my gosh, we didn't sleep great, we didn't eat great, 00:26:31.479 --> 00:26:36.685 we had a little too much fun last night, and here are the numbers to show for it. 00:26:36.769 --> 00:26:38.140 But on the flip side, 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:43.606 When you get a great night of sleep or you eat very well or you've had some great 00:26:43.689 --> 00:26:44.522 habits. 00:26:44.840 --> 00:26:49.720 The Whoop's positive feedback feels like a reward, a blessing, if you will. 00:26:49.803 --> 00:26:52.499 And I think that's what they're going for. 00:26:52.582 --> 00:26:57.197 It sounds like Whoop is basically just wagging its finger at you. Yeah, 00:26:57.280 --> 00:27:02.226 but with the really tailored metrics and data. Oh, great. How fun. You know, 00:27:02.309 --> 00:27:07.453 I can't help but notice, though, Sepna, that these two stories that you told me 00:27:07.537 --> 00:27:11.192 today – Even though they involve people who really love their data, 00:27:11.275 --> 00:27:14.767 whether it's like you and the nanet and your kid or your husband, 00:27:14.850 --> 00:27:17.050 they're not going to be able to do that. 00:27:17.210 --> 00:27:21.775 It also feels like there's some kind of tradeoff because like somebody in these 00:27:21.859 --> 00:27:24.306 stories is getting kind of annoyed by this, 00:27:24.389 --> 00:27:28.719 whether it's your mother or maybe even you. Is that how you see it? I mean, 00:27:28.802 --> 00:27:33.447 I think there is this tension right now between people who sort of subscribe to. 00:27:33.530 --> 00:27:38.745 this data making their lives better and being worth collecting and being the way 00:27:38.829 --> 00:27:43.183 of the future. And those who say, you know, what's the point? Like, 00:27:43.267 --> 00:27:48.659 do we need any of this? Should we brick our phones and unplug and do this less? 00:27:48.742 --> 00:27:53.236 And I think it's a tension that exists in our society writ large. 00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:58.234 And I'm really curious to see if these companies who are trafficking in 00:27:58.318 --> 00:28:03.022 this world are right and that this is the way of the future and that 00:28:03.105 --> 00:28:08.514 this conversation will seem trite when we all have libraries of data from zero 00:28:08.597 --> 00:28:09.430 to 100. 00:28:14.870 --> 00:28:20.384 learning about how AI can be used to interpret all of this information. 00:28:20.467 --> 00:28:26.927 We know that AI thrives on data. And here we are collecting reams and reams of data 00:28:27.011 --> 00:28:32.446 around how we breathe in the case of a baby, but also walk, move, eat, 00:28:32.529 --> 00:28:37.964 sleep. What kinds of information, recommendations will we get from all 00:28:38.048 --> 00:28:42.931 of that? How could this affect us as we age? I mean, right now, 00:28:43.014 --> 00:28:44.670 one thing that really 00:28:44.870 --> 00:28:49.424 me as I was researching this, I talked to a researcher who had been studying people 00:28:49.508 --> 00:28:53.447 using wearables and all of these smartwatches and Aura rings and whoops. 00:28:53.530 --> 00:28:57.749 And she was saying that what they have found largely is the people optimizing 00:28:57.833 --> 00:29:00.375 their wellness are those that are already well, 00:29:00.459 --> 00:29:05.069 which made me laugh because it did make me think about a lot of the people in my own 00:29:05.152 --> 00:29:08.924 life who are using this technology. But, you know, on the other hand, 00:29:09.007 --> 00:29:11.410 there are some pretty amazing breakthroughs 00:29:14.870 --> 00:29:19.279 early onset Parkinson's or different things related to the heart. 00:29:19.362 --> 00:29:24.186 And so as people live longer, have more of this information, who knows, 00:29:24.269 --> 00:29:29.991 maybe some of this data could be much more meaningful than just a sleep score or how 00:29:30.075 --> 00:29:32.770 you should exercise one day or another. 00:29:33.860 --> 00:29:38.254 I want to come back to something that you said earlier that I have just been 00:29:38.337 --> 00:29:42.437 thinking about this entire conversation that I think is so interesting, 00:29:42.520 --> 00:29:46.561 which is this idea that all of this, even given all of these benefits, 00:29:46.644 --> 00:29:50.920 that we are losing some part of our intuition and our ability to listen to 00:29:51.003 --> 00:29:55.751 our instincts. Because we are living in an age right now where one of the dominant 00:29:55.834 --> 00:29:59.917 stories is... is AI in some ways taking away from our humanity? 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.308 sort of wonder like how you as a person who is covering this and living this 00:30:04.391 --> 00:30:09.046 and using this, how are you weighing all of those benefits that you just mentioned 00:30:09.129 --> 00:30:12.917 and all of those unknown benefits potentially against what your mom 00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:16.117 is concerned about, right? This is just like making us 00:30:16.200 --> 00:30:21.259 less of what makes us people. Yeah, I think that's the big question here. 00:30:21.343 --> 00:30:25.058 And I feel a lot of concern around that. I mean, 00:30:25.141 --> 00:30:29.489 is technology dulling our instincts, our senses, really? 00:30:29.573 --> 00:30:35.583 And and that's why I was so interested in this subject around babies and baby 00:30:35.666 --> 00:30:39.860 monitors, because to me, becoming a parent felt very. 00:30:40.290 --> 00:30:43.353 universal, like I was engaging in something ancient, 00:30:43.436 --> 00:30:47.770 something humans have been doing literally since the beginning of humans. 00:30:47.853 --> 00:30:52.852 And here I was being presented with all of these new tools in which to do this thing 00:30:52.935 --> 00:30:57.571 that people have been doing forever. And, you know, what did that mean for me, 00:30:57.654 --> 00:30:59.530 for people like me, for people? 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:01.840 generations around us. 00:31:04.220 --> 00:31:07.771 I think all of this technology raises the question, 00:31:07.854 --> 00:31:12.047 are we giving up something meaningful, something superhuman, 00:31:12.130 --> 00:31:16.394 something very us when we engage with it, when we turn to it, 00:31:16.477 --> 00:31:18.900 when we outsource decisions to it? 00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:22.890 you And I see with the growth of these technologies, 00:31:22.973 --> 00:31:27.802 with the ambitions of these companies, these are questions that we will all be 00:31:27.885 --> 00:31:30.530 grappling with increasingly in the future. 00:31:36.430 --> 00:31:40.130 Sepna, Maheshwari, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. 00:31:40.620 --> 00:31:45.475 you can read more from Sapna Maheshwari and all of our business reporters on 00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:50.479 the New York Times app if you don't already have the app we wanted to let you 00:31:50.562 --> 00:31:55.742 know that if you download it right now you'll get access to all of our journalism 00:31:55.826 --> 00:31:58.100 free for one month so give it a try 00:32:00.510 --> 00:32:07.510 we'll be right back 00:32:15.550 --> 00:32:19.398 Here's what else you need to know today. President Trump told the U.N. 00:32:19.481 --> 00:32:23.216 General Assembly in New York that he had a decision to make on Iran, 00:32:23.300 --> 00:32:27.260 to strike a deal with Tehran or, quote, annihilate the Islamic Republic. 00:32:27.343 --> 00:32:31.415 Do I drive them into hell with no chance of survival and no hope of future 00:32:31.499 --> 00:32:36.132 greatness or generations? His threat amid a defense of the war he launched alongside 00:32:36.216 --> 00:32:40.120 Israel in February came as allies have begun to openly question whether 00:32:40.203 --> 00:32:42.730 the United States remains a credible partner. 00:32:44.910 --> 00:32:48.904 And the Trump administration has ejected more than 750,000 people from 00:32:48.987 --> 00:32:52.806 the Affordable Care Act insurance marketplaces, Vice President J.D. 00:32:52.889 --> 00:32:57.698 Vance announced on Tuesday, claiming that many were receiving premium subsidies they 00:32:57.781 --> 00:33:01.192 did not qualify for and that some people were not even real. 00:33:01.276 --> 00:33:06.143 We're actually making sure that the people receiving Obamacare subsidies are actually 00:33:06.226 --> 00:33:10.070 entitled to receive them. Amazingly, we weren't doing that before. 00:33:21.710 --> 00:33:25.026 Today's episode was produced by Diana Wynn and Alex Stern, 00:33:25.109 --> 00:33:28.190 with help from Ricky Nobetsky and edited by Lisa Chow. 00:33:28.273 --> 00:33:32.058 It contains music by Marian Lozano, Rowan Nemisto, and Dan Powell, 00:33:32.141 --> 00:33:35.950 and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Wonderly. 00:33:52.090 --> 00:33:55.510 That's it for The Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.