1 00:00:01,010 --> 00:00:05,310 From the New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily. 2 00:00:10,470 --> 00:00:14,087 More and more people are wearing technology. Fitness bands, 3 00:00:14,170 --> 00:00:18,289 smart rings, biometric shirts. These devices help track everything, 4 00:00:18,372 --> 00:00:22,052 from their heart rate to even the temperature of their skin. 5 00:00:22,135 --> 00:00:27,090 The latest frontier? Health tech for babies. And it's being supercharged by AI. 6 00:00:30,750 --> 00:00:35,115 tells us about her family's experience with all of this health tracking 7 00:00:35,198 --> 00:00:38,310 technology. And we discuss whether it's helping us, 8 00:00:38,393 --> 00:00:41,150 just adding to our anxieties, or maybe both. 9 00:00:45,530 --> 00:00:47,910 It's Wednesday, September 23rd. 10 00:00:55,020 --> 00:00:59,135 Okay, so Sapna, as you know, we are here today to talk about not just wearable 11 00:00:59,218 --> 00:01:03,064 technology, but all kinds of technology that helps you track health data. 12 00:01:03,148 --> 00:01:06,637 And I just want to lay my cards out on the table and say that I... 13 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,580 don't use any of this stuff. I don't have an Apple Watch. 14 00:01:09,663 --> 00:01:13,763 I don't use an Oura ring. I'm very much of the mindset that I don't need to spend 15 00:01:13,846 --> 00:01:17,791 $300 on some kind of piece of jewelry that's going to tell me that if I drink, 16 00:01:17,874 --> 00:01:21,302 I won't sleep very well. So do you think by the end of this episode, 17 00:01:21,386 --> 00:01:24,711 I will realize the error of my ways or will I be more set in them? 18 00:01:24,794 --> 00:01:27,499 Great question. I don't know how you're going to feel, 19 00:01:27,583 --> 00:01:31,785 but I can tell you that I never thought I would be using a bunch of this technology 20 00:01:31,869 --> 00:01:36,000 or that my family would. And it all kind of crept into my life. How so? So I'm a 21 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,904 And when my first kid was born about four years ago, 22 00:01:39,987 --> 00:01:44,490 I was looking for a baby monitor. And at that time, as I did my research, 23 00:01:44,574 --> 00:01:49,600 everyone kept recommending this monitor called the Nanit. The Nanit, okay. Okay. 24 00:01:49,770 --> 00:01:54,429 And tell us what the Nana does. So the Nana is a baby monitor that hooks up 25 00:01:54,512 --> 00:01:57,780 to your home Wi-Fi and lives as an app on your phone. 26 00:01:57,863 --> 00:02:02,711 It's kind of like the eye of Sauron. It's grabbing data from the video footage 27 00:02:02,795 --> 00:02:05,493 and logging. The webs for the eye of Sauron? 28 00:02:05,577 --> 00:02:09,603 Is that really what you want, watching your baby? Well, you know, 29 00:02:09,687 --> 00:02:13,334 you might not think so at first, but it was pretty amazing. 30 00:02:13,417 --> 00:02:17,590 So you open this app and the app is tracking the baby's movements. 31 00:02:19,770 --> 00:02:24,562 when they woke up, when they fell asleep, it can see when their eyes open and close. 32 00:02:24,645 --> 00:02:28,682 It's looking at all of these movements and sleep patterns of your baby, 33 00:02:28,765 --> 00:02:32,628 and then it's putting it into this digestible format for any parent. 34 00:02:32,712 --> 00:02:37,445 So my husband and I would open the app and we would look at the insights tab and we 35 00:02:37,528 --> 00:02:41,159 would see, okay, how many times did we visit our baby overnight? 36 00:02:41,243 --> 00:02:45,106 How many hours of sleep did she get? How many times did she wake up? 37 00:02:45,189 --> 00:02:46,930 And when she woke up, how long 38 00:02:49,770 --> 00:02:52,941 So from this app, you can check on your baby from anywhere, 39 00:02:53,025 --> 00:02:57,134 whether you're at home or at the grocery store or maybe even at your office. 40 00:02:57,217 --> 00:03:01,547 And one of the things that hooked us on this app was the video camera would make 41 00:03:01,630 --> 00:03:05,740 these cute montages of these moments of greeting our daughter in the morning 42 00:03:05,823 --> 00:03:08,663 and this look of joy on her face as we picked her up. 43 00:03:08,747 --> 00:03:12,194 And the Nanette is just one of many of these baby tech products. 44 00:03:12,277 --> 00:03:15,228 There's a really big rival of Nanette called the Owlet, 45 00:03:15,311 --> 00:03:18,290 and that tracks a baby's pulse through a sock. A sock. 46 00:03:19,770 --> 00:03:23,928 Oh, wow. There's a sensor in the sock. There's an app that tracks feedings 47 00:03:24,012 --> 00:03:26,565 and diaper changes. And with that information, 48 00:03:26,648 --> 00:03:30,921 markets an AI chatbot to parents who want to understand their baby's habits. 49 00:03:31,005 --> 00:03:35,278 There's monitors that send alerts to parents when their baby's face might be 50 00:03:35,361 --> 00:03:37,310 covered in the crib and on and on. 51 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,851 And across the board, I would say these apps are feeding off parents anxiety, 52 00:03:46,934 --> 00:03:50,051 their questions, the sort of persistent. Is this normal? Yeah. No, 53 00:03:50,135 --> 00:03:53,834 this is so interesting just because I just had dinner with a couple of friends 54 00:03:53,917 --> 00:03:57,956 of mine and the husband was saying that he couldn't sleep with his newborn because he 55 00:03:58,039 --> 00:04:00,526 was so worried that the newborn would stop breathing. 56 00:04:00,609 --> 00:04:02,853 And he kept checking in the middle of the night. 57 00:04:02,937 --> 00:04:06,345 And the only thing that allowed him to sleep was it turned out he bought 58 00:04:06,428 --> 00:04:10,321 a nanette because he was like, OK, I can sleep because this thing will alert me if 59 00:04:10,405 --> 00:04:11,555 my kid stops breathing. 60 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,953 because I'll get woken up if there's a problem. Yeah, definitely. 61 00:04:17,036 --> 00:04:21,674 And I think that's the running theme with all of these products is they tap into 62 00:04:21,757 --> 00:04:26,159 a new parent's desire for more sleep. Anyone with an infant knows that sleep 63 00:04:26,242 --> 00:04:29,877 is sort of this holy grail when you have an infant in the home. 64 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,185 And there's a lot of other anxieties that they promised to sort of solve. 65 00:04:34,268 --> 00:04:38,670 And I noticed this really with my second child when we bought another Nanit, 66 00:04:38,753 --> 00:04:40,760 that it started incorporating more 67 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,489 giving me feedback on what happened or monitoring them, 68 00:04:46,572 --> 00:04:50,658 but it was now giving me actual advice. I mean, including, you know, 69 00:04:50,741 --> 00:04:55,685 when they should sleep next or, you know, how we should interpret different things 70 00:04:55,769 --> 00:04:58,628 that they're doing in their crib. And of course, 71 00:04:58,711 --> 00:05:03,472 all of these products are trying to sell you the advice with a subscription fee 72 00:05:03,555 --> 00:05:08,254 a lot of the time. And it started raising these questions for me around, okay, 73 00:05:08,337 --> 00:05:11,280 when should we trust our own instincts versus if 74 00:05:11,370 --> 00:05:16,372 artificial intelligence when it comes to decision making around our kids' health? 75 00:05:16,455 --> 00:05:21,456 And on top of that, how should we think about AI when it comes to our own health? 76 00:05:21,540 --> 00:05:26,165 So as I was marketed all of these different forms of advice on how to watch 77 00:05:26,248 --> 00:05:31,187 over my child, I decided I wanted to know more about this company whose products 78 00:05:31,270 --> 00:05:35,790 stare at my kids all night. And it turns out it has way bigger ambitions 79 00:05:41,370 --> 00:05:43,693 at the Nana office in New York. Well, yeah, 80 00:05:43,776 --> 00:05:47,610 I loved learning more about what Nana's up to. And what did you learn? 81 00:05:47,694 --> 00:05:51,919 What did she tell you about the company? So Selena sees a lot of potential in 82 00:05:52,003 --> 00:05:56,452 the data that Nana is collecting and the insights that they can give parents over 83 00:05:56,536 --> 00:06:00,650 time. So 90% of a child's brain develops between the ages of zero and five. 84 00:06:00,733 --> 00:06:05,294 That's when their brain is most plastic. And yet kids are going to the pediatrician 85 00:06:05,378 --> 00:06:09,604 basically once a year for a checkup. 22 minutes is the average amount of time 86 00:06:09,687 --> 00:06:11,030 that that checkup lasts. 87 00:06:11,370 --> 00:06:14,721 And yet children are sort of developing every single day. Obviously, 88 00:06:14,804 --> 00:06:18,509 we both know this having two young kids. And so we have this infrastructure 89 00:06:18,592 --> 00:06:22,398 and opportunity to unlock this black box. That's the first five years of life 90 00:06:22,481 --> 00:06:23,390 that exists today. 91 00:06:23,610 --> 00:06:27,971 And the message that Nana is pushing is that there is a black box around 92 00:06:28,054 --> 00:06:31,612 this stage of a child growing as they develop motor skills, 93 00:06:31,696 --> 00:06:35,624 as they learn to talk, as they engage with the world around them. 94 00:06:35,707 --> 00:06:38,587 So why isn't there more information around this? 95 00:06:38,670 --> 00:06:42,352 And what they're saying is Nana can provide that information. 96 00:06:42,435 --> 00:06:46,611 We have the measurements every single day of what's happening. Right. 97 00:06:46,694 --> 00:06:47,990 So the power of that. 98 00:06:53,610 --> 00:06:58,432 a kid's overall health and development. And investors see that potential as well. 99 00:06:58,515 --> 00:07:01,459 Nanette just raised another $50 million last year, 100 00:07:01,543 --> 00:07:06,425 and its CEO says that with more data, the company can help parents ultimately make 101 00:07:06,508 --> 00:07:10,785 better decisions for their kids. People have questions every single day, 102 00:07:10,868 --> 00:07:14,902 multiple times a day. Is this normal? Should my child be doing this? 103 00:07:14,986 --> 00:07:19,565 How do I handle that? Her argument is, if you look at modern parenting today, 104 00:07:19,648 --> 00:07:22,010 people are Googling. They're turning to 105 00:07:23,610 --> 00:07:28,309 chat GPT. Sure. What she's saying and what Nana is saying is this device 106 00:07:28,392 --> 00:07:33,489 is collecting this personalized, really specific information about your child. 107 00:07:33,573 --> 00:07:38,869 And so Nana has this advantage in giving you advice or information or helping you 108 00:07:38,952 --> 00:07:43,319 track milestones that are very specific to your child. For example, 109 00:07:43,402 --> 00:07:48,450 if you are trying to see, you know, what is it normal for a child to walk or 110 00:07:53,610 --> 00:07:57,789 between the age of this and this, your child should be expected to walk, 111 00:07:57,872 --> 00:08:01,281 very general. Right. If you're going to Claude or wherever, 112 00:08:01,365 --> 00:08:03,945 that's the information that they have, right? 113 00:08:04,029 --> 00:08:06,668 It's like the range of normal is this to this. 114 00:08:06,752 --> 00:08:11,345 We have all the information that's been captured every single day that can help 115 00:08:11,428 --> 00:08:16,140 you understand what's right for your child and also what's right for your family, 116 00:08:16,223 --> 00:08:21,112 right? So is there something Nana could do by looking at my baby in the crib to tell 117 00:08:21,196 --> 00:08:24,367 me that like crawling maybe... 118 00:08:24,450 --> 00:08:28,798 I don't know, around the corner or like talking maybe around the corner for her 119 00:08:28,881 --> 00:08:29,714 specifically. 120 00:08:31,020 --> 00:08:33,480 Yeah, that's on the horizon for us. Really? Yeah. 121 00:08:33,630 --> 00:08:38,862 And I think there is a real conviction from the company in that this kind 122 00:08:38,945 --> 00:08:43,595 of information will help parents sleep better, have less anxiety, 123 00:08:43,678 --> 00:08:48,837 give them this extra resource that is almost a disadvantage to not have. 124 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,443 And she even imagines that parents will keep nanets in their kids' bedroom to 125 00:08:54,527 --> 00:08:55,910 the age of 10. Wow. 126 00:09:03,630 --> 00:09:08,027 really starting to wear Apple Watches and things like that until around age 10, 127 00:09:08,111 --> 00:09:10,636 for the most part, sometimes a little younger. 128 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:15,030 So we really think of that 0 to 10 as Nana's kind of the place that we lift. 129 00:09:15,870 --> 00:09:20,490 Okay, keeping cameras in a child's bedroom until they're 10 years old... 130 00:09:20,910 --> 00:09:23,003 Maybe some kids are totally fine with this, 131 00:09:23,086 --> 00:09:26,850 but I can also imagine some kids really not liking that and not liking being 132 00:09:26,933 --> 00:09:29,970 surveilled. Maybe that's not healthy for them. I don't know. 133 00:09:30,780 --> 00:09:34,476 Yeah, I mean, it doesn't really happen so much today. So total experiment. 134 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,612 I could see a lot of kids really not being okay with this. But on the other hand, 135 00:09:38,696 --> 00:09:42,800 you know, the CEO of Nanit is saying, we are going to keep this device in my kid's 136 00:09:42,883 --> 00:09:46,528 room for longer. Her own kid. Her own kids. And so let's see how it goes. 137 00:09:46,611 --> 00:09:50,664 Okay, but what about like privacy issues, like irrespective of how the kid feels? 138 00:09:50,748 --> 00:09:54,801 Like what is Nanit saying that it's doing with all that data that it's collecting 139 00:09:54,884 --> 00:09:56,997 by having a camera in the kid's room? Yeah, 140 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,927 so this is a really big point because obviously parents, 141 00:10:00,010 --> 00:10:02,687 are really careful about what they... 142 00:10:02,770 --> 00:10:08,190 put around their children. Understandably. Understandably. And so Nanit says that it 143 00:10:08,290 --> 00:10:11,958 does not sell the data to anyone else. It doesn't target ads against it. 144 00:10:12,041 --> 00:10:16,386 Not yet. Not yet. They say that they won't and that the subscription fee that they're 145 00:10:16,470 --> 00:10:19,460 charging customers is proof that the customer and the baby, 146 00:10:19,543 --> 00:10:23,784 that is not the product. They're charging that money so they can offer all of these 147 00:10:23,868 --> 00:10:27,900 insights and information to the user. What's that phrase they say in technology 148 00:10:27,983 --> 00:10:32,224 that when the product is free, you are the product and when it costs something like 149 00:10:32,308 --> 00:10:34,569 a subscription, then you are not the product. 150 00:10:34,652 --> 00:10:37,830 So that sort of makes sense to me and what I understand about 151 00:10:38,290 --> 00:10:41,357 data. Yeah, that's right. And that's what the company would say here. 152 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,750 Safna, after you did this interview with the CEO, obviously, 153 00:10:44,833 --> 00:10:49,444 as a mother of two children, did that help you weigh the cost-benefit analysis just 154 00:10:49,527 --> 00:10:52,724 about whether you should have this in your own home? Yeah, 155 00:10:52,807 --> 00:10:56,626 it did help me see some of the benefits and look at how they're using 156 00:10:56,709 --> 00:11:00,472 this information, how it could help me in the future. But, you know, 157 00:11:00,555 --> 00:11:04,430 some people in my own life have also pointed out some of the drawbacks 158 00:11:04,514 --> 00:11:08,559 and disadvantages of using this sort of technology, namely my own mother, 159 00:11:08,642 --> 00:11:09,660 Mother Maheshwari. 160 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:16,590 What were her objections? Many. When you install the app on my phone, 161 00:11:16,673 --> 00:11:22,657 I was shocked. You know, I am just like horrified, but I guess I have to accept. 162 00:11:22,740 --> 00:11:28,193 I have to take the parents' instruction. So the first time my mom watched 163 00:11:28,276 --> 00:11:32,819 my daughter overnight, I installed the Nana app on her phone. 164 00:11:32,903 --> 00:11:38,735 It started sending me messages. Your baby was tended, you know, that time ago, 165 00:11:38,818 --> 00:11:39,880 the baby moved 166 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:46,466 this is too much. It was stressing me. Now I'm looking at the monitor and thinking, 167 00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:50,037 God, I have to watch this thing. I don't think I liked it. 168 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,237 I don't know how you guys put up with that. Because 169 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,960 She was shocked by the constant flow of information. 170 00:11:57,043 --> 00:12:02,760 She didn't understand why she was getting these push notifications from this app. 171 00:12:02,843 --> 00:12:06,698 One day I put it on my phone and my phone battery died. 172 00:12:06,781 --> 00:12:11,495 I didn't realize the whole night was on and maybe it was in charge. 173 00:12:11,578 --> 00:12:17,020 In the morning, I woke up and I said, oh, my God, what has happened to baby? 174 00:12:17,860 --> 00:12:23,294 And I woke up and I was like charged into her room. I said, "Oh my God, 175 00:12:23,377 --> 00:12:25,817 the baby must be crying." Thank you. 176 00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:30,900 You know, she was asleep. I probably would have heard without that monitor. 177 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,940 And it was such a shift from how she used to put my two siblings and me to sleep. 178 00:12:41,950 --> 00:12:45,005 So besides it being jarring and maybe overly stimulating, 179 00:12:45,088 --> 00:12:49,519 did your mom have like specific objections to the information that she was getting 180 00:12:49,602 --> 00:12:52,410 or the instructions that you were giving her about? 181 00:12:52,690 --> 00:12:57,539 this technology and how to use it? So my mom's of the camp that this kind 182 00:12:57,623 --> 00:13:02,404 of information gave us a sense that we could and should control a baby's 183 00:13:02,488 --> 00:13:07,472 environment to really optimize the sleep. What does that mean a little bit, 184 00:13:07,555 --> 00:13:09,650 optimize the sleep? Yeah, so... 185 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,491 Nana actually studies the optimal temperature that a baby can sleep at. 186 00:13:13,574 --> 00:13:16,338 It's one of the studies they're conducting right now. 187 00:13:16,421 --> 00:13:18,970 What is the optimal temperature for a baby? Well, 188 00:13:19,054 --> 00:13:21,334 they believe it's between 68 and 72 degrees, 189 00:13:21,417 --> 00:13:25,500 but they're finding out for sure. Okay. But it's also kind of lore in the... 190 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,439 the parenting world. I think you would probably find a lot of different sources 191 00:13:30,522 --> 00:13:34,863 that tell you that the temperature has to be between 68 and 72 degrees. 192 00:13:34,946 --> 00:13:38,041 And to my mom, this is a completely crazy behavior. 193 00:13:38,124 --> 00:13:42,589 Who does sleep at the room temperature? That's it is shocking. 68 degree? 194 00:13:42,672 --> 00:13:47,200 Oh my God. You must be kidding. Baby can sleep in any kind of temperature. 195 00:13:47,283 --> 00:13:48,280 Even I have seen 196 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,780 At least 100 degree, you know. Easy. 197 00:13:58,390 --> 00:14:03,725 Our baby slept just fine. So I think your mind has been conditioned by these 198 00:14:03,808 --> 00:14:06,227 monitors. what the temperature should be. 199 00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:10,510 So this is where, you know, this technology is teaching you. 200 00:14:10,990 --> 00:14:14,297 There are certain things that should be in certain ways, 201 00:14:14,380 --> 00:14:18,959 but I don't believe in that. She really believes that babies can sleep in all 202 00:14:19,042 --> 00:14:23,439 kinds of environments and that you're bringing a baby into your lifestyle. 203 00:14:23,522 --> 00:14:26,670 They will adjust, and that is just how parenting is. 204 00:14:27,010 --> 00:14:31,802 And my mom thinks this kind of information feeds this unhealthy obsession among 205 00:14:31,885 --> 00:14:36,492 modern day working parents. Now, oh, my God, bath routine, seven o'clock or, 206 00:14:36,575 --> 00:14:41,121 you know, and then you are on such a schedule. And I feel my wife feel, oh, 207 00:14:41,204 --> 00:14:46,119 my God, I have to do all these things. Then you have to put them in a sack or put 208 00:14:46,203 --> 00:14:48,835 them in there. You don't want to touch them. 209 00:14:48,918 --> 00:14:51,510 Once you drop them in the crib, that's it. 210 00:14:51,850 --> 00:14:55,489 It's all tied to these really strict schedules for our kids. 211 00:14:55,573 --> 00:14:58,778 And she's of the view that you can't optimize a baby. 212 00:14:58,861 --> 00:15:03,866 You can't optimize a little human being as much as adults maybe trying to optimize 213 00:15:03,949 --> 00:15:08,230 every facet of our diets and exercise and this and that. It's a baby. 214 00:15:08,530 --> 00:15:12,190 Babies are not robots. You still need to go with the, you know, 215 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:18,340 your instinct, baby's cue, and a bit relaxed about the whole thing. 216 00:15:18,490 --> 00:15:23,108 I think she just sees all of this as an unnecessary layer for what is perhaps 217 00:15:23,192 --> 00:15:27,710 the most universal of human experiences. Raising a child. Raising a child. 218 00:15:28,570 --> 00:15:32,001 Stephanie, you mentioned work and the idea that this technology helps working 219 00:15:32,084 --> 00:15:33,857 parents. And I do want to point out that 220 00:15:33,940 --> 00:15:37,302 I don't know how old your mother is, but there are a lot more women in 221 00:15:37,385 --> 00:15:40,285 the workforce now than a generation ago. And we know that, 222 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,929 Parenting disproportionately falls to women very often as opposed to men. 223 00:15:45,013 --> 00:15:48,496 But I do wonder, maybe in a little pushback to your mother, 224 00:15:48,579 --> 00:15:53,089 whether this technology is helping to balance out what is a gender imbalance 225 00:15:53,173 --> 00:15:57,683 in parenting by allowing, for example, both parents to sleep better at night 226 00:15:57,767 --> 00:15:59,580 instead of perhaps just being. 227 00:15:59,710 --> 00:16:00,543 The dad. 228 00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:05,447 Right. And I think this is something that came up a lot in my reporting around 229 00:16:05,531 --> 00:16:09,845 this story is this technology really appeals to a lot of folks because, 230 00:16:09,928 --> 00:16:13,870 you know, they may not have a great maternity or paternity leave. 231 00:16:13,954 --> 00:16:18,515 And they often have two working parents who have certain schedules. And so, 232 00:16:18,599 --> 00:16:23,532 you know, of course, there's going to be this desire to get the child to sleep at 233 00:16:23,615 --> 00:16:28,610 a certain time to have a schedule so that you can make that puzzle of life in 2026 234 00:16:28,694 --> 00:16:30,180 in America work for you. 235 00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:35,488 And I mean, it's true. My mom didn't work when she had us and she didn't have 236 00:16:35,571 --> 00:16:39,600 to adhere to this sort of work schedule while raising three kids. 237 00:16:39,683 --> 00:16:44,029 But her bigger concern is, you know, is our generation leaning so much 238 00:16:44,112 --> 00:16:48,887 on technology that we're replacing some of our human abilities, some of the. 239 00:16:48,970 --> 00:16:54,245 things that make us people. And I heard this concern echoed from a pediatrician I 240 00:16:54,328 --> 00:16:57,089 spoke with as well. And she said, you know, 241 00:16:57,173 --> 00:17:01,058 instead of tuning into what your baby is trying to tell you, 242 00:17:01,142 --> 00:17:06,483 observing them yourself, learning their little cues for when they're tired or when 243 00:17:06,566 --> 00:17:11,245 they need something from you, are we relying ultimately too much on apps 244 00:17:11,329 --> 00:17:15,430 and technology and chatbots? And where does that go from here? 245 00:17:16,930 --> 00:17:20,288 And of course, you know, we've been talking about babies, 246 00:17:20,371 --> 00:17:24,031 but this type of data collection, sleep scoring, optimization, 247 00:17:24,115 --> 00:17:28,620 these are all things that have been happening with adults for some time now, 248 00:17:28,703 --> 00:17:33,389 and it's only set to expand. With all of the advances we're now seeing with AI, 249 00:17:33,473 --> 00:17:38,280 we are in this new era of being encouraged to rely on this technology for some of 250 00:17:38,363 --> 00:17:42,710 the most personal decisions we can make about our health and our bodies. 251 00:17:42,940 --> 00:17:44,900 Thank you. Thank you. 252 00:17:49,060 --> 00:17:50,060 Thank you. 253 00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:54,260 Thank you. 254 00:17:57,790 --> 00:17:58,790 We'll be right back. 255 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,127 Okay, Sepna, so far we've only been talking about tracking and analyzing data 256 00:18:06,210 --> 00:18:10,067 for babies, but obviously a lot of adults like to track their own data, right? 257 00:18:10,151 --> 00:18:14,261 Like wearables are a huge market. Lots of people listening to this podcast probably 258 00:18:14,344 --> 00:18:18,454 use one or know somebody who does. So help me understand how big of a market it is. 259 00:18:18,537 --> 00:18:21,720 Like, I wonder if you have a way of quantifying it in some way. 260 00:18:21,970 --> 00:18:25,737 Well, let me tell you, basically half of Americans have one of these things 261 00:18:25,821 --> 00:18:29,486 that are tracking our health in some sort of way. God, half of Americans. 262 00:18:29,569 --> 00:18:32,926 That's right. Do you remember the Fitbit? I do remember the Fitbit. 263 00:18:33,009 --> 00:18:36,366 That was the thing that told you to take 10,000 steps a day, right? 264 00:18:36,449 --> 00:18:40,165 That's right. People suddenly bought Fitbits and now everybody was talking 265 00:18:40,248 --> 00:18:44,427 about their steps. Yes. So that has given way to a different world where now people 266 00:18:44,510 --> 00:18:47,559 are wearing smartwatches, but they're also wearing the Whoop. 267 00:18:47,642 --> 00:18:51,390 They're wearing the Aura. They're wearing all of these different devices. 268 00:18:51,970 --> 00:18:55,694 And they're way more sophisticated than just counting your steps. 269 00:18:55,778 --> 00:19:00,381 And it's interesting. I mean, Aura and Whoop are companies that could go public, 270 00:19:00,464 --> 00:19:05,009 that have been valued in the many billions of dollars. More broadly, wearables. 271 00:19:05,092 --> 00:19:09,227 And this market is approaching $100 billion, according to some analysts. 272 00:19:09,310 --> 00:19:13,503 And more and more people are using them to not just track their activity, 273 00:19:13,586 --> 00:19:16,783 but to get this AI-fueled advice on what they should do. 274 00:19:16,867 --> 00:19:19,210 Can you just give me an example of that? 275 00:19:21,970 --> 00:19:26,644 a Whoop or an Oura Ring that are more complicated or sophisticated that people 276 00:19:26,727 --> 00:19:30,548 might actually want? Yeah. So, I mean, it's tracking your sleep. 277 00:19:30,631 --> 00:19:35,610 And actually, funnily enough, it gives you a sleep score the same as Nana gives you 278 00:19:35,693 --> 00:19:40,489 for your baby. It can give you really detailed feedback on your exercise habits. 279 00:19:40,573 --> 00:19:45,330 And Whoop in particular offers something called a recovery score for its users 280 00:19:51,970 --> 00:19:55,897 based on a bunch of metrics. Stress, if you're feeling sick, 281 00:19:55,980 --> 00:19:59,937 how poorly you ate or how well you ate, how hard you worked, 282 00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:05,508 And then they shoot out this number that's supposed to tell you how ready your body 283 00:20:05,591 --> 00:20:10,407 is to take on the day. And just to be clear, these are consumer products, 284 00:20:10,491 --> 00:20:15,240 not medical devices. So this is a sort of label that Whoop came up with, 285 00:20:15,323 --> 00:20:18,973 but its users love it. Okay, but like, how does this actually help you? 286 00:20:19,056 --> 00:20:22,827 Because I can imagine that the advice this thing is giving you is probably advice... 287 00:20:22,910 --> 00:20:27,111 you kind of knew already? Like, what is it doing that common sense and the internet 288 00:20:27,194 --> 00:20:31,070 weren't already doing? Oh, Rachel, this is the Luddites perspective. 289 00:20:33,050 --> 00:20:36,958 Okay, so I mean, to be fair, I don't own one of these devices. 290 00:20:37,041 --> 00:20:40,240 I wear an Apple Watch. I use it more for the timer. 291 00:20:40,324 --> 00:20:45,197 I use it kind of to keep a loose eye on whether I exercise or moved or if I'm 292 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,544 traveling. Oh, wow, like look how many steps I made. 293 00:20:48,627 --> 00:20:51,634 But my husband recently started wearing a whoop. 294 00:20:51,717 --> 00:20:56,783 And so I've gotten kind of a closer look at these devices and how they can alter 295 00:20:56,866 --> 00:20:57,700 a person's 296 00:20:58,790 --> 00:21:02,896 a You know, doctors have been telling him to do this or that for years. 297 00:21:02,979 --> 00:21:06,993 But now that whoop tells him he actually listens. Yes, he does. Oh, my God. 298 00:21:07,076 --> 00:21:10,215 Wait. So what's that dynamic? Why is he listening to whoop? 299 00:21:10,299 --> 00:21:14,312 What is it telling him? So I wanted to talk to my husband for this episode, 300 00:21:14,396 --> 00:21:18,190 but he refused. So I did the next best thing and I decided to interview 301 00:21:18,274 --> 00:21:22,342 the friend who got him into the whoop. You are kind of whoop patient zero in 302 00:21:22,425 --> 00:21:23,259 our household. 303 00:21:24,290 --> 00:21:29,578 That is flattering, I guess you could say. Okay, tell us about the friend. 304 00:21:29,661 --> 00:21:33,570 So our friend Kevin Huang is a trader for a hedge fund. 305 00:21:33,653 --> 00:21:38,143 And so probably more than most people, he's obsessed with data. 306 00:21:38,226 --> 00:21:42,716 It felt like something that would jive with my own personality, 307 00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:45,630 kind of gamifying your health in a way. 308 00:21:45,860 --> 00:21:49,847 Last fall, he got a WHOOP after a bunch of his friends were talking up all of these 309 00:21:49,931 --> 00:21:51,531 metrics that the WHOOP collects. 310 00:21:59,210 --> 00:22:03,092 oh, well, how old are you and how old does your whoop think you are? 311 00:22:03,175 --> 00:22:07,757 And one of the things that got him hooked right away on this thing was something 312 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,556 called the whoop age. Okay, what is a whoop age? 313 00:22:10,639 --> 00:22:14,870 So it's this number that is such a good marketing gimmick for this device. 314 00:22:14,954 --> 00:22:19,185 And it's based on a bunch of things. It's based on your sleep performance. 315 00:22:19,269 --> 00:22:23,850 Performance is such an absurd word to use, but it is a common word now for this. 316 00:22:23,934 --> 00:22:28,573 It's based on your resting heart rate, the amount of activity you engage in every 317 00:22:28,657 --> 00:22:33,818 day. and Kevin, who is 37 at the time, did not score so hot. What did he score? 318 00:22:33,902 --> 00:22:35,550 How old was his whoop age? 319 00:22:35,930 --> 00:22:40,420 My first whoop age was actually 44, which was a bit of a shocking number. 320 00:22:40,503 --> 00:22:43,365 He said he was 44. Oh no, that's so much older. 321 00:22:43,448 --> 00:22:48,001 I don't think it's fair to put someone in a whole different decade without 322 00:22:48,084 --> 00:22:53,200 their permission. No, how did he respond? It was a wake-up call for him and he made 323 00:22:53,284 --> 00:22:56,771 some pretty big lifestyle changes as a result. Like what? 324 00:22:56,855 --> 00:23:00,029 And so I started waking up regularly at about 5 a.m. 325 00:23:00,113 --> 00:23:04,257 on work days to go to the gym to do 45 minutes of cardio every day. 326 00:23:04,340 --> 00:23:08,796 He started waking up an hour earlier than usual to exercise before work. 327 00:23:08,879 --> 00:23:12,516 Kind of seeing on a day-to-day basis what your recovery is, 328 00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:17,434 what your sleep score is. It's kind of like a daily report card of your health 329 00:23:17,517 --> 00:23:21,154 and well-being. And, you know, very motivating in that way. 330 00:23:21,237 --> 00:23:25,945 He was really focused on his sleep and recovery. And he's watching his diet. 331 00:23:26,029 --> 00:23:28,846 So if I eat clean and healthy, then, you know, 332 00:23:28,929 --> 00:23:31,640 the recovery score usually is a lot better. 333 00:23:34,340 --> 00:23:38,000 and a lot of high-sodium food, the recovery score will be lower. 334 00:23:38,510 --> 00:23:41,875 And what is his whoop age? Well, about a year later, 335 00:23:41,958 --> 00:23:46,981 his whoop age is now 35. Congratulations, Kevin. You're back in your 30s. So, 336 00:23:47,065 --> 00:23:51,057 okay, so if he went from a 44-year-old whoop age to 35 years, 337 00:23:51,140 --> 00:23:55,656 That's pretty impressive. If we are to believe that the whoop age actually means 338 00:23:55,739 --> 00:23:59,566 something. Right. Which is a significant caveat here. But, you know, 339 00:23:59,649 --> 00:24:04,337 he does feel healthier and he's doing this in part for his kids to be a more active 340 00:24:04,421 --> 00:24:07,155 dad and to hopefully live longer eventually, too, 341 00:24:07,238 --> 00:24:10,400 because of these significant lifestyle changes he made. 342 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,637 That is so interesting because I'm going to bet that like your husband, 343 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:19,266 he probably knew that those changes would be good for himself before he had a whoop 344 00:24:19,349 --> 00:24:23,839 and a whoop age. And yet it took the whoop and the whoop age to actually influence 345 00:24:23,923 --> 00:24:28,078 his behavior. Yeah, that's right. And I think that's similar to some of what 346 00:24:28,161 --> 00:24:32,261 the NANET CEO was pushing around the company and the sort of specificity of 347 00:24:32,344 --> 00:24:36,360 the data that they offer and the recommendations tailored to your child. 348 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:46,086 that the advice then that he got from this app and from this product felt really 349 00:24:46,170 --> 00:24:51,563 meaningful because it was tailored to his activities and all the information he'd 350 00:24:51,647 --> 00:24:55,282 been sort of feeding the device over a couple of weeks. 351 00:24:55,366 --> 00:25:00,640 And I think that's the difference in why this advice might feel more powerful. 352 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,507 That actually makes a lot of sense when you think about the fact that, like, 353 00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:05,970 Just as an example, people pay personal trainers, right? 354 00:25:06,053 --> 00:25:09,137 And it's not necessarily because they don't know what the exercises are, 355 00:25:09,220 --> 00:25:12,216 or that they need somebody to like make sure their posture is correct, 356 00:25:12,299 --> 00:25:15,427 they don't hurt themselves. A lot of times it's just if you pay somebody, 357 00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:18,989 you will actually show up to the gym. So it sort of sounds like there's something 358 00:25:19,073 --> 00:25:22,068 about getting tailored specific information that makes you think like, 359 00:25:22,152 --> 00:25:24,927 oh, I really got to do something as opposed to just hearing like, 360 00:25:25,011 --> 00:25:27,261 people should eat more fruits and vegetables. 361 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,598 Yeah, I think that's right. And it was seeing Kevin change his habits and talk 362 00:25:31,681 --> 00:25:35,613 about the whoop and his whoop age that convinced my husband to join the sort 363 00:25:35,697 --> 00:25:39,576 of the cult around this product. You're kind of answering my question here. 364 00:25:39,659 --> 00:25:42,165 How do you feel about him joining the cult? Like, 365 00:25:42,248 --> 00:25:45,494 does he talk about it incessantly, his own whoop age now? Well, 366 00:25:45,577 --> 00:25:49,245 I think the weirdest thing is that whoop has really entered the chat of 367 00:25:49,328 --> 00:25:51,940 our relationship. If we are going out with friends, 368 00:25:52,023 --> 00:25:55,880 let's say we have a great evening, maybe we've had a couple of cocktails. 369 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,433 sort of lamenting, oh, man, like drinking is never a good idea. 370 00:26:01,517 --> 00:26:06,332 Look at my numbers. Kind of similarly, if you have a decadent meal or if sleep 371 00:26:06,415 --> 00:26:11,168 didn't go great one night, I'm then left looking at his whoop recovery score. 372 00:26:11,251 --> 00:26:16,129 He's opening the app and showing me. And it kind of gives me anxiety. I'm like, 373 00:26:16,213 --> 00:26:21,279 oh, my God, his score is not very good. Now you're worrying about his whoop score. 374 00:26:21,363 --> 00:26:24,440 It sounds like such a bummer. It sounds like such 375 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,395 hey, oh my gosh, we didn't sleep great, we didn't eat great, 376 00:26:31,479 --> 00:26:36,685 we had a little too much fun last night, and here are the numbers to show for it. 377 00:26:36,769 --> 00:26:38,140 But on the flip side, 378 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,606 When you get a great night of sleep or you eat very well or you've had some great 379 00:26:43,689 --> 00:26:44,522 habits. 380 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:49,720 The Whoop's positive feedback feels like a reward, a blessing, if you will. 381 00:26:49,803 --> 00:26:52,499 And I think that's what they're going for. 382 00:26:52,582 --> 00:26:57,197 It sounds like Whoop is basically just wagging its finger at you. Yeah, 383 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,226 but with the really tailored metrics and data. Oh, great. How fun. You know, 384 00:27:02,309 --> 00:27:07,453 I can't help but notice, though, Sepna, that these two stories that you told me 385 00:27:07,537 --> 00:27:11,192 today – Even though they involve people who really love their data, 386 00:27:11,275 --> 00:27:14,767 whether it's like you and the nanet and your kid or your husband, 387 00:27:14,850 --> 00:27:17,050 they're not going to be able to do that. 388 00:27:17,210 --> 00:27:21,775 It also feels like there's some kind of tradeoff because like somebody in these 389 00:27:21,859 --> 00:27:24,306 stories is getting kind of annoyed by this, 390 00:27:24,389 --> 00:27:28,719 whether it's your mother or maybe even you. Is that how you see it? I mean, 391 00:27:28,802 --> 00:27:33,447 I think there is this tension right now between people who sort of subscribe to. 392 00:27:33,530 --> 00:27:38,745 this data making their lives better and being worth collecting and being the way 393 00:27:38,829 --> 00:27:43,183 of the future. And those who say, you know, what's the point? Like, 394 00:27:43,267 --> 00:27:48,659 do we need any of this? Should we brick our phones and unplug and do this less? 395 00:27:48,742 --> 00:27:53,236 And I think it's a tension that exists in our society writ large. 396 00:27:53,319 --> 00:27:58,234 And I'm really curious to see if these companies who are trafficking in 397 00:27:58,318 --> 00:28:03,022 this world are right and that this is the way of the future and that 398 00:28:03,105 --> 00:28:08,514 this conversation will seem trite when we all have libraries of data from zero 399 00:28:08,597 --> 00:28:09,430 to 100. 400 00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:20,384 learning about how AI can be used to interpret all of this information. 401 00:28:20,467 --> 00:28:26,927 We know that AI thrives on data. And here we are collecting reams and reams of data 402 00:28:27,011 --> 00:28:32,446 around how we breathe in the case of a baby, but also walk, move, eat, 403 00:28:32,529 --> 00:28:37,964 sleep. What kinds of information, recommendations will we get from all 404 00:28:38,048 --> 00:28:42,931 of that? How could this affect us as we age? I mean, right now, 405 00:28:43,014 --> 00:28:44,670 one thing that really 406 00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:49,424 me as I was researching this, I talked to a researcher who had been studying people 407 00:28:49,508 --> 00:28:53,447 using wearables and all of these smartwatches and Aura rings and whoops. 408 00:28:53,530 --> 00:28:57,749 And she was saying that what they have found largely is the people optimizing 409 00:28:57,833 --> 00:29:00,375 their wellness are those that are already well, 410 00:29:00,459 --> 00:29:05,069 which made me laugh because it did make me think about a lot of the people in my own 411 00:29:05,152 --> 00:29:08,924 life who are using this technology. But, you know, on the other hand, 412 00:29:09,007 --> 00:29:11,410 there are some pretty amazing breakthroughs 413 00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:19,279 early onset Parkinson's or different things related to the heart. 414 00:29:19,362 --> 00:29:24,186 And so as people live longer, have more of this information, who knows, 415 00:29:24,269 --> 00:29:29,991 maybe some of this data could be much more meaningful than just a sleep score or how 416 00:29:30,075 --> 00:29:32,770 you should exercise one day or another. 417 00:29:33,860 --> 00:29:38,254 I want to come back to something that you said earlier that I have just been 418 00:29:38,337 --> 00:29:42,437 thinking about this entire conversation that I think is so interesting, 419 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,561 which is this idea that all of this, even given all of these benefits, 420 00:29:46,644 --> 00:29:50,920 that we are losing some part of our intuition and our ability to listen to 421 00:29:51,003 --> 00:29:55,751 our instincts. Because we are living in an age right now where one of the dominant 422 00:29:55,834 --> 00:29:59,917 stories is... is AI in some ways taking away from our humanity? 423 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,308 sort of wonder like how you as a person who is covering this and living this 424 00:30:04,391 --> 00:30:09,046 and using this, how are you weighing all of those benefits that you just mentioned 425 00:30:09,129 --> 00:30:12,917 and all of those unknown benefits potentially against what your mom 426 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,117 is concerned about, right? This is just like making us 427 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:21,259 less of what makes us people. Yeah, I think that's the big question here. 428 00:30:21,343 --> 00:30:25,058 And I feel a lot of concern around that. I mean, 429 00:30:25,141 --> 00:30:29,489 is technology dulling our instincts, our senses, really? 430 00:30:29,573 --> 00:30:35,583 And and that's why I was so interested in this subject around babies and baby 431 00:30:35,666 --> 00:30:39,860 monitors, because to me, becoming a parent felt very. 432 00:30:40,290 --> 00:30:43,353 universal, like I was engaging in something ancient, 433 00:30:43,436 --> 00:30:47,770 something humans have been doing literally since the beginning of humans. 434 00:30:47,853 --> 00:30:52,852 And here I was being presented with all of these new tools in which to do this thing 435 00:30:52,935 --> 00:30:57,571 that people have been doing forever. And, you know, what did that mean for me, 436 00:30:57,654 --> 00:30:59,530 for people like me, for people? 437 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,840 generations around us. 438 00:31:04,220 --> 00:31:07,771 I think all of this technology raises the question, 439 00:31:07,854 --> 00:31:12,047 are we giving up something meaningful, something superhuman, 440 00:31:12,130 --> 00:31:16,394 something very us when we engage with it, when we turn to it, 441 00:31:16,477 --> 00:31:18,900 when we outsource decisions to it? 442 00:31:19,140 --> 00:31:22,890 you And I see with the growth of these technologies, 443 00:31:22,973 --> 00:31:27,802 with the ambitions of these companies, these are questions that we will all be 444 00:31:27,885 --> 00:31:30,530 grappling with increasingly in the future. 445 00:31:36,430 --> 00:31:40,130 Sepna, Maheshwari, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. 446 00:31:40,620 --> 00:31:45,475 you can read more from Sapna Maheshwari and all of our business reporters on 447 00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:50,479 the New York Times app if you don't already have the app we wanted to let you 448 00:31:50,562 --> 00:31:55,742 know that if you download it right now you'll get access to all of our journalism 449 00:31:55,826 --> 00:31:58,100 free for one month so give it a try 450 00:32:00,510 --> 00:32:07,510 we'll be right back 451 00:32:15,550 --> 00:32:19,398 Here's what else you need to know today. President Trump told the U.N. 452 00:32:19,481 --> 00:32:23,216 General Assembly in New York that he had a decision to make on Iran, 453 00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:27,260 to strike a deal with Tehran or, quote, annihilate the Islamic Republic. 454 00:32:27,343 --> 00:32:31,415 Do I drive them into hell with no chance of survival and no hope of future 455 00:32:31,499 --> 00:32:36,132 greatness or generations? His threat amid a defense of the war he launched alongside 456 00:32:36,216 --> 00:32:40,120 Israel in February came as allies have begun to openly question whether 457 00:32:40,203 --> 00:32:42,730 the United States remains a credible partner. 458 00:32:44,910 --> 00:32:48,904 And the Trump administration has ejected more than 750,000 people from 459 00:32:48,987 --> 00:32:52,806 the Affordable Care Act insurance marketplaces, Vice President J.D. 460 00:32:52,889 --> 00:32:57,698 Vance announced on Tuesday, claiming that many were receiving premium subsidies they 461 00:32:57,781 --> 00:33:01,192 did not qualify for and that some people were not even real. 462 00:33:01,276 --> 00:33:06,143 We're actually making sure that the people receiving Obamacare subsidies are actually 463 00:33:06,226 --> 00:33:10,070 entitled to receive them. Amazingly, we weren't doing that before. 464 00:33:21,710 --> 00:33:25,026 Today's episode was produced by Diana Wynn and Alex Stern, 465 00:33:25,109 --> 00:33:28,190 with help from Ricky Nobetsky and edited by Lisa Chow. 466 00:33:28,273 --> 00:33:32,058 It contains music by Marian Lozano, Rowan Nemisto, and Dan Powell, 467 00:33:32,141 --> 00:33:35,950 and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Wonderly. 468 00:33:52,090 --> 00:33:55,510 That's it for The Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.