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Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where
we revisit past episodes for the most

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potent and actionable science-based
tools for mental health, physical health,

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and performance.

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I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor
of neurobiology and ophthalmology

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at Stanford School of Medicine. And now
for my discussion with Dr. Gina Poe.

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Dr. Gina Poe, welcome. - Thank you.
- I've really been looking forward to

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this conversation. I know that many people
are going to be excited to learn about

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your work. as it relates to sleep, as it
relates to problem solving, creativity,

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and a number of other important topics.

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To start things off, I would love for you
to educate us a bit about this thing

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that we are all familiar with
and yet very few of us understand,

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which is sleep. Could you describe
the various phases of sleep that exist?

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What distinguished them? And perhaps...

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Frame this within the context of what
would a perfect night's sleep look like?

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All right. So sleep is really
different from wakefulness and, in fact,

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can't be replaced by any state of
wakefulness that we've been able to come

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up with so far. Our brain
chemistry is completely different.

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And in the different stages
of sleep, which there are,

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is non-REM and REM are
the two major states of sleep.

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Those two states are entirely
different from one another, too.

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And even within non-REM,
there are three states.

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falling asleep.

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There's kind of an interesting
rhythm that goes on in the brain.

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It's kind of a fast gamma rhythm.
And then there's stage two,

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which is a really cool state. We sort of
used to ignore sleep researchers because

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it was a transient state between
wakefulness and the deep stage three

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slow-wave sleep, which is the
most impressively different,

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which is when big slow waves
sweep through our brain,

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and now we realize
that it cleans our brain.

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One of the things that those big
slow waves do is cleans our brain

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us from a day of wakefulness.
And then REM sleep,

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which is the most popular because that's
where we have the most active dreams.

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When you wake up someone out of REM sleep,

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they'll almost always report having
dreamed something really bizarre.

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That's called REM sleep,
rapid eye movement sleep.

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So those are the four states
of sleep, of human sleep.

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And we cycle through them every 90 minutes
or so. And then we start over again.

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And we have about five of those
per night for a perfect night

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A perfect night's sleep
is seven and a half, eight hours.

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And what about the sleep
where we are lightly...

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asleep. And we might have a dream that has
us somehow thinking about movement or

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that we jolt ourselves awake. That often
happens early in the night. Yeah.

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Yeah. That's the first stage,
stage one and stage two of sleep.

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And stage two sleep is really cool because
that has something called sleep spindles

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and K complexes. And what sleep spindles
are, are a little of activity that's

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The gathalamus is the
gateway to consciousness,

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and the neocortex
processes all our cognition.

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And if you wake up out of that state,
you will often report a dream,

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like a hallucination-style dream. It won't
be a long dream report like you have out

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of REM sleep, but it will
be some hallucination state.

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Are they quite different than the patterns
of sleep and dreaming that occur later

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in the night or toward morning?

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processing. And in fact, if you've learned
something new that day or have experienced

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a new sensory motor experience, then
your early sleep dreams will incorporate

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that experience much more than
the later sleep dreams. Later,

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as that memory gets consolidated
from the early structures,

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which are the hippocampus deep
in the temporal lobe to the cortex in a

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distributed fashion, that memory seems to
move from that hippocampus to the cortex,

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and also the dreams that incorporate
that memory also move later in the night.

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So there was a great study by...

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Siddhartha Ribeiro, who studied
the consolidation of memories from

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the hippocampus to the cortex in a rat
across the period of a full period.

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day's sleep because rats
sleep in the daytime.

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And he found that each subsequent REM
sleep period moved that memory from

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the hippocampus to the first
area that projects to it,

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and then the second area,
and then the third area.

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And you can see the memory
moving throughout the sleep.

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There's a number of different hormones
associated with the different stages

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of sleep. We know that melatonin is a
hormone of nighttime that makes us sleepy.

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What about growth hormone release?
When does that occur during sleep?

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So growth hormone release happens
all day long and all night long.

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But the deep, slow-wave sleep that you get
the very first sleep cycle is when you get

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a big bolus of growth hormone
release in men and women equally.

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And if you miss that first

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deep slow asleep period you also miss
that big bolus of growth hormone release.

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And you might get ultimately across the
day just as much overall growth hormone

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release, but androchronologists will tell
you that big boluses do different things

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than a little bit eked out over time.
There's also a big push to synthesize

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proteins. So that's when

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the protein synthesis part that builds
memories for example in our brain happens

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in that first cycle of sleep.
So you don't want to miss that,

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especially if you've learned something
really big and needs more synaptic space

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to encode it. How would somebody
miss that first 90 minutes?

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Sleep depriving themselves. Yeah. So
let's say I normally go to sleep at 10 PM

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and then from 10 to 1130 would
be this first phase of sleep.

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And that's when the big bolus
of growth hormone would be released.

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Does that mean that if I go to sleep
instead at 1130 or midnight that I missed

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that

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I get that first phase of sleep.

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just simply starting later. Every cell
in our body has a clock and all those

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circadian clocks are synchronized
and so our cells are ready to

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respond to that growth hormone release
at a particular time. And if we miss it,

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and it's a time in relation to melatonin
also, so if you miss it, yeah,

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you might get some growth hormone release,

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but it's occurring at a time when your
clock has already moved to the next phase.

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And so... It's just a clock thing. So what
this means is that we should have fairly

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consistent bedtimes in addition
to fairly consistent wake times.

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Is that right? Exactly. And in fact, one
of the best markers of good neurological

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health when we get older
is consistent bedtimes.

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What other things inhibit growth hormone
release or other components of this first

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stage of sleep? Are there things that I
perhaps do in the preceding hours of

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the preceding day,
like ingest caffeine or alcohol,

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that can make that first
stage of sleep less effective,

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even if I'm going
to sleep at the same time?

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Alcohol definitely will do that because
alcohol is a REM sleep suppressant,

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and it even suppresses some of that stage
two transition to REM with those sleep

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spindles. And those sleep spindles,
we didn't talk about their function yet,

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to our cortex. It's a unique
time when our hippocampus,

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sort of like the RAM of our brains,
writes it to a hard disk,

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which is the cortex. And it's
a unique time when they're connected.

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So if you don't want to miss that,
you don't want to miss REM sleep,

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which is also a part of the
consolidation process. And alcohol,

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before we go to sleep, will do that. Until
we've metabolized alcohol and put it out

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of our bodies, it will
affect our sleep badly.

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90-minute blocks of sleep.
Is there anything that makes those unique?

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What is their signature, besides the fact
that they come second and third in

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the night? There's more and more
REM sleep the later the night we get.

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There's also a change in hormones, the
growth hormone and melatonin levels are

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starting to decline,
but other hormones are picking up.

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So it is a really different stage that you
also don't want to shortchange yourself

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on.

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times in sleep when the most creativity
can happen that's when our dreams can

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incorporate and put together old
and new things together into a new way

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and our schema are built during that time.

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So that's when your computer of your
brain is opening folders and comparing

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documents, seeing if
there is anything the same.

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These two documents
look very much the same,

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but there's a little bit of difference.
And it can it can link those conceptually

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so that that's probably one of the origins
of creativity is finding things that are

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related, maybe just linked a little bit
and you can find that link and strengthen

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it if it works. makes your schema
interesting and different. Many people,

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including myself, tend to wake up

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maybe once during the middle
of the night to use the restroom.

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I've tried to drink less
fluid before going to sleep.

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I've heard also the impulse to urinate
is also dictated by how quickly you drink

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fluid, not just the total volume. So I've
switched to sipping fluids more slowly

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for my last beverage of the day,
which seems to help.

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Is there any known detriment
to this middle of the night waking,

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or should we consider it a normal feature
for some people's sleep architecture?

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Yeah, I think we

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And so really don't worry about how much
you're sleeping as long as you're not

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intentionally depriving yourself of sleep
by doing something really rewarding

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and exciting because even that is
stressful to your body and deprives you

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of a lot of things we're talking about.
It's absolutely normal to wake up.

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at least once in the middle
of the night to go to the bathroom.

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And as long as you can get back
to sleep in a reasonable amount of time,

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or even if it takes you an hour,
don't worry about it.

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As long as you have a lifestyle that
allows you to then make up that sleep

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either the next morning or the next
night, going to bed a little earlier.

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What is unique perhaps about the
architecture of dreams and sleep in the,

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let's say the last third of the night
or the second half of the night?

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and those are... Considered the deepest
sleep, even though slow-wave sleep,

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big slow-wave is considered deep.
It is deep. Yeah,

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they call slow-wave sleep deep
sleep and REM sleep rapid-odemium,

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but now you're telling me that REM
sleep is actually the deeper sleep.

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The reason why you call slow-wave sleep
deep sleep is because it's difficult

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to arouse people out of that state. And
when you do arouse them out of that state,

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they're most often confused and just
want to go back into sleep and can go back

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pretty easily.

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really kind of almost like
wakefulness. It was so vivid.

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And maybe one of the reasons why REM
sleep is deeper is especially in adults

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and older people that deep slow wave
sleep goes away. So it's not as deep.

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It's not as big. The slow waves aren't
as large, which is probably problematic,

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but we are not sure. And so then
REM sleep becomes the deepest stage.

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We are paralyzed during
REM sleep, correct?

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dreaming storyline dreams
and we could hurt ourselves.

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We're actually really cut off from the
outside world in terms of responding to,

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say, this table or window or door.
And so different from sleepwalking,

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which is out of slow-wave sleep.
And out of slow-wave sleep,

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that sleepwalking is a mixture
between sleep and wakefulness.

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You can cook a full meal, drive your car
while you're in deep slow-wave sleep.

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It's scary because you never know
what you're going to do. You don't have

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over it. You have no conscious control
over it. But you can actually...

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safely navigate some situations
in sleepwalking and actually have

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a conversation, although it may not make
much sense when you're sleep talking.

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In REM sleep, you're not going to

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processing the outside world. And instead,
when you're acting out your dreams,

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you could be doing things like walking
through a plate glass window or falling

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off of, you know,
down the stairs, things like that.

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So you really want your muscles to be

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inactivated during REM sleep. Otherwise,
you will act out those dreams and really

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hurt yourself or your bed partner.

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So as I.

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people start to approach morning or the
time when they normally would wake up.

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I've heard that it's
important to, if possible,

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complete one of these 90-minute
cycles prior to waking up. That is,

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if you set your alarm for halfway through
one of these 90-minute cycles that come

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late in the night of sleep, that it can
lead to rather groggy patterns of waking.

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It's called sleep inertia.
When we wake up out of the wrong state,

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I liken it to a washing machine cycle.

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cycle. And the first part
is to add water, right?

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Then your clothes are soaking wet.
You don't want to open the washing machine

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and try and function, put them on and wear
them around while they're soaking wet

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and full of soap. So you have to wait
until the cycle is through before you can,

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well, actually, let's...

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Put it in the dryer, too, before you
want to wear them. So you can function.

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It just takes a little
while for those clothes,

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that brain to dry out so you
can actually function well.

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But it's better to wait through
the whole cycle is complete.

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So that's why you want to set that
90-minute alarm clock. And, again,

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that's around 90 minutes
because the first stage of sleep,

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the first cycle of sleep is actually a
little longer, more like 105, 110 minutes.

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second ones, and third ones. They get sort
of shorter and shorter as the night goes

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on. And in the last few cycles,
you're just doing the N2 REM sleep cycle,

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which takes less time.
And if you wake up out of REM sleep,

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there's usually no problem cognitively.
Are you a fan of sleep trackers? Yeah.

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Do you use one? I have one on. I don't
live my life by them because the best ones

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right now are about 70%

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okay, but take it with a grain
of salt is what I'm saying.

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Tell us a little bit more about the
washout that occurs in the brain during

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sleep and perhaps if there are any ways
to ensure that it happens or to ensure

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that it doesn't happen. And obviously
we want this to happen. Yeah.

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We talked about the circadian clock
and how certain things happen at certain

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times. Well, one of the things that
happens when we're awake and talking

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to each other is that there's a lot of,

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There's something that I'm learning from
you today and you're learning from me.

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And that changes our synapses and it
changes the way our proteins are

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processed. going to be folded
and changed during sleep.

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00:16:26,539 --> 00:16:30,167
This process actually uses
a lot of ATP, the power

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structure the fuel of the brain.
It unfolds also proteins while we're doing

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this, while we're using them. And so
during that first part of the night,

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when we first fall asleep
in the first 20 minutes or so,

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we're building that
adenosine back into ATP.

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And that's probably why power
naps are called power naps,

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because we're actually
rebuilding the power.

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And then we're also cleaning out through
the deep slow waves of slow-wave sleep.

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We're cleaning out all those
misfolded proteins, unfolded proteins,

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and other things that get
broken down and, you know,

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need to be rebuilt when we're asleep
because of its use during wakefulness.

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So I liken that to, you know,
having a big party during wakefulness,

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and you need all those party goers
to leave in order to do the cleanup.

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What happens when a neuron is firing?

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is that it expands.
The membrane expands a little bit.

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It becomes more translucent.
That's how we know,

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one of the ways we know that
neurons expand when they fire.

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And so every action potential, the
membrane expands a little bit as sodium

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brings water into the cell. And then
when they're silent, they contract.

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And so during slow waves, the cool thing
is that the reason why you can measure

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00:17:44,590 --> 00:17:48,081
them is that all the neurons
at the same time, not all of them,

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but a good portion of them, are firing at

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00:17:52,690 --> 00:17:57,572
So you think about that as contracting
and expanding all at the same time.

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It's kind of like a bilge pump
of the brain. So that can pump out.

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Glia are also really important
for this in terms of cleaning up debris

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and transferring it
to where it needs to go.

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So I think of it actually as a bilge pump.

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cleaning out our brain. Here you're
talking about literally an expansion and

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00:18:17,140 --> 00:18:22,157
a contraction of the neurons in unison and
pushing the fluid through cleaning out any

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00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,777
misfolded proteins or debris that might
occur on the basis of these metabolic

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pathways. And the consequence
of that is to what?

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To leave the brain in a state of more
pristine action for the next day?

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00:18:34,060 --> 00:18:37,337
Is that right? Yeah.
You think of it again like a party.

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And if you don't clean
up after that party,

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00:18:42,580 --> 00:18:47,364
get more clogged. You know, people have
a harder time moving around and enjoying

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00:18:47,447 --> 00:18:50,893
themselves. And if that builds
up day after day, you know,

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00:18:50,976 --> 00:18:55,699
it's going to be cognition. That would
be the party goers moving around becomes

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00:18:55,782 --> 00:19:00,445
hard. And so this bilge pump that you
describe is associated with the big slow

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waves of slow wave sleep. So this is going
to occur more or less in the first third

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of the night. Is that right? That's right.
And is this similar to the case

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00:19:12,580 --> 00:19:16,817
later than you would normally,
you miss the washout. You don't delay it.

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00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:19,757
You miss the washout.
That's right. That's right.

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00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,817
So if you go to sleep
at one or two in the morning,

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00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:26,537
your sleep is still going to be
dominated by N2 and REM sleep,

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not by slow wave sleep.

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00:19:28,930 --> 00:19:33,516
You need to get that first bit of sleep.
Would a caveat to that be if somebody

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00:19:33,599 --> 00:19:37,587
normally goes to sleep at 1 or 2 a.m.
and wakes up at 10 a.m.? Yeah.

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00:19:37,670 --> 00:19:41,178
If that's their normal sleep cycle.
Yeah. It should be okay.

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00:19:41,262 --> 00:19:45,967
Somebody would want to do a sleep study
with people who do that normally and see

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00:19:46,051 --> 00:19:50,577
if also the melatonin releases later
and the cortocosterone rise that happens

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00:19:50,660 --> 00:19:55,150
normally in the morning also happens
later. So if everything shifted, good.

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00:19:58,930 --> 00:20:02,861
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I'd love for you to tell us about
this incredible structure in the brain,

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00:21:18,156 --> 00:21:22,619
which is the locus coeruleus, and
hopefully tell us a little bit about its

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relationship to epinephrine,
aka adrenaline. Yeah.

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00:21:25,775 --> 00:21:30,546
So the locus coeruleus is filled with
neurons that have in them norepinephrine,

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00:21:30,629 --> 00:21:34,110
which is the brain's version
of epinephrine or adrenaline.

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00:21:34,193 --> 00:21:37,489
It's also called noradrenaline.
And what it does is it,

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00:21:37,573 --> 00:21:40,377
just like adrenaline
in the rest of our bodies,

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00:21:40,461 --> 00:21:43,410
it helps prime us to respond
to our environment.

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So when locus ceruleus neurons
fire and fire in a burst,

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we can switch our attention. And they
will fire in a burst if, for example,

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00:21:51,636 --> 00:21:55,809
a loud noise happens in the middle
of your concentrating on something.

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00:21:55,893 --> 00:22:00,431
It fires and it helps you switch your
attention to that thing and then learn

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00:22:00,514 --> 00:22:04,262
quickly from it. So it's really
important in a stress response.

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00:22:04,345 --> 00:22:08,883
It helps us do quick one-trial learning.
But just tonic levels are signature

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00:22:08,967 --> 00:22:10,730
of wakefulness and alertness.

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00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,951
So too much is panic with
the locus surrealist activity.

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00:22:15,034 --> 00:22:20,425
A burst is switching attention. And then
tonic levels are sustained constant

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00:22:20,509 --> 00:22:25,900
attention. And then when we go to sleep,
the locus surrealist slows and goes

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00:22:25,984 --> 00:22:26,920
from about...

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00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:32,686
on average um two hertz to about one hertz
one cycle per second tonically and then

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00:22:32,770 --> 00:22:38,480
when we go into REM sleep it's the only
time when it shuts off completely and it

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00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:43,540
appears that that complete silence
is really really important for a number

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00:22:43,623 --> 00:22:47,900
of things and the main thing
that I think it's important for is

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00:22:48,110 --> 00:22:52,767
the ability to erase and break down
synapses that are no longer working

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00:22:52,850 --> 00:22:56,038
for us. So they encode
things that are false now,

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00:22:56,121 --> 00:23:01,045
or they are encoding things that we
learned in the novelty encoding pathway

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00:23:01,128 --> 00:23:05,250
of our brain that have now been
consolidated to other pathways.

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00:23:05,334 --> 00:23:09,723
And so we need to now erase them
from the novelty encoding pathway.

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00:23:09,807 --> 00:23:12,210
And that is really, really important

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00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:22,716
or that I don't know, what do you call
those disks that you stick into computers?

348
00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:25,181
Thumb drives.
You're acing your thumb drives.

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00:23:25,265 --> 00:23:29,454
That thumb drive is what you carry around
all day long. And then during sleep,

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00:23:29,538 --> 00:23:33,673
you write that thumb drive to the cortex,
to the long-term memory structures,

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00:23:33,756 --> 00:23:38,165
and you need to refresh that thumb drive.
And that's what happens during REM sleep

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00:23:38,248 --> 00:23:41,945
when the locus surrealis is off.
And so if we're not able to do that,

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00:23:42,029 --> 00:23:45,780
we fill up that REM really quickly
or that thumb drive really quickly,

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00:23:45,863 --> 00:23:48,000
and we're not able to learn new things.

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00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:54,368
that are years past, if you're never
able to downscale that novelty encoding

356
00:23:54,452 --> 00:23:58,087
structure and purge it
from that traumatic memory,

357
00:23:58,170 --> 00:24:02,260
it will stay fresh and new
and then become maladaptive.

358
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:08,184
What approaches are you aware of that can
turn down the output of locus coeruleus

359
00:24:08,267 --> 00:24:13,381
during these phases of sleep and allow
late stages of sleep each night to have

360
00:24:13,464 --> 00:24:18,645
their maximum positive effect? Is there
anything that I can do besides avoiding

361
00:24:18,728 --> 00:24:21,843
serotonergic or neuroadrenergic
compounds? Well,

362
00:24:21,926 --> 00:24:27,174
I would also avoid anything just prior
to going to sleep that might excite those

363
00:24:27,257 --> 00:24:28,090
systems.

364
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:33,657
And...

365
00:24:33,740 --> 00:24:38,622
enter sleep with as much calm as you can.
So maybe deep breathing exercises.

366
00:24:38,705 --> 00:24:43,718
That's a beautiful way to calm your
sympathetic fight or flight system is deep

367
00:24:43,801 --> 00:24:49,010
breathing. And if there's a way you can
make your sympathetic nervous system calm

368
00:24:49,093 --> 00:24:53,845
down before you go to sleep, might be
for you meditation or deep breathing

369
00:24:53,928 --> 00:24:58,240
exercises. It might be for some,
a warm bath or a comforting book,

370
00:25:03,740 --> 00:25:07,085
which makes you feel happy
and calm is what you should do.

371
00:25:07,168 --> 00:25:10,867
And if you instead go to sleep
while you're anxious or hyped up,

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00:25:10,950 --> 00:25:15,832
then your sleep could become maladaptive.
I'd love for you to share with us a little

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00:25:15,915 --> 00:25:19,260
bit more about the spindles
that have come up a few times.

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00:25:19,343 --> 00:25:23,574
The density of our sleep spindles,
the number that we produce per minute,

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00:25:23,657 --> 00:25:27,120
is well correlated with our
intelligence in the first place.

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00:25:27,204 --> 00:25:31,967
And that no matter what your intelligence
is and no matter what your sleep spindle

377
00:25:32,050 --> 00:25:32,883
density is,

378
00:25:33,740 --> 00:25:37,218
something during the day and increase
your sleep spindle density,

379
00:25:37,302 --> 00:25:41,109
it's really almost perfectly correlated
with our ability to consolidate

380
00:25:41,192 --> 00:25:45,219
that information and incorporate it
into the schema that we already have in

381
00:25:45,302 --> 00:25:47,904
our brain. So if you try
and learn something new,

382
00:25:47,987 --> 00:25:50,972
even if your sleep spindle
density at baseline is great,

383
00:25:51,056 --> 00:25:55,017
if you don't increase your sleep
spindles that night, you're not going to

384
00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:57,960
you know, use sleep
to really incorporate it.

385
00:25:58,043 --> 00:26:03,192
One of the things we now know through
some great studies by Julie Seep and Anita

386
00:26:03,276 --> 00:26:07,902
Luthi is that sleep spindles are
accompanied by an incredible plasticity

387
00:26:07,985 --> 00:26:13,003
out in the distal dendrites, the listening
branches of our neurons that listen

388
00:26:13,087 --> 00:26:17,647
to other cortical areas. So there
are proximal dendrites in our neurons

389
00:26:17,731 --> 00:26:22,422
that listen to the external world
and are conducted through the thalamus.

390
00:26:22,505 --> 00:26:24,860
And then there are distal dendrites,

391
00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:29,625
listen to an internal kind of, you know,
conversation that's happening in

392
00:26:29,709 --> 00:26:33,602
our brains. It's kind of, you know,
our internal state, really.

393
00:26:33,686 --> 00:26:38,527
And during sleep spindles, that's when
those distal dendrites are able to best

394
00:26:38,610 --> 00:26:42,125
learn from other cortical
areas and from the hippocampus.

395
00:26:42,208 --> 00:26:46,671
It is during sleep spindles that the
hippocampus and the cortex are best

396
00:26:46,754 --> 00:26:50,269
connected and when that incredible
plasticity can happen.

397
00:26:50,352 --> 00:26:52,120
So when I talk about schema,

398
00:26:55,100 --> 00:27:00,848
of calcium into those distal dendrites
and where plasticity happens in just huge

399
00:27:00,932 --> 00:27:05,352
amounts. During that sleep- spindle
stage of sleep, which is N2 stage.

400
00:27:05,436 --> 00:27:09,556
There's another excitatory event
that comes all the way from the brainstem

401
00:27:09,639 --> 00:27:13,248
and projects everywhere in our cortex,
which is called PGO waves,

402
00:27:13,331 --> 00:27:17,565
which we should generalize to P waves
because they come from the pons and go

403
00:27:17,648 --> 00:27:21,200
to the thalamus and then the cortex
happens all over the brains.

404
00:27:21,283 --> 00:27:25,430
And that is where glutamate, which
is a major excitatory neurotransmitter

405
00:27:25,610 --> 00:27:29,995
involved in learning and plasticity
is being released in big amounts also

406
00:27:30,078 --> 00:27:35,137
in those distal dendrites. So P waves and
spindles work together to cause plasticity

407
00:27:35,220 --> 00:27:40,217
and sew our schema together, which could
be the origins for insight and creativity.

408
00:27:40,301 --> 00:27:44,869
Now, when P waves were first discovered,
it was thought to be random because

409
00:27:44,953 --> 00:27:49,460
this small area that generates P waves
all over the brain projects all over

410
00:27:49,543 --> 00:27:54,207
the thalamus and causes P waves all over.
And you don't Measure P waves

411
00:27:54,290 --> 00:27:57,081
all over the brain
at the same time. In fact,

412
00:27:57,164 --> 00:28:02,317
it just seems sporadic and random. And P
waves are also happening even more during

413
00:28:02,401 --> 00:28:07,363
REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep.
So that's why people think that REM dreams

414
00:28:07,446 --> 00:28:11,150
are so random is because these
P waves are random and they

415
00:28:11,270 --> 00:28:16,167
could generate dreams because they're
an internal source of excitation that kind

416
00:28:16,250 --> 00:28:20,836
of replaces the outside world during
our dream state. And so these P waves,

417
00:28:20,919 --> 00:28:25,131
if they are random, could be
the underlying reason why creativity can

418
00:28:25,214 --> 00:28:28,243
happen there is because
we're randomly activating,

419
00:28:28,327 --> 00:28:32,850
co-activating different things in our
brain that we can then sew together.

420
00:28:32,933 --> 00:28:37,083
But it might not be as random as we think.
So that's a caveat there.

421
00:28:37,166 --> 00:28:40,030
I'd like to take a quick
break and acknowledge

422
00:28:41,270 --> 00:28:44,861
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00:28:59,757 --> 00:29:04,281
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of creatine monohydrate to support muscle

428
00:29:04,364 --> 00:29:09,030
strength and performance, along with brain
health. Calcium HMB to support muscle

429
00:29:11,270 --> 00:29:14,606
and zinc carnosine to support
and improve the lining of your gut.

430
00:29:14,689 --> 00:29:18,762
Some of these ingredients I personally
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431
00:29:18,845 --> 00:29:22,496
formula, so it's great to see all
three of them now in the new AG1 Pro.

432
00:29:22,580 --> 00:29:26,600
As you may know, I've been taking AG1
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433
00:29:26,683 --> 00:29:30,703
That means I discovered it and started
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434
00:29:30,786 --> 00:29:35,121
what a podcast was. I continue to take it
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435
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436
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437
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438
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routine.
Just go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman.

439
00:29:55,950 --> 00:29:59,917
- So locus coeruleus is suppressed,
so we can't release norepinephrine.

440
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,105
and act out our dreams, this almost starts
to sound like a little bit of a built-in,

441
00:30:06,188 --> 00:30:09,199
while sleeping, trauma therapy. So please,

442
00:30:09,282 --> 00:30:14,660
if there's anything about locus
coeruleus and dreams that can help people

443
00:30:14,970 --> 00:30:18,612
basically extinguish traumas
or traumatic features to real life events.

444
00:30:18,695 --> 00:30:22,630
We definitely want to know about them.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think one of the

445
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,872
things that people thought
might help after a trauma,

446
00:30:25,955 --> 00:30:28,551
like a school shooting
or whatever, you know,

447
00:30:28,634 --> 00:30:31,766
car accident is to talk about it.
And in, but in fact,

448
00:30:31,849 --> 00:30:36,291
that ended up being counterproductive.
And I think one of the reasons why it

449
00:30:36,374 --> 00:30:40,041
was counterproductive is because
it didn't take them back down.

450
00:30:40,125 --> 00:30:43,971
It brought them up and continued
to reactivate the emotions of it,

451
00:30:44,054 --> 00:30:48,495
but then didn't emphasize the safety
effect that it's over or help them work

452
00:30:48,579 --> 00:30:50,960
through how they might avoid it again in

453
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,873
the sympathetic nervous system down
again before they went to sleep.

454
00:30:56,956 --> 00:31:01,029
And none of these studies has sleep
ever been considered. But to me,

455
00:31:01,112 --> 00:31:02,640
that's the key part is...

456
00:31:02,790 --> 00:31:07,314
bringing down your sympathetic nervous
system before you go to sleep so that

457
00:31:07,398 --> 00:31:12,104
your sleep can be adaptive, your locus
rilus can shut off like it normally does

458
00:31:12,187 --> 00:31:15,438
or should do, and then able
to erase the novelty of it.

459
00:31:15,522 --> 00:31:20,288
The other thing that I just mentioned
a minute ago was that the emotional system

460
00:31:20,372 --> 00:31:23,987
is highly activated in REM sleep,
and that's definitely true.

461
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:27,950
And that might seem counterproductive
in terms of the nightmares

462
00:31:32,790 --> 00:31:36,695
rather than reinforcing
the emotionality of the trauma.

463
00:31:36,779 --> 00:31:41,699
And I think the key to that, again,
is the absence of norepinephrine.

464
00:31:41,782 --> 00:31:47,211
So even though the emotional system
is in high gear, without norepinephrine,

465
00:31:47,294 --> 00:31:52,650
you can actually divorce those highly
activated emotions from the cognitive

466
00:31:52,733 --> 00:31:58,524
parts of the memory that you have just
written out in that N2 stage of sleep when

467
00:31:58,607 --> 00:32:00,710
the sleep spindles are going.

468
00:32:02,790 --> 00:32:07,386
the information that you'll need
to survive and to make that adaptive.

469
00:32:07,469 --> 00:32:10,410
And now you need
to divorce from that person

470
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:14,924
schema and from that semantic
parts of memory, the emotional part.

471
00:32:15,008 --> 00:32:19,717
Because whenever you remember something,
it's fine if you remember...

472
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,827
being emotional at the time, but you
don't want to bring back and so into

473
00:32:23,910 --> 00:32:28,162
that memory, all of the same emotional
systems. You don't want to bring back,

474
00:32:28,245 --> 00:32:31,878
you know, the heart rate changes
and the sweating and all of that.

475
00:32:31,961 --> 00:32:36,270
You want to be able to remember all
the parts of it and even remember that you

476
00:32:36,353 --> 00:32:40,211
were traumatized and that you did
cry and that you did have, you know,

477
00:32:40,294 --> 00:32:44,040
your heart was racing. But when
you're talking about it years later,

478
00:32:44,123 --> 00:32:45,080
you don't want to

479
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,778
memory because you're basically putting
yourself through the same trauma which

480
00:32:53,861 --> 00:32:57,787
is what people with PTSD have they don't
want to recall this traumatic memory

481
00:32:57,870 --> 00:33:02,004
because it's reliving it it's like it's
just happening again so that's what we're

482
00:33:02,087 --> 00:33:02,857
thinking is that

483
00:33:02,940 --> 00:33:08,317
the emotional parts are not able to be
divorced because the norepinephrine system

484
00:33:08,401 --> 00:33:10,760
is not downscaled during REM sleep.

485
00:33:11,820 --> 00:33:17,466
that REM sleep serves to instead reinforce
and in fact amplify the emotions because

486
00:33:17,550 --> 00:33:21,125
your emotional system is up,
locus surrealis is high,

487
00:33:21,208 --> 00:33:26,578
re-sewing in every night the emotionality
of those memories and with the memory

488
00:33:26,662 --> 00:33:31,894
itself. I must say you've taught us
a tremendous amount in a relatively short

489
00:33:31,977 --> 00:33:36,740
amount of time about the architecture
of sleep, the different phases,

490
00:33:41,820 --> 00:33:45,657
want to say thank you for taking the time
to sit down and have this conversation

491
00:33:45,741 --> 00:33:47,863
that so many people are
sure to benefit from.

492
00:33:47,946 --> 00:33:51,796
I know I speak for everybody when I say
thank you so much. Thank you so much.