WEBVTT 00:00:00.090 --> 00:00:02.570 This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. 00:00:03.510 --> 00:00:06.725 The Old Testament tells the story of King Saul, 00:00:06.808 --> 00:00:11.510 a ruler who was frequently gripped by waves of anguish and despair. 00:00:12.420 --> 00:00:17.639 When Saul was afflicted by such torments, his advisors didn't always call for 00:00:17.723 --> 00:00:22.942 a physician or a priest. Instead, they summoned a young shepherd named David, 00:00:23.025 --> 00:00:25.780 known for his skill at playing the lyre. 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:34.620 As the music began to play, King Saul's mind would settle and his mood would lift. 00:00:42.420 --> 00:00:45.010 Legend. Poetic. Symbolic. 00:00:45.120 --> 00:00:49.548 even mystical. But do they point to something real? Today, 00:00:49.632 --> 00:00:55.382 a growing body of scientific research suggests that music, painting, dance, 00:00:55.466 --> 00:00:59.038 and storytelling do far more than entertain us. 00:00:59.121 --> 00:01:03.083 They calm our nervous systems, reshape our emotions, 00:01:03.166 --> 00:01:06.200 and even influence our physical health. 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:14.406 This week on Hidden Brain, and in a companion story on Hidden Brain Plus, 00:01:14.490 --> 00:01:20.280 why the arts are no luxury, but rather a vital form of medicine for the mind. 00:01:29.670 --> 00:01:33.416 Think about the last time a piece of music stopped you in your tracks, 00:01:33.499 --> 00:01:35.768 or a novel kept you up late into the night, 00:01:35.851 --> 00:01:39.790 or a painting made you feel something you couldn't quite put into words. 00:01:40.260 --> 00:01:44.272 Why do these experiences feel so powerful? For a long time, 00:01:44.355 --> 00:01:49.131 scientists didn't have a clear answer. The arts seemed too subjective, 00:01:49.214 --> 00:01:54.420 too personal to study in any systematic way. But that's starting to change. 00:01:54.510 --> 00:01:58.646 At University College London, psychobiologist Daisy Fancourt has found 00:01:58.730 --> 00:02:02.504 that these moments are not just meaningful, they are measurable, 00:02:02.588 --> 00:02:07.350 and they can play a crucial role in our emotional and psychological well-being. 00:02:07.770 --> 00:02:10.090 Daisy Fancourt, welcome to Hidden Brain. 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:12.030 It's lovely to be with you. 00:02:13.200 --> 00:02:16.615 Daisy, as a young woman, you were very involved in music, 00:02:16.698 --> 00:02:20.910 singing and playing the piano. What did you notice about the emotional 00:02:20.993 --> 00:02:25.780 and psychological effects that music and the arts had on you and your friends? 00:02:26.190 --> 00:02:31.114 I feel really lucky because I was born into a family of professional musicians. 00:02:31.197 --> 00:02:35.234 So the arts were just so much a part of my day to day upbringing. 00:02:35.318 --> 00:02:40.178 I don't think I really reflected on what a privilege that is to have that kind 00:02:40.262 --> 00:02:42.290 of exposure at such a young age. 00:02:56.190 --> 00:03:00.309 friendships that I built early on they came through playing music with friends 00:03:00.393 --> 00:03:04.566 being in orchestras or bands or being involved in musical theatre so I think it 00:03:04.650 --> 00:03:08.230 was a lot more fundamental and foundational to me than I necessarily 00:03:08.314 --> 00:03:09.930 appreciated at that young age. 00:03:10.500 --> 00:03:14.820 *music* 00:03:16.200 --> 00:03:17.033 you 00:03:18.420 --> 00:03:21.235 I understand, Daisy, that while you were in college, 00:03:21.318 --> 00:03:25.749 you began working in a pediatric hospital. Tell me about this work, where it was, 00:03:25.833 --> 00:03:26.780 and what you did. 00:03:27.480 --> 00:03:31.593 It was an incredible programme that was open to students at Oxford University 00:03:31.676 --> 00:03:34.263 where I was studying. And alongside your studies, 00:03:34.346 --> 00:03:37.696 you could train to go and deliver arts programmes in hospitals. 00:03:37.779 --> 00:03:42.055 And it was something I just jumped at immediately because I was still fascinated 00:03:42.138 --> 00:03:45.543 by science and medicine and keen to find a way to blend the two. 00:03:45.626 --> 00:03:50.011 So we received training and then worked in paediatric hospital wards doing singing 00:03:50.094 --> 00:03:51.620 workshops with the children. 00:03:52.470 --> 00:03:57.200 And I was just completely blown away by the impact that I saw the singing having. 00:03:57.284 --> 00:04:00.528 I kind of expected it to be a nice bit of entertainment. 00:04:00.612 --> 00:04:05.104 But actually I was seeing directly that singing with children who were really 00:04:05.188 --> 00:04:09.562 anxious and crying and distressed would stop them crying and would actually 00:04:09.645 --> 00:04:11.190 completely calm them down. 00:04:12.210 --> 00:04:13.043 you 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:17.394 And I saw these amazing interactions between patients and their siblings, 00:04:17.477 --> 00:04:21.579 that actually music was providing this form of emotional and social connection 00:04:21.662 --> 00:04:25.389 for them, even in this very challenging and kind of often inhumane kind 00:04:25.472 --> 00:04:29.681 of environment of the hospital. So I was actually able to witness the benefits I 00:04:29.764 --> 00:04:32.340 hadn't really appreciated that music could have. 00:04:32.610 --> 00:04:33.443 you 00:04:38.340 --> 00:04:43.147 I understand that on one occasion you observed a premature baby in the hospital 00:04:43.230 --> 00:04:47.440 who was crying inconsolably and refusing to eat. Tell me that story. 00:04:48.750 --> 00:04:51.474 We were working in NICU, so neonatal intensive care units, 00:04:51.558 --> 00:04:55.057 with some of the parents and actually trying to help the mothers sing with 00:04:55.140 --> 00:04:58.639 their babies. And I remember this one child who was just crying and crying 00:04:58.723 --> 00:05:02.609 and the mother was really struggling and you could see it was really impacting her 00:05:02.692 --> 00:05:06.433 psychologically as well. But as soon as we started singing this lullaby and she 00:05:06.517 --> 00:05:08.564 started singing along with her baby as well, 00:05:08.647 --> 00:05:12.340 the baby's behaviour just completely changed and within a couple of minutes it 00:05:12.423 --> 00:05:13.773 was suddenly feeding again. 00:05:20.430 --> 00:05:24.443 I'm assuming that part of this might have also been that singing was calming the mom 00:05:24.526 --> 00:05:27.626 down, and perhaps that was also sending a signal to her child. 00:05:27.810 --> 00:05:28.567 Thank you. 00:05:28.650 --> 00:05:31.963 Absolutely. And this is something that we actually saw so many times across 00:05:32.046 --> 00:05:35.541 different wards, that often the parents were the ones who were the most anxious 00:05:35.624 --> 00:05:39.157 and really actually struggling the most with the situations they were in. 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:42.455 And actually giving them a way that they could engage and play and respond 00:05:42.538 --> 00:05:46.021 with their children through singing was something that was supporting that whole 00:05:46.104 --> 00:05:47.154 family unit together. 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:49.073 you 00:05:51.990 --> 00:05:57.387 Another time you saw a child being treated for burns. He was in severe pain. 00:05:57.471 --> 00:05:59.490 What did you observe, Daisy? 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:03.488 Well, after I finished college, I actually got a full time job working in 00:06:03.572 --> 00:06:05.995 our National Health Service. So working in hospitals, 00:06:06.078 --> 00:06:09.635 designing new arts programs. And one of the one of the wards we worked on was 00:06:09.719 --> 00:06:13.276 in the emergency department. And I remember there was a little boy who'd come 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:16.823 in who'd had really terrible burns and there was a delay in managing to get 00:06:16.906 --> 00:06:20.133 morphine to him. And he was calling out for pain relief. But actually, 00:06:20.216 --> 00:06:23.726 there was a theatre group that we had in the hospital and they started doing 00:06:23.810 --> 00:06:26.752 this performance for him in the emergency department. And again, 00:06:26.836 --> 00:06:29.336 it was just this complete change in his behaviour. 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:33.898 wasn't asking for pain relief. He was smiling and laughing along with what they 00:06:33.981 --> 00:06:37.711 were doing. And you could see that that distraction that had provided had been 00:06:37.794 --> 00:06:41.544 sufficient for him no longer to feel out of control in that pain situation. 00:06:42.300 --> 00:06:45.595 And was this theatrical production, was it aimed at children? 00:06:45.678 --> 00:06:47.340 Was it aimed at his age group? 00:06:47.730 --> 00:06:51.545 Yes, it was. It was from a wonderful group called Chicken Shed who specialised in how 00:06:51.629 --> 00:06:53.563 you could engage young people with the arts. 00:06:53.647 --> 00:06:56.682 And we brought them into the hospital. They'd specialised in working 00:06:56.766 --> 00:06:59.297 in disability art, but we brought them in and said, well, 00:06:59.380 --> 00:07:02.553 can we adapt this and develop programmes that would be really targeting 00:07:02.636 --> 00:07:06.222 the children who are in the hospital? And they delivered some amazing programmes 00:07:06.306 --> 00:07:07.706 across our paediatric wards. 00:07:08.310 --> 00:07:09.067 Amen. 00:07:09.150 --> 00:07:16.150 you 00:07:17.730 --> 00:07:21.845 So even as you were seeing the effects that the arts were having on patients, 00:07:21.928 --> 00:07:25.007 you were also noticing that among some of your colleagues, 00:07:25.090 --> 00:07:28.769 doctors and administrators, they saw this as a form of entertainment, 00:07:28.852 --> 00:07:32.531 not as a form of therapy. Can you talk about this disconnect that you 00:07:32.614 --> 00:07:33.650 experienced, Daisy? 00:07:34.530 --> 00:07:39.059 you Well, it was sort of a situation where if people didn't know what it was and you 00:07:39.142 --> 00:07:42.187 started describing it, it was sort of described as, oh, yeah, 00:07:42.270 --> 00:07:44.802 the hospital entertainment programme. But actually, 00:07:44.886 --> 00:07:48.443 I noticed that as soon as we started working closely with clinicians on 00:07:48.526 --> 00:07:51.110 their wards, they actually really started to get it. 00:07:51.193 --> 00:07:55.161 They started to see this impact, like we brought music onto the dementia wards. 00:07:55.244 --> 00:07:57.827 And immediately when we started playing these songs, 00:07:57.911 --> 00:08:01.109 there were these patients who couldn't remember their relatives, 00:08:01.192 --> 00:08:03.500 but were suddenly singing along word perfect. 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:08.734 looking up and noticing and then we were having these great conversations where we 00:08:08.817 --> 00:08:12.142 were saying well how can we use this how can we use this with the patients 00:08:12.225 --> 00:08:14.325 to support them whilst they're in hospital 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:21.040 So I was seeing these moment to moment transitions in how the arts were being 00:08:21.124 --> 00:08:25.244 perceived by the clinical staff as we started working more closely with them. 00:08:25.327 --> 00:08:29.338 But it was still at a stage where we didn't fully have the evidence to sort 00:08:29.422 --> 00:08:33.487 of say, well, that's because of these scientific studies that we were seeing 00:08:33.571 --> 00:08:37.472 the impact, but not always having those scientific papers to fall back on 00:08:37.556 --> 00:08:38.389 to explain it. 00:08:46.920 --> 00:08:47.753 all the time. 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:52.890 . you 00:08:53.460 --> 00:08:57.262 Daisy had seen that engagement with the arts was healing people and making them 00:08:57.345 --> 00:09:01.748 whole. When we come back, we follow Daisy as she becomes a researcher. 00:09:01.832 --> 00:09:06.603 She discovers why the arts have such striking effects and how to integrate them 00:09:06.687 --> 00:09:10.620 into the practice of medicine. You're listening to Hidden Brain. 00:09:10.740 --> 00:09:11.820 I'm Shankar Vedanta. 00:09:12.690 --> 00:09:14.750 you 00:09:21.870 --> 00:09:24.447 This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. 00:09:24.531 --> 00:09:29.398 After seeing firsthand the benefits of the arts in her own life and in the lives 00:09:29.481 --> 00:09:32.616 of her patients, Daisy Fancourt became a researcher. 00:09:32.699 --> 00:09:37.380 She started to generate hard scientific evidence for the benefits of the arts 00:09:37.464 --> 00:09:38.330 on our health. 00:09:39.810 --> 00:09:44.201 Over the past couple of decades, she and others have identified distinct ways 00:09:44.284 --> 00:09:47.167 in which the arts affect our bodies and our minds. 00:09:47.250 --> 00:09:48.083 you 00:09:49.140 --> 00:09:53.120 Daisy, you say that engaging with the arts can elevate our mood and increase 00:09:53.203 --> 00:09:56.488 our sense of well-being, not just in the moment, but over time. 00:09:56.572 --> 00:09:59.927 How is this happening, and do we understand the brain mechanism 00:10:00.010 --> 00:10:00.860 Lips behind this? 00:10:01.870 --> 00:10:06.101 It's actually one of the things people report the most when you ask them how they 00:10:06.184 --> 00:10:09.882 feel when they engage in the arts. They'll often say they feel happier. 00:10:09.966 --> 00:10:13.983 And we actually are really starting to understand more about the neuroscience 00:10:14.067 --> 00:10:16.700 of why this is. Because when we engage in the arts, 00:10:16.783 --> 00:10:20.907 we are essentially activating pleasure centres in the brain and reward networks 00:10:20.991 --> 00:10:25.275 like the dopaminergic system, which leads to the release of neurotransmitters like 00:10:25.358 --> 00:10:29.163 dopamine, which are involved in those feelings of happiness, of pleasure. 00:10:29.246 --> 00:10:31.110 And actually, we used to think that 00:10:31.870 --> 00:10:35.324 dopamine releases at the kind of peak moments of arts experiences, 00:10:35.407 --> 00:10:39.290 like if you're listening to a song and that chorus comes back and you have 00:10:39.373 --> 00:10:43.578 that kind of yes moment. But we also now know that you get those in anticipation 00:10:43.661 --> 00:10:47.061 of those moments. It's the build up to the return of that chorus. 00:10:47.145 --> 00:10:51.456 Or if you're reading a story, it's those moments when you're about to find out who 00:10:51.539 --> 00:10:55.101 the murderer is in a big detective novel, for example. And actually, 00:10:55.184 --> 00:10:57.810 that's why the arts are so effective at giving us 00:11:01.870 --> 00:11:06.008 tension and resolution and anticipating what might happen and seeing if we're 00:11:06.091 --> 00:11:09.187 right or having our expectations thwarted. So essentially, 00:11:09.271 --> 00:11:13.189 when we engage in the arts, we are giving our brains these repeated doses 00:11:13.272 --> 00:11:16.533 of dopamine. And that helps us to feel happier in the moment. 00:11:16.616 --> 00:11:20.151 But also over time, we see that the more regularly engaged we are, 00:11:20.235 --> 00:11:23.002 the higher the levels of our happiness that we have, 00:11:23.085 --> 00:11:27.168 the higher our life satisfaction. And particularly if we're getting involved 00:11:27.251 --> 00:11:28.085 in doing 00:11:31.870 --> 00:11:37.530 like our self-esteem, our sense of meaning and purpose and autonomy in our lives. 00:11:38.020 --> 00:11:41.009 Now, the arts evoke all kinds of different emotions. 00:11:41.092 --> 00:11:43.904 So we might watch a horror movie and feel scared, 00:11:43.987 --> 00:11:47.035 or we might listen to heavy metal and feel pumped up. 00:11:47.118 --> 00:11:51.820 How is it that these experiences can also produce feelings of happiness and peace 00:11:51.904 --> 00:11:55.838 when in some ways the experiences themselves might seem antithetical 00:11:55.921 --> 00:11:57.280 to happiness and peace? 00:11:58.150 --> 00:12:00.719 It's true. It feels like a paradox, doesn't it? 00:12:00.802 --> 00:12:04.725 That the idea you could watch a horror movie or read a really sad book, 00:12:04.809 --> 00:12:07.434 but somehow it's still good for your well-being. 00:12:07.517 --> 00:12:11.666 And the reason for this is that when we engage in arts and in, for example, 00:12:11.750 --> 00:12:14.036 sad or scary or shocking arts experiences, 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:17.930 we actually experience positive and negative emotions simultaneously. 00:12:18.013 --> 00:12:21.880 So if you experience those sad, scary or shocking events in real life, 00:12:21.964 --> 00:12:24.390 it would just be probably deeply traumatic. 00:12:28.150 --> 00:12:32.466 a little bit differently. So we've got a little bit of an aesthetic distance 00:12:32.549 --> 00:12:37.039 between us and that arts experience. And that distance means that we experience 00:12:37.122 --> 00:12:40.107 those emotions, but we don't have to respond to them. 00:12:40.190 --> 00:12:43.754 We don't have to change like the scary experience in our lives. 00:12:43.837 --> 00:12:46.822 We've not got to try and stop that fear. So actually, 00:12:46.905 --> 00:12:51.337 we get to contemplate it. That means our brains get to rehearse how they might 00:12:51.420 --> 00:12:55.530 regulate their emotions or think about how we might respond in the real 00:12:58.150 --> 00:13:00.558 do. And it's actually really good for us as well, 00:13:00.641 --> 00:13:02.744 because our brains are prediction machines. 00:13:02.827 --> 00:13:06.455 So when we engage in the arts, we're actually helping to expose ourselves 00:13:06.539 --> 00:13:10.167 to new situations that can help us navigate complex experiences when they 00:13:10.250 --> 00:13:13.166 come up in our real lives. And also that those experiences, 00:13:13.250 --> 00:13:16.014 even like listening to sad songs when we're feeling sad, 00:13:16.097 --> 00:13:19.420 it can give us a feeling of kind of authentic emotional connection, 00:13:19.503 --> 00:13:22.979 the feeling that other people might have experienced similar emotions, 00:13:23.062 --> 00:13:25.350 and that can also support us psychologically. 00:13:28.150 --> 00:13:30.210 you 00:13:32.560 --> 00:13:35.671 And perhaps this is why when people are really upset, 00:13:35.755 --> 00:13:40.614 sometimes they reach for sad songs, which would seem paradoxical because you would 00:13:40.697 --> 00:13:44.773 think that people would want to listen to songs that are happy songs. 00:13:44.856 --> 00:13:49.294 But very often we are looking for music that matches our internal emotional 00:13:49.377 --> 00:13:50.210 barometers. 00:13:51.590 --> 00:13:54.720 Exactly. And actually, sometimes it's through listening to those lyrics 00:13:54.803 --> 00:13:58.159 and songs or those melodies that we can start to understand our own emotions 00:13:58.242 --> 00:14:02.006 better. And that means we can then process them and be able to cope with them better, 00:14:02.089 --> 00:14:02.922 too. 00:14:09.760 --> 00:14:12.884 We had a guest on Hidden Brain recently, Colton Scrivner, 00:14:12.967 --> 00:14:17.160 who talked about the effects of watching horror movies or scary experiences. 00:14:17.243 --> 00:14:20.592 And he was studying the effects that these have on our minds. 00:14:20.676 --> 00:14:24.643 But as you're talking right now, I'm realizing that in some ways there's 00:14:24.727 --> 00:14:29.145 a parallel. When we watch a scary movie about a shark or a monster of some kind, 00:14:29.228 --> 00:14:31.760 in some ways it's a form of exposure therapy. 00:14:32.380 --> 00:14:36.860 It is. You see this most clearly with young children who might want to read 00:14:36.943 --> 00:14:41.483 a ghost story over and over again because their brains are practicing having 00:14:41.567 --> 00:14:45.134 that fear, managing that fear, being able to rationalize it. 00:14:45.217 --> 00:14:48.297 We're often really drawn to those scary experiences. 00:14:48.381 --> 00:14:53.286 But there is a kind of caveat here, which is some people like me hate scary films. 00:14:53.370 --> 00:14:57.020 And that's because actually we're forgetting that it is art. 00:15:02.380 --> 00:15:04.519 I lose that distance and I just get scared. 00:15:04.602 --> 00:15:08.291 So that is a kind of caveat here is that we have to be appreciating those 00:15:08.374 --> 00:15:12.580 experiences for art. And it's the same way why sometimes if we've listened to a lot 00:15:12.664 --> 00:15:15.164 of really sad songs when we're feeling sad, again, 00:15:15.247 --> 00:15:19.195 we can get drawn in just a little bit too much and actually find that it's not 00:15:19.278 --> 00:15:20.880 supporting us in the right way. 00:15:21.730 --> 00:15:26.750 Talk about the role of the arts in helping us to regulate our emotions, Stacey. 00:15:27.250 --> 00:15:31.702 When we engage in the arts, it can actually give our brain a kind of toolkit 00:15:31.785 --> 00:15:36.356 of ways of managing our emotions. So some of the time it can be that if we are 00:15:36.439 --> 00:15:38.922 painting or dancing or singing or drumming, 00:15:39.005 --> 00:15:42.621 then we're actually cathartically getting rid of our emotions. 00:15:42.704 --> 00:15:47.454 We might be venting them, for example, if we're feeling angry or expressing those 00:15:47.538 --> 00:15:48.887 moods through our arts. 00:15:48.970 --> 00:15:52.811 But there are also other times when actually it can be really helpful for us 00:15:52.894 --> 00:15:56.425 to distance ourselves from emotions in our lives. If we're doing arts, 00:15:56.508 --> 00:16:00.091 it can give us a chance to be really mindful and just focus on the arts 00:16:00.174 --> 00:16:03.498 and give our brains a break from stresses or worries in our lives. 00:16:03.582 --> 00:16:06.390 Or it can even give us that chance to think differently, 00:16:06.473 --> 00:16:08.713 to kind of reappraise what might be going on. 00:16:08.796 --> 00:16:12.482 Lots of people will have had the experience where you do something really 00:16:12.565 --> 00:16:13.399 creative. 00:16:18.970 --> 00:16:22.383 you actually find yourself thinking a bit differently about the world. 00:16:22.466 --> 00:16:25.829 And by the time you've finished, you actually think differently about 00:16:25.912 --> 00:16:28.326 the problem you might have had in the first place. 00:16:28.409 --> 00:16:32.471 So arts can be this amazing way of giving our brains lots of different ways that we 00:16:32.554 --> 00:16:36.354 can then contemplate or reassess or cope with challenges we might be facing. 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:41.922 I understand that one study in the U.S. induced negative emotions in people 00:16:42.005 --> 00:16:45.723 by asking them to think about a very sad event or showing them, 00:16:45.806 --> 00:16:48.740 you know, photographs of tragedies like, you know, 00:16:48.823 --> 00:16:52.058 funeral scenes or experiences of torture and suffering. 00:16:52.141 --> 00:16:55.520 Describe this experiment for me and what it found, Desi. 00:16:56.440 --> 00:16:59.032 This is a really interesting study that said, well, 00:16:59.115 --> 00:17:03.280 if we give people kind of puzzles or we tell them to draw shapes and copy things, 00:17:03.363 --> 00:17:06.741 then will that help to regulate their emotions, to calm them down, 00:17:06.825 --> 00:17:10.832 for example, or to de-stress them in a better or worse way than if we actually 00:17:10.916 --> 00:17:14.714 let them do creative things? And what they actually found is if people had 00:17:14.797 --> 00:17:18.385 that creative freedom, like they could draw freely or they could write 00:17:18.468 --> 00:17:20.588 expressively about what they were feeling, 00:17:20.671 --> 00:17:24.500 they actually helped to regulate their emotions much better, much faster. 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:30.305 creativity in the arts is one of the things that can really support us when 00:17:30.388 --> 00:17:33.095 we're feeling stressed or when we're feeling worried. 00:17:33.178 --> 00:17:37.411 I understand that you've seen something of this phenomenon firsthand when it comes 00:17:37.495 --> 00:17:38.600 to your own daughter. 00:17:39.430 --> 00:17:43.600 Well, I've got young children, and as any parents to young children will be able 00:17:43.683 --> 00:17:48.012 to attest, you see children really having to grapple with some big emotions and big 00:17:48.095 --> 00:17:52.265 experiences. And something I've noticed with my own kids is that if ever they're 00:17:52.348 --> 00:17:55.402 feeling worried about something or anxious about something, 00:17:55.485 --> 00:17:58.432 then just being able to hand them some paper and crayons, 00:17:58.515 --> 00:18:01.196 it's incredible how much they'll start to draw that. 00:18:01.280 --> 00:18:05.449 Sometimes it's sort of angry scribbling. Other times it's more cathartic drawing 00:18:05.533 --> 00:18:06.366 of calm shapes. 00:18:09.430 --> 00:18:13.811 So they're really young. But that just shows how innately young children are 00:18:13.895 --> 00:18:18.041 drawn to using the arts in a very organic way to support their emotions. 00:18:18.124 --> 00:18:21.037 And I think we can forget this as we become adults. 00:18:21.121 --> 00:18:25.854 We can forget that the arts can be such a powerful way of supporting our emotions. 00:18:25.938 --> 00:18:30.050 So I always think children are such an amazing example of this for us. 00:18:33.550 --> 00:18:38.530 So. *music* 00:18:39.460 --> 00:18:43.937 You've studied the effects of group singing on patients dealing with cancer. 00:18:44.020 --> 00:18:45.880 Tell me about this work, Daisy. 00:18:46.980 --> 00:18:50.610 I've looked at the effect that the arts can have in lots of different patient 00:18:50.693 --> 00:18:54.082 groups where actually we might have a medical treatment for the illness, 00:18:54.165 --> 00:18:57.410 but we might not have a solution for thinking about holistically what 00:18:57.493 --> 00:19:01.412 that person is experiencing. The work that I've done in cancer hospitals in the UK, 00:19:01.496 --> 00:19:05.367 we've looked at having choirs for people, which have been a way of bringing people 00:19:05.450 --> 00:19:09.273 together in a social setting where they might be able to find some social support 00:19:09.356 --> 00:19:12.906 and companionship and people who understand what they're going through. 00:19:16.660 --> 00:19:19.365 We've discovered through the studies that when we sing, 00:19:19.448 --> 00:19:23.116 we reduce our levels of stress hormones and we also reduce inflammation in 00:19:23.199 --> 00:19:26.512 our immune system, which is linked not just to our physical health, 00:19:26.596 --> 00:19:29.452 but also to feelings like depression, depressive symptoms. 00:19:29.536 --> 00:19:33.204 And we've also found that people can experience a real sense of confidence 00:19:33.287 --> 00:19:37.006 through the choirs if they are learning this new skill of singing together. 00:19:37.089 --> 00:19:41.213 They're putting on performances. We found through our research that patients who've 00:19:41.296 --> 00:19:45.015 been in the studies were saying that they'd felt that their self-esteem had 00:19:45.098 --> 00:19:45.960 taken a real hit. 00:19:46.660 --> 00:19:50.138 They'd been undergoing cancer treatment, but this was actually a way they were 00:19:50.221 --> 00:19:53.197 performing again. They were feeling more confident in their bodies, 00:19:53.280 --> 00:19:56.758 more confident socially, and it was helping them to navigate the psychological 00:19:56.841 --> 00:19:59.937 experience of cancer. I'm also reflecting on the 00:20:00.020 --> 00:20:02.535 that group singing involves singing in a group. 00:20:02.618 --> 00:20:04.857 So it's not just the music or the singing, 00:20:04.940 --> 00:20:07.760 it's probably helping patients connect with others. 00:20:08.660 --> 00:20:12.685 Very much so. And I think we see this across lots of different kinds of arts 00:20:12.768 --> 00:20:17.117 experiences. They can be this vehicle to us getting social interaction or physical 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.198 activity in dance, for example, or cognitive stimulation. 00:20:20.281 --> 00:20:23.549 So things that we already know are really good for our health. 00:20:23.632 --> 00:20:27.062 So the arts organically bring lots of those ingredients together. 00:20:27.146 --> 00:20:29.740 But the arts also do bring extra things as well. 00:20:38.660 --> 00:20:42.839 And I think it's the fact that the arts can combine all of those things into one 00:20:42.923 --> 00:20:45.800 experience that makes them so powerful for our health. 00:20:46.850 --> 00:20:48.910 you 00:20:52.910 --> 00:20:58.622 Now, of course, trying to express yourself in art requires a certain amount of craft 00:20:58.705 --> 00:21:04.279 and control. Talk a little bit about how engaging in the arts can give us feelings 00:21:04.362 --> 00:21:06.570 of mastery, feelings of control. 00:21:08.050 --> 00:21:11.686 This is something that many people can find challenging in their lives, 00:21:11.769 --> 00:21:15.352 is finding a way that they can feel that sense of mastery and control. 00:21:15.436 --> 00:21:19.281 And some people can get that through their work or through their home life, 00:21:19.364 --> 00:21:22.371 but there are plenty of people who don't actually get that, 00:21:22.455 --> 00:21:25.776 who can feel really disempowered in other aspects of their lives. 00:21:25.860 --> 00:21:29.862 But lots of studies have now shown that if we can engage in the arts and build 00:21:29.945 --> 00:21:33.790 artistic skills, even really simple things like learning to play a piece on 00:21:33.874 --> 00:21:34.707 the guitar, 00:21:37.250 --> 00:21:41.045 activity like do some knitting or crocheting or embroidery this can be 00:21:41.128 --> 00:21:45.699 a really good way of actually building our sense of ability our sense that we can do 00:21:45.782 --> 00:21:50.076 something our sense of mastery and this is one of the really core components of 00:21:50.159 --> 00:21:54.564 our well-being so it's a very important thing to make sure that we're cultivating 00:21:54.647 --> 00:21:58.830 but it can also then help us to build our belief in ourselves our feelings of 00:21:58.913 --> 00:22:03.290 our own self-efficacy or agency and these are really important life skills that 00:22:07.250 --> 00:22:10.114 to feel a sense that they're good at something creative, 00:22:10.198 --> 00:22:14.589 they've built up that skill, then that can help them to feel more confident that they 00:22:14.672 --> 00:22:17.063 could try a different skill in their lives. So, 00:22:17.146 --> 00:22:21.221 so many studies have shown that something as simple as joining a community arts 00:22:21.304 --> 00:22:25.064 group, for example, can lead to quite major life decisions like taking up 00:22:25.147 --> 00:22:29.011 another health behaviour or changing job or deciding to go out and find new 00:22:29.095 --> 00:22:32.990 friends, taking on challenges people haven't thought they could do before. 00:22:33.710 --> 00:22:37.870 *music* you 00:22:40.280 --> 00:22:44.140 You tell the story of a woman named Shay. Can you tell me her story, Daisy? 00:22:45.140 --> 00:22:48.195 She is an attorney who currently now lives in Houston, 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:52.729 and she is someone who describes to me that she had a really successful career 00:22:52.813 --> 00:22:56.914 as an attorney, but just wasn't feeling really fulfilled from that work. 00:22:56.998 --> 00:23:00.983 She describes her life as being kind of grey rather than technicolour. 00:23:01.066 --> 00:23:05.575 And she was really concerned about this, particularly as her mother became very 00:23:05.658 --> 00:23:09.237 unwell with developed cancer. And her mother was saying to her, 00:23:09.320 --> 00:23:12.987 I really want you to find that sense of fulfilment in your life. 00:23:13.070 --> 00:23:17.090 But Shay remembered being really happy through singing experiences when she 00:23:17.174 --> 00:23:21.686 was younger. So she took this big leap and she signed up to a week long music course 00:23:21.770 --> 00:23:24.641 at Berklee College, a kind of unconventional vacation. 00:23:24.724 --> 00:23:28.690 And she described to me how this was a complete turning point in her life, 00:23:28.773 --> 00:23:32.465 that that course made her feel so happy, built that sense of mastery, 00:23:32.549 --> 00:23:36.460 really changed her whole outlook on herself and what she could do as well 00:23:36.543 --> 00:23:40.782 as the rest of her life. So after that, she decided that she was going to shift 00:23:40.866 --> 00:23:42.890 her attorney work and still carry on. 00:23:43.070 --> 00:23:47.857 actually make much more space for music in her life and she started doing more singer 00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:52.555 songwriting work and even doing tours and now like years later she says that she's 00:23:52.638 --> 00:23:56.737 completely transformed that sense of well-being in her life she's managed 00:23:56.821 --> 00:24:01.149 to use music to sort of compensate and balance out the things that she wasn't 00:24:01.232 --> 00:24:05.904 getting through her work and I feel like Shay's story is such a universal one there 00:24:05.988 --> 00:24:10.170 are so many people who feel like their jobs are not giving them that full 00:24:13.070 --> 00:24:16.126 something as simple as developing an artistic hobby on the side could 00:24:16.209 --> 00:24:19.856 completely change that sense of balance in their lives and as a result their whole 00:24:19.940 --> 00:24:21.490 experience of their well-being. 00:24:31.850 --> 00:24:35.943 So given all these trends of research, I'm wondering if there's evidence that 00:24:36.026 --> 00:24:38.630 the arts can help to ward off depression, Daisy? 00:25:01.850 --> 00:25:05.887 epidemiologist. So my field of work involves using very large data sets, 00:25:05.970 --> 00:25:10.235 cohort studies that track tens of thousands of people over years and decades 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:13.669 of their lives. And actually, a lot of these cohort studies, 00:25:13.752 --> 00:25:18.361 which I analyse in the US and in the UK, have looked at people's arts engagements, 00:25:18.444 --> 00:25:22.195 and they've included lots of questions about their arts behaviours. 00:25:22.278 --> 00:25:26.715 So over the last 10 years, my team and I have been publishing dozens of papers, 00:25:26.798 --> 00:25:29.030 actually looking at how arts engagement 00:25:31.850 --> 00:25:36.037 over the following decades. And we found that people who engage regularly in 00:25:36.120 --> 00:25:39.914 the arts and have an artistic hobby actually have about half the risk 00:25:39.997 --> 00:25:43.959 of developing depression over the next 10 years. So you could say, well, 00:25:44.042 --> 00:25:47.724 are these people just healthier or wealthier or have other patterns 00:25:47.807 --> 00:25:50.701 of behaviours in their lives? But as epidemiologists, 00:25:50.785 --> 00:25:55.253 we use statistical methods to basically try and account for all the other factors 00:25:55.336 --> 00:25:58.370 that could explain this relationship. So demographics, 00:26:01.850 --> 00:26:04.281 of people's lives or even their past histories. 00:26:04.364 --> 00:26:08.025 And we've actually seen that this relationship is independent of these 00:26:08.109 --> 00:26:12.412 factors. In other words, arts engagement seems to act as this risk-reducing factor 00:26:12.495 --> 00:26:15.330 against the risk of developing future mental illness. 00:26:16.700 --> 00:26:19.445 Is it clear which way the arrow of causation runs, though? 00:26:19.528 --> 00:26:22.371 You could imagine that someone who is not feeling depressed, 00:26:22.454 --> 00:26:25.102 somebody who's feeling generally happy with their lives, 00:26:25.185 --> 00:26:28.905 might be willing to take up a paintbrush or try their hand at a singing choir, 00:26:28.988 --> 00:26:32.221 and somebody who is depressed might stay away from those activities. 00:26:32.304 --> 00:26:36.073 Do we know that it's the arts that is reducing the risk of depression or people 00:26:36.157 --> 00:26:39.257 with lower depression who might be more engaged with the arts? 00:26:39.500 --> 00:26:43.057 That is such an important question. And it's one that we've really been trying 00:26:43.140 --> 00:26:45.063 to disentangle. When we've run our studies, 00:26:45.147 --> 00:26:48.377 you're right that we have seen some what we call bidirectional effects. 00:26:48.460 --> 00:26:51.550 So it kind of goes both ways. But actually, we've been saying, well, 00:26:51.633 --> 00:26:55.377 which way is strongest? And actually, we tend to see that actually arts engagement 00:26:55.460 --> 00:26:59.210 has more of an influence on future mental health than the other way around. 00:27:09.500 --> 00:27:13.209 risk of depression. So therefore, we know that it's not simply your current 00:27:13.292 --> 00:27:16.596 depressive symptoms. And basically, through using lots of different 00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:20.641 statistical methods, we've actually been able to demonstrate that it is the arts 00:27:20.724 --> 00:27:23.472 engagement that is predicting future risk of depression, 00:27:23.556 --> 00:27:26.640 even when we've taken account of those bidirectional effects. 00:27:27.290 --> 00:27:32.386 I understand that some of this research has also looked at the idea that the arts 00:27:32.469 --> 00:27:35.199 might help us to hold off cognitive decline. 00:27:35.282 --> 00:27:39.630 Explain this idea to me and tell me about the work you've done here. 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:44.277 So when we engage in the arts, we're really giving our brains quite 00:27:44.360 --> 00:27:48.607 an effective whole brain workout. We're involving so many different regions of 00:27:48.690 --> 00:27:52.660 the brain that might be involved in the visual processing of sheet music, 00:27:52.743 --> 00:27:57.102 for example, or the motor response that's required or the memory or the emotions 00:27:57.185 --> 00:28:01.377 that are being activated. And what we've seen through a lot of studies now is 00:28:01.460 --> 00:28:04.208 that when people are regularly engaged in the arts, 00:28:04.292 --> 00:28:08.900 it actually supports their cognition. They develop increased cognitive functioning. 00:28:09.860 --> 00:28:14.391 see this evident in neuroimaging studies that have shown increases in the size 00:28:14.475 --> 00:28:18.947 and connectivity between different brain regions when people engage regularly 00:28:19.030 --> 00:28:23.486 in the arts. But we can also see this over time. As people get older, 00:28:23.569 --> 00:28:28.039 those who've got more regular patterns of arts engagement actually have better 00:28:28.123 --> 00:28:30.666 preservation of their cognition. And in fact, 00:28:30.750 --> 00:28:33.118 they even tend to have younger brain ages. 00:28:33.202 --> 00:28:37.672 We can estimate someone's brain age based on how their brain is connecting and 00:28:37.755 --> 00:28:40.591 the patterns of connectivity across brain regions. 00:28:40.674 --> 00:28:43.218 And people who are amateurs or professionals, 00:28:43.301 --> 00:28:48.063 their brains actually are younger as they get older compared to their chronological 00:28:48.146 --> 00:28:48.980 age. 00:28:50.300 --> 00:28:54.315 to seven years younger as they head into older adulthood, their brains are. 00:28:54.399 --> 00:28:58.414 And actually, we've seen that this is related as well to a delayed onset of 00:28:58.497 --> 00:29:01.037 the symptoms of dementia, because with dementia, 00:29:01.121 --> 00:29:05.027 even if your brain is starting to accumulate some of the plaques that are 00:29:05.110 --> 00:29:07.595 typical of conditions like Alzheimer's disease, 00:29:07.678 --> 00:29:11.202 people who've got higher levels of what we call cognitive reserve, 00:29:11.285 --> 00:29:15.220 they're actually able to compensate for longer. So their brains are able 00:29:20.300 --> 00:29:25.022 And what we seem to be finding through lots of different studies now is that arts 00:29:25.106 --> 00:29:29.116 engagement is helping to build that cognitive reserve so that people, 00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:33.744 even if they start to develop dementia, they can manage cognitively far better 00:29:33.827 --> 00:29:34.661 for longer. 00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:39.407 And in some ways, there's an analogy here with physical health. 00:29:39.490 --> 00:29:43.114 So if you're very healthy, if you're strong and you go through a period 00:29:43.197 --> 00:29:47.239 of decline, you have longer to go before you get incapacitated because you have 00:29:47.323 --> 00:29:50.790 more muscle to start with, more cardiovascular health to start with. 00:29:50.874 --> 00:29:54.498 And you're making the same case, really, for what happens in our minds. 00:29:54.581 --> 00:29:58.362 The more we practice certain things, the more we develop a craft, a skill, 00:29:58.446 --> 00:29:59.917 a mental ability, a cognitive 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:05.340 This gives us reserves that help us stave off decline for longer periods of time. 00:30:05.550 --> 00:30:09.405 That's essentially right as a metaphor. But there used to be a kind of craze 00:30:09.488 --> 00:30:12.410 about, well, could we do this through brain training apps, 00:30:12.493 --> 00:30:16.503 like games you would do on your phone that would build that cognitive function? 00:30:16.586 --> 00:30:19.197 But actually, when the big studies of this came out, 00:30:19.281 --> 00:30:22.980 the results weren't that impressive, because it was a kind of realisation 00:30:23.063 --> 00:30:26.690 that those games are only practising one cognitive function at a time. 00:30:35.550 --> 00:30:38.486 engagement, that whole brain workout that I spoke about. 00:30:38.569 --> 00:30:42.691 And that's why I think the arts is such an exciting opportunity for supporting 00:30:42.774 --> 00:30:44.230 our brains as we get older. 00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:52.412 Across many years of research, scientists like Daisy have been building evidence 00:30:52.496 --> 00:30:55.796 to prove that engagement with the arts can make a real difference. 00:30:56.190 --> 00:31:00.291 When we come back, how to bring the arts into our daily lives and reap all 00:31:00.374 --> 00:31:02.070 the riches they have to offer. 00:31:03.330 --> 00:31:05.970 Also, in our companion story to this episode, 00:31:06.053 --> 00:31:09.479 available exclusively to subscribers to Hidden Brain Plus, 00:31:09.563 --> 00:31:12.770 we dive deeper into the role of the arts in medicine. 00:31:13.050 --> 00:31:16.410 If you're a subscriber, that episode is available right now. 00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:20.542 It's titled The Healing Arts. If you're not yet a subscriber, 00:31:20.626 --> 00:31:25.277 please go to support.hiddenbrain.org. If you're using an Apple device, 00:31:25.360 --> 00:31:27.660 please go to apple.co.hiddenbrain. 00:31:27.930 --> 00:31:30.981 You can get a free seven-day trial in both places, 00:31:31.065 --> 00:31:35.683 and you'll instantly have access to all our subscriber-only content. Again, 00:31:35.767 --> 00:31:37.710 that's support.hiddenbrain.org. 00:31:37.830 --> 00:31:40.590 or apple.co slash hiddenbrain. 00:31:43.830 --> 00:31:44.930 I'm Shankar Vedanta. 00:31:58.820 --> 00:32:01.447 This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. 00:32:01.530 --> 00:32:06.362 Has this conversation stirred thoughts of encounters you've had with the arts? 00:32:06.446 --> 00:32:11.152 If you have a personal story you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain 00:32:11.236 --> 00:32:14.556 audience, or a question or comment about this episode, 00:32:14.639 --> 00:32:18.841 please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone. 00:32:18.924 --> 00:32:23.253 Two or three minutes is plenty. Then, email the file to us at feedback 00:32:23.336 --> 00:32:30.090 at hiddenbrain.org. Use the subject line, Again, that's feedback at hiddenbrain.org. 00:32:33.550 --> 00:32:37.925 Daisy Fancourt is a psychobiologist at University College London. 00:32:38.009 --> 00:32:42.810 She is the author of Art Cure, The Science of How the Arts Save Lives. 00:32:43.650 --> 00:32:47.877 Daisy, you say that a first step in accessing the benefits of the arts is 00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:52.541 to figure out how to add some aspect of the arts to our lives every single day. 00:32:52.624 --> 00:32:54.750 How do you advise people to do this? 00:32:56.040 --> 00:33:00.223 I think it's great to think about this in the same way we think about our diet 00:33:00.306 --> 00:33:04.270 or our exercise. We're used to target 10,000 steps a day or eat five fruit 00:33:04.353 --> 00:33:08.591 and vegetables a day or whatever. And I think having a simple rule like that is 00:33:08.674 --> 00:33:11.489 a really great way of starting. Now, for some people, 00:33:11.573 --> 00:33:15.154 that might be 10 or 15 or 20 minutes that you're able to put aside. 00:33:15.237 --> 00:33:17.779 And there can be really easy ways of doing this, 00:33:17.862 --> 00:33:20.980 even sort of simple swaps that you can have in your life. 00:33:26.040 --> 00:33:29.078 I can't I live too far away to to cycle or run to work. 00:33:29.161 --> 00:33:33.561 But when I'm on my train each day, I'm not allowed to scroll my phone. Instead, 00:33:33.645 --> 00:33:37.080 I use that time to sit and listen to music or to read my book. 00:33:37.163 --> 00:33:41.760 And that's a really easy way of making sure I get those minutes every single day. 00:33:47.750 --> 00:33:50.289 You see that it's important to focus on consistency. 00:33:50.372 --> 00:33:54.223 So rather than trying to get four hours in one day and nothing for the rest of 00:33:54.306 --> 00:33:57.130 the week, it's more helpful to get 20 minutes every day. 00:33:58.730 --> 00:34:02.471 If we're engaging regularly, it's much more likely to become a habit that sticks. 00:34:02.555 --> 00:34:05.966 So you're much more likely to find that you don't just cancel that one day 00:34:06.049 --> 00:34:09.271 and then realise it's been a couple of weeks since you did everything. 00:34:09.354 --> 00:34:12.246 But it also means you can be getting those benefits day to day. 00:34:12.329 --> 00:34:16.070 And lots of the immediate benefits people get from arts engagement are for things 00:34:16.154 --> 00:34:19.942 like stress and for mood. And those are things that we can all benefit from having 00:34:20.026 --> 00:34:22.826 the little pick me ups embedded in our day to day lives. 00:34:28.050 --> 00:34:31.967 on sustainability of engagement. So having something that you do as a habit 00:34:32.050 --> 00:34:36.340 for months or years of your lives, if you really want to be supporting things like 00:34:36.423 --> 00:34:38.687 brain health, for example, as you get older, 00:34:38.770 --> 00:34:42.953 or the reduced risk of developing various mental and physical health conditions. 00:34:43.037 --> 00:34:47.250 So I think it's really great to find that daily dose that's achievable for you. 00:34:47.940 --> 00:34:51.160 You know, some people struggle to start an exercise routine, 00:34:51.243 --> 00:34:55.398 and they find it helpful to join an exercise class or maybe to get a trainer. 00:34:55.482 --> 00:34:59.280 And in some ways, perhaps the same is true when it comes to the arts. 00:35:00.870 --> 00:35:04.800 I think it is true because some people are concerned that they're not artistic 00:35:04.883 --> 00:35:07.476 or creative enough or they're not good at something. 00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:11.695 They haven't got the right skills. So it can be really effective to start a hobby, 00:35:11.778 --> 00:35:15.451 an arts hobby, by joining a local group or by having a couple of lessons, 00:35:15.535 --> 00:35:19.156 a bit of instruction to get you going or even using things like YouTube. 00:35:19.239 --> 00:35:23.067 So you've got some videos or an online community for some support to get you 00:35:23.150 --> 00:35:26.874 going. And actually for things that involve a certain level of skill to be 00:35:26.958 --> 00:35:28.810 able to really get the most of them. 00:35:30.870 --> 00:35:34.946 learning musical instruments literature now suggests that if you can do something 00:35:35.030 --> 00:35:39.055 for 50 hours then actually you tend to have the level of skill that mean you can 00:35:39.138 --> 00:35:43.215 really fly with it on your own and really start to enjoy it and get into the flow 00:35:43.298 --> 00:35:47.323 of it so that can be good for people to recognize that it might take a few weeks 00:35:47.407 --> 00:35:51.072 to feel like they're really comfortable with an artistic hobby so to give 00:35:51.156 --> 00:35:54.462 themselves the time to have those experiences and build that level 00:35:54.545 --> 00:35:55.378 of comfort. 00:35:55.830 --> 00:36:02.310 Music 00:36:03.380 --> 00:36:07.505 Intuitively, it seems to me that if you can do an arts activity with someone whom 00:36:07.589 --> 00:36:11.870 you like, a friend, it's a little bit like starting a workout routine with a friend. 00:36:11.953 --> 00:36:13.720 You're more likely to stick to it. 00:36:15.100 --> 00:36:19.099 Definitely. And actually, there are some great ways you can do this in your lives. 00:36:19.183 --> 00:36:23.282 So in the UK, actually, we found there are lots of venues like pubs or bars that are 00:36:23.365 --> 00:36:27.215 now doing crafts evenings. So you can go alone, you can socialise with friends, 00:36:27.298 --> 00:36:31.248 but you can have that artistic focus or you can meet up with friends at a gallery 00:36:31.331 --> 00:36:35.081 or an exhibition as a way of having something to look at as well as that time 00:36:35.165 --> 00:36:36.265 to talk to each other. 00:36:44.580 --> 00:36:48.363 so that they're actually embedding those creative experiences with the social 00:36:48.446 --> 00:36:51.860 experiences that they've already made the time for in their diaries. 00:36:52.470 --> 00:36:55.946 I want to go back to something that you mentioned a second earlier, 00:36:56.029 --> 00:37:00.036 because I think this is a real barrier for many people. You know, people say, 00:37:00.120 --> 00:37:03.968 I'm not musical, or I can't draw to save my life. Talk about this barrier, 00:37:04.051 --> 00:37:07.421 the sense of shame that we have about our own artistic abilities, 00:37:07.504 --> 00:37:10.449 especially compared to what we might see on social media, 00:37:10.532 --> 00:37:12.733 other people posting their accomplishments, 00:37:12.816 --> 00:37:16.664 how this is in some ways a barrier to us jumping into the water and trying 00:37:16.748 --> 00:37:17.810 something ourselves. 00:37:18.660 --> 00:37:22.484 I think it's really a sign about how we as societies have sort of taken arts 00:37:22.567 --> 00:37:26.288 engagement and actually commodified it. We've sort of made it this object, 00:37:26.372 --> 00:37:30.453 this thing that you're supposed to be good at or you have to feel like you've had 00:37:30.536 --> 00:37:32.663 particular training to be allowed to do it. 00:37:32.747 --> 00:37:36.365 But just look back at young children, because when you look at children, 00:37:36.448 --> 00:37:40.118 all children sing, they dance, they make up stories, they act things out, 00:37:40.201 --> 00:37:44.520 they constantly draw or craft. They're not worried about whether they're good at it. 00:37:48.660 --> 00:37:53.563 creativity so I think it's really helpful to draw on children as inspiration 00:37:53.647 --> 00:37:58.813 and remind ourselves that a lot of the health benefits of the arts actually come 00:37:58.896 --> 00:38:01.980 from doing it not necessarily being good at it. 00:38:02.190 --> 00:38:03.023 Thank you. 00:38:03.510 --> 00:38:10.510 *music* 00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:12.593 Thank you. 00:38:13.050 --> 00:38:16.627 Thank you. You say that just as we might plan our meals out, you know, 00:38:16.710 --> 00:38:20.390 that on some days we're going to eat in and some days we're going to go to 00:38:20.473 --> 00:38:23.695 a restaurant, we can do the same thing when it comes to the arts, 00:38:23.778 --> 00:38:26.270 that we can actually plan our artistic calendars? 00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:30.246 I think that's a really great way of doing things. 00:38:30.329 --> 00:38:34.529 So that might be a case of seeing if there are some exhibitions or a festival coming 00:38:34.612 --> 00:38:38.608 up or there are films that you really want to see or that there are certain gigs 00:38:38.691 --> 00:38:40.680 or things you need to book tickets for. 00:38:57.780 --> 00:39:02.152 And they're also a really good way of making sure that we're just building those 00:39:02.236 --> 00:39:06.497 additional routines to increase that overall pattern of engagement that we get 00:39:06.580 --> 00:39:07.414 with the arts. 00:39:08.370 --> 00:39:10.472 You said something important a second ago, 00:39:10.555 --> 00:39:12.813 which is that it's one thing to consume arts, 00:39:12.896 --> 00:39:16.143 going to a festival or going to an exhibition, watching a movie. 00:39:16.226 --> 00:39:19.577 It's another thing to be producing art. Talk about the difference. 00:39:19.660 --> 00:39:23.770 Is there any evidence or research about the benefits of doing one or the other? 00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:27.785 Well, if we think back about what ingredients we're getting when we're 00:39:27.868 --> 00:39:30.436 engaging with the arts, if we're watching something, 00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:32.934 we're being exposed to lots of different stimuli. 00:39:33.017 --> 00:39:36.604 But if we're doing it ourselves, we're getting further types of stimuli, 00:39:36.687 --> 00:39:40.427 often tactile stimuli, for example, which people can find very therapeutic. 00:39:40.511 --> 00:39:44.098 But also if we're building our skills, that relates to those experiences 00:39:44.181 --> 00:39:48.227 of mastery that we've spoken about or a feeling of self-esteem or accomplishments 00:39:48.310 --> 00:39:50.400 that we can get through the arts as well. 00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:58.168 plants and vegetables in our diets, it can be really important to have a variety 00:39:58.251 --> 00:40:00.950 of arts experiences because they're exposing us. 00:40:01.270 --> 00:40:04.330 to different kinds of ingredients that have health benefits. 00:40:04.413 --> 00:40:08.731 And for some health conditions, it doesn't really matter whether you are receptively 00:40:08.814 --> 00:40:11.298 watching something versus actively participating. 00:40:11.381 --> 00:40:15.017 So for a lot of mental health outcomes, we actually see that both kinds 00:40:15.100 --> 00:40:18.580 of engagements have benefits just in slightly different ways for us. 00:40:18.663 --> 00:40:21.094 But there are other experiences, other outcomes. 00:40:21.177 --> 00:40:24.709 So things like outcomes relating to mobility or to pain, for example, 00:40:24.792 --> 00:40:27.957 we're actually having that active ingredient of participating. 00:40:28.040 --> 00:40:29.350 It's giving us additional 00:40:31.270 --> 00:40:34.770 additional mechanisms that can actually support those health outcomes. 00:40:36.140 --> 00:40:40.096 You recommend regularly changing up the kinds of arts that we engage in. 00:40:40.179 --> 00:40:44.780 I'm wondering why this is, Daisy. If you love something, why not just stick to it? 00:40:45.130 --> 00:40:49.533 So if you love something, then absolutely you can stick to it to a certain degree. 00:40:49.616 --> 00:40:53.308 But sometimes what people find is what we call the hedonic treadmill. 00:40:53.392 --> 00:40:55.661 If they're doing something that they enjoy, 00:40:55.744 --> 00:40:59.764 they can sometimes start to adapt to it and it doesn't necessarily continue 00:40:59.848 --> 00:41:02.773 to bring exactly the same kinds of well-being benefits. 00:41:02.857 --> 00:41:06.030 So people actually will often organically shift things up. 00:41:15.130 --> 00:41:19.087 find that you're setting yourself different kinds of challenges or different 00:41:19.170 --> 00:41:23.446 patterns that you're trying to learn but sometimes people can still find that it's 00:41:23.529 --> 00:41:27.486 good to mix things up and bring in a completely different type of arts hobby 00:41:27.569 --> 00:41:31.048 because that can be a great way of exposing their brains to novelty 00:41:31.131 --> 00:41:34.769 to sparking their imagination and to perhaps making sure that whatever 00:41:34.852 --> 00:41:39.075 behavioral routines they've got in their lives keep that freshness and excitement 00:41:39.158 --> 00:41:39.527 to them 00:41:39.610 --> 00:41:46.610 . 00:41:47.650 --> 00:41:48.483 Thank you. 00:41:48.970 --> 00:41:53.090 *music* 00:41:53.470 --> 00:41:59.843 *music* I think many of us do engage with music or the arts, 00:41:59.927 --> 00:42:03.486 but we often do it as we're doing something else. So, you know, 00:42:03.570 --> 00:42:08.170 you're racing home from work. Maybe you're on a train. You're playing some music, 00:42:08.253 --> 00:42:12.853 but you're also reading your email. It's one thing to listen to a beautiful piece 00:42:12.937 --> 00:42:17.363 of music with one ear and quite another to immerse ourselves completely in it. 00:42:17.447 --> 00:42:21.527 You talked a second ago about how when you are commuting home from work, 00:42:21.610 --> 00:42:25.458 you actually are devoting your full attention to the art that you're 00:42:25.542 --> 00:42:26.375 consuming. 00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:31.881 this, the importance of actually sitting and savoring and focusing on the art, 00:42:31.964 --> 00:42:34.680 not just doing it with one ear or one eye. 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:39.750 Yes, when we listen to music, for example, quite in the background, 00:42:39.833 --> 00:42:43.728 it can still be having some benefits for us, like reducing stress response, 00:42:43.811 --> 00:42:46.698 for example. But if it's not getting our full attention, 00:42:46.781 --> 00:42:49.721 we're not going to be getting the maximum impact from it. 00:42:49.804 --> 00:42:53.964 So I think it's really important that we are consciously aware about how much we 00:42:54.047 --> 00:42:57.782 are passively engaging in the arts versus giving it that full attention. 00:42:57.865 --> 00:43:01.707 Because when we give it full attention, all of our emotional responses are 00:43:01.790 --> 00:43:04.760 heightened. Our stress responses are heightened as well. 00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:08.755 to really get into the flow of what we're doing. 00:43:08.838 --> 00:43:11.207 And if we can really get into that flow state, 00:43:11.290 --> 00:43:15.364 that feeling of complete absorption, where we're forgetting everything else in 00:43:15.447 --> 00:43:18.455 our lives, it has profound benefits for our mental health. 00:43:18.538 --> 00:43:22.399 And it also has profound benefits for our brain health that actually leads 00:43:22.482 --> 00:43:26.450 to synchronization between particular brain regions and enhances our overall 00:43:26.533 --> 00:43:30.607 attention as well. So I think it's really great that we can ensure that we are 00:43:30.690 --> 00:43:35.137 giving our time and space rather than just always relegating it to background passive 00:43:35.220 --> 00:43:36.054 consumption. 00:43:36.940 --> 00:43:40.839 I'm thinking, Daisy, about how sometimes when I'm eating some dessert, 00:43:40.923 --> 00:43:44.651 if I actually take my time with it and linger over it and savor it, 00:43:44.735 --> 00:43:46.067 the dessert tastes good. 00:43:46.150 --> 00:43:49.023 two or three times as good as a dessert that I'm rushing through. 00:43:49.107 --> 00:43:51.507 And the same thing in some ways is true for art. 00:43:52.420 --> 00:43:55.750 Absolutely. We get a much deeper appreciation and enjoyment from it. 00:43:55.834 --> 00:43:59.415 Essentially, all of our senses are heightened when we're giving ourselves 00:43:59.498 --> 00:44:03.531 that full attention on what we're doing. And we see things like increased dopamine 00:44:03.614 --> 00:44:07.580 release or increased feelings of happiness if we're really focusing on the art. 00:44:08.710 --> 00:44:13.559 A reminder, do you have a personal story about the effects of the arts in your life 00:44:13.642 --> 00:44:18.075 or the life of a family member? If you have a story you are willing to share 00:44:18.158 --> 00:44:22.531 with the Hidden Brain audience or a question or comment about this episode, 00:44:22.615 --> 00:44:26.572 please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone. 00:44:26.656 --> 00:44:31.504 Two or three minutes is plenty. Email it to us at feedback at hiddenbrain.org using 00:44:31.588 --> 00:44:35.450 the subject line arts. Again, that's feedback at hiddenbrain.org. 00:44:36.010 --> 00:44:40.087 Daisy, I understand that you have come up with a number of ways to incorporate 00:44:40.170 --> 00:44:44.330 the arts into your own daily life. Paint a picture for me of what you've done. 00:44:44.980 --> 00:44:48.830 One of the things that I've done in my life is I've tried to work out across 00:44:48.914 --> 00:44:52.298 the day, when am I most likely to be able to benefit from the arts? 00:44:52.382 --> 00:44:56.180 So I've often found that if I swap my alarm on my phone to a really calming 00:44:56.264 --> 00:45:00.218 piece of music in the mornings, that really subtle shift can completely change 00:45:00.301 --> 00:45:03.116 my mood when I first get up and how I'm starting my day. 00:45:03.200 --> 00:45:07.412 I've also found some of the times like in the afternoon when sometimes I have a bit 00:45:07.496 --> 00:45:11.139 of an energy dip where I know that actually putting on some music can be 00:45:11.223 --> 00:45:13.500 a really great way of freshening up my mood. 00:45:14.980 --> 00:45:19.231 to actually take a little bit of a break from work and just help me to shake up 00:45:19.314 --> 00:45:23.456 that slump in the afternoon. I'm somebody that really loves to be sociable in 00:45:23.539 --> 00:45:27.461 the evenings. So I've really enjoyed being able to find ways of combining 00:45:27.544 --> 00:45:30.095 my socialising with also seeing friends as well. 00:45:30.178 --> 00:45:33.771 That's felt like a really nice way of not having to find more time, 00:45:33.854 --> 00:45:38.160 but being able to maximise the time that I do have to have those more meaningful 00:45:38.243 --> 00:45:39.560 experiences with people. 00:45:44.980 --> 00:45:49.287 like a book club or I'll go to go and try a new class or a taster session 00:45:49.371 --> 00:45:54.280 of something, because I find that that's another great way of keeping my engagement 00:45:54.363 --> 00:45:58.490 really novel and fresh. I'm wondering when you socialize with friends, 00:45:58.573 --> 00:46:03.061 you sometimes say that you skip having drinks or dinners and try and swap in 00:46:03.145 --> 00:46:07.873 an arts activity instead. Can you paint me a picture of a time when you did this 00:46:07.956 --> 00:46:09.460 with some friends, Daisy? 00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:13.838 I found recently that I've been meeting some friends at galleries or exhibitions 00:46:13.921 --> 00:46:17.024 that have been on. And it's a really great way to be catching up. 00:46:17.107 --> 00:46:20.504 But whilst you're looking around and able to think about and talk about 00:46:20.588 --> 00:46:24.622 the paintings as well. I also think it can be a really nice way if you've got things 00:46:24.705 --> 00:46:28.151 you want to talk about with friends that are a little bit harder or more 00:46:28.234 --> 00:46:31.974 emotionally intense. To actually do something that's not just sitting opposite 00:46:32.057 --> 00:46:33.957 people at a dining table, for example, 00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:44.335 performed in kind of public events, it can be a great way of actually giving yourself 00:46:44.418 --> 00:46:47.921 a little bit more time and focus to actually have some more difficult 00:46:48.004 --> 00:46:48.940 conversations too. 00:46:50.950 --> 00:46:56.690 you 00:46:56.890 --> 00:47:00.430 Thank you. 00:47:01.240 --> 00:47:05.357 I was talking to a friend recently who told me that before she had kids, 00:47:05.441 --> 00:47:09.324 she and her husband would go ballroom dancing multiple times a week. 00:47:09.408 --> 00:47:13.758 And of course, I'm reflecting now as I'm hearing you speak that in some ways 00:47:13.842 --> 00:47:17.726 that has so many different components of what you just talked about. 00:47:17.809 --> 00:47:21.284 You're listening to the music, you're dancing, you're social, 00:47:21.368 --> 00:47:26.068 you're being with someone. All of these things in some ways have profound benefits 00:47:26.152 --> 00:47:26.985 for us. 00:47:27.550 --> 00:47:31.687 They do. And they're often much more memorable as events to do together than 00:47:31.770 --> 00:47:34.019 simply going out for a meal. And actually, 00:47:34.102 --> 00:47:37.517 we do know from a social bonding perspective that if we do arts 00:47:37.600 --> 00:47:40.348 with people, so if we sing or we dance with people, 00:47:40.432 --> 00:47:45.013 we actually become emotionally closer with them faster than if we just talk or if we 00:47:45.096 --> 00:47:49.288 exercise with them. So it's a really lovely thing to do as well if people are 00:47:49.371 --> 00:47:51.870 forming new relationships or new friendships, 00:47:57.550 --> 00:47:58.670 deeper connection. 00:48:11.860 --> 00:48:15.545 Daisy Fancourt is a psychobiologist at University College London. 00:48:15.628 --> 00:48:20.008 She is the author of Art Cure, the science of how the arts save lives. Daisy, 00:48:20.092 --> 00:48:23.280 thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain. 00:48:24.070 --> 00:48:24.903 It's a pleasure. 00:48:25.750 --> 00:48:32.750 Thank you. 00:48:37.690 --> 00:48:41.411 Laura Querell, Ryan Katz, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. 00:48:41.495 --> 00:48:46.110 Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. 00:48:49.150 --> 00:48:53.117 If you like this episode, please think of a friend who might like it as well, 00:48:53.200 --> 00:48:54.677 and share this episode with them. 00:48:54.760 --> 00:48:58.896 If they are new to Hidden Brain, they may also discover other episodes that are 00:48:58.979 --> 00:48:59.812 of interest. 00:49:03.310 --> 00:49:06.100 I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon. 00:49:06.370 --> 00:49:13.370 Music by Ben Thede