1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:02,570 This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. 2 00:00:03,510 --> 00:00:06,725 The Old Testament tells the story of King Saul, 3 00:00:06,808 --> 00:00:11,510 a ruler who was frequently gripped by waves of anguish and despair. 4 00:00:12,420 --> 00:00:17,639 When Saul was afflicted by such torments, his advisors didn't always call for 5 00:00:17,723 --> 00:00:22,942 a physician or a priest. Instead, they summoned a young shepherd named David, 6 00:00:23,025 --> 00:00:25,780 known for his skill at playing the lyre. 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:34,620 As the music began to play, King Saul's mind would settle and his mood would lift. 8 00:00:42,420 --> 00:00:45,010 Legend. Poetic. Symbolic. 9 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,548 even mystical. But do they point to something real? Today, 10 00:00:49,632 --> 00:00:55,382 a growing body of scientific research suggests that music, painting, dance, 11 00:00:55,466 --> 00:00:59,038 and storytelling do far more than entertain us. 12 00:00:59,121 --> 00:01:03,083 They calm our nervous systems, reshape our emotions, 13 00:01:03,166 --> 00:01:06,200 and even influence our physical health. 14 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:14,406 This week on Hidden Brain, and in a companion story on Hidden Brain Plus, 15 00:01:14,490 --> 00:01:20,280 why the arts are no luxury, but rather a vital form of medicine for the mind. 16 00:01:29,670 --> 00:01:33,416 Think about the last time a piece of music stopped you in your tracks, 17 00:01:33,499 --> 00:01:35,768 or a novel kept you up late into the night, 18 00:01:35,851 --> 00:01:39,790 or a painting made you feel something you couldn't quite put into words. 19 00:01:40,260 --> 00:01:44,272 Why do these experiences feel so powerful? For a long time, 20 00:01:44,355 --> 00:01:49,131 scientists didn't have a clear answer. The arts seemed too subjective, 21 00:01:49,214 --> 00:01:54,420 too personal to study in any systematic way. But that's starting to change. 22 00:01:54,510 --> 00:01:58,646 At University College London, psychobiologist Daisy Fancourt has found 23 00:01:58,730 --> 00:02:02,504 that these moments are not just meaningful, they are measurable, 24 00:02:02,588 --> 00:02:07,350 and they can play a crucial role in our emotional and psychological well-being. 25 00:02:07,770 --> 00:02:10,090 Daisy Fancourt, welcome to Hidden Brain. 26 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,030 It's lovely to be with you. 27 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,615 Daisy, as a young woman, you were very involved in music, 28 00:02:16,698 --> 00:02:20,910 singing and playing the piano. What did you notice about the emotional 29 00:02:20,993 --> 00:02:25,780 and psychological effects that music and the arts had on you and your friends? 30 00:02:26,190 --> 00:02:31,114 I feel really lucky because I was born into a family of professional musicians. 31 00:02:31,197 --> 00:02:35,234 So the arts were just so much a part of my day to day upbringing. 32 00:02:35,318 --> 00:02:40,178 I don't think I really reflected on what a privilege that is to have that kind 33 00:02:40,262 --> 00:02:42,290 of exposure at such a young age. 34 00:02:56,190 --> 00:03:00,309 friendships that I built early on they came through playing music with friends 35 00:03:00,393 --> 00:03:04,566 being in orchestras or bands or being involved in musical theatre so I think it 36 00:03:04,650 --> 00:03:08,230 was a lot more fundamental and foundational to me than I necessarily 37 00:03:08,314 --> 00:03:09,930 appreciated at that young age. 38 00:03:10,500 --> 00:03:14,820 *music* 39 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:17,033 you 40 00:03:18,420 --> 00:03:21,235 I understand, Daisy, that while you were in college, 41 00:03:21,318 --> 00:03:25,749 you began working in a pediatric hospital. Tell me about this work, where it was, 42 00:03:25,833 --> 00:03:26,780 and what you did. 43 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,593 It was an incredible programme that was open to students at Oxford University 44 00:03:31,676 --> 00:03:34,263 where I was studying. And alongside your studies, 45 00:03:34,346 --> 00:03:37,696 you could train to go and deliver arts programmes in hospitals. 46 00:03:37,779 --> 00:03:42,055 And it was something I just jumped at immediately because I was still fascinated 47 00:03:42,138 --> 00:03:45,543 by science and medicine and keen to find a way to blend the two. 48 00:03:45,626 --> 00:03:50,011 So we received training and then worked in paediatric hospital wards doing singing 49 00:03:50,094 --> 00:03:51,620 workshops with the children. 50 00:03:52,470 --> 00:03:57,200 And I was just completely blown away by the impact that I saw the singing having. 51 00:03:57,284 --> 00:04:00,528 I kind of expected it to be a nice bit of entertainment. 52 00:04:00,612 --> 00:04:05,104 But actually I was seeing directly that singing with children who were really 53 00:04:05,188 --> 00:04:09,562 anxious and crying and distressed would stop them crying and would actually 54 00:04:09,645 --> 00:04:11,190 completely calm them down. 55 00:04:12,210 --> 00:04:13,043 you 56 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,394 And I saw these amazing interactions between patients and their siblings, 57 00:04:17,477 --> 00:04:21,579 that actually music was providing this form of emotional and social connection 58 00:04:21,662 --> 00:04:25,389 for them, even in this very challenging and kind of often inhumane kind 59 00:04:25,472 --> 00:04:29,681 of environment of the hospital. So I was actually able to witness the benefits I 60 00:04:29,764 --> 00:04:32,340 hadn't really appreciated that music could have. 61 00:04:32,610 --> 00:04:33,443 you 62 00:04:38,340 --> 00:04:43,147 I understand that on one occasion you observed a premature baby in the hospital 63 00:04:43,230 --> 00:04:47,440 who was crying inconsolably and refusing to eat. Tell me that story. 64 00:04:48,750 --> 00:04:51,474 We were working in NICU, so neonatal intensive care units, 65 00:04:51,558 --> 00:04:55,057 with some of the parents and actually trying to help the mothers sing with 66 00:04:55,140 --> 00:04:58,639 their babies. And I remember this one child who was just crying and crying 67 00:04:58,723 --> 00:05:02,609 and the mother was really struggling and you could see it was really impacting her 68 00:05:02,692 --> 00:05:06,433 psychologically as well. But as soon as we started singing this lullaby and she 69 00:05:06,517 --> 00:05:08,564 started singing along with her baby as well, 70 00:05:08,647 --> 00:05:12,340 the baby's behaviour just completely changed and within a couple of minutes it 71 00:05:12,423 --> 00:05:13,773 was suddenly feeding again. 72 00:05:20,430 --> 00:05:24,443 I'm assuming that part of this might have also been that singing was calming the mom 73 00:05:24,526 --> 00:05:27,626 down, and perhaps that was also sending a signal to her child. 74 00:05:27,810 --> 00:05:28,567 Thank you. 75 00:05:28,650 --> 00:05:31,963 Absolutely. And this is something that we actually saw so many times across 76 00:05:32,046 --> 00:05:35,541 different wards, that often the parents were the ones who were the most anxious 77 00:05:35,624 --> 00:05:39,157 and really actually struggling the most with the situations they were in. 78 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,455 And actually giving them a way that they could engage and play and respond 79 00:05:42,538 --> 00:05:46,021 with their children through singing was something that was supporting that whole 80 00:05:46,104 --> 00:05:47,154 family unit together. 81 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:49,073 you 82 00:05:51,990 --> 00:05:57,387 Another time you saw a child being treated for burns. He was in severe pain. 83 00:05:57,471 --> 00:05:59,490 What did you observe, Daisy? 84 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,488 Well, after I finished college, I actually got a full time job working in 85 00:06:03,572 --> 00:06:05,995 our National Health Service. So working in hospitals, 86 00:06:06,078 --> 00:06:09,635 designing new arts programs. And one of the one of the wards we worked on was 87 00:06:09,719 --> 00:06:13,276 in the emergency department. And I remember there was a little boy who'd come 88 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,823 in who'd had really terrible burns and there was a delay in managing to get 89 00:06:16,906 --> 00:06:20,133 morphine to him. And he was calling out for pain relief. But actually, 90 00:06:20,216 --> 00:06:23,726 there was a theatre group that we had in the hospital and they started doing 91 00:06:23,810 --> 00:06:26,752 this performance for him in the emergency department. And again, 92 00:06:26,836 --> 00:06:29,336 it was just this complete change in his behaviour. 93 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,898 wasn't asking for pain relief. He was smiling and laughing along with what they 94 00:06:33,981 --> 00:06:37,711 were doing. And you could see that that distraction that had provided had been 95 00:06:37,794 --> 00:06:41,544 sufficient for him no longer to feel out of control in that pain situation. 96 00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:45,595 And was this theatrical production, was it aimed at children? 97 00:06:45,678 --> 00:06:47,340 Was it aimed at his age group? 98 00:06:47,730 --> 00:06:51,545 Yes, it was. It was from a wonderful group called Chicken Shed who specialised in how 99 00:06:51,629 --> 00:06:53,563 you could engage young people with the arts. 100 00:06:53,647 --> 00:06:56,682 And we brought them into the hospital. They'd specialised in working 101 00:06:56,766 --> 00:06:59,297 in disability art, but we brought them in and said, well, 102 00:06:59,380 --> 00:07:02,553 can we adapt this and develop programmes that would be really targeting 103 00:07:02,636 --> 00:07:06,222 the children who are in the hospital? And they delivered some amazing programmes 104 00:07:06,306 --> 00:07:07,706 across our paediatric wards. 105 00:07:08,310 --> 00:07:09,067 Amen. 106 00:07:09,150 --> 00:07:16,150 you 107 00:07:17,730 --> 00:07:21,845 So even as you were seeing the effects that the arts were having on patients, 108 00:07:21,928 --> 00:07:25,007 you were also noticing that among some of your colleagues, 109 00:07:25,090 --> 00:07:28,769 doctors and administrators, they saw this as a form of entertainment, 110 00:07:28,852 --> 00:07:32,531 not as a form of therapy. Can you talk about this disconnect that you 111 00:07:32,614 --> 00:07:33,650 experienced, Daisy? 112 00:07:34,530 --> 00:07:39,059 you Well, it was sort of a situation where if people didn't know what it was and you 113 00:07:39,142 --> 00:07:42,187 started describing it, it was sort of described as, oh, yeah, 114 00:07:42,270 --> 00:07:44,802 the hospital entertainment programme. But actually, 115 00:07:44,886 --> 00:07:48,443 I noticed that as soon as we started working closely with clinicians on 116 00:07:48,526 --> 00:07:51,110 their wards, they actually really started to get it. 117 00:07:51,193 --> 00:07:55,161 They started to see this impact, like we brought music onto the dementia wards. 118 00:07:55,244 --> 00:07:57,827 And immediately when we started playing these songs, 119 00:07:57,911 --> 00:08:01,109 there were these patients who couldn't remember their relatives, 120 00:08:01,192 --> 00:08:03,500 but were suddenly singing along word perfect. 121 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,734 looking up and noticing and then we were having these great conversations where we 122 00:08:08,817 --> 00:08:12,142 were saying well how can we use this how can we use this with the patients 123 00:08:12,225 --> 00:08:14,325 to support them whilst they're in hospital 124 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,040 So I was seeing these moment to moment transitions in how the arts were being 125 00:08:21,124 --> 00:08:25,244 perceived by the clinical staff as we started working more closely with them. 126 00:08:25,327 --> 00:08:29,338 But it was still at a stage where we didn't fully have the evidence to sort 127 00:08:29,422 --> 00:08:33,487 of say, well, that's because of these scientific studies that we were seeing 128 00:08:33,571 --> 00:08:37,472 the impact, but not always having those scientific papers to fall back on 129 00:08:37,556 --> 00:08:38,389 to explain it. 130 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:47,753 all the time. 131 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,890 . you 132 00:08:53,460 --> 00:08:57,262 Daisy had seen that engagement with the arts was healing people and making them 133 00:08:57,345 --> 00:09:01,748 whole. When we come back, we follow Daisy as she becomes a researcher. 134 00:09:01,832 --> 00:09:06,603 She discovers why the arts have such striking effects and how to integrate them 135 00:09:06,687 --> 00:09:10,620 into the practice of medicine. You're listening to Hidden Brain. 136 00:09:10,740 --> 00:09:11,820 I'm Shankar Vedanta. 137 00:09:12,690 --> 00:09:14,750 you 138 00:09:21,870 --> 00:09:24,447 This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. 139 00:09:24,531 --> 00:09:29,398 After seeing firsthand the benefits of the arts in her own life and in the lives 140 00:09:29,481 --> 00:09:32,616 of her patients, Daisy Fancourt became a researcher. 141 00:09:32,699 --> 00:09:37,380 She started to generate hard scientific evidence for the benefits of the arts 142 00:09:37,464 --> 00:09:38,330 on our health. 143 00:09:39,810 --> 00:09:44,201 Over the past couple of decades, she and others have identified distinct ways 144 00:09:44,284 --> 00:09:47,167 in which the arts affect our bodies and our minds. 145 00:09:47,250 --> 00:09:48,083 you 146 00:09:49,140 --> 00:09:53,120 Daisy, you say that engaging with the arts can elevate our mood and increase 147 00:09:53,203 --> 00:09:56,488 our sense of well-being, not just in the moment, but over time. 148 00:09:56,572 --> 00:09:59,927 How is this happening, and do we understand the brain mechanism 149 00:10:00,010 --> 00:10:00,860 Lips behind this? 150 00:10:01,870 --> 00:10:06,101 It's actually one of the things people report the most when you ask them how they 151 00:10:06,184 --> 00:10:09,882 feel when they engage in the arts. They'll often say they feel happier. 152 00:10:09,966 --> 00:10:13,983 And we actually are really starting to understand more about the neuroscience 153 00:10:14,067 --> 00:10:16,700 of why this is. Because when we engage in the arts, 154 00:10:16,783 --> 00:10:20,907 we are essentially activating pleasure centres in the brain and reward networks 155 00:10:20,991 --> 00:10:25,275 like the dopaminergic system, which leads to the release of neurotransmitters like 156 00:10:25,358 --> 00:10:29,163 dopamine, which are involved in those feelings of happiness, of pleasure. 157 00:10:29,246 --> 00:10:31,110 And actually, we used to think that 158 00:10:31,870 --> 00:10:35,324 dopamine releases at the kind of peak moments of arts experiences, 159 00:10:35,407 --> 00:10:39,290 like if you're listening to a song and that chorus comes back and you have 160 00:10:39,373 --> 00:10:43,578 that kind of yes moment. But we also now know that you get those in anticipation 161 00:10:43,661 --> 00:10:47,061 of those moments. It's the build up to the return of that chorus. 162 00:10:47,145 --> 00:10:51,456 Or if you're reading a story, it's those moments when you're about to find out who 163 00:10:51,539 --> 00:10:55,101 the murderer is in a big detective novel, for example. And actually, 164 00:10:55,184 --> 00:10:57,810 that's why the arts are so effective at giving us 165 00:11:01,870 --> 00:11:06,008 tension and resolution and anticipating what might happen and seeing if we're 166 00:11:06,091 --> 00:11:09,187 right or having our expectations thwarted. So essentially, 167 00:11:09,271 --> 00:11:13,189 when we engage in the arts, we are giving our brains these repeated doses 168 00:11:13,272 --> 00:11:16,533 of dopamine. And that helps us to feel happier in the moment. 169 00:11:16,616 --> 00:11:20,151 But also over time, we see that the more regularly engaged we are, 170 00:11:20,235 --> 00:11:23,002 the higher the levels of our happiness that we have, 171 00:11:23,085 --> 00:11:27,168 the higher our life satisfaction. And particularly if we're getting involved 172 00:11:27,251 --> 00:11:28,085 in doing 173 00:11:31,870 --> 00:11:37,530 like our self-esteem, our sense of meaning and purpose and autonomy in our lives. 174 00:11:38,020 --> 00:11:41,009 Now, the arts evoke all kinds of different emotions. 175 00:11:41,092 --> 00:11:43,904 So we might watch a horror movie and feel scared, 176 00:11:43,987 --> 00:11:47,035 or we might listen to heavy metal and feel pumped up. 177 00:11:47,118 --> 00:11:51,820 How is it that these experiences can also produce feelings of happiness and peace 178 00:11:51,904 --> 00:11:55,838 when in some ways the experiences themselves might seem antithetical 179 00:11:55,921 --> 00:11:57,280 to happiness and peace? 180 00:11:58,150 --> 00:12:00,719 It's true. It feels like a paradox, doesn't it? 181 00:12:00,802 --> 00:12:04,725 That the idea you could watch a horror movie or read a really sad book, 182 00:12:04,809 --> 00:12:07,434 but somehow it's still good for your well-being. 183 00:12:07,517 --> 00:12:11,666 And the reason for this is that when we engage in arts and in, for example, 184 00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:14,036 sad or scary or shocking arts experiences, 185 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,930 we actually experience positive and negative emotions simultaneously. 186 00:12:18,013 --> 00:12:21,880 So if you experience those sad, scary or shocking events in real life, 187 00:12:21,964 --> 00:12:24,390 it would just be probably deeply traumatic. 188 00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:32,466 a little bit differently. So we've got a little bit of an aesthetic distance 189 00:12:32,549 --> 00:12:37,039 between us and that arts experience. And that distance means that we experience 190 00:12:37,122 --> 00:12:40,107 those emotions, but we don't have to respond to them. 191 00:12:40,190 --> 00:12:43,754 We don't have to change like the scary experience in our lives. 192 00:12:43,837 --> 00:12:46,822 We've not got to try and stop that fear. So actually, 193 00:12:46,905 --> 00:12:51,337 we get to contemplate it. That means our brains get to rehearse how they might 194 00:12:51,420 --> 00:12:55,530 regulate their emotions or think about how we might respond in the real 195 00:12:58,150 --> 00:13:00,558 do. And it's actually really good for us as well, 196 00:13:00,641 --> 00:13:02,744 because our brains are prediction machines. 197 00:13:02,827 --> 00:13:06,455 So when we engage in the arts, we're actually helping to expose ourselves 198 00:13:06,539 --> 00:13:10,167 to new situations that can help us navigate complex experiences when they 199 00:13:10,250 --> 00:13:13,166 come up in our real lives. And also that those experiences, 200 00:13:13,250 --> 00:13:16,014 even like listening to sad songs when we're feeling sad, 201 00:13:16,097 --> 00:13:19,420 it can give us a feeling of kind of authentic emotional connection, 202 00:13:19,503 --> 00:13:22,979 the feeling that other people might have experienced similar emotions, 203 00:13:23,062 --> 00:13:25,350 and that can also support us psychologically. 204 00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:30,210 you 205 00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:35,671 And perhaps this is why when people are really upset, 206 00:13:35,755 --> 00:13:40,614 sometimes they reach for sad songs, which would seem paradoxical because you would 207 00:13:40,697 --> 00:13:44,773 think that people would want to listen to songs that are happy songs. 208 00:13:44,856 --> 00:13:49,294 But very often we are looking for music that matches our internal emotional 209 00:13:49,377 --> 00:13:50,210 barometers. 210 00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:54,720 Exactly. And actually, sometimes it's through listening to those lyrics 211 00:13:54,803 --> 00:13:58,159 and songs or those melodies that we can start to understand our own emotions 212 00:13:58,242 --> 00:14:02,006 better. And that means we can then process them and be able to cope with them better, 213 00:14:02,089 --> 00:14:02,922 too. 214 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,884 We had a guest on Hidden Brain recently, Colton Scrivner, 215 00:14:12,967 --> 00:14:17,160 who talked about the effects of watching horror movies or scary experiences. 216 00:14:17,243 --> 00:14:20,592 And he was studying the effects that these have on our minds. 217 00:14:20,676 --> 00:14:24,643 But as you're talking right now, I'm realizing that in some ways there's 218 00:14:24,727 --> 00:14:29,145 a parallel. When we watch a scary movie about a shark or a monster of some kind, 219 00:14:29,228 --> 00:14:31,760 in some ways it's a form of exposure therapy. 220 00:14:32,380 --> 00:14:36,860 It is. You see this most clearly with young children who might want to read 221 00:14:36,943 --> 00:14:41,483 a ghost story over and over again because their brains are practicing having 222 00:14:41,567 --> 00:14:45,134 that fear, managing that fear, being able to rationalize it. 223 00:14:45,217 --> 00:14:48,297 We're often really drawn to those scary experiences. 224 00:14:48,381 --> 00:14:53,286 But there is a kind of caveat here, which is some people like me hate scary films. 225 00:14:53,370 --> 00:14:57,020 And that's because actually we're forgetting that it is art. 226 00:15:02,380 --> 00:15:04,519 I lose that distance and I just get scared. 227 00:15:04,602 --> 00:15:08,291 So that is a kind of caveat here is that we have to be appreciating those 228 00:15:08,374 --> 00:15:12,580 experiences for art. And it's the same way why sometimes if we've listened to a lot 229 00:15:12,664 --> 00:15:15,164 of really sad songs when we're feeling sad, again, 230 00:15:15,247 --> 00:15:19,195 we can get drawn in just a little bit too much and actually find that it's not 231 00:15:19,278 --> 00:15:20,880 supporting us in the right way. 232 00:15:21,730 --> 00:15:26,750 Talk about the role of the arts in helping us to regulate our emotions, Stacey. 233 00:15:27,250 --> 00:15:31,702 When we engage in the arts, it can actually give our brain a kind of toolkit 234 00:15:31,785 --> 00:15:36,356 of ways of managing our emotions. So some of the time it can be that if we are 235 00:15:36,439 --> 00:15:38,922 painting or dancing or singing or drumming, 236 00:15:39,005 --> 00:15:42,621 then we're actually cathartically getting rid of our emotions. 237 00:15:42,704 --> 00:15:47,454 We might be venting them, for example, if we're feeling angry or expressing those 238 00:15:47,538 --> 00:15:48,887 moods through our arts. 239 00:15:48,970 --> 00:15:52,811 But there are also other times when actually it can be really helpful for us 240 00:15:52,894 --> 00:15:56,425 to distance ourselves from emotions in our lives. If we're doing arts, 241 00:15:56,508 --> 00:16:00,091 it can give us a chance to be really mindful and just focus on the arts 242 00:16:00,174 --> 00:16:03,498 and give our brains a break from stresses or worries in our lives. 243 00:16:03,582 --> 00:16:06,390 Or it can even give us that chance to think differently, 244 00:16:06,473 --> 00:16:08,713 to kind of reappraise what might be going on. 245 00:16:08,796 --> 00:16:12,482 Lots of people will have had the experience where you do something really 246 00:16:12,565 --> 00:16:13,399 creative. 247 00:16:18,970 --> 00:16:22,383 you actually find yourself thinking a bit differently about the world. 248 00:16:22,466 --> 00:16:25,829 And by the time you've finished, you actually think differently about 249 00:16:25,912 --> 00:16:28,326 the problem you might have had in the first place. 250 00:16:28,409 --> 00:16:32,471 So arts can be this amazing way of giving our brains lots of different ways that we 251 00:16:32,554 --> 00:16:36,354 can then contemplate or reassess or cope with challenges we might be facing. 252 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,922 I understand that one study in the U.S. induced negative emotions in people 253 00:16:42,005 --> 00:16:45,723 by asking them to think about a very sad event or showing them, 254 00:16:45,806 --> 00:16:48,740 you know, photographs of tragedies like, you know, 255 00:16:48,823 --> 00:16:52,058 funeral scenes or experiences of torture and suffering. 256 00:16:52,141 --> 00:16:55,520 Describe this experiment for me and what it found, Desi. 257 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,032 This is a really interesting study that said, well, 258 00:16:59,115 --> 00:17:03,280 if we give people kind of puzzles or we tell them to draw shapes and copy things, 259 00:17:03,363 --> 00:17:06,741 then will that help to regulate their emotions, to calm them down, 260 00:17:06,825 --> 00:17:10,832 for example, or to de-stress them in a better or worse way than if we actually 261 00:17:10,916 --> 00:17:14,714 let them do creative things? And what they actually found is if people had 262 00:17:14,797 --> 00:17:18,385 that creative freedom, like they could draw freely or they could write 263 00:17:18,468 --> 00:17:20,588 expressively about what they were feeling, 264 00:17:20,671 --> 00:17:24,500 they actually helped to regulate their emotions much better, much faster. 265 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,305 creativity in the arts is one of the things that can really support us when 266 00:17:30,388 --> 00:17:33,095 we're feeling stressed or when we're feeling worried. 267 00:17:33,178 --> 00:17:37,411 I understand that you've seen something of this phenomenon firsthand when it comes 268 00:17:37,495 --> 00:17:38,600 to your own daughter. 269 00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:43,600 Well, I've got young children, and as any parents to young children will be able 270 00:17:43,683 --> 00:17:48,012 to attest, you see children really having to grapple with some big emotions and big 271 00:17:48,095 --> 00:17:52,265 experiences. And something I've noticed with my own kids is that if ever they're 272 00:17:52,348 --> 00:17:55,402 feeling worried about something or anxious about something, 273 00:17:55,485 --> 00:17:58,432 then just being able to hand them some paper and crayons, 274 00:17:58,515 --> 00:18:01,196 it's incredible how much they'll start to draw that. 275 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,449 Sometimes it's sort of angry scribbling. Other times it's more cathartic drawing 276 00:18:05,533 --> 00:18:06,366 of calm shapes. 277 00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:13,811 So they're really young. But that just shows how innately young children are 278 00:18:13,895 --> 00:18:18,041 drawn to using the arts in a very organic way to support their emotions. 279 00:18:18,124 --> 00:18:21,037 And I think we can forget this as we become adults. 280 00:18:21,121 --> 00:18:25,854 We can forget that the arts can be such a powerful way of supporting our emotions. 281 00:18:25,938 --> 00:18:30,050 So I always think children are such an amazing example of this for us. 282 00:18:33,550 --> 00:18:38,530 So. *music* 283 00:18:39,460 --> 00:18:43,937 You've studied the effects of group singing on patients dealing with cancer. 284 00:18:44,020 --> 00:18:45,880 Tell me about this work, Daisy. 285 00:18:46,980 --> 00:18:50,610 I've looked at the effect that the arts can have in lots of different patient 286 00:18:50,693 --> 00:18:54,082 groups where actually we might have a medical treatment for the illness, 287 00:18:54,165 --> 00:18:57,410 but we might not have a solution for thinking about holistically what 288 00:18:57,493 --> 00:19:01,412 that person is experiencing. The work that I've done in cancer hospitals in the UK, 289 00:19:01,496 --> 00:19:05,367 we've looked at having choirs for people, which have been a way of bringing people 290 00:19:05,450 --> 00:19:09,273 together in a social setting where they might be able to find some social support 291 00:19:09,356 --> 00:19:12,906 and companionship and people who understand what they're going through. 292 00:19:16,660 --> 00:19:19,365 We've discovered through the studies that when we sing, 293 00:19:19,448 --> 00:19:23,116 we reduce our levels of stress hormones and we also reduce inflammation in 294 00:19:23,199 --> 00:19:26,512 our immune system, which is linked not just to our physical health, 295 00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:29,452 but also to feelings like depression, depressive symptoms. 296 00:19:29,536 --> 00:19:33,204 And we've also found that people can experience a real sense of confidence 297 00:19:33,287 --> 00:19:37,006 through the choirs if they are learning this new skill of singing together. 298 00:19:37,089 --> 00:19:41,213 They're putting on performances. We found through our research that patients who've 299 00:19:41,296 --> 00:19:45,015 been in the studies were saying that they'd felt that their self-esteem had 300 00:19:45,098 --> 00:19:45,960 taken a real hit. 301 00:19:46,660 --> 00:19:50,138 They'd been undergoing cancer treatment, but this was actually a way they were 302 00:19:50,221 --> 00:19:53,197 performing again. They were feeling more confident in their bodies, 303 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,758 more confident socially, and it was helping them to navigate the psychological 304 00:19:56,841 --> 00:19:59,937 experience of cancer. I'm also reflecting on the 305 00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:02,535 that group singing involves singing in a group. 306 00:20:02,618 --> 00:20:04,857 So it's not just the music or the singing, 307 00:20:04,940 --> 00:20:07,760 it's probably helping patients connect with others. 308 00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:12,685 Very much so. And I think we see this across lots of different kinds of arts 309 00:20:12,768 --> 00:20:17,117 experiences. They can be this vehicle to us getting social interaction or physical 310 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,198 activity in dance, for example, or cognitive stimulation. 311 00:20:20,281 --> 00:20:23,549 So things that we already know are really good for our health. 312 00:20:23,632 --> 00:20:27,062 So the arts organically bring lots of those ingredients together. 313 00:20:27,146 --> 00:20:29,740 But the arts also do bring extra things as well. 314 00:20:38,660 --> 00:20:42,839 And I think it's the fact that the arts can combine all of those things into one 315 00:20:42,923 --> 00:20:45,800 experience that makes them so powerful for our health. 316 00:20:46,850 --> 00:20:48,910 you 317 00:20:52,910 --> 00:20:58,622 Now, of course, trying to express yourself in art requires a certain amount of craft 318 00:20:58,705 --> 00:21:04,279 and control. Talk a little bit about how engaging in the arts can give us feelings 319 00:21:04,362 --> 00:21:06,570 of mastery, feelings of control. 320 00:21:08,050 --> 00:21:11,686 This is something that many people can find challenging in their lives, 321 00:21:11,769 --> 00:21:15,352 is finding a way that they can feel that sense of mastery and control. 322 00:21:15,436 --> 00:21:19,281 And some people can get that through their work or through their home life, 323 00:21:19,364 --> 00:21:22,371 but there are plenty of people who don't actually get that, 324 00:21:22,455 --> 00:21:25,776 who can feel really disempowered in other aspects of their lives. 325 00:21:25,860 --> 00:21:29,862 But lots of studies have now shown that if we can engage in the arts and build 326 00:21:29,945 --> 00:21:33,790 artistic skills, even really simple things like learning to play a piece on 327 00:21:33,874 --> 00:21:34,707 the guitar, 328 00:21:37,250 --> 00:21:41,045 activity like do some knitting or crocheting or embroidery this can be 329 00:21:41,128 --> 00:21:45,699 a really good way of actually building our sense of ability our sense that we can do 330 00:21:45,782 --> 00:21:50,076 something our sense of mastery and this is one of the really core components of 331 00:21:50,159 --> 00:21:54,564 our well-being so it's a very important thing to make sure that we're cultivating 332 00:21:54,647 --> 00:21:58,830 but it can also then help us to build our belief in ourselves our feelings of 333 00:21:58,913 --> 00:22:03,290 our own self-efficacy or agency and these are really important life skills that 334 00:22:07,250 --> 00:22:10,114 to feel a sense that they're good at something creative, 335 00:22:10,198 --> 00:22:14,589 they've built up that skill, then that can help them to feel more confident that they 336 00:22:14,672 --> 00:22:17,063 could try a different skill in their lives. So, 337 00:22:17,146 --> 00:22:21,221 so many studies have shown that something as simple as joining a community arts 338 00:22:21,304 --> 00:22:25,064 group, for example, can lead to quite major life decisions like taking up 339 00:22:25,147 --> 00:22:29,011 another health behaviour or changing job or deciding to go out and find new 340 00:22:29,095 --> 00:22:32,990 friends, taking on challenges people haven't thought they could do before. 341 00:22:33,710 --> 00:22:37,870 *music* you 342 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,140 You tell the story of a woman named Shay. Can you tell me her story, Daisy? 343 00:22:45,140 --> 00:22:48,195 She is an attorney who currently now lives in Houston, 344 00:22:48,279 --> 00:22:52,729 and she is someone who describes to me that she had a really successful career 345 00:22:52,813 --> 00:22:56,914 as an attorney, but just wasn't feeling really fulfilled from that work. 346 00:22:56,998 --> 00:23:00,983 She describes her life as being kind of grey rather than technicolour. 347 00:23:01,066 --> 00:23:05,575 And she was really concerned about this, particularly as her mother became very 348 00:23:05,658 --> 00:23:09,237 unwell with developed cancer. And her mother was saying to her, 349 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,987 I really want you to find that sense of fulfilment in your life. 350 00:23:13,070 --> 00:23:17,090 But Shay remembered being really happy through singing experiences when she 351 00:23:17,174 --> 00:23:21,686 was younger. So she took this big leap and she signed up to a week long music course 352 00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:24,641 at Berklee College, a kind of unconventional vacation. 353 00:23:24,724 --> 00:23:28,690 And she described to me how this was a complete turning point in her life, 354 00:23:28,773 --> 00:23:32,465 that that course made her feel so happy, built that sense of mastery, 355 00:23:32,549 --> 00:23:36,460 really changed her whole outlook on herself and what she could do as well 356 00:23:36,543 --> 00:23:40,782 as the rest of her life. So after that, she decided that she was going to shift 357 00:23:40,866 --> 00:23:42,890 her attorney work and still carry on. 358 00:23:43,070 --> 00:23:47,857 actually make much more space for music in her life and she started doing more singer 359 00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:52,555 songwriting work and even doing tours and now like years later she says that she's 360 00:23:52,638 --> 00:23:56,737 completely transformed that sense of well-being in her life she's managed 361 00:23:56,821 --> 00:24:01,149 to use music to sort of compensate and balance out the things that she wasn't 362 00:24:01,232 --> 00:24:05,904 getting through her work and I feel like Shay's story is such a universal one there 363 00:24:05,988 --> 00:24:10,170 are so many people who feel like their jobs are not giving them that full 364 00:24:13,070 --> 00:24:16,126 something as simple as developing an artistic hobby on the side could 365 00:24:16,209 --> 00:24:19,856 completely change that sense of balance in their lives and as a result their whole 366 00:24:19,940 --> 00:24:21,490 experience of their well-being. 367 00:24:31,850 --> 00:24:35,943 So given all these trends of research, I'm wondering if there's evidence that 368 00:24:36,026 --> 00:24:38,630 the arts can help to ward off depression, Daisy? 369 00:25:01,850 --> 00:25:05,887 epidemiologist. So my field of work involves using very large data sets, 370 00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:10,235 cohort studies that track tens of thousands of people over years and decades 371 00:25:10,319 --> 00:25:13,669 of their lives. And actually, a lot of these cohort studies, 372 00:25:13,752 --> 00:25:18,361 which I analyse in the US and in the UK, have looked at people's arts engagements, 373 00:25:18,444 --> 00:25:22,195 and they've included lots of questions about their arts behaviours. 374 00:25:22,278 --> 00:25:26,715 So over the last 10 years, my team and I have been publishing dozens of papers, 375 00:25:26,798 --> 00:25:29,030 actually looking at how arts engagement 376 00:25:31,850 --> 00:25:36,037 over the following decades. And we found that people who engage regularly in 377 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:39,914 the arts and have an artistic hobby actually have about half the risk 378 00:25:39,997 --> 00:25:43,959 of developing depression over the next 10 years. So you could say, well, 379 00:25:44,042 --> 00:25:47,724 are these people just healthier or wealthier or have other patterns 380 00:25:47,807 --> 00:25:50,701 of behaviours in their lives? But as epidemiologists, 381 00:25:50,785 --> 00:25:55,253 we use statistical methods to basically try and account for all the other factors 382 00:25:55,336 --> 00:25:58,370 that could explain this relationship. So demographics, 383 00:26:01,850 --> 00:26:04,281 of people's lives or even their past histories. 384 00:26:04,364 --> 00:26:08,025 And we've actually seen that this relationship is independent of these 385 00:26:08,109 --> 00:26:12,412 factors. In other words, arts engagement seems to act as this risk-reducing factor 386 00:26:12,495 --> 00:26:15,330 against the risk of developing future mental illness. 387 00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:19,445 Is it clear which way the arrow of causation runs, though? 388 00:26:19,528 --> 00:26:22,371 You could imagine that someone who is not feeling depressed, 389 00:26:22,454 --> 00:26:25,102 somebody who's feeling generally happy with their lives, 390 00:26:25,185 --> 00:26:28,905 might be willing to take up a paintbrush or try their hand at a singing choir, 391 00:26:28,988 --> 00:26:32,221 and somebody who is depressed might stay away from those activities. 392 00:26:32,304 --> 00:26:36,073 Do we know that it's the arts that is reducing the risk of depression or people 393 00:26:36,157 --> 00:26:39,257 with lower depression who might be more engaged with the arts? 394 00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:43,057 That is such an important question. And it's one that we've really been trying 395 00:26:43,140 --> 00:26:45,063 to disentangle. When we've run our studies, 396 00:26:45,147 --> 00:26:48,377 you're right that we have seen some what we call bidirectional effects. 397 00:26:48,460 --> 00:26:51,550 So it kind of goes both ways. But actually, we've been saying, well, 398 00:26:51,633 --> 00:26:55,377 which way is strongest? And actually, we tend to see that actually arts engagement 399 00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:59,210 has more of an influence on future mental health than the other way around. 400 00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:13,209 risk of depression. So therefore, we know that it's not simply your current 401 00:27:13,292 --> 00:27:16,596 depressive symptoms. And basically, through using lots of different 402 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,641 statistical methods, we've actually been able to demonstrate that it is the arts 403 00:27:20,724 --> 00:27:23,472 engagement that is predicting future risk of depression, 404 00:27:23,556 --> 00:27:26,640 even when we've taken account of those bidirectional effects. 405 00:27:27,290 --> 00:27:32,386 I understand that some of this research has also looked at the idea that the arts 406 00:27:32,469 --> 00:27:35,199 might help us to hold off cognitive decline. 407 00:27:35,282 --> 00:27:39,630 Explain this idea to me and tell me about the work you've done here. 408 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,277 So when we engage in the arts, we're really giving our brains quite 409 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:48,607 an effective whole brain workout. We're involving so many different regions of 410 00:27:48,690 --> 00:27:52,660 the brain that might be involved in the visual processing of sheet music, 411 00:27:52,743 --> 00:27:57,102 for example, or the motor response that's required or the memory or the emotions 412 00:27:57,185 --> 00:28:01,377 that are being activated. And what we've seen through a lot of studies now is 413 00:28:01,460 --> 00:28:04,208 that when people are regularly engaged in the arts, 414 00:28:04,292 --> 00:28:08,900 it actually supports their cognition. They develop increased cognitive functioning. 415 00:28:09,860 --> 00:28:14,391 see this evident in neuroimaging studies that have shown increases in the size 416 00:28:14,475 --> 00:28:18,947 and connectivity between different brain regions when people engage regularly 417 00:28:19,030 --> 00:28:23,486 in the arts. But we can also see this over time. As people get older, 418 00:28:23,569 --> 00:28:28,039 those who've got more regular patterns of arts engagement actually have better 419 00:28:28,123 --> 00:28:30,666 preservation of their cognition. And in fact, 420 00:28:30,750 --> 00:28:33,118 they even tend to have younger brain ages. 421 00:28:33,202 --> 00:28:37,672 We can estimate someone's brain age based on how their brain is connecting and 422 00:28:37,755 --> 00:28:40,591 the patterns of connectivity across brain regions. 423 00:28:40,674 --> 00:28:43,218 And people who are amateurs or professionals, 424 00:28:43,301 --> 00:28:48,063 their brains actually are younger as they get older compared to their chronological 425 00:28:48,146 --> 00:28:48,980 age. 426 00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:54,315 to seven years younger as they head into older adulthood, their brains are. 427 00:28:54,399 --> 00:28:58,414 And actually, we've seen that this is related as well to a delayed onset of 428 00:28:58,497 --> 00:29:01,037 the symptoms of dementia, because with dementia, 429 00:29:01,121 --> 00:29:05,027 even if your brain is starting to accumulate some of the plaques that are 430 00:29:05,110 --> 00:29:07,595 typical of conditions like Alzheimer's disease, 431 00:29:07,678 --> 00:29:11,202 people who've got higher levels of what we call cognitive reserve, 432 00:29:11,285 --> 00:29:15,220 they're actually able to compensate for longer. So their brains are able 433 00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:25,022 And what we seem to be finding through lots of different studies now is that arts 434 00:29:25,106 --> 00:29:29,116 engagement is helping to build that cognitive reserve so that people, 435 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,744 even if they start to develop dementia, they can manage cognitively far better 436 00:29:33,827 --> 00:29:34,661 for longer. 437 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,407 And in some ways, there's an analogy here with physical health. 438 00:29:39,490 --> 00:29:43,114 So if you're very healthy, if you're strong and you go through a period 439 00:29:43,197 --> 00:29:47,239 of decline, you have longer to go before you get incapacitated because you have 440 00:29:47,323 --> 00:29:50,790 more muscle to start with, more cardiovascular health to start with. 441 00:29:50,874 --> 00:29:54,498 And you're making the same case, really, for what happens in our minds. 442 00:29:54,581 --> 00:29:58,362 The more we practice certain things, the more we develop a craft, a skill, 443 00:29:58,446 --> 00:29:59,917 a mental ability, a cognitive 444 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,340 This gives us reserves that help us stave off decline for longer periods of time. 445 00:30:05,550 --> 00:30:09,405 That's essentially right as a metaphor. But there used to be a kind of craze 446 00:30:09,488 --> 00:30:12,410 about, well, could we do this through brain training apps, 447 00:30:12,493 --> 00:30:16,503 like games you would do on your phone that would build that cognitive function? 448 00:30:16,586 --> 00:30:19,197 But actually, when the big studies of this came out, 449 00:30:19,281 --> 00:30:22,980 the results weren't that impressive, because it was a kind of realisation 450 00:30:23,063 --> 00:30:26,690 that those games are only practising one cognitive function at a time. 451 00:30:35,550 --> 00:30:38,486 engagement, that whole brain workout that I spoke about. 452 00:30:38,569 --> 00:30:42,691 And that's why I think the arts is such an exciting opportunity for supporting 453 00:30:42,774 --> 00:30:44,230 our brains as we get older. 454 00:30:48,660 --> 00:30:52,412 Across many years of research, scientists like Daisy have been building evidence 455 00:30:52,496 --> 00:30:55,796 to prove that engagement with the arts can make a real difference. 456 00:30:56,190 --> 00:31:00,291 When we come back, how to bring the arts into our daily lives and reap all 457 00:31:00,374 --> 00:31:02,070 the riches they have to offer. 458 00:31:03,330 --> 00:31:05,970 Also, in our companion story to this episode, 459 00:31:06,053 --> 00:31:09,479 available exclusively to subscribers to Hidden Brain Plus, 460 00:31:09,563 --> 00:31:12,770 we dive deeper into the role of the arts in medicine. 461 00:31:13,050 --> 00:31:16,410 If you're a subscriber, that episode is available right now. 462 00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:20,542 It's titled The Healing Arts. If you're not yet a subscriber, 463 00:31:20,626 --> 00:31:25,277 please go to support.hiddenbrain.org. If you're using an Apple device, 464 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,660 please go to apple.co.hiddenbrain. 465 00:31:27,930 --> 00:31:30,981 You can get a free seven-day trial in both places, 466 00:31:31,065 --> 00:31:35,683 and you'll instantly have access to all our subscriber-only content. Again, 467 00:31:35,767 --> 00:31:37,710 that's support.hiddenbrain.org. 468 00:31:37,830 --> 00:31:40,590 or apple.co slash hiddenbrain. 469 00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:44,930 I'm Shankar Vedanta. 470 00:31:58,820 --> 00:32:01,447 This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. 471 00:32:01,530 --> 00:32:06,362 Has this conversation stirred thoughts of encounters you've had with the arts? 472 00:32:06,446 --> 00:32:11,152 If you have a personal story you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain 473 00:32:11,236 --> 00:32:14,556 audience, or a question or comment about this episode, 474 00:32:14,639 --> 00:32:18,841 please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone. 475 00:32:18,924 --> 00:32:23,253 Two or three minutes is plenty. Then, email the file to us at feedback 476 00:32:23,336 --> 00:32:30,090 at hiddenbrain.org. Use the subject line, Again, that's feedback at hiddenbrain.org. 477 00:32:33,550 --> 00:32:37,925 Daisy Fancourt is a psychobiologist at University College London. 478 00:32:38,009 --> 00:32:42,810 She is the author of Art Cure, The Science of How the Arts Save Lives. 479 00:32:43,650 --> 00:32:47,877 Daisy, you say that a first step in accessing the benefits of the arts is 480 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,541 to figure out how to add some aspect of the arts to our lives every single day. 481 00:32:52,624 --> 00:32:54,750 How do you advise people to do this? 482 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,223 I think it's great to think about this in the same way we think about our diet 483 00:33:00,306 --> 00:33:04,270 or our exercise. We're used to target 10,000 steps a day or eat five fruit 484 00:33:04,353 --> 00:33:08,591 and vegetables a day or whatever. And I think having a simple rule like that is 485 00:33:08,674 --> 00:33:11,489 a really great way of starting. Now, for some people, 486 00:33:11,573 --> 00:33:15,154 that might be 10 or 15 or 20 minutes that you're able to put aside. 487 00:33:15,237 --> 00:33:17,779 And there can be really easy ways of doing this, 488 00:33:17,862 --> 00:33:20,980 even sort of simple swaps that you can have in your life. 489 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,078 I can't I live too far away to to cycle or run to work. 490 00:33:29,161 --> 00:33:33,561 But when I'm on my train each day, I'm not allowed to scroll my phone. Instead, 491 00:33:33,645 --> 00:33:37,080 I use that time to sit and listen to music or to read my book. 492 00:33:37,163 --> 00:33:41,760 And that's a really easy way of making sure I get those minutes every single day. 493 00:33:47,750 --> 00:33:50,289 You see that it's important to focus on consistency. 494 00:33:50,372 --> 00:33:54,223 So rather than trying to get four hours in one day and nothing for the rest of 495 00:33:54,306 --> 00:33:57,130 the week, it's more helpful to get 20 minutes every day. 496 00:33:58,730 --> 00:34:02,471 If we're engaging regularly, it's much more likely to become a habit that sticks. 497 00:34:02,555 --> 00:34:05,966 So you're much more likely to find that you don't just cancel that one day 498 00:34:06,049 --> 00:34:09,271 and then realise it's been a couple of weeks since you did everything. 499 00:34:09,354 --> 00:34:12,246 But it also means you can be getting those benefits day to day. 500 00:34:12,329 --> 00:34:16,070 And lots of the immediate benefits people get from arts engagement are for things 501 00:34:16,154 --> 00:34:19,942 like stress and for mood. And those are things that we can all benefit from having 502 00:34:20,026 --> 00:34:22,826 the little pick me ups embedded in our day to day lives. 503 00:34:28,050 --> 00:34:31,967 on sustainability of engagement. So having something that you do as a habit 504 00:34:32,050 --> 00:34:36,340 for months or years of your lives, if you really want to be supporting things like 505 00:34:36,423 --> 00:34:38,687 brain health, for example, as you get older, 506 00:34:38,770 --> 00:34:42,953 or the reduced risk of developing various mental and physical health conditions. 507 00:34:43,037 --> 00:34:47,250 So I think it's really great to find that daily dose that's achievable for you. 508 00:34:47,940 --> 00:34:51,160 You know, some people struggle to start an exercise routine, 509 00:34:51,243 --> 00:34:55,398 and they find it helpful to join an exercise class or maybe to get a trainer. 510 00:34:55,482 --> 00:34:59,280 And in some ways, perhaps the same is true when it comes to the arts. 511 00:35:00,870 --> 00:35:04,800 I think it is true because some people are concerned that they're not artistic 512 00:35:04,883 --> 00:35:07,476 or creative enough or they're not good at something. 513 00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:11,695 They haven't got the right skills. So it can be really effective to start a hobby, 514 00:35:11,778 --> 00:35:15,451 an arts hobby, by joining a local group or by having a couple of lessons, 515 00:35:15,535 --> 00:35:19,156 a bit of instruction to get you going or even using things like YouTube. 516 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,067 So you've got some videos or an online community for some support to get you 517 00:35:23,150 --> 00:35:26,874 going. And actually for things that involve a certain level of skill to be 518 00:35:26,958 --> 00:35:28,810 able to really get the most of them. 519 00:35:30,870 --> 00:35:34,946 learning musical instruments literature now suggests that if you can do something 520 00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:39,055 for 50 hours then actually you tend to have the level of skill that mean you can 521 00:35:39,138 --> 00:35:43,215 really fly with it on your own and really start to enjoy it and get into the flow 522 00:35:43,298 --> 00:35:47,323 of it so that can be good for people to recognize that it might take a few weeks 523 00:35:47,407 --> 00:35:51,072 to feel like they're really comfortable with an artistic hobby so to give 524 00:35:51,156 --> 00:35:54,462 themselves the time to have those experiences and build that level 525 00:35:54,545 --> 00:35:55,378 of comfort. 526 00:35:55,830 --> 00:36:02,310 Music 527 00:36:03,380 --> 00:36:07,505 Intuitively, it seems to me that if you can do an arts activity with someone whom 528 00:36:07,589 --> 00:36:11,870 you like, a friend, it's a little bit like starting a workout routine with a friend. 529 00:36:11,953 --> 00:36:13,720 You're more likely to stick to it. 530 00:36:15,100 --> 00:36:19,099 Definitely. And actually, there are some great ways you can do this in your lives. 531 00:36:19,183 --> 00:36:23,282 So in the UK, actually, we found there are lots of venues like pubs or bars that are 532 00:36:23,365 --> 00:36:27,215 now doing crafts evenings. So you can go alone, you can socialise with friends, 533 00:36:27,298 --> 00:36:31,248 but you can have that artistic focus or you can meet up with friends at a gallery 534 00:36:31,331 --> 00:36:35,081 or an exhibition as a way of having something to look at as well as that time 535 00:36:35,165 --> 00:36:36,265 to talk to each other. 536 00:36:44,580 --> 00:36:48,363 so that they're actually embedding those creative experiences with the social 537 00:36:48,446 --> 00:36:51,860 experiences that they've already made the time for in their diaries. 538 00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:55,946 I want to go back to something that you mentioned a second earlier, 539 00:36:56,029 --> 00:37:00,036 because I think this is a real barrier for many people. You know, people say, 540 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,968 I'm not musical, or I can't draw to save my life. Talk about this barrier, 541 00:37:04,051 --> 00:37:07,421 the sense of shame that we have about our own artistic abilities, 542 00:37:07,504 --> 00:37:10,449 especially compared to what we might see on social media, 543 00:37:10,532 --> 00:37:12,733 other people posting their accomplishments, 544 00:37:12,816 --> 00:37:16,664 how this is in some ways a barrier to us jumping into the water and trying 545 00:37:16,748 --> 00:37:17,810 something ourselves. 546 00:37:18,660 --> 00:37:22,484 I think it's really a sign about how we as societies have sort of taken arts 547 00:37:22,567 --> 00:37:26,288 engagement and actually commodified it. We've sort of made it this object, 548 00:37:26,372 --> 00:37:30,453 this thing that you're supposed to be good at or you have to feel like you've had 549 00:37:30,536 --> 00:37:32,663 particular training to be allowed to do it. 550 00:37:32,747 --> 00:37:36,365 But just look back at young children, because when you look at children, 551 00:37:36,448 --> 00:37:40,118 all children sing, they dance, they make up stories, they act things out, 552 00:37:40,201 --> 00:37:44,520 they constantly draw or craft. They're not worried about whether they're good at it. 553 00:37:48,660 --> 00:37:53,563 creativity so I think it's really helpful to draw on children as inspiration 554 00:37:53,647 --> 00:37:58,813 and remind ourselves that a lot of the health benefits of the arts actually come 555 00:37:58,896 --> 00:38:01,980 from doing it not necessarily being good at it. 556 00:38:02,190 --> 00:38:03,023 Thank you. 557 00:38:03,510 --> 00:38:10,510 *music* 558 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:12,593 Thank you. 559 00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:16,627 Thank you. You say that just as we might plan our meals out, you know, 560 00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:20,390 that on some days we're going to eat in and some days we're going to go to 561 00:38:20,473 --> 00:38:23,695 a restaurant, we can do the same thing when it comes to the arts, 562 00:38:23,778 --> 00:38:26,270 that we can actually plan our artistic calendars? 563 00:38:27,780 --> 00:38:30,246 I think that's a really great way of doing things. 564 00:38:30,329 --> 00:38:34,529 So that might be a case of seeing if there are some exhibitions or a festival coming 565 00:38:34,612 --> 00:38:38,608 up or there are films that you really want to see or that there are certain gigs 566 00:38:38,691 --> 00:38:40,680 or things you need to book tickets for. 567 00:38:57,780 --> 00:39:02,152 And they're also a really good way of making sure that we're just building those 568 00:39:02,236 --> 00:39:06,497 additional routines to increase that overall pattern of engagement that we get 569 00:39:06,580 --> 00:39:07,414 with the arts. 570 00:39:08,370 --> 00:39:10,472 You said something important a second ago, 571 00:39:10,555 --> 00:39:12,813 which is that it's one thing to consume arts, 572 00:39:12,896 --> 00:39:16,143 going to a festival or going to an exhibition, watching a movie. 573 00:39:16,226 --> 00:39:19,577 It's another thing to be producing art. Talk about the difference. 574 00:39:19,660 --> 00:39:23,770 Is there any evidence or research about the benefits of doing one or the other? 575 00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:27,785 Well, if we think back about what ingredients we're getting when we're 576 00:39:27,868 --> 00:39:30,436 engaging with the arts, if we're watching something, 577 00:39:30,519 --> 00:39:32,934 we're being exposed to lots of different stimuli. 578 00:39:33,017 --> 00:39:36,604 But if we're doing it ourselves, we're getting further types of stimuli, 579 00:39:36,687 --> 00:39:40,427 often tactile stimuli, for example, which people can find very therapeutic. 580 00:39:40,511 --> 00:39:44,098 But also if we're building our skills, that relates to those experiences 581 00:39:44,181 --> 00:39:48,227 of mastery that we've spoken about or a feeling of self-esteem or accomplishments 582 00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:50,400 that we can get through the arts as well. 583 00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:58,168 plants and vegetables in our diets, it can be really important to have a variety 584 00:39:58,251 --> 00:40:00,950 of arts experiences because they're exposing us. 585 00:40:01,270 --> 00:40:04,330 to different kinds of ingredients that have health benefits. 586 00:40:04,413 --> 00:40:08,731 And for some health conditions, it doesn't really matter whether you are receptively 587 00:40:08,814 --> 00:40:11,298 watching something versus actively participating. 588 00:40:11,381 --> 00:40:15,017 So for a lot of mental health outcomes, we actually see that both kinds 589 00:40:15,100 --> 00:40:18,580 of engagements have benefits just in slightly different ways for us. 590 00:40:18,663 --> 00:40:21,094 But there are other experiences, other outcomes. 591 00:40:21,177 --> 00:40:24,709 So things like outcomes relating to mobility or to pain, for example, 592 00:40:24,792 --> 00:40:27,957 we're actually having that active ingredient of participating. 593 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,350 It's giving us additional 594 00:40:31,270 --> 00:40:34,770 additional mechanisms that can actually support those health outcomes. 595 00:40:36,140 --> 00:40:40,096 You recommend regularly changing up the kinds of arts that we engage in. 596 00:40:40,179 --> 00:40:44,780 I'm wondering why this is, Daisy. If you love something, why not just stick to it? 597 00:40:45,130 --> 00:40:49,533 So if you love something, then absolutely you can stick to it to a certain degree. 598 00:40:49,616 --> 00:40:53,308 But sometimes what people find is what we call the hedonic treadmill. 599 00:40:53,392 --> 00:40:55,661 If they're doing something that they enjoy, 600 00:40:55,744 --> 00:40:59,764 they can sometimes start to adapt to it and it doesn't necessarily continue 601 00:40:59,848 --> 00:41:02,773 to bring exactly the same kinds of well-being benefits. 602 00:41:02,857 --> 00:41:06,030 So people actually will often organically shift things up. 603 00:41:15,130 --> 00:41:19,087 find that you're setting yourself different kinds of challenges or different 604 00:41:19,170 --> 00:41:23,446 patterns that you're trying to learn but sometimes people can still find that it's 605 00:41:23,529 --> 00:41:27,486 good to mix things up and bring in a completely different type of arts hobby 606 00:41:27,569 --> 00:41:31,048 because that can be a great way of exposing their brains to novelty 607 00:41:31,131 --> 00:41:34,769 to sparking their imagination and to perhaps making sure that whatever 608 00:41:34,852 --> 00:41:39,075 behavioral routines they've got in their lives keep that freshness and excitement 609 00:41:39,158 --> 00:41:39,527 to them 610 00:41:39,610 --> 00:41:46,610 . 611 00:41:47,650 --> 00:41:48,483 Thank you. 612 00:41:48,970 --> 00:41:53,090 *music* 613 00:41:53,470 --> 00:41:59,843 *music* I think many of us do engage with music or the arts, 614 00:41:59,927 --> 00:42:03,486 but we often do it as we're doing something else. So, you know, 615 00:42:03,570 --> 00:42:08,170 you're racing home from work. Maybe you're on a train. You're playing some music, 616 00:42:08,253 --> 00:42:12,853 but you're also reading your email. It's one thing to listen to a beautiful piece 617 00:42:12,937 --> 00:42:17,363 of music with one ear and quite another to immerse ourselves completely in it. 618 00:42:17,447 --> 00:42:21,527 You talked a second ago about how when you are commuting home from work, 619 00:42:21,610 --> 00:42:25,458 you actually are devoting your full attention to the art that you're 620 00:42:25,542 --> 00:42:26,375 consuming. 621 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:31,881 this, the importance of actually sitting and savoring and focusing on the art, 622 00:42:31,964 --> 00:42:34,680 not just doing it with one ear or one eye. 623 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,750 Yes, when we listen to music, for example, quite in the background, 624 00:42:39,833 --> 00:42:43,728 it can still be having some benefits for us, like reducing stress response, 625 00:42:43,811 --> 00:42:46,698 for example. But if it's not getting our full attention, 626 00:42:46,781 --> 00:42:49,721 we're not going to be getting the maximum impact from it. 627 00:42:49,804 --> 00:42:53,964 So I think it's really important that we are consciously aware about how much we 628 00:42:54,047 --> 00:42:57,782 are passively engaging in the arts versus giving it that full attention. 629 00:42:57,865 --> 00:43:01,707 Because when we give it full attention, all of our emotional responses are 630 00:43:01,790 --> 00:43:04,760 heightened. Our stress responses are heightened as well. 631 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,755 to really get into the flow of what we're doing. 632 00:43:08,838 --> 00:43:11,207 And if we can really get into that flow state, 633 00:43:11,290 --> 00:43:15,364 that feeling of complete absorption, where we're forgetting everything else in 634 00:43:15,447 --> 00:43:18,455 our lives, it has profound benefits for our mental health. 635 00:43:18,538 --> 00:43:22,399 And it also has profound benefits for our brain health that actually leads 636 00:43:22,482 --> 00:43:26,450 to synchronization between particular brain regions and enhances our overall 637 00:43:26,533 --> 00:43:30,607 attention as well. So I think it's really great that we can ensure that we are 638 00:43:30,690 --> 00:43:35,137 giving our time and space rather than just always relegating it to background passive 639 00:43:35,220 --> 00:43:36,054 consumption. 640 00:43:36,940 --> 00:43:40,839 I'm thinking, Daisy, about how sometimes when I'm eating some dessert, 641 00:43:40,923 --> 00:43:44,651 if I actually take my time with it and linger over it and savor it, 642 00:43:44,735 --> 00:43:46,067 the dessert tastes good. 643 00:43:46,150 --> 00:43:49,023 two or three times as good as a dessert that I'm rushing through. 644 00:43:49,107 --> 00:43:51,507 And the same thing in some ways is true for art. 645 00:43:52,420 --> 00:43:55,750 Absolutely. We get a much deeper appreciation and enjoyment from it. 646 00:43:55,834 --> 00:43:59,415 Essentially, all of our senses are heightened when we're giving ourselves 647 00:43:59,498 --> 00:44:03,531 that full attention on what we're doing. And we see things like increased dopamine 648 00:44:03,614 --> 00:44:07,580 release or increased feelings of happiness if we're really focusing on the art. 649 00:44:08,710 --> 00:44:13,559 A reminder, do you have a personal story about the effects of the arts in your life 650 00:44:13,642 --> 00:44:18,075 or the life of a family member? If you have a story you are willing to share 651 00:44:18,158 --> 00:44:22,531 with the Hidden Brain audience or a question or comment about this episode, 652 00:44:22,615 --> 00:44:26,572 please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone. 653 00:44:26,656 --> 00:44:31,504 Two or three minutes is plenty. Email it to us at feedback at hiddenbrain.org using 654 00:44:31,588 --> 00:44:35,450 the subject line arts. Again, that's feedback at hiddenbrain.org. 655 00:44:36,010 --> 00:44:40,087 Daisy, I understand that you have come up with a number of ways to incorporate 656 00:44:40,170 --> 00:44:44,330 the arts into your own daily life. Paint a picture for me of what you've done. 657 00:44:44,980 --> 00:44:48,830 One of the things that I've done in my life is I've tried to work out across 658 00:44:48,914 --> 00:44:52,298 the day, when am I most likely to be able to benefit from the arts? 659 00:44:52,382 --> 00:44:56,180 So I've often found that if I swap my alarm on my phone to a really calming 660 00:44:56,264 --> 00:45:00,218 piece of music in the mornings, that really subtle shift can completely change 661 00:45:00,301 --> 00:45:03,116 my mood when I first get up and how I'm starting my day. 662 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,412 I've also found some of the times like in the afternoon when sometimes I have a bit 663 00:45:07,496 --> 00:45:11,139 of an energy dip where I know that actually putting on some music can be 664 00:45:11,223 --> 00:45:13,500 a really great way of freshening up my mood. 665 00:45:14,980 --> 00:45:19,231 to actually take a little bit of a break from work and just help me to shake up 666 00:45:19,314 --> 00:45:23,456 that slump in the afternoon. I'm somebody that really loves to be sociable in 667 00:45:23,539 --> 00:45:27,461 the evenings. So I've really enjoyed being able to find ways of combining 668 00:45:27,544 --> 00:45:30,095 my socialising with also seeing friends as well. 669 00:45:30,178 --> 00:45:33,771 That's felt like a really nice way of not having to find more time, 670 00:45:33,854 --> 00:45:38,160 but being able to maximise the time that I do have to have those more meaningful 671 00:45:38,243 --> 00:45:39,560 experiences with people. 672 00:45:44,980 --> 00:45:49,287 like a book club or I'll go to go and try a new class or a taster session 673 00:45:49,371 --> 00:45:54,280 of something, because I find that that's another great way of keeping my engagement 674 00:45:54,363 --> 00:45:58,490 really novel and fresh. I'm wondering when you socialize with friends, 675 00:45:58,573 --> 00:46:03,061 you sometimes say that you skip having drinks or dinners and try and swap in 676 00:46:03,145 --> 00:46:07,873 an arts activity instead. Can you paint me a picture of a time when you did this 677 00:46:07,956 --> 00:46:09,460 with some friends, Daisy? 678 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,838 I found recently that I've been meeting some friends at galleries or exhibitions 679 00:46:13,921 --> 00:46:17,024 that have been on. And it's a really great way to be catching up. 680 00:46:17,107 --> 00:46:20,504 But whilst you're looking around and able to think about and talk about 681 00:46:20,588 --> 00:46:24,622 the paintings as well. I also think it can be a really nice way if you've got things 682 00:46:24,705 --> 00:46:28,151 you want to talk about with friends that are a little bit harder or more 683 00:46:28,234 --> 00:46:31,974 emotionally intense. To actually do something that's not just sitting opposite 684 00:46:32,057 --> 00:46:33,957 people at a dining table, for example, 685 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,335 performed in kind of public events, it can be a great way of actually giving yourself 686 00:46:44,418 --> 00:46:47,921 a little bit more time and focus to actually have some more difficult 687 00:46:48,004 --> 00:46:48,940 conversations too. 688 00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:56,690 you 689 00:46:56,890 --> 00:47:00,430 Thank you. 690 00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:05,357 I was talking to a friend recently who told me that before she had kids, 691 00:47:05,441 --> 00:47:09,324 she and her husband would go ballroom dancing multiple times a week. 692 00:47:09,408 --> 00:47:13,758 And of course, I'm reflecting now as I'm hearing you speak that in some ways 693 00:47:13,842 --> 00:47:17,726 that has so many different components of what you just talked about. 694 00:47:17,809 --> 00:47:21,284 You're listening to the music, you're dancing, you're social, 695 00:47:21,368 --> 00:47:26,068 you're being with someone. All of these things in some ways have profound benefits 696 00:47:26,152 --> 00:47:26,985 for us. 697 00:47:27,550 --> 00:47:31,687 They do. And they're often much more memorable as events to do together than 698 00:47:31,770 --> 00:47:34,019 simply going out for a meal. And actually, 699 00:47:34,102 --> 00:47:37,517 we do know from a social bonding perspective that if we do arts 700 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,348 with people, so if we sing or we dance with people, 701 00:47:40,432 --> 00:47:45,013 we actually become emotionally closer with them faster than if we just talk or if we 702 00:47:45,096 --> 00:47:49,288 exercise with them. So it's a really lovely thing to do as well if people are 703 00:47:49,371 --> 00:47:51,870 forming new relationships or new friendships, 704 00:47:57,550 --> 00:47:58,670 deeper connection. 705 00:48:11,860 --> 00:48:15,545 Daisy Fancourt is a psychobiologist at University College London. 706 00:48:15,628 --> 00:48:20,008 She is the author of Art Cure, the science of how the arts save lives. Daisy, 707 00:48:20,092 --> 00:48:23,280 thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain. 708 00:48:24,070 --> 00:48:24,903 It's a pleasure. 709 00:48:25,750 --> 00:48:32,750 Thank you. 710 00:48:37,690 --> 00:48:41,411 Laura Querell, Ryan Katz, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury. 711 00:48:41,495 --> 00:48:46,110 Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. 712 00:48:49,150 --> 00:48:53,117 If you like this episode, please think of a friend who might like it as well, 713 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:54,677 and share this episode with them. 714 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,896 If they are new to Hidden Brain, they may also discover other episodes that are 715 00:48:58,979 --> 00:48:59,812 of interest. 716 00:49:03,310 --> 00:49:06,100 I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon. 717 00:49:06,370 --> 00:49:13,370 Music by Ben Thede