WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.400 This is an iHeart Podcast. 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:03.400 Guaranteed human. 00:00:04.260 --> 00:00:06.020 Support comes from Wise, 00:00:06.140 --> 00:00:09.700 the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around the globe. 00:00:10.040 --> 00:00:12.560 You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:16.180 Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. 00:00:16.740 --> 00:00:21.220 Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:24.957 Choose the Wise card. You can spend in over 40 currencies 00:00:25.040 --> 00:00:27.577 with the exchange rate you'd usually see on Google, 00:00:27.660 --> 00:00:29.560 so you can stretch your travel budget. 00:00:29.900 --> 00:00:33.320 Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. 00:00:33.660 --> 00:00:37.160 T's and C's apply. Lisa, tell them about our new show. 00:00:37.500 --> 00:00:40.050 We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. 00:00:40.260 --> 00:00:45.137 I'm Lexi Iwanu. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. 00:00:45.220 --> 00:00:49.660 And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, 00:00:50.040 --> 00:00:51.297 occasionally different opinions. 00:00:51.380 --> 00:00:53.860 And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:58.960 Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, Good Taste is my business. 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:01.675 Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 00:01:01.758 --> 00:01:03.560 or wherever you get your podcasts. 00:01:05.820 --> 00:01:10.237 Hey, dear therapist listeners, it's Lori and Guy, and we have a quick update. 00:01:10.320 --> 00:01:14.598 Many of you have told us that you get something new out of each episode when you 00:01:14.681 --> 00:01:17.080 listen to it again the second or third time. 00:01:17.780 --> 00:01:19.969 In fact, when we listen to the episodes again, 00:01:20.052 --> 00:01:22.652 we also get takeaways we didn't remember were there. 00:01:22.960 --> 00:01:26.635 Therapy is like that, too. There are so many learning moments in a session, 00:01:26.718 --> 00:01:28.857 and it's difficult to absorb them all at once. 00:01:28.940 --> 00:01:31.835 So while we're not taping new episodes right now, 00:01:31.918 --> 00:01:36.211 we are offering you our most popular sessions as encores so that you can 00:01:36.294 --> 00:01:38.300 continue to gain value from them. 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:43.145 We love doing Dear Therapists episodes, but we're each busy with new and exciting 00:01:43.228 --> 00:01:45.980 projects that we hope you will love just as much. 00:01:46.220 --> 00:01:48.954 I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, 00:01:49.038 --> 00:01:51.717 which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts. 00:01:51.800 --> 00:01:56.133 And I have a new book coming out. It's called Mind Over Grind, 00:01:56.216 --> 00:01:59.409 How to Break Free When Work Hijacks Your Life. 00:01:59.492 --> 00:02:02.614 And it will be published by Simon & Schuster. 00:02:02.698 --> 00:02:06.817 You can find out more about it on my website, guywinch.com. 00:02:06.900 --> 00:02:10.170 You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile, 00:02:10.253 --> 00:02:14.017 we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable as we have, 00:02:14.101 --> 00:02:15.117 making them for you. 00:02:15.200 --> 00:02:22.200 hey fellow travelers i'm laurie gottlieb i'm the author of maybe you should talk 00:02:22.756 --> 00:02:23.617 to someone 00:02:23.700 --> 00:02:28.649 and i write the dear therapist advice column for the atlantic and i guy winch i 00:02:28.732 --> 00:02:33.873 wrote emotional first aid and I write the Dear Guy column for TED And this is Dear 00:02:33.956 --> 00:02:38.164 Therapists This week we'll talk through a problem familiar to a lot of people, 00:02:38.247 --> 00:02:42.588 a breakup and a broken heart. It makes me sad because I kind of keep thinking like, 00:02:42.672 --> 00:02:44.787 is there something that I could have done 00:02:44.870 --> 00:02:48.787 differently or better? And they don't have the answer to the question. It's just, 00:02:48.870 --> 00:02:50.287 oh, I just don't love you. And that's what hurts. 00:02:50.370 --> 00:02:53.810 Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself in the process. 00:02:54.990 --> 00:03:01.930 Before we begin, just a note about today's episode. 00:03:02.250 --> 00:03:05.050 As of this taping, we're still in the midst of COVID-19, 00:03:05.450 --> 00:03:08.230 and as a result, we are all taping from home. 00:03:08.590 --> 00:03:11.067 And because homes can be full of background noises 00:03:11.150 --> 00:03:14.250 and signs of life that you wouldn't get in a recording studio, 00:03:14.630 --> 00:03:16.907 you may notice some of that in this episode 00:03:16.990 --> 00:03:18.740 before we worked all the kinks out. 00:03:19.250 --> 00:03:25.390 Thanks for your understanding, and here we go with episode one of Dear Therapists. 00:03:25.750 --> 00:03:26.890 We hope you enjoy it. 00:03:29.430 --> 00:03:32.947 So Guy, I saw this letter in our box this week 00:03:33.030 --> 00:03:35.747 and I wanted to bring it to you specifically 00:03:35.830 --> 00:03:40.890 because of the TED Talk that you did on how to fix a broken heart. 00:03:41.210 --> 00:03:44.570 And this is a letter about heartbreak and here's how it goes. 00:03:45.250 --> 00:03:49.710 Dear Therapists, I'm going through a breakup and having a hard time. 00:03:50.270 --> 00:03:53.875 My boyfriend and I had been dating for nine months when I made the decision 00:03:53.959 --> 00:03:57.072 to break up with him after a month of him telling me he loved me, 00:03:57.155 --> 00:03:59.305 but wasn't sure if it was in the right way. 00:03:59.690 --> 00:04:04.370 It was so hurtful. He couldn't explain why his feelings had changed or when. 00:04:04.710 --> 00:04:07.930 He also didn't want to work on it, but he wanted to be friends. 00:04:08.530 --> 00:04:10.107 The relationship wasn't perfect. 00:04:10.190 --> 00:04:13.000 While we were dating, he started using drugs recreationally, 00:04:13.083 --> 00:04:15.433 and his drinking was becoming a problem for me. 00:04:15.870 --> 00:04:19.319 I knew I had to end it after trying my best to talk about how I was feeling 00:04:19.403 --> 00:04:21.003 and having it fall on deaf ears. 00:04:21.210 --> 00:04:25.550 I was confused because he said that I was perfect, yet he wasn't feeling it, 00:04:25.770 --> 00:04:29.470 but didn't have the courage to break up with me until I ended it with him. 00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:32.667 We tried to keep in touch for a week or two after splitting up, 00:04:32.750 --> 00:04:36.648 but I couldn't maintain the facade, and it was giving me false hope that he'd realize 00:04:36.731 --> 00:04:38.481 what he'd lost and come back to me. 00:04:38.870 --> 00:04:40.330 He didn't and hasn't. 00:04:40.970 --> 00:04:44.647 Now I'm haunted by questions like, why wasn't I enough for him? 00:04:44.730 --> 00:04:48.180 What happened to make him love me differently or cause him to change? 00:04:48.590 --> 00:04:52.027 I worry that he'll find someone else and treat her better and love her. 00:04:52.110 --> 00:04:53.830 I'm worried I was the problem. 00:04:54.390 --> 00:04:59.380 We need to arrange swapping our stuff once the lockdown has lifted which is making me 00:04:59.464 --> 00:05:04.394 anxious I angry and sad and keep bursting into tears sporadically I just exhausted I 00:05:04.477 --> 00:05:05.910 haven been able to sleep 00:05:06.510 --> 00:05:11.369 Do you have any advice for me? Many thanks. Shrina. Okay, good. 00:05:11.452 --> 00:05:13.570 First of all, good for her, 00:05:14.210 --> 00:05:16.567 really good for her for doing the breaking up. 00:05:16.650 --> 00:05:19.167 There are many people in that situation that just 00:05:19.250 --> 00:05:23.801 stay in this very painful position of being with someone who they can tell 00:05:23.884 --> 00:05:25.450 doesn't love them enough. 00:05:26.090 --> 00:05:29.349 But they stay hoping something will change, which it often doesn't, 00:05:29.432 --> 00:05:30.147 usually doesn't. 00:05:30.230 --> 00:05:36.410 So her healthy response of saying, look, if you're not feeling it, then let's not, 00:05:36.650 --> 00:05:40.630 I think is a really healthy response and good for her for pulling the plug. 00:05:41.410 --> 00:05:42.690 Certainly she needed to. 00:05:43.330 --> 00:05:48.919 Yeah. I mean, you know, it's one of those things where she thinks that something 00:05:49.003 --> 00:05:53.477 changed. She says he couldn't explain why what he's feeling changed or when, 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:55.627 but he also didn't want to work on it. 00:05:55.710 --> 00:06:00.131 And he wanted to be friends. And I think that that's what's so confusing for people 00:06:00.214 --> 00:06:04.610 is when you want when the person likes you enough to want to be friends with you, 00:06:04.990 --> 00:06:09.123 but they didn't want to be with you in the way they didn't feel, you know, 00:06:09.207 --> 00:06:11.030 that they were in love with you. 00:06:11.470 --> 00:06:12.807 People feel like, well, why? 00:06:12.890 --> 00:06:17.569 I did something to make this happen, as opposed to maybe it's just not the right 00:06:17.653 --> 00:06:22.174 match. Well, what happens is that at first there's this level of infatuation 00:06:22.257 --> 00:06:24.630 typically that happens, which is temporary. 00:06:24.890 --> 00:06:29.047 That's infatuation is the heady stuff that people get excited about at the beginning. 00:06:29.130 --> 00:06:32.907 It can last, you know, a date and it can last for a while. 00:06:32.990 --> 00:06:37.287 But once the infatuation starts to fade and then there's a more realistic 00:06:37.370 --> 00:06:42.087 assessment of the relationship, then it either transitions into something that's 00:06:42.170 --> 00:06:46.467 deeper, you know, in terms of love and a deeper kind of romantic love and 00:06:46.550 --> 00:06:50.210 the passion is still there or it just doesn't make that leap. 00:06:50.550 --> 00:06:55.130 But this is not about her doing something that changed his feelings. 00:06:55.370 --> 00:07:00.262 It's about something between the chemistry of those two didn't allow his feelings 00:07:00.346 --> 00:07:05.537 to make the leap. But I think that it's important to not blame oneself, 00:07:05.620 --> 00:07:09.847 but to explore and be curious about what didn't work. 00:07:09.930 --> 00:07:11.530 Has this happened to her before? 00:07:11.710 --> 00:07:13.890 What might have been happening here? 00:07:14.190 --> 00:07:16.924 Not not because there's something wrong with her at all, 00:07:17.008 --> 00:07:18.970 just because maybe there was something. 00:07:19.130 --> 00:07:21.147 I think there are two people, you know, in a relationship. 00:07:21.230 --> 00:07:23.867 And so he had his role in it and she had her role in it. 00:07:23.950 --> 00:07:28.763 And just to be aware of her own role in whatever might have happened And I think 00:07:28.846 --> 00:07:33.169 there this other part of it that has nothing to do with him that helpful 00:07:33.253 --> 00:07:36.597 for her to consider too which is when you get into a new 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:40.811 relationship, there's always so much hope that this is going to be it. 00:07:40.894 --> 00:07:46.379 This is going to be the one. I will not be dating anymore. This is my person. 00:07:46.463 --> 00:07:49.777 And I think that when it doesn't work out, 00:07:49.860 --> 00:07:56.860 there's the loss of the actual person, but there's also the loss of the idea that you 00:07:57.365 --> 00:07:58.077 were done 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:03.081 dating. And that is its own loss that is unrelated to the person that is no longer 00:08:03.165 --> 00:08:03.997 there. And then 00:08:04.080 --> 00:08:09.348 there's a third loss, which is just the loss of what it's like to be in 00:08:09.431 --> 00:08:11.157 a relationship, which is 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:14.509 the dailiness of it, the person that you tell what happened today, 00:08:14.593 --> 00:08:16.237 the person you check in with every 00:08:16.320 --> 00:08:19.929 day, the person you're cooking dinner with. So all of that, 00:08:20.012 --> 00:08:22.057 then you have to go back to square 00:08:22.140 --> 00:08:26.049 one again. The more number of times that you do this, 00:08:26.132 --> 00:08:29.137 the harder it is every time when you have 00:08:29.220 --> 00:08:31.176 to start over at square one. I agree. I think, 00:08:31.259 --> 00:08:33.437 I so agree with what you said, because I think that 00:08:33.520 --> 00:08:39.167 that loss of the dream is often bigger than the loss of the person. Yes. 00:08:39.250 --> 00:08:41.077 You're listening to Dear 00:08:41.160 --> 00:08:44.360 Therapist from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break. 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:51.097 Support comes from Wise, the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around 00:08:51.180 --> 00:08:54.640 the globe. You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. 00:08:55.060 --> 00:08:58.260 Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. 00:08:58.800 --> 00:09:03.300 Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. 00:09:03.740 --> 00:09:04.980 Choose the Wise card. 00:09:05.500 --> 00:09:08.899 You can spend in over 40 currencies with the exchange rate you'd usually see 00:09:08.982 --> 00:09:11.432 on Google, so you can stretch your travel budget. 00:09:11.980 --> 00:09:15.317 Be smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today. 00:09:15.400 --> 00:09:19.800 T's and C's apply. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. 00:09:20.260 --> 00:09:22.660 Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. 00:09:23.020 --> 00:09:25.280 It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwano. 00:09:25.560 --> 00:09:29.600 We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. 00:09:29.860 --> 00:09:34.240 And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, 00:09:34.660 --> 00:09:35.817 occasionally different opinions. 00:09:35.900 --> 00:09:38.360 And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. 00:09:38.760 --> 00:09:40.500 I'm not going to get anywhere. 00:09:40.640 --> 00:09:42.700 You're fighting. That is wild. 00:09:42.980 --> 00:09:44.530 I learned that about you today. 00:09:45.400 --> 00:09:48.717 Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, 00:09:48.800 --> 00:09:52.717 Good Taste is my business, and I've always got something to say. 00:09:52.800 --> 00:09:56.957 If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. 00:09:57.040 --> 00:09:59.927 We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, 00:10:00.010 --> 00:10:02.986 Getting older and a little wiser. We're best friends, 00:10:03.070 --> 00:10:07.778 but we don't always agree because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, 00:10:07.861 --> 00:10:10.895 I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, 00:10:10.978 --> 00:10:14.358 but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. 00:10:14.442 --> 00:10:18.226 Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. 00:10:18.310 --> 00:10:21.286 Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, 00:10:21.369 --> 00:10:25.410 Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. 00:10:28.350 --> 00:10:30.733 This is Dear Therapists. Thanks for listening. Well, 00:10:30.816 --> 00:10:34.053 let's talk to her and get some more information and then give her some 00:10:34.136 --> 00:10:36.786 suggestions. Yeah, I'm excited to find out some more. 00:10:39.030 --> 00:10:43.325 Well, Shreena, welcome and thank you so much for sending us your letter. 00:10:43.408 --> 00:10:48.311 I think it's something that so many people are dealing with right now and we would 00:10:48.394 --> 00:10:53.358 love to give you some guidance on this and also hear a little bit more about what's 00:10:53.441 --> 00:10:57.150 going on. That would be wonderful. Thank you for inviting me. 00:10:57.730 --> 00:11:00.199 are very, very welcome. And let me just say, 00:11:00.283 --> 00:11:04.724 heartbreak is rough to begin with. It's really rough during a shutdown because 00:11:04.808 --> 00:11:07.625 that makes everything a little bit more difficult. 00:11:07.708 --> 00:11:10.526 I think you said it was a nine-month relationship. 00:11:10.609 --> 00:11:14.670 I'm just curious about what you might have noticed or what things that 00:11:14.770 --> 00:11:21.770 registered as maybe problematic? Well, we met at a party and he was... 00:11:22.990 --> 00:11:27.670 sort of, not sort of a neutral friend of ours, but she was 00:11:27.790 --> 00:11:31.927 quite into him and he didn't really feel the same way and he did kind of lead her 00:11:32.011 --> 00:11:36.252 on and she was an old friend of mine that was my first sort of thing of like well I 00:11:36.335 --> 00:11:40.212 don't know if I want to get involved in this so I actually said in the first 00:11:40.296 --> 00:11:44.120 instance like no I'm not interested we left it for two weeks and then we he 00:11:44.204 --> 00:11:48.185 called me just to say look I just wanted to make sure that you're okay because 00:11:48.268 --> 00:11:49.310 that said friend had 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:52.761 started sending me really horrible messages and to him as well. 00:11:52.844 --> 00:11:57.086 And he sort of apologized on her behalf and said to me that what he did was wrong 00:11:57.169 --> 00:12:01.091 and he shouldn't have done it, but he really wants to take me out on a date 00:12:01.174 --> 00:12:05.309 and blah, blah. So then we ended up going on a date and it kind of ignited very 00:12:05.393 --> 00:12:06.077 quickly and 00:12:06.160 --> 00:12:10.853 I was a bit anxious about that, but it was also nice because I was engaged back 00:12:10.936 --> 00:12:15.025 in 2016, but that didn't work out. The first red flag, I have to say, 00:12:15.108 --> 00:12:19.340 I don't know if that would count as one, but the first one was when... 00:12:19.660 --> 00:12:22.065 He lives in London. I live in outside of London. 00:12:22.149 --> 00:12:26.265 So the culture in London is a lot like I'm guessing New York City where it's like 00:12:26.348 --> 00:12:28.494 going out and then drinking and having fun. 00:12:28.578 --> 00:12:32.694 And I noticed that he was drinking a lot. He was meant to come and meet me and he 00:12:32.777 --> 00:12:34.540 didn't. And I just said, I'm done. 00:12:34.750 --> 00:12:38.421 I'm not hanging around waiting for you. I don't want to do this anymore because 00:12:38.504 --> 00:12:40.404 obviously you're choosing to going out 00:12:40.690 --> 00:12:44.416 as opposed to hanging out with me, which is what we planned to do. 00:12:44.499 --> 00:12:47.820 But he was crying and hysterical. And he was just like, oh, 00:12:47.904 --> 00:12:51.802 I've made a mistake. This is a wake up call. You mean too much to me. 00:12:51.886 --> 00:12:54.342 I don't want to lose you. So we tried again. 00:12:54.425 --> 00:12:58.670 And that's why I feel like I'm so angry, because if I just stuck to my guns 00:12:58.753 --> 00:13:01.555 the first time, then I wouldn't be where I am now. 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:06.230 So that that happened pretty early on when you knew that there was something else 00:13:06.313 --> 00:13:08.910 that you weren't OK with. Yeah. Tell me what. 00:13:09.010 --> 00:13:10.367 made you 00:13:10.450 --> 00:13:14.599 overlook that? What were the positive things about the relationship that made 00:13:14.682 --> 00:13:18.090 you think, oh, but it's okay. I want to see what happens here. 00:13:18.610 --> 00:13:23.550 I think it was because I've never had a guy – 00:13:23.650 --> 00:13:28.665 like cry about how sorry they were. I've never had a guy actually express that sort 00:13:28.749 --> 00:13:33.110 of emotion. I noticed that my past relationships, the guys that I were, 00:13:33.250 --> 00:13:36.602 was seeing or was dating were quite emotionally unavailable. 00:13:36.685 --> 00:13:39.437 So they weren't ever very emotionally expressive. 00:13:39.520 --> 00:13:41.280 So this guy was like, 00:13:41.560 --> 00:13:45.803 really upset and I was just thinking, wow, so maybe he must be really sorry. 00:13:45.887 --> 00:13:48.821 And I kind of felt, and this is going to sound awful, 00:13:48.904 --> 00:13:53.432 but I felt guilty because I felt like I knew better and I felt like perhaps maybe 00:13:53.515 --> 00:13:53.807 he... 00:13:53.890 --> 00:13:58.033 this was his first major relationship. The last relationship he was in, 00:13:58.117 --> 00:14:01.189 he was 16. They finished when he was 21. He's now 27. 00:14:01.272 --> 00:14:05.892 So this was his first adult, I would say, relationship. So I thought, you know, 00:14:05.975 --> 00:14:08.868 I know better. He didn't mean it. He wants to try. 00:14:08.952 --> 00:14:11.690 He's made that sort of apology. Then surely... 00:14:11.800 --> 00:14:12.887 I should... 00:14:12.970 --> 00:14:17.070 try to and not just give up at the first hurdle so I think it was just sort of 00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:22.659 Yeah. I don't know if that was it. Well, clearly wasn't the right thing to do. 00:14:22.742 --> 00:14:27.774 Well, you know, you said this was he's 27 and this was the first relationship 00:14:27.858 --> 00:14:33.089 for him since a long time. How old are you and what were your relationships like 00:14:33.173 --> 00:14:36.610 before this? So I'm 29. I'm going to be 30 on Sunday. 00:14:36.694 --> 00:14:40.663 My first relationship was, well, my engagement ended in 2016. 00:14:40.746 --> 00:14:45.845 But I was with that guy for like five years and he said that he didn't love me 00:14:45.929 --> 00:14:46.762 anymore. 00:14:47.560 --> 00:14:50.027 around looked at me in the house that we were living in and just said oh I don't 00:14:50.110 --> 00:14:53.719 love you anymore And I had to leave. So I was like, oh, OK. 00:14:53.802 --> 00:14:57.410 How did you grieve the loss of that relationship? 00:14:57.850 --> 00:15:02.942 I didn't actually. I actually got straight into like a rebound relationship 00:15:03.026 --> 00:15:07.623 with someone who was just as probably in as much of a mess as I was. 00:15:07.706 --> 00:15:12.806 And that went on for like a year. And I think I just jumped into something else 00:15:12.890 --> 00:15:17.177 and I didn't have a very good family life. And I was just kind of, 00:15:17.260 --> 00:15:21.375 didn't want to really deal with the fact that I had lost someone that was so 00:15:21.458 --> 00:15:25.131 important to me. So I didn't really grieve that relationship at all. 00:15:25.214 --> 00:15:28.335 I think that when I managed to finally escape the rebound, 00:15:28.418 --> 00:15:32.588 I think a lot of that was grieving was done in between those sorts of things. 00:15:32.671 --> 00:15:37.007 You know, Guy, I want to say, I want to say this sort of to Guy and also to you, 00:15:37.090 --> 00:15:41.620 Shreena, that what I'm noticing, and I'll bet that Guy is thinking the same thing, 00:15:47.260 --> 00:15:51.798 to realize that a relationship is not actually working for you and the time 00:15:51.881 --> 00:15:54.693 that it ends, even if you didn't end it, right? 00:15:54.777 --> 00:15:59.376 You're not spending as much time with someone who isn't right for you or who 00:15:59.459 --> 00:16:04.243 isn't meeting your needs or who isn't really appropriate in terms of where they 00:16:04.326 --> 00:16:09.440 are in their life or what their readiness is for the kind of relationship you want. 00:16:10.150 --> 00:16:15.557 Well, I mean, I hope so. I think the thing is, is that I guess... 00:16:15.640 --> 00:16:18.583 It makes me sad because I kind of keep thinking, like, 00:16:18.666 --> 00:16:21.017 is there something that I could have done? 00:16:21.100 --> 00:16:26.273 differently or better because it kind of just feels like the go-to sentence 00:16:26.357 --> 00:16:31.110 for both Joe, who is my recent ex, and Matt, who's my ex-fiance, was, 00:16:31.193 --> 00:16:36.660 I just don't love you anymore. And I just, that's what makes me think, well... 00:16:36.940 --> 00:16:41.066 how, why, when, and they don't have the answer to the question. It's just, oh, 00:16:41.149 --> 00:16:44.980 I just don't love you. And that's what hurts because it's kind of like, 00:16:45.430 --> 00:16:49.035 well, then what did I do? And then, and then it's just, it's just, 00:16:49.118 --> 00:16:50.807 you can't answer that question. 00:16:50.890 --> 00:16:53.461 Yeah. You know, I have a little bit of suspicion. 00:16:53.544 --> 00:16:57.848 I'm not sure about this at all, mind you, but I have a little suspicion that it's 00:16:57.931 --> 00:17:00.340 more about what you don't do than what you do. 00:17:00.423 --> 00:17:03.589 And why I say it might be related more to what you don't do, 00:17:03.673 --> 00:17:07.543 it's possible that when you have a background that's a little tumultuous, 00:17:07.627 --> 00:17:11.310 it makes your tolerance for certain things higher than it should be. 00:17:20.890 --> 00:17:23.873 You just learn to tolerate that. It doesn't, you know, 00:17:23.956 --> 00:17:27.790 disturb you as much as it might disturb someone else who doesn't have 00:17:27.874 --> 00:17:31.935 that tolerance. And so it's possible with some of these guys that you are 00:17:32.018 --> 00:17:35.171 overlooking things because, yes, it's slightly a problem, 00:17:35.255 --> 00:17:39.600 but I can manage it. When the problem with managing it is that it communicates 00:17:39.683 --> 00:17:43.090 to them that you're OK with it when, in essence, you're not. 00:17:43.870 --> 00:17:46.742 Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, that is right. 00:17:46.826 --> 00:17:51.734 I even said that if I take you back, then I'm sort of enabling this behavior 00:17:51.817 --> 00:17:54.510 and saying that it's OK, I can't do that. 00:17:54.700 --> 00:17:58.236 But I guess I'm just a bit of a sucker because he was like, oh, no, no, 00:17:58.320 --> 00:18:02.162 I won't. Like, you know, this is my wake up call. I've changed. I've changed. 00:18:02.245 --> 00:18:04.456 It was just kind of like downhill from there. 00:18:04.540 --> 00:18:07.209 Here's something I want you to remember for next time. 00:18:07.293 --> 00:18:11.135 And that is that when he has this moment where he's crying and he's promising 00:18:11.218 --> 00:18:14.940 and it's all going to be great. It's OK to give the person a chance. But. 00:18:15.130 --> 00:18:19.399 in this condition. You give them a chance and then you have your eyes 00:18:19.483 --> 00:18:24.383 extraordinarily wide open for the first violation of whatever that promise was. 00:18:24.466 --> 00:18:28.105 And then you have to really call them on it and say, uh-uh, 00:18:28.188 --> 00:18:31.907 it might be half an hour later, a day, a week, a month. But 00:18:31.990 --> 00:18:36.113 It's that first time where they're violating whatever the promise is that you 00:18:36.196 --> 00:18:40.429 can't overlook it, because if you do, then they just fall into the old behavior 00:18:40.512 --> 00:18:43.925 immediately. And there goes the promise. If you call them on it, 00:18:44.008 --> 00:18:46.601 they have a decision point to make of either. OK, 00:18:46.685 --> 00:18:50.753 either they're back in or they're not. But at least in that point, you know, 00:18:50.837 --> 00:18:53.266 you know, you had been asking about, you know, 00:18:53.349 --> 00:18:56.190 what did I do to make them fall out of love with me? 00:19:01.990 --> 00:19:07.378 as opposed to wondering how can I be a chameleon and be the kind of person 00:19:07.461 --> 00:19:11.010 that they want me to be so that they'll love me. 00:19:11.350 --> 00:19:15.631 Yeah, I think that's my main problem because I find myself trying to mould 00:19:15.714 --> 00:19:19.877 myself into shapes for my partner the way that they want me to be. Like, 00:19:19.961 --> 00:19:24.183 for example, with Joe, he wasn't happy with my life choices. He was like, 00:19:24.266 --> 00:19:27.544 you shouldn't be doing this, you shouldn't be doing that. 00:19:27.628 --> 00:19:32.110 And it kind of just made me feel like, why can't you just accept me as I am? 00:19:32.350 --> 00:19:36.570 And he just said, oh, because I'm trying to push you to be better because you're so 00:19:36.654 --> 00:19:40.200 bright and you're so intelligent and you can do this, you can do that, 00:19:40.283 --> 00:19:44.193 but you've got comfortable. And it just made me feel really bad about myself. 00:19:44.276 --> 00:19:47.750 And I think that's really a good point that I have tried to like... 00:19:47.980 --> 00:19:52.840 change who I am to try and make my partner's I guess, like me more. 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.972 Well, I think in this last relationship, it sounds like you were trying to be 00:19:57.055 --> 00:19:59.937 the cool girl, the laid back girl, the girl who's like, 00:20:00.020 --> 00:20:04.734 Yeah, I'm cool with that. It's OK. And the more that people try to say, 00:20:04.817 --> 00:20:10.072 I'm going to be someone who I'm not to become the person that this other person 00:20:10.156 --> 00:20:14.480 wants, the less chance that relationship is going to work. Yeah. 00:20:15.620 --> 00:20:19.580 Yeah. I don't know. I just, I feel like, I don't know what 00:20:20.090 --> 00:20:23.133 I don't know. I don't know. I kept saying this to him. I was like, what did I do? 00:20:23.217 --> 00:20:23.967 I don't understand. 00:20:24.050 --> 00:20:26.863 And he was like, I don't understand either. He's like, I do love you, 00:20:26.946 --> 00:20:28.625 but I don't know if it's in the right way. 00:20:28.709 --> 00:20:31.060 And I just felt like I was banging my head against a wall. 00:20:31.143 --> 00:20:34.100 And it's so hard to not feel like, you're the one 00:20:34.190 --> 00:20:39.294 You lose all your self-esteem. So you handed your self-esteem to him to be 00:20:39.377 --> 00:20:41.550 the holder of your self-esteem. 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:42.793 Yeah. 00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:46.770 That's a very dangerous way to go about 00:20:47.060 --> 00:20:51.657 being in relationship with somebody. Yeah. You talk a lot about 00:20:51.740 --> 00:20:55.992 what you thought he liked about you and then suddenly he wasn't as invested. 00:20:56.075 --> 00:21:00.384 What did you like about him? I'm not hearing anything positive about him yet. 00:21:00.468 --> 00:21:03.351 Yeah, I mean, he made me laugh. He was really funny. 00:21:03.434 --> 00:21:06.602 And we went out and experienced a lot of things together. 00:21:06.686 --> 00:21:11.052 We always were doing things. It's a complete polar opposite of my relationship 00:21:11.135 --> 00:21:14.417 with my ex, where we just sat and did nothing in the house. 00:21:14.501 --> 00:21:17.726 So we were like always doing something. It was always fun. 00:21:17.809 --> 00:21:19.920 There was always something happening. 00:21:21.740 --> 00:21:23.100 go, go, go. And 00:21:23.300 --> 00:21:28.375 I, you know, I liked that. And I mean, I hate to sound really superficial, 00:21:28.459 --> 00:21:31.791 but he was really good looking as well. So, yeah, 00:21:31.875 --> 00:21:36.671 I think those are like the three things that I really liked about him. 00:21:36.754 --> 00:21:40.240 You know, what's interesting is that I think that. 00:21:40.520 --> 00:21:42.000 Sometimes you... 00:21:42.170 --> 00:21:48.290 and by you I mean most people, try and make a relationship work in the moment. 00:21:48.950 --> 00:21:53.050 without thinking enough about whether it's sustainable, long term. 00:21:53.450 --> 00:21:57.807 And when you start thinking long term, you have to ask yourself whether you want 00:21:57.891 --> 00:22:02.082 to sign on for that forever with that person who will always know better than 00:22:02.165 --> 00:22:06.800 you what's best for you and always have an opinion about what you shouldn't shouldn't 00:22:06.883 --> 00:22:09.631 do. I mean, and this is what I said to him. I said, 00:22:09.714 --> 00:22:13.295 I've always supported you, yet you can't do the same thing for me. 00:22:13.378 --> 00:22:17.877 I don't understand why that's the case. So you said you're about to turn 30. Yeah. 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:22.150 You've gone through, you had a long engagement that didn't work out. 00:22:22.234 --> 00:22:26.675 And now here you are. And it sounds like you're worried about, you know, 00:22:26.758 --> 00:22:30.697 meeting somebody. And then you had this idea of, oh, here it is. 00:22:30.781 --> 00:22:34.300 Here's my answer. Here's my solution in the form of Joe. 00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:39.465 And there he was. And he materialized. And it all sounded so exciting. 00:22:39.548 --> 00:22:42.574 And we're going to get married. And we're so, this is so fun. 00:22:42.657 --> 00:22:46.480 And he's so different from my former fiance. And this is going to be great. 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:50.160 that trouble being loved and learning to love, 00:22:50.244 --> 00:22:54.182 that's all going to be in the past. And I don't have to carry that around with me 00:22:54.265 --> 00:22:56.415 anymore, because now I'm going to be saved. 00:22:56.660 --> 00:22:57.837 by this person. 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:02.154 And so you're grieving the loss of Joe, but I think he's the most insignificant 00:23:02.237 --> 00:23:04.996 part of the loss that you're experiencing right now. 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:08.985 And I think you're so fixated on him and why he decided that this was not 00:23:09.069 --> 00:23:13.030 the relationship that he wanted, that you're not really grieving the parts 00:23:13.113 --> 00:23:17.238 that are going to be much more helpful for you to grieve so that you can find 00:23:17.321 --> 00:23:20.600 the relationship that you want when you're ready to do that. 00:23:20.990 --> 00:23:24.510 And that's this idea that there's going to be some kind of 00:23:24.710 --> 00:23:29.074 reciprocity in a romantic relationship for you that I don't think you've really had, 00:23:29.158 --> 00:23:33.204 that you're going to have something different from what you had in your family 00:23:33.288 --> 00:23:35.428 that I don't think that you've really had, 00:23:35.512 --> 00:23:39.717 that someone is going to save you from having to deal with the pain of your past, 00:23:39.801 --> 00:23:42.153 which no person, no matter how great they are, 00:23:42.236 --> 00:23:45.859 even if they do happen to be the right person, can save you from that. 00:23:45.943 --> 00:23:47.667 They can't. But I'm going to say, 00:23:47.750 --> 00:23:53.436 Instead of focusing so much on Joe and trying to get into his head for an answer 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:58.700 that you will honestly never have, the better use of your time is to say, 00:23:58.783 --> 00:24:03.170 why is it so painful for me to be in relationship with people? 00:24:03.254 --> 00:24:08.723 Why do I allow people to do things in relationship that are not okay with me? 00:24:08.806 --> 00:24:14.275 Those are going to be really important questions for you to get curious about 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:19.090 as you're grieving this loss. And it will also help you 00:24:19.280 --> 00:24:23.324 to not have so much sharpness around the pain of the future that just went away, 00:24:23.407 --> 00:24:27.451 because I think it will help you to get clarity around that it is not the future 00:24:27.535 --> 00:24:28.368 that you wanted. 00:24:28.850 --> 00:24:34.048 Yeah, I think you're right there. I mean, what's also quite interesting is that when 00:24:34.131 --> 00:24:38.763 you pointed out about the stuff with the family and my tolerance for things 00:24:38.846 --> 00:24:43.310 that are unacceptable is quite high. And I obviously, I don't know why. 00:24:43.580 --> 00:24:48.466 that is um and that is really interesting that you put it that way that i would like 00:24:48.549 --> 00:24:53.375 to like look at that as opposed to why i'm trying to get into joe's head and figure 00:24:53.459 --> 00:24:58.167 out why this thing didn't work i think that the only problem is that when i think 00:24:58.250 --> 00:25:00.720 about it i i don't know what 00:25:00.860 --> 00:25:04.314 And the answer and the thing that just keeps coming back to me is just 00:25:04.397 --> 00:25:08.103 this massive feeling of pain. And I don't even know if I want to open that. 00:25:08.187 --> 00:25:12.095 And I don't know whether that's just that I'm scared of being on my own because 00:25:12.178 --> 00:25:15.935 everyone sort of has a family. And I've never really had one, like you said. 00:25:16.019 --> 00:25:19.826 We've been quite fractured. I don't speak to my brother for personal reasons. 00:25:19.909 --> 00:25:23.060 I don't speak to any of my cousins, really. I am quite isolated. 00:25:23.143 --> 00:25:25.707 And I think that's probably why I cling on to that. 00:25:25.790 --> 00:25:28.823 romantic partners because I keep thinking, oh, 00:25:28.907 --> 00:25:31.669 at least I won't be on my own then. Right. 00:25:31.752 --> 00:25:37.160 But you want a partner and future in the future family that do accept you 00:25:37.460 --> 00:25:43.860 for who you are that do recognize all that you have to offer that do value 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:50.427 having you. And so it's super important that that is what you do. 00:25:50.510 --> 00:25:56.727 Look for. in another person, not just their presence or acceptance, but 00:25:56.810 --> 00:26:01.380 They're valuing you for who you are. When I hear about Joe, who's a pardier, 00:26:01.464 --> 00:26:05.750 and you describe yourself as, I like to go to lectures and read books. 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:09.673 To me, you know, to me, it sounds like he does the math, 00:26:09.756 --> 00:26:14.292 looks forward and goes like, yeah, maybe that's not what I want to do in life. 00:26:14.376 --> 00:26:19.089 So when you're looking for reasons, one of them is that you just don't sound like 00:26:19.172 --> 00:26:20.120 the best person. 00:26:20.300 --> 00:26:25.017 match to be honest with you just in terms of what you want out of life how you live 00:26:25.100 --> 00:26:29.469 your life yeah i mean he went oh we don't have many interests and i said well 00:26:29.553 --> 00:26:34.212 with all due respect i've taken so much of an interest in the things that you like 00:26:34.295 --> 00:26:38.838 and you have actually said to my face that you find the stuff that i like boring 00:26:38.921 --> 00:26:43.214 that right there is So it's almost like a lot of times when people say, 00:26:43.297 --> 00:26:45.990 I don't know why this person broke up with me. 00:26:46.073 --> 00:26:50.780 It's not even that you have to intuit it. It's that they've actually told you. 00:26:51.110 --> 00:26:54.316 Why? They may not have told you in the breakup conversation, 00:26:54.399 --> 00:26:57.880 which would be more ideal. But along the way in the relationship, 00:26:57.963 --> 00:27:00.430 they've they've kind of sprinkled in reasons. 00:27:00.860 --> 00:27:04.138 And sometimes people choose not to hear those reasons. 00:27:04.222 --> 00:27:08.621 I think what happens with you, Sreena, is that any guy that you're with, 00:27:08.704 --> 00:27:13.560 whether they want to be with you, becomes a referendum on how lovable you are. 00:27:13.730 --> 00:27:20.410 Yes. Yeah, that sounds about right. And that's why you go... 00:27:20.630 --> 00:27:25.459 to such great lengths to try to convince them that the relationship is viable. 00:27:25.543 --> 00:27:28.483 And so I imagine that when he did say, you know, 00:27:28.566 --> 00:27:33.269 I don't think we're right for each other, you heard it as something is wrong 00:27:33.353 --> 00:27:37.175 with you. Something is not something is not lovable about you. 00:27:37.258 --> 00:27:41.961 And you're trying to say, I'll do anything I can to be up to become lovable. 00:27:42.045 --> 00:27:44.690 And the thing is, Sreena, you are lovable. 00:27:44.780 --> 00:27:50.421 I And you're also choosing people who are not right for you because it feels 00:27:50.504 --> 00:27:55.538 familiar to you. Because that kind of love of not having that feeling of ease, 00:27:55.621 --> 00:28:00.261 not having that feeling of I don't have to walk on eggshells and I trust 00:28:00.344 --> 00:28:04.065 this person's love. And I truly love them too, by the way, 00:28:04.149 --> 00:28:08.264 because I don't hear that you really loved either of these guys, 00:28:08.347 --> 00:28:09.790 your ex-fiance or Joe. 00:28:15.650 --> 00:28:19.905 your family, which were very problematic. And when you first meet these guys, 00:28:19.989 --> 00:28:22.130 you think, oh, this will be different. 00:28:22.340 --> 00:28:25.560 This time, it's going to be different. But really, 00:28:25.643 --> 00:28:30.778 you have radar for people who will provide the same kind of environment for you 00:28:30.862 --> 00:28:33.240 that you had growing up. And then... 00:28:33.620 --> 00:28:37.420 Again, you feel like, oh, here it is again. See, I'm not lovable. 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:42.500 Yeah, that sounds pretty much spot on, to be honest. 00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:46.560 I think you're right about the, like, it feels familiar. 00:28:46.644 --> 00:28:50.409 I feel like I need to work for it and I need to prove that I'm worthy of being 00:28:50.493 --> 00:28:53.765 in a relationship. I mean, he was constantly on his phone and, like, 00:28:53.848 --> 00:28:56.874 we'd be talking and I'd be like, you're not even present. Like, 00:28:56.957 --> 00:28:59.341 you're not listening to me. And it was just, like, 00:28:59.425 --> 00:29:01.325 sort of fighting for his relationship. 00:29:01.430 --> 00:29:05.277 sort of attention and then when he'd do something so like 00:29:05.360 --> 00:29:08.229 He said to me, I found a book that reminded me of use and he bought it 00:29:08.312 --> 00:29:11.054 for me. And I just burst into tears because I was like, oh, my God, 00:29:11.137 --> 00:29:14.637 this is so lovely. You're so amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:19.014 over a book because I felt like he knew that that's what would make me happy 00:29:19.097 --> 00:29:22.901 is just He saw something, thought of me, and it was a book, and I loved to read. 00:29:22.984 --> 00:29:26.653 Because it was that unusual for him to do something so thoughtful, apparently, 00:29:26.737 --> 00:29:28.237 that it touched you so deeply. 00:29:28.610 --> 00:29:32.050 It's almost like, Shrena, that... 00:29:32.270 --> 00:29:36.830 You were so hungry for this kind of love growing up. And so as an adult, 00:29:36.914 --> 00:29:40.958 you'll take the crumb and the crumb means everything. The crumb, 00:29:41.042 --> 00:29:45.150 you try to get the crumb to fill you up, the giving you the book. 00:29:45.234 --> 00:29:50.246 That was a crumb that he gave you. And for you, it became an entire meal. Yeah. 00:29:50.329 --> 00:29:51.490 Yeah. That's what. 00:29:57.910 --> 00:29:59.790 So, Laurie. 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:07.000 Do we have some advice? Yeah. What I'm thinking about is that endings matter 00:30:07.396 --> 00:30:08.229 a lot. 00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.392 And they kind of set the tone for how we move on. 00:30:12.475 --> 00:30:18.106 They help us sometimes move on in a different way if we can have a better 00:30:18.189 --> 00:30:23.015 ending. And so... I'm thinking about how volatile your ending was. And it was, 00:30:23.099 --> 00:30:26.486 there was a lot of anger. Nobody really talked about anything. 00:30:26.569 --> 00:30:29.467 And I'm thinking about how volatile your ending was. 00:30:29.550 --> 00:30:34.794 I feel like here's an opportunity for you to have a different ending with him where 00:30:34.877 --> 00:30:40.485 you You give him some information about you that is not angry, 00:30:40.568 --> 00:30:46.370 that's very composed, but that's also very much your truth. And. 00:30:46.470 --> 00:30:50.081 I'm just thinking about what that might sound like. You know, 00:30:50.165 --> 00:30:54.987 I think the easiest thing for him to hear and the most truthful thing is that you 00:30:55.071 --> 00:30:59.348 were not the right match for one another. But you might say to him that, 00:30:59.432 --> 00:31:02.559 you know, when you're reflecting on the relationship, 00:31:02.642 --> 00:31:06.314 you realize that you had a lot of fun together in some points. 00:31:06.397 --> 00:31:11.220 But in terms of the long term, you weren't well suited because you have different 00:31:11.303 --> 00:31:15.581 interests and probably different expectations about how you want to live 00:31:15.664 --> 00:31:16.387 your life. 00:31:16.470 --> 00:31:23.222 and that it was a good run for a while, and just something very simple in that way 00:31:23.305 --> 00:31:27.390 that emphasizes that you're okay with the ending. 00:31:27.990 --> 00:31:34.526 But have this nicely composed, calm, kind of reflective notion of fun for a while. 00:31:34.609 --> 00:31:39.130 I appreciated this about you, but ultimately we weren't. 00:31:39.630 --> 00:31:43.542 Well matched. And what that does is it it gives you back your voice. 00:31:43.625 --> 00:31:48.124 It gives you back your sense of self. You had you had given you had handed him 00:31:48.208 --> 00:31:52.707 your self-esteem and it never should have been gifted to him or lent to him in 00:31:52.790 --> 00:31:57.172 the first place. That's something that you always need to hold for yourself. 00:31:57.255 --> 00:32:00.310 You don't share your self-esteem with somebody else. 00:32:00.630 --> 00:32:04.927 That's yours and yours alone. And yes, there's more to it than, you know, 00:32:05.010 --> 00:32:07.867 in terms of your feelings. There's a lot of pain, 00:32:07.950 --> 00:32:11.947 but I don't know that that's really what you need to share with him. 00:32:12.030 --> 00:32:14.947 You certainly did share it with him in your anger, 00:32:15.030 --> 00:32:19.807 but just by being able to say, I wish you the best. And there's so much power in, 00:32:19.890 --> 00:32:24.487 I wish you the best and not in, you know, your tone is really important there. 00:32:24.570 --> 00:32:27.990 It's, there's no edge to it. And so I hope you're able to 00:32:30.630 --> 00:32:34.756 mismatch and from a from a deep place of adulthood which is where you need to move 00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:38.708 your it's almost like you're wearing clothing that doesn't fit anymore you're 00:32:38.792 --> 00:32:43.071 wearing all that childhood clothing as you go into each of these relationships and so 00:32:43.155 --> 00:32:47.210 if you can wish him from the adult place in yourself and i really wish you well 00:32:47.490 --> 00:32:52.724 And leave it at that and you will move on in a much stronger way than the way things 00:32:52.807 --> 00:32:57.408 have been left already. Yeah, no, that's that's exactly what I want to do. 00:32:57.491 --> 00:33:00.382 And I and I think that you're both right there. 00:33:00.466 --> 00:33:05.256 And I'm glad that it in a way that it did happen this way, because obviously, 00:33:05.340 --> 00:33:10.130 like you said, I've learned more about myself and what I will and won't stand 00:33:10.214 --> 00:33:15.131 for in a relationship. It's it's just obviously always always tough when things 00:33:15.214 --> 00:33:16.290 like this happen. 00:33:17.490 --> 00:33:20.394 like trying to do it in the way that you said, 00:33:20.478 --> 00:33:24.421 hopefully would bring it to a more sort of calm ending. Right. 00:33:24.504 --> 00:33:29.830 And in wishing him well, you give yourself permission to wish yourself well. Okay. 00:33:30.600 --> 00:33:35.699 that it gives you that kind of freedom and that kind of permission that I don't know 00:33:35.783 --> 00:33:40.780 that you let yourself have most of the time. I think you're so concerned about... 00:33:40.980 --> 00:33:44.671 what people are thinking about you and I don't think that you are thinking enough 00:33:44.754 --> 00:33:45.187 about you. 00:33:45.270 --> 00:33:50.084 And then I think, Guy, do you have some other sort of longer term advice? 00:33:50.168 --> 00:33:54.730 I do. Here's what I'd like you to do longer term. I'd like you to... 00:33:54.900 --> 00:33:57.100 Have a pact with yourself. 00:33:57.900 --> 00:33:59.840 And I'd like you to... 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.905 really write out, I want you to think back on the relationships that you've had. 00:34:04.988 --> 00:34:11.910 And I want you to make a list of two kinds of items. Number one, Thank you. 00:34:12.270 --> 00:34:18.070 Limits and things that you really are not okay with in a relationship. 00:34:18.153 --> 00:34:23.413 I want you to enumerate. the ways, you know, the limits that you have, 00:34:23.496 --> 00:34:26.860 what are the things that you will not tolerate, what, 00:34:27.060 --> 00:34:31.767 in a relationship. And I want you to not just go with the big ticket items of, 00:34:31.850 --> 00:34:35.943 you know, cheating or betrayal or, you know, any kind of aggression. 00:34:36.026 --> 00:34:40.303 I want you to think of the small things like somebody putting you down. 00:34:40.387 --> 00:34:44.440 And you'll be surprised that if that is very clear, if it's that a 00:34:44.550 --> 00:34:48.115 a line that you will not have crossed. And the first time you're like, okay, 00:34:48.198 --> 00:34:50.398 let's be very clear that can't happen again. 00:34:50.910 --> 00:34:54.560 They might need one more reminder. But if it's very clear, you know, 00:34:54.643 --> 00:34:57.525 so I want you to make a list of those kinds of things, 00:34:57.608 --> 00:35:00.105 the things you will not tolerate. And with Joe, 00:35:00.188 --> 00:35:04.552 they might have been things like talking on the phone while you're trying to have 00:35:04.635 --> 00:35:08.615 a conversation with him, not being reliable in terms of showing up when he 00:35:08.698 --> 00:35:10.290 when you made plans with him. 00:35:11.160 --> 00:35:16.473 Saying things like, I have no interest in being curious about your interests. 00:35:16.556 --> 00:35:19.640 But the second part of the list is the do's. 00:35:19.890 --> 00:35:23.947 You know, that first part is the don'ts, and then they're the do's. How... 00:35:24.030 --> 00:35:26.819 do you want to feel when you're with someone? 00:35:26.903 --> 00:35:30.714 And I want you to think of what Laurie said about the crumbs, 00:35:30.797 --> 00:35:35.821 the crumbs that are so meaningful. Make a list of those crumbs and ask for them, 00:35:35.904 --> 00:35:38.330 expect them to be much more of a meal. 00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:42.387 In other words, this idea that somebody is thoughtful is, yes, 00:35:42.470 --> 00:35:46.000 it's touching and it's moving. It just shouldn't be that rare. 00:35:46.530 --> 00:35:50.518 Because I'm sure those are the kinds of things that you are able to offer someone, 00:35:50.602 --> 00:35:52.302 it's absolutely fair to want them. 00:35:52.530 --> 00:35:57.306 in some kind of way for yourself. So I want you to make a list of, you know, 00:35:57.390 --> 00:36:00.120 the things you would like in a relationship, 00:36:00.203 --> 00:36:03.765 the ways you would want to feel when you're with someone. 00:36:03.848 --> 00:36:07.537 And then the idea here is that you keep that list with you. 00:36:07.620 --> 00:36:10.370 And the next time you start dating someone, 00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:13.618 I, this is going to sound like a lot, but I truly mean it. 00:36:13.701 --> 00:36:16.240 I want you to read the list before every date. 00:36:17.220 --> 00:36:23.617 Let's say at least for a while, because it will remind you to be truer to yourself. 00:36:23.700 --> 00:36:26.720 And so literally before every date. 00:36:27.150 --> 00:36:31.281 You read that list, you remind yourself, yep, this is what I'm looking for. 00:36:31.364 --> 00:36:34.230 And if it's not there, you can decide much earlier. 00:36:34.740 --> 00:36:38.001 Laurie said you're getting better at leaving sooner. Good. 00:36:38.084 --> 00:36:40.768 Maybe it'll only be one date, two dates a month. 00:36:40.851 --> 00:36:43.708 Maybe you give somebody a chance and they snap too. 00:36:43.792 --> 00:36:48.263 And you will be surprised, Sharina, that when you do express these expectations 00:36:48.346 --> 00:36:52.817 and you do it nicely, you'll be surprised that when you're very clear that this 00:36:52.901 --> 00:36:57.340 is the standard, you'll be surprised how many men will rise to that standard. 00:37:04.740 --> 00:37:09.518 that you think you deserve, where maybe I'm expecting too much, 00:37:09.602 --> 00:37:12.367 and that's where I've kind of now... 00:37:12.450 --> 00:37:16.610 sort of gone the other way and been like, oh, I'm chill about everything. 00:37:16.693 --> 00:37:20.388 So it's good to hear that you have to have expectations, I guess. 00:37:20.471 --> 00:37:24.515 And the people who don't want to do those kinds of things, that's good. 00:37:24.598 --> 00:37:28.874 That's good information to have. So instead of being devastated by the fact 00:37:28.957 --> 00:37:33.175 that they don't want to do that, and then you take it personally and think 00:37:33.259 --> 00:37:37.709 that you're unlovable, that just means that I don't have to be in so much pain 00:37:37.792 --> 00:37:40.020 because I'm, I can eliminate that person. 00:37:41.910 --> 00:37:43.590 Yeah. Lastly, 00:37:44.190 --> 00:37:47.536 Every time you have the thought, either when you're making the list, 00:37:47.619 --> 00:37:49.906 working on the list, or when you're reading it, 00:37:49.989 --> 00:37:53.083 or when you're dating someone, every time you have the thought, 00:37:53.167 --> 00:37:57.118 this might be too much to expect, I want you to ask yourself if those things are 00:37:57.201 --> 00:38:01.051 things you are willing to offer. And if they are, it's not too much to expect, 00:38:01.135 --> 00:38:04.110 and if they're not, they probably shouldn't be on the list. 00:38:04.530 --> 00:38:09.664 Perfect. Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. That would help me a lot, I think, 00:38:09.747 --> 00:38:13.950 because I think that I'm super hard on myself and I let everyone else around me 00:38:14.033 --> 00:38:18.399 in my relationships get away with my gut. So that would help me make it a bit more 00:38:18.482 --> 00:38:22.660 balanced. Definitely. Great. So how do you feel about trying all this advice? 00:38:24.240 --> 00:38:27.206 Good. I feel really good. I'm going to definitely do the list. 00:38:27.290 --> 00:38:31.239 I'm feeling really emotional. So I think that I might have a bit of a cry and it'd 00:38:31.323 --> 00:38:32.723 be a cathartic cry, I think. 00:38:36.600 --> 00:38:40.120 and I'm definitely going to put the advice to good use. 00:38:41.160 --> 00:38:45.831 Yeah. So thank you guys. Honestly, this has been great for me and I can't thank 00:38:45.914 --> 00:38:49.742 you guys enough. I'm really, really, really grateful to you both. 00:38:49.826 --> 00:38:54.256 And we're grateful to you. Thank you. If you can try that this week to have 00:38:54.339 --> 00:38:59.251 that conversation with him, we would love to hear back from you if you can leave us 00:38:59.334 --> 00:39:02.862 a voice memo and let us know how that went. Oof. Yeah. Yeah, 00:39:02.945 --> 00:39:07.014 I will do that and I'll send that over to you. No problem. Wonderful. 00:39:07.097 --> 00:39:08.000 Take care. Bye. 00:39:11.160 --> 00:39:17.707 So, Serena was really lovely, and I'm glad we got to... 00:39:17.790 --> 00:39:21.510 help her see some things that maybe she wasn't able to see before. 00:39:21.593 --> 00:39:25.200 What do you think? is going to happen when she tries our advice. 00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:30.553 I think she really had two people in her corner and I don't think she's used 00:39:30.637 --> 00:39:35.332 to having people in her corner. And I think that she's going to feel empowered 00:39:35.416 --> 00:39:40.440 enough to be able to do it in the right way and really get some closure out of it. 00:39:55.980 --> 00:39:59.927 but I also feel like she's very motivated and I think she's 00:40:00.010 --> 00:40:04.689 hearing that this isn't so much about Jo, but about something larger in her life 00:40:04.772 --> 00:40:08.677 and in her relational patterns. And I am really excited to hear how 00:40:08.761 --> 00:40:10.130 that conversation goes. 00:40:13.230 --> 00:40:16.790 This is Dear Therapist, and we'll be back after a short break. 00:40:17.590 --> 00:40:19.390 *music* 00:40:21.190 --> 00:40:25.913 Support comes from WISE, the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around 00:40:25.997 --> 00:40:29.512 the globe. You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. 00:40:29.596 --> 00:40:33.000 Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. 00:40:33.460 --> 00:40:38.509 Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. 00:40:38.592 --> 00:40:39.800 Choose the WiseCard. 00:40:40.180 --> 00:40:43.733 You can spend in over 40 currencies with the exchange rate you'd usually see 00:40:43.816 --> 00:40:46.266 on Google, so you can stretch your travel budget. 00:40:46.690 --> 00:40:51.330 Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply. 00:41:16.690 --> 00:41:20.172 This is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, 00:41:20.256 --> 00:41:23.619 being the founder of New Shoes, Good Taste is my business. 00:41:23.703 --> 00:41:27.958 And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, 00:41:28.041 --> 00:41:30.751 there would be so much more peace in the world. 00:41:30.834 --> 00:41:34.079 We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, 00:41:34.162 --> 00:41:37.228 getting older and a little wiser. We're best friends, 00:41:37.312 --> 00:41:41.650 but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. 00:41:53.570 --> 00:41:59.215 liar listen on the iheart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts 00:41:59.299 --> 00:42:01.170 i don't really care you 00:42:03.140 --> 00:42:09.638 I'm Guy Winch. And I'm Laurie Gottlieb. And this is Dear Therapists. Well, 00:42:09.721 --> 00:42:16.721 let's listen to the voicemail. Hi, Guy and Laurie. It's Shreena. After we spoke, 00:42:16.835 --> 00:42:22.157 I did feel better. It made me realise that I have a lot of... 00:42:22.240 --> 00:42:29.199 unresolved childhood trauma that I need to work through and to that end I am seeing 00:42:29.282 --> 00:42:33.440 a therapist weekly to kind of really work through 00:42:34.330 --> 00:42:40.084 those sort of feelings that I've had and why I act the way that I do and seem to be 00:42:40.167 --> 00:42:42.390 drawn to emotionally unavailable men. 00:42:43.420 --> 00:42:46.485 So I think that that is definitely a positive, 00:42:46.568 --> 00:42:50.113 something I could definitely take away from our chat. 00:42:50.196 --> 00:42:52.660 I've also realised that sometimes... 00:42:53.080 --> 00:42:55.910 What you... want to do 00:42:57.010 --> 00:43:01.350 isn't healthy for you. So you need to make sure that you follow through with 00:43:01.433 --> 00:43:04.670 the healthy thing to do. So for example, 00:43:04.780 --> 00:43:07.953 I go backwards and forwards about wanting to have done. 00:43:08.036 --> 00:43:10.735 I'm at a place now where actually I don't feel. 00:43:10.818 --> 00:43:15.140 But before I was in a place where I wanted to get back together with Joe. 00:43:16.180 --> 00:43:20.016 But I realised now that my need was to stay mentally healthy, 00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:24.340 to stay emotionally healthy. And in order to do that, I need to... 00:43:24.460 --> 00:43:25.660 distance myself 00:43:25.780 --> 00:43:30.801 from him and realize okay what is the underlying issue here why do I feel 00:43:30.884 --> 00:43:35.625 the need to to put myself in that situation and that is another thing 00:43:35.708 --> 00:43:40.869 that I've learned that I find it really hard to sit with difficult emotions 00:43:40.952 --> 00:43:42.700 and that's something that 00:43:42.910 --> 00:43:49.090 I want to work on. So I'm trying to use this. As a learning tool. So. 00:43:49.180 --> 00:43:54.857 I'm... hopeful for the future and hopefully on the other side I will 00:43:54.940 --> 00:44:01.490 have a relationship that I deserve and that is something that I've... 00:44:01.690 --> 00:44:07.000 always wanted and have yet to receive. So, Yeah, thank you so much. 00:44:07.780 --> 00:44:11.240 I'm totally indebted to you both. 00:44:11.680 --> 00:44:16.500 And I really appreciate everything you did in that time we shared together. 00:44:23.530 --> 00:44:28.367 Quite a few different levels for me. Unexpected and really good. 00:44:28.450 --> 00:44:31.930 Good in some ways. She seemed to have learned... 00:44:32.290 --> 00:44:37.352 so much about the work that she needs to do that she wasn't aware of before 00:44:37.436 --> 00:44:42.647 and really separating out what is historical for her. What is something that 00:44:42.730 --> 00:44:48.924 went on in the past that is driving her behavior now and how much is really about 00:44:49.008 --> 00:44:52.007 joe who clearly was not compatible with 00:44:52.090 --> 00:44:55.830 with her. And, you know, I found it interesting that, you know, 00:44:56.170 --> 00:45:00.580 She didn't actually... Follow the suggestion that we asked her to do, 00:45:00.663 --> 00:45:03.996 which was that conversation with Joe about their, you know, 00:45:04.080 --> 00:45:07.876 really owning the fact that she sees that they were not compatible. 00:45:07.959 --> 00:45:12.218 So she doesn't feel like the victim, because I think she came to realize in 00:45:12.302 --> 00:45:16.561 our conversation that really this was not the right person for her as well. 00:45:16.644 --> 00:45:17.860 And to wish him well. 00:45:17.950 --> 00:45:21.795 Right. That was part of the advice. But what was interesting was, I think, 00:45:21.878 --> 00:45:26.147 as therapists, we see that sometimes we will suggest something to someone and they 00:45:26.231 --> 00:45:29.150 do something different that is equally useful for them. 00:45:47.950 --> 00:45:50.782 to hear. Yeah, I love the way she put it where she said, 00:45:50.865 --> 00:45:55.050 there's a difference between what I want in the moment and what I need for myself. 00:45:55.133 --> 00:45:58.902 And even this small little tidbit she threw in there, which I think is so, 00:45:58.985 --> 00:46:02.858 so valuable of like, yes, and I know I need to be able to sit with difficult 00:46:02.941 --> 00:46:06.033 emotions. Yes, you do. And good for you for remembering that. 00:46:06.116 --> 00:46:10.093 So I'm really hopeful that she's going to be able to go forward in a much more 00:46:10.176 --> 00:46:12.050 positive way and make these changes. 00:46:17.950 --> 00:46:21.661 universal. And what we talked to her about applies to so many people. 00:46:21.744 --> 00:46:25.840 And what I loved about Shreena was that she immediately said, you know what, 00:46:25.923 --> 00:46:30.349 this is really hard. My instinct and what would feel better in the moment is to do 00:46:30.432 --> 00:46:34.418 this thing that's not healthy for me and to just continue my old patterns. 00:46:34.502 --> 00:46:38.377 But I know I need to do something different in order to have a different 00:46:38.461 --> 00:46:42.090 outcome. And I think we can all learn something from that example. 00:46:48.390 --> 00:46:51.658 That brings us to the end of our show for this week. 00:46:51.742 --> 00:46:55.719 Thank you so much for listening. You can follow us both online. 00:46:55.802 --> 00:47:00.553 I'm at laurigotlieb.com, and you can follow me on Twitter at laurigotlieb1, 00:47:00.636 --> 00:47:05.470 or on Instagram at laurigotlieb underscore author. And I'm at guywinch.com. 00:47:05.560 --> 00:47:07.720 And on Instagram, at Guy Winch. 00:47:08.080 --> 00:47:12.539 If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, big or small, 00:47:12.622 --> 00:47:15.429 email us at lauriemguy at iheartmedia.com. 00:47:15.512 --> 00:47:18.663 Our executive producer is Christopher Haciotis. 00:47:18.747 --> 00:47:24.100 We're produced and edited by Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and 00:47:24.183 --> 00:47:27.280 to our podcast fairy godmother, Katie Couric. 00:47:27.820 --> 00:47:31.879 Next week, we'll talk about the challenges of blending families together when young 00:47:31.962 --> 00:47:33.062 children are involved. 00:47:33.310 --> 00:47:37.361 and say, oh, everything is going fine. Maybe today's going to be a good day. 00:47:37.444 --> 00:47:41.005 And I certainly don't know what to say when she's like, I hate you. 00:47:41.089 --> 00:47:44.570 Get away from me. Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio. 00:47:49.330 --> 00:47:50.163 you 00:47:51.850 --> 00:47:56.719 Support comes from WISE, the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around 00:47:56.802 --> 00:48:00.143 the globe. You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. 00:48:00.226 --> 00:48:03.650 Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. 00:48:04.090 --> 00:48:09.155 Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. 00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:10.450 Choose the WiseCard. 00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:14.380 You can spend in over 40 currencies with the exchange rate you'd usually see 00:48:14.464 --> 00:48:16.914 on Google, so you can stretch your travel budget. 00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:21.980 Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply. 00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:51.100 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 00:48:53.590 --> 00:48:57.030 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.