1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,400 This is an iHeart Podcast. 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:03,400 Guaranteed human. 3 00:00:04,260 --> 00:00:06,020 Support comes from Wise, 4 00:00:06,140 --> 00:00:09,700 the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around the globe. 5 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:12,560 You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. 6 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,180 Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. 7 00:00:16,740 --> 00:00:21,220 Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. 8 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,957 Choose the Wise card. You can spend in over 40 currencies 9 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,577 with the exchange rate you'd usually see on Google, 10 00:00:27,660 --> 00:00:29,560 so you can stretch your travel budget. 11 00:00:29,900 --> 00:00:33,320 Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. 12 00:00:33,660 --> 00:00:37,160 T's and C's apply. Lisa, tell them about our new show. 13 00:00:37,500 --> 00:00:40,050 We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. 14 00:00:40,260 --> 00:00:45,137 I'm Lexi Iwanu. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. 15 00:00:45,220 --> 00:00:49,660 And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, 16 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:51,297 occasionally different opinions. 17 00:00:51,380 --> 00:00:53,860 And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. 18 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,960 Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, Good Taste is my business. 19 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,675 Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 20 00:01:01,758 --> 00:01:03,560 or wherever you get your podcasts. 21 00:01:05,820 --> 00:01:10,237 Hey, dear therapist listeners, it's Lori and Guy, and we have a quick update. 22 00:01:10,320 --> 00:01:14,598 Many of you have told us that you get something new out of each episode when you 23 00:01:14,681 --> 00:01:17,080 listen to it again the second or third time. 24 00:01:17,780 --> 00:01:19,969 In fact, when we listen to the episodes again, 25 00:01:20,052 --> 00:01:22,652 we also get takeaways we didn't remember were there. 26 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:26,635 Therapy is like that, too. There are so many learning moments in a session, 27 00:01:26,718 --> 00:01:28,857 and it's difficult to absorb them all at once. 28 00:01:28,940 --> 00:01:31,835 So while we're not taping new episodes right now, 29 00:01:31,918 --> 00:01:36,211 we are offering you our most popular sessions as encores so that you can 30 00:01:36,294 --> 00:01:38,300 continue to gain value from them. 31 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,145 We love doing Dear Therapists episodes, but we're each busy with new and exciting 32 00:01:43,228 --> 00:01:45,980 projects that we hope you will love just as much. 33 00:01:46,220 --> 00:01:48,954 I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, 34 00:01:49,038 --> 00:01:51,717 which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts. 35 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,133 And I have a new book coming out. It's called Mind Over Grind, 36 00:01:56,216 --> 00:01:59,409 How to Break Free When Work Hijacks Your Life. 37 00:01:59,492 --> 00:02:02,614 And it will be published by Simon & Schuster. 38 00:02:02,698 --> 00:02:06,817 You can find out more about it on my website, guywinch.com. 39 00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:10,170 You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile, 40 00:02:10,253 --> 00:02:14,017 we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable as we have, 41 00:02:14,101 --> 00:02:15,117 making them for you. 42 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:22,200 hey fellow travelers i'm laurie gottlieb i'm the author of maybe you should talk 43 00:02:22,756 --> 00:02:23,617 to someone 44 00:02:23,700 --> 00:02:28,649 and i write the dear therapist advice column for the atlantic and i guy winch i 45 00:02:28,732 --> 00:02:33,873 wrote emotional first aid and I write the Dear Guy column for TED And this is Dear 46 00:02:33,956 --> 00:02:38,164 Therapists This week we'll talk through a problem familiar to a lot of people, 47 00:02:38,247 --> 00:02:42,588 a breakup and a broken heart. It makes me sad because I kind of keep thinking like, 48 00:02:42,672 --> 00:02:44,787 is there something that I could have done 49 00:02:44,870 --> 00:02:48,787 differently or better? And they don't have the answer to the question. It's just, 50 00:02:48,870 --> 00:02:50,287 oh, I just don't love you. And that's what hurts. 51 00:02:50,370 --> 00:02:53,810 Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself in the process. 52 00:02:54,990 --> 00:03:01,930 Before we begin, just a note about today's episode. 53 00:03:02,250 --> 00:03:05,050 As of this taping, we're still in the midst of COVID-19, 54 00:03:05,450 --> 00:03:08,230 and as a result, we are all taping from home. 55 00:03:08,590 --> 00:03:11,067 And because homes can be full of background noises 56 00:03:11,150 --> 00:03:14,250 and signs of life that you wouldn't get in a recording studio, 57 00:03:14,630 --> 00:03:16,907 you may notice some of that in this episode 58 00:03:16,990 --> 00:03:18,740 before we worked all the kinks out. 59 00:03:19,250 --> 00:03:25,390 Thanks for your understanding, and here we go with episode one of Dear Therapists. 60 00:03:25,750 --> 00:03:26,890 We hope you enjoy it. 61 00:03:29,430 --> 00:03:32,947 So Guy, I saw this letter in our box this week 62 00:03:33,030 --> 00:03:35,747 and I wanted to bring it to you specifically 63 00:03:35,830 --> 00:03:40,890 because of the TED Talk that you did on how to fix a broken heart. 64 00:03:41,210 --> 00:03:44,570 And this is a letter about heartbreak and here's how it goes. 65 00:03:45,250 --> 00:03:49,710 Dear Therapists, I'm going through a breakup and having a hard time. 66 00:03:50,270 --> 00:03:53,875 My boyfriend and I had been dating for nine months when I made the decision 67 00:03:53,959 --> 00:03:57,072 to break up with him after a month of him telling me he loved me, 68 00:03:57,155 --> 00:03:59,305 but wasn't sure if it was in the right way. 69 00:03:59,690 --> 00:04:04,370 It was so hurtful. He couldn't explain why his feelings had changed or when. 70 00:04:04,710 --> 00:04:07,930 He also didn't want to work on it, but he wanted to be friends. 71 00:04:08,530 --> 00:04:10,107 The relationship wasn't perfect. 72 00:04:10,190 --> 00:04:13,000 While we were dating, he started using drugs recreationally, 73 00:04:13,083 --> 00:04:15,433 and his drinking was becoming a problem for me. 74 00:04:15,870 --> 00:04:19,319 I knew I had to end it after trying my best to talk about how I was feeling 75 00:04:19,403 --> 00:04:21,003 and having it fall on deaf ears. 76 00:04:21,210 --> 00:04:25,550 I was confused because he said that I was perfect, yet he wasn't feeling it, 77 00:04:25,770 --> 00:04:29,470 but didn't have the courage to break up with me until I ended it with him. 78 00:04:29,910 --> 00:04:32,667 We tried to keep in touch for a week or two after splitting up, 79 00:04:32,750 --> 00:04:36,648 but I couldn't maintain the facade, and it was giving me false hope that he'd realize 80 00:04:36,731 --> 00:04:38,481 what he'd lost and come back to me. 81 00:04:38,870 --> 00:04:40,330 He didn't and hasn't. 82 00:04:40,970 --> 00:04:44,647 Now I'm haunted by questions like, why wasn't I enough for him? 83 00:04:44,730 --> 00:04:48,180 What happened to make him love me differently or cause him to change? 84 00:04:48,590 --> 00:04:52,027 I worry that he'll find someone else and treat her better and love her. 85 00:04:52,110 --> 00:04:53,830 I'm worried I was the problem. 86 00:04:54,390 --> 00:04:59,380 We need to arrange swapping our stuff once the lockdown has lifted which is making me 87 00:04:59,464 --> 00:05:04,394 anxious I angry and sad and keep bursting into tears sporadically I just exhausted I 88 00:05:04,477 --> 00:05:05,910 haven been able to sleep 89 00:05:06,510 --> 00:05:11,369 Do you have any advice for me? Many thanks. Shrina. Okay, good. 90 00:05:11,452 --> 00:05:13,570 First of all, good for her, 91 00:05:14,210 --> 00:05:16,567 really good for her for doing the breaking up. 92 00:05:16,650 --> 00:05:19,167 There are many people in that situation that just 93 00:05:19,250 --> 00:05:23,801 stay in this very painful position of being with someone who they can tell 94 00:05:23,884 --> 00:05:25,450 doesn't love them enough. 95 00:05:26,090 --> 00:05:29,349 But they stay hoping something will change, which it often doesn't, 96 00:05:29,432 --> 00:05:30,147 usually doesn't. 97 00:05:30,230 --> 00:05:36,410 So her healthy response of saying, look, if you're not feeling it, then let's not, 98 00:05:36,650 --> 00:05:40,630 I think is a really healthy response and good for her for pulling the plug. 99 00:05:41,410 --> 00:05:42,690 Certainly she needed to. 100 00:05:43,330 --> 00:05:48,919 Yeah. I mean, you know, it's one of those things where she thinks that something 101 00:05:49,003 --> 00:05:53,477 changed. She says he couldn't explain why what he's feeling changed or when, 102 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,627 but he also didn't want to work on it. 103 00:05:55,710 --> 00:06:00,131 And he wanted to be friends. And I think that that's what's so confusing for people 104 00:06:00,214 --> 00:06:04,610 is when you want when the person likes you enough to want to be friends with you, 105 00:06:04,990 --> 00:06:09,123 but they didn't want to be with you in the way they didn't feel, you know, 106 00:06:09,207 --> 00:06:11,030 that they were in love with you. 107 00:06:11,470 --> 00:06:12,807 People feel like, well, why? 108 00:06:12,890 --> 00:06:17,569 I did something to make this happen, as opposed to maybe it's just not the right 109 00:06:17,653 --> 00:06:22,174 match. Well, what happens is that at first there's this level of infatuation 110 00:06:22,257 --> 00:06:24,630 typically that happens, which is temporary. 111 00:06:24,890 --> 00:06:29,047 That's infatuation is the heady stuff that people get excited about at the beginning. 112 00:06:29,130 --> 00:06:32,907 It can last, you know, a date and it can last for a while. 113 00:06:32,990 --> 00:06:37,287 But once the infatuation starts to fade and then there's a more realistic 114 00:06:37,370 --> 00:06:42,087 assessment of the relationship, then it either transitions into something that's 115 00:06:42,170 --> 00:06:46,467 deeper, you know, in terms of love and a deeper kind of romantic love and 116 00:06:46,550 --> 00:06:50,210 the passion is still there or it just doesn't make that leap. 117 00:06:50,550 --> 00:06:55,130 But this is not about her doing something that changed his feelings. 118 00:06:55,370 --> 00:07:00,262 It's about something between the chemistry of those two didn't allow his feelings 119 00:07:00,346 --> 00:07:05,537 to make the leap. But I think that it's important to not blame oneself, 120 00:07:05,620 --> 00:07:09,847 but to explore and be curious about what didn't work. 121 00:07:09,930 --> 00:07:11,530 Has this happened to her before? 122 00:07:11,710 --> 00:07:13,890 What might have been happening here? 123 00:07:14,190 --> 00:07:16,924 Not not because there's something wrong with her at all, 124 00:07:17,008 --> 00:07:18,970 just because maybe there was something. 125 00:07:19,130 --> 00:07:21,147 I think there are two people, you know, in a relationship. 126 00:07:21,230 --> 00:07:23,867 And so he had his role in it and she had her role in it. 127 00:07:23,950 --> 00:07:28,763 And just to be aware of her own role in whatever might have happened And I think 128 00:07:28,846 --> 00:07:33,169 there this other part of it that has nothing to do with him that helpful 129 00:07:33,253 --> 00:07:36,597 for her to consider too which is when you get into a new 130 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,811 relationship, there's always so much hope that this is going to be it. 131 00:07:40,894 --> 00:07:46,379 This is going to be the one. I will not be dating anymore. This is my person. 132 00:07:46,463 --> 00:07:49,777 And I think that when it doesn't work out, 133 00:07:49,860 --> 00:07:56,860 there's the loss of the actual person, but there's also the loss of the idea that you 134 00:07:57,365 --> 00:07:58,077 were done 135 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:03,081 dating. And that is its own loss that is unrelated to the person that is no longer 136 00:08:03,165 --> 00:08:03,997 there. And then 137 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:09,348 there's a third loss, which is just the loss of what it's like to be in 138 00:08:09,431 --> 00:08:11,157 a relationship, which is 139 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,509 the dailiness of it, the person that you tell what happened today, 140 00:08:14,593 --> 00:08:16,237 the person you check in with every 141 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,929 day, the person you're cooking dinner with. So all of that, 142 00:08:20,012 --> 00:08:22,057 then you have to go back to square 143 00:08:22,140 --> 00:08:26,049 one again. The more number of times that you do this, 144 00:08:26,132 --> 00:08:29,137 the harder it is every time when you have 145 00:08:29,220 --> 00:08:31,176 to start over at square one. I agree. I think, 146 00:08:31,259 --> 00:08:33,437 I so agree with what you said, because I think that 147 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:39,167 that loss of the dream is often bigger than the loss of the person. Yes. 148 00:08:39,250 --> 00:08:41,077 You're listening to Dear 149 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,360 Therapist from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break. 150 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:51,097 Support comes from Wise, the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around 151 00:08:51,180 --> 00:08:54,640 the globe. You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. 152 00:08:55,060 --> 00:08:58,260 Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. 153 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,300 Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. 154 00:09:03,740 --> 00:09:04,980 Choose the Wise card. 155 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:08,899 You can spend in over 40 currencies with the exchange rate you'd usually see 156 00:09:08,982 --> 00:09:11,432 on Google, so you can stretch your travel budget. 157 00:09:11,980 --> 00:09:15,317 Be smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today. 158 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,800 T's and C's apply. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. 159 00:09:20,260 --> 00:09:22,660 Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. 160 00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:25,280 It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwano. 161 00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:29,600 We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. 162 00:09:29,860 --> 00:09:34,240 And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, 163 00:09:34,660 --> 00:09:35,817 occasionally different opinions. 164 00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:38,360 And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. 165 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,500 I'm not going to get anywhere. 166 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,700 You're fighting. That is wild. 167 00:09:42,980 --> 00:09:44,530 I learned that about you today. 168 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,717 Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, 169 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,717 Good Taste is my business, and I've always got something to say. 170 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,957 If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. 171 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,927 We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, 172 00:10:00,010 --> 00:10:02,986 Getting older and a little wiser. We're best friends, 173 00:10:03,070 --> 00:10:07,778 but we don't always agree because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, 174 00:10:07,861 --> 00:10:10,895 I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, 175 00:10:10,978 --> 00:10:14,358 but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. 176 00:10:14,442 --> 00:10:18,226 Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. 177 00:10:18,310 --> 00:10:21,286 Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, 178 00:10:21,369 --> 00:10:25,410 Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. 179 00:10:28,350 --> 00:10:30,733 This is Dear Therapists. Thanks for listening. Well, 180 00:10:30,816 --> 00:10:34,053 let's talk to her and get some more information and then give her some 181 00:10:34,136 --> 00:10:36,786 suggestions. Yeah, I'm excited to find out some more. 182 00:10:39,030 --> 00:10:43,325 Well, Shreena, welcome and thank you so much for sending us your letter. 183 00:10:43,408 --> 00:10:48,311 I think it's something that so many people are dealing with right now and we would 184 00:10:48,394 --> 00:10:53,358 love to give you some guidance on this and also hear a little bit more about what's 185 00:10:53,441 --> 00:10:57,150 going on. That would be wonderful. Thank you for inviting me. 186 00:10:57,730 --> 00:11:00,199 are very, very welcome. And let me just say, 187 00:11:00,283 --> 00:11:04,724 heartbreak is rough to begin with. It's really rough during a shutdown because 188 00:11:04,808 --> 00:11:07,625 that makes everything a little bit more difficult. 189 00:11:07,708 --> 00:11:10,526 I think you said it was a nine-month relationship. 190 00:11:10,609 --> 00:11:14,670 I'm just curious about what you might have noticed or what things that 191 00:11:14,770 --> 00:11:21,770 registered as maybe problematic? Well, we met at a party and he was... 192 00:11:22,990 --> 00:11:27,670 sort of, not sort of a neutral friend of ours, but she was 193 00:11:27,790 --> 00:11:31,927 quite into him and he didn't really feel the same way and he did kind of lead her 194 00:11:32,011 --> 00:11:36,252 on and she was an old friend of mine that was my first sort of thing of like well I 195 00:11:36,335 --> 00:11:40,212 don't know if I want to get involved in this so I actually said in the first 196 00:11:40,296 --> 00:11:44,120 instance like no I'm not interested we left it for two weeks and then we he 197 00:11:44,204 --> 00:11:48,185 called me just to say look I just wanted to make sure that you're okay because 198 00:11:48,268 --> 00:11:49,310 that said friend had 199 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,761 started sending me really horrible messages and to him as well. 200 00:11:52,844 --> 00:11:57,086 And he sort of apologized on her behalf and said to me that what he did was wrong 201 00:11:57,169 --> 00:12:01,091 and he shouldn't have done it, but he really wants to take me out on a date 202 00:12:01,174 --> 00:12:05,309 and blah, blah. So then we ended up going on a date and it kind of ignited very 203 00:12:05,393 --> 00:12:06,077 quickly and 204 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,853 I was a bit anxious about that, but it was also nice because I was engaged back 205 00:12:10,936 --> 00:12:15,025 in 2016, but that didn't work out. The first red flag, I have to say, 206 00:12:15,108 --> 00:12:19,340 I don't know if that would count as one, but the first one was when... 207 00:12:19,660 --> 00:12:22,065 He lives in London. I live in outside of London. 208 00:12:22,149 --> 00:12:26,265 So the culture in London is a lot like I'm guessing New York City where it's like 209 00:12:26,348 --> 00:12:28,494 going out and then drinking and having fun. 210 00:12:28,578 --> 00:12:32,694 And I noticed that he was drinking a lot. He was meant to come and meet me and he 211 00:12:32,777 --> 00:12:34,540 didn't. And I just said, I'm done. 212 00:12:34,750 --> 00:12:38,421 I'm not hanging around waiting for you. I don't want to do this anymore because 213 00:12:38,504 --> 00:12:40,404 obviously you're choosing to going out 214 00:12:40,690 --> 00:12:44,416 as opposed to hanging out with me, which is what we planned to do. 215 00:12:44,499 --> 00:12:47,820 But he was crying and hysterical. And he was just like, oh, 216 00:12:47,904 --> 00:12:51,802 I've made a mistake. This is a wake up call. You mean too much to me. 217 00:12:51,886 --> 00:12:54,342 I don't want to lose you. So we tried again. 218 00:12:54,425 --> 00:12:58,670 And that's why I feel like I'm so angry, because if I just stuck to my guns 219 00:12:58,753 --> 00:13:01,555 the first time, then I wouldn't be where I am now. 220 00:13:01,639 --> 00:13:06,230 So that that happened pretty early on when you knew that there was something else 221 00:13:06,313 --> 00:13:08,910 that you weren't OK with. Yeah. Tell me what. 222 00:13:09,010 --> 00:13:10,367 made you 223 00:13:10,450 --> 00:13:14,599 overlook that? What were the positive things about the relationship that made 224 00:13:14,682 --> 00:13:18,090 you think, oh, but it's okay. I want to see what happens here. 225 00:13:18,610 --> 00:13:23,550 I think it was because I've never had a guy – 226 00:13:23,650 --> 00:13:28,665 like cry about how sorry they were. I've never had a guy actually express that sort 227 00:13:28,749 --> 00:13:33,110 of emotion. I noticed that my past relationships, the guys that I were, 228 00:13:33,250 --> 00:13:36,602 was seeing or was dating were quite emotionally unavailable. 229 00:13:36,685 --> 00:13:39,437 So they weren't ever very emotionally expressive. 230 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,280 So this guy was like, 231 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:45,803 really upset and I was just thinking, wow, so maybe he must be really sorry. 232 00:13:45,887 --> 00:13:48,821 And I kind of felt, and this is going to sound awful, 233 00:13:48,904 --> 00:13:53,432 but I felt guilty because I felt like I knew better and I felt like perhaps maybe 234 00:13:53,515 --> 00:13:53,807 he... 235 00:13:53,890 --> 00:13:58,033 this was his first major relationship. The last relationship he was in, 236 00:13:58,117 --> 00:14:01,189 he was 16. They finished when he was 21. He's now 27. 237 00:14:01,272 --> 00:14:05,892 So this was his first adult, I would say, relationship. So I thought, you know, 238 00:14:05,975 --> 00:14:08,868 I know better. He didn't mean it. He wants to try. 239 00:14:08,952 --> 00:14:11,690 He's made that sort of apology. Then surely... 240 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:12,887 I should... 241 00:14:12,970 --> 00:14:17,070 try to and not just give up at the first hurdle so I think it was just sort of 242 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:22,659 Yeah. I don't know if that was it. Well, clearly wasn't the right thing to do. 243 00:14:22,742 --> 00:14:27,774 Well, you know, you said this was he's 27 and this was the first relationship 244 00:14:27,858 --> 00:14:33,089 for him since a long time. How old are you and what were your relationships like 245 00:14:33,173 --> 00:14:36,610 before this? So I'm 29. I'm going to be 30 on Sunday. 246 00:14:36,694 --> 00:14:40,663 My first relationship was, well, my engagement ended in 2016. 247 00:14:40,746 --> 00:14:45,845 But I was with that guy for like five years and he said that he didn't love me 248 00:14:45,929 --> 00:14:46,762 anymore. 249 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,027 around looked at me in the house that we were living in and just said oh I don't 250 00:14:50,110 --> 00:14:53,719 love you anymore And I had to leave. So I was like, oh, OK. 251 00:14:53,802 --> 00:14:57,410 How did you grieve the loss of that relationship? 252 00:14:57,850 --> 00:15:02,942 I didn't actually. I actually got straight into like a rebound relationship 253 00:15:03,026 --> 00:15:07,623 with someone who was just as probably in as much of a mess as I was. 254 00:15:07,706 --> 00:15:12,806 And that went on for like a year. And I think I just jumped into something else 255 00:15:12,890 --> 00:15:17,177 and I didn't have a very good family life. And I was just kind of, 256 00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:21,375 didn't want to really deal with the fact that I had lost someone that was so 257 00:15:21,458 --> 00:15:25,131 important to me. So I didn't really grieve that relationship at all. 258 00:15:25,214 --> 00:15:28,335 I think that when I managed to finally escape the rebound, 259 00:15:28,418 --> 00:15:32,588 I think a lot of that was grieving was done in between those sorts of things. 260 00:15:32,671 --> 00:15:37,007 You know, Guy, I want to say, I want to say this sort of to Guy and also to you, 261 00:15:37,090 --> 00:15:41,620 Shreena, that what I'm noticing, and I'll bet that Guy is thinking the same thing, 262 00:15:47,260 --> 00:15:51,798 to realize that a relationship is not actually working for you and the time 263 00:15:51,881 --> 00:15:54,693 that it ends, even if you didn't end it, right? 264 00:15:54,777 --> 00:15:59,376 You're not spending as much time with someone who isn't right for you or who 265 00:15:59,459 --> 00:16:04,243 isn't meeting your needs or who isn't really appropriate in terms of where they 266 00:16:04,326 --> 00:16:09,440 are in their life or what their readiness is for the kind of relationship you want. 267 00:16:10,150 --> 00:16:15,557 Well, I mean, I hope so. I think the thing is, is that I guess... 268 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,583 It makes me sad because I kind of keep thinking, like, 269 00:16:18,666 --> 00:16:21,017 is there something that I could have done? 270 00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:26,273 differently or better because it kind of just feels like the go-to sentence 271 00:16:26,357 --> 00:16:31,110 for both Joe, who is my recent ex, and Matt, who's my ex-fiance, was, 272 00:16:31,193 --> 00:16:36,660 I just don't love you anymore. And I just, that's what makes me think, well... 273 00:16:36,940 --> 00:16:41,066 how, why, when, and they don't have the answer to the question. It's just, oh, 274 00:16:41,149 --> 00:16:44,980 I just don't love you. And that's what hurts because it's kind of like, 275 00:16:45,430 --> 00:16:49,035 well, then what did I do? And then, and then it's just, it's just, 276 00:16:49,118 --> 00:16:50,807 you can't answer that question. 277 00:16:50,890 --> 00:16:53,461 Yeah. You know, I have a little bit of suspicion. 278 00:16:53,544 --> 00:16:57,848 I'm not sure about this at all, mind you, but I have a little suspicion that it's 279 00:16:57,931 --> 00:17:00,340 more about what you don't do than what you do. 280 00:17:00,423 --> 00:17:03,589 And why I say it might be related more to what you don't do, 281 00:17:03,673 --> 00:17:07,543 it's possible that when you have a background that's a little tumultuous, 282 00:17:07,627 --> 00:17:11,310 it makes your tolerance for certain things higher than it should be. 283 00:17:20,890 --> 00:17:23,873 You just learn to tolerate that. It doesn't, you know, 284 00:17:23,956 --> 00:17:27,790 disturb you as much as it might disturb someone else who doesn't have 285 00:17:27,874 --> 00:17:31,935 that tolerance. And so it's possible with some of these guys that you are 286 00:17:32,018 --> 00:17:35,171 overlooking things because, yes, it's slightly a problem, 287 00:17:35,255 --> 00:17:39,600 but I can manage it. When the problem with managing it is that it communicates 288 00:17:39,683 --> 00:17:43,090 to them that you're OK with it when, in essence, you're not. 289 00:17:43,870 --> 00:17:46,742 Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, that is right. 290 00:17:46,826 --> 00:17:51,734 I even said that if I take you back, then I'm sort of enabling this behavior 291 00:17:51,817 --> 00:17:54,510 and saying that it's OK, I can't do that. 292 00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:58,236 But I guess I'm just a bit of a sucker because he was like, oh, no, no, 293 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,162 I won't. Like, you know, this is my wake up call. I've changed. I've changed. 294 00:18:02,245 --> 00:18:04,456 It was just kind of like downhill from there. 295 00:18:04,540 --> 00:18:07,209 Here's something I want you to remember for next time. 296 00:18:07,293 --> 00:18:11,135 And that is that when he has this moment where he's crying and he's promising 297 00:18:11,218 --> 00:18:14,940 and it's all going to be great. It's OK to give the person a chance. But. 298 00:18:15,130 --> 00:18:19,399 in this condition. You give them a chance and then you have your eyes 299 00:18:19,483 --> 00:18:24,383 extraordinarily wide open for the first violation of whatever that promise was. 300 00:18:24,466 --> 00:18:28,105 And then you have to really call them on it and say, uh-uh, 301 00:18:28,188 --> 00:18:31,907 it might be half an hour later, a day, a week, a month. But 302 00:18:31,990 --> 00:18:36,113 It's that first time where they're violating whatever the promise is that you 303 00:18:36,196 --> 00:18:40,429 can't overlook it, because if you do, then they just fall into the old behavior 304 00:18:40,512 --> 00:18:43,925 immediately. And there goes the promise. If you call them on it, 305 00:18:44,008 --> 00:18:46,601 they have a decision point to make of either. OK, 306 00:18:46,685 --> 00:18:50,753 either they're back in or they're not. But at least in that point, you know, 307 00:18:50,837 --> 00:18:53,266 you know, you had been asking about, you know, 308 00:18:53,349 --> 00:18:56,190 what did I do to make them fall out of love with me? 309 00:19:01,990 --> 00:19:07,378 as opposed to wondering how can I be a chameleon and be the kind of person 310 00:19:07,461 --> 00:19:11,010 that they want me to be so that they'll love me. 311 00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:15,631 Yeah, I think that's my main problem because I find myself trying to mould 312 00:19:15,714 --> 00:19:19,877 myself into shapes for my partner the way that they want me to be. Like, 313 00:19:19,961 --> 00:19:24,183 for example, with Joe, he wasn't happy with my life choices. He was like, 314 00:19:24,266 --> 00:19:27,544 you shouldn't be doing this, you shouldn't be doing that. 315 00:19:27,628 --> 00:19:32,110 And it kind of just made me feel like, why can't you just accept me as I am? 316 00:19:32,350 --> 00:19:36,570 And he just said, oh, because I'm trying to push you to be better because you're so 317 00:19:36,654 --> 00:19:40,200 bright and you're so intelligent and you can do this, you can do that, 318 00:19:40,283 --> 00:19:44,193 but you've got comfortable. And it just made me feel really bad about myself. 319 00:19:44,276 --> 00:19:47,750 And I think that's really a good point that I have tried to like... 320 00:19:47,980 --> 00:19:52,840 change who I am to try and make my partner's I guess, like me more. 321 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,972 Well, I think in this last relationship, it sounds like you were trying to be 322 00:19:57,055 --> 00:19:59,937 the cool girl, the laid back girl, the girl who's like, 323 00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:04,734 Yeah, I'm cool with that. It's OK. And the more that people try to say, 324 00:20:04,817 --> 00:20:10,072 I'm going to be someone who I'm not to become the person that this other person 325 00:20:10,156 --> 00:20:14,480 wants, the less chance that relationship is going to work. Yeah. 326 00:20:15,620 --> 00:20:19,580 Yeah. I don't know. I just, I feel like, I don't know what 327 00:20:20,090 --> 00:20:23,133 I don't know. I don't know. I kept saying this to him. I was like, what did I do? 328 00:20:23,217 --> 00:20:23,967 I don't understand. 329 00:20:24,050 --> 00:20:26,863 And he was like, I don't understand either. He's like, I do love you, 330 00:20:26,946 --> 00:20:28,625 but I don't know if it's in the right way. 331 00:20:28,709 --> 00:20:31,060 And I just felt like I was banging my head against a wall. 332 00:20:31,143 --> 00:20:34,100 And it's so hard to not feel like, you're the one 333 00:20:34,190 --> 00:20:39,294 You lose all your self-esteem. So you handed your self-esteem to him to be 334 00:20:39,377 --> 00:20:41,550 the holder of your self-esteem. 335 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:42,793 Yeah. 336 00:20:43,190 --> 00:20:46,770 That's a very dangerous way to go about 337 00:20:47,060 --> 00:20:51,657 being in relationship with somebody. Yeah. You talk a lot about 338 00:20:51,740 --> 00:20:55,992 what you thought he liked about you and then suddenly he wasn't as invested. 339 00:20:56,075 --> 00:21:00,384 What did you like about him? I'm not hearing anything positive about him yet. 340 00:21:00,468 --> 00:21:03,351 Yeah, I mean, he made me laugh. He was really funny. 341 00:21:03,434 --> 00:21:06,602 And we went out and experienced a lot of things together. 342 00:21:06,686 --> 00:21:11,052 We always were doing things. It's a complete polar opposite of my relationship 343 00:21:11,135 --> 00:21:14,417 with my ex, where we just sat and did nothing in the house. 344 00:21:14,501 --> 00:21:17,726 So we were like always doing something. It was always fun. 345 00:21:17,809 --> 00:21:19,920 There was always something happening. 346 00:21:21,740 --> 00:21:23,100 go, go, go. And 347 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:28,375 I, you know, I liked that. And I mean, I hate to sound really superficial, 348 00:21:28,459 --> 00:21:31,791 but he was really good looking as well. So, yeah, 349 00:21:31,875 --> 00:21:36,671 I think those are like the three things that I really liked about him. 350 00:21:36,754 --> 00:21:40,240 You know, what's interesting is that I think that. 351 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,000 Sometimes you... 352 00:21:42,170 --> 00:21:48,290 and by you I mean most people, try and make a relationship work in the moment. 353 00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:53,050 without thinking enough about whether it's sustainable, long term. 354 00:21:53,450 --> 00:21:57,807 And when you start thinking long term, you have to ask yourself whether you want 355 00:21:57,891 --> 00:22:02,082 to sign on for that forever with that person who will always know better than 356 00:22:02,165 --> 00:22:06,800 you what's best for you and always have an opinion about what you shouldn't shouldn't 357 00:22:06,883 --> 00:22:09,631 do. I mean, and this is what I said to him. I said, 358 00:22:09,714 --> 00:22:13,295 I've always supported you, yet you can't do the same thing for me. 359 00:22:13,378 --> 00:22:17,877 I don't understand why that's the case. So you said you're about to turn 30. Yeah. 360 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:22,150 You've gone through, you had a long engagement that didn't work out. 361 00:22:22,234 --> 00:22:26,675 And now here you are. And it sounds like you're worried about, you know, 362 00:22:26,758 --> 00:22:30,697 meeting somebody. And then you had this idea of, oh, here it is. 363 00:22:30,781 --> 00:22:34,300 Here's my answer. Here's my solution in the form of Joe. 364 00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:39,465 And there he was. And he materialized. And it all sounded so exciting. 365 00:22:39,548 --> 00:22:42,574 And we're going to get married. And we're so, this is so fun. 366 00:22:42,657 --> 00:22:46,480 And he's so different from my former fiance. And this is going to be great. 367 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,160 that trouble being loved and learning to love, 368 00:22:50,244 --> 00:22:54,182 that's all going to be in the past. And I don't have to carry that around with me 369 00:22:54,265 --> 00:22:56,415 anymore, because now I'm going to be saved. 370 00:22:56,660 --> 00:22:57,837 by this person. 371 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,154 And so you're grieving the loss of Joe, but I think he's the most insignificant 372 00:23:02,237 --> 00:23:04,996 part of the loss that you're experiencing right now. 373 00:23:05,079 --> 00:23:08,985 And I think you're so fixated on him and why he decided that this was not 374 00:23:09,069 --> 00:23:13,030 the relationship that he wanted, that you're not really grieving the parts 375 00:23:13,113 --> 00:23:17,238 that are going to be much more helpful for you to grieve so that you can find 376 00:23:17,321 --> 00:23:20,600 the relationship that you want when you're ready to do that. 377 00:23:20,990 --> 00:23:24,510 And that's this idea that there's going to be some kind of 378 00:23:24,710 --> 00:23:29,074 reciprocity in a romantic relationship for you that I don't think you've really had, 379 00:23:29,158 --> 00:23:33,204 that you're going to have something different from what you had in your family 380 00:23:33,288 --> 00:23:35,428 that I don't think that you've really had, 381 00:23:35,512 --> 00:23:39,717 that someone is going to save you from having to deal with the pain of your past, 382 00:23:39,801 --> 00:23:42,153 which no person, no matter how great they are, 383 00:23:42,236 --> 00:23:45,859 even if they do happen to be the right person, can save you from that. 384 00:23:45,943 --> 00:23:47,667 They can't. But I'm going to say, 385 00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:53,436 Instead of focusing so much on Joe and trying to get into his head for an answer 386 00:23:53,519 --> 00:23:58,700 that you will honestly never have, the better use of your time is to say, 387 00:23:58,783 --> 00:24:03,170 why is it so painful for me to be in relationship with people? 388 00:24:03,254 --> 00:24:08,723 Why do I allow people to do things in relationship that are not okay with me? 389 00:24:08,806 --> 00:24:14,275 Those are going to be really important questions for you to get curious about 390 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:19,090 as you're grieving this loss. And it will also help you 391 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,324 to not have so much sharpness around the pain of the future that just went away, 392 00:24:23,407 --> 00:24:27,451 because I think it will help you to get clarity around that it is not the future 393 00:24:27,535 --> 00:24:28,368 that you wanted. 394 00:24:28,850 --> 00:24:34,048 Yeah, I think you're right there. I mean, what's also quite interesting is that when 395 00:24:34,131 --> 00:24:38,763 you pointed out about the stuff with the family and my tolerance for things 396 00:24:38,846 --> 00:24:43,310 that are unacceptable is quite high. And I obviously, I don't know why. 397 00:24:43,580 --> 00:24:48,466 that is um and that is really interesting that you put it that way that i would like 398 00:24:48,549 --> 00:24:53,375 to like look at that as opposed to why i'm trying to get into joe's head and figure 399 00:24:53,459 --> 00:24:58,167 out why this thing didn't work i think that the only problem is that when i think 400 00:24:58,250 --> 00:25:00,720 about it i i don't know what 401 00:25:00,860 --> 00:25:04,314 And the answer and the thing that just keeps coming back to me is just 402 00:25:04,397 --> 00:25:08,103 this massive feeling of pain. And I don't even know if I want to open that. 403 00:25:08,187 --> 00:25:12,095 And I don't know whether that's just that I'm scared of being on my own because 404 00:25:12,178 --> 00:25:15,935 everyone sort of has a family. And I've never really had one, like you said. 405 00:25:16,019 --> 00:25:19,826 We've been quite fractured. I don't speak to my brother for personal reasons. 406 00:25:19,909 --> 00:25:23,060 I don't speak to any of my cousins, really. I am quite isolated. 407 00:25:23,143 --> 00:25:25,707 And I think that's probably why I cling on to that. 408 00:25:25,790 --> 00:25:28,823 romantic partners because I keep thinking, oh, 409 00:25:28,907 --> 00:25:31,669 at least I won't be on my own then. Right. 410 00:25:31,752 --> 00:25:37,160 But you want a partner and future in the future family that do accept you 411 00:25:37,460 --> 00:25:43,860 for who you are that do recognize all that you have to offer that do value 412 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:50,427 having you. And so it's super important that that is what you do. 413 00:25:50,510 --> 00:25:56,727 Look for. in another person, not just their presence or acceptance, but 414 00:25:56,810 --> 00:26:01,380 They're valuing you for who you are. When I hear about Joe, who's a pardier, 415 00:26:01,464 --> 00:26:05,750 and you describe yourself as, I like to go to lectures and read books. 416 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,673 To me, you know, to me, it sounds like he does the math, 417 00:26:09,756 --> 00:26:14,292 looks forward and goes like, yeah, maybe that's not what I want to do in life. 418 00:26:14,376 --> 00:26:19,089 So when you're looking for reasons, one of them is that you just don't sound like 419 00:26:19,172 --> 00:26:20,120 the best person. 420 00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:25,017 match to be honest with you just in terms of what you want out of life how you live 421 00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:29,469 your life yeah i mean he went oh we don't have many interests and i said well 422 00:26:29,553 --> 00:26:34,212 with all due respect i've taken so much of an interest in the things that you like 423 00:26:34,295 --> 00:26:38,838 and you have actually said to my face that you find the stuff that i like boring 424 00:26:38,921 --> 00:26:43,214 that right there is So it's almost like a lot of times when people say, 425 00:26:43,297 --> 00:26:45,990 I don't know why this person broke up with me. 426 00:26:46,073 --> 00:26:50,780 It's not even that you have to intuit it. It's that they've actually told you. 427 00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:54,316 Why? They may not have told you in the breakup conversation, 428 00:26:54,399 --> 00:26:57,880 which would be more ideal. But along the way in the relationship, 429 00:26:57,963 --> 00:27:00,430 they've they've kind of sprinkled in reasons. 430 00:27:00,860 --> 00:27:04,138 And sometimes people choose not to hear those reasons. 431 00:27:04,222 --> 00:27:08,621 I think what happens with you, Sreena, is that any guy that you're with, 432 00:27:08,704 --> 00:27:13,560 whether they want to be with you, becomes a referendum on how lovable you are. 433 00:27:13,730 --> 00:27:20,410 Yes. Yeah, that sounds about right. And that's why you go... 434 00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:25,459 to such great lengths to try to convince them that the relationship is viable. 435 00:27:25,543 --> 00:27:28,483 And so I imagine that when he did say, you know, 436 00:27:28,566 --> 00:27:33,269 I don't think we're right for each other, you heard it as something is wrong 437 00:27:33,353 --> 00:27:37,175 with you. Something is not something is not lovable about you. 438 00:27:37,258 --> 00:27:41,961 And you're trying to say, I'll do anything I can to be up to become lovable. 439 00:27:42,045 --> 00:27:44,690 And the thing is, Sreena, you are lovable. 440 00:27:44,780 --> 00:27:50,421 I And you're also choosing people who are not right for you because it feels 441 00:27:50,504 --> 00:27:55,538 familiar to you. Because that kind of love of not having that feeling of ease, 442 00:27:55,621 --> 00:28:00,261 not having that feeling of I don't have to walk on eggshells and I trust 443 00:28:00,344 --> 00:28:04,065 this person's love. And I truly love them too, by the way, 444 00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:08,264 because I don't hear that you really loved either of these guys, 445 00:28:08,347 --> 00:28:09,790 your ex-fiance or Joe. 446 00:28:15,650 --> 00:28:19,905 your family, which were very problematic. And when you first meet these guys, 447 00:28:19,989 --> 00:28:22,130 you think, oh, this will be different. 448 00:28:22,340 --> 00:28:25,560 This time, it's going to be different. But really, 449 00:28:25,643 --> 00:28:30,778 you have radar for people who will provide the same kind of environment for you 450 00:28:30,862 --> 00:28:33,240 that you had growing up. And then... 451 00:28:33,620 --> 00:28:37,420 Again, you feel like, oh, here it is again. See, I'm not lovable. 452 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,500 Yeah, that sounds pretty much spot on, to be honest. 453 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,560 I think you're right about the, like, it feels familiar. 454 00:28:46,644 --> 00:28:50,409 I feel like I need to work for it and I need to prove that I'm worthy of being 455 00:28:50,493 --> 00:28:53,765 in a relationship. I mean, he was constantly on his phone and, like, 456 00:28:53,848 --> 00:28:56,874 we'd be talking and I'd be like, you're not even present. Like, 457 00:28:56,957 --> 00:28:59,341 you're not listening to me. And it was just, like, 458 00:28:59,425 --> 00:29:01,325 sort of fighting for his relationship. 459 00:29:01,430 --> 00:29:05,277 sort of attention and then when he'd do something so like 460 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,229 He said to me, I found a book that reminded me of use and he bought it 461 00:29:08,312 --> 00:29:11,054 for me. And I just burst into tears because I was like, oh, my God, 462 00:29:11,137 --> 00:29:14,637 this is so lovely. You're so amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. 463 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,014 over a book because I felt like he knew that that's what would make me happy 464 00:29:19,097 --> 00:29:22,901 is just He saw something, thought of me, and it was a book, and I loved to read. 465 00:29:22,984 --> 00:29:26,653 Because it was that unusual for him to do something so thoughtful, apparently, 466 00:29:26,737 --> 00:29:28,237 that it touched you so deeply. 467 00:29:28,610 --> 00:29:32,050 It's almost like, Shrena, that... 468 00:29:32,270 --> 00:29:36,830 You were so hungry for this kind of love growing up. And so as an adult, 469 00:29:36,914 --> 00:29:40,958 you'll take the crumb and the crumb means everything. The crumb, 470 00:29:41,042 --> 00:29:45,150 you try to get the crumb to fill you up, the giving you the book. 471 00:29:45,234 --> 00:29:50,246 That was a crumb that he gave you. And for you, it became an entire meal. Yeah. 472 00:29:50,329 --> 00:29:51,490 Yeah. That's what. 473 00:29:57,910 --> 00:29:59,790 So, Laurie. 474 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:07,000 Do we have some advice? Yeah. What I'm thinking about is that endings matter 475 00:30:07,396 --> 00:30:08,229 a lot. 476 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,392 And they kind of set the tone for how we move on. 477 00:30:12,475 --> 00:30:18,106 They help us sometimes move on in a different way if we can have a better 478 00:30:18,189 --> 00:30:23,015 ending. And so... I'm thinking about how volatile your ending was. And it was, 479 00:30:23,099 --> 00:30:26,486 there was a lot of anger. Nobody really talked about anything. 480 00:30:26,569 --> 00:30:29,467 And I'm thinking about how volatile your ending was. 481 00:30:29,550 --> 00:30:34,794 I feel like here's an opportunity for you to have a different ending with him where 482 00:30:34,877 --> 00:30:40,485 you You give him some information about you that is not angry, 483 00:30:40,568 --> 00:30:46,370 that's very composed, but that's also very much your truth. And. 484 00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:50,081 I'm just thinking about what that might sound like. You know, 485 00:30:50,165 --> 00:30:54,987 I think the easiest thing for him to hear and the most truthful thing is that you 486 00:30:55,071 --> 00:30:59,348 were not the right match for one another. But you might say to him that, 487 00:30:59,432 --> 00:31:02,559 you know, when you're reflecting on the relationship, 488 00:31:02,642 --> 00:31:06,314 you realize that you had a lot of fun together in some points. 489 00:31:06,397 --> 00:31:11,220 But in terms of the long term, you weren't well suited because you have different 490 00:31:11,303 --> 00:31:15,581 interests and probably different expectations about how you want to live 491 00:31:15,664 --> 00:31:16,387 your life. 492 00:31:16,470 --> 00:31:23,222 and that it was a good run for a while, and just something very simple in that way 493 00:31:23,305 --> 00:31:27,390 that emphasizes that you're okay with the ending. 494 00:31:27,990 --> 00:31:34,526 But have this nicely composed, calm, kind of reflective notion of fun for a while. 495 00:31:34,609 --> 00:31:39,130 I appreciated this about you, but ultimately we weren't. 496 00:31:39,630 --> 00:31:43,542 Well matched. And what that does is it it gives you back your voice. 497 00:31:43,625 --> 00:31:48,124 It gives you back your sense of self. You had you had given you had handed him 498 00:31:48,208 --> 00:31:52,707 your self-esteem and it never should have been gifted to him or lent to him in 499 00:31:52,790 --> 00:31:57,172 the first place. That's something that you always need to hold for yourself. 500 00:31:57,255 --> 00:32:00,310 You don't share your self-esteem with somebody else. 501 00:32:00,630 --> 00:32:04,927 That's yours and yours alone. And yes, there's more to it than, you know, 502 00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:07,867 in terms of your feelings. There's a lot of pain, 503 00:32:07,950 --> 00:32:11,947 but I don't know that that's really what you need to share with him. 504 00:32:12,030 --> 00:32:14,947 You certainly did share it with him in your anger, 505 00:32:15,030 --> 00:32:19,807 but just by being able to say, I wish you the best. And there's so much power in, 506 00:32:19,890 --> 00:32:24,487 I wish you the best and not in, you know, your tone is really important there. 507 00:32:24,570 --> 00:32:27,990 It's, there's no edge to it. And so I hope you're able to 508 00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:34,756 mismatch and from a from a deep place of adulthood which is where you need to move 509 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:38,708 your it's almost like you're wearing clothing that doesn't fit anymore you're 510 00:32:38,792 --> 00:32:43,071 wearing all that childhood clothing as you go into each of these relationships and so 511 00:32:43,155 --> 00:32:47,210 if you can wish him from the adult place in yourself and i really wish you well 512 00:32:47,490 --> 00:32:52,724 And leave it at that and you will move on in a much stronger way than the way things 513 00:32:52,807 --> 00:32:57,408 have been left already. Yeah, no, that's that's exactly what I want to do. 514 00:32:57,491 --> 00:33:00,382 And I and I think that you're both right there. 515 00:33:00,466 --> 00:33:05,256 And I'm glad that it in a way that it did happen this way, because obviously, 516 00:33:05,340 --> 00:33:10,130 like you said, I've learned more about myself and what I will and won't stand 517 00:33:10,214 --> 00:33:15,131 for in a relationship. It's it's just obviously always always tough when things 518 00:33:15,214 --> 00:33:16,290 like this happen. 519 00:33:17,490 --> 00:33:20,394 like trying to do it in the way that you said, 520 00:33:20,478 --> 00:33:24,421 hopefully would bring it to a more sort of calm ending. Right. 521 00:33:24,504 --> 00:33:29,830 And in wishing him well, you give yourself permission to wish yourself well. Okay. 522 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,699 that it gives you that kind of freedom and that kind of permission that I don't know 523 00:33:35,783 --> 00:33:40,780 that you let yourself have most of the time. I think you're so concerned about... 524 00:33:40,980 --> 00:33:44,671 what people are thinking about you and I don't think that you are thinking enough 525 00:33:44,754 --> 00:33:45,187 about you. 526 00:33:45,270 --> 00:33:50,084 And then I think, Guy, do you have some other sort of longer term advice? 527 00:33:50,168 --> 00:33:54,730 I do. Here's what I'd like you to do longer term. I'd like you to... 528 00:33:54,900 --> 00:33:57,100 Have a pact with yourself. 529 00:33:57,900 --> 00:33:59,840 And I'd like you to... 530 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,905 really write out, I want you to think back on the relationships that you've had. 531 00:34:04,988 --> 00:34:11,910 And I want you to make a list of two kinds of items. Number one, Thank you. 532 00:34:12,270 --> 00:34:18,070 Limits and things that you really are not okay with in a relationship. 533 00:34:18,153 --> 00:34:23,413 I want you to enumerate. the ways, you know, the limits that you have, 534 00:34:23,496 --> 00:34:26,860 what are the things that you will not tolerate, what, 535 00:34:27,060 --> 00:34:31,767 in a relationship. And I want you to not just go with the big ticket items of, 536 00:34:31,850 --> 00:34:35,943 you know, cheating or betrayal or, you know, any kind of aggression. 537 00:34:36,026 --> 00:34:40,303 I want you to think of the small things like somebody putting you down. 538 00:34:40,387 --> 00:34:44,440 And you'll be surprised that if that is very clear, if it's that a 539 00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:48,115 a line that you will not have crossed. And the first time you're like, okay, 540 00:34:48,198 --> 00:34:50,398 let's be very clear that can't happen again. 541 00:34:50,910 --> 00:34:54,560 They might need one more reminder. But if it's very clear, you know, 542 00:34:54,643 --> 00:34:57,525 so I want you to make a list of those kinds of things, 543 00:34:57,608 --> 00:35:00,105 the things you will not tolerate. And with Joe, 544 00:35:00,188 --> 00:35:04,552 they might have been things like talking on the phone while you're trying to have 545 00:35:04,635 --> 00:35:08,615 a conversation with him, not being reliable in terms of showing up when he 546 00:35:08,698 --> 00:35:10,290 when you made plans with him. 547 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:16,473 Saying things like, I have no interest in being curious about your interests. 548 00:35:16,556 --> 00:35:19,640 But the second part of the list is the do's. 549 00:35:19,890 --> 00:35:23,947 You know, that first part is the don'ts, and then they're the do's. How... 550 00:35:24,030 --> 00:35:26,819 do you want to feel when you're with someone? 551 00:35:26,903 --> 00:35:30,714 And I want you to think of what Laurie said about the crumbs, 552 00:35:30,797 --> 00:35:35,821 the crumbs that are so meaningful. Make a list of those crumbs and ask for them, 553 00:35:35,904 --> 00:35:38,330 expect them to be much more of a meal. 554 00:35:38,940 --> 00:35:42,387 In other words, this idea that somebody is thoughtful is, yes, 555 00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:46,000 it's touching and it's moving. It just shouldn't be that rare. 556 00:35:46,530 --> 00:35:50,518 Because I'm sure those are the kinds of things that you are able to offer someone, 557 00:35:50,602 --> 00:35:52,302 it's absolutely fair to want them. 558 00:35:52,530 --> 00:35:57,306 in some kind of way for yourself. So I want you to make a list of, you know, 559 00:35:57,390 --> 00:36:00,120 the things you would like in a relationship, 560 00:36:00,203 --> 00:36:03,765 the ways you would want to feel when you're with someone. 561 00:36:03,848 --> 00:36:07,537 And then the idea here is that you keep that list with you. 562 00:36:07,620 --> 00:36:10,370 And the next time you start dating someone, 563 00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:13,618 I, this is going to sound like a lot, but I truly mean it. 564 00:36:13,701 --> 00:36:16,240 I want you to read the list before every date. 565 00:36:17,220 --> 00:36:23,617 Let's say at least for a while, because it will remind you to be truer to yourself. 566 00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:26,720 And so literally before every date. 567 00:36:27,150 --> 00:36:31,281 You read that list, you remind yourself, yep, this is what I'm looking for. 568 00:36:31,364 --> 00:36:34,230 And if it's not there, you can decide much earlier. 569 00:36:34,740 --> 00:36:38,001 Laurie said you're getting better at leaving sooner. Good. 570 00:36:38,084 --> 00:36:40,768 Maybe it'll only be one date, two dates a month. 571 00:36:40,851 --> 00:36:43,708 Maybe you give somebody a chance and they snap too. 572 00:36:43,792 --> 00:36:48,263 And you will be surprised, Sharina, that when you do express these expectations 573 00:36:48,346 --> 00:36:52,817 and you do it nicely, you'll be surprised that when you're very clear that this 574 00:36:52,901 --> 00:36:57,340 is the standard, you'll be surprised how many men will rise to that standard. 575 00:37:04,740 --> 00:37:09,518 that you think you deserve, where maybe I'm expecting too much, 576 00:37:09,602 --> 00:37:12,367 and that's where I've kind of now... 577 00:37:12,450 --> 00:37:16,610 sort of gone the other way and been like, oh, I'm chill about everything. 578 00:37:16,693 --> 00:37:20,388 So it's good to hear that you have to have expectations, I guess. 579 00:37:20,471 --> 00:37:24,515 And the people who don't want to do those kinds of things, that's good. 580 00:37:24,598 --> 00:37:28,874 That's good information to have. So instead of being devastated by the fact 581 00:37:28,957 --> 00:37:33,175 that they don't want to do that, and then you take it personally and think 582 00:37:33,259 --> 00:37:37,709 that you're unlovable, that just means that I don't have to be in so much pain 583 00:37:37,792 --> 00:37:40,020 because I'm, I can eliminate that person. 584 00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:43,590 Yeah. Lastly, 585 00:37:44,190 --> 00:37:47,536 Every time you have the thought, either when you're making the list, 586 00:37:47,619 --> 00:37:49,906 working on the list, or when you're reading it, 587 00:37:49,989 --> 00:37:53,083 or when you're dating someone, every time you have the thought, 588 00:37:53,167 --> 00:37:57,118 this might be too much to expect, I want you to ask yourself if those things are 589 00:37:57,201 --> 00:38:01,051 things you are willing to offer. And if they are, it's not too much to expect, 590 00:38:01,135 --> 00:38:04,110 and if they're not, they probably shouldn't be on the list. 591 00:38:04,530 --> 00:38:09,664 Perfect. Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. That would help me a lot, I think, 592 00:38:09,747 --> 00:38:13,950 because I think that I'm super hard on myself and I let everyone else around me 593 00:38:14,033 --> 00:38:18,399 in my relationships get away with my gut. So that would help me make it a bit more 594 00:38:18,482 --> 00:38:22,660 balanced. Definitely. Great. So how do you feel about trying all this advice? 595 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:27,206 Good. I feel really good. I'm going to definitely do the list. 596 00:38:27,290 --> 00:38:31,239 I'm feeling really emotional. So I think that I might have a bit of a cry and it'd 597 00:38:31,323 --> 00:38:32,723 be a cathartic cry, I think. 598 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,120 and I'm definitely going to put the advice to good use. 599 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,831 Yeah. So thank you guys. Honestly, this has been great for me and I can't thank 600 00:38:45,914 --> 00:38:49,742 you guys enough. I'm really, really, really grateful to you both. 601 00:38:49,826 --> 00:38:54,256 And we're grateful to you. Thank you. If you can try that this week to have 602 00:38:54,339 --> 00:38:59,251 that conversation with him, we would love to hear back from you if you can leave us 603 00:38:59,334 --> 00:39:02,862 a voice memo and let us know how that went. Oof. Yeah. Yeah, 604 00:39:02,945 --> 00:39:07,014 I will do that and I'll send that over to you. No problem. Wonderful. 605 00:39:07,097 --> 00:39:08,000 Take care. Bye. 606 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:17,707 So, Serena was really lovely, and I'm glad we got to... 607 00:39:17,790 --> 00:39:21,510 help her see some things that maybe she wasn't able to see before. 608 00:39:21,593 --> 00:39:25,200 What do you think? is going to happen when she tries our advice. 609 00:39:25,980 --> 00:39:30,553 I think she really had two people in her corner and I don't think she's used 610 00:39:30,637 --> 00:39:35,332 to having people in her corner. And I think that she's going to feel empowered 611 00:39:35,416 --> 00:39:40,440 enough to be able to do it in the right way and really get some closure out of it. 612 00:39:55,980 --> 00:39:59,927 but I also feel like she's very motivated and I think she's 613 00:40:00,010 --> 00:40:04,689 hearing that this isn't so much about Jo, but about something larger in her life 614 00:40:04,772 --> 00:40:08,677 and in her relational patterns. And I am really excited to hear how 615 00:40:08,761 --> 00:40:10,130 that conversation goes. 616 00:40:13,230 --> 00:40:16,790 This is Dear Therapist, and we'll be back after a short break. 617 00:40:17,590 --> 00:40:19,390 *music* 618 00:40:21,190 --> 00:40:25,913 Support comes from WISE, the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around 619 00:40:25,997 --> 00:40:29,512 the globe. You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. 620 00:40:29,596 --> 00:40:33,000 Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. 621 00:40:33,460 --> 00:40:38,509 Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. 622 00:40:38,592 --> 00:40:39,800 Choose the WiseCard. 623 00:40:40,180 --> 00:40:43,733 You can spend in over 40 currencies with the exchange rate you'd usually see 624 00:40:43,816 --> 00:40:46,266 on Google, so you can stretch your travel budget. 625 00:40:46,690 --> 00:40:51,330 Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply. 626 00:41:16,690 --> 00:41:20,172 This is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, 627 00:41:20,256 --> 00:41:23,619 being the founder of New Shoes, Good Taste is my business. 628 00:41:23,703 --> 00:41:27,958 And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, 629 00:41:28,041 --> 00:41:30,751 there would be so much more peace in the world. 630 00:41:30,834 --> 00:41:34,079 We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, 631 00:41:34,162 --> 00:41:37,228 getting older and a little wiser. We're best friends, 632 00:41:37,312 --> 00:41:41,650 but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. 633 00:41:53,570 --> 00:41:59,215 liar listen on the iheart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts 634 00:41:59,299 --> 00:42:01,170 i don't really care you 635 00:42:03,140 --> 00:42:09,638 I'm Guy Winch. And I'm Laurie Gottlieb. And this is Dear Therapists. Well, 636 00:42:09,721 --> 00:42:16,721 let's listen to the voicemail. Hi, Guy and Laurie. It's Shreena. After we spoke, 637 00:42:16,835 --> 00:42:22,157 I did feel better. It made me realise that I have a lot of... 638 00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:29,199 unresolved childhood trauma that I need to work through and to that end I am seeing 639 00:42:29,282 --> 00:42:33,440 a therapist weekly to kind of really work through 640 00:42:34,330 --> 00:42:40,084 those sort of feelings that I've had and why I act the way that I do and seem to be 641 00:42:40,167 --> 00:42:42,390 drawn to emotionally unavailable men. 642 00:42:43,420 --> 00:42:46,485 So I think that that is definitely a positive, 643 00:42:46,568 --> 00:42:50,113 something I could definitely take away from our chat. 644 00:42:50,196 --> 00:42:52,660 I've also realised that sometimes... 645 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,910 What you... want to do 646 00:42:57,010 --> 00:43:01,350 isn't healthy for you. So you need to make sure that you follow through with 647 00:43:01,433 --> 00:43:04,670 the healthy thing to do. So for example, 648 00:43:04,780 --> 00:43:07,953 I go backwards and forwards about wanting to have done. 649 00:43:08,036 --> 00:43:10,735 I'm at a place now where actually I don't feel. 650 00:43:10,818 --> 00:43:15,140 But before I was in a place where I wanted to get back together with Joe. 651 00:43:16,180 --> 00:43:20,016 But I realised now that my need was to stay mentally healthy, 652 00:43:20,099 --> 00:43:24,340 to stay emotionally healthy. And in order to do that, I need to... 653 00:43:24,460 --> 00:43:25,660 distance myself 654 00:43:25,780 --> 00:43:30,801 from him and realize okay what is the underlying issue here why do I feel 655 00:43:30,884 --> 00:43:35,625 the need to to put myself in that situation and that is another thing 656 00:43:35,708 --> 00:43:40,869 that I've learned that I find it really hard to sit with difficult emotions 657 00:43:40,952 --> 00:43:42,700 and that's something that 658 00:43:42,910 --> 00:43:49,090 I want to work on. So I'm trying to use this. As a learning tool. So. 659 00:43:49,180 --> 00:43:54,857 I'm... hopeful for the future and hopefully on the other side I will 660 00:43:54,940 --> 00:44:01,490 have a relationship that I deserve and that is something that I've... 661 00:44:01,690 --> 00:44:07,000 always wanted and have yet to receive. So, Yeah, thank you so much. 662 00:44:07,780 --> 00:44:11,240 I'm totally indebted to you both. 663 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:16,500 And I really appreciate everything you did in that time we shared together. 664 00:44:23,530 --> 00:44:28,367 Quite a few different levels for me. Unexpected and really good. 665 00:44:28,450 --> 00:44:31,930 Good in some ways. She seemed to have learned... 666 00:44:32,290 --> 00:44:37,352 so much about the work that she needs to do that she wasn't aware of before 667 00:44:37,436 --> 00:44:42,647 and really separating out what is historical for her. What is something that 668 00:44:42,730 --> 00:44:48,924 went on in the past that is driving her behavior now and how much is really about 669 00:44:49,008 --> 00:44:52,007 joe who clearly was not compatible with 670 00:44:52,090 --> 00:44:55,830 with her. And, you know, I found it interesting that, you know, 671 00:44:56,170 --> 00:45:00,580 She didn't actually... Follow the suggestion that we asked her to do, 672 00:45:00,663 --> 00:45:03,996 which was that conversation with Joe about their, you know, 673 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,876 really owning the fact that she sees that they were not compatible. 674 00:45:07,959 --> 00:45:12,218 So she doesn't feel like the victim, because I think she came to realize in 675 00:45:12,302 --> 00:45:16,561 our conversation that really this was not the right person for her as well. 676 00:45:16,644 --> 00:45:17,860 And to wish him well. 677 00:45:17,950 --> 00:45:21,795 Right. That was part of the advice. But what was interesting was, I think, 678 00:45:21,878 --> 00:45:26,147 as therapists, we see that sometimes we will suggest something to someone and they 679 00:45:26,231 --> 00:45:29,150 do something different that is equally useful for them. 680 00:45:47,950 --> 00:45:50,782 to hear. Yeah, I love the way she put it where she said, 681 00:45:50,865 --> 00:45:55,050 there's a difference between what I want in the moment and what I need for myself. 682 00:45:55,133 --> 00:45:58,902 And even this small little tidbit she threw in there, which I think is so, 683 00:45:58,985 --> 00:46:02,858 so valuable of like, yes, and I know I need to be able to sit with difficult 684 00:46:02,941 --> 00:46:06,033 emotions. Yes, you do. And good for you for remembering that. 685 00:46:06,116 --> 00:46:10,093 So I'm really hopeful that she's going to be able to go forward in a much more 686 00:46:10,176 --> 00:46:12,050 positive way and make these changes. 687 00:46:17,950 --> 00:46:21,661 universal. And what we talked to her about applies to so many people. 688 00:46:21,744 --> 00:46:25,840 And what I loved about Shreena was that she immediately said, you know what, 689 00:46:25,923 --> 00:46:30,349 this is really hard. My instinct and what would feel better in the moment is to do 690 00:46:30,432 --> 00:46:34,418 this thing that's not healthy for me and to just continue my old patterns. 691 00:46:34,502 --> 00:46:38,377 But I know I need to do something different in order to have a different 692 00:46:38,461 --> 00:46:42,090 outcome. And I think we can all learn something from that example. 693 00:46:48,390 --> 00:46:51,658 That brings us to the end of our show for this week. 694 00:46:51,742 --> 00:46:55,719 Thank you so much for listening. You can follow us both online. 695 00:46:55,802 --> 00:47:00,553 I'm at laurigotlieb.com, and you can follow me on Twitter at laurigotlieb1, 696 00:47:00,636 --> 00:47:05,470 or on Instagram at laurigotlieb underscore author. And I'm at guywinch.com. 697 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,720 And on Instagram, at Guy Winch. 698 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,539 If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, big or small, 699 00:47:12,622 --> 00:47:15,429 email us at lauriemguy at iheartmedia.com. 700 00:47:15,512 --> 00:47:18,663 Our executive producer is Christopher Haciotis. 701 00:47:18,747 --> 00:47:24,100 We're produced and edited by Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and 702 00:47:24,183 --> 00:47:27,280 to our podcast fairy godmother, Katie Couric. 703 00:47:27,820 --> 00:47:31,879 Next week, we'll talk about the challenges of blending families together when young 704 00:47:31,962 --> 00:47:33,062 children are involved. 705 00:47:33,310 --> 00:47:37,361 and say, oh, everything is going fine. Maybe today's going to be a good day. 706 00:47:37,444 --> 00:47:41,005 And I certainly don't know what to say when she's like, I hate you. 707 00:47:41,089 --> 00:47:44,570 Get away from me. Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio. 708 00:47:49,330 --> 00:47:50,163 you 709 00:47:51,850 --> 00:47:56,719 Support comes from WISE, the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around 710 00:47:56,802 --> 00:48:00,143 the globe. You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. 711 00:48:00,226 --> 00:48:03,650 Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. 712 00:48:04,090 --> 00:48:09,155 Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. 713 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:10,450 Choose the WiseCard. 714 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,380 You can spend in over 40 currencies with the exchange rate you'd usually see 715 00:48:14,464 --> 00:48:16,914 on Google, so you can stretch your travel budget. 716 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,980 Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply. 717 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,100 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 718 00:48:53,590 --> 00:48:57,030 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.