# Encore: Ep. 1 - Shrina's Broken Heart

*Dear Therapists with Lori Gottlieb and Guy Winch* · https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1523340696?i=1000486591301

## Summary

In this encore episode, therapists Lori Gottlieb and Guy Winch counsel Shreena, who is grieving a nine-month breakup with Joe after ending the relationship herself. They explore how her unresolved childhood pain and high tolerance for unacceptable behavior led her to mold herself for partners and treat crumbs of affection as full meals. Shreena later reports that she began weekly therapy, chose distance from Joe over reuniting, and is learning to sit with difficult emotions.

## Key points

- Shreena ended the nine-month relationship after Joe said he loved her but wasn't sure it was 'in the right way' and wouldn't work on it.
- Guy explains that infatuation either transitions into deeper love or doesn't, and it's about chemistry between two people, not something she did wrong.
- Lori notes Shreena is grieving three losses: the person, the dream of being done dating, and the dailiness of a relationship.
- Lori observes that Shreena's tumultuous background raised her tolerance for unacceptable behavior, and she handed her self-esteem to her partners.
- Lori advises a calm, composed ending conversation with Joe, wishing him well from an adult place to reclaim her voice.
- Guy's homework: make a list of don'ts (things she won't tolerate) and do's (how she wants to feel), and read it before every date.
- Guy adds that if something is on the list and she's willing to offer it herself, it's not too much to expect.
- In her follow-up voicemail, Shreena says she is seeing a therapist weekly and realized the difference between what she wants in the moment and what she needs for her health.

## Notes

### Overview
This encore session features Shreena, 29, who broke up with her boyfriend Joe after nine months. Joe told her he loved her but wasn't sure it was 'in the right way,' couldn't explain why his feelings changed, and wanted to be friends. Shreena is haunted by questions like 'why wasn't I enough for him?' and worries she was the problem.

### Why the breakup wasn't her fault
Guy explains that infatuation is temporary; once it fades, a relationship either transitions into deeper love or it doesn't make that leap. This is about the chemistry between two people, not something she did. Lori adds that Shreena is grieving three separate losses: the actual person, the idea that she was done dating, and the dailiness of being in a relationship.

### Patterns from childhood
Shreena's past includes a five-year engagement that ended in 2016 with 'I don't love you anymore,' a rebound relationship, and a fractured family she doesn't speak to. Lori and Guy observe that her tumultuous background raised her tolerance for unacceptable behavior, and that she has 'radar' for partners who recreate the familiar environment of her childhood. She molds herself into shapes partners want, hands over her self-esteem, and treats crumbs of thoughtfulness (like Joe buying her a book) as entire meals.

### Lori's advice: a better ending
Endings matter and set the tone for moving on. Lori suggests Shreena have a calm, composed conversation with Joe, acknowledging they had fun but weren't well matched, and wish him well from an adult place — with no edge in her tone. In wishing him well, she gives herself permission to wish herself well.

### Guy's advice: the list
Guy asks Shreena to make two lists: don'ts (things she won't tolerate, including small things like being put down or a partner being on the phone during conversations) and do's (how she wants to feel with someone). She should read the list before every date. If something on the list is something she's willing to offer herself, it's not too much to expect.

### Follow-up
In her voicemail, Shreena reports she is seeing a therapist weekly to work through childhood trauma, chose distance from Joe over reuniting, and learned the difference between what she wants in the moment and what she needs to stay mentally and emotionally healthy.

## Transcript

[00:00] This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Support comes from Wise, the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around the globe. You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. Choose the Wise card. You can spend in over 40 currencies with the exchange rate you'd usually see on Google, so you can stretch your travel budget. Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwanu. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart.

[00:45] And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, Good Taste is my business. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, dear therapist listeners, it's Lori and Guy, and we have a quick update. Many of you have told us that you get something new out of each episode when you listen to it again the second or third time. In fact, when we listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we didn't remember were there. Therapy is like that, too. There are so many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to absorb them all at once.

[01:28] So while we're not taping new episodes right now, we are offering you our most popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to gain value from them. We love doing Dear Therapists episodes, but we're each busy with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love just as much. I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts. And I have a new book coming out. It's called Mind Over Grind, How to Break Free When Work Hijacks Your Life. And it will be published by Simon & Schuster. You can find out more about it on my website, guywinch.com. You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile, we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable as we have, making them for you.

[02:15] hey fellow travelers i'm laurie gottlieb i'm the author of maybe you should talk to someone and i write the dear therapist advice column for the atlantic and i guy winch i wrote emotional first aid and I write the Dear Guy column for TED And this is Dear Therapists This week we'll talk through a problem familiar to a lot of people, a breakup and a broken heart. It makes me sad because I kind of keep thinking like, is there something that I could have done differently or better? And they don't have the answer to the question. It's just, oh, I just don't love you. And that's what hurts. Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself in the process. Before we begin, just a note about today's episode.

[03:02] As of this taping, we're still in the midst of COVID-19, and as a result, we are all taping from home. And because homes can be full of background noises and signs of life that you wouldn't get in a recording studio, you may notice some of that in this episode before we worked all the kinks out. Thanks for your understanding, and here we go with episode one of Dear Therapists. We hope you enjoy it.

[03:29] So Guy, I saw this letter in our box this week and I wanted to bring it to you specifically because of the TED Talk that you did on how to fix a broken heart. And this is a letter about heartbreak and here's how it goes. Dear Therapists, I'm going through a breakup and having a hard time. My boyfriend and I had been dating for nine months when I made the decision to break up with him after a month of him telling me he loved me, but wasn't sure if it was in the right way. It was so hurtful. He couldn't explain why his feelings had changed or when. He also didn't want to work on it, but he wanted to be friends. The relationship wasn't perfect. While we were dating, he started using drugs recreationally, and his drinking was becoming a problem for me.

[04:15] I knew I had to end it after trying my best to talk about how I was feeling and having it fall on deaf ears. I was confused because he said that I was perfect, yet he wasn't feeling it, but didn't have the courage to break up with me until I ended it with him. We tried to keep in touch for a week or two after splitting up, but I couldn't maintain the facade, and it was giving me false hope that he'd realize what he'd lost and come back to me. He didn't and hasn't. Now I'm haunted by questions like, why wasn't I enough for him? What happened to make him love me differently or cause him to change? I worry that he'll find someone else and treat her better and love her. I'm worried I was the problem.

[04:54] We need to arrange swapping our stuff once the lockdown has lifted which is making me anxious I angry and sad and keep bursting into tears sporadically I just exhausted I haven been able to sleep Do you have any advice for me? Many thanks. Shrina. Okay, good. First of all, good for her, really good for her for doing the breaking up. There are many people in that situation that just stay in this very painful position of being with someone who they can tell doesn't love them enough. But they stay hoping something will change, which it often doesn't, usually doesn't. So her healthy response of saying, look, if you're not feeling it, then let's not, I think is a really healthy response and good for her for pulling the plug.

[05:41] Certainly she needed to. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's one of those things where she thinks that something changed. She says he couldn't explain why what he's feeling changed or when, but he also didn't want to work on it. And he wanted to be friends. And I think that that's what's so confusing for people is when you want when the person likes you enough to want to be friends with you, but they didn't want to be with you in the way they didn't feel, you know, that they were in love with you. People feel like, well, why? I did something to make this happen, as opposed to maybe it's just not the right match. Well, what happens is that at first there's this level of infatuation typically that happens, which is temporary.

[06:24] That's infatuation is the heady stuff that people get excited about at the beginning. It can last, you know, a date and it can last for a while. But once the infatuation starts to fade and then there's a more realistic assessment of the relationship, then it either transitions into something that's deeper, you know, in terms of love and a deeper kind of romantic love and the passion is still there or it just doesn't make that leap. But this is not about her doing something that changed his feelings. It's about something between the chemistry of those two didn't allow his feelings to make the leap. But I think that it's important to not blame oneself, but to explore and be curious about what didn't work.

[07:09] Has this happened to her before? What might have been happening here? Not not because there's something wrong with her at all, just because maybe there was something. I think there are two people, you know, in a relationship. And so he had his role in it and she had her role in it. And just to be aware of her own role in whatever might have happened And I think there this other part of it that has nothing to do with him that helpful for her to consider too which is when you get into a new relationship, there's always so much hope that this is going to be it. This is going to be the one. I will not be dating anymore. This is my person. And I think that when it doesn't work out, there's the loss of the actual person, but there's also the loss of the idea that you were done

[07:58] dating. And that is its own loss that is unrelated to the person that is no longer there. And then there's a third loss, which is just the loss of what it's like to be in a relationship, which is the dailiness of it, the person that you tell what happened today, the person you check in with every day, the person you're cooking dinner with. So all of that, then you have to go back to square one again. The more number of times that you do this, the harder it is every time when you have to start over at square one. I agree. I think, I so agree with what you said, because I think that that loss of the dream is often bigger than the loss of the person. Yes. You're listening to Dear Therapist from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break.

[08:46] Support comes from Wise, the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around the globe. You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. Choose the Wise card. You can spend in over 40 currencies with the exchange rate you'd usually see on Google, so you can stretch your travel budget. Be smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwano. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one,

[09:32] which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not going to get anywhere. You're fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, Good Taste is my business, and I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, Getting older and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care.

[10:28] This is Dear Therapists. Thanks for listening. Well, let's talk to her and get some more information and then give her some suggestions. Yeah, I'm excited to find out some more. Well, Shreena, welcome and thank you so much for sending us your letter. I think it's something that so many people are dealing with right now and we would love to give you some guidance on this and also hear a little bit more about what's going on. That would be wonderful. Thank you for inviting me. are very, very welcome. And let me just say, heartbreak is rough to begin with. It's really rough during a shutdown because that makes everything a little bit more difficult. I think you said it was a nine-month relationship. I'm just curious about what you might have noticed or what things that

[11:14] registered as maybe problematic? Well, we met at a party and he was... sort of, not sort of a neutral friend of ours, but she was quite into him and he didn't really feel the same way and he did kind of lead her on and she was an old friend of mine that was my first sort of thing of like well I don't know if I want to get involved in this so I actually said in the first instance like no I'm not interested we left it for two weeks and then we he called me just to say look I just wanted to make sure that you're okay because that said friend had started sending me really horrible messages and to him as well. And he sort of apologized on her behalf and said to me that what he did was wrong and he shouldn't have done it, but he really wants to take me out on a date and blah, blah. So then we ended up going on a date and it kind of ignited very quickly and

[12:06] I was a bit anxious about that, but it was also nice because I was engaged back in 2016, but that didn't work out. The first red flag, I have to say, I don't know if that would count as one, but the first one was when... He lives in London. I live in outside of London. So the culture in London is a lot like I'm guessing New York City where it's like going out and then drinking and having fun. And I noticed that he was drinking a lot. He was meant to come and meet me and he didn't. And I just said, I'm done. I'm not hanging around waiting for you. I don't want to do this anymore because obviously you're choosing to going out as opposed to hanging out with me, which is what we planned to do. But he was crying and hysterical. And he was just like, oh, I've made a mistake. This is a wake up call. You mean too much to me. I don't want to lose you. So we tried again. And that's why I feel like I'm so angry, because if I just stuck to my guns the first time, then I wouldn't be where I am now. So that that happened pretty early on when you knew that there was something else that you weren't OK with. Yeah. Tell me what.

[13:09] made you overlook that? What were the positive things about the relationship that made you think, oh, but it's okay. I want to see what happens here. I think it was because I've never had a guy – like cry about how sorry they were. I've never had a guy actually express that sort of emotion. I noticed that my past relationships, the guys that I were, was seeing or was dating were quite emotionally unavailable. So they weren't ever very emotionally expressive. So this guy was like, really upset and I was just thinking, wow, so maybe he must be really sorry. And I kind of felt, and this is going to sound awful, but I felt guilty because I felt like I knew better and I felt like perhaps maybe he...

[13:53] this was his first major relationship. The last relationship he was in, he was 16. They finished when he was 21. He's now 27. So this was his first adult, I would say, relationship. So I thought, you know, I know better. He didn't mean it. He wants to try. He's made that sort of apology. Then surely... I should... try to and not just give up at the first hurdle so I think it was just sort of Yeah. I don't know if that was it. Well, clearly wasn't the right thing to do. Well, you know, you said this was he's 27 and this was the first relationship for him since a long time. How old are you and what were your relationships like before this? So I'm 29. I'm going to be 30 on Sunday. My first relationship was, well, my engagement ended in 2016. But I was with that guy for like five years and he said that he didn't love me anymore.

[14:47] around looked at me in the house that we were living in and just said oh I don't love you anymore And I had to leave. So I was like, oh, OK. How did you grieve the loss of that relationship? I didn't actually. I actually got straight into like a rebound relationship with someone who was just as probably in as much of a mess as I was. And that went on for like a year. And I think I just jumped into something else and I didn't have a very good family life. And I was just kind of, didn't want to really deal with the fact that I had lost someone that was so important to me. So I didn't really grieve that relationship at all. I think that when I managed to finally escape the rebound, I think a lot of that was grieving was done in between those sorts of things. You know, Guy, I want to say, I want to say this sort of to Guy and also to you, Shreena, that what I'm noticing, and I'll bet that Guy is thinking the same thing,

[15:47] to realize that a relationship is not actually working for you and the time that it ends, even if you didn't end it, right? You're not spending as much time with someone who isn't right for you or who isn't meeting your needs or who isn't really appropriate in terms of where they are in their life or what their readiness is for the kind of relationship you want. Well, I mean, I hope so. I think the thing is, is that I guess... It makes me sad because I kind of keep thinking, like, is there something that I could have done? differently or better because it kind of just feels like the go-to sentence for both Joe, who is my recent ex, and Matt, who's my ex-fiance, was, I just don't love you anymore. And I just, that's what makes me think, well...

[16:36] how, why, when, and they don't have the answer to the question. It's just, oh, I just don't love you. And that's what hurts because it's kind of like, well, then what did I do? And then, and then it's just, it's just, you can't answer that question. Yeah. You know, I have a little bit of suspicion. I'm not sure about this at all, mind you, but I have a little suspicion that it's more about what you don't do than what you do. And why I say it might be related more to what you don't do, it's possible that when you have a background that's a little tumultuous, it makes your tolerance for certain things higher than it should be.

[17:20] You just learn to tolerate that. It doesn't, you know, disturb you as much as it might disturb someone else who doesn't have that tolerance. And so it's possible with some of these guys that you are overlooking things because, yes, it's slightly a problem, but I can manage it. When the problem with managing it is that it communicates to them that you're OK with it when, in essence, you're not. Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, that is right. I even said that if I take you back, then I'm sort of enabling this behavior and saying that it's OK, I can't do that. But I guess I'm just a bit of a sucker because he was like, oh, no, no, I won't. Like, you know, this is my wake up call. I've changed. I've changed. It was just kind of like downhill from there. Here's something I want you to remember for next time. And that is that when he has this moment where he's crying and he's promising and it's all going to be great. It's OK to give the person a chance. But.

[18:15] in this condition. You give them a chance and then you have your eyes extraordinarily wide open for the first violation of whatever that promise was. And then you have to really call them on it and say, uh-uh, it might be half an hour later, a day, a week, a month. But It's that first time where they're violating whatever the promise is that you can't overlook it, because if you do, then they just fall into the old behavior immediately. And there goes the promise. If you call them on it, they have a decision point to make of either. OK, either they're back in or they're not. But at least in that point, you know, you know, you had been asking about, you know, what did I do to make them fall out of love with me?

[19:01] as opposed to wondering how can I be a chameleon and be the kind of person that they want me to be so that they'll love me. Yeah, I think that's my main problem because I find myself trying to mould myself into shapes for my partner the way that they want me to be. Like, for example, with Joe, he wasn't happy with my life choices. He was like, you shouldn't be doing this, you shouldn't be doing that. And it kind of just made me feel like, why can't you just accept me as I am? And he just said, oh, because I'm trying to push you to be better because you're so bright and you're so intelligent and you can do this, you can do that, but you've got comfortable. And it just made me feel really bad about myself. And I think that's really a good point that I have tried to like...

[19:47] change who I am to try and make my partner's I guess, like me more. Well, I think in this last relationship, it sounds like you were trying to be the cool girl, the laid back girl, the girl who's like, Yeah, I'm cool with that. It's OK. And the more that people try to say, I'm going to be someone who I'm not to become the person that this other person wants, the less chance that relationship is going to work. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I just, I feel like, I don't know what I don't know. I don't know. I kept saying this to him. I was like, what did I do? I don't understand. And he was like, I don't understand either. He's like, I do love you, but I don't know if it's in the right way. And I just felt like I was banging my head against a wall. And it's so hard to not feel like,

[20:32] you're the one You lose all your self-esteem. So you handed your self-esteem to him to be the holder of your self-esteem. Yeah. That's a very dangerous way to go about being in relationship with somebody. Yeah. You talk a lot about what you thought he liked about you and then suddenly he wasn't as invested. What did you like about him? I'm not hearing anything positive about him yet. Yeah, I mean, he made me laugh. He was really funny. And we went out and experienced a lot of things together. We always were doing things. It's a complete polar opposite of my relationship with my ex, where we just sat and did nothing in the house. So we were like always doing something. It was always fun. There was always something happening.

[21:21] go, go, go. And I, you know, I liked that. And I mean, I hate to sound really superficial, but he was really good looking as well. So, yeah, I think those are like the three things that I really liked about him. You know, what's interesting is that I think that. Sometimes you... and by you I mean most people, try and make a relationship work in the moment. without thinking enough about whether it's sustainable, long term. And when you start thinking long term, you have to ask yourself whether you want to sign on for that forever with that person who will always know better than you what's best for you and always have an opinion about what you shouldn't shouldn't do. I mean, and this is what I said to him. I said, I've always supported you, yet you can't do the same thing for me. I don't understand why that's the case. So you said you're about to turn 30. Yeah.

[22:17] You've gone through, you had a long engagement that didn't work out. And now here you are. And it sounds like you're worried about, you know, meeting somebody. And then you had this idea of, oh, here it is. Here's my answer. Here's my solution in the form of Joe. And there he was. And he materialized. And it all sounded so exciting. And we're going to get married. And we're so, this is so fun. And he's so different from my former fiance. And this is going to be great. that trouble being loved and learning to love, that's all going to be in the past. And I don't have to carry that around with me anymore, because now I'm going to be saved. by this person. And so you're grieving the loss of Joe, but I think he's the most insignificant part of the loss that you're experiencing right now. And I think you're so fixated on him and why he decided that this was not the relationship that he wanted, that you're not really grieving the parts that are going to be much more helpful for you to grieve so that you can find the relationship that you want when you're ready to do that.

[23:20] And that's this idea that there's going to be some kind of reciprocity in a romantic relationship for you that I don't think you've really had, that you're going to have something different from what you had in your family that I don't think that you've really had, that someone is going to save you from having to deal with the pain of your past, which no person, no matter how great they are, even if they do happen to be the right person, can save you from that. They can't. But I'm going to say, Instead of focusing so much on Joe and trying to get into his head for an answer that you will honestly never have, the better use of your time is to say, why is it so painful for me to be in relationship with people? Why do I allow people to do things in relationship that are not okay with me? Those are going to be really important questions for you to get curious about as you're grieving this loss.

[24:17] And it will also help you to not have so much sharpness around the pain of the future that just went away, because I think it will help you to get clarity around that it is not the future that you wanted. Yeah, I think you're right there. I mean, what's also quite interesting is that when you pointed out about the stuff with the family and my tolerance for things that are unacceptable is quite high. And I obviously, I don't know why. that is um and that is really interesting that you put it that way that i would like to like look at that as opposed to why i'm trying to get into joe's head and figure out why this thing didn't work i think that the only problem is that when i think about it i i

[24:59] don't know what And the answer and the thing that just keeps coming back to me is just this massive feeling of pain. And I don't even know if I want to open that. And I don't know whether that's just that I'm scared of being on my own because everyone sort of has a family. And I've never really had one, like you said. We've been quite fractured. I don't speak to my brother for personal reasons. I don't speak to any of my cousins, really. I am quite isolated. And I think that's probably why I cling on to that. romantic partners because I keep thinking, oh, at least I won't be on my own then. Right. But you want a partner and future in the future family that do accept you for who you are that do recognize all that you have to offer that do value

[25:44] having you. And so it's super important that that is what you do. Look for. in another person, not just their presence or acceptance, but They're valuing you for who you are. When I hear about Joe, who's a pardier, and you describe yourself as, I like to go to lectures and read books. To me, you know, to me, it sounds like he does the math, looks forward and goes like, yeah, maybe that's not what I want to do in life. So when you're looking for reasons, one of them is that you just don't sound like the best person. match to be honest with you just in terms of what you want out of life how you live your life yeah i mean he went oh we don't have many interests and i said well with all due respect i've taken so much of an interest in the things that you like and you have actually said to my face that you find the stuff that i like boring that right there is

[26:40] So it's almost like a lot of times when people say, I don't know why this person broke up with me. It's not even that you have to intuit it. It's that they've actually told you. Why? They may not have told you in the breakup conversation, which would be more ideal. But along the way in the relationship, they've they've kind of sprinkled in reasons. And sometimes people choose not to hear those reasons. I think what happens with you, Sreena, is that any guy that you're with, whether they want to be with you, becomes a referendum on how lovable you are. Yes. Yeah, that sounds about right. And that's why you go... to such great lengths to try to convince them that the relationship is viable. And so I imagine that when he did say, you know, I don't think we're right for each other, you heard it as something is wrong with you. Something is not something is not lovable about you. And you're trying to say, I'll do anything I can to be up to become lovable. And the thing is, Sreena, you are lovable.

[27:44] I And you're also choosing people who are not right for you because it feels familiar to you. Because that kind of love of not having that feeling of ease, not having that feeling of I don't have to walk on eggshells and I trust this person's love. And I truly love them too, by the way, because I don't hear that you really loved either of these guys, your ex-fiance or Joe.

[28:15] your family, which were very problematic. And when you first meet these guys, you think, oh, this will be different. This time, it's going to be different. But really, you have radar for people who will provide the same kind of environment for you that you had growing up. And then... Again, you feel like, oh, here it is again. See, I'm not lovable. Yeah, that sounds pretty much spot on, to be honest. I think you're right about the, like, it feels familiar. I feel like I need to work for it and I need to prove that I'm worthy of being in a relationship. I mean, he was constantly on his phone and, like, we'd be talking and I'd be like, you're not even present. Like, you're not listening to me. And it was just, like, sort of fighting for his relationship.

[29:01] sort of attention and then when he'd do something so like He said to me, I found a book that reminded me of use and he bought it for me. And I just burst into tears because I was like, oh, my God, this is so lovely. You're so amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. over a book because I felt like he knew that that's what would make me happy is just He saw something, thought of me, and it was a book, and I loved to read. Because it was that unusual for him to do something so thoughtful, apparently, that it touched you so deeply. It's almost like, Shrena, that... You were so hungry for this kind of love growing up. And so as an adult, you'll take the crumb and the crumb means everything. The crumb, you try to get the crumb to fill you up, the giving you the book. That was a crumb that he gave you. And for you, it became an entire meal. Yeah. Yeah. That's what.

[29:57] So, Laurie. Do we have some advice? Yeah. What I'm thinking about is that endings matter a lot. And they kind of set the tone for how we move on. They help us sometimes move on in a different way if we can have a better ending. And so... I'm thinking about how volatile your ending was. And it was, there was a lot of anger. Nobody really talked about anything. And I'm thinking about how volatile your ending was. I feel like here's an opportunity for you to have a different ending with him where you You give him some information about you that is not angry, that's very composed, but that's also very much your truth. And. I'm just thinking about what that might sound like. You know, I think the easiest thing for him to hear and the most truthful thing is that you were not the right match for one another. But you might say to him that, you know, when you're reflecting on the relationship, you realize that you had a lot of fun together in some points. But in terms of the long term, you weren't well suited because you have different interests and probably different expectations about how you want to live your life.

[31:16] and that it was a good run for a while, and just something very simple in that way that emphasizes that you're okay with the ending. But have this nicely composed, calm, kind of reflective notion of fun for a while. I appreciated this about you, but ultimately we weren't. Well matched. And what that does is it it gives you back your voice. It gives you back your sense of self. You had you had given you had handed him your self-esteem and it never should have been gifted to him or lent to him in the first place. That's something that you always need to hold for yourself. You don't share your self-esteem with somebody else. That's yours and yours alone. And yes, there's more to it than, you know, in terms of your feelings. There's a lot of pain, but I don't know that that's really what you need to share with him. You certainly did share it with him in your anger, but just by being able to say, I wish you the best. And there's so much power in, I wish you the best and not in, you know, your tone is really important there. It's, there's no edge to it. And so I hope you're able to

[32:30] mismatch and from a from a deep place of adulthood which is where you need to move your it's almost like you're wearing clothing that doesn't fit anymore you're wearing all that childhood clothing as you go into each of these relationships and so if you can wish him from the adult place in yourself and i really wish you well And leave it at that and you will move on in a much stronger way than the way things have been left already. Yeah, no, that's that's exactly what I want to do. And I and I think that you're both right there. And I'm glad that it in a way that it did happen this way, because obviously, like you said, I've learned more about myself and what I will and won't stand for in a relationship. It's it's just obviously always always tough when things like this happen.

[33:17] like trying to do it in the way that you said, hopefully would bring it to a more sort of calm ending. Right. And in wishing him well, you give yourself permission to wish yourself well. Okay. that it gives you that kind of freedom and that kind of permission that I don't know that you let yourself have most of the time. I think you're so concerned about... what people are thinking about you and I don't think that you are thinking enough about you. And then I think, Guy, do you have some other sort of longer term advice? I do. Here's what I'd like you to do longer term. I'd like you to... Have a pact with yourself. And I'd like you to... really write out, I want you to think back on the relationships that you've had. And I want you to make

[34:06] a list of two kinds of items. Number one, Thank you. Limits and things that you really are not okay with in a relationship. I want you to enumerate. the ways, you know, the limits that you have, what are the things that you will not tolerate, what, in a relationship. And I want you to not just go with the big ticket items of, you know, cheating or betrayal or, you know, any kind of aggression. I want you to think of the small things like somebody putting you down. And you'll be surprised that if that is very clear, if it's that a a line that you will not have crossed. And the first time you're like, okay, let's be very clear that can't happen again. They might need one more reminder. But if it's very clear, you know, so I want you to make a list of those kinds of things, the things you will not tolerate. And with Joe, they might have been things like talking on the phone while you're trying to have a conversation with him, not being reliable in terms of showing up when he when you made plans with him.

[35:11] Saying things like, I have no interest in being curious about your interests. But the second part of the list is the do's. You know, that first part is the don'ts, and then they're the do's. How... do you want to feel when you're with someone? And I want you to think of what Laurie said about the crumbs, the crumbs that are so meaningful. Make a list of those crumbs and ask for them, expect them to be much more of a meal. In other words, this idea that somebody is thoughtful is, yes, it's touching and it's moving. It just shouldn't be that rare. Because I'm sure those are the kinds of things that you are able to offer someone, it's absolutely fair to want them. in some kind of way for yourself. So I want you to make a list of, you know, the things you would like in a relationship, the ways you would want to feel when you're with someone. And then the idea here is that you keep that list with you. And the next time you start dating someone,

[36:10] I, this is going to sound like a lot, but I truly mean it. I want you to read the list before every date. Let's say at least for a while, because it will remind you to be truer to yourself. And so literally before every date. You read that list, you remind yourself, yep, this is what I'm looking for. And if it's not there, you can decide much earlier. Laurie said you're getting better at leaving sooner. Good. Maybe it'll only be one date, two dates a month. Maybe you give somebody a chance and they snap too. And you will be surprised, Sharina, that when you do express these expectations and you do it nicely, you'll be surprised that when you're very clear that this is the standard, you'll be surprised how many men will rise to that standard.

[37:04] that you think you deserve, where maybe I'm expecting too much, and that's where I've kind of now... sort of gone the other way and been like, oh, I'm chill about everything. So it's good to hear that you have to have expectations, I guess. And the people who don't want to do those kinds of things, that's good. That's good information to have. So instead of being devastated by the fact that they don't want to do that, and then you take it personally and think that you're unlovable, that just means that I don't have to be in so much pain because I'm, I can eliminate that person. Yeah. Lastly, Every time you have the thought, either when you're making the list, working on the list, or when you're reading it, or when you're dating someone, every time you have the thought, this might be too much to expect, I want you to ask yourself if those things are things you are willing to offer. And if they are, it's not too much to expect, and if they're not, they probably shouldn't be on the list.

[38:04] Perfect. Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. That would help me a lot, I think, because I think that I'm super hard on myself and I let everyone else around me in my relationships get away with my gut. So that would help me make it a bit more balanced. Definitely. Great. So how do you feel about trying all this advice? Good. I feel really good. I'm going to definitely do the list. I'm feeling really emotional. So I think that I might have a bit of a cry and it'd be a cathartic cry, I think.

[38:36] and I'm definitely going to put the advice to good use. Yeah. So thank you guys. Honestly, this has been great for me and I can't thank you guys enough. I'm really, really, really grateful to you both. And we're grateful to you. Thank you. If you can try that this week to have that conversation with him, we would love to hear back from you if you can leave us a voice memo and let us know how that went. Oof. Yeah. Yeah, I will do that and I'll send that over to you. No problem. Wonderful. Take care. Bye.

[39:11] So, Serena was really lovely, and I'm glad we got to... help her see some things that maybe she wasn't able to see before. What do you think? is going to happen when she tries our advice. I think she really had two people in her corner and I don't think she's used to having people in her corner. And I think that she's going to feel empowered enough to be able to do it in the right way and really get some closure out of it.

[39:55] but I also feel like she's very motivated and I think she's hearing that this isn't so much about Jo, but about something larger in her life and in her relational patterns. And I am really excited to hear how that conversation goes.

[40:13] This is Dear Therapist, and we'll be back after a short break. *music* Support comes from WISE, the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around the globe. You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. Choose the WiseCard. You can spend in over 40 currencies with the exchange rate you'd usually see on Google, so you can stretch your travel budget. Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply.

[41:16] This is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, Good Taste is my business. And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are.

[41:53] liar listen on the iheart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts i don't really care you I'm Guy Winch. And I'm Laurie Gottlieb. And this is Dear Therapists. Well, let's listen to the voicemail. Hi, Guy and Laurie. It's Shreena. After we spoke, I did feel better. It made me realise that I have a lot of... unresolved childhood trauma that I need to work through and to that end I am seeing a therapist weekly to kind of really work through those sort of feelings that I've had and why I act the way that I do and seem to be drawn to emotionally unavailable men. So I think that that is definitely a positive, something I could definitely take away from our chat. I've also realised that sometimes...

[42:53] What you... want to do isn't healthy for you. So you need to make sure that you follow through with the healthy thing to do. So for example, I go backwards and forwards about wanting to have done. I'm at a place now where actually I don't feel. But before I was in a place where I wanted to get back together with Joe. But I realised now that my need was to stay mentally healthy, to stay emotionally healthy. And in order to do that, I need to... distance myself from him and realize okay what is the underlying issue here why do I feel the need to to put myself in that situation and that is another thing that I've learned that I find it really hard to sit with difficult emotions and that's something that

[43:42] I want to work on. So I'm trying to use this. As a learning tool. So. I'm... hopeful for the future and hopefully on the other side I will have a relationship that I deserve and that is something that I've... always wanted and have yet to receive. So, Yeah, thank you so much. I'm totally indebted to you both. And I really appreciate everything you did in that time we shared together.

[44:23] Quite a few different levels for me. Unexpected and really good. Good in some ways. She seemed to have learned... so much about the work that she needs to do that she wasn't aware of before and really separating out what is historical for her. What is something that went on in the past that is driving her behavior now and how much is really about joe who clearly was not compatible with with her. And, you know, I found it interesting that, you know, She didn't actually... Follow the suggestion that we asked her to do, which was that conversation with Joe about their, you know, really owning the fact that she sees that they were not compatible. So she doesn't feel like the victim, because I think she came to realize in our conversation that really this was not the right person for her as well. And to wish him well.

[45:17] Right. That was part of the advice. But what was interesting was, I think, as therapists, we see that sometimes we will suggest something to someone and they do something different that is equally useful for them.

[45:47] to hear. Yeah, I love the way she put it where she said, there's a difference between what I want in the moment and what I need for myself. And even this small little tidbit she threw in there, which I think is so, so valuable of like, yes, and I know I need to be able to sit with difficult emotions. Yes, you do. And good for you for remembering that. So I'm really hopeful that she's going to be able to go forward in a much more positive way and make these changes.

[46:17] universal. And what we talked to her about applies to so many people. And what I loved about Shreena was that she immediately said, you know what, this is really hard. My instinct and what would feel better in the moment is to do this thing that's not healthy for me and to just continue my old patterns. But I know I need to do something different in order to have a different outcome. And I think we can all learn something from that example.

[46:48] That brings us to the end of our show for this week. Thank you so much for listening. You can follow us both online. I'm at laurigotlieb.com, and you can follow me on Twitter at laurigotlieb1, or on Instagram at laurigotlieb underscore author. And I'm at guywinch.com. And on Instagram, at Guy Winch. If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, big or small, email us at lauriemguy at iheartmedia.com. Our executive producer is Christopher Haciotis. We're produced and edited by Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our podcast fairy godmother, Katie Couric. Next week, we'll talk about the challenges of blending families together when young children are involved. and say, oh, everything is going fine. Maybe today's going to be a good day. And I certainly don't know what to say when she's like, I hate you. Get away from me. Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.

[47:49] you Support comes from WISE, the smart way to spend in the currencies you need around the globe. You're savvy. You know a good deal on travel. Now it's time to get the real deal on your travel money. Outsmart sneaky exchange rate markups that often come with using everyday bank cards. Choose the WiseCard. You can spend in over 40 currencies with the exchange rate you'd usually see on Google, so you can stretch your travel budget. Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply.

[48:47] on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.